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Speaker 1: If this is the meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underware listening podcast, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything.

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Speaker 2: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by first Light.

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Speaker 2: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting

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Speaker 2: for ELK. First Light has performance apparel to support every

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Speaker 2: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 2: dot com. F I R S T L I T

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Speaker 2: E dot com. Brian Burrow, Dude, this book makes me

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Speaker 2: so happy, like like I love reading it.

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Speaker 3: I'm not done with it, I'm halfway through it. I

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Speaker 3: love reading it.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm happy for you.

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Speaker 2: It is how you could have so much fun reading

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Speaker 2: about so many people getting shot.

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Speaker 4: Well, that was the primary challenge of the book. Sure

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Speaker 4: is how to convey one's enthusiasm for a pastime and

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Speaker 4: get people to keep reading a book that is, you know,

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Speaker 4: averages three or four dead people every page or so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's incredible.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the reading I do, I have to

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Speaker 2: read stuff just because I'm reading it for work research stuff. Right,

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Speaker 2: this is my this is me. Like when I want

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Speaker 2: to have fun, I work on reading your book.

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Speaker 3: It's not work. I just I love the book.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you, I as you can probably tell love

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Speaker 4: to doing it. Yeah, you know, I've kind of reached

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Speaker 4: the age I'm sixty three where I stop doing stuff

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Speaker 4: I don't want to do, OK, And I just want

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Speaker 4: to pursue projects that I really want to go disappear

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Speaker 4: into a room and learn about for five, six, seven years.

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Speaker 4: This we took seven and dude, I've been reading about

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Speaker 4: gunfighters since sixth grade, since I was eleven. This is

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Speaker 4: a book I'm wanted to do for like fifty years.

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Speaker 3: You're from Texas, A Yeah, and as you point out,

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Speaker 3: we'll get into it. Texas is like.

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Speaker 2: Just kind of is a force that pushes gun fighters

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Speaker 2: out into the American West.

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Speaker 4: It's probably the most important of the number sources. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think that's fair to say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you got a bunch of you got a bunch

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Speaker 2: of books. I'm gonna tell people about your books because

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Speaker 2: they might recognize some of them.

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Speaker 3: Barbarians at the Gate.

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Speaker 2: You have eight books, four New York Times bestsellers, Public Enemies,

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Speaker 2: America's greatest crime wave, in the Birth of the FBI

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three to thirty four, The Big Rich, The

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Speaker 2: Rise and Fall of the greatest Texas oil families. Forget

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Speaker 2: the Alamo, the rise and fall of an American myth.

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Speaker 2: When you talk about that for a second, I haven't

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Speaker 2: read that one. And we're here now to discuss the gunfighters.

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Speaker 2: How Texas made the Wild West?

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Speaker 3: Can we touch on the Alimal? Yeah? What am I saying?

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Speaker 3: How Texas made the West wild? I don't have my

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Speaker 3: glasses on two ws.

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Speaker 4: I get it well.

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Speaker 3: Not only that it's Krin put it in italics? Which one?

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Speaker 3: You're as you as you age. As you age and you.

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Speaker 2: Start losing your ability to see letters up close, italics

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Speaker 2: is becomes your worst enemy.

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Speaker 4: Metallics as hell, Yeah, it becomes.

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Speaker 3: Your worst You just leave your glasses on at all times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could leave mine name, but then this would

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Speaker 2: be clear and you'd get blurry.

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Speaker 3: It's like a real time.

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Speaker 5: Drop them down.

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Speaker 3: Is that what you're doing right now?

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Speaker 6: I thought you just did that to look pretentious.

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Speaker 5: That's what happens when you get old.

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Speaker 2: Because no matter what, if you got a hoodie and

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Speaker 2: a hat on, I don't care what you do with

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Speaker 2: your glasses, you're not gonna look.

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Speaker 7: I just's if I put doctor in my there's a certain.

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Speaker 8: Feeling when someone looks at you over the top of

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Speaker 8: their glasses. It makes me think that I did something

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Speaker 8: like get authoritative. Yeah, it's a power move.

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Speaker 3: I feel like, what's your take do you think? Do

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Speaker 3: you think uh see, you're from Texas.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you're not gonna give a straight answer,

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Speaker 2: because Texas get prickly about this subject. Do you think Crockett,

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Speaker 2: uh Crocketts they caught him alive? Or do you think

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Speaker 2: that Crockett got killed in action?

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Speaker 4: The versions that we have from people on the ground,

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Speaker 4: which are Mexican soldiers, but just let's face it, all

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Speaker 4: the Americans died. There are multiple versions that say that

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Speaker 4: he was captured and executed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you believe that.

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Speaker 4: I don't have any reason not to. I mean, it's

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Speaker 4: the only non fiction based source for Crockett information. Most

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Speaker 4: of kind of the famous stuff about him swinging Old

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Speaker 4: Betsy is kind of neo fiction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, no source. It's a good point you're saying,

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Speaker 3: the only.

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Speaker 2: Sources that could have described what happened at the end

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Speaker 2: of the battle would be Mexican soldiers, right, And there's

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Speaker 2: no source that ever came forward to say, oh no,

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Speaker 2: Crockett went down swinging his rifle.

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Speaker 4: The problem is, for years that just made sense, right.

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Speaker 4: We didn't really have much information until decades after the

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Speaker 4: battle about that some people might be captured. For the

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Speaker 4: longest time, it was just assumed that everybody died because

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Speaker 4: ultimately they died. The idea that some of them were

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Speaker 4: executed after being captured is in an idea that really

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Speaker 4: didn't start popping up till maybe fifty years after the battle.

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Speaker 4: Got it? Got it?

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Speaker 2: What's your primary argument in the book? Like I said,

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Speaker 2: I haven't read it. I'd like to, but why I

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Speaker 2: forget the Alamo?

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Speaker 4: Well, we at Texans have put are enormously proud of

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Speaker 4: our creation and should be. But you know, we wrote

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Speaker 4: the book with a sense that we love history. We

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Speaker 4: love the accurate stories of history. We don't believe that

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Speaker 4: the accurate stories of history make Texas any less special.

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Speaker 4: I think the argument that got people most irked was

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Speaker 4: when you go back and you read Steven F. Austin

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Speaker 4: and the Father of Texans memoirs. When you go back

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Speaker 4: and read a lot of people, do you realize that

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Speaker 4: the primary driver that split Texas from Mexico was the

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Speaker 4: Texans insistence that they could only live there if they

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Speaker 4: were to use slaves to bring in their cotton, because

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Speaker 4: that's why they came. That's the only way they knew

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Speaker 4: to raise cotton. And so for that first ten years,

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Speaker 4: from eighteen twenty to eighteen thirty, that was primarily what

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Speaker 4: they were arguing about. And there's ample evidence of that.

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Speaker 2: Got it, got it, And you dig into that in

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Speaker 2: the story. Oh yeah, yeah, uh, I got a bone

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Speaker 2: to pick with you about this one here.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't really get a thing you did. So everyone that

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Speaker 2: reviewed your book. I read a bunch of reviews of

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Speaker 2: your book, which are all good. I haven't found any

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Speaker 2: bad ones yet, and they're all like, all the reviewers

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Speaker 2: get a kick out of you saying that Hitcock was

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Speaker 2: a Titanic fraud. Okay, yes, the Hitcock was a fraud.

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Speaker 2: Hitcock wasn't a badass. He wasn't the ultimate gunfighter like

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Speaker 2: people think he might have been.

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Speaker 4: I argue that he was came into view as a

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Speaker 4: Titanic fraud.

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Speaker 2: No, you say he was a Titanic fraud. Well, and

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Speaker 2: then you go on to totally contradict yourself at that point,

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Speaker 2: he was a tight because you're blaming you're blaming Hitcock.

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Speaker 2: So Hitcock, just a refresh, you could tell the story.

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna give a little quick outline just so

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Speaker 2: you understand my gripe. Some journalists early on in Hitcock's life,

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Speaker 2: some journalists or some you know what passed for a

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Speaker 2: journalists in those days, interviews Hitcock or whatever and comes

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Speaker 2: out saying, oh, Hitcock killed one hundred men with his pistol,

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Speaker 2: and all Hitcock Hitcock doesn't contradict him. Hitcock's like he

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Speaker 2: wants to say that that's fine, and then goes on

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Speaker 2: to shoot all kinds of people. And you're saying he's

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Speaker 2: a Titanic fraud.

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Speaker 3: But it's not his fault. He couldn't control what the

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Speaker 3: guy said.

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Speaker 4: And we don't. I don't argue that it was his fault.

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Speaker 4: No reason, The same reason, the same reason with Johnny Ringo.

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Speaker 4: Johnny Ringo is a Titanic fraud and he never once

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Speaker 4: made a claim. They were all made years after his death.

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Speaker 4: With Hiccock, yeah he was the only reason you know

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Speaker 4: his name is that article by oh yeah, you never

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Speaker 4: know of him otherwise.

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Speaker 3: But you start the book with him shooting a guy.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but that does not make you some notable gunfighter,

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Speaker 4: that you shot one guy. What makes you the nation's

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Speaker 4: first gunfighter is to claim that you shot a hundred

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Speaker 4: guys when the actual number at that point would appear

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Speaker 4: to be like two.

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Speaker 5: That's how you build a reputation, I know.

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Speaker 2: But I just think Titanic fraud. I was thinking when

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Speaker 2: I said that when I read that in the reviews,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to start out negative here. When I

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Speaker 2: read that in the reviews, I thought, Okay, he's going

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Speaker 2: to dismantle Hickcock. But then I'm reading the book and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, the one hundred that notwithstanding that hundred thing,

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Speaker 2: he still was kind of a remarkable gunfighter.

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Speaker 4: I yes, but when he first became known, he became

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Speaker 4: known for what I think was a fraud fact that

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Speaker 4: he killed over one hundred people. I think it's notable

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Speaker 4: about him is that after that you can argue, as

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Speaker 4: I think you're trying to, that he grew, that he

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Speaker 4: grew into his legend, that he became a notable lawman

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Speaker 4: and became a notable gunfighter. But I'm sorry, when it

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Speaker 4: was first written in eighteen sixty seven, he wasn't okay.

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Speaker 2: Like I say, you win, but lay out the premise

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Speaker 2: of the book, like how you lay it out in

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Speaker 2: the beginning. You know, you kind of fine, first, you

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Speaker 2: kind of go like what is a gunfighter? Like what

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Speaker 2: is and you kind of you kick around different people

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Speaker 2: that carried pistols and different Western icons, and then you

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Speaker 2: settle at when I say a gunfighter, here's what I mean.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the first thing to do is to define our terms.

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Speaker 4: A gunfighter is generally acknowledged as someone who was involved

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Speaker 4: in exchanges of gunfire among civilians on the on the

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Speaker 4: old Western frontier, so not involving soldiers military of any kind,

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Speaker 4: and not involving Native Americans generally speaking. What I set

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Speaker 4: out to do was I identified, you know what, what

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Speaker 4: do all these guys that have in common, from wide

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Speaker 4: Europe to Hiccock to Jesse James. The only thing they

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Speaker 4: really had in common is a they got famous shooting people,

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Speaker 4: mostly for shooting people. And it all happened during a

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Speaker 4: period from eighteen sixty five till I ended at nineteen

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Speaker 4: oh one. So I've grandly dubbed this the gunfighter Era.

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Speaker 4: And I set out to tell a narrative history of

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Speaker 4: those thirty six years.

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Speaker 2: And you set out explaining, uh, sort of asking this question,

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Speaker 2: why is it, why does it seemed to be Texans?

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Speaker 4: Well, that was one of the first things you notice

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Speaker 4: if you read, if you immerse yourself in this literature,

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Speaker 4: is that if you look at what I call the

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Speaker 4: Marquee gunfights, that is the famous ones, the ones that

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Speaker 4: made the newspapers in the history books, a startling thing

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Speaker 4: leaps out at you almost immediately, and that's the sheer

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Speaker 4: number of Texans who were involved in these gunfights. I

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Speaker 4: would argue someplay, if you totted them up, I would

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Speaker 4: say between fifty and seventy percent of these gun of

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Speaker 4: these famous gunfights from Kansas to Texas to New Mexico,

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Speaker 4: Wyoming and Arizona involved Texans. At first, that didn't make

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Speaker 4: a lot of sense because not to get all into

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Speaker 4: it here. But I only discovered late brogan to understood

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Speaker 4: how there was this Tayek, this Texas diaspora, this spread

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Speaker 4: of Texans across the frontier that came with the spread

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Speaker 4: of longhorn cattle. If you look at the great cattle ranches,

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Speaker 4: the great cattle herds from Montana all the way down

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Speaker 4: to Arizona, ninety percent of them came from one place.

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Speaker 4: They came from Texas, and they came with.

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Speaker 3: Texas, and they came with pistols.

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Speaker 4: They sure as I did. Look, Look, I would never

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Speaker 4: argue that Texans created the gunfighter archetype or certainly created

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Speaker 4: gun gun violence in the West. They didn't. I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: want to overstate this. But what I'm saying is that

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Speaker 4: Texans had an impact on what we remember that's far

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Speaker 4: more or significant than we remember.

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Speaker 2: And you get into it in the beginning of the book.

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Speaker 2: You get into this, this this idea of that people

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Speaker 2: wanted to would defend their honor at all costs, and

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Speaker 2: you kind of talk about how they had these that

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Speaker 2: at that time it seemed that people had like somewhat

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Speaker 2: fragile egos.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's one way to see, that's one way to see.

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Speaker 3: That's not your word when you look.

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Speaker 4: At their behavior, that's the way it seems to us.

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Speaker 4: I think another way to interpret this is that during

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Speaker 4: the nineteenth century, at the eighteen hundreds, at a time

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Speaker 4: where we didn't have a whole lot of university degrees

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Speaker 4: or financial statements for ordinary men and women to brag about,

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Speaker 4: what emerged, especially in the South, that I'm arguing gravitated

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Speaker 4: out onto the Western Frontier was a male honor system

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Speaker 4: that well, it's a little it's almost hard to explain it,

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Speaker 4: but it's a little like pornography. I know it when

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Speaker 4: I see it. You know, when I have attacked your honor,

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Speaker 4: maybe I call you ugly, or your wife or your dog.

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Speaker 4: The thing about the Southern honor system, or really you

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Speaker 4: could argue the American honor system in those days, is

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Speaker 4: if you felt your honor had been impugned, if you've

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Speaker 4: been insulted, you had an opportunity and in many cases,

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Speaker 4: an obligation to respond with violence, even deadly violence. You

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Speaker 4: know that famously. I mean, I argue in the book

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Speaker 4: that the genesis of all this gunfighter behavior was duels.

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Speaker 4: Duels back in the Old South. That's really the only

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Speaker 4: place you can point to American men shooting each other

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Speaker 4: in kind of structured contest with guns before this.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's the thing that people talk about, how

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Speaker 2: caustic American politics has become.

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Speaker 3: Artstick to myself, not like then, dude, I mean like people,

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Speaker 3: you'd have.

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Speaker 2: An election, the election would be resolved, and it'd be

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Speaker 2: like it'd be like Biden, It'd be like Biden and

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Speaker 2: Trump would the election to be over Trump's like, I

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Speaker 2: don't you know, there's a fishiness to the results.

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Speaker 3: They'd be like, okay, let's have a duel and well

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Speaker 3: at noon.

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Speaker 2: Whoever, that'll wind up being like that, that'll wind up

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Speaker 2: being the final say.

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Speaker 3: The voters, in fact, have not spoken.

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Speaker 4: In the years leading up to the war, there were

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Speaker 4: fist fights and worse on the floor of Congress, as

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Speaker 4: well as any number of duels involving politicians. Andrew Jackson,

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Speaker 4: as you know, was involved in one, Abraham Lincoln almost

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Speaker 4: was until he talked his way out of it. And

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Speaker 4: our great Texas President Sam Houston was involved in one

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Speaker 4: which he aimed a little low and ended up shooting

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Speaker 4: the other gentleman in the crotch.

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Speaker 3: You know, what was that role you explained? It's not

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Speaker 3: ever heard of it before. What was that role in

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Speaker 3: a duel?

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Speaker 2: Like where you bring like your second Yeah, you bring

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Speaker 2: like an advocate?

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Speaker 3: Explain that? Can you explain that duel?

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Speaker 4: In the formal duel as laid out in rules written

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Speaker 4: by the Governor of South Carolina in eighteen thirty seven,

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Speaker 4: you were you know, it laid out exactly how this

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Speaker 4: is supposed to happen. Now, how often people went by

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Speaker 4: the former rules. I can't argue. But one of the

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Speaker 4: things you did see in many, if not most duels,

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Speaker 4: is the you would bring a buddy who was officially

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Speaker 4: called your second, and they would you know, kind of

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Speaker 4: argue for the reasons that they should have a duel

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Speaker 4: and should not have a duel, and you know, often

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Speaker 4: people went ahead with it. But the main place where

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Speaker 4: you where the duel where the second could come in

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Speaker 4: is if one of you broke the rules. Let's say

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Speaker 4: I fired at you and then fired again before anyone

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Speaker 4: was allowed, the second could take a shot at you.

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Speaker 4: And so there were all sorts of famous duels where

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Speaker 4: like joke, there are all sorts of duels where like

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Speaker 4: Joe and Jim would go out to an island in

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Speaker 4: the Mississippi, they would shoot at each other from from

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Speaker 4: ten paces and then miss. And the famous one of

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Speaker 4: these involved the Texas yer, old Jim Bowie, who was

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Speaker 4: a second, and both men were so angry and their

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Speaker 4: seconds were so angry they just a melee, you know,

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Speaker 4: broke out and they started shooting each other. And Bowie

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Speaker 4: had this, you know, six foot short sort of a

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Speaker 4: nice knife, the famous Bowie knife. So I almost don't

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Speaker 4: want to emphasize the formal rules of duels too much

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Speaker 4: because I think there were many more that were informal.

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Speaker 8: But the fact that there were formal rules speaks to

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Speaker 8: how prevalent it was and widely accepted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the funny thing you saw in the

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Speaker 4: South from the high water mark of duels, which is

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Speaker 4: say the seventeen nineties in the eighteen thirties, which I

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Speaker 4: know overlaps with some of your work, is a sense

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Speaker 4: that everybody said, you weren't supposed to do it. The

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Speaker 4: preachers want women's associations. Formerly, you weren't supposed to do it.

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Speaker 4: But everybody was like, wink, wink, this is the greatest

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Speaker 4: things that slice bread. I mean, nobody ever got no

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Speaker 4: sheriff ever walked out into the middle of a field

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Speaker 4: yelling stop, you're all under arrest.

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Speaker 2: And they'd have like towns that have a a formal

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Speaker 2: maybe not formal, but they would have a they would

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Speaker 2: have a what you well understood to be the dueling grounds.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Every southern statey not just some every single one.

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Speaker 4: I can't you know. Saint Louis had an island out

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Speaker 4: I think they call it Bloody Island. Out in the Mississippi. Uh.

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Speaker 4: The famous one, the most famous one was you could

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Speaker 4: still go there in the Oaks and underneath the Oaks

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Speaker 4: and City Park in New Orleans at the end of

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Speaker 4: vestipl In made. And you know, there were so many

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Speaker 4: duels there during the eighteen thirties, you practically have to

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Speaker 4: make an appointment. There were some Sundays right right, because

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Speaker 4: there would be ten or twelve duels on a single afternoon.

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Speaker 4: Now the big asterisk there is in New Orleans. Duels

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Speaker 4: were almost always done with swords rather than guns, and

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Speaker 4: typically those duels ended when one man drew blood.

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Speaker 6: That's the French connection exactly.

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Speaker 3: He talked about too, a style of duel where you

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Speaker 3: take like you and me bind are.

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Speaker 2: Left hands, right, and then you get a knife. Dude,

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Speaker 2: that's a wicked google right there.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I'm saying? Like me and Randall,

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Speaker 3: we bouting on them.

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Speaker 2: Me and Randall clasp our hands left our class, our.

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Speaker 3: Left hands, and they bind them, tie them.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, what if you're a lefty, that's what.

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Speaker 2: That's my mold.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 8: Then you complain, Yeah, your second has got to make

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Speaker 8: a case for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you then you're like on the counter three,

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Speaker 2: and you each got a knife and your hands are

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Speaker 2: tied and on the counter three.

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Speaker 3: Go go stab you in this fight wherever fight.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a you know, a structured knife fight

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Speaker 4: from a distance of about two and a half feet.

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Speaker 4: The only problem with that is I, at least I

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Speaker 4: was unable to find a single one in the non

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Speaker 4: fiction annals of history. It remains popular in some movies.

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Speaker 4: If you remember the Long Riders nineteen eighty Walter Hill

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Speaker 4: movie of the James Gang, there was a beautiful one

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Speaker 4: involving Cole Younger and Sam Starr. The problem is we

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Speaker 4: just can't find any that you know, actually actually happened.

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Speaker 8: We run into that a lot with our audio projects.

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Speaker 8: There's just stories that you hear about the mountain men

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Speaker 8: did this, or the mountain men did that, and then

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Speaker 8: you spend months reading every mountain man account you can find,

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Speaker 8: and it just seems to be an invention of later authors.

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Speaker 4: Or I prefer to call it folklore, folk suggesting that

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Speaker 4: they're probably and I suspect this did this practice that

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Speaker 4: we're talking about now did not arise out of nowhere.

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Speaker 4: It came from something. But the thing is they didn't

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Speaker 4: have Harvard professors with them in Wyoming in eighteen thirty one,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of those guys didn't live to author memoirs.

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Speaker 4: So I don't doubt that there were incidents where men

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Speaker 4: tied their hands together and went after the wind knives.

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Speaker 4: I just think that a lot of documentation about that

385
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Speaker 4: stuff in the early especially in the earlier Frontier, is

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Speaker 4: pretty pre sparse.

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Speaker 3: I'm from Michigan.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that I could pull like if you

389
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Speaker 2: saw me running around? I keep thinking about switching to

390
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 2: those shirts you got on, but I feel like it'd

391
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Speaker 2: be like, uh, you know what I mean, might not

392
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Speaker 2: be cool if I switched to a Yavar being from Michigan.

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Speaker 3: What would you think.

394
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Speaker 4: I think you can pull it off?

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Speaker 3: Really?

396
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, now, I mean if you're I think it's

397
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Speaker 4: a geographic thing. I think it's harder to pull off

398
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Speaker 4: north of Texas, north of areas that don't have a

399
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Speaker 4: large Latino population. I think he's also age appropriate. I

400
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Speaker 4: don't see a ton of twenty five year olds or

401
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 4: youngsters your age wearing them. But once I got to sixty, I.

402
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Speaker 3: Was I'm fifty years old.

403
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Speaker 4: Okay, well, you're coming up on the age of my body.

404
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Speaker 3: Brad from Texas. He wears the same shirts.

405
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Speaker 4: They're the most comfortable thing you can wear.

406
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Speaker 3: God, I want to switch bad.

407
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Speaker 7: That's close to trying to pull off a cowboy hat.

408
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Speaker 3: I'm worried about. Yeah, it's what I'm worried about. I

409
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Speaker 3: want to buy five or six, get rid of all

410
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Speaker 3: my other shirts and just run. Why of ours?

411
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Speaker 4: I got ten or twelve? And in Texas we can

412
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Speaker 4: wear eleven months a year. And uh, they're just they're

413
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Speaker 4: just comfortable as I'll get as I'll get out.

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Speaker 3: He's looking at the writer in that Son of a Bitch.

415
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 4: No, see, I've also been I've also been told I

416
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 4: look like a waiter.

417
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Speaker 3: No, not to me, man, you look like a Texan

418
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Speaker 3: and a writer.

419
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Speaker 4: Well thank you.

420
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Speaker 3: Uh you mentioned James Gang.

421
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you are one of the I kind of laughed

422
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 2: out loud in your book where you like, I don't

423
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 2: want to put Jesse James in my Gunfighter book. I'm

424
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Speaker 2: only putting him here because you think he should be

425
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 2: in here, it's true, And then you go on to

426
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Speaker 2: explain at great length why he does not belong your book.

427
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Speaker 4: Jesse James killed people with guns, but we are talking

428
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Speaker 4: about the Old West. And Jesse James was most certainly

429
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 4: not a creature of the Old West. He was a

430
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 4: Midwestern bank and train robber. He he pulled Johnson, Minnesota

431
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 4: in Alabama.

432
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Speaker 3: Why do people think he's a Western guy?

433
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Speaker 4: Because the dime novels in the pulp fiction that came

434
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 4: after him, for some reason, began gravitating his story, which

435
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 4: is extensively in Missouri out west, because that's where people

436
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 4: expected bang bang and gunfighters and bank robbers and all that.

437
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you even explained in that chapter people didn't rob

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00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 2: banks in the.

439
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 4: West, well, not until the eighteen nineties. It was all

440
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 4: but unheard of because there's no money. There just wasn't

441
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 4: enough hard currency. The one place where you could rob

442
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 4: something making serious money was trains, and even that was

443
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 4: pretty rare.

444
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, the banks, like oh sorry, oh no, sorry.

445
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 8: I was just the other point that you made in

446
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 8: there that I appreciated was there's people shooting each other

447
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 8: in Eastern cities all the time, and they're not Obviously

448
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 8: there is a higher rate of violence in the West

449
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 8: and in Texas, but you're like, no one's writing, you know,

450
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 8: folklore about somebody shooting someone on the streets of Brooklyn

451
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 8: or anything like that.

452
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 6: But there's this whole cultural.

453
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: Now there's a whole genre of music about that called

454
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 2: gangster rep Yeah.

455
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 8: Well, I mean it's a similar thing, like there's certain

456
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 8: parts of the country that you associate with violence, but

457
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 8: there's violence ever where it's only what the.

458
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 6: Culture chooses to focus fixate on. Right.

459
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 4: Well, that was one of the first things that I

460
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 4: had to confront is, Hey, let's face it, gunfighters do

461
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 4: not seem to be a hugely important aspect of our history.

462
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 4: There's no political or sociological impact in nothing that would

463
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 4: justify putting them in a history book, a textbook. So

464
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 4: I had to figure out why is it we're still

465
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 4: talking about them one hundred and fifty years And obviously

466
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 4: where I came down is that they are important culturally

467
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,719
Speaker 4: for America. We have decided that there is something in

468
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 4: these exploits that connects with us. There's a reason that

469
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 4: gunfighters became an aspect of twentieth century, especially entertainments of

470
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 4: movies and literature. And I don't spend a lot of

471
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 4: time trying to get all academic about why they were important,

472
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 4: but I do think I had to address at least

473
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 4: address why you know this the only gunfighters that anybody

474
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 4: remembers rose in America on the frontier in that thirty

475
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 4: five year old in that thirty five year period, I.

476
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 7: Want to ask you a question that's like a twenty

477
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 7: first twentieth century, twenty first century gun control spin.

478
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 4: On that era.

479
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 7: Would that gunfighter era have occurred without the proliferation of

480
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 7: six shooters, like after the Civil War?

481
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 5: Like when that technology part.

482
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 3: Of the book?

483
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, I think you have to argue they were.

484
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 4: I mean, what made the gunfighter era possible? What made

485
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 4: all these famous shootings possible was the invention of the

486
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 4: revolver by Samuel Colt in the lighteen eighteen thirties and

487
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: its adoption and thus popularization by the Texas Rangers in

488
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 4: the eighteen forties. When you talk about the phenomenon that

489
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 4: we call today open car Carrie, it was not unknown

490
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 4: before the revolver. You can find memoirists who toured southern

491
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 4: areas and rural areas that are like, gosh, I saw

492
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 4: a guy carrying a gun this in Arkansas in eighteen

493
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 4: thirty seven. But after the war, especially after in eighteen

494
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 4: sixty five and eighteen sixty six, the federal government auctioned

495
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 4: off or gave away something the order of one point

496
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 4: three million dollars one point three million side arms. I

497
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 4: think you have to acknowledge that open carry became not

498
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 4: only prevalent but accepted. There you can find memoirs writing

499
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 4: about at the time who were like, good lord, can

500
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 4: you believe men are wearing guns like they used to

501
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 4: wear bow ties? And I think I think that these

502
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 4: gun fights, what you needed for them to happen were revolvers,

503
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 4: something where you can fire a lot so cause a

504
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 4: lot of mayhem. You don't really have gun fights pre war.

505
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 4: Back in the day with a primary handgun was a

506
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 4: single shot.

507
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: Short gun fight.

508
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the typical duel be bang bang, and

509
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 4: then everybody takes ten minutes to reload.

510
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 8: Yeap oh, And there's a very similar phenomena. I mean,

511
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 8: I'm not just vaguely. The Tommy gun arrived too late

512
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 8: on the scene in World War One to really be

513
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 8: issued to troops, so they sold all of those after

514
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 8: the war, like in hardware stores, right, And that's the

515
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 8: rise of okid of the nineteen twenties gangster.

516
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 4: I would I wrote an entire book that that that argued,

517
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 4: in part I knew.

518
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 6: You could speak that, which is why I brought up

519
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 6: my face.

520
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 4: Either spread of surplus Tommy guns in the twenties did

521
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 4: as much to create al caponent as anything else, because

522
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 4: suddenly if you could shoot hundred rounds a minute or

523
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 4: whatever it was some sheriff named Goober out in Iowa

524
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 4: was just you know, he he's not gonna be able

525
00:26:58,400 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 4: to face off with you.

526
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, uh, you know, I want to I

527
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: want to talk about the Colt Pistol, but I want

528
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: to back up to Mint, to the man that doesn't

529
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: belong in the book, but he's in there.

530
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

531
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you explain to folks like who was Jesse James? Like, like,

532
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: what did that world that he came out of?

533
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 4: Right?

534
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 3: Because that winds up having a little bit of an

535
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 3: impact on a number of these people, it does.

536
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's some of the goings ons in the Civil

537
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: War shaped a lot of these individuals.

538
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 4: One of the things that a number of the early gunfighters,

539
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 4: those who kind of began their careers in the late

540
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 4: eighteen sixties have in common is a number of them,

541
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 4: from Jesse James to John Wesley Harden of Texas to

542
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 4: Doc Holliday, were inveterate and angry Southerners. Jesse James was

543
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 4: the biggest one in terms of his fame. He was

544
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 4: a teenage boy during the Civil War whose brother Frank

545
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 4: was out there fighting at a time that the warfare

546
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 4: in Missouri was much less about the movement of armies

547
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 4: and much more about rural gorillas descending on farms and

548
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 4: burning up farms and such. Frank was into that Jesse

549
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 4: joined him. Jesse was shot twice in the chest during

550
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 4: the war, survived, and then goes utterly black for four years.

551
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 4: We don't know much about him, but we do know

552
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 4: that many of the Confederate guerrillas known as bushwhackers did

553
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 4: begin to engage in crime in Missouri in the late

554
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 4: eighteen sixties. And the first time we see Jesse and Frank,

555
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 4: the first time they walk out onto the pages of history,

556
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 4: is eighteen sixty nine and Gallatin, Missouri, far north. They

557
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 4: walk into a bank ostensively to rob it, but you

558
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 4: learn immediately that robbery was just second. They go up

559
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 4: to a gentleman who's sitting at a desk, and they

560
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 4: call him by a name, let's say Burluson, whatever it was,

561
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 4: and shoot him in the hat. They thought he had

562
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 4: this guy had killed one of their commanding officers. They

563
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 4: were there to exactly they were wrong and they killed

564
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 4: the wrong guy. That led to Jesse and Frank forming

565
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 4: a group that two years later began robbing banks and

566
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 4: continued very successful for ten years. Jesse James in his

567
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 4: career as a bank and train robber. What's important, what's

568
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 4: important for people to understand is what a unicorn he was.

569
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 4: There was nobody like this in the country that was

570
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 4: doing this, that was doing it this much or making

571
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 4: this money. And when you look at the entirety of

572
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 4: this period from eighteen sixty five and nineteen oh one,

573
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 4: there's nobody else that comes closed. I mean, if you

574
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 4: wanted to say who is the second most successful outlaw

575
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 4: of the Old West, if you put Jesse James at

576
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 4: the top, you'd probably say Butch cast was a distant second.

577
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 4: But Jesse James was the first household name criminal in

578
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 4: American history. But he was not, as you point out,

579
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 4: he was not a gunfighter.

580
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 3: You say he was just a murderer.

581
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 4: Well, he never actually even did anything that we can

582
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 4: figure out west of the Missouri Kansas line, which is

583
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 4: kind of the beginning of the Old West. When you

584
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 4: look at the people that Jesse James shot five or six.

585
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 4: Everyone was essentially executed with a shot to the head

586
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 4: because he did something that pissed Jesse off during a robbery.

587
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it wasn't like going out into the street and

588
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 3: being like draw.

589
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: It was he was a shoot.

590
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: He to shoot people.

591
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 4: The only time we knew Jesse James was in a

592
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 4: legitimately contentious gunfight situation. A detective out of Saint Louis

593
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 4: somehow stumbled upon him and one of his cousins on

594
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 4: a wooded road in Missouri in the eighteen seventies and

595
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 4: the detective came right up to him and there was

596
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 4: an exchange of gunfire. All three guys missed at a

597
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 4: distance of like fifteen feet. Like you can look at

598
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 4: some of these gunfighters. Hitcock, Ben Thompson, the Texan, Butch Cassidy,

599
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 4: who did an awful lot of practicing. Billy the Kid

600
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 4: practiced daily, as did Hitcock. There's not a single story

601
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 4: that I could find in any of the ten Jesse

602
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: James biographies I read that showed Jesse James ever practiced

603
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 4: with a gun, And I think it shows.

604
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 8: He's the kind of guy that would go out and

605
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 8: buy one box am when it would last ten hunting seasons.

606
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, like when I was a kid.

607
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: If you own a box amb, well yeah, it's good

608
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: for like twenty shells.

609
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: You're like, oh, that would be good for fifteen sixteen

610
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: deer every few years. I'll make sure it's my gun

611
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: still accurate.

612
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: Well.

613
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 4: The thing to remember about Jesse James is if he's

614
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 4: in a gunfight, he's failed. You know, he wants to

615
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 4: be able to walk into a bank point a gun,

616
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 4: maybe shoot a single shot into the ceiling, and get

617
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 4: out with the money before anybody notices him. So there's

618
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 4: a reason that he probably didn't hone his gun skills.

619
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: Who wrote The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward

620
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: Robert Ford?

621
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 3: It was.

622
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 4: He's a real good writer, Robert Hanson.

623
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: Was Hanson.

624
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 4: Someone type that didn't read the book.

625
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 3: The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford?

626
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 3: It was made Ron Ron Hanson, Ron Hanson. That's the

627
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: hell of a book. Are you? Are you much so?

628
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: So?

629
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 3: Robert Ford kills James. Robert Ford kills Jesse James. Yes,

630
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 3: Bob Ford kills Jesse James. Do you haven't read much

631
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: about the guy that then killed Bob Ford.

632
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 4: No, I put it in a footnote. I know that

633
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 4: he was killed by a guy that basically walked into

634
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 4: a bar he owned or was working in. Ten fifteen

635
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 4: years later.

636
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: Many different versions of what happened, it's agreed upon that

637
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 2: he shot him with a double barreled shotgun.

638
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 4: Well, you know, there is there is a there's a

639
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 4: fence around this book. There there are places that I

640
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 4: kind of go up to the fence and going okay,

641
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 4: that's probably a footnote. I'm not going to read through

642
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 4: three more books.

643
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: Hanson, Ron Hanson, that was his name, Ron Hanson.

644
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 6: Robert Hanson, the FBI All of a sudden.

645
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: The Ron Hanson's the author with author, So he writes

646
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: a novel. But it's like very informed.

647
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: Right in there he has his detail that the guy

648
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: kills Robert Ford has a coach gun, has a shotgun,

649
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: and he took a bunch of pipe, cut the pipe

650
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: and little teeny discs, and then took a hammer and

651
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: chisel and cut those diss into little shards, and then

652
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: took a funnel and funneled the shards down into the shotgun.

653
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: Because when you're reading about the guy that when you're

654
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: reading about the guy that killed Bob Ford. Everybody talks

655
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: about he was nearly cutting half. Some say cutting half

656
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 2: at the way, some say cutting half at the jaw,

657
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: but it's agreed upon that he was very shot up.

658
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: And I was wondering if you knew about that detail

659
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: that's true or not about filling that gun full of

660
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: pipe shavings, which is a dirty deed.

661
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 4: I don't, and I feel like a personal failure that

662
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 4: I can't address that for him.

663
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: But you know what, here's what, here's where you can

664
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: find cover for yourself. You argue that he shouldn't even

665
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: be in your book. So the last thing you need

666
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: to do is spend a whole bunch of time talking

667
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: about the guy that.

668
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 3: Was out and then the guy that killed him. It's

669
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 3: just getting very removed story.

670
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 4: At some point, you got to realize people probably are

671
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 4: not going to read the eight hundred page version of this,

672
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 4: So I do have to make I have to make a.

673
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: Lot of calls gunfighters speed versus accuracy. You know, that

674
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 2: was the thing that would debate.

675
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 4: It was typically journalists that would ask them, and we

676
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 4: don't have a ton of those interviews and exchanges, but

677
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 4: of those we do. Arp was weighed in on this,

678
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 4: as did Hitcock. Those men who lived long enough to

679
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 4: tell the story argued strongly in favor of accuracy. That

680
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 4: the dumb ass thing to do, and you see people

681
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 4: doing it repeatedly through the in this book, is to

682
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 4: draw and shoot from the hip. Just as as as

683
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 4: a question of accuracy, especially at distance, that's pretty questionable.

684
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 4: In the in the in the gunfight that opens the book,

685
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 4: in which while Bill Hiccock kills this fellow, Davis Tutt

686
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 4: at seventy five.

687
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 2: Yards the Titanic fraud, while Bill Hiccock kills a man

688
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: at seventy five yards because that's right.

689
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, Tut fired from the hit Hitcock famously

690
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 4: had a Navy colt. He thrust his left arm forward,

691
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 4: placed the barrel of the Navy colt across his forearm,

692
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 4: took what a millisecond longer than the other guy, and

693
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 4: shot him in the chest.

694
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you have it.

695
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,959
Speaker 4: I did the same thing an you know, any number

696
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 4: of people he shot in the OK Corral fight. You know,

697
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 4: I forget the guy's name. Shot made the mistake of

698
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 4: shooting from the.

699
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 2: Hip, yep, And he would draw a bead on him, Yes, Uh,

700
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: the Colt pistol. It didn't take I couldn't believe when

701
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: I was reading this that it wasn't immediately popular.

702
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: It was the Colt Revolver like people didn't want it.

703
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 4: No, the original was introduced in like I was say,

704
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 4: eighteen thirty seven, about a year after the Alma, and

705
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 4: it was large, and it was unwieldy, and it could

706
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 4: take five six minutes to to mean you practically had

707
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 4: to dismantle it to reload it. So while Colt was

708
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 4: able to unload some of these onto the federal government

709
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 4: and was used were told during the Florida's Seminole War

710
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 4: in the early eighteen forties, I want to say it

711
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 4: was not a big deal. In fact, by the time

712
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 4: a group of Texas Rangers stumbled upon some of these

713
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 4: pistols in eighteen forty four, seven years later, Colt had

714
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 4: gone out of business. And it was only when the

715
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 4: rangers began using them in firefights against the Comanche and

716
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 4: then later in the Mexican War that one of them,

717
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 4: one of the rangers who used it, a fellow named

718
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 4: Samuel Walker, went back east and said, Colt, this would

719
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 4: be a great gun if you could just lighten it

720
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 4: up and make the reload a little bit easier. And

721
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 4: working together, Walker and Colt created the gun that created

722
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 4: the gunfighter era. At the original six shoot of the

723
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:49,959
Speaker 4: Walker Colt.

724
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 3: And some of these dudes.

725
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: I always thought it was like from just a joke

726
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 2: from Westerns. But some of these dudes you talked about,

727
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: what actually they would wear two of them and they

728
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: would rig them for crossdraw. But that's real.

729
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 4: That was news to me.

730
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 3: I always thought that was like a just goofy.

731
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 8: When I read that detail, I had to figure how

732
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 8: that was faster me too. I mean, I think the

733
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 8: idea is like you swing it and you're aiming it

734
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 8: in one motion rather than drawing and just and bring

735
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 8: it up.

736
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 4: But well, let's define our terms real quick. Most people

737
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 4: who wore a gun or a single pistol low on

738
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 4: the right hip or low on their shooting hip. It

739
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 4: was somewhat rare to wear two guns. We know John

740
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 4: Harden Wesley Harden did it. We know Hiccock did it.

741
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 4: But now what we're talking about is the way Hiccock

742
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 4: and certain others Jim Courtney, the Marshallo fort Orth did

743
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 4: it as well. They wore the They wore their holsters

744
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 4: high on their hip, so practically, you know, with the holster,

745
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 4: the northern end of the holster in their stomach. And

746
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 4: their argument was that if you are pulling from low

747
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 4: on your hip, you've got to pull up and then point.

748
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 4: With a crossdraw, you pull out and and and the

749
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 4: barrel is already pointed the way it should go.

750
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 3: Yep.

751
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 4: So they would argue, and I am not a shooter,

752
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 4: and I've never crossed, and I've never used a crossdraw.

753
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 4: That it costs. The crossdraw worked because it required one

754
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 4: less motion.

755
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

756
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 6: I was doing this in bed the other night.

757
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 8: I put my I put my kindle down, and I

758
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 8: was reaching across to this side and.

759
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: Told your wife go stand across drawing at the ceiling.

760
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 4: I was going to say that was the excuse for

761
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 4: all those movements when your wife walked into the room.

762
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

763
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, everybody had been asleep for hours.

764
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 2: Uh.

765
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 6: The dogs.

766
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: The guy that kills Buster Scrugs and the very excellent

767
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: battle to Buster Scrugs, he's rigged high for crossdraw m

768
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: and Buster Scruggs I think carries on his hip.

769
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

770
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 2: You know, Uh, once these guys got it, they made

771
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: they kind of made the Rangers kind of made.

772
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 3: It famous in like a particular engagement, right right.

773
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 4: We caught on battle Waller Creek eighteen forty four, the

774
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 4: first time the ranger took these revolvers.

775
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 3: And they got them like through army surplus or something.

776
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 4: Right now, it was worse and it was I love

777
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 4: telling this story in Texas because the Rangers discovered these

778
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 4: pistols unused and left over by the Texas Navy. Like

779
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 4: don't you just love that Texas had a navy when

780
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 4: it was an individual country and then they disbanded it,

781
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 4: right they did, because guess what, they didn't need a

782
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 4: Texas Navy, know what was gonna invade from seaside, So

783
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 4: these guns were put I imagined in some type of

784
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 4: surplus warehouse where a young ranger named John Jack Hayes

785
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 4: found him and took him out. That day he had

786
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 4: a patrol with twenty three rangers and they ran into

787
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 4: a group of about one hundred best estimate, about one

788
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 4: hundred comanchee out in hill country northwest of San Antonio.

789
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 4: The Comanche withdrew into a wooded hilltop as they often do,

790
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 4: and chied it and yelled at the rangers, come on,

791
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 4: come on, let's fight. Well. For as long as the

792
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 4: Rangers had been out fighting Native Americans, the way you

793
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 4: charged was you took a single shot with your musket,

794
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 4: put it back, put it back in in the whatever

795
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 4: you call him, musket holtzer, and then you would take

796
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 4: a single shot with your flint, with your your single

797
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 4: shot pistol, and then you would go in fighting with

798
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 4: kniven sword. And this was the first time in history

799
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 4: where anybody charged a group of Comanche, uh with single

800
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 4: shot musket, put it away, and then and then six

801
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 4: shot revolver. The numbers that I recall as one ranger

802
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 4: died that day in something like twenty five Comanche. And

803
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 4: the takeaway quote years later from the Comanche chief who've

804
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 4: been present that day is I shall never I shall

805
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 4: never fight that Jackayes again, for he has a bullet

806
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 4: for every finger on his hand. That's good.

807
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 5: Uh.

808
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 3: Who's the Harden?

809
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: Is a guy you spend a lot of time talking about, right,

810
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: John is John West.

811
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 4: John Wesley Harden. I call him Wes Harden.

812
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, you spend a lot of time talking about him.

813
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: Like here is a kind of like a maniacal, indisputable

814
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 2: unstableble gun.

815
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 4: Yeah gun, Well, Wesley Harden, who was probably one of

816
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 4: the big five I would call him, and he's certainly

817
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 4: more well known in Texas than he is elsewhere. He's

818
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 4: the bridge from the violence that kind of took over

819
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 4: Texas in the decade after the war. He's the bridge

820
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 4: into the more the later area era of gunfighters that

821
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 4: we know it was hardened, you know, faced off with

822
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 4: with Hiccock and Abilene. One of the things that's that's

823
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 4: startling about John Lesley Harden, if you know nothing about him, is,

824
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 4: of course he is credited or with killing between twenty

825
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 4: six and forty two people by the time he was

826
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 4: twenty one, and most of it when he was eighteen.

827
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 4: He got into trouble at the age of fifteen when

828
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 4: he killed a black man who he had wrestled with

829
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 4: and they argued afterwards, and then was obliged to become

830
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 4: a fugitive when federal troops looked for him. And so

831
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 4: for the next how many years six years he kind

832
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 4: of wandered Texas and ultimately a little bit into Kansas.

833
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 4: And the wild thing about his career is we call

834
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 4: him my moniacle, but it's hard to point to a

835
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 4: heck of a heck of a lot of those shootings

836
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 4: that were played, they were almost always because he got

837
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 4: into some type of argument. You remember. The most famous one,

838
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 4: of course, was he shot another Texas cattleman through the

839
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 4: wall of his hotel room four in the morning in Abilene, Kansas.

840
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 4: And the story that got told about ten years later

841
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 4: is that he did it because the man was snoring.

842
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 4: And for about one hundred years, it's been cool to say, oh,

843
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 4: that's a bunch of bs. Come on, that's just Texans

844
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 4: making up this stuff. But I'm sorry, why else do

845
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 4: you shoot someone through a hotel room wall at four

846
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 4: in the morning you think he got into an argument

847
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 4: with him? I suspect snoring makes a lot of sense

848
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 4: to me.

849
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 2: I always think about opening their throat with a razor

850
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: blade when I'm sleeping next to a snorer, like dirt,

851
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: just like just like very delicate, so delicate.

852
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 3: He doesn't even wake up.

853
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 6: First in his throat you met like one of those

854
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 6: mouth people.

855
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 7: That's why I always make sure I'm sleeping in a

856
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 7: different ten.

857
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 4: I was about to say, can we can we rethink

858
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 4: that can't.

859
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 2: I would go up the dirt and I'd be like sleep, sleep,

860
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: and just like, take a blade and just open up

861
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: that artery in there.

862
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 4: He's so nice, I think he'd understand.

863
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: He wouldn't even be mad.

864
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 6: It's okay, I'm not mad.

865
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 3: It's just I can't handle it. I just can't handle

866
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 3: it anymore.

867
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 2: Uh. Card games man a lot a lot of bloodshed

868
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 2: and gun fighting over playing cards.

869
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 4: Which I didn't understand because on its face, it doesn't

870
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 4: make any sense. If we're playing five card draw. I

871
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 4: throw down my two aces and you throw down your

872
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 4: two kings. What's to argue about, right? I mean, I

873
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,439
Speaker 4: just never understood the fact that easily half of the

874
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 4: Marquee gunfights that I'm writing about here had something to

875
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 4: do with an argument over cards. And it wasn't until

876
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 4: I started reading about the history of gambling that I

877
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 4: realized that things changed in the Old West, or in

878
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 4: the years leading up to the Old West. In eighteen

879
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 4: forty three, or Riverboat Gambler published a book and then

880
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 4: went out on the lecture circuit to explain to Americans

881
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 4: how prevalent cheating was and how professional gamblers did it,

882
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 4: whether it was with hidden cards, they hidden their clothes,

883
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 4: sometimes entire decks. They would have pulleys and things that

884
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 4: they could pull up an ace from their foot. I

885
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 4: mean they had, they would have. They wore rings with

886
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 4: mirrors beneath them so that they could see every card

887
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 4: that they dealt. So what I argue in the book,

888
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 4: and I think I'm on pretty solid ground here, is

889
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 4: that what was different about the Old West, and what

890
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 4: explains much of this violence, is two things. Number One,

891
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 4: cheating was epidemic. More importantly, number two, now everybody knew it.

892
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 4: So just about every game of chance on the old Frontier,

893
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 4: I'm arguing people were almost as keen to to spot

894
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 4: whether other players were cheating as they were to win.

895
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 4: And of course, any type of accusation of cheating, which

896
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 4: let's face it comes up a lot when somebody loses

897
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 4: and has irked about it. Any accusation and certainly any

898
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 4: proof of cheating was about as acute an affront to

899
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 4: a man's honor as you could get. So there were

900
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 4: a lot of gunfights, some of them in the moment,

901
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 4: some of them you know, I'll meet you outside. Some

902
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 4: of them, you know, I'll see you a week later,

903
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 4: and I'm still pissed, and so I'm gonna shoot you.

904
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 4: I mean, gambling became one of the main sources of

905
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 4: dispute on the on the Old Frontier.

906
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 7: Was it also like a major source of income for

907
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 7: a lot of these guys, Like how are they paying

908
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 7: the bills?

909
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 4: Like gambling.

910
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:53,959
Speaker 5: I mean some were robbing.

911
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 4: People, obviously, but think of think of the jobs on

912
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 4: the old Frontier. I mean, school teacher, cowboy, a bar keep.

913
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 4: None of these people are getting rich. Those people are

914
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 4: getting rich by in larger absentee mine owners and such cattlemen.

915
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 4: And gambling filled two holes there, one in a landscape

916
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 4: that didn't have video games or internet or board games

917
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 4: or much of anything. Primarily it was entertainment, but also

918
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 4: it became kind of the omnipressent gigwork of the Frontier. Everybody,

919
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 4: if you're making eighty percent of what you should make,

920
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 4: I mean, you're gonna try to make extra And the

921
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 4: easiest way to do that on the Frontier was was gambling.

922
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 4: And so you see almost all the major gamblers, and

923
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 4: I think like almost all the men on the Frontier

924
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 4: moonlight as gamblers. I mean, the IRPs were quasi professional.

925
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 4: They would occasionally set up shop in a casino, and

926
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 4: then you had the professionals. Doc Holliday Luke short Ben Thompson,

927
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,879
Speaker 4: who became frankly more more famous as gunfighters fighting off

928
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 4: challengers as they were as gambler.

929
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 2: But these were guys that were that were like making

930
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: their living playing cards.

931
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 4: Yes, they would typically take Doc Holliday. He had come

932
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 4: west from Georgia because of his tuberculosis. Was thought dryer

933
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 4: air was good for him. Tried to be a dentist,

934
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 4: and he was a dentist, and he tried to open

935
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 4: a practice in Dallas. Unfortunately, tuberculosis, the cough and dentistry

936
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 4: don't exactly need so so you know, he starts, He

937
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 4: gets a buck board and uh a girlfriend slash lady

938
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 4: of the night named Big Nose Kate, and begins basically

939
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,479
Speaker 4: touring the west. And he would go from the Rio

940
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 4: Grande to Montana, stay as long as he felt that

941
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 4: there was still suckers to be flee store until he

942
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 4: irked someone so bad he needed to leave town. And

943
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 4: it was a thing. It was a type of job.

944
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 4: Gamblers actually talked of a circuit being up here in

945
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 4: the mining towns, maybe in the in the winter, being

946
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 4: in the Kansas cowtowns, or in Texas itself in the summer.

947
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: And they would go to towns where there was a

948
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: lot of money flowing.

949
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 4: Well, it was easier to make money in those places

950
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 4: than in poor towns.

951
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, like like gold rush gold like they would

952
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: kind of follow mining mining booms and stuff like that.

953
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 4: Or you know the Kansas cowtowns with all the money

954
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,439
Speaker 4: coming in from Texas cowboys during the eighteen seventies. Any

955
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 4: place there was any type of boom, whether it was

956
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 4: around minerals or cattle, you would find prostitution gamblers because

957
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 4: that's where the money was.

958
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're gonna see my knowledge of your bookstarts to

959
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: fade pretty soon because I'm only halfway through, so you'll.

960
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 3: Have to help me.

961
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 4: It's all right, I'll just talk more.

962
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, please, but you lay out this deal that, like

963
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 2: tell the story of the Longhorns, because it just winds

964
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: up had a big part of the book is does

965
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 2: that there's a kind of a collapse or a lull

966
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 2: and cattle activity, right, and then there's a great spike

967
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: in cattle activity and that pushes out a lot of

968
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 2: that That pushes out a lot of gunfighters to the north.

969
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 4: Well, the eating of beef wasn't a huge thing in

970
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 4: the Antebellum years before before the war, and of the

971
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 4: beef cattle in the country were in South Texas and

972
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 4: the plains on those ranches, famously King Ranch south of

973
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 4: San Antonio. And it was during the war that trade

974
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 4: just stopped because you couldn't anymore get you couldn't drive

975
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 4: to New Orleans to market. There was no more money,

976
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 4: not enough money in Texas for people to be having

977
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 4: beef dinner. So essentially that trade frozen amber And so

978
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 4: you know, cattle did what cattle do for about five

979
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 4: years during the war. They made little cattle, and by

980
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 4: the time the war was over, there was something older

981
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 4: of five million cattle roaming free in South Texas.

982
00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 3: Unowned.

983
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 4: No, they were owned, oh were they just weren't. Barboar

984
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 4: wasn't a thing, so this was open range.

985
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,959
Speaker 2: So someone would have claimed ownership of them, whatever level

986
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 2: of control they had over brand.

987
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 3: I see.

988
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 4: So you would brand your cow and then allow them

989
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 4: to run free, and then when it was time to

990
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 4: go to market wherever they might be, you had to

991
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 4: go out and round and round them up.

992
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 3: I see. So during those years, just they weren't there

993
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 3: was nowhere to send them.

994
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 4: That's exactly.

995
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:23,399
Speaker 3: So your herd just built to build.

996
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,879
Speaker 4: What happened immediately after the war in eighteen sixty five

997
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 4: eighteen sixty six was Northerners wanted those They started to

998
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 4: open the first ever stockyards in Chicago, and they needed

999
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 4: those cows to get north. Unfortunately, there were no railroads

1000
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 4: in Texas to get them up there. If so fact,

1001
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 4: the cattle drives the nearest railroad railroads to Texas were

1002
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 4: in Kansas, Abilene, Wichton, ultimately Dodd City. And so the

1003
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 4: way that Texans and Texas longhorn cattle, and I've argued

1004
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 4: kind of this hyper violent ethos of Texas gunmen, the

1005
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 4: way that began to spread across the frontier was first

1006
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 4: up the Chisholm Trail to.

1007
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 2: Kansas, and they would come, they they would establish a

1008
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 2: point of sale, and then you'd have all these dudes

1009
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 2: a lot of money, real violent, tearing up the town.

1010
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 2: And you explain how the towns would sour on this right.

1011
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 4: There were five principal Kansas cattle town from eighteen sixty

1012
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 4: nine to eighteen seventy nine, beginning with Applene, then wichital

1013
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 4: Than Ellsworth, ultimately ending in Dodge City. And the Texas

1014
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 4: cowboys would drive large herds up there to each of

1015
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 4: each of these towns, they kind of handed it off

1016
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 4: being the place like a baton because the Texans were

1017
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 4: so violent and so aparisk, and the murder rates would

1018
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 4: go so sky high that each of the towns, you know,

1019
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 4: one after another, was like, Clint, that's it, We're done.

1020
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 4: You know, you know which stall you take these guys,

1021
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 4: Dodd City, you take them. And that's really where the

1022
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 4: first nationally famous gunfights occurred, the first ones that we

1023
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 4: still ride about today. We know gunfights happened before that,

1024
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 4: but this was now in the north. This was within

1025
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 4: range northern newspapers that suddenly we're like, wait, Texans are

1026
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 4: up here doing what? And you know, I argue in

1027
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 4: the book that you know this was this kind of

1028
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 4: made these Kansas cowtowns the Madison Square Garden of the

1029
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 4: gunfighter era. It's the first place you hear of so

1030
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,959
Speaker 4: many of these police people from wide are up on down.

1031
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 6: Oh.

1032
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: Brodie had a question about mercenaries.

1033
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 7: Oh well yeah, I mean it might even relate to

1034
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 7: like the cattle drives, like like in Western movies a

1035
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 7: lot you see where like someone hires the gang, right,

1036
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,399
Speaker 7: Like was that a thing where these guys will get

1037
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 7: hired to do some kind of mercenary work for good

1038
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 7: or bad reasons.

1039
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 4: It happened, but I would argue it didn't happen as

1040
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 4: much as the movies, right suggests the most famous incident

1041
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 4: of that. Well, first, there's two things we're talking about here.

1042
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 4: Individual gunmen who were hired as assassins is what would

1043
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 4: not call hitmen. Right, that was a thing. You may

1044
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 4: dimly remember a pretty good Steve Men movie from the

1045
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 4: seventies called Tom Horn. Oh yeah, oh, I forget where

1046
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 4: I am.

1047
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 3: The last man legally hung in Wyoming.

1048
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 4: And Tom Horn was pretty clearly a hired killer, the

1049
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 4: most stockman.

1050
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 3: He's a stock, he's a stock detective.

1051
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 4: But I think most people, at least in Tom Horn's case,

1052
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 4: knew what he was doing. But then there were others

1053
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 4: like Deacon Jim Miller in Texan, who, when he was

1054
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 4: strung up, his last words were, let the record show

1055
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 4: I have killed fifty one men, now hiring an entire

1056
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 4: group of hired killers. And I can think of any

1057
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 4: number of movies where that happened. Yeah, it happened. The

1058
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 4: most famous one was in Wyoming Johnson during the Johnson

1059
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 4: County War in eighteen ninety two, in which the Wyoming

1060
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 4: Stockman's Association basically judged that Johnson County was allowing rustlers

1061
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 4: to run free and wouldn't convict them even when they

1062
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 4: were indicted, and so the the Wyoming Cattleman decided that

1063
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 4: they were going to invade Johnson came kill all the

1064
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 4: public officials, the newspaper editors, and the wrestlers. For this,

1065
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 4: they dispatched a man to wait for it, Texas. We're

1066
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 4: in Dallas. He hired and brought north twenty one hired

1067
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 4: Texas Gunman. You probably know the end of that story

1068
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 4: did not end well for the Texas Gunman.

1069
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 3: Can I tell you funny Tom Horn story?

1070
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 4: Please?

1071
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,919
Speaker 2: We used to hunt this dude's place named Tom Horn,

1072
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: and uh, he was a rancher and I would when

1073
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 2: I would go in and we'd shoot the breeze with him,

1074
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 2: and I always be like does he always be like

1075
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 2: does he know about Tom Horn? And one day if

1076
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: Tom not, kiddy, man, I'm talking to him, was like don't.

1077
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 2: We'd hunt rabbits in his place. So as a joke,

1078
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 2: one day we get him a carrot cake. Okay, we

1079
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 2: give a carrot cake and it's got like little rabbits

1080
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 2: and carrots on top of it, decorated, and we go on.

1081
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 2: We give him the carrot cake, and I'm trying to

1082
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: ascertain if he like is getting the joke, Like he

1083
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,439
Speaker 2: gave us rabbit hunting permissions, so here's a carrot cake.

1084
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 3: And I'm also I'm wondering, like does he know about

1085
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:01,879
Speaker 3: Tom Horn?

1086
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 2: And I'm looking through him and like right off of

1087
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 2: his right ear, I realized on his shelf as a

1088
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 2: book is Tom Horn's book. I'm like, oh good, he

1089
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 2: doesn't get the carrocake joke, but he does at least

1090
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 2: know that there's that there's another very famous Tom Horn

1091
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: h When you say it doesn't go well, explain what

1092
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 2: happened doesn't go well for the Texas Gunman.

1093
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,240
Speaker 4: The Texas Gunman, you know, they come in to shine

1094
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 4: and they start riding up to Johnson County, and at

1095
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 4: one point, when they're just on the edge of the county,

1096
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 4: a scout comes in and says, wait, wait, the King

1097
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,439
Speaker 4: of the Rustlers and a couple of other three bad

1098
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 4: guys are nearby on this ranch. Let's go over and

1099
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 4: get them first. Big argument breaks out. The Texans go

1100
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 4: over and get this guy. They surround this cabin. I

1101
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 4: think two of the bad guys get away and two

1102
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 4: of them are killed. One of them the so called

1103
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,720
Speaker 4: king of the Rustlers. At this time, and it speaks

1104
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 4: to the pervasiveness of Texans even in Wyoming was a

1105
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 4: Texan named Nate Champion, who you know, wrote in a

1106
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 4: journal as they were, you know, shooting into the cabin

1107
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 4: and then starting to burn the cabin down. He ultimately

1108
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 4: ran out into their pistols a lah butch cassidy and

1109
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 4: was killed. But that gave the locals time to raise

1110
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 4: super posse, which was about twice the size of the

1111
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 4: incoming invaders. The incoming invaders withdrew to a ranch called

1112
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 4: to the governor for help. He was in on it.

1113
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 4: The governor called to the White House, who called in

1114
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 4: the seventh Cavalry, who rescued the poor Texas invaders. About

1115
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 4: three days later they all went away to nice Wyoming

1116
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 4: prisons and were quietly allowed to go on their way.

1117
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 2: You know who, in reading and reading your book, you

1118
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: get into Billy the Kid, and throughout the book, oh

1119
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 2: at least a half I'm reading, I'm reading little bits

1120
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 2: and I'm like, this is kind of like from Young Guns.

1121
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 2: But the movie Young Guns. They make a real pole

1122
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 2: prix out of a ton of different shit. Yes, like,

1123
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 2: what are they even talking about that movie?

1124
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 4: Look, I would argue that as bad.

1125
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 3: He's familiar with this movie, the Young Guns.

1126
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 4: I've been the sequel, I've seen it twice.

1127
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 2: Now looks like talking about ship from all over the

1128
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: west Man.

1129
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 4: Well, that is kind of what Hollywood does. They take

1130
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 4: the best look Young Guns. He is not awful. There

1131
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 4: are worse, including too, It's much worse.

1132
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 3: I got Young Guns too. Well, the beginning was pretty sweet.

1133
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 4: That it's not think I'm not judging it on entertainment value.

1134
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 5: But actual there was some real history in there.

1135
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, Young Guns, like Don Jovie was not there?

1136
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 4: Really, No, God, you're crushing me, you know. I thought

1137
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 4: Young Guns contribution the original to Billy the Kid was

1138
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 4: that I don't think Billy the Kid was the most

1139
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 4: stable of and Emilio Estavid did a good job of

1140
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 4: jesting there were moments when he wasn't all there and

1141
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 4: I that been all there. That spoke to me in

1142
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 4: the movie, and the idea that that these was a

1143
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 4: small group of gunmen in this feud kind of being

1144
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 4: chased and dominated and overwhelmed by an from Lincoln Lincoln

1145
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 4: County War eighteen eighty eight, eighteen eighty one. That felt right,

1146
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 4: But I mean they started to lose me a little

1147
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 4: young Guns during the Great Payote Sequences.

1148
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, but they were kind of mixing

1149
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 3: up their landscapes too, right, I.

1150
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 4: Mean, like, remind me, it's been a few years.

1151
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 2: Well, so the link where was the Lincoln County War?

1152
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 3: Where did the Lincoln County War occur?

1153
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 4: It's all New Mexico. Billy the Kid is all in

1154
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 4: New Mexico.

1155
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 3: Okay, all right?

1156
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 2: So the so that was right because I thought they

1157
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 2: were borrowing stuff from the sheep.

1158
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 3: The fence Cutter War is up in Wyoming.

1159
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 4: Well, I can't. I can't speak to that, uh. I

1160
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 4: mean the thing about Billy the Kid is.

1161
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 2: Let's just talk about the real ability Kid. Tell the

1162
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 2: story of the real Billy the Kid, never mind Young Guns.

1163
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 4: Well, the problem with Billy the Kid, if you're an

1164
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 4: author or an historian is I can take the accepted

1165
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 4: facts of Billy the Kid, and I can write ten

1166
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 4: different books that would take that would the book one

1167
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 4: would be of him is the worst villain and murderer

1168
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 4: you've ever read about all the way to book number ten,

1169
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 4: which would be what a sweet misunderstood guy is, because

1170
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 4: the elements of this guy's career and his personality could

1171
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 4: back up almost anything. You know. From the kind of

1172
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 4: the dastardly point of view, he was a murderer and

1173
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 4: a cattle rustler. Okay, from the good point of view.

1174
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 4: Even then, people admired his daring, his bravery in.

1175
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 5: The news.

1176
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 4: The news the New Mexican newspapers at the time that

1177
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 4: he was at the peak of his regional fame for

1178
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 4: about a year, were split. Some of them said he

1179
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 4: was a demon spawned from hell. Others said, well, you know,

1180
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 4: you can understand why he's doing this. He's out numbered

1181
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 4: that type of thing. Billy the Kid was an orphan

1182
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 4: raised and kind of escaped from Silver City, a town

1183
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 4: down in southwest New Mexico. He went out into Arizona,

1184
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 4: which was remote and undeveloped, and came back having killed

1185
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 4: a man who picked on him because he was so small.

1186
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 4: He was seventeen at the time, and he was a

1187
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 4: small kid. And in the West, by the way, they're

1188
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 4: all small and they're all called the kid. Like I

1189
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 4: can give you fifteen guys named the kid Harry the Kid.

1190
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 2: I mean, just you know, for some somebody, these guys's

1191
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 2: book one hundred and twenty five pounds.

1192
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 4: Well, I think that American men were smaller back in

1193
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 4: those days. Billy the Kid was what five seven twenty five.

1194
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 3: Something, probably malnourished for a while while he was young.

1195
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 4: Maybe Billy the Kid's career is neatly cut into two parts.

1196
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 4: The first is as as you mentioned, the Lincoln County War,

1197
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 4: where he had gone to work for a cattleman who

1198
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 4: got into a big feud with the local members of power,

1199
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 4: and Billy the Kid was on the losing side and

1200
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 4: hounded out of that after two or three years in

1201
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 4: which he killed two or three people. After that he

1202
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 4: went he moved over up toward Las Vegas in Las Vegas,

1203
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 4: New Mexico, northeastern New Mexico, and became the fancy word

1204
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 4: for him. People will say he was an outlaw, outlaws

1205
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 4: from ount law. He was a cattle wrestler. That's all

1206
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 4: he did was beintell cattle and he rose to fame

1207
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 4: when New Mexican New Mexico cattleman came after him, and

1208
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 4: ultimately they much as the governor of Texas in the

1209
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 4: nineteen thirties, brought in Frank Hamer to chase down Bonnie

1210
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 4: and Clyde, the cattleman of eastern New Mexico, almost all

1211
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 4: of whom were originally Texans. Brought in a young fella

1212
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 4: named Pat Garrett, who was known. He was little known

1213
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 4: for anything beforehand. He'd basically been a bartender, but his

1214
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 4: one claim to fame seemed.

1215
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 3: To be Garrett it's heid hunting.

1216
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 6: Yep, he did.

1217
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, he was really tall. He

1218
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 4: was sick. At a time I think the average American

1219
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 4: male was like five eight five nine, he was six four.

1220
01:01:59,440 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 3: Wow.

1221
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 4: Pat Garrett was symbolic of the changes overgoing frontier law enforcement.

1222
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 4: You know, up until those years, in the early years

1223
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 4: after the Civil War, you could kill almost indiscriminately. It

1224
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 4: was pretty unusual for somebody to get to put away

1225
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 4: for murder. But in the eighteen seventies you start to

1226
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 4: see lawman like white Ear and Pat Garrett, who are

1227
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 4: notably more professional. You know, until then you had a

1228
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 4: lot of drunks, a lot of corruption, and after that

1229
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 4: less and Garrett, you know, famously tracked Billy down to

1230
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 4: the town where pretty much everybody knew he was hiding

1231
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 4: Fort Sumter, and went in one night with two other

1232
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 4: with his two deputies, both Texans, and they surveilled the town.

1233
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 4: There was nothing going on, so they knew the halfway.

1234
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 4: They knew the mayor, and they after midnight, circled around

1235
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 4: to his house and while the two deputies sat out

1236
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 4: in the yard, Pat Garrett went in through the open door,

1237
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 4: sat on his friend's bed and woke him up and

1238
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 4: started to ask him, you know, have you seen Billy?

1239
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 4: As he ever around? And at that moment, Billy the

1240
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 4: kid walked over from his mistress's house, which is about

1241
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 4: fifty yards away, came into the yard. He had a

1242
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 4: butcher knife in his hand and he was gonna cut

1243
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 4: a steak off a beef that was hanging from one

1244
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 4: of the eaves. When he saw the he saw the

1245
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 4: two mens. The mistress happened to be Pat Garrett's sister

1246
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 4: in law, but that's a that's another story. Well, Billy

1247
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 4: walks into the yard and sees these two strangers, and

1248
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 4: he's speaking only in Spanish. He demands, who are they?

1249
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 4: Who are they? In the Garrett's two deputies are so

1250
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 4: stunned They don't even know what to do. They certainly

1251
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 4: don't know that this agitated young guy is Billy the Kid.

1252
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 4: There's an open door there into the bedroom where Pat

1253
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 4: Garrett is sitting in the bed, and Billy has his

1254
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 4: two pistols out pointed at the deputies. He backs into

1255
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 4: the open door into the darkened bedroom where the mayor

1256
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 4: is laying there in bed and what oh yeah, and

1257
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 4: Gary's sitting on it. Garrett sees the shadowy figure come in.

1258
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 4: Billy sees the shadowy figure in the bed. Nobody knows

1259
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 4: who anybody is. And that's when the mayor, whose name

1260
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 4: is escaping me, basically says two words. He says, ls

1261
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 4: it's him and Garrett on only that fires two guns

1262
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 4: into the shadowy figure. He hears gurgle, gurgle, Fall walks

1263
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 4: out to clear the Gunsmolt walks back in and he

1264
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 4: realizes he has in fact killed Billy the Kid.

1265
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 3: Well he didn't though, he let him go. And that's

1266
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 3: young guns too.

1267
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 4: You don't understand there are entire towns, including the town

1268
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 4: of Haiko in Texas, that have built museums around Billy

1269
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 4: the Kid, who the Billy the Kid that actually lived

1270
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 4: into the nineteen thirties. We know our uncle.

1271
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 3: Jesse was, so you explain, I haven't gotten that far.

1272
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 3: In the book.

1273
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 2: You tell that story about caught in the beefsteak and

1274
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 2: getting shot by Pat Garrett.

1275
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 4: In the book chapter thirteen. God can't wait, it's a

1276
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 4: good chapter.

1277
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 3: That's how that happened.

1278
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 4: Am I giving? Am I giving too much away?

1279
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 3: Oh? Hell no, it's all such thing man.

1280
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 7: You you mentioned like Pat Garrett being more of like

1281
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 7: whatever kind of a straight lace loman.

1282
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 4: Or you know, like better than the one they had

1283
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 4: gone before him.

1284
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 7: But what like was it also a thing where like

1285
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 7: at any given time, some of these gunfighters would be

1286
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 7: on one side a lot, like you hear that a lot?

1287
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 3: You know?

1288
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 2: That's yeah, that's that's the thing that comes out is

1289
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 2: kind of weird, is like the fluidity. You even make

1290
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 2: jokes like a guy like does all these criminal acts

1291
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: like and of course his next job wasn't share.

1292
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because in many cases, communities didn't especially

1293
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 4: care about your moral character, and they also didn't have

1294
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 4: a ton of people willing to take the job. You know,

1295
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 4: there weren't a lot of people out I mean a

1296
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 4: lot of these places were pretty small, but what they

1297
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 4: were looking for. You saw this time and time again.

1298
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 4: They were looking for somebody with bravery and a reputation

1299
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 4: that might swayed criminals and in the in the end,

1300
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 4: who knew how to use a gun. So you absolutely

1301
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 4: saw people who had been wrestlers or criminals of some

1302
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 4: type who would go be a marshall for a season

1303
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 4: or two and then go back.

1304
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 2: You know, I've often argued that Shakespeare stole a lot

1305
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 2: of his stuff from the show Three's Company, but uh,

1306
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 2: there's a time problem there. I feel like Billy the Kid,

1307
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 2: they kind of stole stuff from your book a little

1308
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,919
Speaker 2: bit because even though that came first, because he even

1309
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 2: uses that flip move which you explained in great detail,

1310
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 2: the border flip.

1311
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 4: That's Harden, Harden does it twice.

1312
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 3: No, no end. Sorry, this is the last mention of

1313
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 3: Young Guns in Young Guns.

1314
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 4: Oh, you're right, he does it in the movie.

1315
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 2: Billy the Kid does that little, a little move where

1316
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 2: he's like going to hand a gun handled. Someone's like, hey,

1317
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 2: give me your pistol, and he goes to hand it to

1318
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: him and then flips it on him.

1319
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, we don't know that he ever did that in

1320
01:06:56,960 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 4: real but John Weissey Harden. Yeah, and but twice.

1321
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm done talking about young guns. It's it's

1322
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 2: it's dumb, it doesn't make any sense.

1323
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 3: It's a movie.

1324
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 2: But in your book you give name to that move

1325
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 2: and talk about it's called like the Border Agent or

1326
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 2: the border flip or something.

1327
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 4: I've heard it seen the border role, I think more

1328
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 4: more commonly it's called the road Agent's spin.

1329
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1330
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 2: And and uh, it's a thing. It was a real like.

1331
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 4: It was a thing. But one wonders if it was

1332
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 4: a thing people bragged about doing more than they actually did.

1333
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you explain it, well, you would it.

1334
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 4: There were two instances of it in Wes Harden's career,

1335
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 4: one where that he told of later and one that

1336
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 4: we know actually happened. Uh. The one he told is

1337
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 4: the classic one when Hickock went to disarm him at

1338
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 4: a bowling alley in Abilee because as we all know,

1339
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 4: bowling alley bowling was the sport of the old true

1340
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 4: you know, Uh, he was causing ruckus for over what

1341
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 4: we don't know. Hickock went in with his guns drawn,

1342
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 4: knowing full well who he was, and demanded his guns,

1343
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 4: and Harden turned around and realized Okay, I'm not gonna

1344
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 4: win this. The guy's already got his guns out, so

1345
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 4: he said, moving very slowly, pulled both his guns he

1346
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 4: wore to and handed them butt forward toward Hiccock. Hitcock

1347
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 4: then put his guns down and reached for Harden's, at

1348
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 4: which point Harden spins them and thus that that the

1349
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,680
Speaker 4: barrel is now is now pointing forward rather than the

1350
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 4: butt and he's got Hiccock, you know, right where he

1351
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 4: wants him, at which point you would think gunfight right. No,

1352
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 4: now it didn't happen. Harden actually shoot off his buddies

1353
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 4: and said nobody, nobody shoot shoots this man but me.

1354
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 4: And then a strange thing happened. You know, Wes Harden

1355
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 4: was seventeen at the time, oh man, Hickock was in

1356
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:48,679
Speaker 4: his thirties, and Hiccock, we don't have the exact words,

1357
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 4: but clearly said something like dude, chill, come on, let's

1358
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:55,559
Speaker 4: go have a lemonade, and basically talked him down a.

1359
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:56,639
Speaker 3: Little celtz around there.

1360
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 4: You get is Harden was so stunned you didn't really

1361
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 4: know how to do it.

1362
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:05,599
Speaker 3: Don't know what to do.

1363
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 4: Oh he could have just if you wanted to shoot

1364
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 4: while Bill Hiccock. He could have done it right there.

1365
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:13,480
Speaker 4: Oh and then he We also know that Harden successfully

1366
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,600
Speaker 4: used the spin. It's documented in the killing of a

1367
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 4: Texas State policeman later that same year.

1368
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 2: M hm hm.

1369
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 3: The border agents flip what was it called the.

1370
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 4: Border roll or the road agent's spin the border role.

1371
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 4: I've never been able to do either.

1372
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't experimented. No me either, journalists. Here's a

1373
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 3: part that that's so confused.

1374
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I accept that it's true, but I just

1375
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 2: can't picture the sort of thought process. If there's a

1376
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 2: guy in one of these towns and he gets in

1377
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 2: some skirmishes, he gets in some of these shootouts over

1378
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:59,600
Speaker 2: card games and whatnot, and their eyes getting cleared, like oh,

1379
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 2: it was so defense, or there's no witness, therefore we're

1380
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 2: gonna let you go, or it's unclear what happened, therefore

1381
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 2: we're gonna let you go. And then journalists want to

1382
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 2: come then talk to them and interview them about their disputes,

1383
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 2: like again and again and again, and they kind of

1384
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:28,480
Speaker 2: like craft these sort of through these articles, craft these personalities.

1385
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 2: And you talk about a unique aspect of a lot

1386
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 2: of these gunfights, is there are many eyewitnesses, so you

1387
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:40,680
Speaker 2: can really late in the later years, there's very detailed

1388
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 2: descriptions of he said this, he said this, he did that, Yeah,

1389
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 2: he did that. At times you find it there's there's

1390
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 2: contradicting details, but it's just like, can you address that

1391
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 2: a little bit that like, how are they sort of

1392
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 2: arguing that this was How are journalists arguing that this

1393
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 2: was like productive or serving the public good or whatever

1394
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 2: to kind of like profile and make heroes out of

1395
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 2: people that we would today recognize as just like flat

1396
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:10,719
Speaker 2: out murders.

1397
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 4: In large part, the press accounts don't rise them up

1398
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:19,760
Speaker 4: as heroic as unusual, yes, as in Hickock's thing, but

1399
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:22,720
Speaker 4: I don't You don't find a lot of moralistic commentary,

1400
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 4: except to the extent that they were saying this is bad,

1401
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 4: this is murder. Okay, I will say that to the

1402
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 4: extent that you do find just the fact that writing

1403
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:36,480
Speaker 4: about them at all glorifies them. It reflects a fascination

1404
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 4: with them. At the local level. We know that the

1405
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 4: first and greatest fans of gunfighters were the people who

1406
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 4: lived in their communities. They didn't have a lot else

1407
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 4: to talk about. Mark Twain till it's a great story

1408
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 4: of going out west, and there was a gunfighter forgetting

1409
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 4: his name at the moment, who was prevalent in the

1410
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 4: Civil War years, and he said, you know, as he

1411
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 4: rode out on on the stage coach for Nevada, it

1412
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:04,920
Speaker 4: was the only subject that anybody wanted to talk about

1413
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:07,840
Speaker 4: was this guy, and he killed somebody recently. There wasn't

1414
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 4: a lot of news out there, so gunfighters were news.

1415
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:14,559
Speaker 4: I think the worst that you could say about the

1416
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:19,879
Speaker 4: journalists at coverage is that it ended up being pretty gullible.

1417
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:23,599
Speaker 4: I'm thinking of I'm thinking of a character named while

1418
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 4: Bill Longley, who was arrested in eighteen seventy seven in

1419
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,360
Speaker 4: Texas and claimed to kill something on the order of

1420
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 4: forty two people. This was like a year or two

1421
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 4: after Harden had been arrested and in prison for a

1422
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 4: murder murdering a ranger. And so this guy Longley went

1423
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 4: to the gallows having claimed to kill something like forty

1424
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 4: two people, and he got written about by a lot

1425
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:47,720
Speaker 4: of journalists, and later in the twentieth century there were

1426
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 4: books and even a TV series about this guy. In

1427
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:53,600
Speaker 4: the in the nineteen fifties, which was kind of the

1428
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,759
Speaker 4: high water mark of what a fascination with these type people.

1429
01:12:57,080 --> 01:12:59,719
Speaker 4: And it wasn't until the nineteen nineties when they retired.

1430
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 4: Disc attorney in Central Texas set out to write a

1431
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:07,799
Speaker 4: new biography that he was unable to uh find evidence

1432
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:11,799
Speaker 4: of it maybe five or six of these forty two killings,

1433
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 4: all of whom were men shot in the back or

1434
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 4: in other words, murdered, rather than any type of contentious

1435
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 4: gunfighter situation. So there were a number of kind of

1436
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 4: bogus counterfeit gunfighters. Longley would be one. Johnny Ringo, who

1437
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 4: kind of is often seen as one of the major

1438
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 4: guns up against White orp A Tombstone, is often represented,

1439
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 4: you know, as one of the great gunfighters. In fact,

1440
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 4: he never fired a shot in anger.

1441
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't gotten there yet, but tell what happened?

1442
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 3: Okay Corral? And and and uh why is it still

1443
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:48,839
Speaker 3: so debated?

1444
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 4: Right?

1445
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 2: You know, like every night on some cable network or

1446
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:56,040
Speaker 2: is a thing about me and random are joking about this?

1447
01:13:56,240 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 2: You can spend your whole life just watching shows, yes,

1448
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 2: arguing about who did what?

1449
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 3: OK Corral, you.

1450
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 4: Know, OK Corral, which we should, of course, if we

1451
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 4: were going to get super accurate here, we need to

1452
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 4: be calling this the gunfight beside the OK Corral. It

1453
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 4: wasn't It wasn't in the corral. It was then a

1454
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:14,000
Speaker 4: vacant lot next to it. Well, I think most people

1455
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 4: probably understand if you've ever seen the movie Tombstone the

1456
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:19,640
Speaker 4: ninety three Kurt russell I, while it opens with a

1457
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 4: fictitious massacre, it's pretty darn close to accurate, as is

1458
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 4: the Kevin Costro Wider, although from a year before, which

1459
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:33,639
Speaker 4: puts me to sleep. Long story short, Wider was an

1460
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 4: occasional lawman there. His brother Virgil, who had come to town,

1461
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:40,360
Speaker 4: and his brother Morgan were actual lawmen who had come

1462
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 4: to town, and they came to Tombstone from various places

1463
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:46,599
Speaker 4: in the West to make money in a new boomtown

1464
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 4: where silver had been found.

1465
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:49,839
Speaker 3: They wanted to make money gambling.

1466
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 4: They wanted to make money anyway they could. They first

1467
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:55,800
Speaker 4: they tried it. They put their initial cout capital into

1468
01:14:55,840 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 4: buying vacant lots and into mining claims. When claims in

1469
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 4: vacant lots are not the greatest sources of immediate cash flow.

1470
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 4: They all actually had to find jobs, and so they

1471
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 4: you know, worked different things at different seasons, typically as lawmen,

1472
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:16,920
Speaker 4: assistant us Marshalls, saloon keepers and most commonly gamblers. They

1473
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 4: then came into conflict of what is now generally acknowledged

1474
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 4: to be the largest outlaw gang of the Old West,

1475
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 4: more than one hundred strong. Centered there in southeast Arizona,

1476
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:31,719
Speaker 4: it did most of its work of stealing cattle in Mexico.

1477
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:35,959
Speaker 4: Above the border, they were known as the Cowboys, typically

1478
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 4: cow hyphen boys, but below the border in Mexico they

1479
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 4: were known as the Tejanos because so many of them

1480
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 4: came from Texas. And over time the IRPs came into

1481
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:53,080
Speaker 4: conflict with this group. And the key thing that happened

1482
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,599
Speaker 4: we now know was Wider wanted to be Marshall. He'd

1483
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,679
Speaker 4: been a very successful lawman in Kansas and a somewhat

1484
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 4: success lawman in Missouri, but he felt like people in

1485
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 4: Arizona didn't really know him, so he needed some type

1486
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 4: of achievement. There was a there was the Cowboys, from

1487
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 4: time to time rob stages, and he thought everybody thought

1488
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 4: they knew who was behind a big stage rogery, a

1489
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:24,719
Speaker 4: big stage robbery, and so Wyat approached the most prominent

1490
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:27,559
Speaker 4: of the cowboys, a guy named Ike Clinton, and said,

1491
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 4: if you'll set this guy up for me so that

1492
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 4: I can arrest him. I'll give you the three hundred

1493
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:35,759
Speaker 4: I think I think it was three thousand dollar reward.

1494
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:40,160
Speaker 4: H and Ike agreed to do this. Unfortunately, the guy

1495
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:44,520
Speaker 4: that they sought was killed in the interim. And afterwards

1496
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:47,519
Speaker 4: I realized he was in serious of trouble because if

1497
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 4: whyerp or any of his buddies spread the word that

1498
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 4: Ike Clinton was going to rat out and set up

1499
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 4: one of his criminal brethren, Ike Clinton's life span could

1500
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:00,839
Speaker 4: be measured in days and so that that's what happened

1501
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 4: that windy day in October, Ike and two several other

1502
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:08,200
Speaker 4: cowboys came into town. They accused Wyatt and his brother

1503
01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 4: Virgil and Doc Holliday, their friend, of starting to spread

1504
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 4: this story, which was a true story, that he was

1505
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 4: a rat, And it went on most of the night

1506
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,880
Speaker 4: and it didn't get bad it meaning Ike's behavior didn't

1507
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:24,760
Speaker 4: get bad until after dawn that next morning, by which

1508
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 4: point all the IRPs and other and everybody else involved

1509
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:30,559
Speaker 4: had been up all night playing cards. They were all

1510
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:34,679
Speaker 4: out going having naps that morning when I Clanton started

1511
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 4: going saloon to saloon casino casino there in Tombstone, saying

1512
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,120
Speaker 4: that the next up that any of the cowboys saw

1513
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:43,840
Speaker 4: in the street was going to be killed. And he

1514
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 4: didn't announce why, he just said, you know, they were

1515
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 4: skunks and bad guys and such, and so what happened

1516
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 4: was everybody then rushes to each of the irp's homes

1517
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 4: and wakes him up by noon and like, you got

1518
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:00,240
Speaker 4: to stop this. Something bad is going to happen. And Joel,

1519
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:02,599
Speaker 4: who was the marshal at the point, realized he had

1520
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:05,840
Speaker 4: to go disarm them. Uh, there was a as in

1521
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:08,919
Speaker 4: Dodge City as in Abelee, there was some municipal orients

1522
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 4: against open carry, and Ike and the cowboys were seen

1523
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:17,559
Speaker 4: carrying their guns, and so Virgil and Morgan and why

1524
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:20,000
Speaker 4: it all all woke. And there's this wonderful moment where

1525
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 4: they're standing at the edge of a saloon about to

1526
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:25,799
Speaker 4: go down to this vacant lot to disarm the cowboys,

1527
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:28,360
Speaker 4: when out of nowhere, Doc Holliday walks up and says,

1528
01:18:28,360 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 4: what's going on. He'd been asleep, he didn't know of

1529
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,560
Speaker 4: any of this, And White said, we're getting ready for

1530
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 4: a fight. They used the word fight to call a

1531
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:37,479
Speaker 4: for gunfight, as if by then there was no other

1532
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:39,559
Speaker 4: other kind. If I said, I'm going to fight you.

1533
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 4: It was understood it would be guns. And Doc Holliday,

1534
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 4: who kind of worshiped, whyet that part of the movies

1535
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 4: is pretty close to accurate, I'd say. He says, well,

1536
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,240
Speaker 4: I'm offended that you it was a Southern I'm gonna

1537
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 4: put on my face Southern accent. Well, I'm offended. I'm offended.

1538
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:56,439
Speaker 4: Why would you Why would you not be asking me

1539
01:18:56,479 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 4: to help out? And whites are well, it's going to

1540
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:01,960
Speaker 4: be a tough one. And Doc Holliday actually said, well,

1541
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:04,600
Speaker 4: those are the kind I like the most. And so

1542
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 4: the four of them actually like a Western. It's you know,

1543
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 4: we have eyewitness account begin walking shoulder to shoulder to shoulder,

1544
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:15,400
Speaker 4: four guys straight across down to this vacant lot where

1545
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 4: I Klanton and five of the other cowboys were waiting,

1546
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,639
Speaker 4: uh and had been overheard cursing and threatening the herbs.

1547
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:24,679
Speaker 4: Long story short, all four of them walk down there,

1548
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:27,040
Speaker 4: they come up. They come up to this vacant lot

1549
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 4: and it's small. It's the size of, you know, a

1550
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:35,439
Speaker 4: big living room. It's like seventeen feet across. There's six

1551
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:41,639
Speaker 4: cowboys attending two horses, and there's three rps and Doc Holliday.

1552
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 4: They come up four against six. All that happens, the

1553
01:19:45,320 --> 01:19:48,000
Speaker 4: only thing that happens that triggers it is Virgil or

1554
01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:50,400
Speaker 4: Seeds that they're they're carrying their guns and calls for

1555
01:19:50,479 --> 01:19:53,720
Speaker 4: them to disarm, to give up their guns. And the

1556
01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 4: cowboys that were that were present, it was almost like

1557
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 4: they didn't hear hear the worst. They just saw herps

1558
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 4: guns and they pulled and they drew. Three of the

1559
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:07,640
Speaker 4: cowboys did not. They backed off, hands up like we

1560
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 4: don't want to want any of this. So they immediately

1561
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 4: lose the numbers games. So suddenly you now have four

1562
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 4: ERPs and Holiday against three bad guys, and two of

1563
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:18,559
Speaker 4: the bad guys are holding horses which immediately start to

1564
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:23,519
Speaker 4: buck at the first the first gunshots. What we know

1565
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:26,680
Speaker 4: is it lasted about thirty seconds at the end of

1566
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 4: which and I could take you through the second my second. Unfortunately,

1567
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 4: this is what I get paid to do. All all

1568
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 4: three cowboys were dead or dying. Virgil had a bad

1569
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 4: uh had been shot in the in the calf of

1570
01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:43,560
Speaker 4: his right leg. Morgan had been shot badly through a

1571
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 4: bullet went in his right shoulder and went across his back.

1572
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 4: Doc had been grazed and White Rope was the only

1573
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:54,040
Speaker 4: one that was. Yeah. Well, but anyway you talked about

1574
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 4: the controversy, the controversy is not about Okay Corral. That

1575
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,920
Speaker 4: Buy and Large is considered by observers and by newspapers

1576
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 4: at the time have been a pretty fierce fight. I mean,

1577
01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 4: after all, the cowboys shot first, shooting, as we know

1578
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:11,760
Speaker 4: from the hip stupid. The controversy becomes after in the

1579
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 4: months that follow Phantom unidentified gun men badly wound Virgil

1580
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:22,559
Speaker 4: and kill Morgan, and it's then that something inside Wider

1581
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 4: breaks like he'd always been a pretty much buy the

1582
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 4: numbers lawmen, certainly by old West standards, but by then,

1583
01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 4: you know, after Morgan's death, Morgan died in his arms,

1584
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 4: shot in the back at a pool hall. It was

1585
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:39,879
Speaker 4: he was shooting. As he was shooting pool That Whyatt

1586
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:41,960
Speaker 4: said he was going to go get him, and he did.

1587
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:45,799
Speaker 4: He's that's what started what's classically called the Vendetta Ride.

1588
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:48,240
Speaker 4: It lasted well, I want to say, three or four days,

1589
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 4: in which why it put together a group of five

1590
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:54,439
Speaker 4: or six other writers and they went out and they

1591
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:59,799
Speaker 4: killed three or four of the cowboys, including their acknowledge

1592
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 4: Lee or curdly Bill Brochs, at which point they they

1593
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:07,320
Speaker 4: they washed their hands of tombstone and they they wrote off,

1594
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 4: never to return. But you know, they left a big

1595
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 4: controversy and an American legend in their ways.

1596
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:14,800
Speaker 3: So how's your book end?

1597
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:17,840
Speaker 4: Literally, how does it end?

1598
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? What happens in the end of the book?

1599
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:24,040
Speaker 4: Well, the last chapter of action has to be the

1600
01:22:24,120 --> 01:22:27,639
Speaker 4: last marquee outlaws of the Old West. That's Butch and Sundance.

1601
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 4: So the narrative of the book before an epilogue, the

1602
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 4: narrative of the book book begins with these guys saying

1603
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:38,880
Speaker 4: it's no good being an outlaw anymore. The lawmen are

1604
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 4: out there and the Pinkertons are everywhere, and so Butch

1605
01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 4: gets this idea that he's going to go to Argentina

1606
01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 4: and and and set up a cattle ranch. He does

1607
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 4: the famous thing.

1608
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:50,320
Speaker 2: That I've been a bunch of those little sites down there. Yeah,

1609
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:54,200
Speaker 2: every place claims to be some Butch Cassidy things great.

1610
01:22:54,840 --> 01:22:56,719
Speaker 4: He was down there for seven years until they finally

1611
01:22:56,720 --> 01:22:59,639
Speaker 4: got him. And then there's an epilogue that basically goes,

1612
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:03,120
Speaker 4: whatever happened to everybody? What their graves are like now?

1613
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:05,439
Speaker 4: I take I take readers on a little tour of

1614
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:08,920
Speaker 4: Dodge City and Tombstone and Lincoln, Uh, just to get

1615
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:11,679
Speaker 4: a sense what that what that world was like these days.

1616
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:13,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the last gun Fighters.

1617
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:16,240
Speaker 2: As I'm reading along, I'm going to find that a

1618
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:22,200
Speaker 2: case to be made that that Broiche Cassidy, according to

1619
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 2: your definition, is the last of the gunfighters.

1620
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:25,800
Speaker 3: Is that true?

1621
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:28,679
Speaker 4: I would say he's the last of the prominent ones. Look,

1622
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:33,240
Speaker 4: nobody would ever argue that gunfighting or criminality beget law,

1623
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:35,880
Speaker 4: you know, ended in the Old West in nineteen oh one.

1624
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 4: But I do think it's that moment that a lot

1625
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:42,599
Speaker 4: of those activities started moving from the headlines into history. Yeah,

1626
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:45,679
Speaker 4: so I thought, you know, you've got to end it somewhere,

1627
01:23:45,680 --> 01:23:47,920
Speaker 4: and that that felt that felt fair to me. The

1628
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 4: penultimate chapter, the one before that, would be a much

1629
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,640
Speaker 4: more deadly group of fellas the Dalton Gang in Oklahoma.

1630
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:58,880
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I know that name, but I'm excited to

1631
01:23:58,880 --> 01:23:59,840
Speaker 2: read about those guys.

1632
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:01,360
Speaker 4: It's a pretty good story.

1633
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:03,400
Speaker 3: I'm going to keep reading this book. E'ven though already

1634
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:03,800
Speaker 3: talked to you.

1635
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 4: Well, I was one of my best friends who is

1636
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:13,280
Speaker 4: kind of a pacifist guy, doesn't like guns. He said, well,

1637
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:16,040
Speaker 4: I'm going to try to read this, and he liked.

1638
01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:18,760
Speaker 4: My wife got exactly halfway through the book, about ten

1639
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 4: eleven chapters, he had to put it on.

1640
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:23,160
Speaker 3: He said, that's that problem, my wife, just too much killing.

1641
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:26,559
Speaker 4: And he went back. He went back afterwards to read it,

1642
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:29,840
Speaker 4: and he said not only did he like it, but

1643
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:33,400
Speaker 4: that he thought initially that the story of gunfighters would

1644
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 4: just be one of chaos, just people getting drunk and

1645
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:38,800
Speaker 4: shooting each other. And there's plenty of that, but he

1646
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:41,360
Speaker 4: said he found a real moral component, but real sense

1647
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:43,040
Speaker 4: of right and wrong by the time he get done.

1648
01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:45,840
Speaker 4: He got done. So I'll be deeply curious what you think.

1649
01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 3: Well, now, what was your wife's scrape with it?

1650
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 4: Well, my wife grew up on ranches in West Texas

1651
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:55,120
Speaker 4: and she shot her first gear when she was like twelve,

1652
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 4: and by fifteen or sixteen she'd had enough and it

1653
01:24:57,960 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 4: just still she's just queasy with killing.

1654
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:01,519
Speaker 3: Got it? Got it?

1655
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:02,640
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1656
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:06,639
Speaker 2: But you know, I don't know, man, It's like it's

1657
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 2: like it's not like a sociology book, but it's like

1658
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:13,280
Speaker 2: it just does a great job of explaining like a

1659
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:15,439
Speaker 2: period in history. I don't think it's like, I don't

1660
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:17,680
Speaker 2: think you have to read it because you want to

1661
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:21,160
Speaker 2: celebrate people dying. It's just like it's an explanation of

1662
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:23,639
Speaker 2: stuff that happened, right, and like why it happened, well,

1663
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:25,720
Speaker 2: that's certainly, and why it stopped happening.

1664
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:27,160
Speaker 4: Well, that certainly was my point of view. I didn't

1665
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:29,040
Speaker 4: write this because wow, it would be great to write

1666
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 4: about eleven hundred murders. I wrote about it because it

1667
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:33,960
Speaker 4: was fat. I wanted to understand why it happened in

1668
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,480
Speaker 4: this period of American history. But I can also acknowledge

1669
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:41,840
Speaker 4: and appreciate that there are people to whom blooding, gore

1670
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 4: and killing is just hard to read about.

1671
01:25:44,439 --> 01:25:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, you know that whole genre of

1672
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:50,760
Speaker 2: telling like doing documentaries whatever about like serial killers, right,

1673
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 2: you could try to dress that up as being that

1674
01:25:54,640 --> 01:26:02,160
Speaker 2: it's something other than just you know, somebody is reveling

1675
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:07,760
Speaker 2: in someone's sadistic behavior. Like there's not like it's not history.

1676
01:26:07,880 --> 01:26:10,000
Speaker 2: You know, when I watched those things. I hate watching

1677
01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:12,400
Speaker 2: the ones I have seen. It's like it's not even

1678
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:16,120
Speaker 2: masquerading as like history or sociology, like little serial killer

1679
01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:19,600
Speaker 2: series like that. They're kind of disgusting, I think. But

1680
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:23,360
Speaker 2: this is I mean, this is explaining. It explains like

1681
01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:26,960
Speaker 2: this really important part of American history, and we tend

1682
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:28,760
Speaker 2: to go like, Okay, the Civil War happened and then

1683
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:31,640
Speaker 2: the Civil War ended and that was it, right, But

1684
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 2: this is about well, what of those people, you know,

1685
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:39,679
Speaker 2: what of those habits, what of those technologies, and here's

1686
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:42,519
Speaker 2: sort of what they did. And then it touches base

1687
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 2: with perhaps you've heard of blank, blank and blank. You know,

1688
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:47,800
Speaker 2: you've probably heard a Billy of the Kid, You've heard

1689
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:50,960
Speaker 2: of Doc Holiday, and people have, but people don't know.

1690
01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 2: I'm saying, like people in general don't know what they

1691
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:56,080
Speaker 2: actually did and who they actually worked.

1692
01:26:56,240 --> 01:26:59,080
Speaker 4: Well, from a purely commercial point of view, if if

1693
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:01,640
Speaker 4: I could apologize for this, I thought that would be

1694
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 4: one of the appeals of the book is that there's

1695
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:05,719
Speaker 4: a lot of people out there these days that didn't

1696
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:07,639
Speaker 4: grow up on these stories the way I did fifty

1697
01:27:07,720 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 4: years ago, but know the names. But you're probably not

1698
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:13,040
Speaker 4: going to go buy a four hundred and fifty page

1699
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:15,240
Speaker 4: book about Billy the Kid and drill that deep in.

1700
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 4: But if you want like an introduction to all these guys,

1701
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:22,080
Speaker 4: and by the way, you know, suggestions of other books

1702
01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:24,160
Speaker 4: to go read about each of them. This is a

1703
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:25,160
Speaker 4: really good place to start.

1704
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're very generous with site putting out source material

1705
01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:30,000
Speaker 2: and recommendations for further reading.

1706
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:31,840
Speaker 4: I just assumed that people were going to want to

1707
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:34,599
Speaker 4: know more, and so I take great joy in saying

1708
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:37,280
Speaker 4: this is a great book. Go read this, Go read that.

1709
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:38,240
Speaker 4: Don't read this.

1710
01:27:38,680 --> 01:27:42,160
Speaker 8: Your I liked your footnotes because they're very conversational. Well,

1711
01:27:42,960 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 8: I could like get a sense of your personality from

1712
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:45,680
Speaker 8: your footnotes.

1713
01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:50,200
Speaker 4: I have a lot of challenges and personal problems in life,

1714
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 4: but enthusiasm for my material is not one of them.

1715
01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:56,000
Speaker 4: I as I said at the very beginning, I yeah,

1716
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:57,760
Speaker 4: I had a heck of a lot of fun doing this,

1717
01:27:58,400 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 4: and I you know, I mean, the one thing you

1718
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:06,040
Speaker 4: worry about, like I really worried about this is Okay,

1719
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:08,720
Speaker 4: I'm a sixty three year old white guy writing a

1720
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:11,640
Speaker 4: book about in which eleven hundred people are killed, and

1721
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:13,719
Speaker 4: it's the twenty first century. And oh, by the way,

1722
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:17,360
Speaker 4: it's conversational and almost a little humorous in places. What

1723
01:28:17,479 --> 01:28:21,639
Speaker 4: could go wrong? Yeah, And so I've been you know, obviously,

1724
01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 4: the reviews. The reception has been very generous, and it's

1725
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 4: been one among I thought this was a prime candidate

1726
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:29,639
Speaker 4: to be canceled.

1727
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 8: Well, it's it's I mean, I think there's a lot

1728
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:33,599
Speaker 8: of it's.

1729
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:35,559
Speaker 3: A new era though, Man, there's been a vibe shift.

1730
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 4: You're not the first person just say great time for

1731
01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 4: this book.

1732
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:42,920
Speaker 6: There's like a very simplistic.

1733
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 8: Understanding of this era where it's like people move out

1734
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:52,520
Speaker 8: beyond the reach of the law, and then the criminals

1735
01:28:52,880 --> 01:28:55,040
Speaker 8: do what they want, and then there's this class of

1736
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:58,360
Speaker 8: heroes that rise up and sort of that's what naturally

1737
01:28:58,400 --> 01:29:03,040
Speaker 8: happens when people are out in the wilderness, right. And

1738
01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:06,720
Speaker 8: I think what's what's very what I really appreciate is

1739
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 8: how you set it up with these cultural undercurrents that

1740
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:11,960
Speaker 8: come out of the Civil War and come out of

1741
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:15,240
Speaker 8: Southern culture and even come from Europe.

1742
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:17,519
Speaker 6: That just adds a texture to it.

1743
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 8: But then at the same time, it's very funny and

1744
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:23,639
Speaker 8: it's very read like there's a depth, there's a depth

1745
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:27,400
Speaker 8: of analysis that's that's very satisfying, but then it's also

1746
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:28,040
Speaker 8: very funny.

1747
01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:30,280
Speaker 4: Well, and and and the thing there is you don't

1748
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:34,639
Speaker 4: look I want to I want to give the challenge

1749
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 4: for means I want to give the reader kind of

1750
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:40,559
Speaker 4: the most up to date academic thinking. But you don't

1751
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:44,000
Speaker 4: want to get all fusty and fuddy duddy and academic

1752
01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:46,880
Speaker 4: about it. So the idea is, yeah, I mean, if

1753
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:48,439
Speaker 4: you're going to read one of one of my books,

1754
01:29:48,479 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 4: if nothing else, it's I always say, I want I

1755
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:53,559
Speaker 4: want it to be an easy read. I want it

1756
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:55,240
Speaker 4: to be friendly. And if at the end of it

1757
01:29:55,280 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 4: you look you learn something, okay, that's great. But I'm

1758
01:29:57,920 --> 01:29:59,479
Speaker 4: not going to tell you what it should be.

1759
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:02,600
Speaker 2: Most this academic writing isn't boring because they wanted to

1760
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:05,680
Speaker 2: be boring. They're not good enough to make it interesting.

1761
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:08,760
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you're like, You're like, it's like

1762
01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:12,320
Speaker 2: they like they decide, yes, they decide to have it

1763
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:13,440
Speaker 2: be unapproachable.

1764
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. I think there's a class of

1765
01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:19,120
Speaker 4: academic that just loves being obscure or difficult to get through.

1766
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:21,840
Speaker 4: That's like a point of pride. You know.

1767
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:25,759
Speaker 2: Currant McCarthy wrote a thing about like advice to academic writers.

1768
01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 4: I didn't know that, but I would. I would go

1769
01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:30,120
Speaker 4: pick it up. Within twenty minutes of leaving.

1770
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:33,599
Speaker 7: I got to ask you one question before we finish up.

1771
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:36,360
Speaker 7: Since it's a Texas book and we were talking about

1772
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 7: a lot of the bad guys. Did the Texas Rangers

1773
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:43,360
Speaker 7: like did they did they earn their reputation as like

1774
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 7: someone these guys didn't want to cross.

1775
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:47,519
Speaker 6: They have a baseball team.

1776
01:30:48,040 --> 01:30:52,479
Speaker 4: Texas Rangers existed, they were They existed like three or

1777
01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:55,000
Speaker 4: four different times during the nineteen hundred, during the eighteen

1778
01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:59,000
Speaker 4: hundreds and Texas. The chaos in Texas got so bad

1779
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,400
Speaker 4: after the war that they were reintroduced. And I want

1780
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:06,439
Speaker 4: to say eighteen seventy four, and my judgment is, rarely

1781
01:31:06,439 --> 01:31:09,960
Speaker 4: in American history have we set a more effective introduction

1782
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 4: of law enforcement entity than the Texas Rangers. When they

1783
01:31:14,439 --> 01:31:18,439
Speaker 4: came into being, the state was overrun by random bad guys,

1784
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 4: a lot of feuds around cattle, just a lot of

1785
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:27,120
Speaker 4: violence and that stuff. That stuff just pretty much ends

1786
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 4: in four or five years. And I think that, as

1787
01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 4: much as anything, is a moment where all the frontier

1788
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:36,479
Speaker 4: begins to realize, hey, we don't have to live with

1789
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:39,720
Speaker 4: this level of chaos, this level of criminal Now they

1790
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:42,559
Speaker 4: are violence. And you know, Texas was not a perfect

1791
01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:45,680
Speaker 4: place thereafter, But I think that the worst of the

1792
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:48,519
Speaker 4: chaos following the war began to abb with the introduction

1793
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:50,120
Speaker 4: of the Rangers. They were the real deal.

1794
01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:53,400
Speaker 2: He's got There's a quote there from you where he

1795
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:56,559
Speaker 2: says something like the Texas Rangers set out to clean

1796
01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:59,640
Speaker 2: up some town, and then Brian writes, and boy did they?

1797
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:10,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, everybody the gunfighters. How Texas Made the

1798
01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:14,280
Speaker 3: West Wild? By Brian Burrow. Holy smokes, it's a good book.

1799
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1800
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:17,080
Speaker 2: I've been reading on my phone, but I'm gonna switch

1801
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:18,080
Speaker 2: over key signs for me.

1802
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:21,040
Speaker 3: Your watch, phill cover this.

1803
01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:22,760
Speaker 4: We've got it.

1804
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:25,559
Speaker 3: Let's do a little lesson.

1805
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:27,360
Speaker 4: It's okay to use or somebody got signed.

1806
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:28,600
Speaker 1: I've got it.

1807
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 4: I've got a right here. That's what I need.

1808
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:34,080
Speaker 2: This is the page you're supposed to sign if you

1809
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:35,960
Speaker 2: signed the wrong They used to call this page.

1810
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:38,360
Speaker 3: There's one page that they used to call the bastard page.

1811
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:41,760
Speaker 2: You ever hear this book publishing, there's a page that

1812
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:45,640
Speaker 2: doesn't have the publisher and it would call it the

1813
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:48,400
Speaker 2: bastard page. Or maybe I'm mixed up. That doesn't have

1814
01:32:48,439 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 2: the author. Like see how here there's a title, but

1815
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:56,240
Speaker 2: maybe this is the bastard page. It's a fatherless, bless book.

1816
01:32:56,320 --> 01:33:06,400
Speaker 3: But then you get to this page title author, publisher, Yeah.

1817
01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:09,599
Speaker 2: So sign that page for me, say to the to

1818
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:10,839
Speaker 2: my favorite man.

1819
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:17,439
Speaker 5: It's the best gun fighter.

1820
01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 4: I know.

1821
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:22,000
Speaker 3: He's going with my favorite man.

1822
01:33:22,120 --> 01:33:23,960
Speaker 6: Practice practice your border roll.

1823
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:29,519
Speaker 4: We should do some kind of video thing where you

1824
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:30,519
Speaker 4: practice the moves.

1825
01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:34,000
Speaker 3: No, well yeah, with one of those five pound pistols.

1826
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 3: Up my break, my fingers. Thanks man, thanks for coming

1827
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:41,360
Speaker 3: on my pleasure. I hope people check out the book.

1828
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:42,479
Speaker 3: I think they'll get a real kick out of it.

1829
01:33:42,479 --> 01:33:42,920
Speaker 3: Thanks again.