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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast. You can't

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Speaker 1: predict any ofthing. The meat Eater Podcast is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging

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Speaker 1: deer stands, or scouting for el First Light has performance

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Speaker 1: apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it

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Speaker 1: out at first light dot com, f I R S

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Speaker 1: T L I t E dot com. Hey Steve, calling

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Speaker 1: in from Alaska. I'm here to announce that the latest

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Speaker 1: volume of me Eaters Campfire Stories is available now. This

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Speaker 1: volume is called Discoveries, Revelations and Near Misses. So the

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Speaker 1: volume is a little twist on our normal format, like

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Speaker 1: it includes all of those uh your death escapes in

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Speaker 1: the wild that really define our for other two volumes

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Speaker 1: of Meat Eaters Campfire Stories, but this includes something added

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Speaker 1: and special, which is a few stories about life changing

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Speaker 1: discoveries and revelations in the wild. The one you're gonna

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Speaker 1: hear at the end of this podcast involves a guy

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Speaker 1: whose friends refer to him as black Cloud Bob because

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Speaker 1: this guy has a cloud of bad luck that follows him.

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Speaker 1: And this story you're gonna hear is like a terrible

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Speaker 1: near death experience that kind of bleeds into another terrible

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Speaker 1: near death experience to make sort of like a duplex

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Speaker 1: of near death experiences. It's a horrendous story and it's

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Speaker 1: at the end of the podcast. You'll listen to that.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoy, you can go anywhere audio books are

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Speaker 1: sold and get your latest volume of Meat Eaters Campfire Stories.

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy. All right. We're recording from the

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Speaker 1: Meat Eater Flagship store in downtown bos Of, Montana, and

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Speaker 1: I am right below the Buffalo skull that now has

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Speaker 1: its sign stick finger here. People have been sticking their

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Speaker 1: finger in that hole mark have you I have not yet.

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Speaker 2: You're worried it's gonna get all greasy and dirty there, No.

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Speaker 1: What I would like to do is make like a

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Speaker 1: I'd like to well, I don't even want to tell

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Speaker 1: you what I'd like to do. I'd like to build

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Speaker 1: in a little surprise, but stick your finger in that hole.

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Speaker 1: People come by, they send pictures of themselves with their

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Speaker 1: finger in that hole. Uh. That and all kinds of

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Speaker 1: other oddities and great products down here at the Meat

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Speaker 1: Eater Flagship Store downtown bows Of Montana where we are

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Speaker 1: recording right now, come on down and say hi. Also

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Speaker 1: major importance, if you like to watch podcasts from our

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Speaker 1: podcast network on YouTube, you have to do something. We're

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Speaker 1: moving all of these all of our podcast videos are

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Speaker 1: moving to a new YouTube channel which is called very

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Speaker 1: simple me eater Podcast Network. So if you subscribe to

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Speaker 1: the me eater YouTube channel, you will no longer be

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Speaker 1: seeing our podcast videos popping up. You got to go

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Speaker 1: to this new channel which is all podcast video going

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Speaker 1: forward on the new channel. So just take a second

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Speaker 1: right now, go to YouTube search me Eater Podcast Network,

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Speaker 1: click subscribe and you will then be served all of

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Speaker 1: our podcast videos there and you won't miss anything. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're so late on discussing well, first off, I'm joined

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Speaker 1: by Brody cal Mark Kenyon and doctor Randall Crinz here,

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Speaker 1: but she doesn't say much. We're so late on talking

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Speaker 1: about it because I meant to talk about it, that

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Speaker 1: we got to talk about it now for a minute.

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Speaker 1: That we're so late on talking about it. All the flurry,

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Speaker 1: the flurry of news about the Colorado deer hunters. Two

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Speaker 1: old timers that two old timers that died of Creussfield

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Speaker 1: Jacobs yes, and some researcher who it turns out, it

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Speaker 1: was not really pointed out that these two guys hunted

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Speaker 1: deer together were consumers of deer in Colorado, and then

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Speaker 1: happened to developed yak of kreutz Felt and he was saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: heads up, it's they deer hunted. There was the possibility

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Speaker 1: that they got this disease from eating deer. I want

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Speaker 1: to being that was quite irresponsible thing to pump out there.

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Speaker 1: You got how much you guys know about this. I'm

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Speaker 1: the only one knows about that about it?

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, yeah, I think totally tracking. You're just on

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Speaker 3: a roll. You haven't messed anything up too bad.

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Speaker 1: Well, now I gotta jump into I gotta jump in

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Speaker 1: and find some stuff. Well, I'll say that the one

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Speaker 1: building the thing that happened here was that he made

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Speaker 1: this little bit of conjecture which then got picked up

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Speaker 1: as a sound bite across the media outlets.

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Speaker 3: Which turned into a headline to get a headline.

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Speaker 4: And blew up into hysteria. And they looked past the

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Speaker 4: point that this was not stemming from some peer reviewed study,

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Speaker 4: but this was just a piece of again conjecture. There

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Speaker 4: was a question, yeah, yeah, it wasn't a study.

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Speaker 5: And the implication is that they got chrotsfield Jacob from

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Speaker 5: or Yakub.

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Speaker 1: From eating deer deer. Yes, from the.

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Speaker 5: Implication is that CWD is crossing the species barrier.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, there was a version of this years ago,

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Speaker 1: equally irresponsible, where they had a guy that had Yakub

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Speaker 1: kreutz Felt and in his personal history had eaten a

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Speaker 1: squirrel brain. What was the headline everywhere? Man got it

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Speaker 1: from eating a squirrel brain, when in fact it was

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Speaker 1: simply that in his personal history he'd eat a squirrel brain.

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Speaker 1: Jim Heffelfinger when this came out, this is a long

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Speaker 1: time ago now, when this came out from Jim Heffelfinger,

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Speaker 1: he said, in talking about this little flurry of news activity,

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Speaker 1: he pointed out that he doesn't even want to post

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Speaker 1: a link because he doesn't want to perpetuate a spread,

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Speaker 1: the spread of this misinformation or information. He said, this

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Speaker 1: is not a study, and this is not a scientific paper.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing is three hundred and forty four words

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Speaker 1: and is simply a mention about two hunters that died

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Speaker 1: of CJD and both of them ate deer from the

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Speaker 1: same deer population. There is no evidence of CWD infecting hunters.

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Speaker 1: There are clusters of CJD throughout the country, some in

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Speaker 1: CWD areas and some outside CWD areas. With the spread

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Speaker 1: of CWD nationwide, it is not very noteworthy, meaning that

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Speaker 1: now I don't know thirty states thirty some states have CWD.

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Speaker 1: With the spread of CWD nationwide, it is not very

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Speaker 1: noteworthy that two CJD victims in the same rural area

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Speaker 1: may have both eaten venison. He points out, we have

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Speaker 1: to be vigilant about the possible jump of a pry

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Speaker 1: on disease from deer to hunter. I couldn't agree more.

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Speaker 1: This is the thing, much to Doug Durn's annoyance, This

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Speaker 1: is I don't want to say, the only thing, it's

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Speaker 1: the primary thing that worries me about CWD is the

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Speaker 1: possibility that it would jump the species barrier and go

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Speaker 1: to humans. If I knew, if God came down and said, Steve,

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Speaker 1: there is no chance CWD can jump to humans, I

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Speaker 1: would care. This is going to really piss off Doug

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Speaker 1: eighty five percent less about CWD.

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Speaker 3: I think that like the human jump is like a

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Speaker 3: step too far. Really, I think people should be way

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Speaker 3: more concerned deer hunters should be way more concerned with

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Speaker 3: CWD jumping to any sort of domestic livestock.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That's what blows my mind, is why the USDA

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Speaker 1: isn't more worried. Yeah, I could weigh. I mean, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys know, I'm no infectious

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Speaker 1: disease specialists, but I'm worried as a person. How are

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Speaker 1: they not worried about cattle?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he look a hell a lot more

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Speaker 1: like a deer than I do.

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Speaker 3: The USDA response to domestic livestock with these types of

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Speaker 3: diseases is is severe and final. It's full eradication. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: which is what.

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Speaker 4: Makes it so scary if ever, if ever does jump

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Speaker 4: to humans, it's going to be the end of our lifestyle,

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Speaker 4: or that beginning of that end.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right now.

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Speaker 3: But it's not going to be as simple as turning

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Speaker 3: a fan off in a chicken.

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Speaker 1: House, because the fuel in the fire now drunkard to

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Speaker 1: boil out, boiled out. Now. Here is from a peer

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Speaker 1: reviewed paper. This is from a peer reviewed paper in Colorado.

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Speaker 1: I want to point out to people Colorado. I'm very

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Speaker 1: reluctant to get into this right now. Because I wanted

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Speaker 1: this to be mistake. I don't want this to be

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Speaker 1: taken wrong. I am an individual who is concerned about CWD.

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Speaker 1: I think that we should be testing robustly. I think

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Speaker 1: we should be investing a lot of money into researching CWD.

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Speaker 1: I think we should find out everything we can find

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Speaker 1: out about CWD, and I think we should be taking

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Speaker 1: reasonable steps to slow the spread of CWD. ME saying

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Speaker 1: me jumping on someone for claiming that CWD has jumped

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Speaker 1: into the human population is not because I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: think that CWD is gonna go away or I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to whitewash the risk of CWD. It's because I don't

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Speaker 1: think that you should go around saying crazy shit to

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Speaker 1: really upset people based off no evidence, like let's have

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Speaker 1: good clean material, good clean science around CWD, and not

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Speaker 1: hysterical hogwash around CWD. A problem is I'm still I'm

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Speaker 1: still ahead of what I'm going to read you next.

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Speaker 1: A problem I have found even within the CWD spectrum,

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Speaker 1: the CWD spectrum being CWD deniers, who once upon a time,

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Speaker 1: a CWD denier was someone who said there's no such

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Speaker 1: sing as CWD. The same way early on a COVID

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Speaker 1: denier was someone who said there's no such thing as COVID.

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Speaker 1: Eventually a COVID denier became someone who said, sure, there's COVID,

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Speaker 1: I just don't think it's that alarming, which puts me

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Speaker 1: in COVID denier, which COVID deniers have caught up to

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Speaker 1: where I'm at, where it's like, sure it's there, I

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Speaker 1: just don't think it's enough. I don't think it warrant

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Speaker 1: shutting people's businesses down. A cwd D denier at a

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Speaker 1: time said there's no such thing. It's all a lie.

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Speaker 1: Now they say, oh, yeah, it's real. I'm just not alarmed.

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Speaker 1: Well it's real. I'm alarmed, but don't go running around

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Speaker 1: saying crazy shit that's not.

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Speaker 2: True, especially knowing what's going to happen in the media.

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Speaker 1: As and they planned that. And there are people the

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Speaker 1: spectrum I was trying to get into the spectrum, on

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Speaker 1: the spectrum of CWD believers whatever, you have deniers who

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Speaker 1: at this current stage are like, yes, it's real, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Two people saying if you so much

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Speaker 1: as put a piece of deer meat on a stainless

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Speaker 1: steel table, you could then drop a nuclear bomb on

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Speaker 1: that steel table, and that steel table is still gonna

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Speaker 1: give you jakub the kreutz Felt disease. Like there's this spectrum.

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Speaker 1: The people on the far end, the super alarmists, also

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Speaker 1: need to chill out. And I've told some of them

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Speaker 1: face to face, please chill out with the zombie deer disease.

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Speaker 1: The all that garbage from a peer reviewed paper. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's this passage from a peer reviewed paper. And oh,

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Speaker 1: I also got a back up a lot of background here. People.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Colorado was where CWD is first identified. Cwd's

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Speaker 1: first identified in Colorado at a deer and elt breeding facility,

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Speaker 1: a research facility that's ground zero for CWD in terms

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Speaker 1: of identification. That they identified it there does not mean

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Speaker 1: that it emerged there. It was identified there, all right.

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Speaker 1: The date they identified it in the seventies does not

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Speaker 1: mean it was born that day. The more you look

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Speaker 1: for it, the more you find it. As we're seeing,

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Speaker 1: meaning as more and more states find CWD, it's often

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Speaker 1: that more and more states are looking for CWD. We

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Speaker 1: don't know where it came from, we don't know when

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Speaker 1: it first emerged. It was the first identified in Colorado,

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Speaker 1: back to this peer review paper. In seven Colorado counties

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Speaker 1: with high CWD prevalence, seventy five percent of state hunting

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Speaker 1: licenses are issued locally, which suggests that residents consume most

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Speaker 1: regionally harvested game. So here, all they're trying to establish

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Speaker 1: is that if you're looking at CWD prevalence and who's

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Speaker 1: eating CWD infected meat, let's look locally. Okay, we'll go

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Speaker 1: to these counties in Colorado with a lot of CWD,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to look at locals, making the assumption

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Speaker 1: that locals are eating most of the local deer meat.

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Speaker 1: Goes on to say, we used Colorado death certificate data

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Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy nine through two thousand and one to

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Speaker 1: evaluate rates of death from the human prion disease. Kreutz

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Speaker 1: felt YAKUB disease. Am I saying that right, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: say CJD so I don't have to feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: messing it up every time. The relative risk of CJD

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Speaker 1: for c WD endemic county residents was not significantly increased,

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Speaker 1: and the rate of CJD did not increase over time

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Speaker 1: in Colorado. Human prion disease resulting from CWD exposure is

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Speaker 1: rare or non existent. The reason they're saying is rare

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Speaker 1: non existent is because they haven't found it. Then it

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Speaker 1: goes down to say, however, there's a lot we don't know.

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Speaker 1: The other piece of this is even after this news

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Speaker 1: came out implying a correlation between consumption and in these

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Speaker 1: two cases, after this news came out, statistically, those two

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Speaker 1: cases happening to come from that area was not an outlier.

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Speaker 1: You have about a dozen cases a year that we found.

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Speaker 1: It was like a giant nothing and like everything, like

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Speaker 1: the guy that got it from eating squirrel brains. You

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Speaker 1: wind up being that when a news story like that

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Speaker 1: comes out, got so worked up, we gotta take my

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Speaker 1: glasses off. When a news story like that comes out,

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Speaker 1: the retraction never gets the retraction never gets the traction

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Speaker 1: you found. This repeated use of the retraction never gets

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Speaker 1: the traction. I wish I could keep it.

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Speaker 3: Going that the initial action.

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Speaker 1: The retraction never gets the traction. That the initial action

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Speaker 1: that it just doesn't c WD scares the shit out

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Speaker 1: of me. So don't be doing stuff like that because

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Speaker 1: I'm already scared. Is it worth talking about the Oklahoma thing?

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Speaker 2: Then?

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Speaker 3: Yes, would you like to.

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Speaker 1: I know Steve wanted to leave that off or not.

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Speaker 1: Can we get into it in a minute. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: here to talk about that that I think like that.

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Speaker 1: God bless them for trying to find a thing. You

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Speaker 1: listeners have no idea what we're talking about. God bless them.

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Speaker 3: But come on, We've covered this heavily on the Week

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Speaker 3: in Review, because again, when I first saw it as

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Speaker 3: a as a little blurb, I was kind of like.

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Speaker 1: Ha ha, it can't be little. Did you know maybe we

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Speaker 1: don't even get into Randall Hoff? Well, damn it. I

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Speaker 1: want to get into it a couple of things real quick.

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Speaker 1: I put this in the notes, and everybody got mad.

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Speaker 1: I wrote in the notes Trump is right about voter fraud.

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Speaker 1: Hear me out hear me out here.

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Speaker 3: I didn't hear a single person in this room get mad.

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Speaker 1: Not mad. We mostly no, not mad.

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Speaker 3: I just wanted to tell you brief in general.

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Speaker 1: I check them out there. I'm on date night. I'm

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Speaker 1: on date night, not on dateline. I'm on date night

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Speaker 1: with my wife, and I'm trying to listen to what

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Speaker 1: she's telling me.

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Speaker 3: But there's something way more interesting.

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Speaker 1: Something way more interesting going on coming to a restaurant

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Speaker 1: and there's a big group of people, look like a

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Speaker 1: qu for funny looking people, look like a corporate function,

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Speaker 1: And I said, that's weird. What what are these guys

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Speaker 1: doing in town? Just didn't something didn't fit. Turns out,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to trivialize they're from World Wildlife Fund.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to trivialize World Wildlife Fund. But they

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Speaker 1: of the many things they do, one of the things

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Speaker 1: they do is they are a thorn in the side

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Speaker 1: of hunters, so that they do a lot of things

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Speaker 1: for wildlife, positive things for wildlife. But anytime, they're always

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Speaker 1: litigating against hunters in cases where I don't think it

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Speaker 1: has anything to do with preserving bio diversity. It's just

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Speaker 1: they got a is this my fair, totally overlyfair center

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Speaker 1: for biological diversity. World Wildlife Fund are always going to

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Speaker 1: litigate against hunters, and they're always going to sort of

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Speaker 1: even with stable wildlife populations, they're gonna kind of come

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Speaker 1: and act like hunting is somehow imperiling stable wildlife populations,

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Speaker 1: and it'll come out. I picked this up. I hear

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Speaker 1: a story about Corey Booker.

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Speaker 3: Here's a senator.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and someone's telling the story as a way to

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Speaker 1: demonstrate how nice Corey Booker is. And I'll point out

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Speaker 1: Corey Booker's a vegan telling how nice Corey Booker is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: by recounting an interaction to Corey Booker is having with

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Speaker 1: a flight attendant, I'm hearing it, and I'm like, that's

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Speaker 1: him scamming on a flight attendant. This is just my

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Speaker 1: like the story I hear, I'm like, that's not nice,

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Speaker 1: that's scamming. Not to say he scammed on a flight attendant,

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Speaker 1: but just that caught That's what caught my attention. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm not coming here and saying you did. I'm saying

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Speaker 1: individuals telling the story. And then the individual tells a

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Speaker 1: story about fixing to commit voter fraud.

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Speaker 3: And the whole time, your dear, beautiful, telling sweet wife

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Speaker 3: is talking and you're going, uh huh.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm with my left ear, I'm listening to her

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Speaker 1: with my right ear. I'm listening to this voter fraud plan.

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Speaker 1: There's an individual in Chicago, and you're pretty deaf in

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Speaker 1: that left ear. I'd love to hear Katie's perspective. I

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Speaker 1: should I cut all this off for legal reasons? How bad.

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Speaker 1: Is it that I that I overheard something in a restaurant?

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Speaker 1: Are you allowed to do this the right? Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean right. The individual's talking lives in Chicago. He lives

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Speaker 1: in Chicago. Now. He did not say who he's planning

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Speaker 1: on voting for this fall, but he's explaining to everyone

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Speaker 1: that he knows how Illinois is going to go on

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Speaker 1: this fall's presidential election. Okay, he owns a cabin in Michigan.

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Speaker 1: He wants to be able to vote in a battleground

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Speaker 1: state this November, so he went and got a Michigan

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Speaker 1: driver's license. When he asked about the legality of what

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Speaker 1: he's doing, he was told, you're supposed to spend a

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Speaker 1: majority of your time in the state where you're registered

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Speaker 1: to vote, but they said they only really care about

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Speaker 1: that with rich people, and since he works for an NG, oh,

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Speaker 1: he felt that this did not apply to him. Wow,

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Speaker 1: just overheard how many how do you do the right caveat?

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Speaker 1: Overheard in the restaurant? Yeah, I thought the overheard.

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Speaker 5: I thought the whole crazy disquisition about the CWD Colorado

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Speaker 5: Hunters scare, but you need evidence.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was all.

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Speaker 5: A setup for this anecdote.

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Speaker 1: No, No, it's just something I overheard. Yeah, Now, I

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Speaker 1: think if you, if you were to say, believe.

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Speaker 3: That whole thing because overheard at a restaurant, right, like

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Speaker 3: we have been the town approached by a police officer

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Speaker 3: in my younger years, because during our late night dinner,

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Speaker 3: we thoroughly ran through all the ways we could have

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Speaker 3: dined and dashed right, eaten and eaten and left without man.

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Speaker 3: Right as just a fun way to have the time

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Speaker 3: where you're having dinner.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you're at dinner, you're discussing ways in which

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Speaker 1: you could get out of paying for said dinner, right, which.

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Speaker 3: At that point in our lives was the perfect crime.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's how you would really stick it to the man.

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Speaker 3: Probably the first people to ever pull that off at an.

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Speaker 1: I know why I brought this up because cow was

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Speaker 1: laying out for me, someone laying out for him away

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Speaker 1: in which you could get a non a way in

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Speaker 1: which you could get a resident hunting license that you

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Speaker 1: weren't allowed to get. Yes, they're sort of saying a

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Speaker 1: fella could, yeah, and Cal was saying, or a fella

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Speaker 1: could just buy the non resident hunting license, yes.

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Speaker 3: Instead of setting purchasing a piece of land getting a

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Speaker 3: po box setting up an LLC. I'm like, boy, that

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Speaker 3: sounds like.

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Speaker 2: Dude, we used to see like very well off second

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Speaker 2: homeowners in Colorado. Dude like try to bend over backwards

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Speaker 2: to get a resident fishing license instead of a non resident,

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Speaker 2: which is like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know what they're doing though, they're chasing

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Speaker 3: the high right.

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Speaker 2: Of sticking it to the man.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's not necessarily sticking it to the man, right,

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Speaker 3: It's like, oh, I'm saving money and that's what really

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Speaker 3: gets them, get them going. Well, that's your heritage.

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Speaker 1: We should start, you know, Krin. This is Kris like

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Speaker 1: this because Kritin doesn't like when we think of ways

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Speaker 1: in which Krink could get more email. But if you

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Speaker 1: want to send it in an email saying here's a

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Speaker 1: wild ass idea in the subject line, and you got

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Speaker 1: a wild ass idea, go ahead and throw it in

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Speaker 1: sent to Krin. Here's a guy wrote in a wild

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Speaker 1: ass idea and talking about live sonar and the controversy

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Speaker 1: surrounding live sonar. He's saying, well, think about Dingle Johnson,

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Speaker 1: some old timer who's digging worms out of his garden

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Speaker 1: and using the same bag of evil claw hooks. He

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Speaker 1: bought twenty years ago, fishing on a resident license. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fishing on a resident lifetime license that he bought. They

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Speaker 1: bought sixty years ago, digging worms out of his garden.

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Speaker 1: Bought a bag, bought a bag of three hundred eagle

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Speaker 1: claw hooks at a sportsman show two decades ago out

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Speaker 1: of some old ass rowboat that he bought at the

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Speaker 1: yard sale. Right, what is he doing for Dingle Johnson?

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Speaker 3: He's taken not give it.

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Speaker 1: There's your enemy. That guy. He's saying a live sonar

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Speaker 1: guy is not the enemy because this guy. Think about

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Speaker 1: the amount of money this guy's pumping into conservation through

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Speaker 1: excise taxes on fishing equipment. Yeah, yes, I added all

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Speaker 1: the stuff about the old.

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Speaker 5: To this guy's credit, he didn't call anyone the enemy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but he was kind of filling out. I was

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Speaker 1: filling out his argument.

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Speaker 3: Growing up, Like how long you would have a box

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Speaker 3: of large caliber ammunition, right, I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like the box would corrode.

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Speaker 2: Yes and yellow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the folds on the box would give out and

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Speaker 1: you'd have to tape them back together before it was gone, right.

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Speaker 2: And there's all kinds of corrosion on the cart just

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Speaker 2: themselves exactly.

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Speaker 1: When my dad died and I was able to raid

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Speaker 1: his Ammo ben I thought at that time that I

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Speaker 1: would never buy Ammo again. I was like, well, shit,

403
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: here's forty Remington Court. That's like, you know, twenty deer

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00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: and then twenty shots to make sure I'm still on. Yeah,

405
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: still good. Yeah. It would be.

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Speaker 4: Really interesting though, to try to run the numbers on

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Speaker 4: the increased funds that we're getting in from, you know,

408
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 4: increased purchase and and you know, folks becoming more and

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Speaker 4: more fervent about this pursuit, right, if you were to

410
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 4: compare that to the negative pressure outcomes of it and

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Speaker 4: try to see, like, how does that.

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Speaker 3: You know, yeah, is there a balance?

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Speaker 1: Here's a four thousand dollars purchase with excise taxes at eleven.

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Speaker 1: That makes you feel bad for yelling at my kid

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Speaker 1: about buying worms.

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Speaker 3: Got a whole garden out there.

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Speaker 1: He could have dug out, Oh, I'm not gonna do one,

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Speaker 1: because we haven't found out if people like him or not.

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Speaker 1: Play the drop fill.

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Speaker 3: I liked the previous one. It just went on too long,

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00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 3: a little too long.

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Speaker 1: I didn't get to happen.

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Speaker 4: But I think I bet I kind of liked that

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Speaker 4: because it's awkwardly long.

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00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: That was kind of what made it so great. Play

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Speaker 1: the drop fill ready for this.

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Speaker 3: One, but I think this should be an alternating host

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Speaker 3: deal to Yeah, so you ain't got to okay.

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Speaker 1: This is a teaser for a future installment. Alaska tracks

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Speaker 1: life stories from hunters, fishermen, and trappers of Alaska. This

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Speaker 1: is there's a Randy Zarnky Zarnk. He's a president of

432
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: Alaska Trappers Association. He's doing an oral history talking to

433
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: old timers. I was gonna share two quick ones for

434
00:27:53,640 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: you from the from my damn glasses back on. I'd

435
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: never started making a podcast, but I knew I was

436
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: gonna lose my reading vision. Listen to this very quick.

437
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,239
Speaker 1: From the time I was about ten years old, I

438
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: had to make a living for the whole family, his dad.

439
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: His dad got to where he couldn't work anymore during

440
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: the Spanish flu pandemic of nineteen eighteen, which hit Alaska hard.

441
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: From the time I was about ten years old, I

442
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: had to make a living for the whole family. The

443
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: Smithsonian had been paying my brother forty five dollars a

444
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: piece for black bear skulls and seventy five dollars for grizzlies.

445
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: If I could get one bear a month, that was

446
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: pretty good money. I'd sell the feet to the Chinese.

447
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: You're listening to Krim. Yeah, I've perked right up.

448
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 6: I still have never eaten a barefoot, though I'm looking

449
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 6: forward to the time I can.

450
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: And I got seven dollars a piece for the galls,

451
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: so if you add it all up, one bear would

452
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: bring in quite a bit of money. Jumping ahead, this

453
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: is from a different fellow, Duke Short out of Cake, Alaska.

454
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: I hunted eagles for bounty. If you tell people that,

455
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: now they think you're a really bad person. We got

456
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: two bucks apiece for eagles. The biggest day I had

457
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: was doing a herring run. The eagles were eating the

458
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: herring and I killed thirty three cow. The only reason

459
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: I didn't get more was I ran out of bullets,

460
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen us Today's installment of Steve Reid's books.

461
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: So you ain't got to.

462
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 4: Now something you didn't do in the first one. But

463
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 4: I wanted to know. It was just do you recommend

464
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 4: the book? Like is this something other folks should even.

465
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: Though they don't. It ain't got to read it, but

466
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: they could, well, let me put the to you this way. Mark,

467
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: guess how I had to read for those tidbits? Not

468
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: very far? Page fourteen is all. I didn't even read

469
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: all the good stuff.

470
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 5: Steve reads the first fifteen pages of a book.

471
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: Well, no, no, I'm going to do a full report.

472
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: And Cal just announced that he's gonna do it full

473
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: for sure.

474
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: Tidbits.

475
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we might. We should buy a timer,

476
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: maybe krinn figure out that the section what what's the

477
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: reasonable length for Let's say Cal reads books that you

478
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: ain't got to I mean a couple of minutes, No,

479
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes, and I think.

480
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 3: I think it should with a couple of minutes, like

481
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 3: buy it or note, buy it or don't.

482
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there's gotta be an assessment, but there should.

483
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: We should work in bang for your bucks so we

484
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: can have a sound.

485
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 5: I think of a solid twenty five minutes.

486
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: Past I was taking fifteen. We get a timer, and

487
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: when you present a great book, you got fifteen minutes.

488
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: I like it? Yeah, new pot. Can we get that

489
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: machine back out? Used to like stop to rate how

490
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: much you like something?

491
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's yeah, we.

492
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: Need to so I don't know you tell me mark

493
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: fourteen pages and I found that. No, that seems like

494
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: a hell of in our And I fell asleep last

495
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: night perfect. I mean not because the book was no good.

496
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: You know, you get to a point where you're gonna

497
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: get a bet. Yeah, I'm shooting eagles three bucks apiece? Random?

498
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: Can you talk about the breeding mule here in Mexico?

499
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: We keep wanting to get into this. Did you get

500
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: boned up or not boned up? I mean I I've.

501
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 5: I familiarized myself with the case a little.

502
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: Bit, but then you know about it prior to this. No,

503
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: I didn't. I just knock off nikes because the thing's backwards.

504
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 5: No, they're real nikes. These are oh there's limited. These

505
00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 5: are the Yannis Antokumpo Immortality threes. Gotta met uh famous

506
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 5: footwear for forty nine ninety nine because I think they're

507
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 5: a few generations old.

508
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: But sorry, it's got distracted. This seems so just unlike you.

509
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 5: I mean, you put a pair of shoes in front

510
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 5: of me, a new pair of shoes for forty nine

511
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 5: ninety nine. I'm gonna have hard time walking away.

512
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: Okay, someone walked me through the breeding milder in Mexico

513
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: because I used to like to say, I think I

514
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: mentioned sport. I used to like to say the thing

515
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: I love about mulders you can't buy a big one,

516
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: which is not true.

517
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this I mean my understanding of the case

518
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 5: was that it's an American citizen and he's he's in

519
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 5: business with two Mexican citizens who own a ranch in Mexico,

520
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 5: and he'd been working with them to improve mule deer genetics.

521
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 5: And uh, he grew the business and then got the

522
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 5: first permit to bring those genetics across the border, and

523
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 5: then in and in the form of semen, in the

524
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 5: form of semens draws. There was a note in here

525
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 5: about how many semens fourteen hundred and sixty semens draws,

526
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 5: and those are coming from more than I've ever seen.

527
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: Those are coming from like a captive breeding facility.

528
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, and two hundred and sixty nine embryos. Mueled your embryos.

529
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: Wow.

530
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 5: And essentially the case is that the guy, the guy's

531
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 5: partners in Mexico, he claims, became jealous of how successful

532
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 5: this guy had become as a result of their joint business,

533
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 5: and he says that they they started threatening his life

534
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 5: and tried to take some of this stuff back and

535
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 5: have engaged in defamation against him. And so he's he's

536
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 5: trying to get some of that genetic material back from

537
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 5: them because it's a partnership gone wrong.

538
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: Got it. Yeah? Uh, this I don't I don't really

539
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 1: care about all that. I didn't care about them fighting

540
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: about whatever. It's just what. Yeah, I don't mean to

541
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: be callous, no, but I guess this guy got What

542
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: was interesting to me was that this is going on

543
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: in the first and.

544
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 5: Well, he got the first ever permit to move as

545
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 5: I understand, he got the first ever permit to move

546
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 5: meal deer DNA genetics embryos across the border in.

547
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what's like, what's happened to that stuffs border?

548
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's in a it's I think it was in

549
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 5: a lab in in uh in Texas or at a

550
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 5: breeding facility in Texas, the facility that does both livestock

551
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 5: and apparently meal deer.

552
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. That was the part that was surprising me because

553
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: I have been noticing on social media accounts of these

554
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: some of these ranches in Mexico they're offering these really

555
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: high dollar mildeer hunts. The staggering numbers of two hundred

556
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: in just one year after the other after the other,

557
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 1: and I'm like, how could this be true? But it's

558
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: that they're getting really good. And I'm not saying that

559
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: I'm not pointing, I'm not saying that there's something like

560
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: nothing criminal. They're getting really good at producing giant mule

561
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: deer out in the desert by using tricks of the

562
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 1: trade developed through white tail management, meaning bringing in food,

563
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: water development, it's all that, and they're kind of like

564
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: creating a they're kind of creating a resource of giant

565
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: box that just wasn't there before by employing strategies developed

566
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: by you know, the Texas white tail community. So now

567
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: they've kind of created like the new mule deer. It's

568
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: like Utah and the seventies down there, What.

569
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: Is it happening behind fences?

570
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: It's got it a lot of it. It's because when

571
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: you see one of these social media pages I follow,

572
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: when I've seen enough guys standing there with like a

573
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: beer in each hand in a golf cart. There you go,

574
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: in a two and twenty inch merely laying there and

575
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: sixteen other guys standing back behind him, I'm like, there's

576
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 1: something just like, yeah, there's something that does not make sense.

577
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: Worked our tails off.

578
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 3: Well, Yet you can take the best areas in the

579
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 3: in the the the North. Yeah really, I mean really

580
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,479
Speaker 3: in North America, and to have like a success rate

581
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: of like three weeks in a row, six people go

582
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 3: and all six get thirty inch wide bucks, Like it

583
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 3: just doesn't even it just doesn't happen. No, it just

584
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: does not happen.

585
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: It's it's so weird looking. And part of the problem,

586
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: it's a minor problem, but part of the problem with

587
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: it is it's gotten to the point with white tails

588
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: where when you if you walk into someone's house and

589
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: you there's certain white tails you'll see and you'll just

590
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: know it's not a wild white tail. Yeah right, you

591
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: look and you don't even ask the guy, oh sweet,

592
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: where'd you get that? Because you just know, like that's

593
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 1: a high fense white tail. You just know the second

594
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: he walk in the door, and it why wasn't being

595
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: it like it kind of a little I don't want

596
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: to say ruins looking at deer, but it with meal

597
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: deer walked in and I've always been like, damn yeah, because.

598
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 2: They were like they were unsullied by that.

599
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: It was like holy.

600
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, so does this hurt a little bit more to

601
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 4: see this with your beloved mule deer and know that

602
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I mean.

603
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: White tail has been turnished for so long, right.

604
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, because those big giants are now now knowing that

605
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: when you see a big giant now in the back

606
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: of your head, you gotta be war you gotta be

607
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: warm about that. The other thing you can just you

608
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: just know is when some guy comes back from New Zealand,

609
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: right and he's got a four hundred inch red stag. Yeah,

610
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: you're like, didn't shoot that? No, right? Right? Yeah?

611
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: But with with mule deer, you're talking like, I don't

612
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 2: know what the numbers would be in in the United States,

613
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: but like it's almost like a handful of two hundred

614
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 2: inches get shot in the whole country every year.

615
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, handful. I don't know what. It's not more

616
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: than fifty.

617
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: Right, so now when fifty are coming back every year,

618
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: it's not.

619
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: More than twenty yeh shit, I don't know, I don't know.

620
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 2: It's not a lot. But now they're just like all

621
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 2: coming north from Mexico. It's like you got it.

622
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 3: Ruins really wrong. When the con when I'm more apt

623
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 3: to ask how was the chef right then about your hunt?

624
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, though I have been looking see I gotta

625
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: admit though, man, looking at those Mexico nil deer, I

626
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: was licking my lips.

627
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, Oh for sure, because you don't see those

628
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 2: wide ones.

629
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: You know, I was licking my lips. I still kind

630
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: of am.

631
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: I mean.

632
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 3: The other thing to think about rad is like through

633
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 3: all the conversations we've had, right, like that desert environment

634
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 3: for big animals, there's just not a.

635
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: Lot of them mm hmm.

636
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 3: But somehow there's a lot of them, right.

637
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: Uh.

638
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just gonna sit back in my chair and

639
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: someone's gonna explain everyone but besides me, and then I'm

640
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: gonna tell you what I think. It's gonna talk about

641
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: the that this idea that you're gonna breed you're gonna

642
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: breed c w D resistance into wild deer. I could

643
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: take a first step at it, Okay, can I can

644
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: I give you my comment now and you can weave

645
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: that in or give you my comment later.

646
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 4: I want to see you squirm in your chair for

647
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 4: a while, wanting to say it it happened to wait,

648
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 4: you should.

649
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: Just interject naturally, sit back I'm to take my watch,

650
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: I'm taking my mouth talker.

651
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: Okay, oh, this is the type of juicy stuff people

652
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: can see up the new YouTube channel.

653
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: Mediator podcast network does off.

654
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 4: So so the cliff notes here is that a peer

655
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 4: review peer review study came out in twenty twenty or

656
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 4: twenty one out of Texas A and M where they

657
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 4: had identified genetic markers that can point to the susceptibility

658
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 4: of a deer to CWD. I basically say, hey, these two,

659
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 4: we'll tell you whether I think it was eighty one

660
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 4: percent rate of accuracy, how susceptible this individual whitetail will

661
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 4: be to contracting chronic wasting disease. So, with that information

662
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 4: until then, the next thought that some folks had was, well,

663
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 4: if we can identify if a deer is susceptible or not,

664
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 4: that means we should be able to selectively breed for

665
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 4: those more resistant traits.

666
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 1: So Oklahoma.

667
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 4: Propose a law recently in which they would develop a

668
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 4: program to do just that. So this proposal came out

669
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 4: that first said, all right, we want to start this

670
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 4: program which will involve number one, establishing a genetic baseline

671
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 4: of what the wild deer population looks like. As far

672
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 4: as this resistance. Number two, they would then start a

673
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 4: captive breeding, selective breeding program in which they would try

674
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 4: to breed for this. And then number three and number

675
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 4: three is the real big, really big concern, is that

676
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 4: starting in twenty twenty six, they may create and open

677
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: up the ability for private individuals to purchase these supposedly

678
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 4: CWD resistant deer and release them, and not just on

679
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 4: high fence ranches, but low fence.

680
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: So any Tom.

681
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 4: Dick or Harry could hypothetically purchase start buying these captive

682
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 4: red deer and start releasing them into the wild.

683
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 3: But only in Oklahoma.

684
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: Only in Oklahoma. But to my knowledge, there's no other

685
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: state in which you had to put my thing back

686
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: just to say, and those deer will know they got

687
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: to stay in Oklahoma, right yeahs. And so this is

688
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:38,959
Speaker 1: like a Pandora's box.

689
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 4: There's all sorts of ways this could go wrong that

690
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 4: we can get into.

691
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 2: They're trying. What they're trying to do, right, is uh

692
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 2: like speed up natural selection if it even exists.

693
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: I got it? Could I do my thing now? I

694
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 1: put my thing back? Sure? My talkers back in position

695
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: presumably if it's in captive deer there's no reason to

696
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: think that this disposition, this resistance, this natural resistance is

697
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: also in wild deer. Just believe that it is. Why

698
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: would it just be there when you have millions of

699
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: wild deer. How in the world do you think that

700
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: turning out some small handful of deer with a certain

701
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: genetic characteristic that already exists in wild deer is going

702
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: to accelerate the natural selection that, if you're right, is

703
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: already occurring right now. Like, if you're right that there's

704
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: a resistance and that that resistance is going to win

705
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: out through natural selection, then it already is you putting

706
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: one loose? Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not even I'm

707
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: not even against the like, I'm not even going down

708
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: the path of being against the idea because let's say

709
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: there's a version like this, let's say you had some

710
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: way well.

711
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 3: Sorry, the version that this idea is based off of,

712
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 3: right is, uh, the near eradication of scrapie and in chigia.

713
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 3: So that's kind of like what they point to.

714
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: But that's all domestic, yes, where you control all breeding.

715
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 4: Well, here's the thing, We've already basically tested this idea

716
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 4: in wild populations of deer and that is through the

717
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 4: act of trying to cull for genetics. Right, So, there's

718
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 4: been all sorts of people in Texas and other parts

719
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 4: of the country where they have, you know, very fervently

720
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 4: studied the idea of whether or not you can influence

721
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 4: genetics within a deer population through culling.

722
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, he's got a wonky right side. Kill him.

723
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: For a long time, that was that was yeah, he

724
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: looked at me. Funny.

725
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, So long story short on that, a slew of

726
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 4: studies have come out over recent years that have completely

727
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 4: disproven that as an effective approach at all. You just

728
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 4: can't do it because of the very things you're saying.

729
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 4: In a wild population, it's just impossible to actually influence

730
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 4: it enough with our degree of effect. So if that

731
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 4: can't work in impacting genetics of white tail deer antler quality,

732
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 4: same thing's gonna.

733
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: Be the truth the case of this. But I don't

734
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: Here's why I don't want to come out and just

735
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: say I condemned the whole idea of Pandora's box and

736
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: all that, because think about this scenario. Let's say, for

737
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: some somehow I don't understand how, but somehow you're able

738
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: to sample a deer. You're be able to shoot it

739
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 1: with one of those darts out of a pneumatic gun

740
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: that they use to shoot tranquisers. You're able to shoot

741
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: a deer and pull a genetic sample from it. A

742
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: little plug right hits, the deer falls off, It's got

743
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: a little chunk of hair on it, and you're able

744
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: to determ and Okay, that deer has a genetic resistance

745
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: to CWD. Maybe it's you know, maybe you realize that

746
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 1: that deer is eleven years old in a area that

747
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: has high prevalence of CWD. So you're like, Wow, that deer,

748
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, survived. You test it. It doesn't have CWD,

749
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: even though you got to test them now dead. Let's

750
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: just say scientifically, you know that you can test a

751
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: deer alive see that it does not have CWD. Also,

752
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: you can make the determination that it carries this gene

753
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: that gives it a level of CWD resistance. And then

754
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: someone proposed, well, let's catch that deer and let's pull

755
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: all of her eggs and go make twenty more and

756
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: then turn that group of twenty deer back out on

757
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: the same landscape where the dough came from. Are you

758
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: do you oppose that much less? So okay, So I'm

759
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: saying I'm not all the way thinking that this is

760
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: the worst idea in the world, because there's different ways

761
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: that it might be approached. I just think it sounds

762
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: silly because there's no reason to think that this resistance

763
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: is only in captive deer. All captive deer came from

764
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: wild deer. They're not from another continent. The captive deer

765
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: industry its birth was just catching wild deer from North America.

766
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: So whatever you're seeing represented in that genetic pool of

767
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 1: captive deer is going to be represented in the wild.

768
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 1: I would just guess that the same percentage of resistance

769
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: is out there in the wild if this whole thing

770
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: would work, that it's already working or not, and you

771
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: putting a couple more out there ain't gonna make shit

772
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: for deerfs.

773
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: Gonna cost a lot of money.

774
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 5: I mean, well, and it's gonna make someone a lot

775
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 5: of money. That was the other part of that article

776
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 5: is that captive deer interests are involved in this plan.

777
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 4: In the in the in the legislature, and on the

778
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 4: Fishing Game Commission. There are interests that.

779
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it almost seems like an underhanded way of being

780
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 2: able to move.

781
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: Deer around exactly.

782
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 4: And that's where you get into some real sticky worries

783
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 4: here is that Number one, you can't like, a CWD

784
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,439
Speaker 4: can lie dormant. It can be positive in a deer

785
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 4: for several years before we might ever be able to

786
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 4: identify that. So you can get many false negatives. So

787
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 4: they're gonna let's type of hypothetically say that a deer

788
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 4: tests negative. There are live tests, but they're not terribly accurate.

789
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 4: But you could do a test and say, okay, well

790
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 4: this deer supposedly is resistant, and we tested it before

791
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 4: release and it came back negative. Two years later, that

792
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 4: deer could then end up testing positive and it was

793
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 4: positive at that moment, but now we've already released it

794
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 4: and transported across the state all over the place.

795
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: But I have to assume they're only going to cut

796
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: these loose in areas of high prevalence anyway. Maybe, So

797
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: if someone was going to do it prophylactically, I think

798
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: that that would be hugely problematic, right. I think the

799
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: propylactics are always.

800
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 5: Oh, my Robberts, my father, my father in law, or

801
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 5: not my father in law prophilactically, number of content toothbrush

802
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 5: is a prophylactic.

803
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: To do it prophylactically. No one is going to get

804
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: into that. No one is gonna before that.

805
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 3: Well right now, I think a huge thing to keep

806
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 3: in mind is there's no consensus on what resistance is.

807
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: Mmmm.

808
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 3: So is the deer that dies a day after the

809
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 3: other group of deer more resistant?

810
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: Oh? Like yeah, some people lived a year longer.

811
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. So that's another huge question mark as to why

812
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,919
Speaker 3: people who are conservatively approaching this topic are like, well,

813
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 3: this step is putting the cart way before the horse

814
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 3: because we don't even know what resistance is at this

815
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 3: release program.

816
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,240
Speaker 1: But give me, give me the Pandora's box. I'm failing

817
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: to see it. I can see it as a waste

818
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: of effort because of because like I said, it's like

819
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: you're trying to go into a population is that have

820
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of animals and you're trying You're thinking

821
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: you're going to influence it with some small number of

822
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 1: released animals. But give me the Pandora's box, because these

823
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: aren't GMOs. These are just deer that you've just These

824
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 1: are just white tail deer.

825
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 5: Are Virginia oticle Leonis Virginia virginianus.

826
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: They're white tail deer from the continent. They're not genetically modified.

827
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: You're not doing gene insertion. They're not robo deer. They

828
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: are a deer that you have identified having some disease

829
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: potential disease resistance.

830
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 3: I'll give you mind and you.

831
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: Let it run out, like give me the negative.

832
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the simple one right now is I

833
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 3: know we we covered like the first known w CWD hotspot,

834
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 3: but we have a lot of other known CWD hotspots.

835
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 3: They for the most part, all tend to be at

836
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 3: or very near close proximity to captive servid facilities. Correct,

837
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 3: So haven't we already seen the Pandora's box, Like we

838
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 3: have captive servant facilities. Just so happens like a new

839
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 3: K shows up and five miles away. So now we're

840
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 3: thinking we're gonna throw it back into the court of

841
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 3: the captive service facility. Let's see what you guys come

842
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 3: up with next. I'm sure it's got to be better,

843
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 3: right then current CWD.

844
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: And then one of the chances something like that it

845
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: happened again. Right, Yes, hey, I got you, And we're

846
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 1: creating a.

847
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 4: This hypothetically would create a private market for individuals to

848
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 4: purchase captively bred deer and release them into the wild,

849
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 4: which we've never done before. And I just can't I

850
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,320
Speaker 4: can't imagine the future in which, Okay, if we start,

851
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 4: if captive breeding facilities can start breeding these animals and

852
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 4: marketing them to the general public, right, trying to convince

853
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 4: folks to buy, right, buy these deer and release the

854
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 4: CWD resistant deer. You can't tell me that ten twenty

855
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 4: years down the road, not only will they market them

856
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 4: as CWD resistant, but also this came from one hundred

857
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 4: eighty inch genetics. So you can start releasing your selectively

858
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 4: bred mega antler deer.

859
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: All of a sudden.

860
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 4: Now that's not just a high fence thing, but any

861
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 4: guy could go and start releasing these on their Yeah,

862
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 4: that's pandorian.

863
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 5: And it's not the it's not the same as like introduced.

864
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 5: I mean, obviously it's it's the same species. It's a

865
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 5: native species, but it has like this bucket biology kind

866
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 5: of feel to it.

867
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like.

868
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 5: It's just a very slippery slope moving moving wild animals around.

869
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: It's just I like what I think that you you, Yeah,

870
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: that that was very pandorian of Hey, now that I

871
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: can start buying deer and cutting them loose. H, I

872
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: want that CWD thing you're talking about, But like, can

873
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: you send a picture of the buck? Yeah? Yeah, exactly

874
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 1: for sure. Well, but you just pointed out that that's

875
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: not actually true. What do you mean?

876
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 2: Oh?

877
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 4: Well, right, but that doesn't mean people will try Yeah,

878
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 4: I get it, I get it.

879
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: Here's the biggest thing I can see, uh, not the

880
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: big I shouldn't say that. Here's the thing I think

881
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: that's that's noteworthy about this issue. Here you have the

882
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: captive servid industry has been has been villainized for years

883
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: around CWD. And imagine how and how uh, when you're

884
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: looking at this as a pr problem, that you'd be

885
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,399
Speaker 1: able to come back around and turn this whole thing

886
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: on its head and emerge as the savior. That's got

887
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 1: to be an intriguing that's exactly what's happening. That's got

888
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: to feel good.

889
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 5: Well, I think too. One of the issues with the

890
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 5: law that just passed, at least from what I've seen

891
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 5: pointed out, is that it's not just like looking at

892
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:34,240
Speaker 5: this idea, but it's laying out it's not only putting

893
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 5: the cart before the horse. It's like paving that road.

894
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,240
Speaker 5: And there's like a timeline for this to happen, and

895
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 5: and before it's it's like determine whether or not this

896
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 5: is really feasible.

897
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: There's like a target a target date.

898
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, like a year and a half out. And we

899
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 4: didn't we didn't mention at the beginning when I led

900
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 4: this off, I said, this law was proposed. This isn't

901
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 4: just a proposed law. Now, this is a past and

902
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:00,439
Speaker 4: sign in the law.

903
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, happening. Do you think they could work up with

904
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 1: skunk that don't smell and cut him loose.

905
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 2: He wouldn't be a skunk anymore. Yeah, but yeah they could,

906
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 2: like when they're marketing their their big giant bucks, they

907
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: can be like disease free two hundred and fifty incher

908
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 2: you know, selt that way all right?

909
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 3: Sk that just shoots out fabreeze?

910
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 6: Uh?

911
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 1: All right? You want to hear a guy's suggestion to

912
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: the Michigan DNR while run the subject deer?

913
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 4: Sure do I've heard a few of my day.

914
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: My family owns a farm, and this is not me.

915
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 1: We don't know a farman southern Michigan. This is someone

916
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: that wrote in My family owns a farm in southern Michigan.

917
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: Every year, we require everyone who hunts with us to

918
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,760
Speaker 1: kill does on our property. For at least the last decade,

919
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: there have been multiple processors in our area that would

920
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: accept cleaned deer as donations free of charge. I would

921
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: regularly drop off donations throughout the season. I have always

922
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: made it a habit of regularly calling processors. I should

923
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: preface this by saying this. The head of Michigan's DNR

924
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 1: was it last year. Last fall the year before, basically

925
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: wrote a public letter the Dear Biologist of Michiganists Michigan

926
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 1: saying we need to kill more does and we can't

927
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: get people to kill does. We reported on that, and

928
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: I got a call from Doug Duran reminding me that

929
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: I have often said, when someone tells you there's too

930
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: many blank, there's too many deer, there's too many whatever,

931
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: there's too many bears, always ask by whose measure? Because

932
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: I like to point out I don't know elk hunters.

933
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: I never hear an elk hunter telling me there's too

934
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: many elk. Right, people go out, they want to see elk.

935
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: People go out deer hunt and they want to see deer,

936
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: so when they hear there's too many deer, it puzzles them.

937
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: They didn't feel like they saw too many deer. They

938
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 1: want to see more deer, but they feel they have

939
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: too many deer and they can't get people to kill

940
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: does And Chad did it.

941
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 4: He did a good job in that email and that

942
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 4: note articulating the why. I do think he did a

943
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 4: good job of trying to explain to the general hunting

944
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 4: public of Michigan that you addressing that question like, hey,

945
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 4: I understand you want to see a lot of deer,

946
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 4: but here are the possible negative outcomes of this the situation.

947
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 1: He goes on to say, this year, none of our

948
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: processors accept the donations at all. It was explained to

949
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: me by the processors that the state of Michigan now

950
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: requires that each donation must be CWD screened, which takes

951
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: two to three weeks. Then a random meat sample from

952
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: every donated deer needed to be state evaluated for metal

953
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: from bullet fragments. That translates into deer hanging in processors

954
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: or being stored in their freezers for weeks. Therefore, because

955
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: of that storage problem, they're not willing or able to

956
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 1: participate in the program. He said, I can kill twenty

957
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: to twenty five dos a year, but without being able

958
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: to donate the meat, it's almost impossible for him to

959
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 1: kill that many does. He also goes on to say,

960
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: why are they charging twenty bucks for an antler this

961
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:42,439
Speaker 1: deer tag? You should price them to sell and sell

962
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: them at five dollars. He also says Michigan ends their

963
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: deer season in January. Why don't they let it run

964
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: into the spring. If they really want to get killed those,

965
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: I'll say, too bad, you can't donate your deer. Have

966
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: you tried this? Have you tried putting up a sign

967
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: just like how normal people put up no trespassing signs?

968
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: Have you put up tried putting up signs that say

969
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: please do you hunt my place? You will get a

970
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 1: lot of does killed? Or say put up signs that say,

971
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: if you're interested in harvesting whitetail, does, contact me at blank.

972
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 2: Put an add the local paper, add the local paper.

973
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a place to hunt does with

974
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: your kids, please contact me at blank. I think you

975
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: will get a lot of does killed.

976
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 3: Even at twenty bucks apiece.

977
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: Although I know that Sorry, it's a problem where he's

978
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: writing in about it.

979
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 4: I think what we found though, is that you almost

980
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 4: I can't remember who if I spoke to, if this

981
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 4: was Russ Mason with the DNR at one point or

982
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 4: fist Chad, But someone I spoke to basically said, no

983
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 4: matter how they liberalize the regulations with dill harvest, no

984
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 4: matter how many tags they give out, no lever they

985
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 4: can push has been able to significantly increase dill harvest.

986
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 6: Me.

987
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's keep it up until early February. Yeah,

988
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: you know I could kill any more dogs. There's just yeah,

989
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: people have a certain number they're willing to and but

990
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: if this guy wants to kill does, and now he

991
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: can't shoot them because they don't want to accept them

992
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 1: at the donation place. I have a feeling in Michigan

993
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: hunters would be really helpful, good old hunters.

994
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 4: I don't think that it's a bad idea though, to

995
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 4: consider new ideas, like like having a free done tag

996
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 4: with every buck hunters come.

997
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: If he if he opened up dog durn wants to shoot.

998
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: Does you know how Doug Duran gets forty does removed

999
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: off his place.

1000
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 3: I had a back, got a line out the door.

1001
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,919
Speaker 1: Come shoot the dose please, and what happens people show

1002
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: start shooting those forty a year.

1003
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 6: I had an exchange with this gentleman because the first

1004
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 6: thing I did was recommend checking out Doug's.

1005
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:14,919
Speaker 2: Organization sharing the land.

1006
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 6: I was gonna say, saving the land, and that's not

1007
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 6: sharing sharing the land, and he he he's going to

1008
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 6: look into that. But in the past he shared with

1009
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 6: me that he has opened up the land to hunters

1010
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 6: and uh, it's just caused some problems.

1011
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 1: Well, not with Dougs program that Doug vets all the

1012
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 1: That's exactly you have to go through the application process

1013
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: to participate that what I.

1014
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 6: Said, I thought that the bar would maybe be much higher.

1015
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: So one of the funniest conversations I had around this

1016
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: issue is Cal and I. This is Cal's I'm gonna

1017
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: steal Cal's joke. Cal and I were hunting on a

1018
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 1: place in Hawaii, a coffee plantation Hawaii where they have

1019
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 1: a lot of problem with pigs rooting everything up. I saw,

1020
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 1: I'll tell you one way to get rid of these pigs.

1021
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 1: Put up a sign that says come hunt picks. And

1022
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 1: he said, do you know what kind of people we

1023
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 1: would get if we put up a sign like that,

1024
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: Cal said barbecuers.

1025
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 3: I am so funny.

1026
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 2: I can see the problem this guys have and becoming

1027
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 2: more common though with donation programs.

1028
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, well, and then I mean, I guess the

1029
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 5: to the point made by the Michigan dn R, if

1030
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 5: he opens up his place net, there's probably no increased

1031
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 5: dough harvest in that county.

1032
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: Right.

1033
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 5: It's like the people that are going to come shoot

1034
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 5: a dough and his place aren't going to go shoot

1035
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 5: one somewhere else. I'm just basing.

1036
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: Okay, there's a person I was just talking with at

1037
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 1: my mom's where I grew up. Okay, this individual his

1038
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 1: grandfather hunted, His father hunted. He just didn't get into it.

1039
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 1: Now he has a boy, and it skipped the generation

1040
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: with him, just it was never interested in it. His

1041
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 1: boy is dying to go deer hunting. But here he's

1042
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: sort of missed this whole thing, of like he doesn't

1043
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: know how the whole thing works. That guy and that

1044
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: kid go shoot a shitload of those doughs. In his mind,

1045
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: he's like, the more I think about it, I would

1046
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 1: just eat that deer meat.

1047
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm just saying the macro I don't know if

1048
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 5: it would have the sort of macro effect, then.

1049
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 3: Are you thinking like local huntered local hunters equate to

1050
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 3: doe harvest versus the further away you get from the

1051
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 3: hunting spot, people are less interested in traveling to shoot

1052
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 3: a dough.

1053
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 5: No, I'm just thinking about the I mean the idea

1054
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 5: that liberalizing doe harvest or liberalizing hunting seasons doesn't seem

1055
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 5: to generate more dead does.

1056
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 2: I think if you give, if you people who will

1057
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 2: shoot dose more places to shoot dose, more will get

1058
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 2: if you.

1059
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 5: Went, if you went, if you went to make I

1060
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 5: didn't say this is like I'm fully convinced of it.

1061
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 1: I just threw that out as like a as a Michigander. Yeah,

1062
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: Mark's a Michigander. I'm telling you this. If everyone in

1063
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: Michigan that wanted to shoot a doe this year had

1064
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 1: a place to shoot a dough, there wouldn't be no

1065
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: does so so just there would Yeah.

1066
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 4: I gotta I gotta tell you about a pretty cool idea.

1067
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 4: An interesting example of this problem.

1068
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: Uh.

1069
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 4: I've been pretty involved with the field to Ford program

1070
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 4: in Michigan and on the back forty and UH, a

1071
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 4: couple of the new hunters that have gone through that program. Uh,

1072
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 4: are are similar to the type of person you're describing,

1073
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 4: somebody who wants more meat.

1074
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 1: They're getting into hunting.

1075
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 4: They're trying to find ways to you know, fill the freezer,

1076
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 4: and the biggest problem they've had is found finding places

1077
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,440
Speaker 4: to do it. And so at first, you know, they

1078
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 4: started trying to hunt public land, and then they've tried

1079
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 4: to get private access and they continue to struggle, like

1080
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 4: go to a lot of places and there's guys that

1081
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 4: are already hunting it, or there's people that will let

1082
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 4: them hunt, but they're really just focused on bucks that

1083
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 4: they don't want them in there hunting for does when

1084
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 4: they're guys that there hunting for bucks. But they bumped

1085
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 4: into a farmer, and this farmer brought the fact that

1086
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 4: he gets these depredation permits and he has twenty five

1087
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 4: or fifty dough tags a year and can never get

1088
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 4: enough people to use them really m hm, And he

1089
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 4: would love these deer get shot, but can't get anyone

1090
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 4: to do it.

1091
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 1: Really.

1092
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 4: So my two friends said, well, hey, that's all we want.

1093
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 4: We want to shoot does, and hey we don't mind

1094
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 4: doing it in the summer. That's great, We'll do it,

1095
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 4: and so they have started and I'm jumping the gun

1096
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 4: for them here, but they are going to pilot a

1097
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 4: program this year in which they try to connect new

1098
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 4: hunters looking for access, trying to find ways to kill

1099
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 4: deer with farmers with depredation permits who want does killed.

1100
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 4: So get a bunch of new hunters who want to

1101
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 4: have an opportunity to do this out there in the

1102
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 4: summer when nobody else wants to do it. But they

1103
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 4: don't care they can't shoot bucks because they don't know

1104
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 4: about shooting a buck.

1105
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 1: They just want to shooting dose.

1106
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 4: So this year they're going to be doing that and uh,

1107
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 4: we'll see how it goes.

1108
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 2: Heck, yeah, the summer.

1109
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 1: How low do they want? Dear? Like I always get,

1110
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: I get a little as soon as people come up

1111
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: with like great deer extermination ideas, I always get like

1112
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 1: a little nervous. Sure, we've been through this before. Remember

1113
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: I just read a minute ago, I killed thirty three

1114
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 1: bald eagles in one day.

1115
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 3: Right, all of a sudden, you're like, boy, there's not

1116
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 3: a lot of bald eagles.

1117
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: And then they got to a point where they had

1118
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 1: to put him on the ESA, right.

1119
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 3: So what Uh, Doug always brings up earn a buck,

1120
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 3: but it's everybody got pissed. Everybody it was that was

1121
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 3: it effective though? Yeah, well other than making people pissed.

1122
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: I don't know he he had. I wish Doug was

1123
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: here to explain it. But I'm sure this wasn't so

1124
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 1: widespread in the gate of the program, but it spawned

1125
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: this whole industry of can I borrow your dough? But

1126
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: what I do not follow your dough?

1127
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 4: As I understand it, though, the rate of CWD spread

1128
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 4: during that time period was significantly lower as compared to

1129
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 4: when they removed that. It's like this kind of trend

1130
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 4: dramatically increased because they were able to slow down. They

1131
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 4: were able to increase harvest and slow that spread. And

1132
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,959
Speaker 4: when they removed that tool from the toolbox, it changed things.

1133
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 4: And it also from the folks that I know in

1134
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 4: Wisconsin who were interested in having a more natural deer

1135
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 4: herd and balanced age structure, balanced buck todal ratio, things

1136
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 4: were a lot better.

1137
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: During that time period. On that book. We should clarify

1138
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 1: just in case someone's new to wildlife politics and all that.

1139
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 1: When we're talking about wanting to reduce deer numbers, want

1140
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: of the lower deer numbers. There's historically been a single driver.

1141
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 1: The single driver's been agricultu damage.

1142
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 4: Right, yep, Well you're saying white people would want to historically,

1143
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 4: and insurance company.

1144
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 1: Just heard it. That's kind of like I used to

1145
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 1: cite that, and then I've read in places where people

1146
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: have tried to go in and search like sort of

1147
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: the powerful car insurance lobby moving to lower deer numbers.

1148
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of a thing that's not I

1149
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 1: could be wrong. Someone could write in if they found otherwise.

1150
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 1: That's been kind of proven as a thing that's like

1151
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: not true.

1152
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, the farm lobby has a lot of.

1153
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 1: Pool with that. The I always thought that the auto insurres.

1154
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: Someone's like, that's that's like an urban legend. The auto

1155
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: insurers were leaning on state game agencies to lower deer

1156
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: populations to lower claims. If someone can contradict that, I

1157
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: don't really know. I always cited that, and then I

1158
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: can't even remember who told me that. It's kind of horseshit.

1159
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1160
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 3: Just on the on the dough harvest side of things,

1161
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 3: you know, I got to go hang out with Doug

1162
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 3: for opening weekend and days after. I was shocked at

1163
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 3: the just general buck activity despite what to my you know,

1164
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 3: tender Montana ears sounded like an absolute battle going on

1165
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 3: for three days straight. More shots opening morning that I

1166
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:27,799
Speaker 3: would hear walking around in Western Hills in a whole season, and.

1167
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 1: That's the big hunt for you, Oh dude, it's still

1168
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 1: seeing bucks run around.

1169
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:36,759
Speaker 3: And still seeing bucks running around. I shot a really cool,

1170
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 3: bigger buck and went to drag it out to the

1171
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 3: closest like four wheeler track road and kind of came

1172
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 3: into this opening where one of Doug's buddies had been

1173
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 3: shooting all morning. Shooting would be the accurate, accurate description,

1174
01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 3: And there's it looked like a scene from like The

1175
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:04,759
Speaker 3: Walking Dead. There were dose legs up everywhere you looked

1176
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 3: in this field, to the degree that I was like,

1177
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm just gonna fade back into the

1178
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 3: canopy and wait until it's dark dark before I go

1179
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 3: walking out into this field.

1180
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 1: Huh.

1181
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 3: And but the proximity kind of going back to this

1182
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:25,799
Speaker 3: guy right and end to a processor is really close.

1183
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 3: You know, you start stacking up all those does it's

1184
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 3: a lot of work. But like there's a big part

1185
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 3: of me that wants to go back, just shoot dose,

1186
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 3: take them to that processor because the broughtwurst was so good, unbelievable.

1187
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:42,519
Speaker 1: Cal's Brod's holy shit.

1188
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 3: It's nuts. And I liked making sausage. But that's a

1189
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:46,559
Speaker 3: lot of work too.

1190
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 1: Uh. Back to this thought for a second. Historically, too

1191
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: many deer meant too much agricultural damage. That's still is.

1192
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to explain that where are people getting

1193
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 1: the idea of too many deer? Where's it coming from? Now?

1194
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 1: It's that that remains constant agricultural damage. And there's this

1195
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: other idea laid on that that too many deer two

1196
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:23,679
Speaker 1: dens of populations of deer facilitates an accelerated disease transmission.

1197
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:28,679
Speaker 4: And two other things. Oh please, you've got herd health things,

1198
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,439
Speaker 4: and you have habitat health as well. So when you have,

1199
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 4: like you know in Dug's area, so many deer, here's

1200
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:37,559
Speaker 4: a really hard time, you know, seeing okra generation. There's

1201
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 4: many many states across the country where you have these

1202
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:43,720
Speaker 4: browse lines where it's nothing five feet down, and then

1203
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 4: you see leaf structure again, So we see all sorts

1204
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 4: of cascading biodiversity effects by these exorbitantly high white tailed

1205
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 4: deer populations, which then and this is I think where

1206
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 4: the standard deer hunter becomes interested. When you have a

1207
01:11:57,439 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 4: unnaturally high deer population, your deer hunting experience this might

1208
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 4: be different than you would imagine, but it's not going

1209
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 4: to be as great because you're going to see a

1210
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 4: whole lot of deer, but you're not going to see

1211
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 4: a lot of natural deer behavior that you would in

1212
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 4: a more balanced, healthy deer herd. When you have a

1213
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 4: relatively balanced dough to buck ratio, you are going to

1214
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,679
Speaker 4: see a much more exciting rut. Bucks are actually going

1215
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 4: to do running things. They're going to be chasing, they're

1216
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 4: gonna be fighting, they're gonna be doing all that kind

1217
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 4: of stuff you're going to have. When you have way

1218
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 4: too many doughs compared to bucks, it's going to stagger

1219
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,640
Speaker 4: and mess up. The breeding and the fawn drop and

1220
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:35,439
Speaker 4: things like that all get out of whack, and so

1221
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:38,679
Speaker 4: you have this kind of cascade of different effects when

1222
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 4: you do not have the natural balance that you achieve

1223
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:45,800
Speaker 4: when you have some level of you know, it's like

1224
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:48,680
Speaker 4: thirty dos to one buck is just not natural. We

1225
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 4: get that in some of these states and these very

1226
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 4: very very high deer populations. It messes a lot of

1227
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 4: stuff up that impacts not only the habitat but our

1228
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 4: experience as hunters too.

1229
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 1: Okay, so egg disease and Mark Kenyon, Man, we're gonna

1230
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 1: get all into Governor's Tags. Sh'd save that krin, you

1231
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 1: think so?

1232
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 2: I mean saving that one for a while.

1233
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if we do it, it's gonna risk

1234
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 3: we're gonna generate a longer format conversation in the future.

1235
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 3: So I'd say we just talk about it because we

1236
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 3: can do it quick.

1237
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:36,240
Speaker 1: What's that? Okay? Tell me? Uh, let me tee it up.

1238
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:41,599
Speaker 2: Are we gonna give our own like thumbs up thumbs

1239
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:43,799
Speaker 2: down on our thoughts?

1240
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 1: How many times have I told the story about the

1241
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 1: GMO guy that came on?

1242
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 2: Four?

1243
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 1: Four times? Here's the fifth. I'm not gonna do it. It's

1244
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 1: my favorite quote of all time. Actually, my favorite quote

1245
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: of all time was from Ike Turner. But I'm not

1246
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:13,719
Speaker 1: going to tell that quote Governor's Tags. All right, sure,

1247
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,840
Speaker 1: picture you have a wildlife resource. Don't really have to

1248
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 1: do this. Picture. You have a wildlife resource where the

1249
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 1: demand exceeds the supply wildly exceeds, where the demand wildly

1250
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 1: exceeds the supply. In this case, we'll talk about bighorn sheep.

1251
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: You have thousands and thousands of people in every western

1252
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 1: state want to draw a bighorn sheep tag, but there's

1253
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: only one hundred or two hundred or fifty available, or

1254
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 1: in the case of Texas, one available. How do you

1255
01:14:55,120 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 1: allocate those tags? Generally, historically in this country we have

1256
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: given them out in a democratic fashion, which is consistent

1257
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 1: with our wildlife management values, where we have lotteries. You

1258
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: send in a few bucks, your name, you know, as

1259
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 1: we say, your name goes into a hat, and there

1260
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 1: is a lottery drawing and you pull them out. At

1261
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:24,360
Speaker 1: some point in time, I was hoping to get a

1262
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 1: governor's tag expert on to talk about the inception of

1263
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 1: governor's tags. At some point in time, I don't know

1264
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:36,639
Speaker 1: when someone had the bright idea to say, man, why

1265
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 1: don't we do that, like give them out to all

1266
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:45,639
Speaker 1: the little people through lottery. But let's just sell one

1267
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 1: and see how much it goes for, and then we'll

1268
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:52,720
Speaker 1: take all that money. Because that's gonna look horrible, but

1269
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 1: we'll take all that money and use it for sheep habitat.

1270
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:00,600
Speaker 1: And they said let's just see what happen. Well, it

1271
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:03,759
Speaker 1: turns out that what happens is this, people are willing

1272
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 1: to pay one hundred thousand dollars, two hundred thousand dollars,

1273
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars, four hundred thousand dollars, and now

1274
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,759
Speaker 1: close to five hundred thousand dollars to jump in line

1275
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 1: a line that you might not ever get to the

1276
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 1: front of if you're a Joe blow most people will

1277
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:25,880
Speaker 1: never get They'll never get to the front of the line.

1278
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 1: And it turns out that getting to the front of

1279
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:31,920
Speaker 1: the line on a big horn sheep tag is worth

1280
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:37,559
Speaker 1: regularly hundreds of thousands of dollars, and it's not.

1281
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 2: And the idea is so successful in raising money that

1282
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 2: it spread out to a bunch of other species too.

1283
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 1: Yep. Then they're like, well, shit, let's try that with deer.

1284
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:55,960
Speaker 1: Let's try it out, try anelo anything where the demand

1285
01:16:56,040 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: exceeds the supply. With that said, take it away.

1286
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 2: Well, there's only a finite number of tags, right, I

1287
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:13,559
Speaker 2: just said that. So when when someone with the money

1288
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 2: can go in there and win that auction, that tag

1289
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 2: is coming from a pool of tags.

1290
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that that I don't think it

1291
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 1: comes from the pool. I think they made an extra okay,

1292
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 1: because you just said there's like I have laugh. Well,

1293
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:34,680
Speaker 1: because think of how they did it. Think of how

1294
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:37,880
Speaker 1: Arizona did Arizona spawned this whole conversation because I'll point

1295
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,560
Speaker 1: out just a spoiler alert, Arizona's Game Commission voted to

1296
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,639
Speaker 1: get rid of governor tags in Arizona. When you get

1297
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 1: a governor's tag, your tag, Like if you draw a

1298
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:50,640
Speaker 1: big horn tag in Arizona, you have a season in

1299
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,719
Speaker 1: a unit when you buy the governor's tag. To sweeten

1300
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:58,120
Speaker 1: the deal, this is insane. Seeming to sweeten the deal,

1301
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 1: they said, oh, in your season, Bud, three hundred and

1302
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: sixty five days is your hunting season, and you can

1303
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 1: hunt any unit that is open to sheep hunting. That

1304
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:13,679
Speaker 1: tag did not come out of the pool.

1305
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 2: Even if it didn't, that guy goes let's say you're

1306
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 2: the one dude who draws the big horn tag and

1307
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 2: a unit. Yep, the governor's guy goes in there and

1308
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 2: shoots the.

1309
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 1: Big ram in there. Oh yeah, and he's got months right,

1310
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 1: he can do it. When you find out if your

1311
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 1: season opens like September fifteenth, that's some bitch as all

1312
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 1: summer to hunt.

1313
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:40,400
Speaker 3: So I will I will say, like in the state

1314
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 3: of Idaho, there's a Governor's tag for the the numbers increased,

1315
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 3: but Hell's Canyon, the Hell's Canyon tag, arguably the best

1316
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 3: big horn sheep tag in the state of Idaho, is

1317
01:18:56,600 --> 01:19:00,920
Speaker 3: at one. There's one tag. This is I get. I

1318
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:03,280
Speaker 3: don't know what it's at right now, but at the time,

1319
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 3: one tag. And they factored in that there's a ninety

1320
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:16,559
Speaker 3: chance that if the Governor's tag or whoever gets the

1321
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:19,639
Speaker 3: Governor's tag is gonna hunt that unit, gonna hunt that unit,

1322
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 3: which is why there's one tag.

1323
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 1: Oh, because it would have been too because it would

1324
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:25,639
Speaker 1: have been okay, So there's one extra.

1325
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 5: Yes, there's it's not necessarily taking a tag out of

1326
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 5: the pool, but there's gonna be one more dead ram.

1327
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 1: Yep. Now, I gotta before what we even get into

1328
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 1: some listener feedback on this, I gotta say I am

1329
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:39,600
Speaker 1: so torn on the issue that is the It is

1330
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:42,800
Speaker 1: one of the very few areas of wildlife politics where

1331
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 1: I do not have an opinion.

1332
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 3: Bullshit.

1333
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can think of a lot of stuff that

1334
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 1: I don't have an opinion.

1335
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:54,920
Speaker 3: Done this is the one area. One of the area

1336
01:19:55,880 --> 01:20:00,560
Speaker 3: Stephen Ranella tattooed on his gravestone.

1337
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:03,200
Speaker 2: I can't think anything good or bad to say about it.

1338
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:04,760
Speaker 1: No, no, I can think of all kinds of good and bad.

1339
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 1: I think, no, not that I don't know. I didn't

1340
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 1: mean that. I have conflicting opinions, meaning okay, you're right,

1341
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 1: cal I'll phrase it differently. If I was emperor of

1342
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:19,680
Speaker 1: the country and they said, oh, yeah, one last thing,

1343
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 1: what about governor's tags, I'd be like, I still haven't decided, Okay,

1344
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:29,000
Speaker 1: I got to think about it longer. Yeah, that's what I.

1345
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,600
Speaker 4: Just when I think about it, I go back to what, Yeah,

1346
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 4: what's better for the resource in the end, and in

1347
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:41,360
Speaker 4: then the government a million dollars in habitat respiration the resource.

1348
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 1: It's better for the resource. What's better for us emotionally.

1349
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:46,560
Speaker 3: Better for the resource.

1350
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 1: But it's not.

1351
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 2: It doesn't American mode.

1352
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 5: If you have ten governors tags, right, if it's simply

1353
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:58,800
Speaker 5: about maximizing the slippers of the market value for the

1354
01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 5: economic value of those wildlife resources, you'd auction all the tags.

1355
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 1: I think there is.

1356
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:10,360
Speaker 5: I was gonna say that the Arizona the guy the

1357
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 5: email from the guy in Arizona, I think, pointed out

1358
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 5: something that's relevant to us here in Montana, and that

1359
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 5: is that there are other ways of of allocating these

1360
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 5: special opportunities, in one of which is because he I

1361
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 5: believe he pointed out that in Arizona they're not doing

1362
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 5: away with.

1363
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 1: Well, i'll tell you what he said, unless you'd like

1364
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 1: to read it.

1365
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:32,000
Speaker 5: No, no, go ahead.

1366
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:36,880
Speaker 1: It was so well worded, I think it. Yeah. This

1367
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:40,920
Speaker 1: this gentleman describes himself as someone who has been intimately

1368
01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 1: involved in the commission appointments and Arizona wildlife policy. He

1369
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:51,760
Speaker 1: wrote in a bullet pointed email. He goes on to

1370
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:56,360
Speaker 1: say the rhetoric that Arizona votes to eliminate governor's tags

1371
01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:00,800
Speaker 1: is wrong. Okay, how are that'd be true? Well, he

1372
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:05,280
Speaker 1: says this, Arizona has quote special big game tags which

1373
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:08,840
Speaker 1: are administered by the Game and Fish Department along with

1374
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:13,440
Speaker 1: other tags, rather than the more political administration of governor's

1375
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:18,200
Speaker 1: tags and other states. Okay, so he's saying they don't

1376
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:20,760
Speaker 1: actually have a thing. They don't have a pool called

1377
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:26,439
Speaker 1: governor's tags. They have special big game tags. He's getting

1378
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: a little bit into semantics here, but that's fine. The

1379
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:34,320
Speaker 1: Arizona Game and Fish Commission did not eliminate special big

1380
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 1: game tags. They voted to phase out the practice of

1381
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:44,600
Speaker 1: allocating these tags through an auction process in order to

1382
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:47,679
Speaker 1: rely more on raffles. So he is making a semantic argument.

1383
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:54,360
Speaker 1: They don't call them governor's tags, but in defense of

1384
01:22:54,400 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 1: our language, they are functional Colloquially, they are colloquially functionally

1385
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:01,520
Speaker 1: govern tags. Well, it's not the governor.

1386
01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 5: When you think of a governor's tag, that's what it

1387
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:04,200
Speaker 5: looks like.

1388
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:04,719
Speaker 1: It's an auction.

1389
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,320
Speaker 4: Now is the will the raffle? Do they believe the

1390
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:09,839
Speaker 4: raffle will bring in equivalent funds?

1391
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 2: What did the Montana to be determined?

1392
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:17,880
Speaker 1: I don't think so, But let me go on, since

1393
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:21,000
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. This is the same individual since

1394
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:25,519
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. Auction tags. Okay, so what we've

1395
01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 1: been calling governor's tags. Auction tags have accounted for seventy

1396
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:34,920
Speaker 1: percent of the thirty two point four million dollars raised

1397
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:42,040
Speaker 1: by special tags, with raffle tags raising thirty percent, or

1398
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 1: nearly ten million dollars.

1399
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:48,439
Speaker 2: What my question would be how many tags were auctioned

1400
01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:49,639
Speaker 2: and how many were raffled?

1401
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:53,559
Speaker 1: I was wondering the same thing. I wish this email

1402
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,880
Speaker 1: got into that, But he gives information where you would

1403
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:59,240
Speaker 1: go find it, because he sends in a whole slide

1404
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 1: presentation on the subject. Now he goes on to say,

1405
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:05,759
Speaker 1: while the sheep and meal deer tags have generated eye

1406
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 1: popping headlines, the department's data shows that for other species,

1407
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:16,000
Speaker 1: including turkey, bison, coosier, black bear, mountain lion, have Alina

1408
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 1: pronghorn raffle tags generate more than auction tags. Okay, so

1409
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:31,600
Speaker 1: it's species dependent. He has another thing, the notion that

1410
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:35,240
Speaker 1: Arizona and now I don't think he got this from us,

1411
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:43,280
Speaker 1: but the notion that Arizona is becoming purple and therefore

1412
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 1: the Commission's being influenced by anti hunting interests is flat

1413
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,200
Speaker 1: out wrong. Oh I know where this came from. There's

1414
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:55,720
Speaker 1: a guy that's coming on the podcast, and I'm gonna

1415
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 1: let him put this in his own phrasing. We have

1416
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:00,160
Speaker 1: a guest in the future coming on the podcast who

1417
01:25:00,240 --> 01:25:04,479
Speaker 1: felt that the move against governor's tags was a anti

1418
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:10,840
Speaker 1: hunting thing. Okay, and I might have quoted him on

1419
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 1: that anti like that. It's anti hunters arguing against governor's tags.

1420
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,679
Speaker 1: How dare they auction off the life of an animal.

1421
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:26,600
Speaker 1: Oh but this individual who will be coming on the

1422
01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:28,559
Speaker 1: podcast expressed to me, I don't want to say his

1423
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:30,720
Speaker 1: name because it was a private conversation and I don't

1424
01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:33,280
Speaker 1: want to quote him on it, expressed to me that

1425
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 1: he felt like it was a loss to the anti hunters. Hmmm, interesting,

1426
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 1: this guy says that's flat out wrong. The commissioners very

1427
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:49,320
Speaker 1: very clearly articulated their reasons for taking this step. Retired

1428
01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:56,320
Speaker 1: US Army Lieutenant General Jeff Buchanan said he understood the

1429
01:25:56,439 --> 01:26:03,400
Speaker 1: argument that the ends justify the means, meaning he understands

1430
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:05,479
Speaker 1: the argument that, hey, it's a lot of money, but

1431
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:09,720
Speaker 1: it's not democratic. And he says, we cannot compromise our

1432
01:26:09,800 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 1: values to make money, meaning it might be ugly to

1433
01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:17,519
Speaker 1: auction off hunting opportunities when you have people that in

1434
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 1: ways in which it excludes the general population. Sure, but

1435
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 1: that's true, but it's a compromise of our values. Therefore

1436
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 1: the money shouldn't matter. He also cited founding principles of

1437
01:26:32,479 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 1: this nation and inserting that we should not be setting

1438
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:41,280
Speaker 1: aside a special privilege for the rich and elite. He

1439
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:44,960
Speaker 1: spent thirty seven years in the military. That's not what

1440
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 1: he was there defending. Okay, he was not there to

1441
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:52,680
Speaker 1: defend special privileges for the rich and elite. He was

1442
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 1: there to defend all Americans, which influenced his decision that

1443
01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:08,200
Speaker 1: governor tags are on American Former chair James Sorry, I'm

1444
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 1: gonna mutilate this name. James Goner was cited, among other concerns,

1445
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 1: the concentration of these tags in just a few hands,

1446
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:29,519
Speaker 1: meaning check this out. Thirty six governor's tags have fallen

1447
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:38,000
Speaker 1: into the hands of three individuals. Wow, which is also

1448
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:44,799
Speaker 1: in the slide. He goes on to say these individuals

1449
01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:50,720
Speaker 1: are not sympathetic to anti hunting advocates. Should I keep

1450
01:27:50,760 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 1: going about this guy? This guy's good.

1451
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean it's all I'll get info.

1452
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:58,080
Speaker 1: I served as a policy advisor to the previous Arizona

1453
01:27:58,160 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 1: governor and was personally involved in the selection of several

1454
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:04,800
Speaker 1: of these commissioners. I am intimately familiar with the process

1455
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:09,960
Speaker 1: for the appointment of the others and can state confidently confident. Yeah,

1456
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:13,439
Speaker 1: I can state confidently. Why am I saying I can

1457
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:20,240
Speaker 1: say confident, But he's saying he can state with confidence.

1458
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:23,599
Speaker 1: There you go that the wishes of anti hunters played

1459
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 1: no role in these appointments. I was similarly, similarly, very

1460
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 1: closely involved in the banning of trail cameras in the

1461
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:37,240
Speaker 1: state for taking of wildlife. As we're a number of

1462
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 1: these commissioners, I can tell you personally that the decision

1463
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 1: was driven by hunters for the benefit of hunters and

1464
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:50,960
Speaker 1: our model of wildlife conservation. To see either of these

1465
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 1: actions as being motivated by anti hunting forces is just

1466
01:28:55,400 --> 01:29:02,840
Speaker 1: flat out wrong. Yeah shuck, I like that guy. Yep,

1467
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 1: it's good. Email Okay, who wants to do? Email number two?

1468
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:11,280
Speaker 3: I can read it. I haven't read it before.

1469
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:14,160
Speaker 1: Who I'm looking forward to? Email number three?

1470
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:16,720
Speaker 3: This is from Mark, not the guy that's sitting next

1471
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:19,759
Speaker 3: to me, but he describes himself as a spare time

1472
01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:25,599
Speaker 3: economist and a spare time hunter. The idea that governor's

1473
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:29,240
Speaker 3: tags or any other market mechanisms to manage scarce wildlife

1474
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 3: resources counter the democratic allocation pillar of the North American

1475
01:29:33,960 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 3: model of wildlife conservation is a misconception held by many

1476
01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:42,160
Speaker 3: conservationists and hunters. When discussing a scarce resource like a

1477
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:45,720
Speaker 3: big horn, cheap tag, a random draw isn't democratic in

1478
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 3: the same way electing a president is everyone doesn't vote

1479
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 3: for who gets the tag. John Stikovich of Cleveland, Ohio

1480
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 3: isn't the favorite to win because he saved an eleven

1481
01:29:57,040 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 3: month old baby from a burning building and deserves that

1482
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 3: the most parentheses. True stories, random draws are just one

1483
01:30:04,880 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 3: imperfect way to allocate resources when demand exceed supply. It

1484
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:14,840
Speaker 3: just so happens that that it is an indisputably suboptimal

1485
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 3: way to do so.

1486
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:21,800
Speaker 1: No, he's contradicting himself. A merit based system is not

1487
01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:26,479
Speaker 1: democratic in this case. That's merit based. Does he ever

1488
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 1: think we're going to hold an election to see who

1489
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:30,519
Speaker 1: gets the governor's day.

1490
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:34,439
Speaker 3: Everybody's essays need to be to do it now. The

1491
01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:36,400
Speaker 3: debate's going to be held halfway through.

1492
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:41,240
Speaker 5: It's democratic in the sense of everyone's equal before the law,

1493
01:30:41,439 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 5: like democratic culture voting one.

1494
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,960
Speaker 1: If the governor was given the tag and the governor

1495
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:54,640
Speaker 1: could honor a person who deserved it on merit, it

1496
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:57,840
Speaker 1: would open up big problems with cronyism.

1497
01:30:58,560 --> 01:30:59,880
Speaker 2: Wouldn't raise money either.

1498
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 1: But get.

1499
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:07,160
Speaker 3: He's saying the market will decide who's right or wrong.

1500
01:31:13,720 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 3: You shouldn't take seriously state game agencies complaining about managing

1501
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 3: white tailed dough populations while still charging for licenses to

1502
01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 3: hunt them. If they were really felt that there were

1503
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:28,600
Speaker 3: too many deer on the landscape, they would reimburse hunters

1504
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 3: for shooting. Does not charge them?

1505
01:31:30,280 --> 01:31:39,200
Speaker 1: All right, I'm done. In general, there was zeno state agency.

1506
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:42,720
Speaker 3: In general, game agencies unwillingness to manage.

1507
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:44,479
Speaker 1: That they had to run out of deficit. Not that

1508
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:48,679
Speaker 1: state agencies can get revenue to fund biologists. How about

1509
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 1: the state agency with now that we've stripped its funding

1510
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:58,679
Speaker 1: source anyways, now needs to pay people to hunt? Does yeah?

1511
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:10,360
Speaker 3: Oh, I am as Steve put it a way ass

1512
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 3: pro governor's tag person who wants to read that one

1513
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 3: I can jump the brod well.

1514
01:32:19,240 --> 01:32:21,880
Speaker 2: It may be true that people used to have a

1515
01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:26,240
Speaker 2: we're all in it together attitude, and that years ago

1516
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:29,080
Speaker 2: one was not able to pay extra to skip lines

1517
01:32:29,120 --> 01:32:33,879
Speaker 2: at Disneyland or bored an airplane faster. This tear system

1518
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 2: is most certainly not new. An argument could be made

1519
01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 2: that the average American today is is today more aware

1520
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 2: of the financial tier systems that inherently exists in a

1521
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:48,160
Speaker 2: capital society than they were thirty, forty or fifty years ago.

1522
01:32:49,040 --> 01:32:51,280
Speaker 2: But the fact that rich people are able to buy

1523
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:54,440
Speaker 2: things that are either coveted or rare and thus expensive,

1524
01:32:54,560 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 2: while poor middle class people are unable to buy such things.

1525
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:01,280
Speaker 2: Is in no way a surprise to anyone, nor has

1526
01:33:01,320 --> 01:33:04,720
Speaker 2: it ever been a surprise to anyone. The foundation of

1527
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:09,639
Speaker 2: this argument is what exact is exactly equal opportunity means,

1528
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:13,600
Speaker 2: and where it exists in our North American model of

1529
01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:21,920
Speaker 2: wildlife conservation. I'm not following that regarding the draw system,

1530
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:25,920
Speaker 2: which is integral to our conservation model, equal opportunity means

1531
01:33:25,920 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 2: that every American has an equal right to apply. It

1532
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:32,600
Speaker 2: does not mean that every American has an equal ability

1533
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:36,000
Speaker 2: to apply. Someone who asks the financial means to apply

1534
01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:38,639
Speaker 2: across multiple states of which they are not a resident

1535
01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 2: stands a much greater chance of being successful in a

1536
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 2: draw by virtue of having entered more draws. In the opposite,

1537
01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:48,479
Speaker 2: someone who does not have the financial means has a

1538
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:53,759
Speaker 2: significantly lower probability of successfully drawing a tag. There's inherent

1539
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:58,519
Speaker 2: inequality in this, but it is in financial ability, not

1540
01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:02,879
Speaker 2: opportunity to apply. In the very same vein he's gonna.

1541
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:05,120
Speaker 1: Get to this, he's gonna get to And since anyone

1542
01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:06,920
Speaker 1: can bid on a governor's.

1543
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:10,799
Speaker 2: Sag right in the very same vein. Everyone has afforded

1544
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:13,719
Speaker 2: the equal opportunity to write of bidding on a governor's tag.

1545
01:34:13,800 --> 01:34:18,559
Speaker 2: Yet not everyone is afforded an equal financial ability. The

1546
01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:21,560
Speaker 2: person with a greater financial means will be more successful

1547
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:25,760
Speaker 2: in terms of attaining a tag. The buck stops here there.

1548
01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 1: I think you know what? Can you read his last sentence?

1549
01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:28,680
Speaker 3: Uh?

1550
01:34:29,360 --> 01:34:32,519
Speaker 2: There's a litany of other pro governor's tag arguments, but

1551
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:36,440
Speaker 2: I believe this to be the most compelling. Sincerely, Sexton.

1552
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:41,080
Speaker 1: Now when I hear a name like Saxton, you're immediately suspicious.

1553
01:34:41,280 --> 01:34:46,800
Speaker 1: He's got grease, he's got jingle. Of course, Saxton name

1554
01:34:46,920 --> 01:34:51,320
Speaker 1: Saxons because rich people know how to name their kids

1555
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:52,559
Speaker 1: to sound rich.

1556
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:59,000
Speaker 3: Right, you don't get that like this is this is

1557
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:00,800
Speaker 3: a better argument.

1558
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:04,240
Speaker 2: It is a better argument, but the whole like where

1559
01:35:04,280 --> 01:35:07,080
Speaker 2: it exists in our North American model, Like, you know,

1560
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 2: it's not the King's deer, so I'm not sure what

1561
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:10,799
Speaker 2: he's getting.

1562
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean this, right, is an argument that

1563
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:18,200
Speaker 3: you could apply to anything. Right, It's like, well, the

1564
01:35:18,320 --> 01:35:22,080
Speaker 3: systems messed up, Yeah, so why pick on this part

1565
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:24,840
Speaker 3: of the system, cherry pick this when this is our

1566
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:29,280
Speaker 3: messed up over here too. If you're really invested in

1567
01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:33,599
Speaker 3: making it equitable and democratic, then you need to tear

1568
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:34,920
Speaker 3: down this part of the system.

1569
01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:38,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sum up email for yep. I was gonna

1570
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:44,280
Speaker 1: sum it up. Y'all's jealous. People jealous about all kinds

1571
01:35:44,320 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 1: of stuff. They don't realize they're jealous. Y'all's jealous of

1572
01:35:46,840 --> 01:35:48,800
Speaker 1: people who can buy governor's tags. That's what this is

1573
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:51,240
Speaker 1: all about, yep.

1574
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:55,519
Speaker 5: I mean, I think the one of the things that

1575
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:59,720
Speaker 5: the argument about, if you can't afford it, you're just

1576
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 5: why is that we own the wildlife right, and so

1577
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:06,320
Speaker 5: it's not the same as like going to Disneyland and

1578
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:10,760
Speaker 5: paying to cut in line. It's a public resource and

1579
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:13,280
Speaker 5: everybody has a right to say how they think it

1580
01:36:13,320 --> 01:36:14,160
Speaker 5: should be managed.

1581
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:19,760
Speaker 1: This guy goes on here's email number five. He's like, hey, man,

1582
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm torn. Here's a couple of questions. Why is there

1583
01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:26,439
Speaker 1: only one tag? If one tag is worth six hundred,

1584
01:36:26,439 --> 01:36:35,840
Speaker 1: then why not sell two tags for one point two million? Two?

1585
01:36:36,200 --> 01:36:38,920
Speaker 1: His second question is the amount raised? Truly the thing

1586
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:42,840
Speaker 1: that allows this to be considered If the tag went

1587
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 1: for twenty thousand dollars one year rather than six hundred

1588
01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:51,559
Speaker 1: dollars six hundred thousand, would it still be worth violating

1589
01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:56,360
Speaker 1: the North American conservation model or is it the amount

1590
01:36:56,479 --> 01:36:57,040
Speaker 1: of money?

1591
01:36:59,080 --> 01:36:59,320
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1592
01:36:59,320 --> 01:36:59,680
Speaker 1: What what?

1593
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:06,599
Speaker 3: There's definitely a threshold. Yeah, definitely threshold. All good questions,

1594
01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:07,080
Speaker 3: he believed.

1595
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:11,720
Speaker 1: Here's another question he's got. I believe asking our governor's

1596
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:16,760
Speaker 1: tag's good hides behind words the truth. The true question, then,

1597
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:22,479
Speaker 1: is are our ethical beliefs for sale? In pointing out

1598
01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:25,640
Speaker 1: this threshold. We'll do it for six, we'll do it

1599
01:37:25,720 --> 01:37:28,440
Speaker 1: lest it, not do extremes. We'll do it for two hundred,

1600
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 1: not gonna do that for ten? Okay, uh yeah, At

1601
01:37:34,280 --> 01:37:36,559
Speaker 1: what point do we go, like, well, for that amount

1602
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:38,280
Speaker 1: of money? I think there's a movie about this one.

1603
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:43,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Demi Moore, some guy. Yeah, they're like a

1604
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:46,120
Speaker 1: loyal couple, but she could get a bunch of grease,

1605
01:37:47,680 --> 01:37:55,880
Speaker 1: which is slang for jingle, which is slang for night

1606
01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:56,720
Speaker 1: with everyone has a price.

1607
01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,200
Speaker 3: Leaving Las Vegas. Not leaving Las Vegas was the.

1608
01:38:00,920 --> 01:38:04,920
Speaker 5: You know that one movie that Nick Cage did, Raising Arizona.

1609
01:38:05,200 --> 01:38:08,040
Speaker 2: I think you can just the opposite though. If it

1610
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:11,439
Speaker 2: was only twenty thousand, people be like, oh that's cool,

1611
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:13,720
Speaker 2: But it would they wouldn't get so pissed.

1612
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:16,879
Speaker 1: Because of because of email number four, because y'all's jealous

1613
01:38:18,439 --> 01:38:22,040
Speaker 1: and you're and you're more jealous of a dude with

1614
01:38:22,240 --> 01:38:23,440
Speaker 1: massive grease.

1615
01:38:23,280 --> 01:38:26,880
Speaker 2: Totally, because you're like, I know that seven hundred thousand

1616
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:31,320
Speaker 2: for that antelope island mule deer tag, Like it's like

1617
01:38:31,439 --> 01:38:33,280
Speaker 2: a drop in the bucket for that guy. He didn't

1618
01:38:33,320 --> 01:38:33,720
Speaker 2: give a shit.

1619
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:35,120
Speaker 1: What if it went the opposite way though?

1620
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:37,920
Speaker 4: What if what if I told you that such and

1621
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:41,280
Speaker 4: such a Saxon guy was going to put in thirty

1622
01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 4: million dollars enough to pay double the entire Saxon bombuler

1623
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:49,479
Speaker 4: the seven Yeah, what if it was such an astronomical

1624
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:52,599
Speaker 4: amount that it could change everything that state was able

1625
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:54,439
Speaker 4: to do? Is there is there a tier where it's

1626
01:38:54,479 --> 01:38:56,800
Speaker 4: like undeniably useful we have right?

1627
01:38:56,920 --> 01:38:58,920
Speaker 1: I mean, if someone said, hey, man, I'm going to

1628
01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:02,040
Speaker 1: give you a billion dollar and you can take that

1629
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:04,800
Speaker 1: billion dollars and spend it on wildlife habitat. But here's

1630
01:39:04,840 --> 01:39:06,559
Speaker 1: the rub, I'm gonna shoot one of them.

1631
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:10,960
Speaker 5: She's and that she would have died that winter anyway.

1632
01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:13,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're giving musks and my das here.

1633
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:20,200
Speaker 7: Would you just said no, no, no, no, we should

1634
01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:26,160
Speaker 7: introduce into evidence the Montana Bha experiment this year.

1635
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, then we're gonna finish Krinn wrote end.

1636
01:39:30,400 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 3: Which is which is raffle the auction, right, And and

1637
01:39:35,920 --> 01:39:39,679
Speaker 3: I think there's a bunch of ways that I find

1638
01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:46,559
Speaker 3: to be like irrefutable that this should If we're gonna

1639
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:49,519
Speaker 3: do fundraising this way, it should be through raffle, not

1640
01:39:49,560 --> 01:39:50,040
Speaker 3: through auction.

1641
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:54,800
Speaker 1: And like.

1642
01:39:56,720 --> 01:40:01,640
Speaker 3: The wild cheap situation is the best example that we have, right, Like,

1643
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:07,439
Speaker 3: there's no data out there that says, you know, a

1644
01:40:07,439 --> 01:40:09,519
Speaker 3: hell of a lot more people would be invested in

1645
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 3: big horn cheap conservation if they had some way to

1646
01:40:18,080 --> 01:40:23,000
Speaker 3: access bighorn sheep or even the opportunity at big horns.

1647
01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:25,200
Speaker 1: There's no data supporting that.

1648
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:29,880
Speaker 3: Right, But you're like, Okay, you could have your name

1649
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:33,679
Speaker 3: in the hat for a big horn sheep tag for

1650
01:40:34,360 --> 01:40:40,720
Speaker 3: five bucks, but that chance doesn't really exist, right. But

1651
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:42,720
Speaker 3: at the same time, like once a year, we all

1652
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:46,280
Speaker 3: gather in a room and we pat each other on

1653
01:40:46,320 --> 01:40:50,040
Speaker 3: the backs by being like that dude is getting his

1654
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:58,080
Speaker 3: third World Slam of sheep. What a conservationist, right, And

1655
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:02,040
Speaker 3: he'd I mean six hundred and fifty thousand dollars ah

1656
01:41:02,080 --> 01:41:10,160
Speaker 3: what a conservationist. Right, That same conservationist can buy six

1657
01:41:10,240 --> 01:41:13,360
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of raffle tickets, right

1658
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:17,559
Speaker 3: and be like, what a great conservationist. He's just not

1659
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:19,400
Speaker 3: guaranteed the sheep hunt to go with it.

1660
01:41:19,600 --> 01:41:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, here's the thing though, My wife recently bid

1661
01:41:24,439 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 1: on a thing where you get to go get donuts

1662
01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:31,719
Speaker 1: with the school resource officer and a fundraiser for the school. Yep,

1663
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:39,679
Speaker 1: it's like donuts with Tom the cop. Uh. She could

1664
01:41:39,680 --> 01:41:41,680
Speaker 1: have just given that money, not gone to donuts with

1665
01:41:41,720 --> 01:41:42,120
Speaker 1: that cop.

1666
01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:48,000
Speaker 3: But he's super good looking, but he listens to her

1667
01:41:50,080 --> 01:41:53,360
Speaker 3: dropping on the neighboring tables one thousand attention.

1668
01:41:56,280 --> 01:41:59,639
Speaker 1: It was actually, Uh, the intention was that our kids

1669
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:01,360
Speaker 1: would get to go get donuts with the cops. I

1670
01:42:01,360 --> 01:42:02,680
Speaker 1: don't like this. I don't like this.

1671
01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:05,519
Speaker 3: It seems like.

1672
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:10,439
Speaker 1: Is to go to donuts with the cops in order

1673
01:42:10,479 --> 01:42:10,960
Speaker 1: to be heard.

1674
01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:17,240
Speaker 3: Okay. So the Montana example that that Randall brought up,

1675
01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:23,679
Speaker 3: Montana BHA gets the statewide mule deer tag this year

1676
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:27,439
Speaker 3: and and typically the state will give it to different

1677
01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:34,280
Speaker 3: conservation groups as that fundraising mechanism the very typical way

1678
01:42:34,280 --> 01:42:37,880
Speaker 3: of fundraising with the tag, right, the conservation group doesn't

1679
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:41,920
Speaker 3: get the money from the tag. The conservation group gets

1680
01:42:42,040 --> 01:42:45,160
Speaker 3: to use that tag as kind of like the carrot

1681
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:51,719
Speaker 3: to bait folks into a fancy banquet where that tag

1682
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:52,559
Speaker 3: gets auctioned off.

1683
01:42:52,640 --> 01:42:54,280
Speaker 1: Oh that's how that works.

1684
01:42:54,800 --> 01:42:56,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then they's like.

1685
01:42:56,320 --> 01:42:57,760
Speaker 4: Raff off a bunch of other things, and then they

1686
01:42:57,840 --> 01:42:59,440
Speaker 4: raffle off a bunch of other things.

1687
01:42:59,160 --> 01:42:59,800
Speaker 1: To make their money.

1688
01:43:00,160 --> 01:43:05,200
Speaker 3: But this it's a decoy, yes, really, yeah, yep, because

1689
01:43:05,400 --> 01:43:06,719
Speaker 3: you know, I don't.

1690
01:43:06,479 --> 01:43:08,040
Speaker 1: Know how I thought it worked, but I didn't know

1691
01:43:08,080 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 1: that well.

1692
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:11,840
Speaker 3: Because arguments like this, right, these states that have those

1693
01:43:12,040 --> 01:43:15,479
Speaker 3: those tags, that money has got to go back to

1694
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:19,480
Speaker 3: the conservation of that species, for the habitat of that species,

1695
01:43:19,479 --> 01:43:23,839
Speaker 3: for the benefit of bighorn cheap or moose or goats

1696
01:43:24,280 --> 01:43:24,599
Speaker 3: or mule.

1697
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:28,680
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, everything you're saying makes sense as their thought.

1698
01:43:28,720 --> 01:43:31,000
Speaker 5: I think they get a cut, or they can take

1699
01:43:31,040 --> 01:43:31,639
Speaker 5: a cut.

1700
01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:37,679
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, there's like the but it's outlined in here, right, you're.

1701
01:43:37,560 --> 01:43:40,000
Speaker 1: Right, it doesn't go into their general fund, right, the.

1702
01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:45,759
Speaker 3: Handling fee, so you know, yep, it's twenty bucks a chance,

1703
01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:49,599
Speaker 3: but your card gets danged for twenty two fifty type

1704
01:43:49,600 --> 01:43:57,040
Speaker 3: of thing. So anyway, what was interesting here is like

1705
01:43:57,120 --> 01:43:59,200
Speaker 3: we talked about like you put in six hundred thousand

1706
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:01,559
Speaker 3: dollars at auction, but you could put six hundred thousand

1707
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:04,160
Speaker 3: dollars into the raffle if you really wanted to do that.

1708
01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:10,840
Speaker 3: Nobody did that. So historically the highest price the Montanas,

1709
01:44:10,880 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 3: the statewide Montana mule deer tag has ever gone for,

1710
01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:17,400
Speaker 3: was forty one thousand dollars. A lot of money for

1711
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:20,040
Speaker 3: mule deer tag. Nowhere nearer the amount of money that

1712
01:44:20,400 --> 01:44:22,760
Speaker 3: mule deer tags and other states go for it to.

1713
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:26,960
Speaker 1: We don't have that kind of mild are yeah, because

1714
01:44:27,000 --> 01:44:29,280
Speaker 1: we get to hunt them all through the front.

1715
01:44:32,280 --> 01:44:39,240
Speaker 3: Well, the raffle version raised fifty six swenty dollars, a

1716
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:45,479
Speaker 3: thirty eight percent increase from the all time high. And

1717
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:52,240
Speaker 3: what's interesting is the the mean purchase price was forty

1718
01:44:52,280 --> 01:44:59,640
Speaker 3: three dollars, so kind of on average, two chances to

1719
01:44:59,760 --> 01:45:03,760
Speaker 3: name in the hat per participant, yep, right, so you know,

1720
01:45:04,040 --> 01:45:10,639
Speaker 3: very equitable. It was spread really evenly amongst the people

1721
01:45:10,680 --> 01:45:13,160
Speaker 3: who chose to participate.

1722
01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:15,200
Speaker 1: Tank of gas ranging to two tanks of gas, and

1723
01:45:15,200 --> 01:45:16,040
Speaker 1: the guys, the guy.

1724
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:19,479
Speaker 5: Who actually won, The guy who actually won spent like

1725
01:45:19,640 --> 01:45:22,000
Speaker 5: under one hundred dollars or something. He spent one hundred

1726
01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:23,719
Speaker 5: bucks on tickets.

1727
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:26,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, he spent one hundred bucks through the winner.

1728
01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:28,760
Speaker 1: I think that that could be the start of the arms, right,

1729
01:45:28,800 --> 01:45:31,400
Speaker 1: I think that in that case, you made more off

1730
01:45:31,439 --> 01:45:34,479
Speaker 1: a mule around raffle in Montana. I don't think that

1731
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:36,439
Speaker 1: you would that that's that's not going to hold true

1732
01:45:36,439 --> 01:45:37,360
Speaker 1: in big horns.

1733
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:41,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like I would love to see that. So

1734
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:49,360
Speaker 3: if the marketing mechanism were to change from curating individual

1735
01:45:49,400 --> 01:45:54,280
Speaker 3: donors with super deep pockets, right, like you don't hold

1736
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:58,240
Speaker 3: a raffle or an auction like that and being like,

1737
01:45:58,320 --> 01:46:01,000
Speaker 3: oh my god, a totally random person off the street

1738
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:03,000
Speaker 3: walked in here and bought that thing. Can you believe that?

1739
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:03,519
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1740
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:04,840
Speaker 3: Is not done right?

1741
01:46:05,360 --> 01:46:07,200
Speaker 1: You know the.

1742
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:12,240
Speaker 3: Person or the top two people who are going to

1743
01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:12,760
Speaker 3: end up with.

1744
01:46:12,720 --> 01:46:14,680
Speaker 1: They're in communication with the people that are going to

1745
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:15,000
Speaker 1: buy it.

1746
01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:23,600
Speaker 3: Yes, yep. So if you took that level of effort

1747
01:46:23,880 --> 01:46:27,280
Speaker 3: and did a nationwide.

1748
01:46:28,120 --> 01:46:32,760
Speaker 2: Ideally what's five hundred thousand at fifty bucks an entry.

1749
01:46:33,280 --> 01:46:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just a matter of removing some number of zeros.

1750
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:40,120
Speaker 2: And like, would you get that many people to do it?

1751
01:46:40,160 --> 01:46:40,920
Speaker 2: I bet you would.

1752
01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:44,680
Speaker 3: Well, but and you advertise to these areas that are like,

1753
01:46:44,920 --> 01:46:47,320
Speaker 3: I am so detached from big horn sheep, I don't

1754
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:51,200
Speaker 3: even participate, right, And I'm just saying, like, anecdotally, in

1755
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:57,320
Speaker 3: the state of Montana, as we increased the bar price

1756
01:46:57,400 --> 01:47:03,280
Speaker 3: wise for these speed that are very very limited, right,

1757
01:47:03,360 --> 01:47:06,360
Speaker 3: the supply demand that we already talked about. I had

1758
01:47:06,439 --> 01:47:12,559
Speaker 3: people within my personal circle that there was never ever

1759
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:14,960
Speaker 3: a question, nor would there ever be a question of

1760
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:17,720
Speaker 3: how serious a hunter they are. But they were just

1761
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:20,080
Speaker 3: like unpriced out of the game, and they just made

1762
01:47:20,080 --> 01:47:23,040
Speaker 3: that decision early on. I can't float two hundred and

1763
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:26,120
Speaker 3: fifty bucks out there for a chance. I'm just going

1764
01:47:26,200 --> 01:47:29,880
Speaker 3: to concentrate on other things. So I mean, whether you

1765
01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:32,679
Speaker 3: think that's a significant number or not, that is happening.

1766
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:37,920
Speaker 3: So I want to know if we said, here's the

1767
01:47:37,920 --> 01:47:41,640
Speaker 3: places that don't participate in the conservation of this species,

1768
01:47:42,520 --> 01:47:45,080
Speaker 3: and we put our efforts into saying like, okay, here's

1769
01:47:45,080 --> 01:47:50,880
Speaker 3: a way, would that then lead to greater participation in

1770
01:47:50,960 --> 01:47:53,160
Speaker 3: the conservation of that species in general?

1771
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:54,000
Speaker 1: Right?

1772
01:47:54,080 --> 01:47:58,360
Speaker 3: Because well, I had threw five dollars in and then

1773
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:00,439
Speaker 3: I read some stuff on big horn sheep, and boy,

1774
01:48:00,479 --> 01:48:03,800
Speaker 3: I like that idea. Now I'm just a little more

1775
01:48:03,800 --> 01:48:04,720
Speaker 3: invested than I was.

1776
01:48:04,880 --> 01:48:05,320
Speaker 1: You know that.

1777
01:48:05,360 --> 01:48:07,080
Speaker 4: You know that sheep day we went to at the

1778
01:48:07,120 --> 01:48:09,640
Speaker 4: Hunt Expo where we put in our raffle tickets and

1779
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:11,840
Speaker 4: sat there. I've never thought about and cared about sheep

1780
01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:13,160
Speaker 4: so much as I did for that hour.

1781
01:48:15,040 --> 01:48:17,240
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say this on the raffle front,

1782
01:48:17,760 --> 01:48:21,840
Speaker 1: even if you do a big horned sheep, it's not

1783
01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:25,800
Speaker 1: a question of It's definitely not a question of do

1784
01:48:25,840 --> 01:48:31,559
Speaker 1: we want four hundred thousand dollars or zero? Yeah, it's

1785
01:48:31,640 --> 01:48:37,000
Speaker 1: probably some question of do we want four hundred or

1786
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:41,479
Speaker 1: two fifty or four hundred or two or whatever the

1787
01:48:41,479 --> 01:48:43,639
Speaker 1: hell it is. It's not like you're giving to move

1788
01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:45,720
Speaker 1: to a raffle or you're not giving up the whole thing.

1789
01:48:46,400 --> 01:48:50,880
Speaker 1: You're giving up probably something, but you're not losing the

1790
01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:54,200
Speaker 1: whole thing. Well, I mean, you're gaining a public participation.

1791
01:48:54,280 --> 01:48:58,599
Speaker 5: I believe that Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation for that state

1792
01:48:58,600 --> 01:49:03,479
Speaker 5: wide tag they switch every other year. I believe so

1793
01:49:03,720 --> 01:49:06,280
Speaker 5: they one year they auction it, than the next year

1794
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:07,200
Speaker 5: they raffle it.

1795
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:13,240
Speaker 1: Yep. I how you put that Wall Street Main Street?

1796
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:17,720
Speaker 3: There you go brand, but there's no there's just like

1797
01:49:17,920 --> 01:49:23,439
Speaker 3: I feel like, by I mean, look at look at

1798
01:49:23,479 --> 01:49:28,559
Speaker 3: the state of skiing in the United States right these

1799
01:49:28,600 --> 01:49:31,599
Speaker 3: major veil Oh, there's only.

1800
01:49:31,439 --> 01:49:34,559
Speaker 2: Two ski companies left in the whole country.

1801
01:49:34,120 --> 01:49:37,840
Speaker 3: And they have made a very public decision to raise

1802
01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:42,479
Speaker 3: prices cater to fewer customers year over year, at at

1803
01:49:42,479 --> 01:49:45,320
Speaker 3: a higher price to that customer. And that's just the

1804
01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:48,160
Speaker 3: way skiing is going to be, right, I mean, I

1805
01:49:48,200 --> 01:49:52,479
Speaker 3: think that that is a very good example of where hunting,

1806
01:49:53,000 --> 01:49:56,320
Speaker 3: at least right now for certain species already is. And

1807
01:49:56,360 --> 01:49:58,679
Speaker 3: it went that way a long time ago. Right, It's

1808
01:49:58,720 --> 01:50:02,080
Speaker 3: like I always remind people when I'm in that cheap auction,

1809
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:09,080
Speaker 3: I'm like, what's fun here is the percentage of people

1810
01:50:09,120 --> 01:50:12,479
Speaker 3: who have ever actually had a sheep tag that are

1811
01:50:12,479 --> 01:50:15,400
Speaker 3: in this room right now? This whole industry is here,

1812
01:50:16,400 --> 01:50:23,000
Speaker 3: but relative like the amount of actual sheep hunters very very.

1813
01:50:22,800 --> 01:50:25,240
Speaker 1: Few, yep. But see that guy back there, he got

1814
01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:28,760
Speaker 1: six yeah.

1815
01:50:28,040 --> 01:50:31,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, And we're like and you know, and it's this

1816
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:37,080
Speaker 3: thing that we're expected to celebrate, and like, are we

1817
01:50:37,200 --> 01:50:39,840
Speaker 3: just so far down the road that we can't go

1818
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:41,800
Speaker 3: back and be like, man, we got to try something else,

1819
01:50:42,160 --> 01:50:46,519
Speaker 3: because it turns out relatively very few people actually give

1820
01:50:46,560 --> 01:50:50,479
Speaker 3: a shit about sheep because they just will never get one.

1821
01:50:51,240 --> 01:50:53,800
Speaker 3: And we talk about so I have a lifetime license

1822
01:50:54,040 --> 01:50:57,559
Speaker 3: in Idaho, which gives me the privilege of having my

1823
01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:03,680
Speaker 3: name in the sheep draw as a resident, which is

1824
01:51:03,760 --> 01:51:07,559
Speaker 3: I believe. Still, if you're applying as a resident in

1825
01:51:07,600 --> 01:51:10,920
Speaker 3: the state of Idaho for bighorn sheep, that is the

1826
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:14,800
Speaker 3: best odds of drawing bighorn sheep in the US. Still,

1827
01:51:14,840 --> 01:51:20,360
Speaker 3: I think, depending on your unit. Every year I talk

1828
01:51:20,400 --> 01:51:24,160
Speaker 3: about how stupid I am. I should be applying for

1829
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:27,720
Speaker 3: badass mule deer tags in Idaho every year because mathematically

1830
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:31,479
Speaker 3: I will not draw that tag. But I know people

1831
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:37,280
Speaker 3: who have right and they're at this point like huge

1832
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:39,840
Speaker 3: chip on my shoulder. I'd much rather draw or a

1833
01:51:40,360 --> 01:51:45,080
Speaker 3: bighorn sheep tag than buy one, because it's like that's

1834
01:51:45,080 --> 01:51:45,920
Speaker 3: where the hunt is.

1835
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:48,400
Speaker 1: It's more fun.

1836
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:51,720
Speaker 3: Oh, it's more fun. Yeah, for sure. So I don't know.

1837
01:51:51,800 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 1: I think.

1838
01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:59,200
Speaker 3: This is a legitimate issue with the hunting system in America,

1839
01:51:59,280 --> 01:52:04,679
Speaker 3: Like we've already made the decision to just reserve elite

1840
01:52:04,760 --> 01:52:10,240
Speaker 3: opportunities for folks with elite bank accounts, and I don't

1841
01:52:10,280 --> 01:52:13,559
Speaker 3: believe that's right. In any way, shape or form, and

1842
01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:19,120
Speaker 3: we're not exploring ways to change that system. And I

1843
01:52:19,120 --> 01:52:22,519
Speaker 3: think it's going to be at the detriment of hunting

1844
01:52:23,400 --> 01:52:25,280
Speaker 3: because it's like, well, why would I give a shit

1845
01:52:25,320 --> 01:52:28,000
Speaker 3: about that. It's like I'm not I lost that game

1846
01:52:28,040 --> 01:52:32,000
Speaker 3: a long time ago. Ladies, Joan Ryan Kell and Amen

1847
01:52:32,160 --> 01:52:36,439
Speaker 3: Cal thank you for joining.

1848
01:52:36,479 --> 01:52:40,040
Speaker 1: We'll find you out to the uh the hell's it called?

1849
01:52:41,439 --> 01:52:50,960
Speaker 1: Mediator podcast network, YouTube, good Night uncompahgre or the other

1850
01:52:51,360 --> 01:53:03,120
Speaker 1: Robert W service by Bob Servis. This next story came

1851
01:53:03,160 --> 01:53:07,400
Speaker 1: to us through Keith and Spot, the manager of the

1852
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:13,000
Speaker 1: First Light store in Haley, Idaho. Keith received a call

1853
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:16,559
Speaker 1: from a customer one day who phoned in to tell

1854
01:53:16,640 --> 01:53:20,479
Speaker 1: him about an experience he'd had while wearing a piece

1855
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:26,080
Speaker 1: of First Light gear, the Uncompagreate Puffy. While I'd argue

1856
01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:29,040
Speaker 1: that the jacket is certainly not the star of the story,

1857
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:33,280
Speaker 1: this gentleman had gotten into a very sticky situation in

1858
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:38,040
Speaker 1: the mountains of northwest Montana. He felt that his survival

1859
01:53:38,200 --> 01:53:42,080
Speaker 1: was due in part to the quality of the jacket

1860
01:53:42,120 --> 01:53:45,439
Speaker 1: he was wearing. As you'll hear, there are a few

1861
01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:48,200
Speaker 1: other pieces of gear that would have served him well,

1862
01:53:48,600 --> 01:53:52,360
Speaker 1: and he readily admits that he should have been carrying them.

1863
01:53:52,880 --> 01:53:55,640
Speaker 1: To be honest, though, what caught my eye about this

1864
01:53:55,760 --> 01:53:59,320
Speaker 1: story wasn't the coat, which is a damn good puffy,

1865
01:53:59,800 --> 01:54:07,439
Speaker 1: but rather the narrator's name, Robert W. Service. As everyone knows,

1866
01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:11,160
Speaker 1: or at least they better know, Robert Service is the

1867
01:54:11,280 --> 01:54:14,240
Speaker 1: name of the greatest poet of all time, if he

1868
01:54:14,320 --> 01:54:18,120
Speaker 1: asks me, better than Shakespeare, Emily Dickinson, and Walt Whitman

1869
01:54:18,200 --> 01:54:22,120
Speaker 1: all put together, known as the Bard of the Yukon,

1870
01:54:22,960 --> 01:54:26,400
Speaker 1: Service was born in eighteen seventy four and is the

1871
01:54:26,439 --> 01:54:31,599
Speaker 1: author of the greatest poem ever written, The Cremation of

1872
01:54:31,720 --> 01:54:35,720
Speaker 1: Sam McGee. It's the story of a pair of gold

1873
01:54:35,760 --> 01:54:40,280
Speaker 1: miners during the Yukon gold Rush, one of whom Sam McGee,

1874
01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:44,280
Speaker 1: is from Tennessee. He hates the cold of the North,

1875
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:48,200
Speaker 1: hates it severely, and it's not until his death that

1876
01:54:48,280 --> 01:54:52,680
Speaker 1: he finally gets so much needed relief. The poem begins,

1877
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:56,840
Speaker 1: there are strange things done in the midnight sun by

1878
01:54:56,880 --> 01:55:00,320
Speaker 1: the men who moil for gold. The Arctic trail have

1879
01:55:00,400 --> 01:55:04,560
Speaker 1: their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.

1880
01:55:04,680 --> 01:55:08,280
Speaker 1: The northern lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest

1881
01:55:08,360 --> 01:55:11,600
Speaker 1: they ever did see was that night on the marge

1882
01:55:11,800 --> 01:55:17,400
Speaker 1: of Lake Lebarge I cremated Sam McGee. You'll have to

1883
01:55:17,400 --> 01:55:19,520
Speaker 1: read it to see how it ends, and then you

1884
01:55:19,600 --> 01:55:22,440
Speaker 1: might want to follow up by reading the second greatest

1885
01:55:22,480 --> 01:55:27,000
Speaker 1: poem of all time, also written by Service, called the

1886
01:55:27,120 --> 01:55:34,320
Speaker 1: Shooting of Dan McGrew. Now what binds these two Robert W. Services,

1887
01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:38,040
Speaker 1: one a dead Scottish Canadian poet and the other living

1888
01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:42,800
Speaker 1: commercial fishermen from Oregon. Isn't just their name or the

1889
01:55:42,880 --> 01:55:47,120
Speaker 1: fact that they are actually related. They are bound also

1890
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:53,080
Speaker 1: by experiences with extreme cold. Only one of them, however,

1891
01:55:53,880 --> 01:55:58,800
Speaker 1: lived through two experiences so harrowing that they would earn

1892
01:55:58,880 --> 01:56:02,080
Speaker 1: him the nickname black Cloud Bob.

1893
01:56:06,960 --> 01:56:10,120
Speaker 8: My name's Bob Service. I'm from the Pacific Northwest. I

1894
01:56:10,160 --> 01:56:13,000
Speaker 8: live in a small coastal town in Oregon. The story

1895
01:56:13,040 --> 01:56:16,560
Speaker 8: I'm going to tell you took place on November fifteenth,

1896
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:23,200
Speaker 8: twenty twenty three, in Sanders County, Montana. I've lived here

1897
01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:26,680
Speaker 8: in Astoi, Oregon, my whole entire life to make a

1898
01:56:26,720 --> 01:56:30,360
Speaker 8: living a commercial fish and also a member of an

1899
01:56:30,400 --> 01:56:34,600
Speaker 8: operating engineer's trade. It's a pretty economically depressed place, so

1900
01:56:35,520 --> 01:56:38,800
Speaker 8: growing up in a small coastal community. Even though my

1901
01:56:38,880 --> 01:56:42,000
Speaker 8: parents weren't really hardcore, we spent a lot of time

1902
01:56:42,040 --> 01:56:46,920
Speaker 8: outside and we ate a lot of the fish, crab, deer, elk.

1903
01:56:47,040 --> 01:56:49,320
Speaker 8: It just became a way of life. We lived off

1904
01:56:49,360 --> 01:56:51,920
Speaker 8: the land here and it just kind of morphed into

1905
01:56:51,920 --> 01:56:56,640
Speaker 8: my adulthood and it became what I'm all about. I

1906
01:56:56,720 --> 01:56:59,640
Speaker 8: started hunting when I was twelve. I've had horrible luck

1907
01:56:59,680 --> 01:57:01,960
Speaker 8: at it, but it's part of who I am and

1908
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:05,800
Speaker 8: I love it. People approached me and you're like, man,

1909
01:57:05,840 --> 01:57:07,840
Speaker 8: if you didn't have bad luck, you wouldn't have any luck.

1910
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:11,200
Speaker 8: I've been labeled black cloud, bob or I've also been

1911
01:57:11,240 --> 01:57:14,280
Speaker 8: told I'm lucky. I don't know what it is to

1912
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:17,080
Speaker 8: be honest with you, but I mean I was on

1913
01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:19,120
Speaker 8: a crab boat one time that was sinking and we

1914
01:57:19,200 --> 01:57:22,000
Speaker 8: got rescued off that. I've been hit by an Amtrak train.

1915
01:57:22,120 --> 01:57:25,200
Speaker 8: I've had some pretty impressive things happen to me. So

1916
01:57:26,400 --> 01:57:28,320
Speaker 8: I'm still here and there must be some kind of

1917
01:57:28,320 --> 01:57:31,480
Speaker 8: a reason for the story that I'm about to tell you,

1918
01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:35,880
Speaker 8: which took place in November of twenty twenty three. I

1919
01:57:35,960 --> 01:57:39,400
Speaker 8: need to go back to twenty ten. I had been

1920
01:57:39,440 --> 01:57:41,560
Speaker 8: in a relationship for four or five years. I met

1921
01:57:41,560 --> 01:57:43,600
Speaker 8: this gal and she was like twenty and I was

1922
01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:46,840
Speaker 8: thirty three, and she came over to my house and

1923
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:50,960
Speaker 8: she never left. She had mentioned that, you know, she

1924
01:57:51,160 --> 01:57:53,400
Speaker 8: had an interest in wanting to go deer hunting, and

1925
01:57:53,440 --> 01:57:55,640
Speaker 8: I'm like, well, let's fulfill your interest.

1926
01:57:55,880 --> 01:57:56,240
Speaker 3: Let's go.

1927
01:57:56,400 --> 01:57:58,480
Speaker 8: So I bought her a deer tag. I took her

1928
01:57:58,520 --> 01:58:01,720
Speaker 8: out to a gun. I let her handle a rifle.

1929
01:58:02,320 --> 01:58:06,440
Speaker 8: Everything in my mind that you would do to fulfill

1930
01:58:06,520 --> 01:58:09,840
Speaker 8: somebody that hadn't spent much time around guns. You showed

1931
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:12,720
Speaker 8: them how it works, let him handle the firearm, you

1932
01:58:12,760 --> 01:58:15,720
Speaker 8: let him shoot. So I did all these things, and

1933
01:58:15,760 --> 01:58:19,640
Speaker 8: I take my ex girlfriend hunting about five hours south

1934
01:58:19,720 --> 01:58:22,800
Speaker 8: of where I live, so it was a camping hunting

1935
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:26,080
Speaker 8: destination trip. Took her out hunting and I found a

1936
01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:27,840
Speaker 8: buck and I said, hey, would you like to shoot

1937
01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:30,839
Speaker 8: this buck? She said yes. And when I first spotted

1938
01:58:30,880 --> 01:58:33,560
Speaker 8: this thing, it was probably like almost a thousand yards away,

1939
01:58:33,600 --> 01:58:35,960
Speaker 8: so we closed the distance to about three hundred yards.

1940
01:58:35,960 --> 01:58:38,000
Speaker 8: I set her up and I'm like, well, here's the deer,

1941
01:58:38,520 --> 01:58:41,360
Speaker 8: find it in the scope, and when you're ready, shoot it.

1942
01:58:42,440 --> 01:58:45,080
Speaker 8: The funny thing about this story is I don't normally

1943
01:58:45,120 --> 01:58:47,000
Speaker 8: bring a dog with me hunting, but I had this

1944
01:58:47,040 --> 01:58:49,160
Speaker 8: little spring or Spaniel. She was about a thirty five

1945
01:58:49,160 --> 01:58:51,920
Speaker 8: pound dog, and she went with me everywhere. She was

1946
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:54,360
Speaker 8: in the back seat right when all this stuff happened,

1947
01:58:54,720 --> 01:58:58,680
Speaker 8: she started barking and freaking out. Looking back, I still

1948
01:58:58,680 --> 01:59:00,520
Speaker 8: think that that dog was trying to tell me that

1949
01:59:00,680 --> 01:59:03,920
Speaker 8: she just had maybe like a premonition that something was

1950
01:59:04,120 --> 01:59:07,760
Speaker 8: gonna go wrong that day. And I scolded her for it,

1951
01:59:07,840 --> 01:59:10,240
Speaker 8: and I feel horrible about that because I think that

1952
01:59:10,360 --> 01:59:15,240
Speaker 8: dog just had maybe had a hunch. She shoots this deer,

1953
01:59:15,480 --> 01:59:20,240
Speaker 8: the deer falls down. I rig her up and I

1954
01:59:20,280 --> 01:59:22,440
Speaker 8: put the firearm on her back on a sling. I

1955
01:59:22,480 --> 01:59:26,040
Speaker 8: empty it. I put a pack frame on bags on

1956
01:59:26,080 --> 01:59:27,840
Speaker 8: my back, and I'm going to bone this deer out.

1957
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:30,000
Speaker 8: We're going to hike down to it. And I'm side hill.

1958
01:59:30,040 --> 01:59:32,720
Speaker 8: I'm trying to find it, and we make our way

1959
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:34,920
Speaker 8: over to the animal. The deer was about twenty five

1960
01:59:34,920 --> 01:59:39,280
Speaker 8: feet to my immediate right. The animal is mortally wounded,

1961
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,240
Speaker 8: but it's still alive. She was up on the hill

1962
01:59:42,760 --> 01:59:46,480
Speaker 8: from the steep bank and I'm directly across from this animal,

1963
01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:49,040
Speaker 8: and I said, why don't you go ahead and chamber

1964
01:59:49,080 --> 01:59:53,200
Speaker 8: around up and dispatch this deer. So she started to

1965
01:59:53,240 --> 01:59:57,320
Speaker 8: cycle around with this rifle. It was my rifle, and

1966
01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:00,720
Speaker 8: it had a detachable magazine. The spring had a little

1967
02:00:00,720 --> 02:00:04,120
Speaker 8: bit of slack, so when you put a round into

1968
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:06,760
Speaker 8: the magazine and you went to chamber it, to get

1969
02:00:06,760 --> 02:00:10,040
Speaker 8: that bullet to feed into the chamber, sometimes you kind

1970
02:00:10,040 --> 02:00:11,880
Speaker 8: of had to put your hand on the bottom of

1971
02:00:11,880 --> 02:00:16,000
Speaker 8: the clip to raise that spring up. In that action,

1972
02:00:16,280 --> 02:00:18,720
Speaker 8: she was trying to fight it. It was foreign to

1973
02:00:18,760 --> 02:00:21,760
Speaker 8: her and she didn't know her way around it. Unknowingly,

1974
02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:25,080
Speaker 8: that muzzle was coming towards my direction to my right,

1975
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:29,440
Speaker 8: and about the time I'm like, oh, that muzzle's way

1976
02:00:30,120 --> 02:00:33,280
Speaker 8: in the danger zone and my safe. The gun went

1977
02:00:33,320 --> 02:00:39,360
Speaker 8: off and I felt the bullet go through my thigh,

1978
02:00:39,920 --> 02:00:43,080
Speaker 8: and immediately I remember saying to her, Oh my god,

1979
02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:46,480
Speaker 8: you just shot me in the leg. And it wasn't

1980
02:00:46,480 --> 02:00:49,680
Speaker 8: like the movies where you fly or fall. I just

1981
02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:52,520
Speaker 8: I stood there and I'm like, oh my god. I'm like, oh,

1982
02:00:52,520 --> 02:00:53,760
Speaker 8: I got to get out of here, and I took

1983
02:00:53,800 --> 02:00:57,160
Speaker 8: a step and down I went. Just by the pain

1984
02:00:57,400 --> 02:00:59,560
Speaker 8: and the shock and everything that I was going into,

1985
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:01,960
Speaker 8: I pretty much figured that was time I was going

1986
02:01:02,000 --> 02:01:05,880
Speaker 8: to say goodbye right there. She called nine one one,

1987
02:01:05,920 --> 02:01:08,600
Speaker 8: and for about an hour and a half or two hours,

1988
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:15,040
Speaker 8: she had first responders, firefighters EMTs searching this mountain for us.

1989
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:19,880
Speaker 8: I had told secondhand, you know, the dispatcher that we're

1990
02:01:19,880 --> 02:01:22,240
Speaker 8: on this road. We're at the three and a half

1991
02:01:22,280 --> 02:01:25,520
Speaker 8: mile marker. It was a one ton dodged diesel crew

1992
02:01:25,600 --> 02:01:29,560
Speaker 8: cab truck. And it's super crazy because the dispatcher at

1993
02:01:29,560 --> 02:01:34,080
Speaker 8: the time had enough common sense to reach out to

1994
02:01:34,200 --> 02:01:37,360
Speaker 8: a local there, and this man was like eighty years

1995
02:01:37,400 --> 02:01:40,160
Speaker 8: old at the time. She called him up and she said, hey,

1996
02:01:40,200 --> 02:01:43,080
Speaker 8: I think there's a hunter behind your house. He's been shot,

1997
02:01:43,120 --> 02:01:46,800
Speaker 8: he's wounded. And this old timer got in his pickup

1998
02:01:47,360 --> 02:01:49,760
Speaker 8: just based off the description and drove up there and

1999
02:01:49,800 --> 02:01:53,240
Speaker 8: found me. I'm sitting there, I'm laying on my back,

2000
02:01:53,320 --> 02:01:57,040
Speaker 8: and I'm things are starting to get slowed down, and

2001
02:01:57,120 --> 02:02:00,520
Speaker 8: I'm actually playing like highlight reels of my life. I

2002
02:02:00,560 --> 02:02:05,000
Speaker 8: had all this real, super vivid memories of things that

2003
02:02:05,080 --> 02:02:07,960
Speaker 8: happened forty years ago that were as vivid as something

2004
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:10,920
Speaker 8: that happened ten minutes ago. That's when I knew I

2005
02:02:10,960 --> 02:02:15,240
Speaker 8: was probably getting ready to say goodbye. But shortly after

2006
02:02:15,280 --> 02:02:18,400
Speaker 8: that old man found me. He had a bunch of

2007
02:02:18,440 --> 02:02:21,400
Speaker 8: EMTs right directly behind him, and they packed me down

2008
02:02:21,440 --> 02:02:25,600
Speaker 8: to a landing and I was life flighted to Eugene, Oregon.

2009
02:02:29,400 --> 02:02:32,640
Speaker 8: I woke up two weeks later and my dad was

2010
02:02:32,680 --> 02:02:34,160
Speaker 8: there and he's like, do you know what day it is?

2011
02:02:34,200 --> 02:02:36,640
Speaker 8: And I'm like no, and he's like, you've been asleep

2012
02:02:36,680 --> 02:02:41,400
Speaker 8: for ten days. I spent almost fifty consecutive days in

2013
02:02:41,440 --> 02:02:46,480
Speaker 8: the hospital and almost a year of recovery before I

2014
02:02:46,520 --> 02:02:50,440
Speaker 8: was able to walk. But that hunting accident, what I

2015
02:02:50,680 --> 02:02:54,440
Speaker 8: had to go through has been over the last fourteen

2016
02:02:54,520 --> 02:02:58,440
Speaker 8: years as a result of that event, quite an experience.

2017
02:02:59,400 --> 02:03:02,240
Speaker 8: What I bow and what I went through trying to

2018
02:03:03,400 --> 02:03:06,680
Speaker 8: rehabilitate myself and get myself back to work. Like I said,

2019
02:03:06,720 --> 02:03:09,160
Speaker 8: I work as a commercial fisherman and being a guy

2020
02:03:09,160 --> 02:03:10,680
Speaker 8: in a trade, I worked on a lot of heavy

2021
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:15,160
Speaker 8: duty construction that required pile driving, dredging, dock wharf construction,

2022
02:03:15,280 --> 02:03:19,280
Speaker 8: that kind of stuff that having some debilitating injury creates

2023
02:03:19,440 --> 02:03:24,400
Speaker 8: a little bit of resentment. We stayed together for five

2024
02:03:24,480 --> 02:03:26,760
Speaker 8: or six years, but I just couldn't get over the

2025
02:03:26,800 --> 02:03:29,360
Speaker 8: fact that she shot me, even though it was an accident.

2026
02:03:30,080 --> 02:03:32,440
Speaker 8: I tried to put myself in her shoes, think about

2027
02:03:32,440 --> 02:03:34,640
Speaker 8: what she was going through and the trauma that she

2028
02:03:34,760 --> 02:03:38,920
Speaker 8: went through shooting me. But I just couldn't. I just

2029
02:03:38,920 --> 02:03:42,520
Speaker 8: couldn't get over it. I had times where I'd get

2030
02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:46,200
Speaker 8: these staff infections and it would make me just horribly sick.

2031
02:03:46,280 --> 02:03:49,520
Speaker 8: I got osteo melitis, which is a bone infection. I

2032
02:03:49,560 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 8: had to have my metatarsal bone cut off, and the

2033
02:03:53,080 --> 02:03:55,520
Speaker 8: second toe I think they called the second gist all.

2034
02:03:55,560 --> 02:03:57,480
Speaker 8: They had to clip that one off because I wore

2035
02:03:57,520 --> 02:03:59,560
Speaker 8: the end of it off. I learned a lot about

2036
02:03:59,560 --> 02:04:02,960
Speaker 8: it infect and how sick it can make you. I

2037
02:04:03,000 --> 02:04:05,120
Speaker 8: was sitting there stressing, and I was watching the money

2038
02:04:05,240 --> 02:04:08,000
Speaker 8: leave my bank account. I'd go for a couple months

2039
02:04:08,000 --> 02:04:09,560
Speaker 8: where I'd be able to work, and then I was

2040
02:04:09,640 --> 02:04:12,320
Speaker 8: plagued with an infection. I wouldn't be able to work

2041
02:04:12,360 --> 02:04:16,400
Speaker 8: for months, even though it was debilitating. Once I was upright,

2042
02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:20,440
Speaker 8: there was no slowing me down. I pedaled in ten

2043
02:04:20,480 --> 02:04:23,360
Speaker 8: miles to kill a bull elk on a logging road

2044
02:04:23,400 --> 02:04:28,760
Speaker 8: on a bicycle the next year, so I definitely got

2045
02:04:28,840 --> 02:04:31,120
Speaker 8: right back on the bike and ripped the training wheels off,

2046
02:04:31,160 --> 02:04:34,720
Speaker 8: and I tried to be as headstrong as I could be.

2047
02:04:34,920 --> 02:04:37,560
Speaker 8: I actually think it made me work harder than most

2048
02:04:37,600 --> 02:04:41,760
Speaker 8: people because I had this weight of this debilitating leg

2049
02:04:41,880 --> 02:04:53,440
Speaker 8: or this slowed down leg. November of twenty twenty three,

2050
02:04:54,280 --> 02:04:58,000
Speaker 8: I had just spent several months fishing every day on

2051
02:04:58,040 --> 02:05:02,040
Speaker 8: a commercial fishing boat out of Astoria, so I was

2052
02:05:02,080 --> 02:05:05,640
Speaker 8: really looking forward to the fall. And the year prior

2053
02:05:05,880 --> 02:05:09,480
Speaker 8: I didn't really get much hunting time in, so after

2054
02:05:09,560 --> 02:05:12,400
Speaker 8: going for a couple of years, I wanted to set

2055
02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:15,880
Speaker 8: myself up where I had some time. Our Oregon elk season,

2056
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:19,200
Speaker 8: which takes place in Middle Oregon, is a big part

2057
02:05:19,280 --> 02:05:22,960
Speaker 8: of my life. Elk season is traditional to us as

2058
02:05:23,040 --> 02:05:26,160
Speaker 8: Christmas Morning is for some people. There's a lot of

2059
02:05:26,200 --> 02:05:30,640
Speaker 8: families involved, and we rely heavily on eating elk meat.

2060
02:05:31,120 --> 02:05:34,360
Speaker 8: I wanted to go hunting in Montana before our elk

2061
02:05:34,440 --> 02:05:38,080
Speaker 8: season started, and I had this idea in my head

2062
02:05:38,120 --> 02:05:40,120
Speaker 8: that I wanted to go and try and hunt for

2063
02:05:40,200 --> 02:05:44,080
Speaker 8: mule deer. Oregon has horrible mule deer hunting, and I

2064
02:05:44,120 --> 02:05:48,200
Speaker 8: wanted to shoot a nice mature mule deer bug. And

2065
02:05:48,720 --> 02:05:52,920
Speaker 8: I cut some corners, and that's probably another reason why

2066
02:05:52,920 --> 02:05:55,720
Speaker 8: I got in the trouble. I got into. It was

2067
02:05:55,760 --> 02:05:59,080
Speaker 8: a Sunday, and I had told my wife, I'm like, dear,

2068
02:05:59,080 --> 02:06:02,680
Speaker 8: I'm gonna go hunting. Wanted to utilize some hunting tags

2069
02:06:02,720 --> 02:06:05,240
Speaker 8: in Montana. The person that I was supposed to go

2070
02:06:05,280 --> 02:06:08,440
Speaker 8: with didn't draw. She's a busy woman, hard working gal,

2071
02:06:09,080 --> 02:06:12,040
Speaker 8: and she's like, well, I can't go, I can't leave.

2072
02:06:12,400 --> 02:06:15,160
Speaker 8: And I'm like, I'll just go over for a couple

2073
02:06:15,280 --> 02:06:18,920
Speaker 8: days and I'll come back. So that's what I did.

2074
02:06:18,920 --> 02:06:20,960
Speaker 8: I threw my stuff in my pickup. I was just

2075
02:06:20,960 --> 02:06:24,240
Speaker 8: gonna kind of cruise around and go hunting. It wasn't

2076
02:06:24,280 --> 02:06:27,360
Speaker 8: my first time hunting in Montana. I've probably been there

2077
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:31,440
Speaker 8: five or six times prior. I went to the area

2078
02:06:31,480 --> 02:06:34,880
Speaker 8: that I knew first, and I spent half a morning

2079
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:37,560
Speaker 8: there kind of cruising around and decided that I wanted

2080
02:06:37,560 --> 02:06:40,880
Speaker 8: to actually go out and just hunt and explore, spend

2081
02:06:40,920 --> 02:06:43,640
Speaker 8: a couple of days messing around in country that I

2082
02:06:43,640 --> 02:06:48,560
Speaker 8: hadn't really been to before. I went south, about two

2083
02:06:48,640 --> 02:06:51,120
Speaker 8: and a half hours from where i'd normally go hunting,

2084
02:06:51,160 --> 02:06:54,040
Speaker 8: and I drove up this ridge and I had got

2085
02:06:54,120 --> 02:06:56,840
Speaker 8: up to this point where I was overlooking this reservoir

2086
02:06:56,960 --> 02:07:01,160
Speaker 8: and mountains. It was beautiful vast, big country, and I'm like, oh,

2087
02:07:01,200 --> 02:07:04,320
Speaker 8: put a rifle on my shoulder and my little daypack

2088
02:07:04,360 --> 02:07:06,640
Speaker 8: on and I'll just go for a little drawn up

2089
02:07:06,640 --> 02:07:11,720
Speaker 8: this ridge. It's awful weather, raining, sideways, nasty. I'm going

2090
02:07:11,840 --> 02:07:14,839
Speaker 8: up this ridge. And I guess it was probably around

2091
02:07:14,880 --> 02:07:19,160
Speaker 8: one or two in the afternoon over there in that

2092
02:07:19,320 --> 02:07:22,120
Speaker 8: time of the year. I think it gets dark around

2093
02:07:22,200 --> 02:07:25,560
Speaker 8: four thirty or a quarter after four. It was starting

2094
02:07:25,600 --> 02:07:27,920
Speaker 8: to be that time where the lights were starting to

2095
02:07:27,960 --> 02:07:30,400
Speaker 8: go out, and I'm like, well, I better turn around

2096
02:07:30,400 --> 02:07:32,240
Speaker 8: and make my way back down to the pickup and

2097
02:07:33,360 --> 02:07:35,480
Speaker 8: have some dinner and call my wife and figure out

2098
02:07:35,520 --> 02:07:38,560
Speaker 8: where I'm at to stay tonight. As I did that,

2099
02:07:38,680 --> 02:07:41,480
Speaker 8: I was coming back down the hill and everything just

2100
02:07:41,560 --> 02:07:45,320
Speaker 8: went black. I don't know what happened. I know I fell.

2101
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:49,560
Speaker 8: All I remember is my legs being above my head

2102
02:07:50,000 --> 02:07:57,840
Speaker 8: and then everything went black. I wake up and it's dark,

2103
02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:04,680
Speaker 8: and I kind of panicked because it's pitch black, and

2104
02:08:04,720 --> 02:08:08,560
Speaker 8: I don't know how long I'd been out, and my

2105
02:08:08,720 --> 02:08:12,440
Speaker 8: leg is really really messed up, I mean messed up, bad,

2106
02:08:12,640 --> 02:08:15,280
Speaker 8: hurt and bad, and I could tell my ankle was

2107
02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:21,560
Speaker 8: all cocked over, and I thought I would expedite things,

2108
02:08:21,560 --> 02:08:25,480
Speaker 8: and I would go down this ridge and get down

2109
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:27,440
Speaker 8: to the road that I had driven my truck up

2110
02:08:27,480 --> 02:08:32,280
Speaker 8: to where I was well. When I bailed off the ridge,

2111
02:08:32,920 --> 02:08:34,800
Speaker 8: I kept on taking it down, thinking I was going

2112
02:08:34,840 --> 02:08:37,280
Speaker 8: to cut this road, and I never cut it. I

2113
02:08:37,360 --> 02:08:41,680
Speaker 8: was wearing a Boa type ratcheting hunting boot. This particular

2114
02:08:41,760 --> 02:08:44,080
Speaker 8: hunting boot had a sole on it that was super

2115
02:08:44,120 --> 02:08:47,560
Speaker 8: hard and slick. I'd walk over the blowdown limbs and

2116
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:50,080
Speaker 8: it was like walking on a sheet of ice. Everything

2117
02:08:50,160 --> 02:08:53,280
Speaker 8: was just slick and slimy and wet and saturated. And

2118
02:08:53,320 --> 02:08:56,120
Speaker 8: if it wasn't rain and sideways, it was snowing. I

2119
02:08:56,160 --> 02:08:57,760
Speaker 8: would just be walking along and all of a sudden,

2120
02:08:57,760 --> 02:09:00,680
Speaker 8: I'd be right on my back smack. And I don't

2121
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:04,080
Speaker 8: know how many times I fell because of that. With

2122
02:09:04,240 --> 02:09:07,600
Speaker 8: my experience in twenty ten, you'd think I'd be pretty

2123
02:09:08,480 --> 02:09:11,280
Speaker 8: set up as far as having some kind of GPS

2124
02:09:11,400 --> 02:09:16,200
Speaker 8: or some kind of transponder type apparatus. My phone battery

2125
02:09:16,320 --> 02:09:20,120
Speaker 8: was dead. I couldn't access any maps, ONYX maps or anything,

2126
02:09:20,880 --> 02:09:24,920
Speaker 8: and I just completely put myself into a situation where

2127
02:09:25,640 --> 02:09:29,080
Speaker 8: I got bit. I had taken compass readings, and I

2128
02:09:29,160 --> 02:09:32,040
Speaker 8: knew before I had left where I needed to go

2129
02:09:32,120 --> 02:09:35,160
Speaker 8: to get back to my pickup. However, I just couldn't

2130
02:09:35,160 --> 02:09:39,160
Speaker 8: achieve that it was very humbling to be a mile

2131
02:09:39,240 --> 02:09:41,800
Speaker 8: or two away from your vehicle and have a broken

2132
02:09:41,880 --> 02:09:46,480
Speaker 8: leg that you can barely stand on, and some injuries

2133
02:09:46,520 --> 02:09:50,280
Speaker 8: that you knew that you might not walk away from.

2134
02:09:50,840 --> 02:09:53,600
Speaker 8: I kept taking this ridge down, and I got down

2135
02:09:53,640 --> 02:09:55,640
Speaker 8: in this creek bottom and I'm like, well, I can

2136
02:09:55,680 --> 02:10:00,040
Speaker 8: take a crick to somewhere. The very first night I

2137
02:10:00,080 --> 02:10:03,560
Speaker 8: went through this country where it was hands and knees

2138
02:10:03,640 --> 02:10:08,560
Speaker 8: crawling through and over, and I remember getting to this point.

2139
02:10:08,720 --> 02:10:11,880
Speaker 8: The whole night had been up trying to get out,

2140
02:10:12,240 --> 02:10:16,120
Speaker 8: and I was so freaking exhausted. I remember reaching in

2141
02:10:16,200 --> 02:10:19,240
Speaker 8: my pocket, I pulled out my keys, and I hit

2142
02:10:19,280 --> 02:10:21,080
Speaker 8: my teeth off to see if I was close to

2143
02:10:21,120 --> 02:10:25,200
Speaker 8: my truck. I remember hearing my horn and I'm like,

2144
02:10:25,200 --> 02:10:28,400
Speaker 8: I'm okay, I can just fall asleep. I was so exhausted.

2145
02:10:28,440 --> 02:10:33,400
Speaker 8: I just fell asleep on this hillside. And I wake

2146
02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:37,200
Speaker 8: up to this mule deer dough blowing and hissing at

2147
02:10:37,200 --> 02:10:42,000
Speaker 8: me and stomping at me, and it's sunny. I'm looking

2148
02:10:42,040 --> 02:10:44,920
Speaker 8: at her, and this deer is just completely agitated that

2149
02:10:45,000 --> 02:10:49,080
Speaker 8: I'm around. She's hissing, and then finally I kind of

2150
02:10:49,080 --> 02:10:51,480
Speaker 8: shoot her away. And I had this little rim rock

2151
02:10:52,080 --> 02:10:54,120
Speaker 8: thing that I was laying next to on this hillside

2152
02:10:54,160 --> 02:10:55,640
Speaker 8: and the sun was beaten on me, and I was

2153
02:10:55,680 --> 02:10:58,800
Speaker 8: warming up, drying out and kind of trying to wake up,

2154
02:10:58,960 --> 02:11:02,200
Speaker 8: and I could hear that dough, that mule deer dough

2155
02:11:02,440 --> 02:11:05,680
Speaker 8: up there, still blowing, and I could hear hooves hitting

2156
02:11:05,760 --> 02:11:09,960
Speaker 8: the ground, and the next thing I know, she kicked

2157
02:11:10,040 --> 02:11:12,880
Speaker 8: up this boulder directly above me. In this rock that

2158
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:16,240
Speaker 8: was the size of a basketball or a cantalope comes

2159
02:11:16,280 --> 02:11:19,400
Speaker 8: hurling down over this hillside, and I felt the wind

2160
02:11:19,400 --> 02:11:22,280
Speaker 8: of that rock go by my head, and I'm thinking

2161
02:11:22,320 --> 02:11:25,360
Speaker 8: to myself, I'm like, geez, the deer even trying to

2162
02:11:25,400 --> 02:11:30,200
Speaker 8: get me well her tracks, I kind of noticed that

2163
02:11:30,280 --> 02:11:31,960
Speaker 8: was kind of the direction I needed to go.

2164
02:11:32,560 --> 02:11:32,720
Speaker 2: Well.

2165
02:11:32,720 --> 02:11:36,960
Speaker 8: I ended up running into this deer a couple more times.

2166
02:11:37,200 --> 02:11:39,840
Speaker 8: It was really strange because when I caught up to her,

2167
02:11:40,200 --> 02:11:43,720
Speaker 8: she had a nice, mature mule deer with her, like

2168
02:11:43,760 --> 02:11:46,800
Speaker 8: a four point that was just a beautiful buck. At

2169
02:11:46,840 --> 02:11:50,879
Speaker 8: that point, hunting was the last thing on my agenda.

2170
02:11:51,600 --> 02:11:53,400
Speaker 8: There could have been a world record deer there, and

2171
02:11:53,400 --> 02:11:55,200
Speaker 8: I wouldn't have shot it. I needed to get out

2172
02:11:55,240 --> 02:11:58,200
Speaker 8: of there. I didn't even know if my gun was

2173
02:11:58,800 --> 02:12:03,320
Speaker 8: operable because it had fallen twenty feet and taken a

2174
02:12:03,360 --> 02:12:05,760
Speaker 8: pretty hard hit and a whole muzzle was fouled, so

2175
02:12:06,320 --> 02:12:10,000
Speaker 8: I couldn't even shoot the gun safely. And I end

2176
02:12:10,080 --> 02:12:17,680
Speaker 8: up running into these deer, and now there's four. There's

2177
02:12:17,880 --> 02:12:20,280
Speaker 8: a mule deer dough, a mule deer buck, and a

2178
02:12:20,320 --> 02:12:22,480
Speaker 8: white tail buck and a white tail dough and they're

2179
02:12:22,480 --> 02:12:26,080
Speaker 8: all hanging out together, and I'm like, man, that is

2180
02:12:26,120 --> 02:12:28,800
Speaker 8: really weird. That is really bizarre. Well, they ended up

2181
02:12:28,840 --> 02:12:32,560
Speaker 8: taking off, and I ended up making my way down

2182
02:12:32,560 --> 02:12:36,320
Speaker 8: to this road and I'm like, oh, this must be

2183
02:12:36,360 --> 02:12:39,720
Speaker 8: the road where I drove up with my truck. And

2184
02:12:39,800 --> 02:12:43,160
Speaker 8: so I'm down there all night, piecing around looking for

2185
02:12:43,240 --> 02:12:47,720
Speaker 8: my tracks on this road and I literally am just

2186
02:12:47,760 --> 02:12:49,920
Speaker 8: going over the same country over and over again. And

2187
02:12:49,960 --> 02:12:53,920
Speaker 8: I look up this road and I see three kids.

2188
02:12:53,960 --> 02:12:57,480
Speaker 8: And I look over to my right and there's a gate,

2189
02:12:57,600 --> 02:13:01,000
Speaker 8: a farmer gate type thing, and behind is this massive

2190
02:13:01,040 --> 02:13:04,480
Speaker 8: white tail buck. I still can't believe how big it was.

2191
02:13:05,080 --> 02:13:07,560
Speaker 8: But I saw these what I thought were three kids

2192
02:13:07,840 --> 02:13:09,760
Speaker 8: trying to yell at them and get their attention, and

2193
02:13:09,800 --> 02:13:13,400
Speaker 8: they're not yelling back at me. Well the whole time,

2194
02:13:13,520 --> 02:13:18,680
Speaker 8: what I'm thinking are kids is a hallucination. I'm hallucinating.

2195
02:13:21,160 --> 02:13:25,640
Speaker 8: I spent four whole nights out in the woods with

2196
02:13:25,720 --> 02:13:28,240
Speaker 8: no food, and the only water I was drinking was

2197
02:13:28,320 --> 02:13:31,720
Speaker 8: drinking from you know, springs in the ground. I was weak,

2198
02:13:31,800 --> 02:13:34,960
Speaker 8: I was tired, I was hurt, havn't eaten, haven't drank,

2199
02:13:35,520 --> 02:13:38,720
Speaker 8: and I was so freaking exhausted. I'd be walking along

2200
02:13:38,760 --> 02:13:40,640
Speaker 8: and I would just pass out and fall down on

2201
02:13:40,640 --> 02:13:47,920
Speaker 8: the ground. I was in trouble. All I could think

2202
02:13:47,960 --> 02:13:50,000
Speaker 8: about in my head was God, I missed the check

2203
02:13:50,040 --> 02:13:52,960
Speaker 8: in last night. But what is my wife thinking? What

2204
02:13:53,120 --> 02:13:55,080
Speaker 8: is my poor wife going through right now?

2205
02:13:55,680 --> 02:13:55,920
Speaker 2: You know?

2206
02:13:56,160 --> 02:13:59,200
Speaker 8: And I'm just trying to beat my way back. Every

2207
02:13:59,280 --> 02:14:02,880
Speaker 8: step I took was like taking five back. Nothing was

2208
02:14:02,920 --> 02:14:06,640
Speaker 8: working out. I was just terrified and worried about my daughter.

2209
02:14:06,880 --> 02:14:09,160
Speaker 8: I knew my wife would be okay, but I just

2210
02:14:09,160 --> 02:14:15,720
Speaker 8: couldn't stomach my daughter not having a dad. So it

2211
02:14:15,760 --> 02:14:20,400
Speaker 8: was it was a hell the time. I mean, just

2212
02:14:20,480 --> 02:14:26,200
Speaker 8: the fear and being hurt and the helplessness. I don't

2213
02:14:26,240 --> 02:14:31,120
Speaker 8: have any idea how much country I traversed when your

2214
02:14:31,240 --> 02:14:34,120
Speaker 8: legs broke, trying to use your gun as a crutch,

2215
02:14:34,200 --> 02:14:38,680
Speaker 8: and just trying to transit through that country with all

2216
02:14:38,680 --> 02:14:41,839
Speaker 8: the elevation and it being covered in snow and slick

2217
02:14:41,880 --> 02:14:45,600
Speaker 8: and overblowdown trees. You can only get around so much.

2218
02:14:45,800 --> 02:14:48,480
Speaker 8: But I just never would stop. I just kept on

2219
02:14:48,560 --> 02:14:51,240
Speaker 8: trying to beat my way ahead and through and trying

2220
02:14:51,240 --> 02:14:56,240
Speaker 8: to get out of this situation. This ridge that I

2221
02:14:56,360 --> 02:15:01,440
Speaker 8: was on, it was open on the east facing slope,

2222
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:05,640
Speaker 8: and then on the west facing slope it was timbered

2223
02:15:05,760 --> 02:15:10,120
Speaker 8: terrain and country. I got into these bluffs and I

2224
02:15:10,160 --> 02:15:15,800
Speaker 8: could see a trail below me, and it was so

2225
02:15:15,960 --> 02:15:19,240
Speaker 8: steep and it was so sketchy. It was like being

2226
02:15:19,800 --> 02:15:23,680
Speaker 8: placed on a rock wall where you're looking down where

2227
02:15:23,720 --> 02:15:26,400
Speaker 8: you have twelve or fourteen feet where you're going to

2228
02:15:26,480 --> 02:15:34,920
Speaker 8: hit bottom. The very last night, it would have been

2229
02:15:34,920 --> 02:15:38,280
Speaker 8: like the fourth night I was out there. I'm laying

2230
02:15:38,360 --> 02:15:40,360
Speaker 8: under this fir tree on the side of this mountain

2231
02:15:40,360 --> 02:15:42,880
Speaker 8: and I found myself over into these bluffs and I'm

2232
02:15:43,040 --> 02:15:45,520
Speaker 8: kind of covered up, and I'm soaking wet, I'm cold,

2233
02:15:46,200 --> 02:15:49,440
Speaker 8: and I've got one of the first light puffy coats

2234
02:15:49,760 --> 02:15:54,280
Speaker 8: on the down coats, and I couldn't believe how tough

2235
02:15:54,360 --> 02:15:56,880
Speaker 8: that was, because I thought I would absolutely shred it.

2236
02:15:57,760 --> 02:16:00,480
Speaker 8: I tore it in one spot. But the amount of

2237
02:16:00,480 --> 02:16:05,000
Speaker 8: brutality that I put on that coat was incredible. There

2238
02:16:05,080 --> 02:16:08,200
Speaker 8: was one night where it rained almost two inches. I

2239
02:16:08,280 --> 02:16:12,920
Speaker 8: encountered snow, rain, sleet, just about everything you can encounter.

2240
02:16:13,600 --> 02:16:17,000
Speaker 8: But it kept me warm and kept me dry. But

2241
02:16:17,040 --> 02:16:19,720
Speaker 8: I was wearing like danhim jeans. At my bottom half

2242
02:16:19,800 --> 02:16:22,920
Speaker 8: was soaked and it was just a miserable time to

2243
02:16:23,360 --> 02:16:26,960
Speaker 8: never really warm up or dry out. But I had

2244
02:16:26,960 --> 02:16:30,480
Speaker 8: a space blanket, and if I would say to have

2245
02:16:30,600 --> 02:16:33,879
Speaker 8: anything in a hunting pack, have a space blanket, because

2246
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:37,840
Speaker 8: if you can insulate yourself even after getting wet, it'll

2247
02:16:37,840 --> 02:16:41,320
Speaker 8: be all right. People ask me if you build a fire,

2248
02:16:41,360 --> 02:16:43,480
Speaker 8: and I'm like, how do you build a fire in

2249
02:16:44,160 --> 02:16:49,560
Speaker 8: country and ground that's completely saturated. You're so critical that

2250
02:16:50,040 --> 02:16:53,760
Speaker 8: you're now thinking about yourself like your cell phone. It's

2251
02:16:53,800 --> 02:16:58,560
Speaker 8: like I only have thirty six percent life left. I

2252
02:16:58,640 --> 02:17:02,240
Speaker 8: need to protect that thirty six percent. That's kind of

2253
02:17:02,240 --> 02:17:05,640
Speaker 8: how I viewed my leg and my body in that situation.

2254
02:17:05,840 --> 02:17:09,360
Speaker 8: So I was warm enough with the space blanket, and

2255
02:17:09,680 --> 02:17:11,560
Speaker 8: I didn't see where I was going to benefit from

2256
02:17:11,600 --> 02:17:14,760
Speaker 8: having a fire that I couldn't even hardly start to

2257
02:17:14,800 --> 02:17:19,240
Speaker 8: begin with. Everything was just wet, saturated. It was more

2258
02:17:19,280 --> 02:17:23,680
Speaker 8: important to keep the energy. And that last night, I'm

2259
02:17:23,840 --> 02:17:25,879
Speaker 8: curled up in a ball under that tree and I

2260
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:28,760
Speaker 8: hear a siren middle of the night. I have no

2261
02:17:28,800 --> 02:17:32,480
Speaker 8: idea what time it is. I hear this just siren,

2262
02:17:33,400 --> 02:17:38,840
Speaker 8: and I'm looking down this ridge and I see what

2263
02:17:38,959 --> 02:17:41,520
Speaker 8: I think is somebody who shining the spotlight. But they're

2264
02:17:41,560 --> 02:17:44,520
Speaker 8: probably over a mile away, and I'm like, well, that's

2265
02:17:44,560 --> 02:17:46,840
Speaker 8: where my pickup is, but I can't get there. I

2266
02:17:46,920 --> 02:17:49,119
Speaker 8: was blowing on a whistle trying to get their attention.

2267
02:17:49,760 --> 02:17:52,320
Speaker 8: I had a headlamp on. This guy that found me

2268
02:17:53,120 --> 02:17:56,560
Speaker 8: later on told me he saw my sos strobe. So

2269
02:17:56,600 --> 02:17:58,400
Speaker 8: they had me located and they knew where I was

2270
02:17:58,400 --> 02:18:02,280
Speaker 8: at because they were at my pickup, and because I

2271
02:18:02,320 --> 02:18:04,880
Speaker 8: was in such a rough spot, they were going to

2272
02:18:04,959 --> 02:18:07,760
Speaker 8: go up there and extract me with a helicopter. The

2273
02:18:07,800 --> 02:18:10,920
Speaker 8: weather had changed and it was just pea soup fog

2274
02:18:10,959 --> 02:18:15,040
Speaker 8: and they couldn't fly. They figured that I obviously was injured,

2275
02:18:15,040 --> 02:18:16,680
Speaker 8: and that's why I was hung up where I was

2276
02:18:16,760 --> 02:18:18,840
Speaker 8: hung up, but they didn't know how they were going

2277
02:18:18,879 --> 02:18:20,600
Speaker 8: to get me out of there, and I don't think

2278
02:18:20,640 --> 02:18:25,120
Speaker 8: they were expecting what I did. I'm up on this

2279
02:18:25,240 --> 02:18:28,119
Speaker 8: cliff and I'm looking at the shale, and it's probably

2280
02:18:28,120 --> 02:18:30,920
Speaker 8: a quarter mile down to this trail head, and I'm

2281
02:18:30,959 --> 02:18:35,520
Speaker 8: thinking I can't climb thirty feet up a vertical rock

2282
02:18:35,600 --> 02:18:39,879
Speaker 8: face to get over these bluffs, so I guess at

2283
02:18:39,879 --> 02:18:44,680
Speaker 8: this point my only option is to slide down this mountain.

2284
02:18:45,440 --> 02:18:48,000
Speaker 8: I just got on my butt and I slid.

2285
02:18:47,720 --> 02:18:48,280
Speaker 3: Down the hill.

2286
02:18:48,760 --> 02:18:51,240
Speaker 8: There wasn't really much left in my jeans, but at

2287
02:18:51,240 --> 02:18:54,080
Speaker 8: that point I didn't care. I just took it slow

2288
02:18:54,200 --> 02:18:56,720
Speaker 8: and rode her all the way to the bottom of

2289
02:18:56,760 --> 02:18:59,240
Speaker 8: the trail, and I got down to this trail head

2290
02:18:59,760 --> 02:19:04,119
Speaker 8: and pretty much drugged myself out. I didn't know where

2291
02:19:04,160 --> 02:19:06,200
Speaker 8: the trail was going to pop out at, but I

2292
02:19:06,320 --> 02:19:12,760
Speaker 8: ended up encountering this kiosk where this fire had occurred

2293
02:19:12,800 --> 02:19:16,480
Speaker 8: in four or five wild land firefighters had lost their

2294
02:19:16,480 --> 02:19:20,680
Speaker 8: life at this particular spot, and I'm like, well, I

2295
02:19:20,720 --> 02:19:22,680
Speaker 8: must be getting close to some kind of parking lot

2296
02:19:22,800 --> 02:19:25,440
Speaker 8: or something. I went maybe one hundred or two hundred

2297
02:19:25,520 --> 02:19:29,920
Speaker 8: yards further, and I heard people talking and that's when Mason,

2298
02:19:30,720 --> 02:19:33,480
Speaker 8: who was head of the search and rescue where I

2299
02:19:33,560 --> 02:19:36,360
Speaker 8: was at, He's like, we've been looking for you for

2300
02:19:36,400 --> 02:19:40,680
Speaker 8: a couple of days. They actually had an ambulance there,

2301
02:19:41,400 --> 02:19:43,760
Speaker 8: and I got up and crawled me back to the

2302
02:19:43,800 --> 02:19:46,360
Speaker 8: ambulance and they started evaluating me, and they're like, you're

2303
02:19:46,360 --> 02:19:49,039
Speaker 8: going to the hospital. Your bitals are pretty dangerous, my

2304
02:19:49,320 --> 02:19:51,879
Speaker 8: kidney functions that things were getting ready to shut down.

2305
02:19:51,959 --> 02:19:54,640
Speaker 8: So I was one more day and I probably wouldn't

2306
02:19:54,640 --> 02:19:58,480
Speaker 8: be here anymore telling you his story, but it was

2307
02:19:58,560 --> 02:20:00,880
Speaker 8: kind of comical. He just couldn't over the fact that

2308
02:20:01,800 --> 02:20:05,840
Speaker 8: I just went there by myself. He was certain that

2309
02:20:05,879 --> 02:20:09,720
Speaker 8: somebody had dropped me some info or a coordinance or

2310
02:20:09,760 --> 02:20:12,039
Speaker 8: a pan or something, and I'm like, nope, I just

2311
02:20:12,080 --> 02:20:15,280
Speaker 8: came here on my own. One of the things that

2312
02:20:15,959 --> 02:20:19,279
Speaker 8: is just everlasting in my head is when my wife

2313
02:20:19,840 --> 02:20:22,200
Speaker 8: got to the hospital. Obviously it was a little bit

2314
02:20:22,200 --> 02:20:25,240
Speaker 8: of an emotional thing. So heard my father in law,

2315
02:20:25,280 --> 02:20:29,600
Speaker 8: are there living in a small town when you know everybody.

2316
02:20:30,600 --> 02:20:32,760
Speaker 8: When we got married was a big event. We had

2317
02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:34,760
Speaker 8: a lot of people there and stuff, and she said

2318
02:20:34,760 --> 02:20:38,600
Speaker 8: something to me that will always stick. She goes, I

2319
02:20:38,600 --> 02:20:42,160
Speaker 8: didn't know if it would be morbid to have your

2320
02:20:42,320 --> 02:20:49,800
Speaker 8: funeral the same place we got married. I didn't know.

2321
02:20:49,800 --> 02:20:50,280
Speaker 3: What to say.

2322
02:20:51,720 --> 02:20:57,800
Speaker 8: Pretty emotional. My whole ankle was cocked ninety degrees off

2323
02:20:57,840 --> 02:21:03,600
Speaker 8: my right leg. It was completely dislocated from where it

2324
02:21:03,640 --> 02:21:08,920
Speaker 8: was supposed to be. I also had frostbite, hypothermia, and

2325
02:21:09,920 --> 02:21:14,240
Speaker 8: all the emotion being in a hospital, the hospital visits,

2326
02:21:14,640 --> 02:21:18,560
Speaker 8: even getting home and transitioning to home. My leg was

2327
02:21:18,600 --> 02:21:21,920
Speaker 8: already damaged before from the bullet going through my thigh,

2328
02:21:22,080 --> 02:21:25,040
Speaker 8: but when I got out of the woods in Montana,

2329
02:21:25,680 --> 02:21:27,840
Speaker 8: I had just worn my right leg down to a

2330
02:21:28,840 --> 02:21:31,720
Speaker 8: there was just nothing left. I mean, I was down

2331
02:21:31,800 --> 02:21:35,200
Speaker 8: to bones, just trying to beat my way out of there,

2332
02:21:36,000 --> 02:21:39,760
Speaker 8: and I just did irreplaceable damage to it and finished

2333
02:21:39,800 --> 02:21:42,840
Speaker 8: it off. I had this horrible infection in my leg,

2334
02:21:43,640 --> 02:21:49,040
Speaker 8: and I went to multiple doctor visits, vascular physicians and whatnot,

2335
02:21:49,120 --> 02:21:51,480
Speaker 8: and they did all this stuff, and they're like, we

2336
02:21:51,520 --> 02:21:55,560
Speaker 8: can preserve your leg, that it'll be a fused joint.

2337
02:21:55,800 --> 02:21:58,800
Speaker 8: You'll have a very noticeable limp the rest of your life.

2338
02:21:59,480 --> 02:21:59,959
Speaker 3: That just did.

2339
02:22:00,000 --> 02:22:04,080
Speaker 8: I didn't really fit into my schedule when they told

2340
02:22:04,160 --> 02:22:06,800
Speaker 8: me that I was going to be close to fourteen

2341
02:22:06,879 --> 02:22:10,680
Speaker 8: months with non weight bearing and pins. I just elected

2342
02:22:10,680 --> 02:22:13,400
Speaker 8: to have my leg amputated. So I had a below

2343
02:22:13,440 --> 02:22:19,000
Speaker 8: the knee amputation done on February fourteenth, and I'm going

2344
02:22:19,040 --> 02:22:22,080
Speaker 8: to be receiving a prosthetic on the seventeenth of April.

2345
02:22:23,600 --> 02:22:26,760
Speaker 8: Losing this leg is actually a good thing. It's a

2346
02:22:26,800 --> 02:22:30,440
Speaker 8: positive thing. Because my leg was so damaged from my

2347
02:22:30,600 --> 02:22:34,720
Speaker 8: hunting accident, my leg would swell up and sometimes it

2348
02:22:34,720 --> 02:22:37,840
Speaker 8: would be near impossible to get a shoe on or

2349
02:22:37,840 --> 02:22:41,440
Speaker 8: a boot on or anything because my ankle was so swollen.

2350
02:22:42,200 --> 02:22:44,440
Speaker 8: I don't have to deal with that anymore, so I'm

2351
02:22:44,480 --> 02:22:48,039
Speaker 8: actually just grateful to not live in chronic pain anymore.

2352
02:22:49,400 --> 02:22:51,600
Speaker 8: I can go down to the beach and dig a

2353
02:22:51,640 --> 02:22:55,080
Speaker 8: limited razor clams, or drive out to the creek and

2354
02:22:56,080 --> 02:22:59,199
Speaker 8: drift a little salmon egg through a hole hitch steel head.

2355
02:22:59,440 --> 02:23:01,320
Speaker 8: I mean, I did that the other day on crutches.

2356
02:23:01,800 --> 02:23:05,040
Speaker 8: It's just it's part of who I am. But it's

2357
02:23:05,040 --> 02:23:09,480
Speaker 8: still a big wild place, and we just don't want

2358
02:23:09,480 --> 02:23:12,840
Speaker 8: to lose touch of how quick things can go bad.

2359
02:23:13,040 --> 02:23:17,400
Speaker 8: And that's why I wanted to tell this story. What

2360
02:23:17,680 --> 02:23:20,600
Speaker 8: happened to me shouldn't have happened. I should have had

2361
02:23:20,640 --> 02:23:23,440
Speaker 8: everything on me that I needed. That's what I can't

2362
02:23:23,440 --> 02:23:26,600
Speaker 8: stress enough is if you leave the road, you better

2363
02:23:26,640 --> 02:23:30,240
Speaker 8: be prepared to leave the road. What happened to me

2364
02:23:30,640 --> 02:23:35,320
Speaker 8: is just due to my personality and my ignorance and

2365
02:23:35,680 --> 02:23:38,039
Speaker 8: trying to be in a hurry and cutting corners and

2366
02:23:38,240 --> 02:23:41,760
Speaker 8: just trying to fit too much into one small bag,

2367
02:23:42,520 --> 02:23:46,520
Speaker 8: got me hurt and could have got me killed, and

2368
02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:51,560
Speaker 8: has now put a real big skew in my life

2369
02:23:51,640 --> 02:23:59,959
Speaker 8: at this age. Last night, it was my daughter's birth

2370
02:24:00,320 --> 02:24:03,080
Speaker 8: and we're singing her Happy Birthday, and I'm looking in

2371
02:24:03,120 --> 02:24:08,000
Speaker 8: that little girl's eyes and i just glad to be here.

2372
02:24:08,080 --> 02:24:13,760
Speaker 8: You know, you just don't know when you're gonna meet

2373
02:24:13,800 --> 02:24:19,320
Speaker 8: your maker, So maybe just kind of give everything a

2374
02:24:19,400 --> 02:24:23,240
Speaker 8: second thought. Go Is that a good idea? You can

2375
02:24:23,280 --> 02:24:26,640
Speaker 8: go out there and have a good time, but make

2376
02:24:26,680 --> 02:24:30,560
Speaker 8: sure you have your keys crossed and your eyes dotted.