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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: And welcome to stuff I Ever told you production of

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Speaker 2: iHeart Radio, and welcome to another edition of Monday.

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Speaker 1: Many.

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Speaker 2: For this one, I would suggest checking out our recent

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Speaker 2: Monday Mini on compulsory heterosexuality or COMPET, because this is

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Speaker 2: kind of a companion piece to that episode. We're not

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Speaker 2: going to get to in depth about it, but we're

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Speaker 2: just going to mention things like sexual assault and depression

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Speaker 2: things like that. But today we are talking about internalized homophobia,

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Speaker 2: which is related. I did mention it in that COMPET episode,

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Speaker 2: and this is one of those things where I imagine

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Speaker 2: most listeners know what internalized homophobia is, but I figured

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Speaker 2: I would do a quick rundown on it since I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing a lot about it online right now, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: folks are mixing it up with compet and or heteronormativity.

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Speaker 2: They're all related, but they are different from each other.

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Speaker 2: We also kind of saw this in action at our

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Speaker 2: end of the year Sminty meeting where somebody bought up

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Speaker 2: compulsory heterosexuality without us mentioning it and it became a

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Speaker 2: topic of conversation.

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Speaker 1: I was like, yes, we just did an episode on us.

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Speaker 3: A few times in life where we're like, yeah, we

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Speaker 3: just did an episode of that.

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Speaker 2: Actually a lot of times sometimes you know, maybe we're

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Speaker 2: not trindy in terms of wearing suede, but sometimes I

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Speaker 2: feel like we are ahead of the curve and what

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Speaker 2: becomes a conversation topic. But yes, right now, that is

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Speaker 2: a big topic of conversation. So I wanted to come

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Speaker 2: back and just clarify some things about internalized homophobia, which

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Speaker 2: very basically, it's what it sounds like, similar to internalized misogyny.

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Speaker 2: It is an involuntary, internalized feeling that homosexuality is wrong, bad,

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Speaker 2: a moral It's sometimes called internalized oppression. It is the

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Speaker 2: internal belief that heterosexuality is the norm and the correct

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Speaker 2: way to be, and something that we internalize due to

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Speaker 2: a bunch of different societal factors, systemic factors like religion

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Speaker 2: or education systems, medical systems, politics, media, in our family

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Speaker 2: and friends, everywhere you can get it. There's also internalized transphobia, specifically,

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Speaker 2: which revolves around internalized negative perceptions and fears around the

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Speaker 2: trans experience. Same with internalized biphobia. We're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about this more in a second, but as I've said before,

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Speaker 2: there is still within the queer community infighting and still

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Speaker 2: can be judgments of like a bisexual person from a

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Speaker 2: queer person, so that that does still happen. Related term

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Speaker 2: internalized heterosexism is when a queer person internally believes that

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Speaker 2: heterosexuality is superior. So maybe I'm just gonna make this

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Speaker 2: mini series and break down all of these terms because

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Speaker 2: there are.

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Speaker 1: A lot of them.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So for gay people, internalized homophobia can manifest and

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Speaker 2: self hatred, stigmatization, or disgust, or even repressing their sexuality

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Speaker 2: or self harming behaviors and suicidality. Research shows that, especially

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Speaker 2: for younger folks realizing their sexuality, it may take them

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Speaker 2: years to confide in someone about it. I believe the

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Speaker 2: study I was looking at I was five years after

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Speaker 2: they realized and I've talked about it before, but just

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Speaker 2: to mention, I did this too.

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Speaker 1: Am my experience of trying to.

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Speaker 2: Pray the gay away, where I would literally pray, please,

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Speaker 2: I do not want to gay because I knew it

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Speaker 2: was gonna make my life more difficult and potentially dangerous.

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Speaker 2: And we did talk about that in the compet episode

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Speaker 2: as well, that we internalize that being gay is dangerous

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Speaker 2: and unsafe.

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Speaker 1: As children.

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Speaker 2: It starts at a very young age, and there's sign

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Speaker 2: behind that too, I'm not just saying that. And it

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Speaker 2: can cause a bunch of other issues for gay folks too,

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Speaker 2: like jealousy of friends straight relationships, like you're jealous that

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Speaker 2: they get to just have this relationship, get to just

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Speaker 2: have but you know, like it's not as simple perhaps

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Speaker 2: in some cases for gay people. Contempt for other gay people.

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Speaker 2: And so this is what I was sort of mentioning

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Speaker 2: before this is it can be something relatively minor, as

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Speaker 2: in kind of using gay as like a haha, that's

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Speaker 2: an insult, but it can be something absolutely heinous, and

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Speaker 2: that can lead to the the trope of a conservative

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Speaker 2: religious leader or a politician secretly being gay. It's usually

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Speaker 2: a man who often grooms and sexually abuses children of

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Speaker 2: the same sex. Now, obviously that is a different episode

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot more nuances in there, but that

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Speaker 2: can be an example of how horrible it can get

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Speaker 2: trying to change your sexuality, denial that things like homophobia

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Speaker 2: is a real problem, and or engaging in outright homophobic

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Speaker 2: behaviors to fit in. Feeling inadequate, over underachieving, low self esteem,

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Speaker 2: and poor body image, attempts at passing as straight and

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Speaker 2: even getting married to pass a straight, remaining in toxic

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Speaker 2: or abusive relationships, shame, fear, defensiveness, depression, withdrawal, bitterness, continual

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Speaker 2: self monitoring, which is exhausting when you're always thinking about

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Speaker 2: how people are perceiving you and not wanting them to

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Speaker 2: know that you are gay. Risky sexual practices, substance abuse,

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Speaker 2: and reluctance to show affection, which again because you think

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Speaker 2: people will misinterpret it. This also we're not going to

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Speaker 2: go into this today, but I did just read an

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Speaker 2: article about this that I thought was related. But it's

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Speaker 2: when you are out and straight friends kind of use

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Speaker 2: you to validate that they're attractive.

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Speaker 1: They're like, oh, do you think I'm attractive?

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Speaker 2: Right, so you even gay people think I'm attractive, which

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Speaker 2: has happened to me and I hadn't really realized it

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Speaker 2: until I.

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Speaker 1: Read that article. Oh yeah, Yeah, it's a whole thing.

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Speaker 2: It's a whole thing, and it sucks because then you're

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Speaker 2: just kind of a what are you?

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Speaker 1: You're validating them?

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Speaker 2: But anyway, I did find a very recent twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: five study called sexual orientation and internalized homophobia of middle

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Speaker 2: aged and older gay and lesbian adults the role of

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Speaker 2: social relationships, and it found that self identified gay men

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Speaker 2: had higher levels of internalized homophobia as compared to self

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Speaker 2: identified lesbians amongst those that they surveyed. I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: if this is true of the younger generation, but with

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Speaker 2: toxic masculinity and all that, it doesn't surprise me at all.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of it did because they were trying

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Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of the reason for it,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of it did have to do with

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Speaker 2: the level of support and friendships. And we've talked about

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Speaker 2: that women usually have more support and friendships than men do,

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Speaker 2: often because of this toxic masculinity and just our general

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Speaker 2: misogyny and sexism in society.

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Speaker 4: But yes, I thought that was interesting, and so.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons that I wanted to talk about this,

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Speaker 2: and I want to be clear to articulate this correctly,

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Speaker 2: is that, Okay, this is a it's gonna sound like

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Speaker 2: a silly story, but just stay with me. First side,

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Speaker 2: I was talking to a good friend of mine about shipping,

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Speaker 2: and I was saying, I generally never ever believe my

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Speaker 2: usually gay ships are going to happen. I just don't

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Speaker 2: think that's the case. So I always know like this

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Speaker 2: is something that I like that will never actually come

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Speaker 2: to life on screen or whatever media it is. And

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Speaker 2: I was talking specifically about the Mandalorian and Luke Skywalker,

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Speaker 2: who I love to ship together, but I never.

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Speaker 1: Actually thought they were going to get together.

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Speaker 2: They literally have I think two minutes of screen time together,

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Speaker 2: but some people really did. They really did, and were

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Speaker 2: devastated when it kind of became clear it wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to happen. And I just said, without really thinking about it,

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Speaker 2: I said, well, obviously the male writers really connected to

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Speaker 2: this strong male hero. They associate themselves with him. They're

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Speaker 2: never ever going to make him gay because that would

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Speaker 2: imply that maybe they are gay. And I just it

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Speaker 2: was a strange thing that I just said it without

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Speaker 2: I want to be clear, this is me projecting this

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Speaker 2: is I do have no evidence behind this.

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Speaker 1: I have no.

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Speaker 2: Statement that I read or thing that I saw. This

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Speaker 2: was just something that I believed deeply, and even if

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Speaker 2: they are allies, they still don't want to be gay.

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Speaker 2: Like there was something in me that just believed it.

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Speaker 2: And so I really had to say with that and

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Speaker 2: think like why cause I just I just said it,

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Speaker 2: I didn't have any evidence of it. And it's not

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Speaker 2: like I don't believe that's happened or people don't believe that,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't have any evidence of it, and so

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Speaker 2: I really had to do some self examination after that.

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Speaker 2: It was like, wait, why did you say that so authoritatively?

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Speaker 2: I don't really know anything about them, To be honest, I.

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Speaker 3: Guess it in my head that makes sense because not

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Speaker 3: because of your thought of like gay's bed, but because

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Speaker 3: typically what we see in toxic of masculinity, anything into

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Speaker 3: that realm would imply that they have gayish thoughts, and

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Speaker 3: for toxic masculinity that is a no no. So because

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Speaker 3: we are living in a state where that is more

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Speaker 3: prevalent that it makes sense that it's a And it

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Speaker 3: was a more of a a scolding of them more

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Speaker 3: so than your thoughts. That's how I wanted to taking that,

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Speaker 3: because I'm like, yeah, of course they would never because

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Speaker 3: they don't have the understanding that this is a thing

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Speaker 3: that could be and it seems should be natural in

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Speaker 3: that it could be this instead, But like, because men

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Speaker 3: are so afraid of anything looking less manly that they

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Speaker 3: would absolutely be like, that's not the way they would

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Speaker 3: think or type of thing in that conversation.

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Speaker 1: So that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: No, And I that's where I'm kind of like, I

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Speaker 2: think it's both that but also that I was just

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Speaker 2: so ready to without any evidence anything. But I also

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Speaker 2: had this thought of they would be embarrassed. Yeah, they

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Speaker 2: would be embarrassed that so many people are thinking this

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Speaker 2: character might be gay because they it's themselves on it's

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Speaker 2: an idealized version of themselves.

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Speaker 3: But then you have thinking like if Pedro Pascal exactly cool,

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Speaker 3: like I would give him a benefit of the doubt

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Speaker 3: of being like no, but he'd be okay with it

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Speaker 3: because he has evolved and understood this is not an insult.

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Speaker 3: This is not a thing, and like in any perception

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Speaker 3: to him, it just as a natural way of being

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Speaker 3: and people ship this okay, And he'd be like, let's

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Speaker 3: I'm down, this is where we're going, But this is

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Speaker 3: where we're going.

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Speaker 2: He has been open about it. He I think he's

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Speaker 2: a that it just Timothy Oliphant's character and.

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Speaker 1: Then makes yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: But like it feels like in his understanding and the

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Speaker 3: understanding of like, this is not why are you so insulted? Biased?

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Speaker 3: Is such a bad thing, and he understands that's not

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Speaker 3: a bad thing. This is not but the head like

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Speaker 3: the compulsory heterosexuality would make it seem like that's not

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Speaker 3: the norm, which I've seen after our conversation, a lot

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Speaker 3: of social media's come up because there was a post

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Speaker 3: where a girl supposedly rejected a woman because she was straight,

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Speaker 3: and then she got hate from everybody and dosed for it.

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Speaker 3: And then the people instead of being like, oh, it's

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Speaker 3: bad to be docs, it's that bad, like if you're

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Speaker 3: for people to be not okay with rejection, but that

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Speaker 3: is a normal response, instead everybody was like, yeah, she

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Speaker 3: should be offended. It's not normal being straight as normal?

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Speaker 3: What is wrong with y'all? Why are y'all defending? Like

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Speaker 3: it was the amount of comments that says straight is normal,

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Speaker 3: which was the first time I've ever seen that. I

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Speaker 3: was like, what is happening? Are these bots? Is this

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Speaker 3: new tactic that I have missed since this conversation or

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Speaker 3: like it it was a weird defensiveness that I was like, what, well,

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Speaker 3: that's not that's not even a part of the conversation.

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Speaker 3: I don't get what's happening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have to come.

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Speaker 2: We said it before, but I do think something's going

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Speaker 2: on with bots.

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Speaker 3: Something is going on with these amount of the amount

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Speaker 3: of bots that I've seen in that type of conversation

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Speaker 3: that I was like, what is going on to the

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Speaker 3: amount of bots that is rationalizing the death that's happened,

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Speaker 3: the murder of the woman in Minnesota that has just

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Speaker 3: recently happened by ice, as well as just different conversations

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Speaker 3: that I'm like, this, this doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it legitimately frightens me. It has for a long time,

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Speaker 2: but now I'm seeing something has increased.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But anyway, Yeah, I mean that's horrible.

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Speaker 2: That's maybe I will continue this series because that's related

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Speaker 2: to another issue, another term.

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Speaker 1: But I do just again, before we move on from

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Speaker 1: the Mandalorian, I want to be one hundred percent clear.

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Speaker 4: That was your projection.

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Speaker 1: That was me projecting.

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Speaker 3: There is no not Pedro Pascal is down.

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Speaker 2: I'm not putting any thing out there that what they

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Speaker 2: said or did or maybe I don't know. Maybe they

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Speaker 2: did and I don't know about it, but I don't

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Speaker 2: personally know about any of that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that was totally me projecting. Yes, okay, noted, all right,

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Speaker 1: thank you? So uh.

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Speaker 2: If you are struggling with internalized homophobia or transphobia or

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Speaker 2: whatever it may be, there are a lot of resources

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Speaker 2: out there for you. Here is some basic advice from

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Speaker 2: the Trevor Project. Acknowledge and understand it and how it

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Speaker 2: impacts you, and ask questions about it, like where did

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Speaker 2: it come from, what makes you feel it, what brings

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Speaker 2: it up? Fine community and support and with healthy slash

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Speaker 2: positive queer content. Challenge negative beliefs if you experience them.

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Speaker 2: Accept your queerness on your own terms and know that

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Speaker 2: those terms can change. So sometimes that can mean you

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Speaker 2: don't if you're not ready to come out and that

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Speaker 2: and it might be later or maybe never, But just

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Speaker 2: figure that out for yourself and realize that it can

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Speaker 2: change and your sexuality can change. And also, don't assume

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Speaker 2: someone's sexuality should never know.

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Speaker 1: You never know. It's not your business.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're straight and you know someone struggling with this,

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Speaker 2: here are some tips from Healthline. Assure them that through

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Speaker 2: your words and actions, that you accept people of all

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Speaker 2: gender and sexual identities. Speak out against anti gay sentiments

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Speaker 2: and legislation. Believe what they tell you about their lived experience.

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Speaker 2: Create space for the lgbt QIA plus people in your life,

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Speaker 2: and continue to educate yourself about people who are different

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Speaker 2: from you. And obviously all of this is intersectional as well.

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Speaker 2: We talked about that competitis too, because in different cultures

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Speaker 2: that this can have other complications. You have to consider

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Speaker 2: our I mean, even your family, honestly, like it can

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Speaker 2: be very specific. So these are some basic tips, but

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Speaker 2: if you need more, there are plenty of resources out there.

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Speaker 1: Again, I think most of you listeners probably know about this,

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Speaker 1: but I just I.

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Speaker 2: Have seen a lot of conversations about it online like relately,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, maybe we should just go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go ahead.

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Speaker 2: But listeners, if you have any resources or any topics

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Speaker 2: related to this that you would like to hear more about,

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Speaker 2: please let us know. You can email us at Hello

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Speaker 2: at steffanenever told you dot com. You can find us

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Speaker 2: on blue skyt most of a podcast, or on Instagram

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Speaker 2: and TikTok at stuff I never told you. We're also

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Speaker 2: on YouTube. We have some merchandise at comm Bureau, and

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Speaker 2: we have a book you can get wherever you get

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Speaker 2: your books.

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Speaker 1: Thanks as always too, our super projuice Christine are Victor

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Speaker 1: PRIs My and a contributor Joey.

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Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening. Stefan Never

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Speaker 2: Told You Dispecture by Heart Radio. For more podcast from

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Speaker 2: my heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple podcast or where you listen to your favorite shows,