Speaker 1: Well, hello there, here we are, my friend, back for
Speaker 1: another awesome episode of love. Someone with the lailah where
Speaker 1: my aim, our aim is to inspire you, to inspire
Speaker 1: you to act upon that whisper in your heart, that
Speaker 1: little voice that's telling you to do something, do anything
Speaker 1: about a situation that has piqud your interest, that has
Speaker 1: touched your heart, your soul. Doesn't have to be a
Speaker 1: world crisis, doesn't have to be a national issue, doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be a state or citywide problem. Could be
Speaker 1: something in your neighborhood, could be something at the end
Speaker 1: of your street. It could be cleaning up an empty
Speaker 1: lot that's in your area. It just has to be
Speaker 1: something that will bless the life of one other person
Speaker 1: and one heart, that will have a positive and profound
Speaker 1: impact on the world. Who knows what the ripple effect
Speaker 1: of that single action that you undertake. Who knows what
Speaker 1: that might be. Years ago, more than four decades ago,
Speaker 1: two men, two brothers, Jerome Kanegi and Steve Kanegy, saw
Speaker 1: something in a young girl standing on a stage reciting
Speaker 1: the Gettysburg Address. Four score and seven years ago, our
Speaker 1: fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation conceived
Speaker 1: in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men
Speaker 1: are created equal. They heard this young girl, junior high
Speaker 1: school girl, reciting that, and they said, let's let's talk
Speaker 1: to her, folks, Let's find out if she would be
Speaker 1: interested in learning about radio. And because they took actions
Speaker 1: that changed that young girl's life and gave her a
Speaker 1: Sini haven, a place to show off, a place to
Speaker 1: develop her talent, my young girl is now talking to you.
Speaker 1: And because of that, I've been able to meet so
Speaker 1: many amazing people and interview so many wonderful people on
Speaker 1: so many topics. Because of that simple action that Jerome
Speaker 1: Kanegi and Steve Kanegi took, that chance that they took
Speaker 1: on investing their energy into me, I truly believe that
Speaker 1: every time we touch a single heart, that gesture will
Speaker 1: be ever widening, ever encompassing, spreading love to the furthest
Speaker 1: reaches of the globe, creating moments and movements of joy
Speaker 1: and hope, because that's what love does. Today's guest is
Speaker 1: a friend of mine, a person I actually track down.
Speaker 1: I hate to use the term stocked, but it kind
Speaker 1: of applies. I ran across a promotion for a documentary
Speaker 1: late one evening a weird little indie movie that was
Speaker 1: going to be playing in a small theater in my
Speaker 1: little town. The next day. I don't know how it
Speaker 1: came up in my social media feed, but it did,
Speaker 1: and I called some friends and I went to see
Speaker 1: this little indie movie. This documentary called The IF Project
Speaker 1: IF the IF Project, It was started birth by Seattle
Speaker 1: Police Detective Kim Bagooki. She is the co founder of
Speaker 1: the IF Project and it's affecting youth. It is transforming
Speaker 1: lives in a very real way. The IF Project. If
Speaker 1: you check out their website www. Dot the Ifproject dot com,
Speaker 1: you will find this description. We are a collaboration of
Speaker 1: law enforcement, currently and previously incarcerated adults, and community partners
Speaker 1: focused on intervention, prevention, and reduction in incarceration. Our work
Speaker 1: is built upon and inspired by people sharing their personal
Speaker 1: experiences surrounding the issues of incarceration. That project was based
Speaker 1: on this simple question, if there was something someone could
Speaker 1: have said or done that would have changed the path
Speaker 1: that led you here here being in prison, what would
Speaker 1: it have been? It is so awesome that I have
Speaker 1: Kim in the studio with me today. But before we
Speaker 1: get started, I got to take a minute here to
Speaker 1: thank the Home Depot for their sponsorship of this podcast.
Speaker 1: Every month, the Home Depot holds something called a do
Speaker 1: it Herself Workshop. It's always on the third Thursday of
Speaker 1: each month at half past six pm. You can set
Speaker 1: your watch to it. But more importantly, you can learn
Speaker 1: so much from attending these free workshops. If you are
Speaker 1: intimidated by power tools, if you walk out in the
Speaker 1: garage or the shed and you have no idea how
Speaker 1: to use that drill or how to change a drill bit,
Speaker 1: or you just get intimidated at the thought of using
Speaker 1: a hammer and nail, guess what The Home Depots do
Speaker 1: What her self workshops teach you how to do all
Speaker 1: those things. You can learn to use tools, you can
Speaker 1: learn how to put different colors together when you're painting.
Speaker 1: You can feel so empowered after visiting several of these workshops.
Speaker 1: I love them, the do it her Self Workshop, the
Speaker 1: Home Depot, more saving more doing with me in the
Speaker 1: studio today for our podcast is I think dynamic is
Speaker 1: the best word to describe you, Kim. You are always there,
Speaker 1: always connecting people and pieces together. You're like a You're
Speaker 1: like a weaver, you know, an artist that weaves things together.
Speaker 1: And you're always whenever I'm around here, you're weaving elements
Speaker 1: and people together to make the world a better place.
Speaker 1: Thank you. It's like in Africa when I go there,
Speaker 1: there are these people that weave the can take cloth,
Speaker 1: you know, the famous African West African can take cloth.
Speaker 1: And to watch them is to watch a dancer. It's
Speaker 1: amazing the way their hands and their feet work together
Speaker 1: in this beautiful rhythm. And the can take cloth tells
Speaker 1: a story. If you know how to read the can
Speaker 1: take cloth, you can read a tribe's history. You can
Speaker 1: read about somebody's marriage woven in the cloth. And in
Speaker 1: the same way you weave this story. You weave this
Speaker 1: cloth of lives together. And it's fun to be a
Speaker 1: part of that. And it's fun to watch you.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: You're amazing. So Kim you you are now a friend.
Speaker 1: But I had to work hard for this friendship.
Speaker 2: That's a funny story.
Speaker 1: Ever it is. It was very, very weird. I was
Speaker 1: on social media one night after my show and something
Speaker 1: popped up about a movie called The If Project. And
Speaker 1: I don't know how that ad got there. I don't
Speaker 1: know how I saw it. I don't know why it
Speaker 1: piqued my interest, but it was this little indie movie
Speaker 1: that was showing in my little town at this funky,
Speaker 1: weird little theater that's been closed and open and closed
Speaker 1: and open and closed and flooded and closed and open.
Speaker 1: And it was showing the next day in the middle
Speaker 1: of the day, like at noon or something crazy. And
Speaker 1: so I called my girlfriends and I said, I saw
Speaker 1: this ad for this movie. Who wants to go? And
Speaker 1: like half a dozen of them that I'm in, which
Speaker 1: is really weird because they all have lives and careers
Speaker 1: and families. So we show up at this theater and
Speaker 1: watch this profound movie called The If Project. And it broke.
Speaker 1: The movie broke, the real broke in the theater like
Speaker 1: two or three times, just like in the you know
Speaker 1: fifties where it like melts on the screen. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was, what was going on,
Speaker 1: but and I never did get to see the end
Speaker 1: of it then. But that little movie changed me. It
Speaker 1: changed my heart and it opened, I want to say,
Speaker 1: open my heart to realities that I think that I
Speaker 1: knew about. But it only scratched the surface of right
Speaker 1: and came home, did my radio show, looked up the
Speaker 1: movie online and found your name connected to it.
Speaker 2: And then you Facebook messaged me like four or five times.
Speaker 1: Like a dozen times.
Speaker 2: And I don't get to those messages often, but it
Speaker 2: was kind of funny. You go ahead and finish telling
Speaker 2: the story, because I'll start. I'll all laugh. I controlled.
Speaker 1: So I messaged you and I said, I saw this
Speaker 1: little movie today and your name's attached to it, and
Speaker 1: I'd like to learn more about the IF project. Nothing,
Speaker 1: no response, nothing. So I wait a few days, and
Speaker 1: first off, I want to see the end of the movie,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't find it anywhere. It wasn't at the time,
Speaker 1: it wasn't available online anywhere. So now I'm kind of
Speaker 1: getting frustrated and desperate, and so I'm writing you again. Hello,
Speaker 1: it's me, Delilah wrote you the other day, kind of
Speaker 1: wondering if I can learn more about the ZIF project. Nothing.
Speaker 2: Crickets.
Speaker 1: How long was it before you finally decided to answer me?
Speaker 2: I think I answered you on the third, third, or fourth. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I And I feel bad because I don't often get
Speaker 2: on those social media responses, especially they're just private messenger.
Speaker 2: And I said, oh, it's really nice, and I think
Speaker 2: I told you to go check the website out, like
Speaker 2: I had no idea who you were, and then you did.
Speaker 1: You were very polite, go look at our website, learn
Speaker 1: more information. And then I wrote back and I said, well,
Speaker 1: I think I could help the f project maybe get
Speaker 1: the word out there, and you're like, how could you help?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you said, well, you know I have
Speaker 2: a have a radio show, and I would just be
Speaker 2: interested in learning more. And this vision of you, I
Speaker 2: think you might have said. I had this vision of you,
Speaker 2: like hold up in a basement, which I am doing this,
Speaker 2: I do know a radio show for five people or something.
Speaker 1: You think I was some internet I don't know fan
Speaker 1: base of seven.
Speaker 2: No, I don't know what it was. And I was,
Speaker 2: and then you're like, no, I have like two hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty syndicated shows in the US, like after we'd
Speaker 2: had and I was like literally like Mike dropped for
Speaker 2: a second and was like the Delilah. I think that
Speaker 2: was my only response. And when you were like yes,
Speaker 2: then I started just cracking up and was intensely embarrassed
Speaker 2: that I had been like, oh no, just go to
Speaker 2: our website and have this vision of you hold up
Speaker 2: with like twelve cats doing some broadcasts.
Speaker 1: In your basement, and now that you've been to my
Speaker 1: basement and seen my twelve cats, yes, oh no, it's
Speaker 1: like exactly. But once we connected and I got to
Speaker 1: know you personally, I was even more impressed than I
Speaker 1: was just watching the movie, because you're the real deal.
Speaker 1: You don't just talk the talk, you walk the walk.
Speaker 1: And I really want to how can people, first off,
Speaker 1: anybody listening right now find the movie, the entire movie,
Speaker 1: The IF Project.
Speaker 2: So it's up on iTunes and it's just The IF
Speaker 2: Project documentary.
Speaker 1: And it's wonderful. How many years did it take from
Speaker 1: the beginning to the end?
Speaker 2: Oh well, well, IF was born in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: and we filmed for seven and a half years before
Speaker 2: the documentary was finished. Katheryn Horan, the producer and co founder,
Speaker 2: we were just going to film for a year and
Speaker 2: do a youth education piece, which we do have that
Speaker 2: as well in part of our programming, and she just
Speaker 2: kept rolling film for seven and a half years because
Speaker 2: the story is just kept, you know, blossoping and opening up,
Speaker 2: and we got connected to some of the principles and
Speaker 2: players in the movie. Really a lot, and some of
Speaker 2: them were going to be getting out, and so it
Speaker 2: just was an amazing seven and a half years of filming.
Speaker 2: I think we have like one hundred and thirty hours
Speaker 2: in the can that she distilled down to eighty eight minutes.
Speaker 1: That's incredible. I would love to see some of the
Speaker 1: other hours because I know the eighty eight minutes she
Speaker 1: picked were so powerful.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Hold on just a second, Kim, I am gonna uncuff
Speaker 1: you from the studio mic for a second so you
Speaker 1: can go get a drink of water, because there is so, so,
Speaker 1: so much more you need to tell me after we
Speaker 1: come back from hearing more from folks that make this
Speaker 1: podcast possible. Please welcome. I wish you could give her
Speaker 1: a round of applause. Kim Bagooki, co founder of the
Speaker 1: IF Project.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Start at the beginning, Kim, about the IF Project. You've
Speaker 1: been a police officer for how many years?
Speaker 2: Thirty one years?
Speaker 1: Thirty one years, and you were going into the woman's
Speaker 1: prison to mentor to what no.
Speaker 2: I was involved in a program called the West Side
Speaker 2: Story Project, and it got international attention because we actually
Speaker 2: use West Side Story, Broadway Theater and police to reach
Speaker 2: out to youth to have discussion around you know, using
Speaker 2: the vignettes when you're jet. You're jet to talk about
Speaker 2: gang violence, Officer Krepkey to talk about the juvenile justice system,
Speaker 2: you know, a couple things like that. And so Girl
Speaker 2: Scouts Beyond Bars, which is a great program. That's why
Speaker 2: I like to buy the cookies they have.
Speaker 1: We wait, stop right there. I got to say. Girl
Speaker 1: Scouts Beyond Bars is where young girls joined Scouting when
Speaker 1: their moms are incarcerated. They get to go in and
Speaker 1: spend time with mom doing projects, earning badges. Didn't I
Speaker 1: hear they had a camp, a sleepover or a camp bag.
Speaker 2: I've spent the night in prison one night, Yes, with
Speaker 2: the Girl Scouts. Yep.
Speaker 1: That is so cool. That is one of those small
Speaker 1: little pieces but life changing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think the thing for me is when
Speaker 2: they said this is who we are and what we'd
Speaker 2: like you to do. Would you work with our girls
Speaker 2: with the you know, similar format that we did with
Speaker 2: West Side Story, I was like absolutely, because what they
Speaker 2: were doing is they were continuing family unification, which I
Speaker 2: knew is going to be critically important for those girls
Speaker 2: when dealing with, you know, having a parent that's incarcerated,
Speaker 2: and I said, absolutely, I'll go in. But I'm absolutely
Speaker 2: I'll work with you the girls, but I want to
Speaker 2: go in and ask the mother's permission because I knew
Speaker 2: that those mothers were going to be calling home and
Speaker 2: I didn't want their child to go, oh the police
Speaker 2: were at troop meeting today and have the mom freak
Speaker 2: out about what I would have potentially or what the
Speaker 2: police would potentially said to the child about their mother
Speaker 2: because their mother was incarcerated. So I went down to
Speaker 2: w CCW Watchingtoncrustion Center for Women back in March of
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: I'm sad.
Speaker 2: I said hey, and they said, you know, arms crossed,
Speaker 2: sitting back what he basically would It was very chilly
Speaker 2: in the room. Let's just put it that way. But
Speaker 2: I think the thing that happening even before I started
Speaker 2: talking with them is I had some really intense misperceptions
Speaker 2: of what somebody that was incarcerated acted like, looked like,
Speaker 2: talk like. You know, for twenty years, I'd been putting
Speaker 2: people in handcuffs, not realizing the story behind or the
Speaker 2: person behind those handcuffs, And when I went into the prison,
Speaker 2: I was super nervous and I often say, you know,
Speaker 2: I feel like I was going to get shanked because
Speaker 2: I'd been watching way too much you know, reality TV,
Speaker 2: which since then I don't watch that stuff. But you know,
Speaker 2: I had to do a gut check when I walked
Speaker 2: in the door because these women just looked like people
Speaker 2: I would hang out with. Not I often say that
Speaker 2: I had remembered arresting for twenty years, so I had to.
Speaker 2: You know, I'd been in community police sing and thought, oh,
Speaker 2: I know all this. And I walked in and I
Speaker 2: was like, wow, I am. I still have a lot
Speaker 2: of work to do with my biases and prejudices that
Speaker 2: I had no idea I had. And they really opened
Speaker 2: my eyes to that in that split second. And then
Speaker 2: the conversation absolutely was chilly because I represented.
Speaker 1: Police officers would put them in jail.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and last time they saw us, they're probably getting
Speaker 2: take away from their kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So then I asked the question.
Speaker 1: You asked the question that has become life changing for thousands,
Speaker 1: probably tens of thousands of people, and it birthed the
Speaker 1: if project, which is.
Speaker 2: If there was something somebody could have said or done
Speaker 2: to change the path that led you here, what would
Speaker 2: it have been.
Speaker 1: So you asked that question to the women in prison,
Speaker 1: and one of them took the challenge.
Speaker 2: She did, And I think what's important is I didn't
Speaker 2: ask that question to sit here eleven years later. I
Speaker 2: asked the question to continue dialogue.
Speaker 1: And you asked the question because you sincerely wanted to know.
Speaker 1: But what happened, which is in the movie which I
Speaker 1: just love, who is a Hot Ticket sassy Pants, and
Speaker 1: hated you, hated the police, hated the police, not you personally,
Speaker 1: but what you represented. And she was very honest about
Speaker 1: that in the movie. Because she had been raised to
Speaker 1: not trust police officers and to hate people in authority,
Speaker 1: she took that challenge and ran with it.
Speaker 2: Yep. She actually asked the women to write the answer
Speaker 2: down to give to me so that we could share
Speaker 2: those answers, and children would not their children or other
Speaker 2: children would not have to follow in their footsteps to prison.
Speaker 1: And completely selfless, she wrote it down, and in the
Speaker 1: movie they show her handing you this stack of papers,
Speaker 1: and there was the answer. Yep, there was the answer
Speaker 1: to the question, which wasn't a sentence, but page after
Speaker 1: page after page, and then the IF project began. And
Speaker 1: I love that you brought in tutors to help the
Speaker 1: women who hadn't gotten an education to be able to
Speaker 1: write out their answer. I love that you brought in
Speaker 1: counselors who help them to tap into the answer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because nobody wakes up one day and goes I think
Speaker 1: I want to go to prison. I think I want
Speaker 1: to become, you know, a drug dealer. I think I
Speaker 1: want to kill somebody in a bad drug deal. Nobody
Speaker 1: wakes up one day and suddenly chooses that path.
Speaker 2: No name for flame. She's now our director of re
Speaker 2: entering Programming. She helped write the writing workshop with a
Speaker 2: lot of her expertise in mind on how to get
Speaker 2: somebody to the place to be able to answer that question.
Speaker 2: We've had women go through that writing workshop because that's
Speaker 2: what was created out of it, eight or nine times
Speaker 2: and keep going just a little bit, a little bit more,
Speaker 2: a little bit back, a little bit deeper. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: been it's been transformational.
Speaker 1: How many different prisons now is the IF project in?
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea?
Speaker 2: I think probably we're just in the process of getting
Speaker 2: in. In the state of California, in all of four women's prisons,
Speaker 2: there's significantly less women's prisons in the country. Visited Connecticut
Speaker 2: last week. We've done some work in Colorado, We've been
Speaker 2: in all.
Speaker 1: That you're in men's prisons now too.
Speaker 2: We've done writing workshops and men's prisons. Most of our
Speaker 2: programming we have really focused on females because I really
Speaker 2: do believe with the things that we've learned that they
Speaker 2: are the gatekeepers for us to understand and end mass
Speaker 2: incarceration in our country. Because eighty five percent of women
Speaker 2: that are incarcerated or mothers, So just.
Speaker 1: Think about it, say that one more time.
Speaker 2: Eighty five percent of women that are incarcerated or mothers.
Speaker 1: And if you are a child of a mom who's
Speaker 1: made bad choices and is incarcerated, where do you end up?
Speaker 2: Well, there's not you know, the data isn't give us
Speaker 2: exact numbers, but you're risk for dropping out of school,
Speaker 2: juvenile delinquency, following in a parent's footstep, experiencing poverty is
Speaker 2: much higher than a child that actually has one or
Speaker 2: two parents at home. So we know that that that
Speaker 2: potentially is our next generation of incarceration. And not to
Speaker 2: discount having a father incarcerated or anything like that, but
Speaker 2: usually especially when a woman gets out of prison, it's like,
Speaker 2: here's your kids. When a guy gets out of prison,
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily the same thing. So there's so much
Speaker 2: going on for future generations and a legacy of incarceration
Speaker 2: with females.
Speaker 1: So women goes to prison five, six, seven, eight years,
Speaker 1: gets out, here's your kid, and there's been no relationship
Speaker 1: established or continued.
Speaker 2: Well, that's why it's important for family unification program and
Speaker 2: that's why girl Scouts be on bars. Stuff like that
Speaker 2: is important. And also while they're in prison. The sad
Speaker 2: part is sometimes it is that interruption where they realize, oh,
Speaker 2: I can go to school and get an education, which
Speaker 2: means when they get out there actually can make more
Speaker 2: money to support a family and not have to make
Speaker 2: bad decisions or get into bad relationships in order to
Speaker 2: continue raising their children and not end up back in poverty. Again,
Speaker 2: poverty is the number one indicator in the world for
Speaker 2: incarceration and to end in this country as well.
Speaker 1: So if you're raised in poverty, if your parents are impoverished,
Speaker 1: one or both, your chances of ending up incarcerated how
Speaker 1: much high.
Speaker 2: Or you I don't know, I don't know. I don't
Speaker 2: have the statistical numbers, but your parents are as well.
Speaker 2: Because what happens is you can you end up in
Speaker 2: survival mode. You and I would do the same thing
Speaker 2: if we needed to survive. What would you do to
Speaker 2: take care of your kids? And sometimes some of the.
Speaker 1: Who says I haven't already Honestly, I'll be real honest
Speaker 1: here there, but for the grace of God go I
Speaker 1: because when I was younger, my addiction was to abusive men.
Speaker 1: I tried to fix men who didn't want to be fixed.
Speaker 1: And I watched the movie and I related to so
Speaker 1: many women that were incarcerated because just like me, they
Speaker 1: fell in love with somebody who didn't want to be fixed.
Speaker 1: Only they didn't see the off ramp to get out
Speaker 1: of that relationship. Yep, you know. I was so fortunate
Speaker 1: and so blessed with my first marriage that when my
Speaker 1: son was born, my son was the off ramp. I said,
Speaker 1: I cannot put him through this. Had I not had
Speaker 1: a child, who knows what choices I may have made
Speaker 1: because I was involved with somebody who was addicted.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I didn't have a chemical dependency. I had a dependency
Speaker 1: upon someone who did well.
Speaker 2: The interesting thing too, that we don't take a look
Speaker 2: at it. I don't think nearly enough in this country
Speaker 2: is being gender responsive. Meaning when we're dealing in the
Speaker 2: incarceration world, women have very different needs in corrections and
Speaker 2: even in the criminal justice system than men do. And
Speaker 2: the four factors that lead women to incarceration and none
Speaker 2: of these these top four lead men to incarceration. They're
Speaker 2: completely different. Unhealthy relationships number one, chemical dependency issue, number
Speaker 2: two anxious depressive symptom. And they also are saying that
Speaker 2: about eighty percent of women incarser to have a diagnosable
Speaker 2: mental health illness.
Speaker 1: That's new soccer new.
Speaker 2: World Health organization came out with that. And then socioeconomic marginality. Well,
Speaker 2: the women get paid, yeah, and women get paid less
Speaker 2: than men. So if you think about that factor in itself,
Speaker 2: a woman gets arrested or ends up in prison or
Speaker 2: needs to bail out, they don't have the money to
Speaker 2: get themselves out of prison, and their children suffer. So
Speaker 2: the collateral consequences for putting a woman in prison are
Speaker 2: significantly different than putting a man in prison. Again, not
Speaker 2: discounting you know, males that are incarcerated and especially ones
Speaker 2: that are fathers, but it really does affect that women
Speaker 2: are affected differently and we need to be dealing with
Speaker 2: them and doing programming and really understanding them much differently.
Speaker 2: And you know, back to your you know, earlier thing,
Speaker 2: one in three people in our country now have a record.
Speaker 2: Think about that. So, you know, and when you said
Speaker 2: I came that close, like to making a bad choice,
Speaker 2: there's people doing five, ten, fifteen, twenty years from that
Speaker 2: millisecond of making a bad choice. There was a kid
Speaker 2: at Denny Detention Facility fifteen years old, never forget this,
Speaker 2: very first time he'd been incarcerated, and we were up
Speaker 2: there doing our youth program and he said, Kim, I
Speaker 2: really wish somebody would have told me ten seconds would
Speaker 2: cost me ten years. Fifteen years old, he's going to
Speaker 2: do ten years. Not And let me be very clear,
Speaker 2: not discounting what he did and the victims out there,
Speaker 2: but trying to you know, part of IF's thing is
Speaker 2: what led you, What was the path or the reasons
Speaker 2: that led you to actually taking action to the incident
Speaker 2: that led to your incarceration. If we can understand the
Speaker 2: pathways that lead to incarceration and figure out where those
Speaker 2: need to be healed up or short up or more
Speaker 2: resources put towards. Then our hope is that we have
Speaker 2: less violence, less victims, and we can understand what actually
Speaker 2: leads somebody to incarceration, not the immediacy around the crime,
Speaker 2: it's what actually built that road that led there. And
Speaker 2: sometimes it is literally a bad choice.
Speaker 1: A lot of times it is a bad choice, one
Speaker 1: bad choice, or a series of small bad choices that
Speaker 1: leads to a big bad choice. You know, when I
Speaker 1: was a teenager, my girlfriends and I helped ourselves to
Speaker 1: did's mom's car and went to the beach at night
Speaker 1: and ran out of gas, thank god, and a very
Speaker 1: nice police officer escort at his home. But take that
Speaker 1: into a big city, take that into an environment where
Speaker 1: their folks weren't waiting at the door for them and
Speaker 1: giving them a lesson, and those little choices add up
Speaker 1: to one big choice that leads to incarceration or death.
Speaker 2: And exactly, and there's a there's an expense to incarceration.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's our tax dollars in most states is
Speaker 2: what pays for people to be incarcerated. So you know,
Speaker 2: one of the hardest things when somebody gets out of
Speaker 2: prison is to find housing or job. So lots of
Speaker 2: times people, you know, when they get caught up in that,
Speaker 2: you know, lock them up and kind of throw away
Speaker 2: the key mentality. I'm like, well, how do you want
Speaker 2: your money spent? Do you want your dollars, your tax
Speaker 2: dollars spent on keeping somebody locked up and not prepared
Speaker 2: to come home, or do you want to offer them
Speaker 2: an opportunity when they get out to get a job,
Speaker 2: so that you're actually writing a check for them to
Speaker 2: put back into the economy and the system, as opposed
Speaker 2: to writing tax checks to keep them incarcerated.
Speaker 1: And like you said, at eighty five or eighty seven
Speaker 1: percent of women locked up or moms, you're also paying
Speaker 1: for foster care. You're also paying for the damage that
Speaker 1: will be done when the children drop out of high school,
Speaker 1: drop you know, and don't make it. So there's a
Speaker 1: financial tag associated to all that.
Speaker 2: And it's an emotional teg. I mean, the number one
Speaker 2: answer to the IF project, we probably have over three
Speaker 2: thousand from women men in juveniles are incurserent is no
Speaker 2: positive adult role model, not feeling like somebody.
Speaker 1: Will go back to back back back. Okay, so say that,
Speaker 1: state the question again, what the IF project is founded on?
Speaker 2: If there was something somebody could have said or done
Speaker 2: to change the path that led you here. What would
Speaker 2: it have been.
Speaker 1: If somebody could have said something, done something, And the
Speaker 1: answer to over three thousand of those questions.
Speaker 2: The number one answer is no positive adult role model.
Speaker 2: So no adult said I love you, I care, what
Speaker 2: do you need?
Speaker 1: You're worth it?
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: I'm so blessed when I think about how many times
Speaker 1: my mom told me, thousands upon thousands upon thousands, I
Speaker 1: couldn't count them, that she loved me. Yeah, the worth
Speaker 1: of that. I try to tell my kids every single
Speaker 1: day before they leave the house, I say, I love you.
Speaker 1: Look at me, look at me, look at me.
Speaker 2: I put your gadget down, look at me.
Speaker 1: I love you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's I think it's interesting
Speaker 2: these days too, because we are seeing kids I feel
Speaker 2: like disconnected in knowing how to socially interact eye to eye,
Speaker 2: heart to heart. You know, they're on their phones, texting
Speaker 2: and emojis and all these kinds of things that are.
Speaker 1: Misconstrued social media, and you know, we're.
Speaker 2: A part of it. I mean, that's how we get
Speaker 2: our message out too. But like we also are like, Okay,
Speaker 2: when's the last time you sat down with your kid,
Speaker 2: phones away yours as well, get off you know, working
Speaker 2: so you can get the fifty five inches square you know,
Speaker 2: TV or whatever and sit and have a talk with
Speaker 2: your children. Because if we lose the ability to communicate,
Speaker 2: and these kids lose the ability to communicate eyed eye
Speaker 2: and heart to heart, I think we're headed for some
Speaker 2: really interesting, bad and sad times because there's a disconnection
Speaker 2: that will occur.
Speaker 1: It is occurring, yep. It is occurring. That people say, delightly,
Speaker 1: have been hosting your radio show so many years, what's
Speaker 1: the biggest change you have seen in your callers? And
Speaker 1: even though we have more ways, more technology to connect
Speaker 1: my listeners, my callers are lonelier and feel more isolated
Speaker 1: than ever before in all the years I've been doing
Speaker 1: this show. That's the common thread that runs out through
Speaker 1: so many calls, deep longing for connection and to feel
Speaker 1: like you belong.
Speaker 2: Yep, exactly.
Speaker 1: Don't you think that's why? I think that's why gangs flourish.
Speaker 2: That's what kids will tell us, That's what people will
Speaker 2: tell us if you're not getting it at home. You know,
Speaker 2: oftentimes too, I'll look at parents and go, you know,
Speaker 2: where is your kid, because if you're not there mentoring
Speaker 2: your kid or being a parent, your kid is going
Speaker 2: to go learn from somebody else, from somebody else, and
Speaker 2: who is that person they're learning from? And if you're
Speaker 2: not there, I mean, it is really sad and tragic
Speaker 2: sometimes when we have kids that are they're born into
Speaker 2: the life yep, you know, and it's how do you
Speaker 2: get them to see something different, an opportunity, you know,
Speaker 2: and think out of the box and dream bigger than
Speaker 2: the neighborhood they grew up in.
Speaker 1: That's why, uh, that's why Point Hope was born. You know.
Speaker 1: We want to be a voice for forgotten children. We
Speaker 1: want to be the voice that says, I love you,
Speaker 1: there's a better way, before they age out, before they
Speaker 1: hit the street, before they end up incarcerated, before they
Speaker 1: end up in poverty. We want to be that voice
Speaker 1: to say you have great worth.
Speaker 2: Oh and thank god you're there doing that, Delilah. I
Speaker 2: mean that's important, you know. Back to what you talked
Speaker 2: about people feeling lonely. I mean, I don't know how
Speaker 2: long you've been on the.
Speaker 1: Air, longer than you've been a cop.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we'll just and you look fabulous by the way.
Speaker 2: Thank you, But it's true, like I'm certain because I
Speaker 2: remember and I have listened to you for years. There
Speaker 2: is a connection that you give people which is rare
Speaker 2: as well from the airwaves, not even the eyeed aa,
Speaker 2: you don't need it. It's your voice. It's something that's
Speaker 2: if you think about how long you've been on it's
Speaker 2: permeated in most of our systems to know that we're
Speaker 2: loved even by somebody, or we can connect to somebody
Speaker 2: over the air with this show that you have that
Speaker 2: we're not used to having. That doesn't exist anymore. It's
Speaker 2: the next person, the next thing. I mean, we're on
Speaker 2: to like there's no consistency. So I just want to
Speaker 2: thank you for always being consistent in being there for
Speaker 2: people professionally and personally.
Speaker 1: Thank you. My husband said the other day we took
Speaker 1: how many kids eight kids, nine kids on a road trip?
Speaker 1: Last year? There was like seventeen. So this year was
Speaker 1: much more mellow. And he looked at me, he says,
Speaker 1: is there ever going to come a day that we
Speaker 1: just go away the two of us without children in tow?
Speaker 1: And I said, well, we need to do that for
Speaker 1: us to refinish our battery. You know, recharge our batteries.
Speaker 1: We do need to set aside time for that. But
Speaker 1: I said, as far as the epic road trips go now,
Speaker 1: because there is all there are always going to be
Speaker 1: children who need to be mentored and loved, and like
Speaker 1: you said, if they're not getting it from home, where
Speaker 1: are they getting it?
Speaker 2: And they will remember those experiences when they get older,
Speaker 2: and hopefully they will do that with their children as well.
Speaker 2: And get off in front of the TV in the
Speaker 2: screen time and actually go see our country or another hutry, get.
Speaker 1: In the wall, play in the water, get it out
Speaker 1: in the ladde of the city. Yeah, go look at
Speaker 1: a tree that's you know, six hundred seven hundred, a
Speaker 1: thousand years old.
Speaker 2: I was out at this place that I just got
Speaker 2: and it was super quiet. It's out, it's about forty
Speaker 2: five minutes in the city, and some dirt had just
Speaker 2: been killed under and I forgot what dirt smelled like.
Speaker 2: And I remember just sitting there and it just had
Speaker 2: rained a little bit and it was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: Like there are some kids that don't even have that experience.
Speaker 2: They have concrete jungles that they grow up in. How
Speaker 2: do we get them to think out of those neighborhoods.
Speaker 1: Well, we get them involved with scouting, or we get
Speaker 1: them involved with Point Hope, or we get them involved
Speaker 1: with something. If somebody is listening to this podcast, Kim,
Speaker 1: and they want to get involved with the IF project.
Speaker 1: If somebody says, you know what, my my older brother
Speaker 1: went to prison, or I have an aunt that spent
Speaker 1: time in prison, or my daughter is doing Heroin right
Speaker 1: now and she's on that rejectory to go to prison.
Speaker 1: If somebody is listening and says, I don't know what
Speaker 1: I can do, what can I do? How can they
Speaker 1: get involved with the IF project? And what can they do?
Speaker 2: Well, don't Facebook messenger me because I probably won't answer.
Speaker 2: But I mean, I think I can.
Speaker 1: See this, Oprah. Kim, Hi, I just saw your movie.
Speaker 1: Like to help you out, Oprah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think go to the website and see
Speaker 2: what we're doing. I think there is a significant importance
Speaker 2: when you're working with people because we're not in every
Speaker 2: state we're doing. You know, it's interesting, we're doing some
Speaker 2: work in Tennessee right now. There's officer Officer Lamb and
Speaker 2: Officer and Ryd are doing amazing work. And in Murphysboro,
Speaker 2: and I you know, I've been communicating with one of
Speaker 2: the people they're working with, and thank god there's officers
Speaker 2: out there that want to do this kind of work.
Speaker 1: I maybe maybe that's that's something we could appeal to
Speaker 1: right now. Say, if you are in law enforcement, you
Speaker 1: don't even have to be an officer, If you're a judge,
Speaker 1: if you're a corrections officer, and you want to start
Speaker 1: the IF Project in your community, first off, watch the movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It'll blow your mind. And then go to the website
Speaker 1: and contact us.
Speaker 2: And I think the thing that but.
Speaker 1: Not private message, Kim, don't don't do that.
Speaker 2: You can do I'm at theF project dot com. But
Speaker 2: I yeah, the social media stuff. I'm still having a
Speaker 2: hard time keeping up.
Speaker 1: With any teenager. I know, I have my teenagers helping
Speaker 1: me out all the time.
Speaker 2: I have my team.
Speaker 1: How do I get this picture to go there? Like,
Speaker 1: oh geez, mom, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think my price secure old niece could do that.
Speaker 2: But I would also say, you know, the importance of
Speaker 2: the IF project is realizing people have stories, and when
Speaker 2: you have, when your story has worth and you feel
Speaker 2: like you have a voice, you feel like you matter,
Speaker 2: and we all have stories, and it's really important to
Speaker 2: understand and listen to people's stories. And I think what's
Speaker 2: made IF successful is that these women and men and
Speaker 2: juveniles have decided to be brave and tell their story
Speaker 2: and in doing so the connection that it's made hard
Speaker 2: to heart with not just them, but people that maybe
Speaker 2: haven't been incarcerated but can relate to my gosh, my
Speaker 2: upbringing was like that, or my brother's incarcerated and that's
Speaker 2: his story, you know, and the importance of like, people
Speaker 2: can change your lives, they can turn around the reentry
Speaker 2: work we do. Like we were able to show that,
Speaker 2: you know, and go from like when it started to
Speaker 2: the incarceration to the tipping point of when they decided
Speaker 2: to change their lives and how they're successful in community.
Speaker 2: So it's disbanding the type the label of felon. Like
Speaker 2: for me with the IF project, I want to disband
Speaker 2: the label of in perception of police officer. We've done
Speaker 2: some damage in this country, unfortunately in my profession, has
Speaker 2: and how do we repair these fractured communities? And part
Speaker 2: of it is really understanding what's created communities and what's
Speaker 2: created problems in communities, and we don't do that without
Speaker 2: understanding the stories that have led to these issues. And
Speaker 2: so story is it's powerful to great stories.
Speaker 1: I've got stories, and that's what I do at night,
Speaker 1: is I let people. I give people a place to
Speaker 1: tell their stories. That's why I'm so happy about our
Speaker 1: podcast because we can get in depth and hear more
Speaker 1: of the story. So another part of the IF project
Speaker 1: I want to touch on, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: I'm even allowed to say this. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I saw as a way to help is to
Speaker 1: provide opportunities for women as they transition out of incarceration
Speaker 1: back into the community. They need jobs, yes, they need homes,
Speaker 1: they need cars, they need transportation, they need to rebuild
Speaker 1: from ground zero. So if you're getting out of prison,
Speaker 1: you can't go apply for a loan on a car,
Speaker 1: or you can't a lot of times even get into
Speaker 1: an apartment. So after I met you, you said, you
Speaker 1: know what, there's this woman that's getting out who has
Speaker 1: a passion for music. Yes, she's talented, she's smart, she's creative,
Speaker 1: she sings in the documentary. She does sing in the
Speaker 1: document and she's now one of my producers. Yes she is,
Speaker 1: and she is wonderful. And there were some people that
Speaker 1: were a little nervous. I think about my decision to
Speaker 1: give this person a chance. Thank god, my producer Jane
Speaker 1: did not hesitate. She did not even hesitate. She's like,
Speaker 1: I'm all in. I am all in, And I think
Speaker 1: that that person. I don't know if she's going to
Speaker 1: stay with us a long time or transition and get
Speaker 1: into what she really wants to do, which is producing
Speaker 1: and writing and singing. But I already feel like she's
Speaker 1: a part of my family, you know, a part of
Speaker 1: my heart. And there are so many men and women
Speaker 1: who need that opportunity.
Speaker 2: Yep, they need somebody to just give them a chance,
Speaker 2: because truthfully, they end up at times becoming the best
Speaker 2: employee you will have because you gave them a chance
Speaker 2: to and nobody else will. And how are we supposed
Speaker 2: to reduce recidivism which means you go back to prison.
Speaker 2: In most places within three years, it's at seventy percent.
Speaker 2: So think about that. We have ninety five percent of
Speaker 2: people that are in prison coming home. We have seventy
Speaker 2: percent going back in the next three years. It's a
Speaker 2: million dollar business to keep this cycle going. If you
Speaker 2: get out of prison and you don't have opportunity. Back
Speaker 2: to what we talked about, you will go into what's
Speaker 2: familiar in order to survive and probably end up back inside,
Speaker 2: thus creating potentially more victims' As a it's an ugly cycle.
Speaker 2: And housing is enormous and a job as well as enormous,
Speaker 2: and you know, that helps build self esteem, It helps
Speaker 2: you put money back into the economy. If you're a
Speaker 2: woman that helps you take care of your kids, and
Speaker 2: your kids get to see you turn it around, it's huge.
Speaker 2: And what you've done for her is enormous. I knew
Speaker 2: that if she could get in the door, she was
Speaker 2: gonna blow you away. So I am taking great joy
Speaker 2: and watching this happen.
Speaker 1: You were so you were so cute. You're like, I
Speaker 1: can't professionally say this can encourage this, but I know
Speaker 1: somebody who really has a lot of talent.
Speaker 2: Well, and I would have done both of those because
Speaker 2: I knew that we knew her for she grew up
Speaker 2: with IF inside the prison and she's been there with
Speaker 2: us from the beginning, so it was an easy handoff
Speaker 2: for me, you know, And I think it's important if
Speaker 2: people are going to hire somebody, do your due diligence.
Speaker 2: But this, you know, banned the box is important, but
Speaker 2: you know, at some point you're gonna have to explain
Speaker 2: what happened. And when you think of also banned the
Speaker 2: box doesn't mean oh, they're a felon. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of different felonies. I don't know the numbers, but it's
Speaker 2: like hundreds of different felonies. If you can't hire for
Speaker 2: this these group of felonies, would you consider hiring for these?
Speaker 2: I mean, we've got to expand the way that we're
Speaker 2: getting people back into the workplace and how we're welcoming
Speaker 2: them back home because they serve their time, you know,
Speaker 2: and there's I still have my issues with some of
Speaker 2: the offenses that exist out there, you know, sex crimes
Speaker 2: and anything related to children. That's the thing that I
Speaker 2: still have to wrap my head around. But they are
Speaker 2: coming home and they need we need to figure out
Speaker 2: where they can actually go be.
Speaker 1: Where they can use their gifts and talent.
Speaker 2: And community is protected if necessary. You know, I'm a
Speaker 2: police officer. You know, we're supposed to serve and protect.
Speaker 1: And a very good one at that.
Speaker 2: Thanks you because a handcuffed you earlier.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because my husband's former police my
Speaker 1: son loves his career as a police officer. And Paul's
Speaker 1: my husband's second oldest daughter, so my stepdaughter, she and
Speaker 1: her fiance are both law enforcement. So we bleed blue.
Speaker 1: I mean we bleed blue. And yet all those people
Speaker 1: that I just mentioned care about the story, the backstory,
Speaker 1: maybe too much. My husband got out of law enforcement
Speaker 1: because he had to answer a call for a little
Speaker 1: boy that had been abused by his stepdad and he
Speaker 1: couldn't do it, and he knew he was going to
Speaker 1: cross the line, so before he crossed the line, he
Speaker 1: changed his career. But all of them respect the story
Speaker 1: and the people. I've gone with my son on ride
Speaker 1: alongs and he connects with the people sitting in the
Speaker 1: back of his car all the time, sings with them,
Speaker 1: and you know, laughs with them and jokes with them.
Speaker 1: I think that is the rule, not the exception. But unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the bad the people that don't care about the story
Speaker 1: and don't care about the person, the damage that it's
Speaker 1: done has has hurt everybody.
Speaker 2: One bad situation, media getting a hold of it can
Speaker 2: destroy you know, decades or years or even a new
Speaker 2: officer's you know, first couple of months of the work
Speaker 2: that they're doing, it can be devastating. You know, my
Speaker 2: friend Brandy Carlisle often says, you know, the people that
Speaker 2: are incarcerated there, they were kids, They were somebody's children
Speaker 2: at one point. Like what happened in the system and
Speaker 2: where did we as a system fail those children that
Speaker 2: they ended up becoming these adults. And I think that
Speaker 2: that is really you know, part of what we need
Speaker 2: to take a hard look at, too, is what is
Speaker 2: going on in these children's lives in elementary school. You know,
Speaker 2: we're starting to look at the age ten now where
Speaker 2: things are really starting to change, and you know, you
Speaker 2: raised children. Those first five to six years are incredibly important.
Speaker 2: But where are we as adults really making sure that
Speaker 2: the children are taken care of.
Speaker 1: I talked to a woman named Hattie Mitchell who started
Speaker 1: a project in California called the Crete Institute because ever
Speaker 1: since she was a kid, she's had a heart for
Speaker 1: the homeless. But she did her due diligence, and she
Speaker 1: went to college and she did internships and she got
Speaker 1: jobs in the system because she saw that in order
Speaker 1: to change the environment or the whole culture, she had
Speaker 1: to know it from the inside out and she had
Speaker 1: to change the whole system. So she started this Crete
Speaker 1: Institute for kids who are homeless whose parents are homeless,
Speaker 1: and she doesn't just educate the children, she involves the
Speaker 1: entire family. And she's gotten grants since she's gotten supports,
Speaker 1: and they help with drug addiction, alcoholism, with finding a
Speaker 1: safe place to live. She builds community and now kids
Speaker 1: who are not homeless are applying, parents are applying for
Speaker 1: their kids to go to the school well, because the
Speaker 1: level of education and the level of compassion and community
Speaker 1: building is just amazing. And if we could replicate that
Speaker 1: model throughout the country in every major city, if we
Speaker 1: could have the Crete School and the if Project, we
Speaker 1: really could change things. We could turn the tide, we
Speaker 1: could turn the Titanic around. But it's going to take
Speaker 1: everybody caring and working together.
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, and I think that back
Speaker 2: to our earlier conversation too. With technology, I think we're
Speaker 2: forgetting the wei and we're really stuck in the eye.
Speaker 2: And in order to do the work and get it done,
Speaker 2: it's a lot about collaborating, and it's about sometimes it's
Speaker 2: working with people you do not want to work with.
Speaker 2: But they are experts in an area that you are not,
Speaker 2: you know, and if their heart is in the right place,
Speaker 2: and I think that's really critically important that somebody's heart
Speaker 2: needs to be in the right place to do this
Speaker 2: kind of work. It's not about fame. It's not about
Speaker 2: newspaper articles, it's not about podcasts, you know, it's not
Speaker 2: about movies. It's about, like, what can we collectively do
Speaker 2: to change a world that we are losing a lot
Speaker 2: of love and compassion and we see it on a
Speaker 2: daily basis. And you know, officers on a daily basis
Speaker 2: see the worst of the worst twenty four to seven.
Speaker 2: And while we're seeing the worst of the worst twenty
Speaker 2: four seven, we're also getting told that we're doing a
Speaker 2: bad job, like there's not a lot of uplifting. Yeah,
Speaker 2: police officers could be a big part of the change
Speaker 2: because they're a community. You could have them come in
Speaker 2: and tell their stories. Just standing side by side with
Speaker 2: somebody that's been homeless, they might have a similar story
Speaker 2: and next to somebody that's been incursorated's similar story. Common denominator.
Speaker 2: We're all human beings.
Speaker 1: We did a project called Paint the Town that we've
Speaker 1: done for years and in one of the communities that
Speaker 1: we went to, a AA group made up of former prisoners.
Speaker 1: There is a AA fellowship for inmates and when they
Speaker 1: got out, they continued the fellowship, and so ninety percent
Speaker 1: of the people who go to this particular AA fellowship
Speaker 1: are former incarcerated felons. They chose as part of paint
Speaker 1: the town. We go into a community and paint a
Speaker 1: downtown section, ten fifty buildings, and we have partners like
Speaker 1: Home Depot that donate the paint, or the Green frog
Speaker 1: Tape donates, you know, thousands of miles of frog tape
Speaker 1: and it's really cool. But in this one community that
Speaker 1: we were at, the prison fellowship AA group, the former
Speaker 1: incarcerated AA members now sober chose to paint the police department.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, and.
Speaker 1: The officer showed up to help too. I cried when
Speaker 1: I stood there watching this community come together, laughing, painting,
Speaker 1: cracking up, eating barbecue together. I'm like, this is a miracle.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that is where you create community.
Speaker 1: We need more of that and less of this deviceive
Speaker 1: nonsense that you see everywhere you look. That us and
Speaker 1: then mentality, we got to get rid of that. And
Speaker 1: remember we're all on this planet together, and you know,
Speaker 1: as simple as if we lose the bees, we lose
Speaker 1: our food. If we lose each other, we lose everything.
Speaker 1: So I want to encourage people to download, to go
Speaker 1: find the movie, the f Project, and to get involved
Speaker 1: in your community, whatever that looks like.
Speaker 2: Yes, Kim, thank you, thank you for having me Doila,