1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: We don't hear about it a lot, but founding father 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson had a lot to say about the US 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: economy and what it should look like. He didn't want 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Americans working in factories or hourly jobs. He didn't want 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Americans living in cities renting apartments. Jefferson thought that if 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: you had a boss or a landlord, you weren't economically independent, 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: and therefore you couldn't be politically independent. Jefferson wanted every 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: American to own their own land and be their own boss. 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: He envisioned a country of small family farms. He wrote 10 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: that farmers were closer to God, and he thought those 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: kinds of citizens could hold a fragile democracy together. That dream, 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: Jefferson laid out, I think it's still with us today. 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: We might call it the American dream. I mean we 14 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: didn't keep the farm part. But owning a home, having 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: enough money to take care of yourself and your family, 16 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: isn't that what we're all still striving for? Somewhere along 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: the way, that dream got off track. I have a 18 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: specified bid of one million, four hundred ninety three thousand, 19 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: three hundred and thirteen dollars and thirty cents, but having. 20 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 2: Bits above that. 21 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: Every Thursday at the King's County Supreme Court in Brooklyn, 22 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: there's an auction you. 23 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 3: Mean, one million, four hundred. 24 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: And ninety four for closed homes are sold to the 25 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: highest bidder. Some of these homes have been in families 26 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 1: for generations, going once, and just like that, going twice, 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: they're sold out from under them. Foreclosure happens when a 28 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: homeowner gets behind on their mortgage payments. Eventually the bank 29 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: takes the house back and they can auction it off HSBC. 30 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 4: Bank versus probably as Gates Avenue. 31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: Are you coach? Give your thirds? The next property caused 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: a bit of commotion great across so many people got 33 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: up to bed. The judge had to do a little 34 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: crowd control. 35 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: Five my sweater coming down the ones again. 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 4: We're hoping at five hundred. 37 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 3: And seventy six thousand, six fifty five and thirty cents on. 38 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: One point three one five. 39 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: This house is in Bedsty, a historically black neighborhood in Brooklyn, 40 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: where home prices have gone through the roof one million. 41 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,679 Speaker 4: Five to fifty casey one point six casey nice big. 42 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: The astronomical increase in home prices there means some families 43 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: are suddenly sitting on multi million dollar properties. It can 44 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: be a vulnerable position. 45 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 5: Anyone else one million, six hundred and fifty thousand. 46 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: A Casey anyhow, anyhow, one. 47 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 5: Million, six fifty once twice, three times. 48 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 3: It was only Casey. 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: The home on Gates Avenue sold for one point six 50 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: million dollars. 51 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: The gigs was more four million dollars. 52 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: In the crowd outside the courtroom, we met a housing 53 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: activist who comes to these auctions weekly just to observe. 54 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: She says her home is also facing for closure. 55 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 3: They got loans on my house that I don't owe 56 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 3: the money to. The loans weren't done by me. As 57 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 3: the lawyers to lawyers, I hie, one of them do 58 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 3: me into some loans, and the other one said, I 59 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 3: find the modification and I didn't. 60 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: Some people will do anything to get their hands on 61 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: valuable real estate, including tricks and scams. 62 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 3: I have another date, and I'm fighting the loans. I'm 63 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 3: fighting it. 64 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: The housing crisis is particularly bad in New York City, 65 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: but it's bad everywhere. I live in rural Oklahoma, and 66 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: even here, rent and home prices keep going up and up. 67 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: In the last few decades, the average cost of a 68 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: new home in the US has more than rippled. According 69 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: to one analysis, people with average incomes can't afford most 70 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: houses on the market. Younger generations are giving up on 71 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: the dream of home ownership altogether, and folks who do 72 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: own their homes are having a harder time keeping them. 73 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: How did we get here from a founding vision that 74 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: property ownership was for everyone to a modern real estate 75 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: market where that dream turned into a nightmare. You're listening 76 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: to First America, the true story of how the United 77 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: States came to be and how our current political moment 78 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: is two hundred and fifty years in the making, from 79 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and Critical Frequency. I'm your host, Rebecca Agall 80 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: Goheen Daldon de lacayetli Gei, La citizen of Cherry Nation. 81 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: Last episode, we talked about the fifteen year war between 82 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: Miamia Nation and the United States. But why was that 83 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: war fought in the first place? Why was the US 84 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: so helpen on building a fort in Kikayonge. To answer 85 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: that question, we've got to follow the money. And for 86 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: our founding fathers, money was a bit of a sore 87 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: subject because the country they were building while it was broke. 88 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: The United States had fought its war for independence on 89 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 2: a wing and a prayer. 90 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: This is Michael Blakeman. 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: I'm an associate professor of Early American history at Princeton University. 92 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: The new government didn't have enough money to pay for 93 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War. The government tried just printing more money, 94 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: but that led to runaway inflation. 95 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: There's like jokes in the newspaper about people walking around 96 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 2: with wheelbarrows of Continental dollars because they're going to use 97 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: them to wallpaper their rooms. 98 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: The government tried this other way to pay for things. 99 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 4: You know. 100 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: Imagine the Continental Army and they passed by a farm 101 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: and there's three delicious looking cows in the field. 102 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: The Army's not going to pay for those cows in 103 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: cash or silver. 104 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: Instead, they're going to write up a little IOU and say, 105 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 2: the Continental Army or the Continental Congress promises to pay 106 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: in the future. 107 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: These little IOUs were everywhere. The US also paid for 108 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War with loans from countries like Spain and France, 109 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: but then it couldn't make the payments. 110 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 2: Oh Man. At the end of the Revolutionary War, the 111 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: United States was in a financial disaster. 112 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: The Constitution hadn't been written yet, that wouldn't come for 113 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: a few more years, which means the federal government doesn't 114 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: have the power to tax people. The US is drowning 115 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: in debt and has no clear way out. There's widespread 116 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: fear that this great experiment in democracy will fail. How 117 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: did our founders plan to pay that debt? 118 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: I mean, land really was essential to how they thought 119 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: they were going to address this, this fiscal crisis. You know, 120 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: members of the Continental Congress, state legislators, state governors look 121 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: west and they see what they believe to be a 122 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: vast expanse of land that, like more than is theirs 123 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: for the taking, that they have already taken. As patriots 124 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: are looking westward, they're thinking about trying to solve their 125 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: financial problems by selling off what is in reality other 126 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: people's land. 127 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: The plan to fund the federal government sell indigenous land. 128 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: How they got away with it after the break. When 129 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: the US won the Revolutionary War in seventeen eighty three, 130 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: most Americans still lived on a small strip of land 131 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: hugging the east coast, but they claimed their new country 132 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: went all the way out to the Mississippi River. In reality, 133 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: most of that land was controlled, governed, and occupied by 134 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: indigenous nations, So why did Americans think it was theirs? 135 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 4: If you go back and read Thomas Jefferson's writings, he 136 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 4: thought that there were still wooly mammis or other sort 137 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 4: of magical beings out here. 138 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: This is Nick Estes again, history professor at University of 139 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: Minnesota and citizen of the Lower Brule Sioux Tribe. 140 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 4: It's like kind of like one of those like old 141 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 4: maps of the world with the kraken emerging from the sea, 142 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 4: like they just didn't know. 143 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that just kind of 144 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: brings home the fact that, like, even though so the 145 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: US signed this treaty with England, it's even legislating the 146 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: future of how this land will become a US state, 147 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: it's all in their heads. Yeah, it's confusing when you 148 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: think about it. It would be like New York claiming 149 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: all the land in Connecticut because New York wants it, 150 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: but the people of Connecticut still live in Connecticut, are 151 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: still governed by Connecticut. New York's claim is just that 152 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: a claim. How does that work legally? How could you 153 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: encounter a continent that is already occupied by hundreds of 154 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: indigenous nations and say this belongs to me, it belongs 155 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: to me England and then later like me, the United States. 156 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 4: That's a foundation of international law. Actually, anyone who was 157 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 4: not Christian was cast out as savage, and so indigenous 158 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 4: nations were seen a savage. You know, Black and African 159 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 4: people were seen a savage. Therefore they had no property 160 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 4: right rights. 161 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: The thing Nick is talking about is called the doctrine 162 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: of Discovery. It comes from a series of decrees issued 163 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: by popes in the fifteenth century that declared any land 164 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: treasure and even people belonging to non Christian nations were 165 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: free for the taking. Like, so, if indigenous people don't 166 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: have property rights, what rights do we have? 167 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 4: We had occupancy rights. 168 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: It's almost like we're like the renter in the United 169 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: States is our landlord? 170 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 4: Well, we're the future renter. We were just waiting for 171 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 4: our master. We didn't have civilizations, so therefore we couldn't 172 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 4: own the land. 173 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: That's so insulting. Under early versions of international law, indigenous 174 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: people didn't have property rights because we weren't Christian, because 175 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: we weren't civilized. From those original papal decrees, the concept 176 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: was adopted by England and then later the United States. 177 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: And is that still the law in the United States today. 178 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 4: That is still the law in the U States today. 179 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: The Doctrine of Discovery was adopted by the Supreme Court 180 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty three. It was cited by the Court 181 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: as recently as two thousand and five in a case 182 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: that undermined the Treaty in Land Rights of Oneida Indian Nation. 183 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: Bruth Bader Ginsburg wrote that opinion, the Doctrine of Discovery 184 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: is still part of federal Indian law, but it's also 185 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: the foundation of something else, property law. Saying that Native 186 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: people couldn't own land, saying that we were racially inferior 187 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: and didn't have the same property rights as white people. 188 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 1: That was actually the first step in creating private property 189 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: in the United States. What happened next in The Young 190 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: Baroke United States is the story of a heist. It 191 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: involves eighteenth century finance bros, expensive oyster lunches, congressional bribery, 192 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: and a drunk minister. But it's an important story because 193 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: it begins to explain what happened to the American dream. 194 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: It starts with a group of businessmen who want to 195 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: make money in real estate. 196 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: They get together in a tavern in Boston, called the 197 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 2: Bunch of Grapes. 198 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: This is Michael Blakeman again and hatch. 199 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: This scheme to try and buy land from the Continent 200 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: of Congress. 201 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: They name their business the Ohio Company because their eyes 202 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: are set on the Ohio Country, the hot New Frontier. 203 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: This is the land Miamia Nation and the Tuawa Cpwa 204 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: Alliance we're fighting to protect last episode. And the Ohio 205 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: Company has a pretty good business idea. They want to 206 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: buy land from the federal government for cheap and sell 207 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: it to settlers for a profit. That land, of course, 208 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: comes with a hitch. 209 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: The majority of this land was still squarely owned and 210 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: unseated by Native nations. 211 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: The Ohio Company's thinking was this the US government would 212 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: eventually force those indigenous people off their land, and then 213 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,479 Speaker 1: the company could sell it for more money to white settlers. 214 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: This business model was called land speculation. It's the same 215 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: thing we talked about George Washington doing in episode one. 216 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,119 Speaker 1: But first, the Ohio Company needs a land grant from Congress. 217 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: In short, they need Congress to agree to a real 218 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: estate sale. 219 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 2: They send a guy of kind of a stodgy I 220 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: think of him as kind of stangy minister and schoolmaster 221 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: named Manasa Cutler. 222 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: And so Minister Manasa heads to New York City where 223 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: Congress meets at the time. 224 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 2: They have a pitch to make. They say, you know, 225 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: this scheme will a enable the Continental Congress to retire 226 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: a bunch of its debt and will help bring in 227 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 2: their mind security and order and stability and social institutions 228 00:13:58,360 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: like schools and churches. 229 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: So kind of like a modern day developer might say, Hey, 230 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: city council, if you cut me a deal, I'll turn 231 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: this industrial zone into a ritzy neighborhood. Minister Manassa told Congress, 232 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: if you cut us a deal, will turn indigenous land 233 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: into white settlement. But he runs into a problem. Congress 234 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: is in the middle of a moral debate, and that 235 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: debate has nothing to do with indigenous people. They're fine 236 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: selling off our land, but they're debating who they should 237 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: sell our land to. 238 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: Congress was opposed to selling land to speculators. Congress was 239 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: still attached to the idea of selling land directly to 240 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: ordinary farmers. 241 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: Those hard working farmers Thomas Jefferson imagined would hold the 242 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: country together. That's who Congress wanted to sell the land to. 243 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: And so after Minister Manassa makes his pitch to Congress, 244 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: it falls flat, the deal. 245 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: Stalls, and here's the truly corrupt part. 246 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: This is when a guy named William Deer into the scene, who. 247 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: I think of as like the late eighteenth century version 248 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: of a finance bro. 249 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: Doer is a former member of the Continental Congress. He 250 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: even works for a while as the Assistant Secretary of 251 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: the Treasury. 252 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: And then leaves because he says, I can do better 253 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: for myself. That's actually that's a direct quote, to do better, basically, 254 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: to free up some more time for land speculation. 255 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: Doer wants to sell the land he buys from Congress 256 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: to foreign investors, basically rich people in Europe. But that 257 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: pitch is so far from Thomas Jefferson's vision it can't 258 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: be public. Doer wants to secretly buy land through the 259 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: Ohio Company. They'd be like his cover. Doer starts talking 260 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: to Minister Manassa. 261 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: And they're having oyster lunches in Brooklyn where they're not 262 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: going to be overheard by, you know, people who might 263 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: write about this in the newspapers. 264 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: At one dinner, Minister Manassa drinks fifteen different kinds of wine. 265 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: Can you imagine the hangover. Doer has some powerful people 266 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: bought into his scheme, including at least one member of Congress. 267 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: He says it has to be kept a profound secret. 268 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 2: I can bring my group, which he describes as including 269 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: a number of principal characters in the city. It's a 270 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: nice and vague a nice and vague descriptor we'll join 271 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: in and we'll expand the size of your purchase. Just 272 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: keep our involvement a secret. The scheme works, and as 273 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: a result, Congress authorizes a sale that was eventually much 274 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: bigger than what the Ohio Company had come asking for. 275 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: With the help of Doers political connections, they buy twenty 276 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: percent of the land that is now Ohio. On the 277 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: other side of the scheme was the war we talked 278 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: about last episode. On the other side of oyster lunches 279 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: in eighteenth century finance Bros. Was extreme violence, ethnic cleansing, 280 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: and eventually genocide. All that so these men could make 281 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: more money. The Ohio Company sale was like a fork 282 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: in the road. Congress needed to decide between selling land 283 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: to small farmers or big business. Congress chose big business, 284 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: and that decision stuck. The deals for land speculators kept 285 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: coming and so did the bribes. 286 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: I mean they are offering shares of the scheme to 287 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: like influential members of the Massachusetts State Legislature. 288 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: When land companies wanted to buy over half the land 289 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: in present day Alabama and Mississippi, they offered bribes to 290 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: members of the Georgia State legislature. All but one lawmaker 291 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: who voted for the sale took a bribe. 292 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 2: Oh, this is the landmarket is a wash with corruption 293 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 2: and fraud. 294 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: So that dream of selling small parcels of land to 295 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: individual farmers, it died on the vine. Through an orgy 296 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: of corruption and greed. Eighteenth century finance bros. Bought almost 297 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: one hundred million acres of land from the government. 298 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 2: We're talking about basically half of present day Ohio, the 299 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: western third of present day New York, the western third 300 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: or so of Pennsylvania, pretty much all of Kentucky and Tennessee, 301 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 2: and big chunks of Alabama and Mississippi, not to mention 302 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: Georgia itself, and my gosh, all of West Virginia and 303 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 2: a huge extent of Maine. 304 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: If you live in the eastern half of the United States, 305 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: there's a fair chance you live on land that was 306 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: caught up in this scheme. When I first heard this story, 307 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: it reminded me a lot of what's happening today. I 308 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: feel like our government still binds to the whims of finance. 309 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: Broke billionaires are cozy with the president. Meanwhile, Trump is 310 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: getting richer off the office. After Elon Musk laid off 311 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of federal workers, he became the world's first trillionaire. 312 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: And so many people still struggle to pay for basic 313 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: things like housing. Some experts say we live in an oligarchy, 314 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: and I think I agree. The problem of money in 315 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: politics feels so modern, so present day, But what I 316 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: learned is that it's always been there. The corrupting power 317 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: of money is part of the foundation of our political system. 318 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: Land speculators in the late seventeen hundreds bought so much 319 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: land so quickly it created a bubble, and then the 320 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: bubble burst. Some of the most prominent land speculators, including Doer, 321 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: wound up and debtors prison. The landmarket falling short also 322 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: meant it didn't pay off the federal debt. That's part 323 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: of why we have taxes. So you might think that 324 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 1: land speculation as a business model ended, but no, the 325 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: opposite happened. It grew with the Louisiana purchase, Indian removal, 326 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: and westward expansion. Speculation continued and it became a cornerstone 327 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: of the American real estate market. As the US expanded 328 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: from sea to Shining Sea, it ran out of indigenous 329 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: land to. 330 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 5: Take the frontier formally closes in eighteen ninety, and there's 331 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 5: a real question on the table, like how are we 332 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 5: going to keep making tons of money? We're running out 333 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 5: of land. 334 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: This is k Sue Park, she's a law professor at UCLA. 335 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,719 Speaker 5: You know, it's not very long before they revamp that 336 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 5: entire property market. 337 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 2: Do the production of a standardized mortgage. 338 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: The mortgage market really starts in the early nineteen hundreds 339 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 1: as a way for financial institutions to keep making money 340 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: off land. 341 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 5: Almost every one of those little parcels on the ground 342 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 5: then has a mortgage attached to it, and then that 343 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 5: becomes a huge market and mortgage backed securities, and now 344 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 5: there's like markets on top of that. 345 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: So it's almost like once the United States ran out 346 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: of space to expand, it kelpt building wealth through land 347 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: through like mortgages, by like just piling more money into 348 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: real estate through these other economic ways exactly. Yeah, And 349 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: that whole financial system that's built on debt and credit 350 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: and land and loans and bundling mortgages and selling them, 351 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: it would not exist without foreclosure. 352 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 5: It becomes a really look way of running a market 353 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 5: because once you give that kind of option to lenders 354 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 5: to take land and kick people off forever, more people 355 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 5: are willing to lend. 356 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: Case says foreclosure. It wasn't always a thing. 357 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: In England. 358 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 5: It had really been very hard to take a family's 359 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 5: land from them forever for non payment of even a 360 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 5: secure debt. There were just other kinds of remedies. So 361 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 5: if somebody owed you money and you couldn't pay them back, 362 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 5: they could not take the land from you forever. 363 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: But when settlers got to North America, taking people's land 364 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: suddenly got a lot easier. Case Sue looked into it, 365 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: and the first instances of foreclosure are in colonial America, 366 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: and it's invented as a way to take Native people's land. 367 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 5: There's all of these stories of saying, well, we'll take 368 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 5: your lands to settle these. 369 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: Debts and okay, so it's almost like they do it 370 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: to Native people first and then they allow it to 371 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: be done to other people exactly. So the idea of 372 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: kicking someone out of their house or off their land 373 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: because they can't pay a debt starts in the American 374 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: colonies as a way to kick Native people off their land, 375 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,479 Speaker 1: and eventually foreclosure was not just happening to Native people 376 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: but anyone with property and an unpaid debt. 377 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 5: They accounted for every inch of land and measured it. 378 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 5: They made a market out of that land. They brought 379 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 5: easy foreclosure, and they were able to build this modern 380 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 5: speculative real estate market on top of those basic tools, 381 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 5: which were also all tools for taking Indigenous lands in 382 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 5: the first place. 383 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: From its creation in the nineteen twenties and thirties, the 384 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: mortgage market kept growing. 385 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 5: Even in the nineteen fifties, you would have maybe three 386 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 5: years if you went into default if you fell behind 387 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 5: on your loan, and now it's three months. 388 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: Oh wow. And does the mortgage market grew? It got 389 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: more hostile. Like if I'm just a person where I'm 390 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: like really frustrated with the price of groceries or rent, 391 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: why should I care about this history? Like what does 392 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: it have to do with my life? 393 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 5: I mean, like it or not? This history determines how 394 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 5: everyone is able to live today. It determines the logic 395 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 5: of our economy, how much you're paying in rent, you know, 396 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 5: whether you can buy. 397 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: A house or not. 398 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 5: And that I think is a super important story for 399 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 5: us to realize because it's so naturalized today. Right Like 400 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 5: everyone talks about real estate, and everybody thinks that real 401 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 5: estate prices can just go up forever. But it's like 402 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 5: insane because that's literally where people have to live, and 403 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 5: it can't go up forever because people can't afford that, 404 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 5: you know, and eventually everybody's homeless. 405 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: We built our economy on stolen indigenous land, and after 406 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: our country had taken most of what it could, the 407 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: real estate market still needed to grow. It couldn't grow 408 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: out anymore, so it started growing up, which meant property 409 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: just got more and more expensive. And that same system 410 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: that left a lot of people struggling made other people rich. 411 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 4: I think of private property in the United States as 412 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 4: a cornerstorm for not just American wealth or US wealth, 413 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 4: but also for the familial and generational wealth of white families. 414 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: This is Niic Gustus again. At the founding, over half 415 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: of all wealth that Americans owned was land. 416 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 4: I mean everyone, this has benefited from the dispossession of 417 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 4: indigenous land, and I think oftentimes we think like, well, 418 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 4: I'm not responsible for the sins or the crimes of 419 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 4: my ancestors, but you inherit the system that they created, 420 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 4: and you also inherit the wealth that they acquired. 421 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: A quarter of white families in the US descend from 422 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: settlers who got free indigenous land from the government. This 423 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: is true for the white side of my family. And 424 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: while settlers were building all that wealth with native land, 425 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: native people were collateral damage. 426 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,959 Speaker 4: So our family became cattle ranchers. Actually, my great grandfather, Reuben, 427 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 4: was called tongue because he would take the tongue of 428 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 4: a cow and it was considered the most prized item, 429 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 4: and he would give it to families as sort of 430 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 4: like a goodwill gesture, a way to kind of get 431 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 4: back to the community. 432 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: Private property came to Nick's reservation. The government assigned land 433 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: to every citizen. His great grandfather got land next to 434 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: the river. 435 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 4: Along the Missouri River bottom lands. We ran our cattle 436 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 4: there and it was prime like real estate, so to speak. 437 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 4: It was like riverfront property. 438 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: But then the government wanted that land too. Why did 439 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: the states and why did local white residents want a 440 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: dam there to. 441 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 4: Protect white settlement downriver and in places like Saint Louis, 442 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,239 Speaker 4: they decided to sacrifice native lands. When they came up 443 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 4: with their plans in the thirties, they didn't even put 444 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 4: reservations on the map. And so my great grandfather and 445 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 4: my great grandmother had found out about this and actually 446 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 4: wrote the congress person at the time and said, we 447 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 4: oppose this. 448 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: How many families were flooded out. 449 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 4: Every Dakota and Lakota reservation along the Missouri River was affected. 450 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 4: This resulted in the real the forest relocation of thirty 451 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 4: percent of reservation populations. On some reservations like ours, it 452 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 4: was actually like close to half, if not more. If 453 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 4: you think about it in terms of capitals. So like 454 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 4: our capital city is the liberal town, the entire liberal 455 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 4: town was flooded and destroyed. Imagine, you know, flooding Albany, 456 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 4: New York. It would probably cause a lot of political 457 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 4: economic turmoil. And that's actually what happened to us at 458 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 4: that at that. 459 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: Time, what happened to your family after your land was flooded. 460 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 4: Personally, we lost our cattle herd to that because the 461 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 4: land we were relocated on was just not suitable. It's gumbo. 462 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 4: If anyone knows our area, gumbo is just kind of 463 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 4: this like hard clay. When it gets wet, it just 464 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 4: sticks onto your shoes, onto your vehicles. Is unusable. Grass 465 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 4: doesn't really grow in it, you know, you can't grow 466 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 4: crops on it. 467 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was that your grandparents' generation. 468 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 4: My great grandparents' generation, my grandparents' generation, and my dad's generation. 469 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 4: So it's three generations impacted. And I remember seeing photos 470 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 4: of my great grandparents after the relocation, and they were 471 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 4: literally like living in a tar paper shack because their 472 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 4: home was destroyed, and they were all smiling. I mean, 473 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 4: they like happy as can be, but I know it 474 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 4: impacted them. I mean, my grandparents, perhaps for a variety 475 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 4: of reasons, were economically socially devastated by it to the 476 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 4: point where they couldn't even take care of their own children. 477 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 4: And so a lot of them were taken to boarding school. 478 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 4: So every one of my aunts and uncles went to 479 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 4: boarding school for at least until the eighth grade. My 480 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 4: dad went to boarding school until he was a graduate 481 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 4: of high school. He was the youngest. 482 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: Because they just couldn't provide for you, They couldn't. 483 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 4: Provide for them, and the churches prayed on that too. 484 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 4: They knew that people couldn't take care of their own kids. 485 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: One thing I think about a lot, like there's always 486 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: this thing of like why are Native people so poor? 487 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: Like how do we solve poverty in Indian country? And 488 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: it's like, because we were made poor. 489 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 4: And this wasn't a nineteenth century phenomenon, this was an 490 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 4: act that happened in the twentieth century. 491 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 3: How do you. 492 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: Think your life would have been different if the damn 493 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: had never been built? 494 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't really do counterfactuals that much, 495 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 4: but I do think that the boarding school, the Catholic 496 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 4: Indian boarding school, would have had less of an impact 497 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 4: and influence on the absolute horror that inflicted on my 498 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 4: family and my aunts and uncles. But I can't I 499 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 4: don't want to like speculate like if some of them 500 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 4: would be alive today, but perhaps they would. 501 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: We created a system to consume native land, and I 502 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: think for a long time in our country, most Americans 503 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: thought it would only affect those people, those indigenous people 504 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: that didn't really have property rights. But that cruel system, 505 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: it's the same real estate market we have today. So 506 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: when the market feels inhumane, when families get kicked out 507 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: of their homes, when rent goes up and up until 508 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: everyone is struggling to find a place to live, that's 509 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: not the system run off the rails or out of control. 510 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: That's the system doing exactly what it was created to do. 511 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: How the history we've been talking about explains the chaos 512 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: we're seeing today. 513 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: Another ICE agent climbed into the back seat and put 514 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: his arm around my neck and headrests and used his 515 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: other hand to click my seat belt to take my 516 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 2: seat belt off. 517 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: I think it's it's not. Is that a new thing. 518 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: This is what we've done. We're good at this. Next 519 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: time on First America. If you like what you're hearing, 520 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: please leave a review. It's one of the best ways 521 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: to help listeners find this show. You can also support 522 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 1: First America by subscribing or sharing episodes with your friends. 523 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: First America was made possible by the generous support of 524 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: the Henry Loose Foundation in the NYU Yale American Indian 525 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: Sovereignty Project. Additional support came from Indian Collective First Nations 526 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: Development Institute, Jajavio Tom of sand Menuel Nation, Borealist Philanthropy 527 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: and Black Liberation Indigenous Sovereignty Collective. Our fiscal sponsor is 528 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: Red Media. I dreamed this project into the world in 529 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: collaboration with an amazing group of Indigenous scholars, including Maggie 530 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: Blackhawk Fond de lac Ojibwe Ned Blackhawk, citizen of the 531 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: tm Oak Tribe of Western Shoshone, Phil Deloria, descendant of 532 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: the Standing Rock and Yankton Sioux tribes, and Nick Estes, 533 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: citizen of the World Lower Burul Sioux Tribe. I. Rebecca Nagel, 534 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: citizen of Cherokee Nation, also reported, wrote, hosted, and executive produced. 535 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: The show First America is produced by Critical Frequency and 536 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: distributed by Pushkin Industries. Our managing producer is Amy Westerveldt. 537 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: Senior producer and sound designer is Brendan Baker. Our story 538 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: editor is Audrey Quinn. Our producers are Jules Bradley, Sarah Ventriy, 539 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: Kim Nettervi Petersa, and Jordan Gosspere. Our editorial consultant is 540 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: Connie Walker, citizen of the Okinese First Nation. Fact checking 541 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: by Naomi bar Our partnership's director is Lindsay Crowder. Our 542 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 1: development consultant is Jenny Lawton. Our theme song is by 543 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: Raven Chikan, who is Dinney. Scoring by Laura Ortman, citizen 544 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: of the White Mountain Apache Tribe and Raven Chikon artwork 545 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: by Kelly Gonzalez, Citizen of Cherokee Nation. The team at 546 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: Pushkin is Greta Cone CEO, Eric Sandler, Chief Strategy Officer, 547 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: Gray vice Ross, VP of Business Development, Morgan Ratner, Director 548 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: of Marketing, Owen Miller Content Delivery Associate, Kira Posey Creative 549 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: Partnerships Manager, Jordan McMillan Social Media Manager, Brian Strabinick, Senior 550 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: Analytics Manager, and Jake Flanagan Production Council. Special thanks this 551 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: episode to Martin Case, Jody Bird, Emily Connelly, David Correa, 552 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 1: and Jason Moore