Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Thursday, January twenty second, and
Speaker 1: we got a late night verdict in the Uvaldi trial
Speaker 1: and the officer being held responsible, the one that they
Speaker 1: said should be held accountable for what happened in that
Speaker 1: mass shooting. He has now been found not guilty of
Speaker 1: child engagement. With that. Welcome to this episode of Amy
Speaker 1: and TJ. Roabes. We kind of stopped keeping an eye
Speaker 1: on jury deliberations because we thought they'd wrap up, but
Speaker 1: they stuck around last night and kept working and delivered
Speaker 1: a pretty significant verdict there.
Speaker 2: Yes, this came down late last night and back to
Speaker 2: full admission. I was already asleep, so I woke up
Speaker 2: to this news after deliberating for seven hours. After a
Speaker 2: two week trial, former police officer Adrian Gonzalez Yes, was
Speaker 2: found not guilty. He was facing twenty nine counts of
Speaker 2: child endangerment for the nineteen children who died and the
Speaker 2: ten children who survived in those classrooms. He was accused
Speaker 2: of basically not acting, failing to take action. As he
Speaker 2: was the first officer. A few more came up on
Speaker 2: the scene within minutes. At the scene of the of
Speaker 2: Aaldise school shooting and the prosecutors said he was there
Speaker 2: before the gunman entered the building, and their assertion was
Speaker 2: that he could have prevented the gunmen from going into
Speaker 2: the building.
Speaker 1: Oh the significance here, folks, is that these parents of
Speaker 1: all of these kids have been waiting for a long
Speaker 1: time for some kind of accountability, some kind of justice.
Speaker 1: This is what many of them felt was there first
Speaker 1: and maybe one of their only shots at it. This
Speaker 1: is the only man at this point who has been
Speaker 1: held accountable, who has been held criminally accountable for what
Speaker 1: happened that day. Well, we say held accountable, but now
Speaker 1: a lot of people are clearly viewing this as he
Speaker 1: is not being held accountable and he did not do
Speaker 1: his job. That was key here, Robes. You signed up
Speaker 1: as a police officers has to protect and serve, and
Speaker 1: it sounds simple on the surface. You sign up as
Speaker 1: an officer, that means you will give your life to
Speaker 1: protect innocent life and so in the most basic of forms,
Speaker 1: a lot of people, I think a lot of Americans
Speaker 1: have a difficult time understanding that a police officer arriving
Speaker 1: on the scene before the gunman, here's one hundred shots
Speaker 1: go off and he never goes into the building. You
Speaker 1: have a hard time understanding how he might have acted appropriately.
Speaker 2: I completely agree, And yes, there was obvious outrage, emotional
Speaker 2: outrage among the parents of these children, the family members
Speaker 2: of teachers, teachers themselves clearly emotionally visibly upset. Yes, they
Speaker 2: wanted this officer, Officer Gonzales held accountable and other officers
Speaker 2: held accountable. There was a seventy seven minute lag between
Speaker 2: when those first shots were fired and when officers finally
Speaker 2: stormed that room, the Border patrol officers who shot and
Speaker 2: killed the gunmen and eventually brought an end to the
Speaker 2: bloodshed and the violence. But this is disturbing. Jurors heard
Speaker 2: the courtroom, heard the public herd shots, and we heard teachers,
Speaker 2: at least one teacher saying she told officer Gonzales, he's
Speaker 2: in there, he's there, he's in black. And you heard
Speaker 2: Gonzales putting all of that information out on the radio,
Speaker 2: but not acting. They said, prosecutors that he froze, that
Speaker 2: he did not do his job. He had been trained.
Speaker 2: They went over his training, They went over all of
Speaker 2: the training that police officers get, and in every instance
Speaker 2: it is to act to run towards gunfire, not to cower,
Speaker 2: not to take and seek protection, not to hide, not
Speaker 2: to radio, but to go in towards gunfire. That is
Speaker 2: what police officers are supposed to do.
Speaker 1: That's the prosecution argument. The defense certainly had a response
Speaker 1: to that that obviously won over this particular juror. But
Speaker 1: the key question here was is there something criminally wrong
Speaker 1: with this man's actions? Can we hold a police officer
Speaker 1: criminally liable for his reaction in a moment of chaos
Speaker 1: and a moment of panic. That was a key question
Speaker 1: they had to consider, and obviously they came back with
Speaker 1: a unanonymous verdict saying that Adrian Gonzales should not be
Speaker 1: held accountable. Now, the prosecution did make the argument robes
Speaker 1: you were making, and they flat out said in the
Speaker 1: closing argument, Hey, if you don't want to do this,
Speaker 1: find another line of work, that's fine, But your life
Speaker 1: is not as valuable as innocent life. You didn't do
Speaker 1: your job. It sounds that simple, and that's the argument
Speaker 1: they drove home throughout this case. Yes, it was emotional
Speaker 1: ass all get out. There were at times emotional outbursts
Speaker 1: in the courtroom where there were questions and threats about
Speaker 1: a mistrial because people couldn't keep it together. But they
Speaker 1: got past all of that to get to this moment,
Speaker 1: to get to yesterday. These parents have been waiting four
Speaker 1: years almost for what they feel should be justice. These
Speaker 1: same parents who were screaming at officers, please go in,
Speaker 1: or even let me go in to save my own kid.
Speaker 1: This was the moment. And now you had reactions afterwards
Speaker 1: of parents absolutely saying this sends the message to police
Speaker 1: officers show up at a scene. You ain't gotta do nothing.
Speaker 1: In fact, maybe you shouldn't because you might up getting
Speaker 1: held criminally liable for your actions that someone then deemed
Speaker 1: aren't the right actions. So don't even go to the scene,
Speaker 1: is what some are arguing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what the defense actually used as part of
Speaker 2: their argument in defending Gonzales, saying, if you end up
Speaker 2: giving this man a guilty verdict, if he faces charges
Speaker 2: and a conviction for these crimes prosecutors are alleging, then
Speaker 2: you are now going to send a message to every
Speaker 2: officer stay in the perimeter. Actually, don't even go to
Speaker 2: the scene, because if you don't act perfectly, if you
Speaker 2: don't react perfectly, you will be held criminally responsible. And
Speaker 2: so he was saying it would send a message of
Speaker 2: deterrence for police officers. Actually it would do the opposite.
Speaker 2: Instead of encouraging officers to run towards the scene, they
Speaker 2: would just stay away. Because their point was there were
Speaker 2: other officers there and they were not charged because they
Speaker 2: were deemed following orders. They were setting up a perimeter
Speaker 2: or doing other things that they were told to do,
Speaker 2: so they were not held responsible. So the defense said,
Speaker 2: then that would be the directive to officers to avoid
Speaker 2: any sort of potential questioning down the line about their actions.
Speaker 2: Just go do something.
Speaker 1: Else, and look, we are uh. And most people listening
Speaker 1: saw headlines about this case and didn't deep do as
Speaker 1: deep up a dive as maybe even we did because
Speaker 1: we watched it so often. But also a lot of
Speaker 1: people are not reading a lot of this testimony and
Speaker 1: getting to the nitty gritty of the eyes and the
Speaker 1: eyes doted and teach crossed when it comes to legalities
Speaker 1: of this. But the defense did make some arguments. He said, yes,
Speaker 1: things weren't perfect, but you can't punish an officer for
Speaker 1: not being perfect. There were failures, but what we're saying
Speaker 1: here is nobody tried to fail. I thought that was
Speaker 1: a good defense way to put it. Yes, he failed,
Speaker 1: but he wasn't trying to and you can't hold him
Speaker 1: responsible in this chaos of everything not being perfect. I
Speaker 1: thought that was effective.
Speaker 2: I did too, And they said he was being made escapegoat.
Speaker 2: And that is a point that he Look, the police
Speaker 2: chief is facing charges and he will have a trial
Speaker 2: at a later date. But he was the only office
Speaker 2: are on the scene who was charged, and there were
Speaker 2: several there within those first few minutes, and ultimately I
Speaker 2: believe hundreds of officers ended up showing up. But he
Speaker 2: talked about the confusion. He talked about how Gonzales did
Speaker 2: go into the school, into the hallway they called it
Speaker 2: the hallway of death, I believe, and when they had
Speaker 2: shots fired to them, they retreated. When I heard that
Speaker 2: word retreat though, it's still sent to shiver up my spine.
Speaker 2: You don't think about police officers retreating. And that was
Speaker 2: the prosecution's argument.
Speaker 1: That was the middle of one of the outbursts. A
Speaker 1: fatal tunnel, I think, is what it's called. I wasn't
Speaker 1: that familiar with his phrase, but it makes sense. You
Speaker 1: hell you see did in movies. You don't have officers
Speaker 1: lined up in all way, one person, one with a
Speaker 1: gunman can step out there and they're in literally a
Speaker 1: tunnel to where they could all get shot.
Speaker 2: It's like being in a big sense.
Speaker 1: That makes sense the argument, And again it's it's simple
Speaker 1: for or it seems simple for a layperson, folks like
Speaker 1: us who aren't in the legal field, who aren't in
Speaker 1: law enforcement. But they are the ones who were telling
Speaker 1: us robes plenty of people, ex there's gunfire, there are
Speaker 1: children inside. Go, there's nothing to talk about. You don't
Speaker 1: wait for backup. You tell me there are babies in there,
Speaker 1: and I hear gunfire in there. You don't stand and
Speaker 1: wait for something to happen. That, yes, that's the case.
Speaker 1: Maybe you should be fired, maybe you should find another
Speaker 1: line of work, But should you be held criminally liable?
Speaker 2: That's a good point. And several people were fired, and
Speaker 2: several people did leave the police force after this tragedy.
Speaker 2: But it was interesting, I thought on the trial when
Speaker 2: the prosecution and this was used, or they attempted to
Speaker 2: use this against mister Gonzalez, but they played a video
Speaker 2: of an interrogation of him the day after the massacre,
Speaker 2: where he told investigators that he was focused on the
Speaker 2: woman who is telling him, you know, the the gunman's
Speaker 2: in there, and he wasn't focused on the gunman's movements.
Speaker 2: He's claiming he never saw the gunman, he didn't know
Speaker 2: where the gunman was. But he said something that was
Speaker 2: held and used against him. He said, it was my mistake.
Speaker 2: But it's just the adrenaline rush going and you know,
Speaker 2: shots fired and stuff like that. It was my mistake.
Speaker 2: They were using his own words to say, you even
Speaker 2: admitted that you screwed up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you screw up, is that a criminal act?
Speaker 1: I actually don't know. But the jury, certainly I was
Speaker 1: listening even more closely than we were, certainly came to
Speaker 1: the conclusion that the law does not allow this man
Speaker 1: to be charged for what he did. It's very difficult
Speaker 1: to understand that not a single kid had been shot
Speaker 1: by the time Adrian Gonzalez got to highchool.
Speaker 2: That's so heartbreaking to even know.
Speaker 1: Tell me, how, how did he act appropriately? If he
Speaker 1: saved one, if he saved two, if he got shot himself,
Speaker 1: if he just directed the shooter's attention, That for a
Speaker 1: layperson sounds like, come on, dude, you obviously did something wrong.
Speaker 1: You should be held responsible and people are dead because
Speaker 1: of it. Folks, The gunman was not in the school
Speaker 1: when Adrian Gonzalez got there. If he'd have done anything differently,
Speaker 1: if he'd have gone towards the direction where the woman
Speaker 1: was pointing saying he was over there, things could have
Speaker 1: gone differently. The teacher went back into the school. The
Speaker 1: prosecution made such an emotional case robes that everybody acted
Speaker 1: in defense of those kids except the guy with the gun.
Speaker 1: Those job it was and sworn to protect them with
Speaker 1: his own life. That's tough, that's emotional.
Speaker 2: It is tough because and that was one of the
Speaker 2: emotional outbursts. Those teachers didn't have guns, Those children didn't
Speaker 2: have weapons. Those everyone inside that building who were being
Speaker 2: shot at and you could hear the shots ringing out,
Speaker 2: had zero protection. They had no weapons. And here you
Speaker 2: have an officer of the law who has gone through
Speaker 2: training to deal with this exact active shooter scenario, who
Speaker 2: has a weapon, and he chose to stay where he
Speaker 2: was to radio for help, to basically narrate what was
Speaker 2: happening over the radio, rather than take action.
Speaker 1: They said he was trying. They used the word he
Speaker 1: was trying. He was trying to do his duty. Yes,
Speaker 1: mistakes were made and it added to the pain of
Speaker 1: the day, but he made mistakes, but he acted. He
Speaker 1: also said he didn't just stand there. He was actively
Speaker 1: doing other things. I don't know. They said later he
Speaker 1: was helping usher kids out or something in the other broke.
Speaker 2: Windows, I believe, to help some of them escape.
Speaker 1: So they said, they make it sound like he just
Speaker 1: stand around drilling his thumbs while this was going on,
Speaker 1: and that's not the case. Look, the defense made a
Speaker 1: good this was near the end of closing arguments by saying,
Speaker 1: you don't honor the memory of these kids by doing
Speaker 1: injustice in their name. Okay, I mean, I get that,
Speaker 1: but this is so tough emotionally and to details to
Speaker 1: a lay person don't make a whole lot of sense.
Speaker 1: But folks, stay here. This is not the first time
Speaker 1: we've seen a case like this. However, the result ends
Speaker 1: up being the same as the other case. Will explain
Speaker 1: also tell you who else is going to be facing
Speaker 1: trial for the Euvaldi shooting. We continue here on this
Speaker 1: Thursday morning. On Amy and TJ got a late night
Speaker 1: verdict from the jurors and the Uvalde case of Adrian Gonzales,
Speaker 1: the only officer of the first officer to be held
Speaker 1: criminally responsible for the shooting at rob Elementary School in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two that left nineteen kids killed. Two teachers
Speaker 1: died as well. But the jury came back and said
Speaker 1: not guilty, that Adrian Gonzales should not be held criminally
Speaker 1: liable for twenty nine counts of child endangerment ropes. The
Speaker 1: police chief we mentioned I didn't see, Sorry, I don't
Speaker 1: happen in front of me, but the police chief for
Speaker 1: the Uvalde School District is supposed to be heading to trial. Well,
Speaker 1: and I mean if you were his attorneys, when you
Speaker 1: follow the same playbook.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, this is Chief Pte Arrendondo, and he was the
Speaker 2: face of this in terms of just in the days
Speaker 2: that followed, and he was obviously in charge of the
Speaker 2: police response to the shooting. And I obviously the defense
Speaker 2: attorneys who are representing Chief Arrendondo are clearly and were
Speaker 2: watching this trial, and yeah, why wouldn't they go after
Speaker 2: the same playbook. I was wondering if prosecutors even feel
Speaker 2: confident about going forward with that case at this point,
Speaker 2: and look it, being there on the scene and feeling
Speaker 2: the emotion of the parents when it happened there in
Speaker 2: Uvalde and knowing how frustrated, and that's not even the
Speaker 2: right word, just to know that you weren't even allowed
Speaker 2: to go into that building to save and protect your children,
Speaker 2: that you weren't allowed to and parents were trying, and
Speaker 2: that police officers they were screaming at them go inside.
Speaker 2: It was horrific. And to think that now the officer
Speaker 2: who was there, who didn't act, was found not guilty
Speaker 2: to go after the police chief now seems surreal and
Speaker 2: maybe even a waste of taxpayer dollars.
Speaker 1: I mean, I get assume they brought these cases because
Speaker 1: they think they have a case. There's plenty that will
Speaker 1: argue that they are trying to hold somebody irresponsible for
Speaker 1: what happened, and you want to like somebody, this is
Speaker 1: somebody's fault. Yes, there were mistakes made this, but nineteen
Speaker 1: babies are dead. You can't help. But it's not just
Speaker 1: that a mass shooting took place. It was what happened afterwards.
Speaker 1: Adrian Gonzalez heard one hundred plus shots while he was
Speaker 1: standing outside after shot ten. Why didn't you go in
Speaker 1: their kids in the school after shot thirty? After you
Speaker 1: heard shot number sixty.
Speaker 2: Still and that is what officers are trained to do.
Speaker 1: You're standing here.
Speaker 2: He had point blank and that's what other officers testified.
Speaker 1: To He waited for a backup he made he didn't testify.
Speaker 1: We should say that as well, but he did make
Speaker 1: the argument he waited for cover and didn't go in. Okay,
Speaker 1: I just legally you shouldn't be held criminally responsible. But man,
Speaker 1: that's tough, and that's got to be tough for him
Speaker 1: the rest of his life to deal with it.
Speaker 2: Oh, he has to be with I actually had that thought.
Speaker 2: Yes he was found not guilty, and yes he thanked
Speaker 2: his family and his defense attorneys, he said just a
Speaker 2: few words after the verdict was read, and he was
Speaker 2: directly asked if he had any thing to say to
Speaker 2: the parents of the children who were killed, and he said, no,
Speaker 2: not at this time. But I was imagining, even though yes,
Speaker 2: he is a free man, now, is he free, he
Speaker 2: has to live in his own prison, in his own
Speaker 2: kind of prison, because of what he knows about himself,
Speaker 2: what he knows parents, most of those parents think of him.
Speaker 2: That has to be a weight that is heavier than
Speaker 2: any chain, than anything I can imagine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can he Is it possible he goes to bed
Speaker 1: at night thinking I did the right thing that day.
Speaker 1: It's tough to imagine. Look, we in our daily lives
Speaker 1: things that go wrong and simple stuff. Man if I
Speaker 1: had only done that differently, and you beat yourself up
Speaker 1: about all kinds of things in a relationship, at a job,
Speaker 1: at a daily assign whatever, this is one man, If
Speaker 1: I had only done blank differently, twenty one people might
Speaker 1: be alive. That is heavy, That is weighty, that is
Speaker 1: and I do not envy the position that he is
Speaker 1: in now. And your heart goes out to him in
Speaker 1: some respect, just as a human being.
Speaker 2: He panicked, you know, he panicked in the chaos. He
Speaker 2: said he had tunnel vision, did he not? I believe
Speaker 2: that was what he said. And yes, I do have compassion,
Speaker 2: tremendous compassion for what he has to live with by
Speaker 2: making a bad call, by letting fear perhaps guide him
Speaker 2: instead of instead of I don't even want to say bravery,
Speaker 2: because I know people have said, is it a crime
Speaker 2: to be a coward? I hate to even put that
Speaker 2: label on him. But he let fear cripple him. Fear
Speaker 2: can motivate, you can cripple you, and he allowed it
Speaker 2: to cripple him at that moment.
Speaker 1: It cripples a lot of people, Yes it does. Shouldn't
Speaker 1: have a badge and a gun if it's going to
Speaker 1: cripple you when I need you, because I call nine
Speaker 1: one because I'm in trouble, and there are people who
Speaker 1: will come save my life that I pay for.
Speaker 2: And risk their own lives to save your.
Speaker 1: Life because they signed up for it and they're expecting
Speaker 1: my call. So I'm gonna call them. But then they
Speaker 1: don't show up, or they show up and don't do
Speaker 1: anything that is not what the system is designed to do.
Speaker 1: Absolutely correct, But we will or we have robes seeing
Speaker 1: this before and it was the same result. Marjorie Douglas
Speaker 1: High School down in Florida shooting down there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Parkland shooting. The only officer he stayed outside. He
Speaker 2: went through a trial very much like this one, and
Speaker 2: it ended very much like this one. That officer was acquitted.
Speaker 2: You know, I was curious. We haven't discussed our reaction
Speaker 2: to the verdict because we just haven't had this conversation.
Speaker 2: But I was thinking, you probably are not surprised at
Speaker 2: all because you have said this. It is. It is
Speaker 2: almost impossible. If you look at all the cases where
Speaker 2: police officers have been held accountable for the death of
Speaker 2: someone while they were on the job, it's rare, to
Speaker 2: say the very least.
Speaker 1: Well, the law and certainly jurors often defer to police
Speaker 1: officers in their actions or their reactions and split second
Speaker 1: decision making, chaos, panic, danger, they do. And there are
Speaker 1: legal protections for officers as well. I'm sure a lot
Speaker 1: of officers will tell you. We can't be in a
Speaker 1: position to where we think if an officer gets to
Speaker 1: a scene, he can't be the first thing on his mind. Okay,
Speaker 1: if I do this, I might get sued. If I
Speaker 1: do this, I might get charged. You just can't.
Speaker 2: You can't be second guessing every decision.
Speaker 1: You're kidding, But so you have to give them the
Speaker 1: freedom to act. Adrian Gonzalez had the freedom to act
Speaker 1: like if he started just going through the windows and
Speaker 1: looking through and firing shots and figure it anything like
Speaker 1: the law would protect him if he thought he was
Speaker 1: protecting those kids. And here we are. It's tough to
Speaker 1: go through another trial. Do the parents want that? Now?
Speaker 2: See? That's what I was thinking after this verdict of
Speaker 2: not guilty and We saw the emotion in the courtroom
Speaker 2: and as you pointed out, you know, a teacher had
Speaker 2: to be escorted at or I believe the sister of
Speaker 2: a teacher had to be escorted out. There was a
Speaker 2: teacher on the stand who they said, you can't consider
Speaker 2: what she just testified to because there was so much
Speaker 2: emotion and this community. I mean, there were family members
Speaker 2: as you might imagine, who traveled hours to Corpus Christi
Speaker 2: because this trial took place outside of Uvalde, which is understandable,
Speaker 2: so that they could get a fairer, more impartial jury
Speaker 2: or an impartial jury. And so these family members were
Speaker 2: driving hours to Corpus Christi to see this justice. And
Speaker 2: are they really up for another trial?
Speaker 1: We shall see. But folks want to hop on and
Speaker 1: give you this update. A lot of you probably missed
Speaker 1: the update overnight. But yes, in the case of the
Speaker 1: Uvalde officer I was accused of failing to act and
Speaker 1: possibly resulted in death at rob Elementary School in Uvalde
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, he has been acquitted found not
Speaker 1: guilty of twenty nine counts of child endangerment. We always
Speaker 1: appreciate you spending some time with us. Keep an eye
Speaker 1: on our feet today that is going to be a
Speaker 1: number of significant updates. Oh my goodness, we can tell
Speaker 1: already news is breaking from dobbles. But keep an eye
Speaker 1: on our feet. Top right corner of your Apple podcast
Speaker 1: appter a little button that says follow. Click that and
Speaker 1: you can get our updates coming to you. But as always,
Speaker 1: we appreciate you spending time with us. I'm TJ. Holmes
Speaker 1: on behalf of my dear Amy roboc Will Trophy.
Speaker 2: Also