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Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Thursday, January twenty second, and

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Speaker 1: we got a late night verdict in the Uvaldi trial

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Speaker 1: and the officer being held responsible, the one that they

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Speaker 1: said should be held accountable for what happened in that

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Speaker 1: mass shooting. He has now been found not guilty of

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Speaker 1: child engagement. With that. Welcome to this episode of Amy

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Speaker 1: and TJ. Roabes. We kind of stopped keeping an eye

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Speaker 1: on jury deliberations because we thought they'd wrap up, but

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Speaker 1: they stuck around last night and kept working and delivered

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Speaker 1: a pretty significant verdict there.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this came down late last night and back to

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Speaker 2: full admission. I was already asleep, so I woke up

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Speaker 2: to this news after deliberating for seven hours. After a

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Speaker 2: two week trial, former police officer Adrian Gonzalez Yes, was

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Speaker 2: found not guilty. He was facing twenty nine counts of

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Speaker 2: child endangerment for the nineteen children who died and the

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Speaker 2: ten children who survived in those classrooms. He was accused

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Speaker 2: of basically not acting, failing to take action. As he

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Speaker 2: was the first officer. A few more came up on

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Speaker 2: the scene within minutes. At the scene of the of

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Speaker 2: Aaldise school shooting and the prosecutors said he was there

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Speaker 2: before the gunman entered the building, and their assertion was

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Speaker 2: that he could have prevented the gunmen from going into

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Speaker 2: the building.

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Speaker 1: Oh the significance here, folks, is that these parents of

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Speaker 1: all of these kids have been waiting for a long

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Speaker 1: time for some kind of accountability, some kind of justice.

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Speaker 1: This is what many of them felt was there first

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Speaker 1: and maybe one of their only shots at it. This

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Speaker 1: is the only man at this point who has been

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Speaker 1: held accountable, who has been held criminally accountable for what

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Speaker 1: happened that day. Well, we say held accountable, but now

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are clearly viewing this as he

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Speaker 1: is not being held accountable and he did not do

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Speaker 1: his job. That was key here, Robes. You signed up

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Speaker 1: as a police officers has to protect and serve, and

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Speaker 1: it sounds simple on the surface. You sign up as

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Speaker 1: an officer, that means you will give your life to

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Speaker 1: protect innocent life and so in the most basic of forms,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, I think a lot of Americans

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Speaker 1: have a difficult time understanding that a police officer arriving

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Speaker 1: on the scene before the gunman, here's one hundred shots

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Speaker 1: go off and he never goes into the building. You

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Speaker 1: have a hard time understanding how he might have acted appropriately.

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Speaker 2: I completely agree, And yes, there was obvious outrage, emotional

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Speaker 2: outrage among the parents of these children, the family members

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Speaker 2: of teachers, teachers themselves clearly emotionally visibly upset. Yes, they

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Speaker 2: wanted this officer, Officer Gonzales held accountable and other officers

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Speaker 2: held accountable. There was a seventy seven minute lag between

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Speaker 2: when those first shots were fired and when officers finally

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Speaker 2: stormed that room, the Border patrol officers who shot and

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Speaker 2: killed the gunmen and eventually brought an end to the

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Speaker 2: bloodshed and the violence. But this is disturbing. Jurors heard

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Speaker 2: the courtroom, heard the public herd shots, and we heard teachers,

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Speaker 2: at least one teacher saying she told officer Gonzales, he's

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Speaker 2: in there, he's there, he's in black. And you heard

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Speaker 2: Gonzales putting all of that information out on the radio,

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Speaker 2: but not acting. They said, prosecutors that he froze, that

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Speaker 2: he did not do his job. He had been trained.

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Speaker 2: They went over his training, They went over all of

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Speaker 2: the training that police officers get, and in every instance

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Speaker 2: it is to act to run towards gunfire, not to cower,

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Speaker 2: not to take and seek protection, not to hide, not

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Speaker 2: to radio, but to go in towards gunfire. That is

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Speaker 2: what police officers are supposed to do.

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Speaker 1: That's the prosecution argument. The defense certainly had a response

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Speaker 1: to that that obviously won over this particular juror. But

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Speaker 1: the key question here was is there something criminally wrong

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Speaker 1: with this man's actions? Can we hold a police officer

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Speaker 1: criminally liable for his reaction in a moment of chaos

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Speaker 1: and a moment of panic. That was a key question

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Speaker 1: they had to consider, and obviously they came back with

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Speaker 1: a unanonymous verdict saying that Adrian Gonzales should not be

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Speaker 1: held accountable. Now, the prosecution did make the argument robes

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Speaker 1: you were making, and they flat out said in the

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Speaker 1: closing argument, Hey, if you don't want to do this,

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Speaker 1: find another line of work, that's fine, But your life

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Speaker 1: is not as valuable as innocent life. You didn't do

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Speaker 1: your job. It sounds that simple, and that's the argument

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Speaker 1: they drove home throughout this case. Yes, it was emotional

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Speaker 1: ass all get out. There were at times emotional outbursts

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Speaker 1: in the courtroom where there were questions and threats about

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Speaker 1: a mistrial because people couldn't keep it together. But they

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Speaker 1: got past all of that to get to this moment,

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Speaker 1: to get to yesterday. These parents have been waiting four

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Speaker 1: years almost for what they feel should be justice. These

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Speaker 1: same parents who were screaming at officers, please go in,

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Speaker 1: or even let me go in to save my own kid.

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Speaker 1: This was the moment. And now you had reactions afterwards

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Speaker 1: of parents absolutely saying this sends the message to police

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Speaker 1: officers show up at a scene. You ain't gotta do nothing.

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Speaker 1: In fact, maybe you shouldn't because you might up getting

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Speaker 1: held criminally liable for your actions that someone then deemed

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Speaker 1: aren't the right actions. So don't even go to the scene,

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Speaker 1: is what some are arguing that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what the defense actually used as part of

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Speaker 2: their argument in defending Gonzales, saying, if you end up

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Speaker 2: giving this man a guilty verdict, if he faces charges

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Speaker 2: and a conviction for these crimes prosecutors are alleging, then

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Speaker 2: you are now going to send a message to every

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Speaker 2: officer stay in the perimeter. Actually, don't even go to

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Speaker 2: the scene, because if you don't act perfectly, if you

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Speaker 2: don't react perfectly, you will be held criminally responsible. And

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Speaker 2: so he was saying it would send a message of

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Speaker 2: deterrence for police officers. Actually it would do the opposite.

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Speaker 2: Instead of encouraging officers to run towards the scene, they

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Speaker 2: would just stay away. Because their point was there were

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Speaker 2: other officers there and they were not charged because they

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Speaker 2: were deemed following orders. They were setting up a perimeter

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Speaker 2: or doing other things that they were told to do,

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Speaker 2: so they were not held responsible. So the defense said,

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Speaker 2: then that would be the directive to officers to avoid

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Speaker 2: any sort of potential questioning down the line about their actions.

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Speaker 2: Just go do something.

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Speaker 1: Else, and look, we are uh. And most people listening

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Speaker 1: saw headlines about this case and didn't deep do as

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Speaker 1: deep up a dive as maybe even we did because

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Speaker 1: we watched it so often. But also a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are not reading a lot of this testimony and

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Speaker 1: getting to the nitty gritty of the eyes and the

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Speaker 1: eyes doted and teach crossed when it comes to legalities

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Speaker 1: of this. But the defense did make some arguments. He said, yes,

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Speaker 1: things weren't perfect, but you can't punish an officer for

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Speaker 1: not being perfect. There were failures, but what we're saying

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Speaker 1: here is nobody tried to fail. I thought that was

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Speaker 1: a good defense way to put it. Yes, he failed,

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Speaker 1: but he wasn't trying to and you can't hold him

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Speaker 1: responsible in this chaos of everything not being perfect. I

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Speaker 1: thought that was effective.

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Speaker 2: I did too, And they said he was being made escapegoat.

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Speaker 2: And that is a point that he Look, the police

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Speaker 2: chief is facing charges and he will have a trial

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Speaker 2: at a later date. But he was the only office

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Speaker 2: are on the scene who was charged, and there were

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Speaker 2: several there within those first few minutes, and ultimately I

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Speaker 2: believe hundreds of officers ended up showing up. But he

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Speaker 2: talked about the confusion. He talked about how Gonzales did

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Speaker 2: go into the school, into the hallway they called it

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Speaker 2: the hallway of death, I believe, and when they had

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Speaker 2: shots fired to them, they retreated. When I heard that

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Speaker 2: word retreat though, it's still sent to shiver up my spine.

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Speaker 2: You don't think about police officers retreating. And that was

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Speaker 2: the prosecution's argument.

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Speaker 1: That was the middle of one of the outbursts. A

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Speaker 1: fatal tunnel, I think, is what it's called. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: that familiar with his phrase, but it makes sense. You

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Speaker 1: hell you see did in movies. You don't have officers

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Speaker 1: lined up in all way, one person, one with a

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Speaker 1: gunman can step out there and they're in literally a

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Speaker 1: tunnel to where they could all get shot.

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Speaker 2: It's like being in a big sense.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense the argument, And again it's it's simple

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Speaker 1: for or it seems simple for a layperson, folks like

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Speaker 1: us who aren't in the legal field, who aren't in

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Speaker 1: law enforcement. But they are the ones who were telling

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Speaker 1: us robes plenty of people, ex there's gunfire, there are

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Speaker 1: children inside. Go, there's nothing to talk about. You don't

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Speaker 1: wait for backup. You tell me there are babies in there,

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Speaker 1: and I hear gunfire in there. You don't stand and

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Speaker 1: wait for something to happen. That, yes, that's the case.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you should be fired, maybe you should find another

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Speaker 1: line of work, But should you be held criminally liable?

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Speaker 2: That's a good point. And several people were fired, and

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Speaker 2: several people did leave the police force after this tragedy.

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Speaker 2: But it was interesting, I thought on the trial when

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Speaker 2: the prosecution and this was used, or they attempted to

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Speaker 2: use this against mister Gonzalez, but they played a video

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Speaker 2: of an interrogation of him the day after the massacre,

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Speaker 2: where he told investigators that he was focused on the

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Speaker 2: woman who is telling him, you know, the the gunman's

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Speaker 2: in there, and he wasn't focused on the gunman's movements.

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Speaker 2: He's claiming he never saw the gunman, he didn't know

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Speaker 2: where the gunman was. But he said something that was

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Speaker 2: held and used against him. He said, it was my mistake.

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Speaker 2: But it's just the adrenaline rush going and you know,

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Speaker 2: shots fired and stuff like that. It was my mistake.

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Speaker 2: They were using his own words to say, you even

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Speaker 2: admitted that you screwed up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you screw up, is that a criminal act?

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Speaker 1: I actually don't know. But the jury, certainly I was

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Speaker 1: listening even more closely than we were, certainly came to

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Speaker 1: the conclusion that the law does not allow this man

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Speaker 1: to be charged for what he did. It's very difficult

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Speaker 1: to understand that not a single kid had been shot

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Speaker 1: by the time Adrian Gonzalez got to highchool.

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Speaker 2: That's so heartbreaking to even know.

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Speaker 1: Tell me, how, how did he act appropriately? If he

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Speaker 1: saved one, if he saved two, if he got shot himself,

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Speaker 1: if he just directed the shooter's attention, That for a

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Speaker 1: layperson sounds like, come on, dude, you obviously did something wrong.

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Speaker 1: You should be held responsible and people are dead because

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Speaker 1: of it. Folks, The gunman was not in the school

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Speaker 1: when Adrian Gonzalez got there. If he'd have done anything differently,

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Speaker 1: if he'd have gone towards the direction where the woman

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Speaker 1: was pointing saying he was over there, things could have

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Speaker 1: gone differently. The teacher went back into the school. The

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Speaker 1: prosecution made such an emotional case robes that everybody acted

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Speaker 1: in defense of those kids except the guy with the gun.

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Speaker 1: Those job it was and sworn to protect them with

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Speaker 1: his own life. That's tough, that's emotional.

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Speaker 2: It is tough because and that was one of the

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Speaker 2: emotional outbursts. Those teachers didn't have guns, Those children didn't

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Speaker 2: have weapons. Those everyone inside that building who were being

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Speaker 2: shot at and you could hear the shots ringing out,

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Speaker 2: had zero protection. They had no weapons. And here you

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Speaker 2: have an officer of the law who has gone through

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Speaker 2: training to deal with this exact active shooter scenario, who

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Speaker 2: has a weapon, and he chose to stay where he

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Speaker 2: was to radio for help, to basically narrate what was

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Speaker 2: happening over the radio, rather than take action.

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Speaker 1: They said he was trying. They used the word he

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Speaker 1: was trying. He was trying to do his duty. Yes,

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Speaker 1: mistakes were made and it added to the pain of

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Speaker 1: the day, but he made mistakes, but he acted. He

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Speaker 1: also said he didn't just stand there. He was actively

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Speaker 1: doing other things. I don't know. They said later he

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Speaker 1: was helping usher kids out or something in the other broke.

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Speaker 2: Windows, I believe, to help some of them escape.

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Speaker 1: So they said, they make it sound like he just

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Speaker 1: stand around drilling his thumbs while this was going on,

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Speaker 1: and that's not the case. Look, the defense made a

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Speaker 1: good this was near the end of closing arguments by saying,

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Speaker 1: you don't honor the memory of these kids by doing

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Speaker 1: injustice in their name. Okay, I mean, I get that,

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Speaker 1: but this is so tough emotionally and to details to

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Speaker 1: a lay person don't make a whole lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: But folks, stay here. This is not the first time

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Speaker 1: we've seen a case like this. However, the result ends

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Speaker 1: up being the same as the other case. Will explain

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Speaker 1: also tell you who else is going to be facing

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Speaker 1: trial for the Euvaldi shooting. We continue here on this

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Speaker 1: Thursday morning. On Amy and TJ got a late night

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Speaker 1: verdict from the jurors and the Uvalde case of Adrian Gonzales,

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Speaker 1: the only officer of the first officer to be held

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Speaker 1: criminally responsible for the shooting at rob Elementary School in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two that left nineteen kids killed. Two teachers

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Speaker 1: died as well. But the jury came back and said

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Speaker 1: not guilty, that Adrian Gonzales should not be held criminally

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Speaker 1: liable for twenty nine counts of child endangerment ropes. The

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Speaker 1: police chief we mentioned I didn't see, Sorry, I don't

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Speaker 1: happen in front of me, but the police chief for

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Speaker 1: the Uvalde School District is supposed to be heading to trial. Well,

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Speaker 1: and I mean if you were his attorneys, when you

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Speaker 1: follow the same playbook.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, this is Chief Pte Arrendondo, and he was the

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Speaker 2: face of this in terms of just in the days

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Speaker 2: that followed, and he was obviously in charge of the

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Speaker 2: police response to the shooting. And I obviously the defense

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Speaker 2: attorneys who are representing Chief Arrendondo are clearly and were

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Speaker 2: watching this trial, and yeah, why wouldn't they go after

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Speaker 2: the same playbook. I was wondering if prosecutors even feel

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Speaker 2: confident about going forward with that case at this point,

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Speaker 2: and look it, being there on the scene and feeling

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Speaker 2: the emotion of the parents when it happened there in

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Speaker 2: Uvalde and knowing how frustrated, and that's not even the

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Speaker 2: right word, just to know that you weren't even allowed

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Speaker 2: to go into that building to save and protect your children,

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Speaker 2: that you weren't allowed to and parents were trying, and

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Speaker 2: that police officers they were screaming at them go inside.

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Speaker 2: It was horrific. And to think that now the officer

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Speaker 2: who was there, who didn't act, was found not guilty

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Speaker 2: to go after the police chief now seems surreal and

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Speaker 2: maybe even a waste of taxpayer dollars.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I get assume they brought these cases because

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Speaker 1: they think they have a case. There's plenty that will

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Speaker 1: argue that they are trying to hold somebody irresponsible for

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Speaker 1: what happened, and you want to like somebody, this is

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Speaker 1: somebody's fault. Yes, there were mistakes made this, but nineteen

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Speaker 1: babies are dead. You can't help. But it's not just

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Speaker 1: that a mass shooting took place. It was what happened afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Adrian Gonzalez heard one hundred plus shots while he was

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Speaker 1: standing outside after shot ten. Why didn't you go in

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Speaker 1: their kids in the school after shot thirty? After you

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Speaker 1: heard shot number sixty.

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Speaker 2: Still and that is what officers are trained to do.

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Speaker 1: You're standing here.

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Speaker 2: He had point blank and that's what other officers testified.

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Speaker 1: To He waited for a backup he made he didn't testify.

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Speaker 1: We should say that as well, but he did make

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Speaker 1: the argument he waited for cover and didn't go in. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I just legally you shouldn't be held criminally responsible. But man,

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Speaker 1: that's tough, and that's got to be tough for him

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Speaker 1: the rest of his life to deal with it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, he has to be with I actually had that thought.

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Speaker 2: Yes he was found not guilty, and yes he thanked

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Speaker 2: his family and his defense attorneys, he said just a

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Speaker 2: few words after the verdict was read, and he was

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Speaker 2: directly asked if he had any thing to say to

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Speaker 2: the parents of the children who were killed, and he said, no,

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Speaker 2: not at this time. But I was imagining, even though yes,

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Speaker 2: he is a free man, now, is he free, he

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Speaker 2: has to live in his own prison, in his own

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Speaker 2: kind of prison, because of what he knows about himself,

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Speaker 2: what he knows parents, most of those parents think of him.

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Speaker 2: That has to be a weight that is heavier than

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Speaker 2: any chain, than anything I can imagine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can he Is it possible he goes to bed

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Speaker 1: at night thinking I did the right thing that day.

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Speaker 1: It's tough to imagine. Look, we in our daily lives

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Speaker 1: things that go wrong and simple stuff. Man if I

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Speaker 1: had only done that differently, and you beat yourself up

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Speaker 1: about all kinds of things in a relationship, at a job,

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Speaker 1: at a daily assign whatever, this is one man, If

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Speaker 1: I had only done blank differently, twenty one people might

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Speaker 1: be alive. That is heavy, That is weighty, that is

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Speaker 1: and I do not envy the position that he is

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Speaker 1: in now. And your heart goes out to him in

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Speaker 1: some respect, just as a human being.

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Speaker 2: He panicked, you know, he panicked in the chaos. He

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Speaker 2: said he had tunnel vision, did he not? I believe

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Speaker 2: that was what he said. And yes, I do have compassion,

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Speaker 2: tremendous compassion for what he has to live with by

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Speaker 2: making a bad call, by letting fear perhaps guide him

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Speaker 2: instead of instead of I don't even want to say bravery,

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Speaker 2: because I know people have said, is it a crime

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Speaker 2: to be a coward? I hate to even put that

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Speaker 2: label on him. But he let fear cripple him. Fear

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Speaker 2: can motivate, you can cripple you, and he allowed it

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Speaker 2: to cripple him at that moment.

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Speaker 1: It cripples a lot of people, Yes it does. Shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have a badge and a gun if it's going to

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Speaker 1: cripple you when I need you, because I call nine

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Speaker 1: one because I'm in trouble, and there are people who

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Speaker 1: will come save my life that I pay for.

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Speaker 2: And risk their own lives to save your.

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Speaker 1: Life because they signed up for it and they're expecting

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Speaker 1: my call. So I'm gonna call them. But then they

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Speaker 1: don't show up, or they show up and don't do

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Speaker 1: anything that is not what the system is designed to do.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely correct, But we will or we have robes seeing

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Speaker 1: this before and it was the same result. Marjorie Douglas

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Speaker 1: High School down in Florida shooting down there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Parkland shooting. The only officer he stayed outside. He

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Speaker 2: went through a trial very much like this one, and

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Speaker 2: it ended very much like this one. That officer was acquitted.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was curious. We haven't discussed our reaction

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Speaker 2: to the verdict because we just haven't had this conversation.

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Speaker 2: But I was thinking, you probably are not surprised at

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Speaker 2: all because you have said this. It is. It is

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Speaker 2: almost impossible. If you look at all the cases where

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Speaker 2: police officers have been held accountable for the death of

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Speaker 2: someone while they were on the job, it's rare, to

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Speaker 2: say the very least.

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Speaker 1: Well, the law and certainly jurors often defer to police

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Speaker 1: officers in their actions or their reactions and split second

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Speaker 1: decision making, chaos, panic, danger, they do. And there are

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Speaker 1: legal protections for officers as well. I'm sure a lot

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Speaker 1: of officers will tell you. We can't be in a

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Speaker 1: position to where we think if an officer gets to

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Speaker 1: a scene, he can't be the first thing on his mind. Okay,

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Speaker 1: if I do this, I might get sued. If I

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Speaker 1: do this, I might get charged. You just can't.

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Speaker 2: You can't be second guessing every decision.

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Speaker 1: You're kidding, But so you have to give them the

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Speaker 1: freedom to act. Adrian Gonzalez had the freedom to act

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Speaker 1: like if he started just going through the windows and

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Speaker 1: looking through and firing shots and figure it anything like

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Speaker 1: the law would protect him if he thought he was

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Speaker 1: protecting those kids. And here we are. It's tough to

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Speaker 1: go through another trial. Do the parents want that? Now?

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Speaker 2: See? That's what I was thinking after this verdict of

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Speaker 2: not guilty and We saw the emotion in the courtroom

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Speaker 2: and as you pointed out, you know, a teacher had

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Speaker 2: to be escorted at or I believe the sister of

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Speaker 2: a teacher had to be escorted out. There was a

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Speaker 2: teacher on the stand who they said, you can't consider

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Speaker 2: what she just testified to because there was so much

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Speaker 2: emotion and this community. I mean, there were family members

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Speaker 2: as you might imagine, who traveled hours to Corpus Christi

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Speaker 2: because this trial took place outside of Uvalde, which is understandable,

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Speaker 2: so that they could get a fairer, more impartial jury

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Speaker 2: or an impartial jury. And so these family members were

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Speaker 2: driving hours to Corpus Christi to see this justice. And

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Speaker 2: are they really up for another trial?

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Speaker 1: We shall see. But folks want to hop on and

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Speaker 1: give you this update. A lot of you probably missed

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Speaker 1: the update overnight. But yes, in the case of the

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Speaker 1: Uvalde officer I was accused of failing to act and

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Speaker 1: possibly resulted in death at rob Elementary School in Uvalde

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, he has been acquitted found not

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Speaker 1: guilty of twenty nine counts of child endangerment. We always

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Speaker 1: appreciate you spending some time with us. Keep an eye

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Speaker 1: on our feet today that is going to be a

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Speaker 1: number of significant updates. Oh my goodness, we can tell

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Speaker 1: already news is breaking from dobbles. But keep an eye

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Speaker 1: on our feet. Top right corner of your Apple podcast

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Speaker 1: appter a little button that says follow. Click that and

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Speaker 1: you can get our updates coming to you. But as always,

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Speaker 1: we appreciate you spending time with us. I'm TJ. Holmes

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Speaker 1: on behalf of my dear Amy roboc Will Trophy.

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Speaker 2: Also