WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 37 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.079 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:28.000 can make your own decisions. Welcome to It could happen here, 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:32.000 the podcast where we spend all of our time talking 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.240 about skincare now personally and a lot of people say 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.720 this is a bad idea. I enjoy using concentrated chlorine 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.120 with a little bit of ammonia. Um, it just cleans 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.559 the pores, It cleans the grout, It gets all of 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.760 that pesky code out of your lungs. Um. You know. 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.880 An entire generation of British and German and French boys 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:59.120 all agree chlorine gas does the trick. How are we doing? 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.200 What's this episode about? Hi? Welcome Welcome to It could 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.920 happen here? A podcasting about things falling apart and how 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.360 we can maybe put them back together. I'm garrison, Um, 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.400 I'll be I'll be leading leading this swed um with 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.200 me is is is Chris? And uh this this random 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.920 person that we brought on from the street named Robert 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:26.400 Um and we'll be talking about some things that are 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:31.800 not great and kind of current problems. So I I 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.160 spent I spent a lot of my formative youth lurking, 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:37.920 studying and kind of documenting some of the some of 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:39.880 some of the bad places on the internet, you know, 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.679 Nazi chat rooms, chance sites, Facebook, hate group you know whatever, 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.240 all all of all the things, um. And you know, 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.560 growing up in Portland, Oregon in like the twenty teens, 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:53.760 this was this was something that felt kind of foisted 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.000 upon me as as a kid discovering my own queerness 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:02.280 and coming out of an extremely homophobic, like insular Christian community. Um. 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.120 Meanwhile in Portland having you know, self described fascist march 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.079 alongside gay hating Christians on my city streets, Nazis murdering 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.120 people on our public transit. You know that. Uh, that 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:18.840 that that that put a lot of fellow fellow scrawny 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.799 gay kids, uh to put on black black hoodies and 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:25.520 balla lavas to mason fight far right extremists that were 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.040 like two or three times their size. Um. But the 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.640 problem is, of course what what what one dred pound 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.240 Depressed teens aren't aren't necessarily the best brawlers, um under 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.240 under some circumstances, although they can handle uh the fire 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:44.200 extinguisher filled with paint pretty well. That's true. But a 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.600 lot of us also started doing like online research and 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.720 stuff um to find like the names and dresses of 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.280 like fascists and members of hate groups and all all 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.200 that kind of all that kind of stuff. I still 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.959 remember the kind of the the thrill and the buzz 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.880 of my first like big find as as a as 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.600 a baby online lurker. Um it was I think it was. 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.640 It was the leader of the hell shaking Street Preachers 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.880 who was living at the time, fucking prick that that was. 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.480 That was the first guy I did UM. And I 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:17.920 remember being very excited being because yeah he was he 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:22.640 was a massive asshole of so yeah, he's he's like 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.840 a you know, very extremely homophobics quote unquote street preacher, 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.560 just a big old show. Yeah. But a lot of 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.000 like this, like online research work wasn't wasn't just crush 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.320 referencing social media posts with the White Pages, property records 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.520 and voter registrations to send nice postcards to hate group members. UH. 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.560 Time was often spent tracking the use of like memes 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:48.480 and cataloging and sharing fascists plans for projects and events, 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.000 keeping keeping tabs on like their current propaganda trends that 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.240 online white supremacists were. We're trying to we're trying to 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:59.520 push and UM. One of one of the things that 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.120 I came across about about two years ago was called 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.520 Operation Pridefall. This was this is one of the one 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.160 of the one of one of these like. It was 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:14.640 an organized campaign ran by people on Fortune, Discord, and Telegram. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.760 I I came across it a few a few days 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:20.600 after the the plans were published online. And if you 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:22.960 already know what Operation Pride Fall is or or heard 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.919 that term before, UH. And if you're you know, like me, 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.479 and we're on similar online spaces, you've you've probably found 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.799 the past few months of antiqueer propaganda. The massive increase 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:37.200 in the gay and transpeople are groomership and the shutters 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.760 can get pride discourse to be all very very predictable, 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.880 a strangely familiar, like the worst case of deja vu, 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.839 and in large part of the result of years of 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:53.720 work behind the scenes by social engineering online bigoted trolls 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:56.840 and self described fascists. So we're gonna we're gonna talk 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.960 today about kind of the overlap between this this thing 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.839 called Operation pridefall uh, the Groomer discourse and how that 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.520 kind of feeds into kink It Pride discourse. So three 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.720 things that are not great, that don't go great but 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:17.960 actually do kind of go great together. So a first, 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.159 first of all, a little a little background on the 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.599 whole recent Groomer thing, because we haven't actually discussed the 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.440 Groomer stuff in depth on the pod yet. Sure haven't 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:35.640 you know why we haven't. I'd be like, whenever like 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.119 horrible things happen in the news, I try to push 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.839 back on just releasing an episode immediately covering it in 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.440 case we have something like actually good to say. Um. 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.720 So we've kind of waited to talk about the group 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.120 of discourse stuff for a long time. UM, And I 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.360 think now is is totally is totally fine to do 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.800 so because we've had we've had months to let it 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:59.839 to let it simmer. Look at like the types of 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:03.600 things they're encouraging, look at all of like the physical 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.320 action they're trying to do, and with Pride Month approaching, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:08.839 we're going to see a resurgence of it in the 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:14.160 next few weeks here. Um So, as mentioned in our 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.359 in our week long War on Transpeople episodes which was 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.680 released like right before the new wave of the groomer 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:24.640 ship accelerated, but in those episodes, we talked about the 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:28.840 long history of conservatives and evangelical organizations promoting the false 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:33.359 narrative targeted at parents and like concerned citizens that gay people, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.280 especially gay men, are more likely to be child predators 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:41.599 than their heterosexual counterparts, along with the idea that queer 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:45.920 people are out to quote groom you're definitely on straight 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:50.000 child into being gay, right, uh so in insinuating that 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:51.760 that that they can then like have sex with them 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.600 or something. Um, it's but yeah, they're trying to scare 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:56.600 parents to be like gay people are out to get 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:03.560 your kids. Um So, the actual like idea of what 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.480 being a groomer means changes based on who you're talking to. Um. 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:08.920 In part two, I'm gonna going to quote a conservative 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.720 writer who like admits this as as such, but still 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.560 defends the use of the term um Because at the 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.280 very least, if they used grooming within the context of 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:23.200 turning your again absolutely completely heterosexual child um into a 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.680 gay person. Thus they would, you know, begin to hate 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.960 you and resent you as a parent for your godly 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:32.320 Christian values. They also consider that grooming. Um, it's not, 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.320 it's not, it's not. Actually, just as a general rule, 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.280 the attitude is if they do not turn out to 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.680 be the exact kind of weirdo Christian as their parents, 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.160 they were groomed by somebody, and it's merely a matter 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.040 of picking the topic of the person to blame. Yeah, 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.640 And all of that sort of rhetoric was extremely popular 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.640 through like the eighties and nineties and the early two thousand's. Um. 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.360 But then came the knots in the twenty teens and 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.600 this this this kind of had an attitude shift and 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:00.480 some of that started to go away. Got we got 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.120 a queer eye, we got ellen uh. The rate of 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:07.160 conversion therapy started to decline. It was getting banned in 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.480 more states. There was more queer acceptance in certain in 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:13.400 certain sects of the church. Even of course gay marriage 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:19.560 went national in and eventually being like aggressively homophobic became 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.240 like not a good look. It did. It was not 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.400 you were not able to do that anymore, um, and 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.360 still be able to have and and and and do 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:32.880 it as like nonchalantly as you were as you used 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.000 to be able to, whether that's in your like TV show, 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.160 or whether that's you as a corporation UM, or you know, 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.600 some random other sectors of public life. But then, of 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.400 course Trump got elected year after gay marriage went national, 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.760 and then there's this resurgence in far right extremism, and 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.760 the more commonly accepted kind of nonchalant gay bashing of 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.720 old gets passed down to the next freak down the line, 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.760 which is trans people. So with that, the the adage 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.160 of like the disgusting groomer freaks are going to turn 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:06.040 your kids gay turns into the gender ideology freaks are 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:08.800 going to turn your kids trans. It's all the same stuff, 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.160 just passed on to the next to the next thing, um. 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.400 And so we have that like anti trans and therefore 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.880 anti queer hate festering for a few years, And this 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:23.439 inevitably opens up the door just a revival of classic homophobia. Um. 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.280 Even even liberals like Front of the Pot at J. K. 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.440 Rowling um and lots of the original Turfs got to 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:33.520 apply the same homophobic rhetoric to trans people, um and 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.520 gender nonconforming folks, which then obviously results in that propaganda 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.040 and rhetoric being used to attack LGBTQ people on a 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.920 whole once again. So it's it's resurrecting these old homophobic 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.360 tropes and just applying it to a new generation of 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:50.600 queer people. Um and uh So for this next part, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:52.880 we're gonna we're not gonna talk about lives of TikTok 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.760 because they did play a big, big part in what's 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.440 what's some current discourses today? And I promise we'll get 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.560 to operation I'd fall here shortly, just just hanging there 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.320 with me. But before we talk about again, other friend 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.800 of the pod, lives of TikTok Um, do you know 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.640 what else it wants to turn your kids gay? Oh? 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:17.280 Are you talking about the Washington State Highway Patrol? Because yes, 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:22.280 they absolutely do, Garrison. That's the one guarantee the Washington 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:26.640 State Highway Patrol makes. They'll make your kids gay. Okay, 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:31.480 Lives of TikTok joins the fight today, And I let's 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.760 just take a moment to acknowledge how fucking frustrating it 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:39.120 is that we have to discuss seriously TikTok that matters, 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:44.319 like the worst. It's terrible. It's terrible. People always criticize 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.160 the show for being like why do they talk about 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.760 all these dumb social media things? So like, yes, I 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.360 know that they're stupid, but the bad part is that 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.160 they actually matter. Yeah, I mean maybe, Yeah, we talk 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.960 about them because of the seventeen year old trans girl 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.680 in Texas who just got assaulted by like five dudes. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.440 Is she was blamed on the shooting, and she was 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.560 blamed for the shooting because in part of a lot 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.400 of ship that Lives of TikTok helped to stir stir up, 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.320 but because they proved there was a market for it 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.679 that if you're like a right wing shit grifter, attacking 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.920 trans people is a great way to get an engagement anyway, Sorry, Garrison. Yeah, So, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.839 Lives of TikTok is a social media account turned to 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:26.360 social media campaign started in April one by a Brooklyn 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.600 area real estate agent named Chaia Chickum, who, by the way, 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:35.240 attended the January six attempted fascist insurrection. Um when when 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.840 when violence broke out that day at the Capitol, she 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.480 actually tweeted a play by play on a previous Twitter 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.800 account of hers uh, posting videos from the crowd and 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.439 talking about tear gas and rubber bullets being like shot 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.800 right next to her um. And then after she left 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:53.960 the riot, she she tweeted on Twitter that that the 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:56.959 the event was peaceful compared to a BLM protest. So 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:03.040 that's yes, anyway, five five people died. You know, we 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.079 we've we've we've now reached the part of we're now 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.840 in tragedy of as farce of the thing that happens 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:11.199 in every single state that goes fascist, where all the 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:12.679 fascists trying to do a coup and it fails and 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:14.680 then nothing happens and then they take over the state. 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.559 Like seriously, our version of that instead of like, I 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.679 don't know, weird fascist yakuza guys, it's the libs of TikTok. 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.960 It is the limbs of TikTok. So the Limbs of 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:30.160 TikTok was around like the third attempt by right check 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.120 to start a vital social media account. Uh, you know, 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.720 the saying third times the charm, but in this case 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.920 it actually was. So the account's gimmick is reposting and 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:46.800 often grossly misrepresenting select clips from quote unquote libs on TikTok, 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:52.000 big big shocker, big big surprise. Uh, But more often 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.720 than not, that really just means posting videos of queer 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:59.880 kids and transpeople, uh, captioning it with something reactionary, and 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:04.800 then leading a targeted harassment campaign against those individuals. On 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.800 on May thirty one, so just about a year ago, 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.600 she made her first grooming related post, just tweeting stop 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.160 grooming kids and all caps. This is the first time 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.000 she tweeted anything related to grooming. Um. The day before that, 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:24.480 she tweeted a video of a transperson um alongside the 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.240 vomit emoji and a caption that just says men should 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.280 not wear dresses. You can't change my mind. Her first 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:35.360 super viral video related to LGBTQ people was later in 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:39.480 June next month during Pride, by posting a TikTok of 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.400 a kid explaining the concept of gender fluidity. Pretty pretty 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.960 basic concept, uh, but she lives lives a TikTok commented 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.760 this is so messed up in so many ways. Her 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.880 Her post racked up half a million views and indicated 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.280 to her that the way to grow her little social 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.720 media project into a right wing viral sensation was going 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.680 to be with homophobia and transphobia. Uh that this is 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:07.480 how she decided to continue her online career. Essentially, she 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.640 called the prominent lgbt Q youth suicide prevention group the 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:16.240 Trevor Project a grooming organization, and towards the end of 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:22.680 two she kept using that term grooming groomer uh at 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.360 a at an ever increasing rate. Right It's it starts 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.600 starts in like May and June, continues throughout the summer 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:31.920 and fall, and then in the fall and winter she 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.440 starts really kicking up all of the stuff around around 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.680 grooming and queer people. I mean, all of her posts 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.560 are already mostly about trans people and like trans people 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.400 at schools. Obviously she was a big part of like 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.280 the the whole school board thing from last year. So, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.560 but towards the end one though, is when the groomer 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.400 thing started becoming more of a recurring trend. Quoting quoting 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.280 slate uh. Towards the end of one and into the 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.560 new year, right check found her rhythm with memes and 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.640 videos calling LGBTQ people and those who supported l g 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.040 b t Q youth quote unquote groomers. She has even 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.240 attempted to smear one of the most prominent gay men 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.120 in the country as a groomer. In a deleted tweet, 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:18.000 right checks account accused Transportation Secretary Secretary Pete Bud's husband Chastin, 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.720 of grooming kids for his work at at supporting lgbt 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:26.280 Q youth organizations. This isn't fair. But I hate that 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.080 his name is Chastin. I know, I don't like I 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.560 don't like that name. I don't like that name. I'm 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.760 not a big I'm not a Chaston's stand either, but 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.280 but but yeah, it's like finding the most prominent libby 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.160 gay men and being like, hey, these people probably groom kids, 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.000 and you know that that obviously riles up their base. Um. 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.200 She's she's called for any teacher who comes out as 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.720 gay to their students to be quote fired on the spot. Uh, 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.720 which actually has happened since then. Uh has has has 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.280 been multiple times since since since this account has been 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.720 has been launched. Um. The account's popularity grew alongside last 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.680 year's racist, homophobic, and transphobic attacks on school boards across 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.120 the country. She would often posting videos of queer teachers 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.280 and lying about them grooming kids into being gay or whatever. 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.560 She was promoting organized harassment campaigns against those teachers, uh, 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.400 interspersed with tweets and screenshots of news articles about teachers 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:32.400 who sexually assaulted students, importantly not posting the article, but 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.000 just like a screenshot of the headline, along with comments 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.480 like funny, how this keeps happening, which is like neglects 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:43.120 to mention that, like all these incidents are from heterosexual teachers, uh, 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.160 or like that one story from last year of a 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.000 cop and his wife who was a teacher working together 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.840 to sexually abuse children, Like none of them are actually 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:56.480 about gay people. It's all. I mean, I'm not certain 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.920 if a school resource officer has ever stopped a mass shooting, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:01.960 but I know that something like fifty of them have 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:06.840 been fired from a lesting kids. Yeah. It's it's it's 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.719 it's really it's really insidious because she's she's posting all 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.000 the stuff about you know, teachers grooming kids, uh, you know, 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:17.240 and into being like queer teachers grooming kids, like alongside 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:22.240 headlines of teachers actually like sexually sexually assaulting kids. But 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.359 those headlines are all of stories about heterosexual teachers. Like 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.359 but you know, so she posts both of those things. 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:33.159 So it's like to like to have this correlation for 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.200 her audience, despite them not actually being related, because yeah, 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.800 Lips of TikTok shore ain't posting about how cops should 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.000 be kept away from kids for the safety of the children. Um, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:44.720 they're they're they're They're never going to post about how 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.000 many people who grooping stuff have been arrested because like 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.240 several of the organizers of of of this whole like 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.800 gave people like grooming kids things like, have been arrested 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:59.320 for child abuse since this started. Which yeah, no it's not, 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.000 it's never it's ever gonna matter, but you know, posting 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.520 and lying about queer teachers grooming children next to headlines 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.920 about teachers sexually abusing kids to manufacture this correlation, which 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.560 is of course false, but it's still highly effective. Now. 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.400 Believe me, I would love to not talk about Twitter nonsense, 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.480 but unfortunately to Witter, accounts like Lips of TikTok actually 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:21.320 do play a massive role in shaping offline conservative politics. 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.439 Lips of TikTok was very soon being interviewed by New 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.200 York Post, being boosted by Joe Rogan going on Tucker Carlson. 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.560 Other Fox News hosts like Jesse Waters began featuring content 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.560 straight from the lips of TikTok twitter feed uh, and 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.639 Tucker encouraged his viewers to follow the account before it's 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.040 a band if you want to know quote what may 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:45.040 be happening in your child's school lass March, when Lives 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.920 of TikTok posted the video of a woman teaching sex 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.120 ed to kids in Kentucky like you know, preteens or whatever, 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.960 she called the woman a predator. In the next evening, 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.320 the same clip was featured on Laura Ingram's Fox News program, 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.080 with the host saying, when did our school, any of 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:05.120 any schools become essential become what are essentially grooming centers 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.399 for a gender identity radicals. Um so, yeah, this is 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.280 the content straight from Liza TikTok being put onto the 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.920 most watched news programs in the world. Um and as 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.840 we'll see, also being taken in by some of the 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:23.680 most powerful conservative politicians. Mainstream conservative politicians quickly joined in 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.639 in the tuting of the lips of TikTok grooming horn. Uh. 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.200 Obviously around as Santis is a big, big part of this. 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.119 Of one of Florida Governor Rhoda Santis's top aids and 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.400 press secretary is a huge fan of Lips of TikTok 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.359 Um and is in frequent communication with them. Quoting the 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.960 Washington Post quote by March two, lips of TikTok was 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:51.919 directly impacting legislation. Rhonda Santiss. Press Secretary Christina Pershaw credited 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.719 the account with quote opening her eyes and informing her 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.040 views on the state's restrictive legislation that bands discussion of 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.919 sexuality or gender identity in kindergarten through third grade. Referred 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.240 to critics as they don't say gay bill. The bill 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.879 has been unquote. So this bill has has already been 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.879 used to get middle school teachers fired for for for 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.760 saying that they are not straight. Um. And you'll notice 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.920 that middle school is not in kindergarten through third grade. 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.200 Uh So, remember when we were all saying, hey, the 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.479 actually it actually doesn't matter that the bill says it's 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.320 only up for kindergarten through third grade. It's just gonna 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.240 be applied for anyone. Yeah, it turns out we were right. 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.600 Uh So it's this. The bill has already been specifically 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.520 cited in the firing of multiple teachers from Florida for 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:43.640 for just not not you know, conforming to the heterosexual 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:48.480 Christian hegemonic worldview, and lips of TikTok is still currently 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.960 among the most prominent influencers, affecting actual material conditions and 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:57.720 shaping both the rhetoric and propaganda while impacting legislation. UM 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.879 friend of lips of tick talk and descentences, Press Secretary 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.679 Christina Preshaw has said, quote the bill that liberals inaccurately 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.560 called Don't Say Gay would be more accurately described as 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:12.560 an anti grooming bill. If you're against the anti grooming bill, 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:15.480 you probably are a groomer, or at least you don't 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.600 denounce the grooming of four to eight year old children. 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:23.680 Silence is complicncy. This is how it works, democrats. This 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.439 is how it works democrats. And I didn't make the rules. 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.919 So yeah, see you see how we have. See how 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:32.400 that works. You called you called the dope Say Gay 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.399 bill a anti grooming bill, so than everyone anyone who 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:37.760 criticizes it is now a groomer? Is it? Is it 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.000 that a fun way to play with words? Isn't that nice? 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:42.360 That is a fun way to play with words? Garrison 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.440 love it. So the past few months we've seen this. 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:50.000 You know, queer people are groomers meme reach seemingly never 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.960 never before seen heights, and uh at least is and 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:55.639 at the very least is the highest and most me 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.760 medic has ever been in the past two decades. You know, 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:01.240 It's it's really building off of all of the Killer 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.320 Local pedophile ship, right it sure is. It's it's the 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.800 Robert do you want to briefly, briefly talk about Killer Local. 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:09.720 I mean, it's a bunch of bumper stickers. It's a 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:12.399 slogan like I know dudes who are not at all 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.359 fascists and say that because they're like New Dad's and 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.399 they're horrified at the But like the whole, like the 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:22.520 core of it is this right wing and it kind 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:24.840 of started off in like the sort of libertarian gun 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.119 nut communities. But it's it's, it's it's really used a 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.239 lot as sort of it's a group that you can 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.160 talk about doing anything too. You can talk about killing, 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.679 you can like fetishize murdering um. And if you can 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:43.159 then like define other groups as inherently pedophilic, then you 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.200 can do anything to them, right Like, that's the basic 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:47.879 idea is if you can get people saying it's always 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:51.879 okay to use vigilante violence against this group. Um, and 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.480 obviously no one's gonna defend child molesters. But then you 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:57.920 start making the case that people who are not in 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.840 fact molesting children are somehow pedop files or you know, 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.640 or somehow related to pedophiles, and then suddenly it's okay 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.280 to kill them. It's okay to massive social groups like 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:09.960 all of gay and trans people. So if you conflate 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:12.280 these two things are able to make these things represent 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.840 the same thing in someone's mind that makes homophobia now 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:18.600 not a bad thing, but like a moral imperative, like 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.400 you have to be homophobic because these people are grooming children, yep, 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:25.119 And you can get you get this interesting thing to 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:30.119 which like there are people who are like not quite 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:33.680 as far in who will do who will say? I 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.240 see things a lot where it's like someone's like, oh, well, 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:37.680 I don't have a problem with gay people, but like 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:43.000 they shouldn't groom kids, And it's like this is that's 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:47.359 not what's happening, bro, Yeah no, do you know do 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:50.760 you know what else doesn't groom kids? I mean, the 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:55.920 Washington States definitely does. But let me tell you, if 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:59.760 you want somebody to groom your children, the Washington Highways 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:01.960 State Highway Patrol will do that. But you know what 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:04.880 they won't do is protect those children in the event 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.240 of danger because that might endanger them. So look, look, 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:12.280 sometimes sometimes right someone who's someone who's killing your kid 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:15.720 and you need to get pepper sprayed, and when that 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.960 time calls you, you will beg for the Washington Highway 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:22.960 State Patrol. Well, you'll beg for a different police department. 0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:25.840 But when those police get in trouble because of their 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:28.679 failure to act, than the Washington State Highway Patrol will 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.600 show up to protect those cops. Anyway, here's here's the bads. 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:36.240 We're back. Um. So as the queer people are Groomer's 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.280 ship was reaching the most memetic and the highest rate 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.800 of of of trending that it's has had in decades 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:46.520 this past April, at the height of the recent increased 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:50.800 wave of antiqueer legislation and anti lgbt Q rhetoric. Um. 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:55.000 This this is when some terminally online teenagers tried to 0:24:55.040 --> 0:25:00.040 start kin get pride discourse once again. And I do 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:02.639 not want to talk about this, but I've written stuff 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:06.680 about it, so I'm going to this Legitimately, what I 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:08.920 was like thinking about I realized I was gay, and 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:10.280 I was like, oh my god, I should come out. 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:12.320 And then I would like. One of the things that 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:14.119 I spent a long time thinking about was does this 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:16.200 mean I have to do can't get pride discourse? And 0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:20.200 for a long time I would have said no, of 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:24.000 course not, I'm never going to do this. Well, but 0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:30.040 here we are, so anyway, uh doing kick doing kink 0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:33.600 get pride discourse? Uh? Then, and even still now, while 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.640 the antiqueer onslaught is accelerating at the highest pace it's 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:39.400 had in years, sure seems to be like dumping fuel 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:43.120 on the fire. Uh what's up with that? Kids? Why? 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:48.320 So anyway? Uh, the discourse itself revolves around whether kink 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:53.800 apparel or paraphernalia render the pride space unsafe for minors 0:25:53.960 --> 0:26:00.000 or quote unquote non consensual observers. Uh heavy heavy quotation 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.240 marks there by the way. Uh. But also it is 0:26:03.400 --> 0:26:07.680 heavily rooted in assimilationist and respectability politics and a push 0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:12.000 for LGBTQ people to be seen as more acceptable or 0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:16.920 more normal while still existing in a heteronormative society. Um. 0:26:17.720 --> 0:26:19.439 And now, obviously I'm not a fan of this discourse 0:26:19.480 --> 0:26:21.920 happening in the first place, especially now, like why are 0:26:21.960 --> 0:26:24.560 you doing it now? During all the groomer stuff. Stop it, 0:26:24.800 --> 0:26:27.639 that's stop it, don't do that, quit it? Why are 0:26:27.640 --> 0:26:29.840 you doing this? Uh? But first of all, I also 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:33.320 want to point out how this entire discourse runs on 0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:37.159 the same train of thought that fuels all of the 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:40.000 groomer stuff in their first place. It's it's it's picking 0:26:40.080 --> 0:26:45.240 at the same part of human brains. So here's I'm 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:48.000 going to read this post that went super vital about 0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:51.000 a month ago, that that's sparked, that sparked the new 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:56.280 wave of this uh much much frustrated discourse. Quote l 0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.000 g B t Q, youth being uncomfortable with kinks at 0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:02.159 Pride is not homophobia. Kin set Pride might have been 0:27:02.240 --> 0:27:05.960 fine if this was still the nineteen hundreds or adults 0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:08.159 were the only ones attending Pride, but it's not the 0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:11.479 nineteen hundreds anymore, and now kids are way more involved 0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:16.400 in celebrating our identities. The celebrating our identities part there 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:19.600 is really important, and we'll we'll talk about this more soon, 0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:23.520 but look, largely in the past like twenty years, there's 0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:27.320 been this shift with queerness and sexual orientation being less 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:30.800 about who you fuck and more like a personality aspect 0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:35.040 or a social identity with a branded aesthetic. Um, it's 0:27:35.119 --> 0:27:38.520 it's this, it's like it's it's which is in some 0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:40.760 ways good, like in some ways good that people are 0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:44.159 more able to express themselves however they want. But you know, 0:27:44.440 --> 0:27:47.080 kids at school aren't getting bullied for being gay anymore, 0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:51.520 which again is good, less than they were. They're they're 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:55.480 getting bullied less somewhat depending on where you live. But 0:27:55.640 --> 0:28:01.520 it's also kind of it's made people forget the whole like, uh, 0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:06.200 like gaze bash back or gaze don't bash back, but 0:28:06.280 --> 0:28:09.080 shoot first. Like it's forgot, we don't have that. That's 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:12.080 not as a core component of queerness anymore because queerness 0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:15.399 is now able to be kind of more safe and sanitized. Uh. 0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:18.080 And it's it's a right, it's like it's and it's 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:20.639 it's it's a personal identity in a way that it's 0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:22.920 not it's not just about who you fuck anymore. It's 0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:25.800 like this like personal identity aspect um, which I'm not 0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:27.720 saying is bad. It's just that there's this thing that's 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:32.480 happened that's changed the way we talk about sexual orientation. Hey, 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:36.000 quick pause, This is Garrison from the future here, just 0:28:36.200 --> 0:28:38.680 popping in to clarify a bit on what I mean 0:28:39.280 --> 0:28:44.800 regarding this note on identities and identifying as various shades 0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:48.640 of queer. What I'm getting at is that when observing 0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:51.280 some of the baby queers around my age or maybe 0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:55.720 a bit younger, queerness is seen as a more available 0:28:55.760 --> 0:28:59.440 option for young people when putting together their personality or 0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:02.920 sense of self, and more separated from the nitty gritty 0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:06.600 details of who you fuck. Now that queerness is generally 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:10.000 more tolerated. Now, don't get me wrong, I do like 0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:14.680 the idea of being free to choose queerness. In many ways, 0:29:14.720 --> 0:29:18.520 I consider myself as having chosen to be gay. The 0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:21.360 thing about framing that as your quote unquote personal identity 0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:25.080 as opposed to simply choosing to be what you are, 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:28.760 is that the former lets you wield that quote unquote 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:33.200 identity against other people or other queer people that disagree 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:37.280 with you. It's it's this thing where queerness is filtered 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:41.920 through the lens of brands and like brand recognition, which 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:46.920 is definitely made worse by social media, dating apps, personal profiles, 0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:51.080 and personal bios. And it's part of this cultural push 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:55.760 to like have everyone create their own personal brand, and like, 0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:00.640 I don't want to identify as gender queer, I just 0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:05.440 am gender queer. I don't identify as gay. I just 0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:09.320 like catboys. Therefore I am gay. It's a different ontological 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:12.440 framing and one that I think is less susceptible to 0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:17.520 heteronormative assimilationist ideas, and like the capitalist marketing to queerness 0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:21.640 as a brand or as a market demographic. If your 0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:27.360 queerness is a personal identity that's more sanitized, more approachable 0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:30.440 for a heateronormative society, then you get to use your 0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:34.440 identity to attack gay people whose queerness is more based 0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:39.440 in deviant sexuality and alternative communities. I'm gonna I'm gonna 0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:41.960 read the the follow up tweet to this, to this 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:45.560 thing that sparked the new discourse quote. Not even all 0:30:45.720 --> 0:30:48.720 lgbt Q adults are comfortable with seeing kings at Pride. 0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:52.520 There's nothing from there's nothing stopping you guys from adjusting 0:30:52.600 --> 0:30:55.560 or having after events strictly for adults when they're partaken 0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:58.560 that y'all need to adjust that every lgbt Q person 0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:03.640 feels comfortable attending. So let's let's just do some like 0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:06.800 queer history here for a second. The first Pride was 0:31:06.840 --> 0:31:09.680 a riot um on on on on that night in 0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:13.080 June in the nineteen sixty nine nice Uh, the police 0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:17.360 raided the Stonewall in, one of the largest private private 0:31:17.400 --> 0:31:20.080 gate clubs in the US at the time. The patrons 0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:22.720 of the bar, you know, trans women of color, homeless, 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:27.320 queer teens, drag queens, lesbians, and leather daddies fought back 0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:31.720 lots of trans teenagers through bricks at cops and like 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:35.880 a fair number of those trans teenagers were also sex workers. Uh. 0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:40.840 Kink including you know, like leather daddies, and lots of 0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:43.160 aspects that are we now views as like kink or 0:31:43.240 --> 0:31:45.080 b d s M has been a part of Pride 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:48.720 since it's literal inception, like way back in nineteen sixty nine. 0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:53.160 Um And while like, while drag isn't considered king now 0:31:53.240 --> 0:31:56.720 in two it still is considered it's actually deviant. But 0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:00.320 back in like the twentieth century, uh in in nine, 0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:03.920 you know, in nine, New York City still had laws 0:32:04.000 --> 0:32:07.440 that prohibited cross dressing, So drag used to be way 0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:11.920 more kinky than it is now. Uh. And like basically 0:32:12.000 --> 0:32:16.520 all queer sex used to be unacceptable kink. It was 0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:21.000 literally a crime. It was a crime in Texas until, like, 0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:24.960 do you like? I think right around when I graduated 0:32:25.040 --> 0:32:27.800 high school two thousand three was when the Supreme Court also, 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:34.360 it's no longer an enforceable laws and it's illegal. It's 0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:38.320 still illegal to own more than five dildos. Yeah, I 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:40.440 think it's five, but it might be six. So, like 0:32:40.600 --> 0:32:43.720 all queer sex used to be unacceptable, kink and many 0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:47.280 logistical aspects of gay fucking used to happen in public. 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:50.680 I'm gonna I'm gonna quote an article from them dot 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:54.640 us quote. For some people, gay rights and gay liberation 0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:58.720 do not hinge on particulars of sexual desire. For years, 0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:02.280 I've heard that we aren't just our irotic identities, but 0:33:02.480 --> 0:33:04.680 for many of us, it does begin there, and it 0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:08.960 does revolve around the ways we organize our erotic choices. 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:13.240 Before lgbt Q plus people had pride parades, our community 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:18.080 spaces were not just bars, but cruising spots like bathhouses, dungeons, 0:33:18.320 --> 0:33:21.760 and public restrooms. It should be no surprise that many 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:24.320 queer folks find their sex lives and their sense of 0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:28.880 community to be intertwined. B D s M. Subversive sexuality 0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:32.080 and leather culture have enjoyed a long history within the 0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:36.800 lgbt Q rights movement. They are inherent expressions of queer 0:33:36.920 --> 0:33:40.720 culture and sexuality. Being free to signal your sexuality out 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:43.520 in the open within a queer context is the entire 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:48.600 point of pride unquote. So, like all of this discourse 0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:52.120 around pride and kink, it pride reflects a modern but 0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:58.320 regressive idea that sexuality is inherently damaging to see, experience, 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:01.320 or think about in a public con text, especially if 0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:05.520 that sexuality is inherently queer. And there's this other idea 0:34:05.600 --> 0:34:08.680 that we see a lot of in this type of discourse, 0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:10.680 and it's mirrored a little bit with like the groomer 0:34:10.719 --> 0:34:15.560 stuff too, that if you see someone quote unquote engaging 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:17.879 in kink, and like in the case of pride, that's 0:34:17.920 --> 0:34:20.799 like what wearing a collar, harness or a pop mask, 0:34:21.239 --> 0:34:25.840 that just the act of observation is somehow a violation 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:32.279 of consent. And it's really frustrating because indication of sexuality 0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:36.080 in a non vanilla sense while in public is not 0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:40.320 a violation of consent. Like I didn't consent quote unquote 0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:45.799 consent to see the rainbow cops, right, But public indication 0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:49.919 of sexuality is not a consent of violation. And again, 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:55.279 indicating sexuality is like the entire point of pride. Weaponizing 0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:58.719 quote unquote consent to call out people that we see 0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:02.239 but don't interact with, who are quote unquote dressed too 0:35:02.360 --> 0:35:06.120 sexual in our own mind is bad for multiple reasons. 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:11.040 It also potentially dilutes legitimate claims of non consent in 0:35:11.160 --> 0:35:15.200 cases of actual sexual violence. And it's it's like this 0:35:15.360 --> 0:35:17.359 thing like if you look at someone in a pup mask, 0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:20.920 there is no consent violation there. That's a really weird 0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:23.000 thing that people that people talk about, and it's not 0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:26.400 It's not like I'm not trying to start fights on 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:31.480 the internet with like these tender queer children, um, because 0:35:31.600 --> 0:35:33.759 like and I I don't want anyone to find like these, 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.879 like you know, months old posts and start harassing these people. 0:35:37.239 --> 0:35:39.800 But that post has like over thirty thousand likes and 0:35:39.880 --> 0:35:43.040 thousands and thousands and thousands of retweets, and it basically 0:35:43.160 --> 0:35:46.840 just repeats like old queer bashing talking points that conflate 0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:50.800 kink and queer visibility with public sex that endangerous children, 0:35:51.239 --> 0:35:55.880 and like conflating gays being visible and semi clothed with 0:35:56.480 --> 0:35:59.400 being like dangerous to children are the same talking points 0:35:59.440 --> 0:36:01.800 that it gets you used for book bands conversion therapy, 0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:04.080 and they don't say gay bills. Right. This idea that 0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:08.000 if you look at a gay person shirtless that's dangerous 0:36:08.080 --> 0:36:10.960 to a kid, that's the same, that's the same underlying 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:15.000 motivation that fuels all of the screwbery discourse. Uh, it's 0:36:15.000 --> 0:36:17.040 it's it's the whole thing where it's like, I'm okay 0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:19.040 with gay people, I just don't want to see it. Right, 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:21.320 It's like that that that that idea in and of 0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:25.400 itself is like is still like exists on that you know, 0:36:26.239 --> 0:36:28.759 I didn't consent to look at it type of thing. 0:36:29.320 --> 0:36:32.400 You know. This This is other other tweet from somebody 0:36:32.440 --> 0:36:35.040 being like forcing people to see kicky stuff without consent 0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:37.479 is really weird. I'm sorry, but I don't want pop 0:36:37.520 --> 0:36:40.319 masks at Pride events for families. I saw that ship 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:42.880 in real life and it made me uncomfortable. Don't involve 0:36:42.960 --> 0:36:44.800 other people in their kinks. I if they don't consent, 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:47.280 and like looking at someone in a mask, it'sn't involving 0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:49.319 you in any of these kinks. You're if you're looking 0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:51.400 at someone in an other mask, Like, if that makes 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:54.239 you uncomfortable, that that's your problem. You don't have a 0:36:54.400 --> 0:36:58.320 right to not be uncomfortable with how people look or 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:00.759 are in public. Look, every time I go out into 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:03.279 the world, I see something that makes me uncomfortable. Um, 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:05.480 I see a lot of people with children. Now do 0:37:05.640 --> 0:37:07.640 I think it should be legal to have children? Now? 0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:11.760 I do think that it should be. It should be illegal, exactly. 0:37:11.880 --> 0:37:13.880 So I like, look, we all have to deal with 0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:16.880 things that make us uncomfortable. Look like we have a 0:37:16.920 --> 0:37:20.080 clear solution here. The way to deal with events not 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:22.399 being family friendly used to get rid of families. That's 0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:25.000 it's exactly right. We have to eliminate the concept of 0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:28.080 the family. Yeah, come on, come on, come, Communist manifesto? 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:31.279 What this is? One oh one ship people? You were 0:37:31.400 --> 0:37:34.160 you were? You were quoting from the Communist manifesto. Okay, 0:37:34.280 --> 0:37:36.440 that's interesting. That's that's not where I got it from. 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:39.839 But I I feel like I feel like a lot 0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:42.600 of these people, many of them like young teens, who 0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:46.560 are complaining about being forced to look at unquote inappropriate 0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:49.560 things that pride. I've never actually been to a pride 0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:54.399 because most of most of modern pride is like really 0:37:54.520 --> 0:37:57.840 sanitized and chill like it's like it is. It is 0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:02.400 overrun with corporate sponsors, politicians and cops Like you are 0:38:02.560 --> 0:38:04.960 you you are way more likely to see armed police 0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:07.759 at like a Pride march then you're then you'll be 0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:11.200 likely to see like tits or like gags or whatever 0:38:11.440 --> 0:38:15.360 like most It's funny to me because like I started 0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:18.440 going to these and this is before the internet was 0:38:18.520 --> 0:38:20.759 what it was or moral panics were what they were. 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:23.720 But like in Texas, I would go to these events 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:26.280 where there would be people of all ages and families. 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:28.239 These are like little burning regionals. People would be like 0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:31.319 at like on the big night when people are doing 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:33.719 like the fire shows and the firework stuff, people would 0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:37.839 be like fucking and like manning flamethrowers, like while having sex. 0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:39.960 There there were like there was a whole chunk of 0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:41.520 it that was just like the kink row and you 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:43.600 could walk down and watch people get like whipped and 0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:47.440 fuck a sibian and stuff. It was just like I 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:49.800 don't remember any of this fucking. Like the only discourse 0:38:49.920 --> 0:38:52.040 was like, well, okay, we should probably like make sure 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:54.440 that people know where that kind of stuff mainly happens 0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:56.160 so that like they don't have to walk around it 0:38:56.200 --> 0:38:58.080 if they don't want to. But like it was, Yeah, 0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:01.120 it's like this idea that like not even full nudity, 0:39:01.280 --> 0:39:04.360 but like semi nudity within a queer context is inherently 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:07.920 more dangerous to children if it's if it's in a 0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:10.359 queer context than a straight context. Right, we have all 0:39:10.400 --> 0:39:13.560 of these even like queer kids can like complaining online 0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:16.800 about being forced to see things at Pride just like 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:19.040 they would see way more skinned if they went to 0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:23.239 like a beach in the summer. Like it's it's there's 0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:25.680 it revolves on the same homeophoblic idea that like if 0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:27.760 if you look at these things in a queer context 0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:30.719 that is like more adult than it looking at it 0:39:30.920 --> 0:39:39.400 within a straight context. Yes, Um, it's I don't know, frustrating, 0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:42.440 it's frustrating and like another another reason why that I 0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:45.839 think many of these like baby leftist tender queers are 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:48.520 who are who are crusading against kink at Pride and 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:53.359 complaining about like leather and or like sexy underwear. Um, 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:57.040 lots of them even uh, first of all, most of them, 0:39:57.080 --> 0:39:58.560 I think lots of them haven't been to Pride because 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:00.479 there hasn't really been Pride for the past two years, 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:03.359 and lots of these people are like fifteen years old. Um, 0:40:03.920 --> 0:40:06.080 but a lot of them also just like admit to 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:09.320 never be going to Pride because they're too terrified to 0:40:09.360 --> 0:40:12.400 see a pop mask. Like they openly say, like I've 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:14.960 never been because I don't want to see these things. 0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:17.439 Like sure, you're allowed to do that, but then don't 0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:22.680 make don't like, don't campaign against King Pride, which will 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:26.560 result in your posts getting used by like homophobic trolls 0:40:26.600 --> 0:40:30.319 and bigots. I don't because I don't want to see 0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:32.799 a deep dish pizza, but I don't try to ban them, 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:35.759 like I understand that that's the thing you people, like, 0:40:36.160 --> 0:40:38.160 Like the first time I saw pop mask was that 0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:42.120 fucking Comic Con. Like it's like like like it's not 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:45.319 you don't see like band pup masks from comic con, 0:40:45.840 --> 0:40:50.600 Like what Like these these people, like these kids are 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:53.800 are basing their fears off of like a few viral 0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:57.120 photos that are often shared in a disingenuous context. Now, well, 0:40:57.120 --> 0:40:59.400 we'll talk about these photos in a bit, but you know, 0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:01.960 these these people are like fifteen years old, have never 0:41:02.040 --> 0:41:04.960 been to Pride, and are just like simply terrified of 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:10.000 like actual sexuality, like they enjoy, they engage with queerness 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:12.319 is like a personal identity and stuff. But once they 0:41:12.360 --> 0:41:14.239 get into like the nitty gritty of like sex, that 0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:16.640 makes them really uncomfortable because their teens, because their kids 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:19.160 that that's okay. You can be uncomfortable with sex that 0:41:19.440 --> 0:41:22.080 makes sense, that is that it's appropriate for your age. 0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:26.640 But then don't make your entire online presence about trying 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:31.200 to shut down this massive aspect of queer history. Um 0:41:32.160 --> 0:41:34.640 because like the kinky stuff that I've seen at Pride 0:41:35.200 --> 0:41:37.319 is yeah, on par with what you see at Comic Con. 0:41:37.560 --> 0:41:41.000 I often will see more more nudity at Portland's Comic 0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:43.520 Con than I than I will at any of the 0:41:43.560 --> 0:41:46.719 Pride events I've been to. Um, Like all of them 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:50.799 more like openly like fetish folks or kinky folks are 0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:54.960 really responsible and act pretty appropriately at Pride, and and 0:41:55.120 --> 0:41:57.800 the people who like say otherwise online generally just have 0:41:57.920 --> 0:42:00.719 not actually been to Pride in their entire life. Um 0:42:01.680 --> 0:42:05.480 because like this complaining about quote unquote like inappropriate fetishes 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:09.680 or like kinky conduct, it's basically code for I am 0:42:09.880 --> 0:42:13.239 uncomfortable with you being positive about the way you view sex, 0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:15.480 and I want you to not show it, and I 0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:16.800 want you to not and I want you to not 0:42:16.880 --> 0:42:20.240 talk about it, which is the same underlying thought process 0:42:20.320 --> 0:42:22.520 that people use to be homophobic. It's the it's the 0:42:22.560 --> 0:42:26.280 exact same thing. Um. Now, a lot of this discourse 0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:29.880 oversimplifies kink and b D S M. Um. Right, queerness 0:42:29.960 --> 0:42:32.120 can be about it can be about love, it can 0:42:32.160 --> 0:42:35.160 be about it can be about sexual attraction um and 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:40.040 both uh or sometimes for like a sexual people in 0:42:40.520 --> 0:42:43.640 lacking one or the other um or both uh. But 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:46.200 but by that same token, right, kink leatherin b D 0:42:46.360 --> 0:42:49.520 S M aren't all exclusively about sex to a large extent, 0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:52.880 they're also about community building. Um. And I just think 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:56.000 these these like earnest think of the youth arguments are 0:42:56.120 --> 0:42:58.960 very silly because even when it comes to youth, because 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:02.600 if you're uncomfortable things, that's totally fine. But in a 0:43:02.680 --> 0:43:05.840 lot of cases, like queer teenagers also have sex generally 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:09.120 with other career teenagers, sometimes even in a kinky context, 0:43:09.440 --> 0:43:13.560 and that's okay. Pride is about celebrating everyone's individual ability 0:43:14.000 --> 0:43:18.600 to do that. And I don't like it when when 0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:21.560 people just rehash old home of public talking points to 0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:25.400 to especially during during all of this, all of this 0:43:25.440 --> 0:43:30.359 groomer discourse, because a key key part of key part 0:43:30.400 --> 0:43:33.800 of kink, a key part of like queer sex, is consent. 0:43:34.320 --> 0:43:37.200 And once you're start you start complaining what consent is 0:43:37.280 --> 0:43:39.640 by saying that me looking at you wearing a collar 0:43:39.719 --> 0:43:42.040 is a violation of consent. Once you start undermining what 0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:44.640 consent actually means, that's like not a good thing. It's 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:47.160 actually not that is actually a bad thing, especially right 0:43:47.200 --> 0:43:49.640 now during all of the during all of all of 0:43:49.760 --> 0:43:53.359 all of the grimmer stuff. So that is we are 0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:56.680 we've gone kind of over on on time here. Um, 0:43:57.280 --> 0:43:59.600 but we're gonna make We're gonna make this a two parter. 0:43:59.840 --> 0:44:01.800 In the next episode, we'll talk a bit more about 0:44:01.840 --> 0:44:05.360 like tender queers and we'll actually get into the plans 0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:07.600 of Operation Pride Fall and talk about how we kind 0:44:07.600 --> 0:44:10.200 of got to this point because man, there's a lot 0:44:10.239 --> 0:44:13.800 of kids sharing sharing pictures online and oh boy, do 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:18.480 those pictures originate in some dubious, dubious places. Um, So 0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:21.200 that that that does it for us today. We will 0:44:21.280 --> 0:44:25.680 we will see you tomorrow. Um, Pride is fun. We 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:30.520 should not police what other people do. So Yeah, anyway, 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:51.040 Bye bye, Welcome back to get Happen here. This is 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:55.920 part two of our discussion on Operation Pride Fall and 0:44:55.960 --> 0:44:58.360 they kick Get Kick Get Pride discourse and the grimmer 0:44:58.400 --> 0:45:00.880 stuff and how they all combine in the really horrifying, 0:45:01.760 --> 0:45:05.440 really the way that I wish they didn't because it's 0:45:05.680 --> 0:45:09.799 pretty frustrating. So, uh, last episode I talked towards the end, 0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:13.680 I talked to a decent amount about tender queers um, 0:45:14.360 --> 0:45:16.279 and I actually would like would like to define this 0:45:16.440 --> 0:45:19.719 term here um and kind of get into why these 0:45:20.080 --> 0:45:24.440 why these people are boosting these specific like talking points 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:28.720 that are just kind of regurgitate old types of homophobic stuff. 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:32.040 They claim it doesn't, but like it does. You're using 0:45:32.120 --> 0:45:34.360 this exact same logic, you're just kind of reframing it. 0:45:35.000 --> 0:45:37.560 So tender queers are this this the type of like 0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:40.200 there's kind of like an in joke for like the 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:44.320 queer community of this personality type. Generally, the tender queers 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:46.640 are like a you know, typically a gen Z or 0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:50.759 a millennial queer more likely to be like fem, whether 0:45:50.840 --> 0:45:55.560 that be like a woman non binary or fem person lesbians, Uh, 0:45:55.760 --> 0:45:58.800 you know, fem bisexuals, pan sexuals or like queer soft 0:45:58.880 --> 0:46:02.560 boys kind of they feature this like combination of personality 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:07.000 designation an aesthetic, and they're known for being especially adapt 0:46:07.120 --> 0:46:10.560 at using like watery language of therapy as a means 0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:13.440 to like get out of most things. Um Ever, everything's 0:46:13.440 --> 0:46:18.439 about like holding space and healing and intimacy, and it's 0:46:18.480 --> 0:46:23.080 like it's wrapped up in this like jovial pastel bubbly package. Right. 0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:27.080 If you throw in some astrology, some like corturoy overalls, 0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:30.000 shaved heads and round glasses, and you've got yourself like 0:46:30.040 --> 0:46:32.839 a basic tender queer. And a little quote here from 0:46:32.960 --> 0:46:36.920 an author named Daisy Jones from an article that they 0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:40.319 made quote just like the straight soft boy who uses 0:46:40.400 --> 0:46:43.680 performative sensitivity to get away with being a little shit, 0:46:43.840 --> 0:46:48.520 sometimes so does the tender queer. Tender queer generally refers 0:46:48.560 --> 0:46:50.799 to a trope in the queer community of a queer 0:46:50.840 --> 0:46:53.640 person who presents themselves as being sensitive, hyper vocal of 0:46:53.680 --> 0:46:57.879 their feelings, sometimes thought of as prioritizing feelings and hyper 0:46:57.920 --> 0:47:03.120 intentional language over their own harm and privilege. So they 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:07.399 kind of use like identity politics to avoid accountability. There's 0:47:07.440 --> 0:47:12.640 like this um competitive oppression and self victimization. They center 0:47:12.719 --> 0:47:16.080 themselves and their feelings in social or political movements that 0:47:16.080 --> 0:47:19.880 aren't necessarily about them. They kind of they prioritize in 0:47:20.000 --> 0:47:23.640 effective methods of self care. They utilize like gaslighting and 0:47:23.760 --> 0:47:26.280 dumping the emotional labor of dealing with your own self 0:47:27.160 --> 0:47:30.560 onto onto others, like to Tender queers are kind of 0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:35.320 they're they're known to like mask toxicity and manipulativeness in 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:38.800 the performative language and aesthetics of social justice. They have 0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:43.400 this like performative soft hypersensitivity and use identity politics to 0:47:43.520 --> 0:47:46.319 kind of call out or avoid things that make them 0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:49.879 uncomfortable and will like and will publicly declare those things 0:47:49.960 --> 0:47:52.920 as problematic and in an attempt to force others to 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:56.320 conform with their own will. So that's why I describe 0:47:56.360 --> 0:48:00.680 a lot of these like younger younger teens um who 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:04.640 who use these talking points against against quote unquote kink 0:48:04.640 --> 0:48:08.120 at pride as tender queers, because like, they're the people 0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:11.880 who are really sensitive about what makes them comfortable, and 0:48:12.480 --> 0:48:16.360 they avoid any they try to avoid or campaign against 0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:19.359 anything that makes them uncomfortable, and they use all these 0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:23.239 like performative turns of phrase and talking points to to 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:26.960 avoid having actual discussions about it. It's just like weaponization 0:48:27.080 --> 0:48:30.440 of their marginalized identity as a shield to avoid accountability 0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:34.160 or to deflect against people challenging them for abusive behavior 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:37.040 or in in the in the in like the Pride case, 0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:42.479 this like internalized homophobia. Uh there's there's the these little 0:48:42.840 --> 0:48:46.080 little tweet exchange for some from some people on the 0:48:46.239 --> 0:48:49.759 superviral kick a Pride post from a month ago. Um, 0:48:50.040 --> 0:48:52.080 I'm fourteen and I don't want to see a half 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:55.200 naked person in leather straps and a gag and an event. 0:48:55.280 --> 0:48:58.439 I take my family too. And someone replied, like, try 0:48:58.480 --> 0:49:01.359 glancing Eddie Marty Gros or even a public beach before 0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:07.280 you apply homophobic double standards. And then they the poster replied, 0:49:07.800 --> 0:49:12.160 you think I'm homophobic, I'm literally a trans non binary lesbian. 0:49:12.400 --> 0:49:16.320 So again this is this is this is this is 0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:17.920 what I mean when I when when I when I 0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:20.600 talk about title queers. Right, there's someone's calling them out 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:23.920 for applying this homophobic double standard on how they view 0:49:24.080 --> 0:49:27.120 like public semi unity, right, not even like full nunity, 0:49:27.200 --> 0:49:29.520 just like how they view public semi nudity like a 0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:32.799 bikini or something right, and then they respond by saying, 0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:36.920 I'm literally a trans done binary lesbian um and then 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:40.400 went out to say also, people at those don't wear kinkshit, 0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:42.360 and that's why I don't go to Marty Gras or 0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:45.480 large public beaches. It makes me uncomfortable seeing a bunch 0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:49.160 of adults and kinkshit being sexual just physically makes me ill. 0:49:49.640 --> 0:49:52.080 People at Marty Garras and public beaches don't act sexual 0:49:52.239 --> 0:49:59.000 or wear kinkshit, And so like, I feel like you 0:49:59.120 --> 0:50:03.279 haven't been to Marty girls like you will see way 0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:06.560 more skinned at a public beach. Most kicks should require, 0:50:06.640 --> 0:50:09.680 like requires covering your body and a lot of extra stuff, 0:50:10.320 --> 0:50:13.440 Like if you're wearing a harness or like a latex 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:16.920 full leather outfit, you're like showing way less skin than 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:20.799 someone wearing a spido or a bikini. So maybe you're 0:50:20.840 --> 0:50:24.239 just uncomfortable with people expressing their sexuality, which, in case, 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:26.839 don't go to Pride, because that's what Pride is all about. 0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:31.200 That's the entire poot. But yeah, little the whole, Like 0:50:31.360 --> 0:50:34.200 I'm literally a trans non binary lesbian. Like that's like 0:50:34.320 --> 0:50:37.120 such a perfect encapsulation of what the tender queer kind 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:40.000 of trope is um and like not not not not 0:50:40.120 --> 0:50:43.759 Many people like self self identify as as Tinder queer 0:50:43.760 --> 0:50:45.839 as it's kind of this joke that the more kind 0:50:45.880 --> 0:50:49.880 of punky queer community has kind of it's like an 0:50:50.400 --> 0:50:54.080 we're putting a label on this, this behavioral trend that 0:50:54.160 --> 0:50:56.719 we've observed, and it's it's kind of a joke, Right, 0:50:56.719 --> 0:50:58.759 I'm not trying to call out specific people. I'm not. 0:50:59.200 --> 0:51:03.759 If you're soft and emotional sensitive, cool, whatever, do whatever 0:51:03.800 --> 0:51:06.640 you want. I'm fine, Just don't don't use these things 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:11.080 as a shield to justify forcing your will onto other people. 0:51:11.719 --> 0:51:14.600 It's cool to not It's totally fine to like not 0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:19.320 like people being publicly affectionate or like doing public like 0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:22.400 It's perfectly fine to be uncomfortable with that. It's perfectly like. 0:51:22.520 --> 0:51:24.839 That doesn't mean anything bad. It doesn't mean you're a prude, 0:51:24.880 --> 0:51:26.920 it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. But like, 0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:30.719 there's nothing wrong with people wanting to be public with 0:51:30.800 --> 0:51:33.799 that at a public event, celebrating the fact that it's 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:38.879 they are now less oppressed for doing that thing, like yeah, 0:51:39.360 --> 0:51:42.399 or a beach or Mardi Gras, and like, make sure 0:51:42.520 --> 0:51:45.279 you're cognizant if you're engaging in any kind of like 0:51:45.560 --> 0:51:50.600 socially normalized ideas of like straight stuff is inherently less 0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:53.840 sexual than gay stuff, right I always, I mean, I 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:56.200 advocate people being able to like get into their own 0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:58.400 head and figure out why they think certain things like this. 0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:02.319 It's it's this idea of uh meta thought, trying trying 0:52:02.360 --> 0:52:04.800 to think about why you think about things. Um So, 0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:08.640 if you if you're if you're more uncomfortable with two 0:52:08.719 --> 0:52:12.080 men kissing then you are with than one man and 0:52:12.239 --> 0:52:14.320 a woman kissing, you should think about that. You should 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:16.920 be like even even as like even as a trans 0:52:17.040 --> 0:52:20.879 non buyinary lesbian, if you if you if if you're 0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:22.959 more if you're more uncomfortable looking at two men kiss 0:52:23.520 --> 0:52:26.319 you should think about why, why, what social conditioning has 0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:28.920 caused this to happen, Because that's something that people have 0:52:29.000 --> 0:52:31.160 been pushing for a long time, is that, yeah, gay 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.440 stuff is like more adult or more mature than queer stuff. 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:36.960 I think that's a big part of of of these 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:39.200 types of things being at prized like pushing back on 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:44.200 that idea. Um So, like I think and the reason 0:52:44.239 --> 0:52:46.400 why we see more of these now is like there 0:52:46.440 --> 0:52:48.440 are these baby tender queers who grew up in a 0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:51.240 world where you were less likely to get fucking assaulted 0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:54.120 for being gay, while also growing up on the Internet 0:52:54.239 --> 0:52:57.200 in the age of Tumbler and Instagram. Right, these kids 0:52:57.280 --> 0:53:00.040 were able to construct their own comfortable, safe bubble the 0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:03.319 versions of reality online, only being exposed to what they 0:53:03.400 --> 0:53:05.640 want when they want, right they get they get to 0:53:05.719 --> 0:53:09.040 only view it things that they find esthetically pleasing, and 0:53:09.360 --> 0:53:12.480 the pandemic certainly heightened this right with people being forced 0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:15.880 to solely exist in their self catered online worlds. So 0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:18.839 now with the outside world opening up, some of these 0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:21.719 soft baby tender queers are going through puberty and are 0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:26.200 dealing with their quote unquote uncomfy feelings um and the 0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:28.400 added notion of being exposed to things that you have 0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:32.239 specifically not sought out like that that causes them to 0:53:32.239 --> 0:53:34.839 be uncomfortable. Right, if if you're if you're if you're 0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:37.520 a FEMI person who has just attracted to other FEMI people, 0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:41.279 having to having to look at dudes be affection. It 0:53:41.400 --> 0:53:44.960 may not be your cup of tea, but and you 0:53:45.040 --> 0:53:48.680 may not like enjoy it, but that's like it's just 0:53:48.880 --> 0:53:51.680 as queer as you are. So if you shouldn't you 0:53:51.719 --> 0:53:58.560 can't prioritize your queerness over somebody else's. Um it's it's 0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:01.800 it's it's it's It's like there's this collection of baby 0:54:01.880 --> 0:54:05.720 gates that gets uncomfortable being reminded that people, like especially 0:54:05.800 --> 0:54:09.040 people whom they are not personally attracted to, have sex. 0:54:09.239 --> 0:54:11.960 It's like if they're reminded that this happens and they 0:54:12.000 --> 0:54:14.960 don't like it, Um, it's like it feels like they 0:54:15.000 --> 0:54:17.680 have this sort of like anxiety just about about just 0:54:17.800 --> 0:54:21.160 looking at something that they perceive as sexual in nature. Right, 0:54:21.520 --> 0:54:24.680 and for this for them, this includes other but two 0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:28.360 differently queer people wearing leather or being semi nude, like 0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:32.040 dudes being shirtless or women being shirtless, for like think 0:54:32.239 --> 0:54:34.719 that that's a whole other double standard that should be 0:54:34.960 --> 0:54:39.680 uh pushed back upon. Um. But like, again, it's pride. 0:54:39.680 --> 0:54:42.560 It's not any more naked than people at the beach. Uh, 0:54:43.000 --> 0:54:46.080 So you're not, it's not. Actually if they're very selective 0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:48.399 in the types of things that they that they will 0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:51.080 they that they will focus on, and it plays into 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:55.239 this notion that's used by all like anti gay legislation, 0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:58.839 that gayness is inherently more sexual than being straight, Right, 0:54:58.920 --> 0:55:01.080 it's it's it's it's more sexual, it's more mature, it's 0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:04.640 more adult. Uh because for a long time, being gay 0:55:05.120 --> 0:55:09.200 was exclusively seen as like a hyper sexual dving act um. 0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:14.279 And now, especially among gen Z baby queers, being queer 0:55:14.920 --> 0:55:18.040 is now less tied to specifically the act of sex. Right. 0:55:18.160 --> 0:55:21.120 Queerness is much more of an like an overarching personal 0:55:21.480 --> 0:55:23.719 identity now, especially as like as an intersex with like 0:55:23.800 --> 0:55:25.960 gender and stuff, right, you know, whether that being on 0:55:26.080 --> 0:55:28.520 binary or this other stuff like pan sexual, bisexual, what 0:55:28.600 --> 0:55:31.320 have you. But to kind of circle back to the 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:35.200 Kinker Pride stuff, people want us dead for being queer. Uh, 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:37.960 it doesn't him mad if someone's parading around in a collar. 0:55:38.440 --> 0:55:42.040 If you're uncomfortable, you should maybe learned to fight, actually 0:55:42.120 --> 0:55:43.800 fight back into people who actually want to kill you. 0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:46.719 Like Pride was a riot, you should you should sort 0:55:46.760 --> 0:55:50.600 out your uncomfy feelings elsewhere or director or director uncomfy 0:55:50.640 --> 0:55:53.920 feelings that the people attacking us. So maybe maybe don't 0:55:54.239 --> 0:55:59.319 prop up can get pride discourse When accusations of queer 0:55:59.400 --> 0:56:01.239 people being all groomers is that is that an all 0:56:01.280 --> 0:56:04.400 time high and there's fascists organizing to like shoot us 0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:07.440 at Pride marches, So maybe consider that before you do 0:56:07.560 --> 0:56:10.080 discourse on Twitter dot com. I'm I'm gonna do one 0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:11.799 little quote and then we will have an ad break. 0:56:12.239 --> 0:56:14.520 Just gonna end this section with a quote from them 0:56:14.640 --> 0:56:18.640 dot com again quote. Kinks, sex and protests are all 0:56:18.719 --> 0:56:20.960 inherent parts of Pride. One of the core tenets of 0:56:21.080 --> 0:56:25.279 Pride is liberation and working against cultural shaming. Calling to 0:56:25.360 --> 0:56:28.840 quote not perform your kinks and fetishes at Pride because 0:56:29.000 --> 0:56:32.040 some miners are there and King can quote sexualize the 0:56:32.080 --> 0:56:36.279 event unquote uh implies that celebrating sexuality and kink is 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:39.520 openly bad, and normalizing these things should be a goal 0:56:39.600 --> 0:56:42.640 of Pride. B D s M subversus sexuality and leather 0:56:42.719 --> 0:56:45.560 culture have enjoyed a long history within the lgbt Q 0:56:45.719 --> 0:56:48.520 rights movement, and such public space of sexuality are driven 0:56:48.760 --> 0:56:52.279 by much more than libido or countercultural impulses. They're an 0:56:52.320 --> 0:56:55.200 inherent expression of queer culture and queer sexuality, and as 0:56:55.239 --> 0:56:58.840 such deserve a place at Pride as much as anything else. Okay, 0:56:59.400 --> 0:57:01.680 and now it's time to actually get into what the 0:57:01.719 --> 0:57:05.680 title of these episodes is about. Uh, the Operation Pride 0:57:05.719 --> 0:57:11.040 Fell stuff. We're gonna talk about this thing that sucks. Um. So, 0:57:11.680 --> 0:57:14.520 whether you're looking at the conservative groomer discourse or the 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:17.040 tender queer kink it Pride discourse, you'll see a lot 0:57:17.080 --> 0:57:19.360 of the same logic as well as a lot of 0:57:19.400 --> 0:57:23.600 the same photos. We've We've talked a lot about memes 0:57:23.800 --> 0:57:25.600 on the show, and I'm not gonna get I'm not 0:57:25.640 --> 0:57:28.920 gonna get into like the powder memes very much right now, 0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:32.600 but suffice to say that like a picture can stick 0:57:32.640 --> 0:57:34.480 in your head a lot easier than a bunch of 0:57:34.560 --> 0:57:37.320 words can. Um And throughout the Groomer and kick It 0:57:37.400 --> 0:57:40.479 Pride shit, there are a few select photos that people 0:57:40.600 --> 0:57:43.720 use to demonstrate their opinions on how gay people are 0:57:44.160 --> 0:57:48.640 a threat to children. Um. Either either there's just pictures 0:57:48.720 --> 0:57:52.520 of adults and like kink associated garb, usually like full 0:57:52.640 --> 0:57:56.840 latex body suits or pop masks UM or uh. And 0:57:57.040 --> 0:58:00.320 there's the specifically like uh. There's these two specific pictures 0:58:00.640 --> 0:58:03.240 of kids just like standing next to adults who are 0:58:03.280 --> 0:58:05.720 wearing pop masks that get used a lot. There's also 0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:07.760 there's also a lot of pictures of like drag queen 0:58:08.120 --> 0:58:12.200 story time and whenever, whenever I see any of these 0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:14.880 very specific pictures, I flashed back to when I first 0:58:14.920 --> 0:58:17.880 came across the original Operation Pride Fall four chune thread 0:58:18.080 --> 0:58:21.400 back in because these are actually all of all of 0:58:21.440 --> 0:58:25.120 the exact same pictures. Um so. Operation Pride Fall was 0:58:25.240 --> 0:58:29.280 a cyber harassment campaign started on Fortune, targeting the degeneracy 0:58:29.400 --> 0:58:32.720 of the LGBTQ community by attempting to sway public opinion 0:58:32.800 --> 0:58:37.040 against queer people by linking being gay to grooming and pedophilia. 0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:42.959 So checking back in two oh boy, Oh boy, has 0:58:43.320 --> 0:58:47.720 has things happened? So? Initially organized on Fortune, Discord and 0:58:47.760 --> 0:58:51.080 Telegram right before Pride Month, the campaign set out targets 0:58:51.160 --> 0:58:54.920 and methods to flood the social media platforms of gay venues, 0:58:55.320 --> 0:58:59.800 Pride sponsors, and LGBTQ people or supporters with spam and 0:59:00.040 --> 0:59:03.880 t game memes and media, usually photos intended to imply 0:59:04.040 --> 0:59:07.160 a link between being openly queer and the grooming of children, 0:59:07.600 --> 0:59:10.680 uh and operating online under the banner of Operation Pride Fall. 0:59:11.080 --> 0:59:14.480 The campaign started on May tense, when an anonymous four 0:59:14.560 --> 0:59:19.080 chan poster posted a thread on poll outlining Operation Pride Fall, 0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:23.760 which was pitching it as a crowdsourced campaign aimed at 0:59:23.800 --> 0:59:29.120 damaging the LGBTQ community during the month of June. The 0:59:29.200 --> 0:59:32.840 plans centered around quote unquote red pilling users in the 0:59:32.920 --> 0:59:37.440 commons sections of companies that support l lgbt Q causes 0:59:37.840 --> 0:59:42.360 on social media. The four Chan post read quote. Every June, 0:59:42.560 --> 0:59:46.440 hundreds of massive corporations banned together to smother social media 0:59:46.800 --> 0:59:50.320 in posts in flavor of Pride Month, a code word 0:59:50.400 --> 0:59:53.560 for the degeneracy that is lgbt activism. Many of these 0:59:53.600 --> 0:59:56.880 accounts are rather small and get very little engagement, yet 0:59:56.920 --> 1:00:00.360 they continue to post without backlashed beginning on June first. 1:00:00.440 --> 1:00:03.760 The goal of Operation Pride Fall is to get on Twitter, Instagram, etcetera, 1:00:04.120 --> 1:00:06.920 and drop a ship ton of disturbing red pills on 1:00:07.040 --> 1:00:11.040 homosexuality on the comments of the lesser known pages. The 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:14.320 bigger pages are okay targets, but posts tend to get 1:00:14.480 --> 1:00:18.120 unnoticed in the sea of other comments. Commenting on smaller 1:00:18.200 --> 1:00:20.480 pages once with less than one hundred likes and so 1:00:21.120 --> 1:00:23.440 means anyone who've used it will see the posts and 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:28.920 companies will reconsider their pro pride posts afterwards. Unquote. So 1:00:30.080 --> 1:00:33.520 if you scroll through the archived initial like Pride Fall thread, 1:00:33.920 --> 1:00:37.800 you'll see a crowdsourced collection of pictures that they intended 1:00:37.920 --> 1:00:41.840 to flood the internet with under in the comments section 1:00:42.240 --> 1:00:47.200 of posts discussing pride or discussing LGBTQ activism or whatever. 1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:50.960 Um So in this, in this like crowdsourced collection of photos, 1:00:51.080 --> 1:00:54.320 we see a lot of drag queen storytime stuff. But 1:00:54.480 --> 1:00:56.960 many of these pictures and memes are now the same 1:00:57.040 --> 1:01:00.160 ones used both in the recent Groomer thing and in 1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:03.600 the past two years of kin get Pride discourse. It's 1:01:03.680 --> 1:01:06.960 it's the exact it's the exact same photos. Um It's 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:09.640 there's like, there's there's hundreds of them. There's hundreds of 1:01:09.720 --> 1:01:13.360 of photos of like you know, people in pop masks whatever, 1:01:13.880 --> 1:01:17.400 like waving waving pride flags. It's it's just there's a lot. 1:01:17.520 --> 1:01:20.240 There's a lot of them, and the specific ones get 1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:24.080 used for so much of the Groomer ship. Uh. And 1:01:24.560 --> 1:01:28.800 they really started to gain much more visibility during after 1:01:28.960 --> 1:01:31.960 the Opertion Pride Fall thing got launched. The Opertion Pride 1:01:32.000 --> 1:01:34.320 Fall four Times thread also instructed users and how to 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:38.080 set up fake phone numbers to make burner accounts to 1:01:38.360 --> 1:01:41.520 to comment on these on these social media pages. Um 1:01:42.600 --> 1:01:45.840 There's another really interesting part that the Oppertion Pride Fall 1:01:45.920 --> 1:01:50.960 planning stuff detailed was on on on discord on the 1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:55.920 Opertion Pridefall servers and channels. The users were planning to 1:01:56.160 --> 1:02:00.720 repurpose cringe e TikTok videos while relabeling them with anti 1:02:00.880 --> 1:02:05.760 lgbt Q captions and hashtags. Uh, here's a here's a 1:02:05.840 --> 1:02:08.920 quote from there. From there, from their planning planning discord, 1:02:09.440 --> 1:02:12.560 an additional idea, we can read pool zoomers on TikTok 1:02:12.600 --> 1:02:15.680 and literally build a fucking puppet army to funk the 1:02:15.720 --> 1:02:18.800 ship out of millennials. We should expand this operation to 1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:21.240 as many social media outlets as possible in order to 1:02:21.320 --> 1:02:25.480 maximize effort. Let's operate like this on TikTok, convince any 1:02:25.600 --> 1:02:28.080 gen z sibling or relatives to do some kind of 1:02:28.200 --> 1:02:32.760 shitty jester charade slash horror dance, and then add lgbt 1:02:32.880 --> 1:02:35.960 Q critical captions on top of it and reposted under 1:02:36.040 --> 1:02:40.680 trending hashtags. So you see elements of this exact strategy 1:02:41.080 --> 1:02:44.960 mirrored one year later in lives of TikTok by getting 1:02:45.360 --> 1:02:49.400 videos of people being I don't know kids and like 1:02:49.600 --> 1:02:51.520 kind of cringe e because kids are kind of cringe E. 1:02:51.880 --> 1:02:55.240 But videos of kids on TikTok and mischaracterizing you know, 1:02:55.520 --> 1:02:58.800 TikTok videos and adding adding lgbt Q talking points on 1:02:58.840 --> 1:03:01.160 top of them. Uh, just sway the public opinion of 1:03:01.240 --> 1:03:03.840 queer people. It's the it's the exact same strategy as 1:03:03.880 --> 1:03:06.760 as a similar idea. It was also implemented alongside setting 1:03:06.840 --> 1:03:09.680 up fake dating apt profiles do not only spread their 1:03:09.720 --> 1:03:12.520 anti gay kind of grooming memes, but also to form 1:03:12.760 --> 1:03:15.760 vital content by catfishing gay people and getting them to 1:03:15.840 --> 1:03:20.720 like be an embarrassing interactions. Uh. Another quote on Tinder, 1:03:20.880 --> 1:03:24.520 Bumble and Grinder set up freak profiles with legit convincing 1:03:24.560 --> 1:03:28.560 images and descriptions that criticized lgbt So it's this, it's 1:03:28.760 --> 1:03:31.760 trying to catfish queer people and like, then I guess 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:35.920 span them with pictures of these like grooming memes, um 1:03:36.280 --> 1:03:38.440 and see what their reaction is then post it. Right. 1:03:38.520 --> 1:03:42.560 It's so the whole operation private file strategy might appear 1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:46.360 pretty simple. Right, it's like basically glorified ship posting, setting 1:03:46.440 --> 1:03:49.200 up a bunch of fake accounts and demonizing queer people 1:03:49.200 --> 1:03:52.600 in the comment section of small corporations and influencers. There 1:03:52.600 --> 1:03:54.120 definitely is a lot more to it. Than that, right, 1:03:54.160 --> 1:03:56.640 there was there was this element of like planned escalation, 1:03:57.200 --> 1:04:00.520 starting off first as like appearing as a reasonable comments, right, 1:04:00.600 --> 1:04:04.120 acting in very good faith, just as somebody concerned by 1:04:04.520 --> 1:04:08.240 kids being exposed to to sexual materials would, whether that 1:04:08.360 --> 1:04:10.840 be you know, people in drag at a library reading 1:04:10.920 --> 1:04:16.000 books or people at a Pride parade. Right, So instead 1:04:16.000 --> 1:04:20.600 of immediately going on like full gay bashing, uh, saying 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:22.920 that we should you know, kill all deviant trans people, 1:04:23.400 --> 1:04:26.440 which a lot of conservative common hitters just say now 1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:29.720 like Alijah Schaeffer who just posts memes about wanting to 1:04:29.880 --> 1:04:34.320 kill trans kids. Um, these these these board fascists on 1:04:34.440 --> 1:04:38.280 Fortune try to coordinate a slow, more insidious approach which 1:04:38.320 --> 1:04:41.520 they would hope would just gradually turn the tide of 1:04:41.600 --> 1:04:45.400 public opinion against queer people. Here's a here's the snippet 1:04:45.440 --> 1:04:48.080 from one of the Pride Fault organizing chats. Quote keep 1:04:48.120 --> 1:04:52.040 it normi, palatable and friendly. This means no Nazi or 1:04:52.120 --> 1:04:54.959 Hitler ship. The goal is to make them question whether 1:04:55.480 --> 1:04:59.160 what they're supporting is really the right thing. So as 1:04:59.320 --> 1:05:03.160 as as Pride progressed the the the Pride Fall participants 1:05:03.360 --> 1:05:06.920 coordinated on four Chune Discord and Telegram to slowly increase 1:05:06.960 --> 1:05:10.880 the frequency and intensity of the campaign. Another quote from 1:05:10.880 --> 1:05:14.400 the organizing chat quote, think about it as waves day 1:05:14.440 --> 1:05:17.440 one is simply questioning homosexuality, and then as the days 1:05:17.560 --> 1:05:19.720 goes on, it will get worse and worse until the 1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:24.040 end of Pride Month. So uh. In terms of physical 1:05:24.120 --> 1:05:27.040 things that actually had uh, I believe opportion. Pride Fall 1:05:27.160 --> 1:05:29.800 resulted in a few gay events getting shut down. There 1:05:29.880 --> 1:05:31.520 was like this event and I think it was it 1:05:31.560 --> 1:05:33.720 was like a like at a queer nightclub in the 1:05:33.840 --> 1:05:36.160 UK that that got shut down. There was a few 1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:40.560 other like like obviously like material results that that they 1:05:40.640 --> 1:05:44.720 had by doing this harassment campaign against venues and corporations. 1:05:45.120 --> 1:05:48.439 But I think there's they were more successful in first 1:05:48.440 --> 1:05:51.840 of all, spreading specific memetic images that are now commonly 1:05:52.000 --> 1:05:55.080 used in their grooming stuff and in the kink of 1:05:55.160 --> 1:05:57.840 Pride stuff some some of which these images were not 1:05:57.920 --> 1:06:00.480 really used in discourse before but now are common place. 1:06:00.560 --> 1:06:03.880 I think that's really where more of this idea succeeded. 1:06:04.360 --> 1:06:06.520 So over the course of the month, they will want 1:06:06.560 --> 1:06:09.280 to get more regular people to start associating members of 1:06:09.320 --> 1:06:13.000 the LGBTQ community with pedophilia and in order to do that. 1:06:13.320 --> 1:06:16.000 The way they see it is by just gradually shifting 1:06:16.080 --> 1:06:20.360 this discussion. Uh, and then as public opinion alters, they 1:06:20.440 --> 1:06:23.800 hope that brands will distance themselves from the LGBTQ community 1:06:24.200 --> 1:06:27.280 and stop doing more more pride shit. Um right, It's 1:06:27.320 --> 1:06:29.880 like that was that was another big part of what 1:06:30.000 --> 1:06:33.160 their intention was. And they may not have done all 1:06:33.240 --> 1:06:35.600 that stuff immediately, like they may not may not have 1:06:35.720 --> 1:06:40.000 succeeded in that, but they definitely did succeed in the 1:06:40.160 --> 1:06:43.440 prevalence of the images that they were trying to intentionally spread, 1:06:43.680 --> 1:06:47.240 because that absolutely has happened. Do you know who else 1:06:47.400 --> 1:06:52.760 loves implanting ideas into your brain? That's that's that's right. 1:06:52.920 --> 1:06:57.560 The products and services that sponsored this podcast, go go buy, 1:06:57.640 --> 1:07:01.000 go buy their product or get a job at one 1:07:01.040 --> 1:07:05.080 of the you know, you know that what I'm talking about. Anyway, 1:07:05.280 --> 1:07:08.240 here's here's the ads and we are we are back. 1:07:08.880 --> 1:07:12.120 Wasn't wasn't it fun reading about Operation Pride Fall? Didn't 1:07:12.160 --> 1:07:20.200 that just bring bring joy to your ears? Me too? Yeah? So, 1:07:20.600 --> 1:07:22.800 as we mentioned, a big part of their attempts to 1:07:22.840 --> 1:07:26.240 sway public opinion, it's by spamming photos and memes that 1:07:26.280 --> 1:07:29.760 attempt to showcase just how dangerous gay people are to children, 1:07:30.040 --> 1:07:32.880 whether that be drag queens doing story time at the library, 1:07:33.480 --> 1:07:37.920 photos of gay people doing quote unquote can get Pride um. 1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:40.360 You know, basically basically they're trying to say, how could 1:07:40.360 --> 1:07:44.400 any reasonable person or corporation support pride. It's essentially a 1:07:44.480 --> 1:07:46.680 grooming parade, right that that's the that's the thing that 1:07:46.720 --> 1:07:49.240 they were trying to implant. And one of the things 1:07:49.320 --> 1:07:51.920 that Operation Pride Fell was successful in was popularizing a 1:07:52.000 --> 1:07:54.400 few of these can get Pride photos, many of which 1:07:54.400 --> 1:07:56.720 were then subsequently used last year during can Get Pride 1:07:56.760 --> 1:08:00.919 discourse um, and used this year as well. Uh, most 1:08:01.000 --> 1:08:05.480 mostly by some some like anti sex people on the left, um, 1:08:05.760 --> 1:08:08.840 and some of these young tender queers. Uh. And you 1:08:08.920 --> 1:08:11.600 know that this this the same photos are used in 1:08:11.680 --> 1:08:15.560 grooming stuff and in Pride Fall stuff and and can't 1:08:15.560 --> 1:08:18.760 Get Pride stuff, because it's the same based psychology at play, right, 1:08:18.800 --> 1:08:22.160 the idea that sexuality in a queer sense is dangerous 1:08:22.560 --> 1:08:26.439 and way more deviant than sexuality in a heterosexual context. Right, 1:08:26.520 --> 1:08:29.800 Like straight people kissing is rated, gay gay people kissing 1:08:29.880 --> 1:08:33.200 is rated PG or PG thirteen. Uh, it's it's it's 1:08:33.439 --> 1:08:39.360 that idea but accelerated. Another correlation between the openly homophobic 1:08:39.479 --> 1:08:42.320 groomer talking points and like the tender queer stuff is 1:08:42.680 --> 1:08:45.479 this is this idea that I'm only comfortable seeing expressions 1:08:45.479 --> 1:08:49.200 of sexuality that I can relate to or also find attractive. 1:08:49.720 --> 1:08:53.639 And another interesting thing about a lot of these photos 1:08:54.240 --> 1:08:56.040 is that a lot of these photos that they use 1:08:56.680 --> 1:09:00.400 aren't actually photos of Pride. A lot of a lot 1:09:00.439 --> 1:09:02.280 of the photos that they use are actually from the 1:09:02.360 --> 1:09:05.560 Fulsome Street Fair, which is like a kink festival. It 1:09:05.680 --> 1:09:11.960 takes place in San Francisco every year. Hard to exaggerate 1:09:12.040 --> 1:09:15.960 how horny the Fulsome Street fat. So it's very horny. 1:09:16.240 --> 1:09:19.400 But also, obviously because gay people have sex, gay people 1:09:19.479 --> 1:09:22.559 also exist at the Fulsome Street Fair. Um. They may 1:09:22.680 --> 1:09:26.720 even wave a Pride flag shocking. Um. So a lot 1:09:26.800 --> 1:09:29.200 of these photos that that that they use in the 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:32.000 grooming stuff and the kink it Pride stuff are actually 1:09:32.040 --> 1:09:34.560 from the Fulsome Street Fair. There are actually photos of 1:09:34.720 --> 1:09:41.000 Pride parades, of it's and it's it's and of course 1:09:41.040 --> 1:09:42.720 anyone who's been to Pride we kind of know that 1:09:43.280 --> 1:09:47.920 because Pride is not like the Fulsome Street Fair, they 1:09:47.960 --> 1:09:51.799 are very different to vents. And that's another an indicator 1:09:51.840 --> 1:09:53.400 of how a lot of these people who prop up 1:09:53.439 --> 1:09:56.599 this discourse online have never been to Pride either, because 1:09:56.680 --> 1:09:59.080 they're sharing photos at the Fulsome Street Fair and saying 1:09:59.120 --> 1:10:02.320 it's Pride. Um. Obviously, lots of these Nazis on fourtune, 1:10:02.360 --> 1:10:05.439 I've never been to the Fulsome Street Fair or Pride. Uh. 1:10:06.479 --> 1:10:09.320 But they they also share these same photos because hey, 1:10:09.360 --> 1:10:13.320 it's it's people who look gay doing sexual things in public. 1:10:13.760 --> 1:10:16.000 That means it's at Pride and it's a danger to children, 1:10:16.240 --> 1:10:17.519 even though a lot of them are actually at the 1:10:17.560 --> 1:10:22.040 Fulsome Street Fair. Um. So if then, if if you're 1:10:22.040 --> 1:10:25.800 a queer person and you're reposting these fulsome Street Fair 1:10:26.000 --> 1:10:28.920 pictures and claiming to be from and claiming that they're 1:10:28.920 --> 1:10:31.600 from a Pride parade, uh to bash like kink it 1:10:31.640 --> 1:10:35.720 Pride stuff? Uh, reconsider that because you're basically just doing 1:10:35.880 --> 1:10:38.519 the work that neo Nazis wants to do. Uh. Just 1:10:38.720 --> 1:10:40.920 you're just doing it on your own time, right Like 1:10:41.160 --> 1:10:44.320 it's you're repurposing the exact same photos that they were 1:10:44.479 --> 1:10:47.360 that they were putting out there within this context and 1:10:47.520 --> 1:10:50.080 just not even not even knowing where these where. These 1:10:50.160 --> 1:10:54.640 where these pictures are from. Um so stop stop that 1:10:55.360 --> 1:10:58.640 I can consider not if if you have to, like 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:01.880 if you're gonna go to all of this work to 1:11:01.960 --> 1:11:07.559 denounce queer people for like existing, maybe you should consider 1:11:07.600 --> 1:11:11.000 why you're doing that, because wow, that's that sucks. Because 1:11:11.439 --> 1:11:14.000 calling the fulsome street Fair a pride parade and then 1:11:14.120 --> 1:11:17.519 demonizing it because then then and then and then demonizing 1:11:17.560 --> 1:11:21.320 pride because there's people who act like pretty kinky is 1:11:21.439 --> 1:11:25.040 not not great because that's not what anything is happening. 1:11:25.120 --> 1:11:28.720 You're none of none, none of that is accurate. So 1:11:29.920 --> 1:11:33.160 that's it's really frustrating to look at to look at 1:11:33.320 --> 1:11:36.200 all of all of the ways these things, these things combined, 1:11:36.320 --> 1:11:40.040 because you get you get intender queers sharing fulsome street 1:11:40.040 --> 1:11:44.240 Fair pictures, you get conservative politicians sharing them all calling 1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:46.840 them pride stuff. To begin, like a lot of the 1:11:46.880 --> 1:11:49.519 stuff you see there isn't even like a lot of 1:11:49.600 --> 1:11:51.320 them isn't like a lot of pictures don't even have 1:11:51.439 --> 1:11:56.280 like full nudity. Um so that's not necessarily like's not 1:11:56.439 --> 1:11:59.559 it's not even super important, but it's you're conflating these 1:11:59.720 --> 1:12:03.479 these things in a really disingenuous way, and you're just 1:12:03.680 --> 1:12:06.160 repeating the exact same things that Nazis have been trying 1:12:06.200 --> 1:12:08.759 to get you to repeat for years, and you should 1:12:08.760 --> 1:12:13.320 consider why that happens. So all of the grimming stuff 1:12:13.360 --> 1:12:15.560 obviously has gotten has gotten worse in the in the 1:12:15.600 --> 1:12:20.400 past few months. Uh definitely definitely ballooned around the around 1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:22.960 the don't say gay bill, and this got tied into 1:12:22.960 --> 1:12:25.720 a whole bunch of stuff happening in Florida with the 1:12:25.760 --> 1:12:28.800 Disney Corporation, and a lot of the grimming stuff got 1:12:28.880 --> 1:12:33.960 tied to conservatives attacking Disney now um and calling Disney 1:12:34.040 --> 1:12:38.200 a grooming organization. We've had We've had far right candidates 1:12:38.680 --> 1:12:40.960 show up in front of in front of Disney World 1:12:41.120 --> 1:12:44.960 to do protests. We've had Nazis show up in front 1:12:45.000 --> 1:12:47.280 of Disney World to do protests. You've seen a lot 1:12:47.320 --> 1:12:51.000 of mega people show up at Disney World to do protests, UM, 1:12:52.240 --> 1:12:56.519 all against Disney's grooming of children by including anything not 1:12:56.720 --> 1:12:59.760 street in any of their materials, which has already like 1:13:00.080 --> 1:13:03.280 so little um, which is also just extremely funny. I 1:13:03.439 --> 1:13:08.800 like imagining you bring Walt Disney, Disney come on, like 1:13:09.400 --> 1:13:15.600 it's all on the same side here, Like yeah, and 1:13:15.720 --> 1:13:19.200 like I don't know like do you I don't know 1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:21.720 if I really actually think that, like do you do 1:13:21.880 --> 1:13:26.440 all these all these people actually think that millions of teachers, democrats, 1:13:26.560 --> 1:13:29.439 corporate entertainment creators are all complicit and it's in a 1:13:29.520 --> 1:13:33.519 long term planning of like to to sexually groom miners. 1:13:35.280 --> 1:13:38.040 Some some might believe that, right, that that kind of 1:13:38.040 --> 1:13:40.360 that kind of overlaps with some to and on stuff 1:13:40.400 --> 1:13:43.599 in the paranoia around like child trafficking. But I think 1:13:44.439 --> 1:13:47.679 others understand that they're kind of being hyperbolic and they're 1:13:47.800 --> 1:13:51.000 being inflammatory to get people angry and to get people 1:13:51.560 --> 1:13:55.519 like very very like active in their in their hatred 1:13:55.560 --> 1:13:58.400 of gay people. Right. They needs to old school homophobia 1:13:58.520 --> 1:14:00.360 kind of became a bad look. They need to find 1:14:00.360 --> 1:14:02.640 a new way to rebrand it. And now it's with 1:14:02.960 --> 1:14:06.280 this groomer stuff and like a gay teachers, trans teachers, right, 1:14:06.600 --> 1:14:09.160 gender identity stuff, right, a lot of it is now 1:14:09.439 --> 1:14:13.600 wrapped up in like trans issues. Um, But I I 1:14:13.720 --> 1:14:16.599 want to read this quote by a right wing writer 1:14:16.800 --> 1:14:20.680 named Rod Dreer. It was it was, it was. It 1:14:20.800 --> 1:14:23.800 was cited in the Atlantic, and I think it's actually 1:14:23.840 --> 1:14:26.040 a really good look at how the people who are 1:14:26.120 --> 1:14:30.320 smart on the right, Um, how that they are intentionally 1:14:30.520 --> 1:14:35.840 using this grooming label. Quote about the term groomers, it's 1:14:35.880 --> 1:14:38.800 usually used to describe pedophiles who are preparing innocent kids 1:14:38.840 --> 1:14:42.360 for sexual exploitation. I think it is coming to have 1:14:42.680 --> 1:14:46.280 a somewhat broader meaning an adult who wants to separate 1:14:46.479 --> 1:14:51.040 children from a normative sexual and gender identity, to inspire 1:14:51.160 --> 1:14:54.360 confusion in them and to turn them against their parents 1:14:54.760 --> 1:14:58.760 and all the normative traditions and institutions in society. It 1:14:58.840 --> 1:15:02.040 may not be specifically to groom them for sexual activity, 1:15:02.439 --> 1:15:04.800 but it is certainly to groom them to take them 1:15:05.000 --> 1:15:08.720 on a sexual slash gender identity at odds with the 1:15:08.880 --> 1:15:13.040 norm which really I think that that quote, that quote 1:15:13.200 --> 1:15:16.800 really showcases what's going on in their brains there. Yeah, well, 1:15:16.840 --> 1:15:19.120 and this is something I think like Drere, like Rob 1:15:19.320 --> 1:15:21.719 Drear in particular, doing this, I think it's a really 1:15:21.840 --> 1:15:24.400 bad sign because there's people who don't know who Rob 1:15:24.520 --> 1:15:28.240 Drere is. He's like a weirdo Catholic guy. He's been 1:15:28.240 --> 1:15:30.560 like a right wing like Catholic. I think he's a 1:15:30.840 --> 1:15:34.000 roving Catholic calumnist for a long time. And like, you know, 1:15:34.000 --> 1:15:36.160 if you go back to like two seventeen. His big 1:15:36.200 --> 1:15:38.160 thing was his whope was a thing called the Benedict option, 1:15:38.200 --> 1:15:41.200 which was basically like, okay, so like secular society has 1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:45.519 become corrupted, like Christians should just pull out of it, 1:15:46.040 --> 1:15:47.760 right and go live with their own communities that can 1:15:47.800 --> 1:15:49.160 be sort of like like you know, we we like 1:15:49.280 --> 1:15:51.560 we we we we've we've lost this world. We have 1:15:51.680 --> 1:15:54.120 to like create a new world which we can live 1:15:54.160 --> 1:15:57.960 around and sort of like Christian truth or whatever. And 1:15:59.120 --> 1:16:01.920 he he was in this long running kind of like 1:16:02.160 --> 1:16:07.559 battle with a sort of like I guess like openly 1:16:07.640 --> 1:16:10.360 philangious kind of like openly fascists, I mean, not quite 1:16:10.360 --> 1:16:14.000 openly fascist, but like people people who are reading uh, 1:16:14.479 --> 1:16:18.240 like what's his name, people who are reading Schmidt, and 1:16:18.280 --> 1:16:21.160 like the Nazi lawyers who were like, okay, well we 1:16:21.720 --> 1:16:23.840 you know, instead of as opposed to this thing of 1:16:23.920 --> 1:16:25.800 like word Catholics, we're going to pull back from the world, 1:16:26.960 --> 1:16:29.400 their thing was we're going to use We're going to 1:16:29.600 --> 1:16:33.439 use like the states to enforce Christian doctrine. And Drere 1:16:33.560 --> 1:16:35.720 had sort of like fought that. And the fact that 1:16:35.880 --> 1:16:39.120 Drere is now just full on in this grooming ship, 1:16:39.360 --> 1:16:43.160 right that is really bad. Yep. And and looking again, 1:16:43.280 --> 1:16:44.640 you know if even if you want to go back 1:16:44.640 --> 1:16:46.240 into his history, right, like, this is this is the 1:16:46.360 --> 1:16:48.639 kind of flip that happened that brought the evangelicals into 1:16:48.640 --> 1:16:51.320 the political scene, right, Like, you have this flip from 1:16:51.479 --> 1:16:53.640 like people being like while the raptures coming insidees and 1:16:53.680 --> 1:16:55.840 peers who are not gonna become be politically engaged too. 1:16:56.320 --> 1:16:58.439 Oh hey, look we can use the state to just 1:16:58.640 --> 1:17:01.599 like destroyer, pull lenemies and create the kingdom of Heaven 1:17:01.640 --> 1:17:05.439 on earth. And yeah, this is this is not good. 1:17:05.880 --> 1:17:09.400 This is yeah. But I think specifically that quotes a 1:17:09.439 --> 1:17:13.320 really good insight the smart conservatives who know what they're doing, 1:17:13.479 --> 1:17:18.240 Like they know it's not actual grooming, but it's if 1:17:18.280 --> 1:17:20.439 they can if they can use that word within the 1:17:20.560 --> 1:17:23.599 context to being like it's about getting it's about getting 1:17:23.720 --> 1:17:28.559 kids to adopt a non normative sexual identity. Again, it's 1:17:28.600 --> 1:17:32.760 like non normative, right, It's it's confusion in them turning 1:17:32.800 --> 1:17:36.200 them against the institutions in society. Right, all of all 1:17:36.280 --> 1:17:39.920 of these things that is that is mirrored across lots 1:17:39.920 --> 1:17:42.240 of the groom discourse, the Kinker pride discourse, all this 1:17:42.320 --> 1:17:43.960 kind of stuff it's it's it's the same, it's the 1:17:44.040 --> 1:17:47.519 same thing. It's like a non normative sexuality is more 1:17:47.680 --> 1:17:52.400 sexual than a normative sexuality. It's this whole idea, man, 1:17:52.720 --> 1:17:55.800 And it's not great because it's not going to stop 1:17:55.880 --> 1:17:59.360 with kids either. Uh, it's not gonna we we I 1:17:59.439 --> 1:18:02.320 talked about talk with this a lot. How how once 1:18:02.360 --> 1:18:05.240 they ban you know, trans health care for miners, they're 1:18:05.280 --> 1:18:08.120 gonna bump it up to then they're gonna bump it 1:18:08.240 --> 1:18:11.640 up to no one has it at all. And I have, 1:18:11.840 --> 1:18:14.880 I got, I got an update on that front. Um. So, 1:18:15.720 --> 1:18:19.000 first of all, for a recent legislation, there's the Alabama 1:18:19.080 --> 1:18:22.599 Felony Healthcare Band for Trans Youth, which forcibly detransitions teams 1:18:22.600 --> 1:18:25.320 across the state. UM. That that that that that that's 1:18:25.320 --> 1:18:28.040 gonna enacted. And in Missouri there's a similar bill in 1:18:28.080 --> 1:18:33.720 the works, officially titled the Save Adolescents from Experimentation Act um. 1:18:33.880 --> 1:18:38.760 And it applies to into individuals younger than nineteen years old. UM. 1:18:38.840 --> 1:18:42.680 And it would it would inhibit Missouri UH physicians and 1:18:42.760 --> 1:18:47.160 healthcare providers and prevent them from providing gender affirming healthcare 1:18:47.240 --> 1:18:51.479 to patients. And it turns out Missouri la Is lawmakers 1:18:51.479 --> 1:18:53.479 a few weeks ago, we're debating the bill seeking to 1:18:53.640 --> 1:18:56.400 restrict access to gender firm and care for miners and 1:19:00.000 --> 1:19:02.920 and they also suggested that access to medical interventions like 1:19:03.000 --> 1:19:07.120 hormones be withheld from transgender and non binary individuals until 1:19:07.160 --> 1:19:11.840 at least their twenty fifth birthday. During public in Missouri's 1:19:11.960 --> 1:19:16.360 for House Bill to six four nine, Lorie Haynes, a psychologist, 1:19:16.520 --> 1:19:18.880 testified that she believes young adults under the age of 1:19:18.920 --> 1:19:22.439 twenty five are unable to fully comprehend the dramatic and 1:19:22.640 --> 1:19:26.200 drastic and irreparable changes their body will go under if 1:19:26.240 --> 1:19:29.840 they receive gender affirming medical treatments like commaunity blockers or 1:19:29.960 --> 1:19:34.559 hormone therapies. Hayes also said that she's supported getting conversion 1:19:34.560 --> 1:19:38.600 therapy for trans kids. Yeah, I'll bet she thinks that 1:19:38.680 --> 1:19:42.759 eighteen year old should be able to buy join the military, 1:19:43.520 --> 1:19:48.120 join the So it's already happening. We already have lawmakers 1:19:48.200 --> 1:19:50.600 and we have psychologists being brought in to testify that 1:19:50.680 --> 1:19:52.920 this is the case. People they want that this is 1:19:52.960 --> 1:19:54.519 there going to be the next thing. They want this 1:19:54.600 --> 1:19:58.599 to happen. Um, now I'm just gonna say, obviously, uh, 1:19:59.439 --> 1:20:01.360 recent started You, published in the Journal of America in 1:20:01.400 --> 1:20:05.040 the Journal of the American Medical Association found that receiving 1:20:05.080 --> 1:20:08.280 gender affirm and care including beauty blockers and hormones between 1:20:08.320 --> 1:20:11.880 the ages thirteen and twenty associated with six lower odds 1:20:12.120 --> 1:20:15.639 of moderate or severe depression and seventy lower are odds 1:20:15.680 --> 1:20:19.200 of suicidality. Another study published late last year by the 1:20:19.240 --> 1:20:22.320 Trevor Project found that among transgender and non binary miners, 1:20:22.760 --> 1:20:26.040 hormone therapy was associated with nearly lower odds of recent 1:20:26.120 --> 1:20:28.920 depression or a suicide attempt over the last year, and 1:20:29.080 --> 1:20:32.160 a lot of the effects of permitty blockers and even 1:20:32.320 --> 1:20:36.040 hormonal placement therapy actually are reversible and are not damaging. 1:20:36.560 --> 1:20:41.080 Um So, I mean, but we we all know that 1:20:41.760 --> 1:20:49.040 there's that horrible uh Matt Walsh trans documentary coming out soon. Yeah, 1:20:49.240 --> 1:20:53.200 and you definitely I know. In the trailer he says that, uh, 1:20:53.479 --> 1:20:56.880 one of the drugs used to give puberty blockers to 1:20:57.000 --> 1:21:00.760 miners is also used as a chemical cast racian for 1:21:01.040 --> 1:21:06.760 sexual assault perpetrators, UH, which is kind of true. But 1:21:07.600 --> 1:21:09.720 it's castration in the sense that you need to take 1:21:09.760 --> 1:21:12.960 the drug always for its to work. It's like it's 1:21:12.960 --> 1:21:15.879 a hormone blocker. It's tops the sausterone from from being produced. 1:21:16.200 --> 1:21:18.519 If you go off of it, it's gonna happen again. 1:21:18.560 --> 1:21:23.080 It's not a permanent castration. It's gonna suppress testosterone. You know, 1:21:24.320 --> 1:21:27.679 a popular medication for people with heart problems is also 1:21:27.800 --> 1:21:32.880 a highly explosive compound. Oh no, can be used in 1:21:32.960 --> 1:21:37.160 different ways. It's yeah, like like cancer victims are found 1:21:37.160 --> 1:21:41.280 with dihydrogen monooxide in their system. Like so, but yeah, anyway, 1:21:41.720 --> 1:21:43.160 we're gonna see a lot of We're gonna see a 1:21:43.200 --> 1:21:45.560 lot of lives about HRT coming up soon because that 1:21:45.640 --> 1:21:47.320 this Matt Walsh talking about is going to be stupid. 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:52.439 But again he doesn't understand the science. Obviously, he's a propagandist. Um. 1:21:52.840 --> 1:21:56.120 But the last thing I want to talk about, here's 1:21:56.160 --> 1:21:59.840 what's gonna be happening in cord Aline Idaho. Um So, 1:22:00.479 --> 1:22:05.240 taking taking their cue from the I'm gonna be I'm quoting, 1:22:05.240 --> 1:22:11.080 I'm going to quote an article here by by Daily Costs. Uh. 1:22:11.360 --> 1:22:13.640 They did a really a really really good write up. 1:22:13.960 --> 1:22:19.639 David new Wars wrote it. David David NewART for the record, 1:22:19.880 --> 1:22:23.640 Like the thing that he has been this beat that 1:22:23.880 --> 1:22:27.040 that we're in like writing about these people. David's been 1:22:27.080 --> 1:22:30.440 doing it for like thirty years. He's he's amazing, He's incredible. 1:22:31.680 --> 1:22:33.720 So I'm gonna I'm gonna qute from him here. This 1:22:33.880 --> 1:22:37.080 is the last thing we'll We'll close with UM taking 1:22:37.120 --> 1:22:39.680 a queue from the incoming tide of far right fearmongering 1:22:39.720 --> 1:22:43.280 about grooming and an lgbt Q agenda in schools and libraries. 1:22:43.720 --> 1:22:46.960 A group of Idaho biker militiamen are planning to show 1:22:47.080 --> 1:22:49.840 up to confront people celebrating pride at an event in 1:22:49.960 --> 1:22:54.000 downtown Quarta Lane, Idaho, and in a public park next month. 1:22:54.680 --> 1:22:58.599 Two men from the leadership of Panhandle Patriots, a militia 1:22:58.680 --> 1:23:01.759 oriented bikers club but east to northern Idaho. Justin Allen, 1:23:01.840 --> 1:23:05.759 the group's vice president, and Jeff White, it's sergeant at arms, 1:23:06.439 --> 1:23:09.400 told a recent gathering at a church hosted by Republican 1:23:09.680 --> 1:23:12.600 state house member Heather Scott that they plan to have 1:23:12.800 --> 1:23:15.599 a gun driven event next month in Courtly in Idaho, 1:23:16.080 --> 1:23:19.120 the same day as this city's pride celebration at a 1:23:19.200 --> 1:23:24.200 park less than a mile away, and they planned a confrontation. UM. 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:27.240 I'm going to play a clip of them announcing this, 1:23:28.160 --> 1:23:31.600 uh and yeah, give it a listen. These parades or 1:23:31.680 --> 1:23:35.120 government funded many of them. You aren't aware. Right now, 1:23:36.400 --> 1:23:40.760 in court Alayne, on the tenth of June, there is 1:23:40.840 --> 1:23:44.839 Family Day, and in Family Day they are promoting family values, 1:23:44.920 --> 1:23:49.280 activities and everything. The very following day they're having Gay 1:23:49.360 --> 1:23:53.920 Pride Day in the very same park the very next day, 1:23:54.240 --> 1:23:56.720 where they will be allowed to parade through all of 1:23:56.760 --> 1:24:02.600 Court Alaine, drag, queen dancers, education, our making all this 1:24:02.800 --> 1:24:06.160 material available for all the kids in a park that 1:24:06.360 --> 1:24:11.439 is designed for kids. We are having an event the 1:24:11.600 --> 1:24:16.040 very same day, that very same day, we actually intend 1:24:16.120 --> 1:24:18.960 to go head to head with these people. A line 1:24:19.040 --> 1:24:23.080 must be drawn in the sand. Good people need to 1:24:23.200 --> 1:24:27.240 stand up. As she was talking about the repercussions, we say, 1:24:27.960 --> 1:24:32.479 damn the repercussions. Stand up, take it to the head, 1:24:33.000 --> 1:24:37.320 Go to the fight if you can possibly. We know 1:24:37.439 --> 1:24:39.639 a lot of you are monitored. We live in Bonter County. 1:24:41.000 --> 1:24:44.240 We are fighting in multiple counties. We are asking for 1:24:44.320 --> 1:24:47.599 all of you to come stand with us. Our event 1:24:47.760 --> 1:24:50.520 is advertised as gun to Lane because it's an anniversary 1:24:50.560 --> 1:24:54.120 of when we stood to protect our community. We're standing 1:24:54.200 --> 1:24:57.720 again to protect our community. We shifted our date to 1:24:57.840 --> 1:25:00.320 be available to go head to head with these people. 1:25:01.040 --> 1:25:04.840 They are trying to take your children. This fight is 1:25:04.920 --> 1:25:09.960 not just paper, it's not just words, it's not just politicians. 1:25:10.680 --> 1:25:16.559 They have to see people standing in there facing no more. So. Wow, 1:25:16.800 --> 1:25:22.200 that sucked, uh and is entirely entirely expected. Um so. 1:25:22.400 --> 1:25:27.800 The the meeting at this at this church, read by 1:25:27.840 --> 1:25:31.720 a Republican House member, was titled the Game Plan to 1:25:31.800 --> 1:25:36.439 Remove Inappropriate Materials in our Schools and Libraries. It was 1:25:36.600 --> 1:25:40.160 It was held at a Calvary chapel in a small 1:25:40.240 --> 1:25:44.320 town north of Sandpoint, Idaho. Scott is a long history 1:25:44.360 --> 1:25:48.080 associations and identifications with the far right patriot movement, specifically 1:25:48.200 --> 1:25:54.320 in Idaho. And it was bad. Um. Heather Scott, the 1:25:54.479 --> 1:25:58.000 Republican state house member. About an hour into the night, Uh, 1:25:58.400 --> 1:26:00.960 Scott invited the tumblsh of dudes up to the podium 1:26:00.960 --> 1:26:05.920 to speak and they said that so yeah, it's in. 1:26:06.520 --> 1:26:10.360 In a flyer posted by the Panhandle Patriots advertising their 1:26:10.439 --> 1:26:13.760 planned conversation at at at at Pride at at a 1:26:13.840 --> 1:26:16.960 flyer that they made shows shows a drag queen reading 1:26:17.000 --> 1:26:19.880 at a public library and urges people to join in 1:26:19.960 --> 1:26:23.240 and standing up against the indoctrination and grooming of our children. 1:26:23.760 --> 1:26:25.840 And if you don't protect children, you are part of 1:26:25.880 --> 1:26:28.680 the problem. So yeah, they're planning to take a hole 1:26:28.680 --> 1:26:30.679 bunch of guns the same day as a Pride parade, 1:26:31.120 --> 1:26:35.800 and we'll see what happens. Um. I love that. That's that. 1:26:35.960 --> 1:26:41.040 We're just going to see what happens. And I genuine 1:26:41.560 --> 1:26:44.559 very incredibly deeply hope we're not reporting on the result 1:26:44.640 --> 1:26:50.160 of that because yep, ye. So anyway, before you share 1:26:50.240 --> 1:26:53.000 king at Pride discourse, I think this is what happens. 1:26:54.240 --> 1:26:55.920 This is what happens when you engage this in this 1:26:56.040 --> 1:26:59.320 type of rhetoric, that career sexuality is inherently more dangerous 1:26:59.360 --> 1:27:05.439 to kids. Because anyway, I'm sad. Now, yeah, this isn't 1:27:05.479 --> 1:27:09.320 really an upper of an episode. Um, you don't say, 1:27:10.720 --> 1:27:14.160 but it's it is important to talk about. Um. So 1:27:14.640 --> 1:27:17.360 if you're going to Pride this year, please be careful 1:27:17.920 --> 1:27:22.439 because there's a lot of a lot of worsening attacks 1:27:22.520 --> 1:27:26.040 on queer people. Bring an iffac. You shouldn't have to 1:27:26.520 --> 1:27:31.519 you shouldn't have to do this, but this is anyway, 1:27:31.680 --> 1:27:35.559 well that doesn't for us today. It could happen here. 1:27:36.080 --> 1:27:55.320 Hopefully it doesn't happen here. Um, but it could. Welcome 1:27:55.479 --> 1:27:58.479 to to make it happen here a podcast about something 1:27:58.560 --> 1:28:03.880 that did happen that sucked enormously. Um. I'm Christopher Wall 1:28:04.080 --> 1:28:08.040 I'm the host. Also with me is Garrison and Sophie. Hello, 1:28:08.720 --> 1:28:11.480 were just in the morning, just really starting off positive 1:28:11.560 --> 1:28:19.400 there it's look, it's it's this episode in the next episode. 1:28:20.040 --> 1:28:21.600 I mean, I guess this episode kind of ends in 1:28:21.600 --> 1:28:25.080 a high note. But that's great to hear. I'm so happy. 1:28:26.240 --> 1:28:32.920 I totally believe you. It kind of does, all right. Yeah, 1:28:33.120 --> 1:28:36.960 Sharene is also here. Hello, Hi, Sorry my fault. Keep going. 1:28:38.400 --> 1:28:41.120 So this is this is the thirty third anniversary of 1:28:41.200 --> 1:28:45.000 the Caamon Square massacre. UM. Tomorrow's episode, I think we'll 1:28:45.000 --> 1:28:47.600 actually be going out on I guess the day that 1:28:47.680 --> 1:28:50.400 it started kind of starts like the night of like 1:28:50.640 --> 1:28:55.639 June three. Um, and okay, I'm curious what you twoose 1:28:55.720 --> 1:29:01.000 like I don't know, like received like cultural memory of 1:29:01.160 --> 1:29:04.120 Channeman is because I don't know. I think I got 1:29:04.160 --> 1:29:06.639 a kind of weird one, like being from a Chinese family, 1:29:06.800 --> 1:29:11.240 but as a white Canadian, I have zero amount of 1:29:11.360 --> 1:29:17.000 my knowledge about the tam Tannaman Square massacre not really 1:29:17.040 --> 1:29:19.600 about Tanneman. Uh, it's just yeah, that is something I 1:29:19.720 --> 1:29:24.400 never never have really learned about. Yeah, I know that 1:29:24.800 --> 1:29:30.479 it happened in that's that's the American Uh lesson we 1:29:30.640 --> 1:29:34.200 got on the history of that massacre, that it happened 1:29:34.400 --> 1:29:45.320 in nineteen really mediocre. Yeah, Okay, Well today and tomorrow 1:29:45.360 --> 1:29:49.280 we're gonna we're gonna go, well, we're gonna talk. I 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:52.639 think less about what happens there specifically and more about 1:29:52.640 --> 1:29:56.680 the sort of broad at history that's in. But I 1:29:56.720 --> 1:29:59.040 guess I'll start out so in sometimes there's there's really 1:29:59.120 --> 1:30:03.559 three Channeman's. Um, there's there's the student protests that's inside 1:30:03.600 --> 1:30:08.320 Tianamon Square itself. There's this part of Beijing like around 1:30:08.439 --> 1:30:10.200 the squares, like a bunch of blocks are taken over 1:30:10.280 --> 1:30:13.439 by workers. And then there's a bunch of protests in 1:30:13.520 --> 1:30:17.120 other cities. And unfortunately we're not gonna be talking about 1:30:17.120 --> 1:30:20.439 the Protestant the other cities because like basically nothing is 1:30:20.520 --> 1:30:23.680 known about them other than that like they happened, but 1:30:23.880 --> 1:30:28.720 the people who would know aren't talking so for some 1:30:28.960 --> 1:30:36.559 somewhat obvious reasons. Um, yeah, and the students themselves, I think, 1:30:36.680 --> 1:30:39.880 like the normal version of tianament is is like these 1:30:39.920 --> 1:30:44.040 there's the students and they're like protomocracy protesters, right, but 1:30:44.800 --> 1:30:48.320 they're way weirder than that. There's there's like this weird 1:30:48.360 --> 1:30:52.240 ideological grab bag thing going on. Um, they're they're they're 1:30:52.600 --> 1:30:57.000 basically what they're piste off about is that this thing 1:30:57.200 --> 1:30:59.840 is called the perform and opening like isn't going fast enough? 1:31:00.000 --> 1:31:03.120 We should talk about what that sort of is. So 1:31:03.360 --> 1:31:05.679 performing opening is it's this period in China and sort 1:31:05.680 --> 1:31:09.080 of the eighties and songs of the nineties. Um. And 1:31:09.760 --> 1:31:11.639 on the one hand, you have these sort of steps 1:31:11.680 --> 1:31:14.920 to like ease restrictions on speech and like rehability to 1:31:15.080 --> 1:31:19.000 intellectuals and like allow for a broader public discourse. But 1:31:19.160 --> 1:31:20.840 the other half of it is that like they're they're 1:31:20.880 --> 1:31:22.880 being they're basically they're bringing markets back to China, right, 1:31:23.840 --> 1:31:27.720 And this this is a ship show in a lot 1:31:27.760 --> 1:31:29.880 of ways. If you want to hear about like the 1:31:29.960 --> 1:31:33.439 CCP reinventing debt ponage in about five years, um, go 1:31:33.600 --> 1:31:35.719 listen to my Baschard's episode and the poison Milk scandal. 1:31:35.800 --> 1:31:39.439 It's a it's a trip. But on the other hand, 1:31:39.520 --> 1:31:42.240 you have you know, so you have kind of like 1:31:42.520 --> 1:31:45.240 opening up, right, you you have just more discourse. You're 1:31:45.280 --> 1:31:49.479 they're not persecuting intellectuals again, sort of that there, they're 1:31:49.479 --> 1:31:52.920 they're they're de persecuting the intellectuals that they had persecuted. Um. 1:31:53.160 --> 1:31:55.120 But on the other hand, you get this absolutely draconian 1:31:55.200 --> 1:31:57.360 sort of like a set of crackdowns on the social sphere. 1:31:57.400 --> 1:32:00.400 You have the one child policy, you have this like 1:32:01.080 --> 1:32:03.719 really powerful tightening of one man rule in the factory, 1:32:04.760 --> 1:32:07.320 and you have the sort of the destruction of these 1:32:08.520 --> 1:32:10.439 for what we'll get into this more later, but like 1:32:10.560 --> 1:32:13.839 the the sort of limited decision making capacity that workers 1:32:13.880 --> 1:32:17.800 have had in the factories, um, just is sort of dismantled. 1:32:17.800 --> 1:32:19.479 And so you see these sort of gaps beginning to 1:32:19.560 --> 1:32:22.080 form here, right, Like, on the one hand, you have 1:32:22.160 --> 1:32:24.120 these students who want market reforms to go faster, and 1:32:24.200 --> 1:32:26.040 they want more freedom of speech, They like kind of 1:32:26.080 --> 1:32:28.560 want democracy, but like mostly what they want is to 1:32:28.640 --> 1:32:30.280 be in charge of the party so they can crush 1:32:30.400 --> 1:32:32.439 the sort of like bureaucracy they see as holding market 1:32:32.520 --> 1:32:36.960 reforms back. And it's worth noting that like a lot 1:32:37.000 --> 1:32:39.400 of these students are involved in what becomes known as 1:32:39.479 --> 1:32:43.000 neo authoritarianism, which is the sort of ideology that holds 1:32:43.040 --> 1:32:45.200 that like the strong central party should take full control 1:32:45.240 --> 1:32:47.519 of society and destroy the factions in the bureaucracy and 1:32:47.640 --> 1:32:49.600 so you know, and then that that's how you can 1:32:49.680 --> 1:32:53.000 lead development and this stuff like that stuff like ne 1:32:53.080 --> 1:32:55.560 authoritarianism survives the protests and goes on to become like 1:32:56.320 --> 1:32:59.040 a pretty major faction in the CCP itself, and then 1:32:59.080 --> 1:33:02.200 now US in two thousands, and you know, this is 1:33:02.280 --> 1:33:05.880 this is where things just get weird, right, Um, the 1:33:05.960 --> 1:33:09.720 student movement itself is very hierarchical, and it gets to 1:33:09.760 --> 1:33:12.840 the point where like but by by by the end 1:33:12.880 --> 1:33:17.680 of the student movement, there these the student leaders are 1:33:17.720 --> 1:33:20.439 like kidnapping each other over like who has control of 1:33:20.479 --> 1:33:25.120 the microphones and like the stages in the square it is. 1:33:25.280 --> 1:33:31.559 It is extremely bizarre. And you know, and in terms 1:33:31.600 --> 1:33:34.280 of like the protests actually like if what their torches 1:33:34.320 --> 1:33:35.800 are trying to do is you're trying to influence this 1:33:35.880 --> 1:33:39.439 factional fight inside the CCP over like the speed at 1:33:39.439 --> 1:33:43.599 which reformers are going to go, and this it doesn't work. 1:33:43.760 --> 1:33:46.679 It's like stunningly ineffectual. The guy they're trying to defend, 1:33:47.240 --> 1:33:49.080 like winds up getting outed and put in her house 1:33:49.080 --> 1:33:51.280 to the rest of the rest of his life. So 1:33:51.880 --> 1:33:55.519 because so those are the student protesters. But the part 1:33:55.560 --> 1:33:57.240 and that that's the student protesters are the part of 1:33:57.320 --> 1:33:59.400 this that like everyone knows, partly because some of those 1:33:59.439 --> 1:34:02.360 people escape to Hong Kong and you know that they're 1:34:02.439 --> 1:34:06.519 very influential sort of shaping the memory there. But there's 1:34:06.560 --> 1:34:10.000 also the workers that I mentioned earlier, and the students 1:34:10.040 --> 1:34:13.280 basically like hate the workers, um for for for most 1:34:13.280 --> 1:34:14.720 of the time this protest is going on, and this 1:34:14.840 --> 1:34:17.800 is the this is months, right. They literally will they 1:34:17.840 --> 1:34:19.840 will not let any of the workers go into the 1:34:20.200 --> 1:34:22.920 into tenement square like that they have. They have this 1:34:22.960 --> 1:34:24.720 whole system and like in order to get into like 1:34:25.200 --> 1:34:27.759 increasing like like closer to the center of the square, 1:34:27.760 --> 1:34:28.840 you have to be a student and then you need 1:34:28.880 --> 1:34:30.000 to get to the senator of the squere you have 1:34:30.040 --> 1:34:32.400 to be like a member of the leadership. It's very weird, 1:34:33.680 --> 1:34:35.240 and you know, and like one of the things that 1:34:35.280 --> 1:34:36.559 workers are trying to do is they want to carry 1:34:36.560 --> 1:34:37.960 out a general strike and the students are like, no, 1:34:38.080 --> 1:34:41.639 absolutely not, do not do a general strike because largely 1:34:41.800 --> 1:34:43.800 because okay, so if these people start doing a general strike, 1:34:43.880 --> 1:34:46.760 like that's not something that's not under our control, and 1:34:47.200 --> 1:34:49.640 you know, okay, So this raises the question like if 1:34:49.680 --> 1:34:51.720 the relationship between the students who are at tenement and 1:34:51.800 --> 1:34:53.760 the workers at Genemen are this bad, like why are 1:34:53.800 --> 1:34:56.960 the workers even there? Um? And And there's a few 1:34:57.000 --> 1:34:58.920 answers to this question that the sort of the simplest 1:34:58.960 --> 1:35:01.960 and most immediate one is that like the workers are 1:35:02.640 --> 1:35:05.320 initially they come out because they're pissed. They see how 1:35:05.400 --> 1:35:08.880 badly like the cops in sort of like the party 1:35:09.000 --> 1:35:11.880 is is treating the students in the square, so they 1:35:11.920 --> 1:35:14.120 get mad. But but but there's there's other stuff going 1:35:14.160 --> 1:35:19.760 on to the late eighties is the ladies in China 1:35:19.840 --> 1:35:22.519 is sort of a mess economically that there's rampant inflation 1:35:22.760 --> 1:35:26.320 and the sort of rapid increase in prices is a 1:35:26.479 --> 1:35:28.800 threat to you know, the sort of like cheap supply grain, 1:35:28.880 --> 1:35:32.000 which is like the sort of main subsidy that if 1:35:32.000 --> 1:35:34.600 you're an urban worker that you get. And meanwhile, you know, 1:35:34.680 --> 1:35:36.479 you have marketization happening, so at the same time that 1:35:36.520 --> 1:35:39.200 every prices are increasing for everyone and they can't get 1:35:39.240 --> 1:35:41.760 access the stuff that they need. You have just like 1:35:41.920 --> 1:35:45.479 CCP princelings like racing down the street and imputed sports 1:35:45.520 --> 1:35:47.640 cars and like these are like the only these are 1:35:47.760 --> 1:35:50.479 the only cars, right like people people I don't know, 1:35:50.560 --> 1:35:52.559 like like people are starting to get bicycles and mass 1:35:52.600 --> 1:35:54.760 sort of in this period. But then you know, I 1:35:54.880 --> 1:35:57.200 was like, hey, here's here's this like party boss guy 1:35:57.280 --> 1:35:59.679 who was a sports car. They're like spending years salaries 1:35:59.720 --> 1:36:01.880 like umbling at race tracks and people just get piste off. 1:36:02.760 --> 1:36:06.120 So they they start organizing. And I'm going to read 1:36:06.280 --> 1:36:11.120 from a section of a piece by JOHANNS Jong about 1:36:11.160 --> 1:36:14.920 what what they were doing. Um During the struggle to 1:36:15.000 --> 1:36:18.000 obstruct the military, workers started to realize the power of 1:36:18.040 --> 1:36:21.640 their spontaneous organization and action. This was self liberation on 1:36:21.720 --> 1:36:25.200 an unprecedented level. A huge wave of self organization ensued 1:36:25.800 --> 1:36:29.840 the Beijing Works Autonomous Federations. Membership grew exponentially in other 1:36:29.880 --> 1:36:34.439 workers organizations both within and across workplaces mushrooms. The development 1:36:34.520 --> 1:36:38.439 of organizations led to a radicalization of action. Workers started 1:36:38.520 --> 1:36:41.680 organizing self armed quasi militias such as picket cores and 1:36:41.800 --> 1:36:45.560 dat or Die brigades to monitor and broadcast the military's whereabouts. 1:36:45.920 --> 1:36:48.920 These quasi militias were also responsible for maintaining public order 1:36:48.960 --> 1:36:51.439 so as not to provide any pretext for military intervention. 1:36:52.160 --> 1:36:55.000 In a sense, Beijing became a city self managed by workers. 1:36:55.400 --> 1:36:58.880 It was reminiscent of petrograds self farmed workers organized in 1:36:58.920 --> 1:37:01.160 the Soviets in the months but beween Russia's February and 1:37:01.160 --> 1:37:05.360 October revolutions. At the same time, Beijian workers built many 1:37:05.400 --> 1:37:09.599 more barricades and fortifications and on the street in many 1:37:09.680 --> 1:37:12.759 factories that organized strikes and slowdowns. A possible general strike 1:37:12.840 --> 1:37:15.200 was put on the table as well. Many workers started 1:37:15.240 --> 1:37:17.679 to build connections between factories prepare for a general strike. 1:37:19.800 --> 1:37:21.080 And yeah, like this is the part of it that 1:37:21.160 --> 1:37:23.519 like people don't talk about because it wasn't in the square. 1:37:23.600 --> 1:37:25.240 And I mean the other part of the other faction, 1:37:25.439 --> 1:37:26.880 like the fact that that's going on here is that 1:37:27.040 --> 1:37:30.639 like so the press Corps is like sitting in the square, 1:37:31.240 --> 1:37:33.040 and this is why Channa ministers this sort like this 1:37:33.040 --> 1:37:35.160 is massive spectacle, right because all of this, everything that's 1:37:35.200 --> 1:37:37.320 happening here inside the square was happening like in front 1:37:37.360 --> 1:37:39.800 of the entire Western Press Court and like people are like, 1:37:39.920 --> 1:37:41.559 you know, like people are just like pointing cameras at 1:37:41.560 --> 1:37:47.280 their window, right, and you know, but on the other hand, 1:37:48.439 --> 1:37:52.240 the people outside of the square, like the workers outside 1:37:52.240 --> 1:37:54.200 of the square are the workers are getting more organized 1:37:54.280 --> 1:37:57.519 and this is like, this is absolutely unacceptable to the party. 1:37:57.520 --> 1:38:00.760 And so yeah, on on on night of June three, 1:38:00.880 --> 1:38:06.760 the army just starts killing them. Um they There have 1:38:06.840 --> 1:38:08.800 been a couple of attempts earlier to clear to to 1:38:09.360 --> 1:38:11.800 to clear the sort of fortifications, and it hadn't really worked. 1:38:11.880 --> 1:38:14.560 But this time, like they they they're they're able to 1:38:14.600 --> 1:38:16.800 bring in builtering units that aren't from Beijing or like 1:38:16.880 --> 1:38:21.240 aren't from around the area, and they kill an enormous 1:38:21.320 --> 1:38:25.599 number of people. Um yeah, And and I think it's 1:38:25.600 --> 1:38:28.000 I think it's important to note that, like both in 1:38:28.120 --> 1:38:31.599 terms of the killings that happened immediately and the political 1:38:31.680 --> 1:38:36.080 persecution like after that, it's it's mostly the workers bearing this, 1:38:36.720 --> 1:38:39.040 especially in the initial massacre. Most of the killing happens 1:38:39.560 --> 1:38:41.759 as the armies like fighting its way into the square. 1:38:42.800 --> 1:38:44.200 And you know, I mean they kill people in the 1:38:44.240 --> 1:38:50.240 square too, but you know, and eventually they get into 1:38:50.240 --> 1:38:51.679 the square, and this is where you get like tank 1:38:51.800 --> 1:38:53.800 man and like the sort of the famous account of 1:38:53.800 --> 1:38:55.880 the massacre. But like but that, but it's basically over right, 1:38:55.920 --> 1:38:58.200 because one of the other things has happened is that 1:38:58.560 --> 1:38:59.920 over the course of this protest, a lot of the 1:39:00.000 --> 1:39:02.000 students have left because they sort of they sort of 1:39:02.040 --> 1:39:06.000 gave up after the like factional conflict like stopped. But 1:39:06.240 --> 1:39:10.080 so so most of the people like who are there, 1:39:10.200 --> 1:39:12.759 are are are on the outs, are like other workers 1:39:12.800 --> 1:39:14.120 on the outside of this car, trying to defend it. 1:39:14.240 --> 1:39:16.680 And when those people get killed and the art the 1:39:16.760 --> 1:39:18.240 army gets the build the square, it's it's the whole 1:39:18.240 --> 1:39:22.960 things are ready over and you know, these protests get 1:39:23.000 --> 1:39:27.920 crushed and you know, but before the last bullet has 1:39:27.960 --> 1:39:31.280 been fired, everyone everyone left standing is trying to create 1:39:31.280 --> 1:39:35.120 their own narratives. But what just happened? Um, the most 1:39:35.200 --> 1:39:37.840 common one is that Chinaman is this like clash between 1:39:37.840 --> 1:39:44.120 democracy and authoritarianism, and like, okay, to some extent, that's 1:39:44.160 --> 1:39:46.960 not wrong, although I mean, you know, we've already mentioned 1:39:47.000 --> 1:39:49.120 that there are a lot of new authoritarian students there. 1:39:49.800 --> 1:39:52.920 I but like, you know, okay, this is this is 1:39:53.040 --> 1:39:55.120 kind of a fair interpretation of what's going on. Like 1:39:55.200 --> 1:39:57.519 there's a lot of other protomocracy movements in this period, 1:39:57.640 --> 1:40:00.720 like the region, most famously there's Tawan and Korean Um. 1:40:02.040 --> 1:40:09.200 But the actual question of what's happening here is is 1:40:09.680 --> 1:40:13.040 really a question of what kind of democracy there's You 1:40:13.120 --> 1:40:16.400 know that that these people are fighting for the students 1:40:16.479 --> 1:40:18.719 at Tianamens. You know to the extent that their democratic 1:40:18.760 --> 1:40:21.680 principles are sincere and not a cover for a sort 1:40:21.720 --> 1:40:26.120 of like deeply authoritarian version of liberalism that's you know, 1:40:26.280 --> 1:40:28.040 demanded by like in the sort of new class of 1:40:28.040 --> 1:40:30.240 intellectual so evercing market reforms to the extent that they like, 1:40:30.280 --> 1:40:33.640 they actually believe in this right. They believe in a 1:40:33.760 --> 1:40:36.760 very narrow conception of political democracy. And you know this 1:40:36.920 --> 1:40:39.639 this democracy is sort of political democracy operates the level 1:40:39.680 --> 1:40:41.880 of the state. Right, It's based on free citizens who 1:40:41.920 --> 1:40:45.000 are equal before the law, participating in elections. The chief representatives, 1:40:45.040 --> 1:40:48.240 you like, past laws and you know, oversee and manages 1:40:48.280 --> 1:40:53.240 state bureaucracy. But you know that this model of political democracy, 1:40:53.280 --> 1:40:54.840 which is this is the one that we live under, right, 1:40:55.920 --> 1:41:01.360 It really gets the workplace to a a separate economic 1:41:01.400 --> 1:41:05.160 sphere into which democracy doesn't extend. The capitalist firm or 1:41:05.200 --> 1:41:08.599 its state owned equivalent remains the absolute dictatorship of capitalists 1:41:08.600 --> 1:41:11.840 and the banagerial flunkeys, and even even the sort of 1:41:11.840 --> 1:41:14.559 progressive wings of the pro democracy movement in like Taiwuana, 1:41:14.600 --> 1:41:17.920 South Korea, like maintain this private, this private dictatorships. You know, 1:41:18.160 --> 1:41:20.080 if if, if, if you're a worker in one of 1:41:20.120 --> 1:41:22.880 these states, right, you get rights, you get you know, 1:41:22.920 --> 1:41:24.639 you get the ability to form unions, you get access 1:41:24.720 --> 1:41:26.599 to the welfare state, you get these sort of limited 1:41:26.640 --> 1:41:29.439 protections from the worst like physical and psychological abuses that 1:41:29.520 --> 1:41:33.280 your bosses can inflict. But no, no matter how progressive 1:41:33.640 --> 1:41:39.120 the pro democracy movements actually are the legitimate Jesus sorry, 1:41:41.600 --> 1:41:43.960 the legitimacy of the dictatorship of the bosses, which was 1:41:44.040 --> 1:41:46.400 not up for dispute, you know, to to to to 1:41:46.520 --> 1:41:49.720 these sort of protmocracy movements, right, like democracy means a 1:41:49.760 --> 1:41:54.280 democratic state and not a democratic workplace. And this is 1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:59.320 this is the huge divide between what's happening at Tianeman 1:41:59.400 --> 1:42:03.560 and what's happening like everywhere else in the world. The 1:42:03.640 --> 1:42:07.000 workers a Tienemen are the only people left in this 1:42:07.360 --> 1:42:12.479 entire sort of like run of protmocracy movements that disagree. 1:42:13.000 --> 1:42:15.720 They are standing against not only that like every there's 1:42:15.720 --> 1:42:18.760 stending not only against their own governments against a lot 1:42:18.880 --> 1:42:21.240 of the students who are who are also like at 1:42:21.240 --> 1:42:24.800 these protests, they are standing against literally the entire type 1:42:24.840 --> 1:42:28.120 of history itself bye bye bye, you know, by by 1:42:28.160 --> 1:42:31.360 applying the principles of the protomocracy movements like their own concerns, right, 1:42:31.400 --> 1:42:35.680 which is skyrocketing inflation, mounting debts like rampant corruption to 1:42:35.720 --> 1:42:39.599 government officials like spy, rocketing and spiraling inequality and petty 1:42:39.600 --> 1:42:44.840 bureaucratic oppression. Beijing's working class had reinvented a old and 1:42:44.920 --> 1:42:48.000 now like largely forgotten tradition of democracy and the factory 1:42:48.080 --> 1:42:50.839 that I'm gonna I'm calling it democratic worker self management 1:42:50.840 --> 1:42:52.599 because there's no good name for it, and they're all 1:42:52.640 --> 1:42:58.280 kind of clunky. Fair. I mean, this is based on 1:42:58.360 --> 1:42:59.920 who these people were at the tide of the because 1:43:00.040 --> 1:43:02.280 said all of their names for things were pretty clinky. Yeah. Well, 1:43:02.320 --> 1:43:04.479 the thing is that they don't name like like this. 1:43:04.600 --> 1:43:07.240 And this is one of the things about Okay. One 1:43:07.280 --> 1:43:10.200 of the real problems with studying chairman, right, is that like, Okay, 1:43:10.520 --> 1:43:13.519 so we have really good accounts from the students, right, 1:43:13.560 --> 1:43:15.519 because some of the students flee and they're able to 1:43:15.560 --> 1:43:18.640 make it out. We have like jack shit basically from 1:43:18.680 --> 1:43:21.479 the workers we have. But what we do have is 1:43:21.640 --> 1:43:23.360 we have some of the we have some of the 1:43:23.439 --> 1:43:25.400 documents they produced, and we have a lot of interviews 1:43:25.439 --> 1:43:31.880 that we're done with with people there, and they I 1:43:31.920 --> 1:43:36.320 don't know that they have very very idiosyncratic ways of 1:43:36.439 --> 1:43:39.200 expressing what they believe, and so you know, you'll get 1:43:39.240 --> 1:43:40.880 things where like Okay, they're like, okay, wait, we we 1:43:40.960 --> 1:43:42.680 believe in the rule of law, right, and then the 1:43:42.800 --> 1:43:45.600 next sentence will be like, uh, we we we have 1:43:45.680 --> 1:43:47.920 calculated the exact amount of surplus value that has been 1:43:47.960 --> 1:43:50.400 distracted from us according to marks. And it's like what 1:43:52.320 --> 1:43:54.600 because Yeah, the thing that they're doing is like that 1:43:54.720 --> 1:43:57.960 they're they're they're synchronizing this new they're synchronizing sort of 1:43:58.040 --> 1:44:04.000 like a political tendency that's trying to address the sort 1:44:04.000 --> 1:44:05.800 of duel to Kadiships are dealing with right like there, 1:44:05.800 --> 1:44:07.519 because they're they're dealing at the same time with like 1:44:08.479 --> 1:44:10.479 this political to Katishi at the party has and also 1:44:10.560 --> 1:44:13.280 the fact that their bosses now like completely control everything 1:44:13.320 --> 1:44:19.080 that they do. And because of this, they you know, 1:44:19.240 --> 1:44:23.600 they they wind up being like the last or I 1:44:23.600 --> 1:44:26.120 guess technically second to last because Argentina happens, although that 1:44:26.200 --> 1:44:29.479 that's sort of convoluted method itself. But they're they're in 1:44:29.720 --> 1:44:32.920 the twentieth century, like they are the last people who 1:44:32.960 --> 1:44:36.720 are fighting for democracy in the factory. And this, like 1:44:36.880 --> 1:44:38.800 to a large state, is what Tiannem is actually about. 1:44:38.920 --> 1:44:41.439 It's it's the culmination of a century and a half 1:44:41.520 --> 1:44:44.719 long war between the democratic wing of the classical workers 1:44:44.840 --> 1:44:48.479 upment and like every single other ideology that exists, and 1:44:48.760 --> 1:44:51.360 these guys over over that century and a half long span, 1:44:51.360 --> 1:44:53.320 they're going to fight communists, are going to fight capitalistic, 1:44:53.360 --> 1:44:55.759 going to fight liberals and fascists and monarchies and republics 1:44:55.760 --> 1:45:00.200 and social democracies and theocracies, and at Tieneman are going 1:45:00.240 --> 1:45:04.240 to lose one more time. And that defeat, the fact 1:45:04.280 --> 1:45:06.400 that they lose here, the fact that these people get slaughtered, 1:45:06.400 --> 1:45:09.400 the fact that like their crushed so effectively that no 1:45:09.439 --> 1:45:11.200 one even remembers what they were, don't even remembers they 1:45:11.240 --> 1:45:13.800 exist or like much less like what they were fighting for. 1:45:14.720 --> 1:45:17.240 This defeat is the origin of the modern world. That 1:45:17.400 --> 1:45:20.479 one man ruling the factory, like the the individual single 1:45:20.560 --> 1:45:23.519 boss who has total control and power over you, is 1:45:24.000 --> 1:45:26.200 in in its sort of thousand forms is the author 1:45:26.240 --> 1:45:29.080 of the hell that is twenty one century. And when 1:45:29.160 --> 1:45:31.920 we come back from this commercial break, we are going 1:45:32.000 --> 1:45:33.960 to look at the international part of the struggle that 1:45:34.400 --> 1:45:38.519 Chanaman is sort of like the conclusion of. So here's 1:45:38.560 --> 1:45:43.040 some ads. Maybe here the job working at their distribution 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:49.040 center paying gig, and we're back to look at why 1:45:49.200 --> 1:45:53.720 you two also must live in the the the absolutely 1:45:53.880 --> 1:45:58.560 one man dictatorship in the factory. So it's it's not 1:45:58.720 --> 1:46:01.200 not not not not as much on man, it's the 1:46:01.280 --> 1:46:03.320 one algorithm you have to you have to listen to 1:46:03.400 --> 1:46:05.479 what your iPad tells you when you're walking through the 1:46:05.520 --> 1:46:11.080 Amazon distribution center. That's true. Yeah, they have. It is 1:46:11.080 --> 1:46:14.280 funny because it's like they've somehow made a worse version 1:46:14.360 --> 1:46:16.439 of it. It was like okay, yeah, it's like it's 1:46:16.439 --> 1:46:18.599 it's yeah, it's like okay, now, now now you were 1:46:18.720 --> 1:46:21.160 ruled by a computer whose whose job it is to 1:46:21.280 --> 1:46:23.920 make one person an extremely large amount of money. It's 1:46:23.960 --> 1:46:29.639 even for further like depersonalized and further disjointed from actually 1:46:29.720 --> 1:46:34.400 being a human. Yeah, it's it's I don't know that 1:46:34.520 --> 1:46:37.880 there's there's there's some metaphor here which if I wasn't 1:46:38.000 --> 1:46:42.760 like sick out of my mind about how like power depersonalizes, 1:46:42.800 --> 1:46:45.160 the dehumanizes you until the point where you replaced with 1:46:45.200 --> 1:46:48.360 the machine that you can make here. But I I 1:46:48.400 --> 1:46:51.600 don't know one in one in every two days the 1:46:51.640 --> 1:46:54.720 room or randomly starts binding on me. So yeah, I 1:46:55.080 --> 1:47:00.160 can't actually't do that. The lesson here, The lesson here 1:47:00.280 --> 1:47:03.599 is is that when you're thinking about factories and how 1:47:03.720 --> 1:47:06.600 bosses suck and how it's not great to work at 1:47:06.640 --> 1:47:08.360 a factory, just have a boss that tells you what 1:47:08.439 --> 1:47:10.439 to do. The lesson is that it can always get 1:47:10.479 --> 1:47:16.240 worse because it could always be a computer. Yeah, anyway, continue, 1:47:16.720 --> 1:47:19.280 So okay, So to get a sense of like what 1:47:19.520 --> 1:47:24.280 this fight is and like how how we got to Tiana, men, 1:47:25.080 --> 1:47:27.080 we need to go back to the Revolutions of eight, 1:47:28.200 --> 1:47:33.559 which is at first glance not like not an incredibly 1:47:33.600 --> 1:47:36.960 obvious place to start. Um. Okay, if if you want 1:47:37.000 --> 1:47:39.680 like a really detailed, like blow for blow account of 1:47:39.720 --> 1:47:43.000 the Revolutions of eight, go listen to the Revolutions podcast. 1:47:43.640 --> 1:47:46.479 It it's good. I am not gonna do it here 1:47:46.560 --> 1:47:49.920 because oh my god, there's so much stuff. But the 1:47:50.240 --> 1:47:54.680 very short version is that so in Atean forty eight. 1:47:54.720 --> 1:47:57.040 Across Europe, there's a bunch of revolutions that are collectively 1:47:57.120 --> 1:47:59.040 known while sometimes known as like the Springtime of the 1:47:59.080 --> 1:48:03.479 People's and this is this is the first revolence. This 1:48:03.560 --> 1:48:06.240 is the first wave revolutions where socialists are like a 1:48:06.360 --> 1:48:10.280 real thing. Um like Frederick angles, like if that angles 1:48:10.320 --> 1:48:12.479 like the marks and angles Angles is like on a 1:48:12.600 --> 1:48:17.679 barricade with a rifle. Fighting in Prussia, there's like, yeah, 1:48:18.080 --> 1:48:20.680 I'm not gonna sadly, I can't get into Augusva willage here, 1:48:20.720 --> 1:48:23.799 but like go go, go go google Augustva Village's he's wild. 1:48:24.160 --> 1:48:26.400 There's a huge revolution in France where they like that 1:48:26.479 --> 1:48:30.400 they finally deposed the king and you know this, there's 1:48:30.439 --> 1:48:35.040 this question here and as these revolutions look like they're winning, 1:48:35.360 --> 1:48:37.640 there's this question of how far democracy is going to 1:48:37.720 --> 1:48:40.280 go and what it's going to mean? Um, and yeah, 1:48:40.479 --> 1:48:42.960 you have a large thing you have in this This 1:48:43.120 --> 1:48:44.920 is in a lot of voice, very similar to what 1:48:45.000 --> 1:48:47.479 you're dealing with with in in China. In the nine 1:48:48.560 --> 1:48:50.439 Inside of France, you have to split, right, you have 1:48:50.520 --> 1:48:53.559 the split between you know, like the people who are 1:48:53.600 --> 1:48:55.559 like who are like French radicals, but in the sense 1:48:55.640 --> 1:48:59.120 of like the original French Revolution, who are you know, Okay, 1:48:59.160 --> 1:49:03.800 they want like they want an elected democracy. They absolutely 1:49:03.880 --> 1:49:07.400 do not want to like deal with the fact that 1:49:07.560 --> 1:49:10.640 that the workplace is not a democracy. And then you know, 1:49:10.800 --> 1:49:12.160 and you have you have a bunch of socialists, and 1:49:12.160 --> 1:49:15.639 the socialists are like, hey, can we do something about 1:49:15.640 --> 1:49:18.000 like property relations and like the fact that there's a 1:49:18.040 --> 1:49:22.200 bunch of poor people with no jobs, and you know, 1:49:22.280 --> 1:49:27.040 and the socialists gets slaughtered, but you know, they don't die. 1:49:27.320 --> 1:49:35.800 I mean, okay, you just said they Okay, so a 1:49:35.880 --> 1:49:38.000 lot of these people get horribly slaughtered, but a lot 1:49:38.040 --> 1:49:43.280 of them escape and like and and a lot of 1:49:43.320 --> 1:49:44.640 the lead well, I mean there's an interesting story here, 1:49:44.640 --> 1:49:46.280 Like a lot of the leaders like live on. A 1:49:46.360 --> 1:49:48.920 lot of these people, like, for example, a bunch of 1:49:48.960 --> 1:49:50.760 people flee to the US and they wind up being 1:49:50.880 --> 1:49:52.720 like the like a lot of the officer core of 1:49:52.760 --> 1:49:54.639 the Union Army and in the Civil War is made 1:49:54.680 --> 1:49:56.560 up by these by these socialists who like had to 1:49:56.600 --> 1:49:59.519 flee after the revolutions failed and like Prussia and stuff. 1:50:00.880 --> 1:50:05.360 But yeah, so but many of them do in fact 1:50:05.560 --> 1:50:08.760 die die. Yeah, it doesn't go great for them. And 1:50:08.920 --> 1:50:10.720 and you know, and you get to see one of 1:50:10.760 --> 1:50:12.680 the other things that's going to happen a lot, which 1:50:12.760 --> 1:50:16.040 is that. Okay, so like the the sort of like 1:50:16.120 --> 1:50:20.519 the French like like the French radicals who are like 1:50:20.680 --> 1:50:23.760 pro capitalism but also pro democracy, like allied with the 1:50:23.760 --> 1:50:27.240 conservative factions. And then they also all get killed when Napoleon, 1:50:28.640 --> 1:50:31.160 Napoleon the Third takes power. But man, it's it's really 1:50:31.200 --> 1:50:33.599 it's really it's really hard to root for someone here 1:50:33.680 --> 1:50:36.519 and that yeah, I know, it's those it's like and 1:50:36.600 --> 1:50:39.920 then this is really like like the revolution produces his 1:50:39.960 --> 1:50:42.160 own grave diggers ship, Like, oh, hey, what did you 1:50:42.280 --> 1:50:44.560 expect was going to happen when you allied with like 1:50:45.600 --> 1:50:50.840 the Landlord's end I Napoleon English, this good thing, this 1:50:51.000 --> 1:50:56.679 mistake will never made again. No good good thing. Yeah yeah, 1:50:58.439 --> 1:51:03.519 pay no mind to the rest of the episode anyway. Continue. So, yeah, 1:51:03.640 --> 1:51:06.160 you have the split between people who want electoral democracy 1:51:06.200 --> 1:51:09.000 but you know, doctorships in the workplace and these people 1:51:09.040 --> 1:51:12.320 who want like democracy in the workplace. And this also 1:51:12.400 --> 1:51:15.720 prefigures to split inside of socialism itself, um for for 1:51:15.800 --> 1:51:17.960 you know, for for for the and this isn't even 1:51:18.120 --> 1:51:21.479 I I like in my script, I say, like for 1:51:21.720 --> 1:51:24.840 for for the most radical factions of socialism, you know, 1:51:24.960 --> 1:51:26.800 like in control over the means of production, which is 1:51:26.840 --> 1:51:29.679 like the thing that you want. Means that like production 1:51:29.760 --> 1:51:32.200 is controlled either by like free associations and workers like 1:51:32.880 --> 1:51:36.000 you know, direct democratic unions. This is later called syndicalism 1:51:36.120 --> 1:51:39.000 or like workers councils, and that that's you know, I say, 1:51:39.040 --> 1:51:40.599 it's the most radical faction like that. That's a very 1:51:40.680 --> 1:51:42.880 popular conception of like what this is going to be. 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:46.000 Like if you read marks like Mars is like, oh yeah, 1:51:46.040 --> 1:51:49.559 free associations a workers. Sure. But you know, as as 1:51:49.680 --> 1:51:51.639 the sort of like eighteen footies roll into the eighteen 1:51:51.640 --> 1:51:54.439 sixties and the eighteen seventies, there's this faction of the 1:51:54.560 --> 1:51:58.080 movement that becomes just like obsessed with with the bureaucratic 1:51:58.160 --> 1:52:01.080 technologies of the states, and you know, like they they 1:52:01.280 --> 1:52:05.160 they they watch the state really get involved in the 1:52:05.240 --> 1:52:07.719 economy in a way that it like kind of hasn't before. 1:52:08.520 --> 1:52:11.360 Then they they over the course of sort of industrialization, 1:52:11.439 --> 1:52:14.080 they watch with like incredible envy as they see like 1:52:14.880 --> 1:52:17.559 these incredibly elaborate like planning schemes. They see the state 1:52:17.600 --> 1:52:20.400 building roads and canals and railroads and then entire cities 1:52:20.479 --> 1:52:23.000 with these like complex electrical grids and like gas lions 1:52:23.040 --> 1:52:28.280 and plumbing systems, and especially trains, like specifically trains. This 1:52:28.439 --> 1:52:32.200 drives them all completely insane, and they become they begin 1:52:32.280 --> 1:52:36.000 to believe that like a single centralized planning body, like 1:52:36.080 --> 1:52:38.639 non amercrat association of workers, like a single centralized state 1:52:38.640 --> 1:52:41.240 planning body can like you know, bring about the long 1:52:41.320 --> 1:52:45.479 saw after like cooperative commonwealth of socialism, and all all 1:52:45.520 --> 1:52:47.560 these people get they get obsessed with like such a 1:52:47.640 --> 1:52:50.800 planning right, and this becomes this starts to sort of 1:52:50.880 --> 1:52:54.759 like consume more and more of the left um in Germany, 1:52:54.800 --> 1:52:57.160 which is home to like the powerful German Social Democratic Party, 1:52:57.600 --> 1:52:59.720 which is like probably the most powerful socialist part in 1:52:59.720 --> 1:53:02.200 the world. This point, the socialists become divided into two camps. 1:53:02.240 --> 1:53:05.160 There there's the revisionists led by Edward Bernstein, who like 1:53:05.600 --> 1:53:09.120 he like renounces Marxism and revolution and like entirely in 1:53:09.200 --> 1:53:11.679 favor of performing capitalism in the state from like within. 1:53:12.479 --> 1:53:14.200 And then you know, you have these orthodox Marxists that 1:53:14.240 --> 1:53:16.880 are like led by Kola Kotski, whose whole thing is 1:53:16.880 --> 1:53:19.640 that he hates Bernstein and like the only thing that 1:53:19.720 --> 1:53:21.960 these two people, that these two groups agree on is that, 1:53:22.240 --> 1:53:25.360 I the only thing they agree on is the bureaucratic 1:53:25.439 --> 1:53:27.320 state planning is the thing you're supposed to be fighting 1:53:27.360 --> 1:53:30.840 for and not like democratic workplaces. And this leads the 1:53:30.960 --> 1:53:34.960 STP to like they they do a lot of things 1:53:35.080 --> 1:53:37.760 that are like disastrous. Um, one of the things that 1:53:37.760 --> 1:53:40.559 they wind up doing a lot is like actively working 1:53:40.600 --> 1:53:43.320 with the bosses to like destroy the like workplace autonomy 1:53:43.360 --> 1:53:45.920 for their own unions. So like they'll there'll be things 1:53:45.920 --> 1:53:48.160 where it's like like there's like there's a famous examples, 1:53:48.160 --> 1:53:49.280 Like there's like a like a I think they're like 1:53:49.320 --> 1:53:50.840 an they're on beta workers and I think they make 1:53:50.960 --> 1:53:53.559 knives or something. And they have a lot of control 1:53:53.600 --> 1:53:56.360 of the production process, right, they can control like how 1:53:56.479 --> 1:53:58.719 much life gets produced the process like how it works, 1:53:58.840 --> 1:54:01.120 like what they're actually doing. And the STP is like, no, 1:54:01.479 --> 1:54:03.519 this is bad because it's inefficient, and so they like 1:54:03.880 --> 1:54:08.280 basically crush their own union and this this goes in 1:54:08.360 --> 1:54:12.800 really disastrous directions. But we're still the single person who 1:54:12.840 --> 1:54:15.479 becomes like the most obsessed with like the potential of 1:54:15.520 --> 1:54:20.120 bureautic state planning is uh one, very very very obscure 1:54:20.160 --> 1:54:25.160 guy named Vladimir Elias Lenin, who I don't expect anyone 1:54:25.200 --> 1:54:29.880 to have heard of front of the Pod. I just 1:54:29.960 --> 1:54:35.960 had len Oh, that's funny. Yeah. So, as David Gravord 1:54:36.000 --> 1:54:39.560 points out, Lennon's obsession with like the German postal Service 1:54:40.280 --> 1:54:43.000 is such that like, okay, so he writes a very 1:54:43.000 --> 1:54:44.960 famous book about like what a future social state is 1:54:45.000 --> 1:54:46.839 going to be, called State and Revolution, and like almost 1:54:46.880 --> 1:54:48.720 all of it is a lie. But he also says 1:54:48.800 --> 1:54:52.640 this in it Um. A witty German social democrat of 1:54:52.720 --> 1:54:56.760 the eighteen seventies called the postal service an example of 1:54:56.840 --> 1:54:59.920 the socialist economic system. This is very true. At present. 1:55:00.120 --> 1:55:02.800 The postal service is a business organized along the lines 1:55:02.840 --> 1:55:05.600 of a state capitalist monopoly. Bab the imperially, this is 1:55:05.640 --> 1:55:07.960 the whole thing about imperialism is making everything off of this. 1:55:10.520 --> 1:55:14.160 But so to organize the whole national economy on the 1:55:14.240 --> 1:55:17.160 lines of the postal service, so that the technicians, foreim 1:55:17.240 --> 1:55:19.600 and bookkeepers, as well as all officials that received no 1:55:19.760 --> 1:55:23.960 salaries higher than a workman's wage, all under the control 1:55:24.040 --> 1:55:26.680 and leadership of the armed proletariat. This is our immediate aim. 1:55:27.480 --> 1:55:29.280 And if you think about what this means for about 1:55:29.280 --> 1:55:33.320 five seconds, right, what he's saying is that socialism is 1:55:33.680 --> 1:55:40.560 the entire economy being planned by a bureacratic state. And 1:55:41.640 --> 1:55:45.960 you know this this like this sits off this like 1:55:46.080 --> 1:55:48.320 massive series of confrontations with the part of the workers 1:55:48.360 --> 1:55:51.600 movement who you know, like what to control the work 1:55:51.680 --> 1:55:55.320 that they do, and you know, like like make I'm 1:55:55.320 --> 1:55:57.280 like you know that the people who like who think 1:55:57.400 --> 1:55:59.200 that like the revolution means that they're actually going to 1:55:59.240 --> 1:56:00.840 be able to make decision over their work and not 1:56:01.080 --> 1:56:03.520 you know, just like work for like a slightly different 1:56:03.520 --> 1:56:07.440 set of bureaucrats. And this struggle between you know this 1:56:07.600 --> 1:56:10.480 the sort of like new socialist bureaucrats and like democracy 1:56:10.520 --> 1:56:14.040 and the workers movement is you know, it's it's it's 1:56:14.040 --> 1:56:15.560 an enormous part of the struggle that happens here. And 1:56:15.600 --> 1:56:18.840 there's there's like another version of it happening between the 1:56:18.880 --> 1:56:21.680 workers movement itself and the capitalist state like in the 1:56:21.760 --> 1:56:25.520 eighteen eighties, um, the workers movements in like in Italy 1:56:25.720 --> 1:56:29.920 and Germany and like Frances that's the extent that they have. 1:56:30.000 --> 1:56:32.800 These they form these parties that are called like states 1:56:32.840 --> 1:56:35.920 within a state, and you know, these things are these 1:56:36.040 --> 1:56:38.760 massive networks of these workers institutions. They have like free schools, 1:56:38.840 --> 1:56:41.640 they have workers associations, they have like friendly societies, they 1:56:41.680 --> 1:56:44.160 have libraries, they have theaters, they have like unions, have 1:56:44.280 --> 1:56:47.200 co ops, they have like neighborhood associations, they have tenant unions, 1:56:47.240 --> 1:56:51.160 initial aids societies, and you know, and these things are 1:56:51.240 --> 1:56:54.880 all run democratically by like by by the workers who 1:56:54.960 --> 1:56:58.200 formed the associations, and you know, and like the people 1:56:58.200 --> 1:57:01.320 who are doing this are like you know, the hope 1:57:01.400 --> 1:57:02.640 is that like this is going to be the basis 1:57:02.640 --> 1:57:04.440 for the new social society. Right, It's like, okay, we 1:57:04.560 --> 1:57:06.680 we can just come together and like do this stuff. 1:57:07.320 --> 1:57:09.000 We can do it democratically, and we can administer this 1:57:09.000 --> 1:57:15.560 stuff ourselves and the and these things are enormously popular. Um, 1:57:15.760 --> 1:57:19.120 and you know, and this like terrifies the sort of 1:57:19.160 --> 1:57:21.960 old ruling class. Um. And Otto von Bismarck, who's the 1:57:22.040 --> 1:57:24.760 guy basically running the German state in this period, like 1:57:26.240 --> 1:57:28.760 his solution to this is to create like bureaucratic state 1:57:28.840 --> 1:57:31.000 run versions of like all of these things. So he 1:57:31.360 --> 1:57:34.240 creates like state run library, state run theaters, like state 1:57:34.360 --> 1:57:37.600 run welfare services, and he's using these as as like 1:57:37.800 --> 1:57:40.000 a replacement to the sort of workers institutions. And he 1:57:40.280 --> 1:57:42.920 has this great line where he tells an American observer quote, 1:57:43.440 --> 1:57:47.000 my idea was to bribe the working classes, or shall 1:57:47.080 --> 1:57:49.200 I say, to win them over, to regard the state 1:57:49.240 --> 1:57:51.880 as a social institution existing for their own sake and 1:57:52.000 --> 1:57:56.760 invested in and interested in their welfare. And like this works. 1:57:56.800 --> 1:57:58.320 This is this is an enormous success. This is one 1:57:58.320 --> 1:58:02.080 of the greatest propagandic ures ever because like it's it's 1:58:02.120 --> 1:58:04.520 so successful in convincing people that the thing that they're 1:58:04.560 --> 1:58:06.720 fighting for is like the state bureacratic version of this thing, 1:58:06.800 --> 1:58:09.120 and not the version where they do it themselves. That 1:58:09.280 --> 1:58:13.920 like when when the socialists like take power, they confuse Bismarcks, 1:58:14.000 --> 1:58:16.680 like literally the welfare state bribe thing that he liked 1:58:16.720 --> 1:58:18.720 made to buy off the movements, Like they confused that 1:58:18.800 --> 1:58:22.280 with socialism itself. And like to this day everyone believes this. 1:58:22.480 --> 1:58:26.400 It's like it's it's I don't know, I lose my 1:58:26.480 --> 1:58:29.880 mind constantly over this because all of these things that 1:58:29.960 --> 1:58:33.040 bisinbarg developed like specifically to destroy the socialist movement. Everyone 1:58:33.120 --> 1:58:36.240 was like, oh my god, this is socialism. It's like no, no, 1:58:36.680 --> 1:58:42.160 please stop. And you know, and this is really effective, 1:58:42.400 --> 1:58:44.840 particularly on the leadership of the movement. But like the 1:58:44.920 --> 1:58:48.960 actual like people in these parties, like in these movements, 1:58:49.200 --> 1:58:51.200 don't forget it. And and as as the sort of 1:58:51.280 --> 1:58:53.240 like twenty cent drawstore closed and you get like the 1:58:53.840 --> 1:58:55.800 so as as the nineteenth century draws too closed, and 1:58:55.840 --> 1:58:58.760 you get like the twentieth century. The workers who are 1:58:58.840 --> 1:59:03.560 like doing the uprisings are are not sort of like 1:59:03.760 --> 1:59:07.160 like the you know, the workers who are doing the 1:59:07.240 --> 1:59:10.000 uprisings haven't like drinking the kool aid. And the thing 1:59:10.080 --> 1:59:12.080 that they do immediately when they start doing uprisings is 1:59:12.160 --> 1:59:15.600 they start building these democratic institutions, but particularly workers councils 1:59:16.360 --> 1:59:18.200 um the most famous of these are like other workers 1:59:18.280 --> 1:59:21.280 councils that form sort of spontaneously in the Russian revolutions 1:59:21.280 --> 1:59:24.880 of nineteen seventeen. These are like this is actually like 1:59:24.920 --> 1:59:27.240 this is what like the they're called soviets because soviet 1:59:27.360 --> 1:59:29.200 is just like the word for council in Russian. And 1:59:29.320 --> 1:59:33.520 these things are originally these like ad hoc strike committees, 1:59:33.600 --> 1:59:35.960 and then they eventually become these like formalized elect like 1:59:36.120 --> 1:59:38.800 elected bodies of representatives from like the various factories who 1:59:38.800 --> 1:59:41.160 are like coordinating a strike and okay, so not you know, 1:59:41.240 --> 1:59:46.520 five they lose and they all die, but inteventeen, uh, 1:59:46.760 --> 1:59:49.640 they do this again and they form the Soviets again, 1:59:49.680 --> 1:59:53.400 and this time the councils start to take like a 1:59:53.520 --> 1:59:57.440 larger role in coordinating production directly and you know, coordinating 1:59:57.440 --> 2:00:00.840 between different factories and industries, and they they turn into 2:00:00.840 --> 2:00:03.200 this sort of like counterpower thing to the new government. 2:00:04.160 --> 2:00:07.280 And this kicks off this open period of warfare that 2:00:07.320 --> 2:00:11.760 stretches like literally from Italy to Argentina between the different 2:00:11.800 --> 2:00:14.640 socialist factions who like people like the different factions of 2:00:14.680 --> 2:00:17.760 this movement who want democracy in the factory. And this 2:00:18.080 --> 2:00:20.920 like a lot newly formed like anti democratic alliance of 2:00:20.960 --> 2:00:24.680 like social Democrats, Bolsheviks and capitalists who like you know, 2:00:25.000 --> 2:00:27.240 are like okay, well some of them are in favor 2:00:27.280 --> 2:00:29.520 of like you can have Okay, there's a whole range 2:00:29.560 --> 2:00:32.160 of this thing, right, Like. The thing that unites all 2:00:32.240 --> 2:00:34.960 of these movements, the social Democrats, that Bolsheviks, the capitalists 2:00:34.960 --> 2:00:38.560 and later the fascist is that they like emphatically like 2:00:38.800 --> 2:00:41.880 do not want democracy in the factory, and they're willing 2:00:41.920 --> 2:00:44.000 to put aside their differences to make sure it doesn't happen, 2:00:44.880 --> 2:00:46.960 but you know, there's still there's still a huge fight 2:00:47.000 --> 2:00:49.760 that happens to between between nineteen y you get works 2:00:49.880 --> 2:00:53.560 councils in we get workers councils in Germany, Poland, Austria, Ukraine, 2:00:53.640 --> 2:00:57.760 Ireland and Ireland. There's there's these like two giant revolts 2:00:57.760 --> 2:01:02.840 by synthicalist workers unions in Brazilian Argentina, and these all 2:01:02.880 --> 2:01:05.280 get crushed um in Italy. Italy has like one of 2:01:05.320 --> 2:01:08.280 the most intense conflicts between these like a lot of 2:01:08.320 --> 2:01:10.880 cynicalis in the Italian state, and they have this this 2:01:10.960 --> 2:01:13.680 really famous like set of factory occupations where instead of 2:01:13.760 --> 2:01:16.080 like so like before those people would go on strike, right, 2:01:16.080 --> 2:01:19.280 you go on strike and you leave your factory. And 2:01:19.520 --> 2:01:21.160 in Italy they were like, okay, well what if we 2:01:21.280 --> 2:01:22.880 just stayed in the factory and took it over so 2:01:22.920 --> 2:01:25.240 that they couldn't like just like a restarted production with scabs, 2:01:25.480 --> 2:01:28.600 and we now control the factory. And there's this huge 2:01:28.640 --> 2:01:31.240 wave of it in in Italy in the late nineteen 2:01:32.000 --> 2:01:37.600 writeen like teens and twenties, and you know, it looks 2:01:37.640 --> 2:01:39.760 like for a little for like a bit like it 2:01:39.960 --> 2:01:41.760 really looks like they're going to bring down the government, 2:01:42.560 --> 2:01:45.400 but the factory occupations get crushed. But they don't. They 2:01:45.400 --> 2:01:47.080 don't get crushed by the government. They get crushed by 2:01:47.080 --> 2:01:49.280 the Italian Socialist Party and like their union, the General 2:01:49.280 --> 2:01:53.400 Confederation of Labor, and like this is how fascistm wins 2:01:53.400 --> 2:01:55.000 in Italy, like to a large extent. It's that like 2:01:55.680 --> 2:01:57.880 when when like you know, and it happens in Germany too, 2:01:57.920 --> 2:02:00.880 It's like when and when when the sort of the 2:02:00.920 --> 2:02:04.120 social democrats and the capitalists are faced with this possibility 2:02:04.200 --> 2:02:07.400 that like workers could take over the factories, the social 2:02:07.440 --> 2:02:10.640 Democrats turn on them and just kill them all. And 2:02:10.760 --> 2:02:12.560 the problem with that is that like okay, well who 2:02:12.600 --> 2:02:14.280 who who who do you do the killing with the 2:02:14.360 --> 2:02:16.800 answer is the fascists, and then the social Democrats like 2:02:16.880 --> 2:02:20.280 themselves all get exterminated by the fascist It's it's just 2:02:20.400 --> 2:02:22.880 like you know, it is it is a is A 2:02:23.040 --> 2:02:24.920 is a terrible cycle that we're going to see like 2:02:26.360 --> 2:02:31.120 literally over and over and over again. Um yeah it's bad. 2:02:31.280 --> 2:02:36.200 Um that sounds not great? Yeah yeah, do do do 2:02:36.280 --> 2:02:42.160 you know who else will slaughter your your factory council? Oh? Oh, 2:02:42.360 --> 2:02:46.600 I actually know this one. M alright, Carrison, go, we 2:02:46.680 --> 2:02:49.680 have a few options here. There is are our good 2:02:49.720 --> 2:02:52.360 friends at the Washington State Patrol. Um, if you're trying 2:02:52.360 --> 2:02:54.280 to set up a highway business next to the highway 2:02:54.680 --> 2:02:57.520 and run run video workers, cancel State Patrol come up, 2:02:57.560 --> 2:03:01.520 be like not on this highway. You're done. Um probably 2:03:01.520 --> 2:03:05.960 also like Amazon or something, who knows, and we're back 2:03:06.720 --> 2:03:12.080 to see you know, okay, okay, well we are back 2:03:12.160 --> 2:03:14.440 to see like the worst defeats that they're going to have, 2:03:14.680 --> 2:03:18.240 that that like the people who want like a factory 2:03:18.280 --> 2:03:20.360 council are going to have in this period, which for 2:03:20.600 --> 2:03:22.880 once actually has nothing to do with Amazon or the 2:03:22.920 --> 2:03:27.560 capitalists whatsoever, which is that like the worst balling they're 2:03:27.560 --> 2:03:31.080 gonna get is from Lenin and the Bolsheviks, who I 2:03:31.600 --> 2:03:33.600 don't know how many people sort of like know the 2:03:33.680 --> 2:03:36.520 history of Russian Revolution, but like the factory councils are 2:03:36.600 --> 2:03:39.560 the people who like basically put the Bolsheviks in power 2:03:39.600 --> 2:03:42.480 in the first place, like to a large extents, like 2:03:42.560 --> 2:03:44.720 they're there's a there are the people who like were 2:03:44.800 --> 2:03:47.400 the shock troops of this and like literally the moment 2:03:47.520 --> 2:03:49.840 Lendin takes power, she starts under buying the Soviets. Um 2:03:50.280 --> 2:03:54.160 he publishes this thing like like like three or four 2:03:54.240 --> 2:03:57.120 days after that trial revolution, he publishes this thing called 2:03:57.120 --> 2:03:59.120 the draft to cree on workers control, which is like, 2:04:00.080 --> 2:04:02.440 you know, he he basically is like he's he's trying 2:04:02.480 --> 2:04:05.160 to like shift power from these councils to the bullshit 2:04:05.280 --> 2:04:08.879 party in the state. And this doesn't really work initially 2:04:09.040 --> 2:04:14.280 because these groups are like pretty powerful. But in you know, 2:04:14.360 --> 2:04:18.120 he publicly Lenin's like, no, we draw drive power from 2:04:18.160 --> 2:04:20.800 the Soviets, like where where where the people who support 2:04:20.960 --> 2:04:23.240 these councils, But then like Lennon's, he's like shipping away 2:04:23.280 --> 2:04:26.440 from them. And then in en he writes this thing. 2:04:26.560 --> 2:04:29.800 He writes this this this paragraph from the Immediate Task 2:04:29.840 --> 2:04:33.000 the Soviet Government, which is like one of the wildest 2:04:33.040 --> 2:04:35.880 things I've ever read in my life. I was just 2:04:36.000 --> 2:04:41.520 saying a lot, it's it's wild, it is She's okay. 2:04:42.080 --> 2:04:46.480 Unquestioning submission to a single will is absolutely necessary for 2:04:46.520 --> 2:04:48.760 the success of labor processes that are based on large 2:04:48.800 --> 2:04:52.320 scale machine industry. Today, the revolution demands and the interests 2:04:52.320 --> 2:04:55.440 of socialism that the masses, unquestioning lee obey the single 2:04:55.520 --> 2:05:00.080 will of the leaders of the labor process, which is 2:05:00.200 --> 2:05:06.960 like what what how how about you explain to our 2:05:07.040 --> 2:05:10.160 good viewers why that is so bonkers, Like okay, some 2:05:10.280 --> 2:05:11.760 of them might just hear that and be like, oh 2:05:12.000 --> 2:05:15.200 leftist words cool, moving on, even just the first two 2:05:15.240 --> 2:05:19.320 words unquestioning, Yeah, makes me like that, but like a 2:05:19.400 --> 2:05:21.760 questioning submission. The whole thing about like the masses must 2:05:21.880 --> 2:05:25.440 unquestionably obey the will of the single leader. Like what 2:05:26.640 --> 2:05:30.520 this is like, like what is happening? This is you know, 2:05:31.280 --> 2:05:34.040 and the thing that's happening here is that Lennon. Lennon 2:05:34.240 --> 2:05:38.680 is being really candid about what it means for there 2:05:38.720 --> 2:05:41.800 to be a boss, Like what it means for there 2:05:41.840 --> 2:05:44.000 to be someone who's position is above you that can 2:05:44.120 --> 2:05:46.040 order you to do literally whatever they want, and if 2:05:46.080 --> 2:05:49.600 you don't obey them, like bad things happen and you 2:05:49.720 --> 2:05:53.720 start or get shot. Yeah, she's she's she's incredible candid 2:05:53.720 --> 2:05:55.400 about this, right like this, this, this, this is what 2:05:55.640 --> 2:05:58.200 like having a boss means. It means like questioning submission 2:05:58.200 --> 2:06:00.400 to the single will of the leader. This, which is 2:06:00.480 --> 2:06:02.400 like this, this is how I talked about Sophie all 2:06:02.440 --> 2:06:08.360 the time. Yeah, well, shaking her head, I'm with you, 2:06:08.440 --> 2:06:14.839 Sophie campaign scare that Yeah, You're welcome, whatever you say, Sophie. 2:06:15.560 --> 2:06:23.240 Thanks scare God. I'm thinking about this. There's this line, um, 2:06:24.360 --> 2:06:26.320 it's sort of sent actually related to the story I 2:06:26.360 --> 2:06:28.320 read this thing once about so the workers who took 2:06:28.360 --> 2:06:30.840 over the surban actually think it was the students shore 2:06:30.840 --> 2:06:33.920 of a bunch of students like take over this uh, 2:06:34.160 --> 2:06:37.280 like like the like the like the big academy in 2:06:37.560 --> 2:06:41.920 in Paris, and they send this like I think it's 2:06:41.960 --> 2:06:46.040 a telegram to like the Chinese embassy, and like the 2:06:46.240 --> 2:06:49.160 end of it is I think if I'm remembering the 2:06:49.240 --> 2:06:52.680 exact words correctly, it's uh, the revolution will not be 2:06:52.760 --> 2:06:55.640 complete until the revolution will not be complete until the 2:06:55.720 --> 2:06:57.800 last capitalist is hung with the entrails of the last 2:06:57.840 --> 2:07:06.680 bureaucrat predibly hot yet was wild. That's that's the thing 2:07:06.760 --> 2:07:09.920 this brought to mind for some reason. But you know, 2:07:10.680 --> 2:07:12.640 I mean going back to sort of Lenin and his 2:07:12.680 --> 2:07:15.600 like unquestioning like submission to the single word, like he's 2:07:15.600 --> 2:07:17.600 more candid about what like one man rule in the 2:07:17.680 --> 2:07:19.840 factory or like having a boss you have to obey 2:07:20.280 --> 2:07:23.800 like means, but the system is describing like isn't different 2:07:24.040 --> 2:07:27.160 than any other political system, like Bolshevik rule in the 2:07:27.240 --> 2:07:31.040 factory like isn't really different than capital, social democratic or 2:07:31.080 --> 2:07:34.240 fascist rule. And you know, the movement for democracy and 2:07:34.280 --> 2:07:37.960 the factory as you know, as as as these people 2:07:37.960 --> 2:07:40.160 are crossed, especially in Cross the Nation twenty one, like 2:07:41.280 --> 2:07:43.520 from for Democracy in the Factory is faced by four 2:07:43.800 --> 2:07:45.960 implacable enemies who are willing to put aside all those 2:07:45.960 --> 2:07:49.560 their ideological differences to ensure that like no one ever 2:07:50.480 --> 2:07:53.840 like gets to control their workplace. And you know, and 2:07:53.920 --> 2:07:55.880 as as the twenties blend into early nine thirties, like 2:07:55.920 --> 2:07:58.520 the movement seemed to have disappeared, but they didn't. They 2:07:58.560 --> 2:08:01.360 absolutely didn't even know even though they got murdered by 2:08:01.360 --> 2:08:05.560 the fascist, the communist, social democrats and the capitalists, they're 2:08:05.600 --> 2:08:07.800 gonna be back next episode to do like twelve more 2:08:07.880 --> 2:08:12.240 revolutions and yeah that that that's that that that that 2:08:12.440 --> 2:08:14.840 that come come come back tomorrow for us talking about 2:08:14.880 --> 2:08:18.160 like why these revolutions happens, what the ruling class did 2:08:18.200 --> 2:08:21.120 to stop them. And then yeah, the lead up to 2:08:21.160 --> 2:08:23.160 Tianamen Square to see the sort of like the the 2:08:23.200 --> 2:08:27.680 final standard of Chinese working class and yeah, like get 2:08:27.760 --> 2:08:50.360 to what Tianeman actually was. What a Cliff Sanker pod cast. Yeah, 2:08:50.520 --> 2:08:55.640 that that counts as an intro. Look, yes, we've we've 2:08:55.720 --> 2:08:57.880 we've now started the podcast. The podcast that we are 2:08:57.920 --> 2:09:02.080 starting is it could happen here. And I it's me 2:09:02.160 --> 2:09:05.640 because for long I'm I'm doing I'm doing the host thing, 2:09:06.440 --> 2:09:08.240 and I have a bunch of other people with me 2:09:08.320 --> 2:09:12.120 who do a lot of things. I have Garrison, Yes, 2:09:12.240 --> 2:09:18.760 I have suren Yes, and I have Sophie, our lovely boss. 2:09:18.960 --> 2:09:26.320 Sophie lictor bed all phrase on high your words, not mine, 2:09:28.320 --> 2:09:35.800 so weird. I did not enjoy that at all my takeover. 2:09:37.520 --> 2:09:42.440 So so Sophie unfortunately, fortunately, unfortunately lacks to sheer ruthlessness 2:09:42.560 --> 2:09:46.480 to crush the workers movement. Well we will see. Yeah 2:09:47.520 --> 2:10:01.360 that relates to be determined. I don't buy it, so Sophie, 2:10:01.440 --> 2:10:05.760 Sophie is very sad. I'm sorry, Sophie. Um So, when 2:10:05.760 --> 2:10:09.080 when we last left off Lennon, Lennon has, like in theory, 2:10:09.280 --> 2:10:11.960 crushed last sort of remaining factions of like the workers 2:10:12.200 --> 2:10:14.480 but who want democracy the factories. But unfortunately for the 2:10:14.520 --> 2:10:17.640 Leninist like literally no many how no matter how many 2:10:17.680 --> 2:10:19.879 workers they kill, and they are going to kill enormous 2:10:19.960 --> 2:10:22.720 numbers of workers. The demand for democracy and the factory 2:10:22.800 --> 2:10:25.720 like just refuses to die. But for over a hundred years, 2:10:25.760 --> 2:10:27.800 the development of the sort of mass factory system and 2:10:27.880 --> 2:10:30.520 logistical infrastructure that you need to support it, maybe most 2:10:30.560 --> 2:10:34.200 importantly coal mines and railroads that use the transport stuff 2:10:34.680 --> 2:10:38.440 generate this incredibly militant working class that sees you know, 2:10:38.560 --> 2:10:41.280 democratic control over the workplaces like the fundamental aspect of 2:10:41.280 --> 2:10:45.560 its liberation. Um. Ideologically, this is you know, this is 2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:48.360 this is manifested in like a series of interlocking beliefs 2:10:48.520 --> 2:10:50.600 about like the nature of the working class and like 2:10:50.720 --> 2:10:54.040 what class society is um, all of which are sort 2:10:54.080 --> 2:10:59.800 of necessary components of this. Like it becomes this like 2:11:00.000 --> 2:11:03.000 incredibly like this like instinctive formation of workers council at 2:11:03.040 --> 2:11:06.360 the moment like an uprising happens. And this is something 2:11:06.400 --> 2:11:08.640 that that's very interesting about about the twentieth century. Is it, 2:11:08.760 --> 2:11:11.560 Like yeah, like what when whenever there's like a crisis, 2:11:11.640 --> 2:11:14.640 someone someone like like everyone in the factory is like, okay, 2:11:14.640 --> 2:11:17.000 we're we we've taken control of the factory now like 2:11:17.560 --> 2:11:20.360 we we were forming a council, were forming a giant assembly, 2:11:20.680 --> 2:11:23.200 and like we don't do this anymore, and we're gonna 2:11:23.200 --> 2:11:24.760 come back to like why we don't do this anymore? 2:11:24.800 --> 2:11:27.920 But like this hasn't happened, Like the last time it 2:11:28.000 --> 2:11:30.880 happened was like in Argentine and two dozen't one and 2:11:31.120 --> 2:11:33.120 I don't even know if Garrison Garrison might have been 2:11:33.160 --> 2:11:40.360 alive for that, thanks, But like it's well, I will say. 2:11:40.360 --> 2:11:43.440 The other time it does happen is when after after 2:11:43.560 --> 2:11:46.600 a recording session, when our boss Sophie leaves me, me 2:11:46.680 --> 2:11:49.120 and Chris will stay on the line to talk, usually 2:11:49.160 --> 2:11:51.680 about Star Wars, and that in a way kind of 2:11:51.840 --> 2:11:54.720 is a workers council just for the factory of podcasting. Yeah, 2:11:55.280 --> 2:12:00.280 we talked about Star Wars in front of me. I 2:12:00.360 --> 2:12:07.200 feel so bad for next next next time, puppy face, 2:12:08.800 --> 2:12:13.280 it's okay, featuring your petite borshebat tactics won't work on me. 2:12:16.160 --> 2:12:20.040 Oh god, we all all the people on the separddit 2:12:20.040 --> 2:12:21.520 who think that we hate Sophie or going to just 2:12:21.600 --> 2:12:25.520 have a field day with this episode. Concy is my 2:12:25.800 --> 2:12:32.800 favorite recurring conspiracy. That's a real conspiracy. O. Man, wow, 2:12:32.880 --> 2:12:34.600 I have a lot of cutry up on to you. 2:12:34.960 --> 2:12:39.120 You do not know, you do not because it's not true. 2:12:39.960 --> 2:12:45.840 Run away. So meanwhile, meanwhile, so in the period when 2:12:45.880 --> 2:12:49.520 people actually like did this seriously, you know, there's a 2:12:49.560 --> 2:12:52.240 lot of sort of ideological things that come together to 2:12:52.600 --> 2:12:55.920 make it so that when people like you know, like 2:12:56.040 --> 2:12:58.040 when when bread prices increased too much, this is what 2:12:58.160 --> 2:13:01.400 people do. Um. And a lot of this has to 2:13:01.520 --> 2:13:05.960 do with the physical experience of what being a worker 2:13:06.200 --> 2:13:09.760 is in like you know, the centuries, like you have 2:13:09.880 --> 2:13:14.840 these like these these these these incredibly rapid like technological expansions, 2:13:14.960 --> 2:13:17.960 and you know, the people who are who are doing 2:13:18.080 --> 2:13:19.960 this stuff like see themselves as the creators of the 2:13:20.000 --> 2:13:22.560 new world, right like. And this is like literally this 2:13:22.640 --> 2:13:24.360 is sounding like these are the people who are literally 2:13:24.480 --> 2:13:27.200 like they are building the cities, right like, all all 2:13:27.240 --> 2:13:29.160 of the sort of the infrastructure of the modern world 2:13:29.280 --> 2:13:32.800 is physically being created by them. And this creates this 2:13:33.160 --> 2:13:35.520 you know, like if you're the person who is like 2:13:36.320 --> 2:13:39.040 who has transformed like this fishing village into this giant 2:13:39.080 --> 2:13:43.560 industrial city, right um, you know you you you see 2:13:43.600 --> 2:13:46.560 yourselves as the creator, like literally physically the creator of 2:13:46.640 --> 2:13:49.520 this new world is being developed. And then the second 2:13:49.600 --> 2:13:51.920 belief that that it produces that drives this movement is 2:13:52.000 --> 2:13:53.760 that the people who produce this world should be as 2:13:53.800 --> 2:13:57.120 inheritors and so and this this, this sort of this 2:13:57.240 --> 2:13:59.920 is what drives the workers movement in this period, which 2:13:59.920 --> 2:14:02.320 is that like, okay, so if if you if you 2:14:02.400 --> 2:14:05.480 are literally physically creating the new world, and you think 2:14:05.520 --> 2:14:08.360 that because you have created it, it should be yours. Uh, 2:14:08.840 --> 2:14:10.760 the next that the thing that you do because it's 2:14:10.800 --> 2:14:13.720 not yours, right, like you don't like yeah, you know, 2:14:14.800 --> 2:14:17.280 like the people who build cities are not the people 2:14:17.400 --> 2:14:22.240 who owned the cities. And you know if you see this, yeah, 2:14:22.680 --> 2:14:24.720 like yeah, okay, like in the city is actually owned 2:14:24.760 --> 2:14:28.920 by like three real estate speculators and like a bunch 2:14:28.960 --> 2:14:32.400 of cops, and more applicable examples like the people who 2:14:32.440 --> 2:14:34.960 build the cup podcast is not own the podcast. Yeah no, 2:14:35.000 --> 2:14:37.480 we don't own the podcast. Like we we are exactly 2:14:37.520 --> 2:14:39.880 a plicable result that you know, that kind of you know, 2:14:40.120 --> 2:14:43.560 everyone understands that example. Yeah, every we I actually don't 2:14:43.600 --> 2:14:45.440 think the people understand that we don't own the podcast. 2:14:45.760 --> 2:14:48.840 It's actually unclear to be I. I people people have 2:14:48.920 --> 2:14:51.120 weird things about how podcasting works. But yeah, we don't 2:14:51.160 --> 2:14:55.440 own the podcast. We just create it and we do 2:14:55.560 --> 2:14:58.080 all the work. And then Sophie sits in her leather 2:14:58.320 --> 2:15:05.240 chair looking to out at the leather chair chair over. 2:15:05.880 --> 2:15:10.400 I think it's all my podcast creations I have created 2:15:10.560 --> 2:15:14.360 and then usually so bad. How could you think I 2:15:14.400 --> 2:15:17.000 could sit here on an eight five degree day in 2:15:17.080 --> 2:15:21.960 a leather chair going to sulpie. At least get your 2:15:22.080 --> 2:15:31.400 facts right, my word a chair? Continue, Chris. Okay, So 2:15:31.560 --> 2:15:34.440 for the people who are like actually watching their boss, 2:15:34.880 --> 2:15:37.560 like sitting around smoking a giant cigar in a factory 2:15:37.640 --> 2:15:41.280 while they pound like hammers, or like work at a 2:15:41.360 --> 2:15:47.560 hospital and get a watch like just started a massive 2:15:47.680 --> 2:15:54.200 cigar and a comically large to give to prop. But 2:15:56.480 --> 2:15:58.440 because for the record, whenever I do hang out with 2:15:58.560 --> 2:16:01.720 my other boss, Robert, he often does in some chair 2:16:01.800 --> 2:16:03.760 smoking a cigar, and I do think it is in 2:16:03.840 --> 2:16:09.840 fact leather. Okay, So we're describing Robert before me, the 2:16:09.880 --> 2:16:14.520 slave away in my laptop writing scripts and yeah, work 2:16:14.560 --> 2:16:17.560 in the podcast minds. Yeah, it's it's it is. It 2:16:17.720 --> 2:16:22.680 is really hard out there and continue. So okay, So, 2:16:22.840 --> 2:16:25.840 like the belief that you produced the world and that 2:16:25.960 --> 2:16:27.440 if you produce you should own it is like this 2:16:27.600 --> 2:16:29.280 This is not unique to the part of the workers 2:16:29.320 --> 2:16:32.200 movement that like, you know, thinks that also you should 2:16:32.240 --> 2:16:34.880 like have a democracy and the factory and like you 2:16:34.879 --> 2:16:36.920 should have the autonomy to decide how you do your 2:16:36.920 --> 2:16:39.760 work and what needs to be done. Uh that those 2:16:39.840 --> 2:16:42.800 beliefs like broadly comprise the ideology of like the entire 2:16:42.879 --> 2:16:46.120 workers movement, and by you know, by by the century, 2:16:46.120 --> 2:16:48.600 the workers movement is really really broad, right, I mean 2:16:48.640 --> 2:16:51.920 it stretches from sort of like really mild social democratic 2:16:52.000 --> 2:16:54.440 trade unionists to like the intellectual heads of these like 2:16:54.520 --> 2:16:58.000 Leninist vanguard parties. But what makes the democratic wing unique 2:16:58.160 --> 2:17:02.320 is that the r concern is the fundamental alienation of 2:17:02.400 --> 2:17:04.320 factory life. And and this this is I mean, originally 2:17:04.360 --> 2:17:06.320 like it is very much factory life, but like this 2:17:06.520 --> 2:17:09.680 this gets expanded out as this goes on into sort 2:17:09.720 --> 2:17:14.160 of the like the fundamental alienation of labor itself, which 2:17:14.600 --> 2:17:17.000 is just this condition of being reduced to an object 2:17:17.080 --> 2:17:19.720 by bosses who use you as a tool to do something. 2:17:21.160 --> 2:17:23.400 And you know, and this this is a concern for 2:17:23.480 --> 2:17:25.320 everyone in some sense, but but for the Lenins and 2:17:25.360 --> 2:17:28.280 social democrats, alienation is just like a product of ownership 2:17:28.360 --> 2:17:31.920 or distribution. Right. So you know, if if that's what 2:17:32.040 --> 2:17:35.360 you believe, the way you defeat alienation is through the 2:17:35.400 --> 2:17:37.760 working class of productive capacity, not in it, not in 2:17:37.840 --> 2:17:39.920 sort of like any kind of like innate human like 2:17:40.440 --> 2:17:43.160 humanity or creativity. Like all you have to do is like, well, okay, 2:17:43.160 --> 2:17:46.080 you flip a switch, right, and the factory is now 2:17:46.160 --> 2:17:49.000 owned by the state instead of being owned by like 2:17:50.640 --> 2:17:53.600 JP Morgan or something like, Now your alienation is gone. 2:17:54.720 --> 2:17:57.440 That's how it works. Yeah, Or and and your social democracy. 2:17:57.480 --> 2:17:59.840 It's like, well, okay, so you you you, you flip 2:17:59.879 --> 2:18:02.640 a whitch and taxes get higher, and now you have 2:18:02.720 --> 2:18:05.600 a union, but you're still working for gold You're still 2:18:05.640 --> 2:18:09.240 working for the Goldman Sachs. But you know, but for 2:18:09.440 --> 2:18:11.400 for for for for the wing of the workers movements 2:18:11.680 --> 2:18:17.320 that you know actually cares about democracy. This doesn't solve anything, right, Like, 2:18:17.600 --> 2:18:22.720 as long as the fundamental relation of being the like 2:18:22.879 --> 2:18:25.240 of being an object rights. As long as like you, 2:18:25.440 --> 2:18:28.120 fundamentally the worker are not are not a human being 2:18:28.320 --> 2:18:31.080 who has agency and control and autonomy over their life. 2:18:31.120 --> 2:18:34.680 As long as you're just an object that you know, 2:18:34.920 --> 2:18:37.560 like you're you're like you, you you're a living human 2:18:37.680 --> 2:18:40.200 tool that the one man ruler of the factory can 2:18:40.320 --> 2:18:42.720 like you know, can can wield around to do whatever 2:18:42.760 --> 2:18:44.640 they want. As as long as that persists, changes in 2:18:44.680 --> 2:18:47.520 ownership structure and need like health benefits missed the entire point. 2:18:48.280 --> 2:18:51.240 And this kind of the degradation that comes from just 2:18:51.560 --> 2:18:54.160 being a tool can only be solved by returning agency 2:18:54.160 --> 2:18:56.960 and autonomy to the working class. And that means like 2:18:57.080 --> 2:19:01.000 actually giving the class control over the production process. And 2:19:01.200 --> 2:19:04.080 you know, in in in notty six and Spain, workers 2:19:04.720 --> 2:19:06.720 are like funk this and decided to take the entire 2:19:06.800 --> 2:19:09.560 thing into their own hands. And they do this by 2:19:09.680 --> 2:19:11.880 just seizing their workplaces and mass and this becomes known 2:19:11.879 --> 2:19:14.840 as a Spanish revolution um and it is one of 2:19:14.920 --> 2:19:18.920 the most extensive sort of experiments. And like workers democratic 2:19:18.920 --> 2:19:20.960 self managements or like whatever whatever you want to call 2:19:21.160 --> 2:19:23.640 people making their own decisions in the workplace like that 2:19:23.720 --> 2:19:26.760 has ever happened, like especially in the modern era. Like 2:19:27.000 --> 2:19:30.080 everything from like public utilities to like bakeries to hospitals 2:19:30.160 --> 2:19:33.040 to shoe factories like falls under the direct control of 2:19:33.120 --> 2:19:35.400 these like democratic unions. And once their bosses have been 2:19:35.480 --> 2:19:38.840 like you know, chased from the premises and like flee 2:19:38.959 --> 2:19:43.400 and terror uh, these workers set about like transforming the 2:19:43.600 --> 2:19:46.440 entirety of Spanish society along democratic lines. Like they pulled 2:19:46.480 --> 2:19:49.400 their resources together collectively and they allocate them democratically for 2:19:49.440 --> 2:19:52.360 the benefit of like siety as a whole, and for 2:19:52.440 --> 2:19:54.640 a brief moment this works. They have this incredible, like 2:19:54.720 --> 2:19:58.600 this triumphant experiment democratic self managements, and output increases dramatically 2:19:58.640 --> 2:20:02.480 and social services are expanded, and like in in In 2:20:02.959 --> 2:20:04.840 in the span of two years in the middle of 2:20:04.879 --> 2:20:07.360 a civil war, like the workers of Spain are able 2:20:07.400 --> 2:20:10.520 to create a universal health care system that expands karento 2:20:10.600 --> 2:20:13.440 like like rural areas of Spain where like you couldn't 2:20:13.440 --> 2:20:16.440 get it before. But you know, the problem is once 2:20:16.480 --> 2:20:18.240 again is that this is happening to the civil war 2:20:18.480 --> 2:20:22.000 and and a lot like you know, and using sort 2:20:22.040 --> 2:20:24.800 of like nominally anti fascism like as as they're sort 2:20:24.800 --> 2:20:28.080 of like you know, they're using the threat of the 2:20:28.160 --> 2:20:30.320 NIED too post fascism as as a sort of front 2:20:30.400 --> 2:20:33.080 like a French for what they're actually doing. You get 2:20:33.080 --> 2:20:36.760 this alliance of liberals, liberal socialists and Stalinists who just 2:20:36.920 --> 2:20:39.680 like brutally stamp out any attempt that you democratic self 2:20:39.680 --> 2:20:43.000 management and like you have like Soviet cadreastion like NKVD, 2:20:43.240 --> 2:20:46.320 like Soviet secret police guys like literally leading armies into 2:20:46.400 --> 2:20:49.880 into these cities and like like killing like killing the 2:20:49.920 --> 2:20:53.199 workers and then physically like taking control of these factories 2:20:53.200 --> 2:20:55.040 that people had sees and giving them back to the bosses, 2:20:56.800 --> 2:20:58.160 which is you know, this is this is great. This 2:20:58.200 --> 2:21:02.280 is a great communist stuff. And yeah, the you know, 2:21:02.640 --> 2:21:05.000 and this this this ends exactly how you would expect 2:21:05.040 --> 2:21:08.400 it to end with. Yeah, like this this the Stalinists 2:21:08.440 --> 2:21:10.600 get everything they want. They murder all of the people 2:21:10.640 --> 2:21:13.120 who want like a factory council, and then they all 2:21:13.160 --> 2:21:16.480 get killed by Franco. But you know, undeterred by sort 2:21:16.480 --> 2:21:20.520 of the casualty tolls of these like massacres by people 2:21:20.560 --> 2:21:24.920 who want bosses. Uh, this just keeps happening, and you know, 2:21:25.480 --> 2:21:28.160 by the time you get to the sties, like all 2:21:28.160 --> 2:21:30.400 this stuff is back. Like there there's there's factory councils 2:21:30.400 --> 2:21:32.560 again in Hungary, you get them, in Italy and France 2:21:32.600 --> 2:21:36.640 and the Chichoslovakia N eight there's like like they're there there. There, 2:21:36.640 --> 2:21:39.080 there's councils being like there, there's there's communes being formed 2:21:39.120 --> 2:21:41.680 in like Vietnam. There's like they're that We've talked about 2:21:41.680 --> 2:21:45.560 the cordonation UH in Chile on this show before like 2:21:45.680 --> 2:21:49.600 these things are happening everywhere, and I think Hungary in 2:21:49.680 --> 2:21:53.640 particular is a really interesting one because so there's a 2:21:53.680 --> 2:21:58.320 revolution in Hungary against sort of the Soviets in six 2:21:58.640 --> 2:22:02.279 that's it gets a lot of the same liberal mythologizing 2:22:02.320 --> 2:22:05.520 that you get with Tenemen, but like kind of more 2:22:05.560 --> 2:22:08.640 egregious here. So I don't know, I think, like I 2:22:09.040 --> 2:22:12.240 I got taught this revolution in schools is like one 2:22:12.240 --> 2:22:14.720 of the few ones that we actually get and they 2:22:14.800 --> 2:22:17.279 taught it as this like this is like the Hungarian 2:22:17.320 --> 2:22:20.119 revolution was just like kind of nationalists, like liberal democratic 2:22:20.160 --> 2:22:22.640 revolution for people who wanted like democracy and freedom and 2:22:22.760 --> 2:22:25.800 like free markets. And then like you know, if you 2:22:25.840 --> 2:22:27.480 go read about what the people were at but people 2:22:27.520 --> 2:22:30.240 actually doing the revolution we're saying, you get quotes like this, 2:22:30.920 --> 2:22:32.440 this is a direct quote from a member of one 2:22:32.480 --> 2:22:35.520 of the Hungarian workers councils. The time when the boss 2:22:35.600 --> 2:22:41.480 is decided, our fate is over, and it's like these 2:22:41.520 --> 2:22:44.880 these guys, these guys do not seem like I don't know, 2:22:45.160 --> 2:22:48.000 these guys don't seem like liberal democrats. Something weird is 2:22:48.040 --> 2:22:49.800 happening here. That's something that's actually happening, is that like 2:22:50.600 --> 2:22:53.120 Hungarian workers like sees control of their factories and like 2:22:53.160 --> 2:22:55.080 the workplaces, and they formed workers councils the overs of 2:22:55.120 --> 2:22:57.640 the government, and then the Russian slaughter them all. But 2:22:57.800 --> 2:23:00.720 you know, like this is not liberal democratic revolution at all, 2:23:00.760 --> 2:23:03.320 that this is a revolt against the tatorship in the workplace, 2:23:03.800 --> 2:23:06.959 and there's an identical revolts breakout across both the capitalist 2:23:07.040 --> 2:23:10.120 world and the communist world, and in the newly de 2:23:10.200 --> 2:23:13.560 colonized society start seeing them too, and you know, and 2:23:14.040 --> 2:23:17.840 to the sort of like dismay of both the communists 2:23:17.879 --> 2:23:20.160 and the capitalists who are both like, oh my god, 2:23:20.200 --> 2:23:22.640 why is and we keep holming workers councils like this 2:23:22.840 --> 2:23:26.640 solution to alienation, Like it's not like an ideological thing, right, 2:23:26.680 --> 2:23:29.040 Like it's it's not that there's like a group of 2:23:29.120 --> 2:23:32.400 people who are like secretly infiltrating these countries and being like, okay, 2:23:32.400 --> 2:23:35.120 you needful workers councils. This this is this stuff is 2:23:35.120 --> 2:23:37.320 happening in places where there's just like none of that. 2:23:38.320 --> 2:23:39.960 So like one of one of the sort of like 2:23:40.959 --> 2:23:43.600 movements that that does stuff like this is is the 2:23:43.680 --> 2:23:47.600 revolution in Algeria. Um, you know, and they're like they're 2:23:47.640 --> 2:23:49.680 they're there are like Algeria like does have a pretty 2:23:49.720 --> 2:23:52.720 high level of political education, but the political education they're 2:23:52.720 --> 2:23:56.040 getting is from like it's it's from the National Liberation Front, 2:23:56.080 --> 2:23:58.840 which is like asofar As, it's any one thing. It's 2:23:58.879 --> 2:24:00.880 like it's a nationalist vankard this movements, which is you 2:24:00.920 --> 2:24:02.760 know that they're the people who like fight the French 2:24:02.800 --> 2:24:06.880 colonizers and beat them and their ideology like asofar As, 2:24:06.879 --> 2:24:08.320 you can describe one out the Allo egion. Like the 2:24:08.360 --> 2:24:10.280 thing that they want is like the state having this 2:24:10.360 --> 2:24:14.440 decisive role of national development. But you know, immediately it's 2:24:14.680 --> 2:24:17.960 taking power off. And BenBella, who's Algeria's first president, like 2:24:18.080 --> 2:24:20.480 discovers that, you know, he's not actually going to be 2:24:20.600 --> 2:24:23.080 the one like making the decision about what the country's 2:24:23.080 --> 2:24:26.000 economic structure is going to be because he takes power 2:24:26.480 --> 2:24:29.240 and a whole bunch of like French people who lived 2:24:29.240 --> 2:24:34.360 in Algeria of flee, and basically what happens immediately after 2:24:34.600 --> 2:24:37.240 is that all of like all of these this property 2:24:37.320 --> 2:24:41.520 that have been originally like held by by by French 2:24:41.600 --> 2:24:45.960 sort of like colonists, like it gets immediately seized by 2:24:46.000 --> 2:24:48.200 the Algerian working class and you know, they build their 2:24:48.240 --> 2:24:51.400 own workers councils, and you know, BenBella is like, Okay, 2:24:51.440 --> 2:24:53.920 I guess I guess we have like workers councils now, 2:24:54.400 --> 2:24:56.040 like I guess I guess we have sort of like 2:24:56.080 --> 2:25:01.000 autonomous democratic production and BenBella is like kind of trying 2:25:01.080 --> 2:25:05.560 to undermine them. But he doesn't really get a chance 2:25:05.640 --> 2:25:08.480 to because once again there's a military coup and Bembella 2:25:09.800 --> 2:25:13.000 like he I think he escapes and doesn't die. But 2:25:13.120 --> 2:25:14.960 like the fact that the council's all sort of get 2:25:15.000 --> 2:25:17.760 dismantled again. But like the number of times this has 2:25:17.800 --> 2:25:21.200 happened is getting just like completely out of hand, and 2:25:21.680 --> 2:25:25.240 it's like yeah, okay, the it's like yeah, okay, so 2:25:25.560 --> 2:25:27.680 every time this happens, they murder everyone. But like you know, 2:25:27.760 --> 2:25:29.560 the revolutions keep happening, and they keep happening, and they 2:25:29.640 --> 2:25:34.320 keep happening, and you know, even even as late as 2:25:34.360 --> 2:25:36.520 like the late seventies, like it's not clear that that 2:25:36.640 --> 2:25:39.400 that like it's it's not clear that the people who 2:25:39.480 --> 2:25:41.040 want one man role in the factory are gonna win. 2:25:41.160 --> 2:25:44.200 Like there's this moment in Italy nineteen seventy seven where 2:25:44.240 --> 2:25:46.160 it's like this just like giant student student and worker 2:25:46.200 --> 2:25:50.440 coalition almost takes power. Um, Like in Spain even after 2:25:50.600 --> 2:25:54.440 like fifty years of of like Franco and like the 2:25:54.680 --> 2:25:57.680 fascist octatorship, like the c n T, which is the 2:25:57.720 --> 2:25:59.920 anarchist union that had done the revolution like reappears in 2:26:00.000 --> 2:26:02.080 the seventies again even though everyone thought it was gone, 2:26:02.840 --> 2:26:06.680 and like, you know, this is a real this is 2:26:06.720 --> 2:26:11.320 a real source of strife for especially the sort of 2:26:11.360 --> 2:26:17.320 capitalist managerial elite. Who are you know they this stuff 2:26:17.400 --> 2:26:20.279 keeps happening. It's like okay, like it is an unacceptable 2:26:20.400 --> 2:26:22.160 risk that one of the one day one of these 2:26:22.160 --> 2:26:26.320 groups is going to win. And so they start looking 2:26:26.360 --> 2:26:28.880 for a way to like dismantle this sort of like 2:26:29.400 --> 2:26:32.280 systemic things that like create that that caused people to 2:26:32.400 --> 2:26:34.920 do this. But you know, but they're but they're trying 2:26:34.920 --> 2:26:36.520 to do it in a way that doesn't involve the 2:26:36.600 --> 2:26:41.640 giving up their power. Um. So Yeah, as Vicky austen 2:26:41.680 --> 2:26:44.400 Whild points out, this sort of like this like instinctive 2:26:44.440 --> 2:26:46.400 embrace of like democracy in the factory, like as a 2:26:46.400 --> 2:26:50.160 political program, it's only possible as long as factories, as 2:26:50.160 --> 2:26:51.840 long as like the factory functions is the point of 2:26:51.920 --> 2:26:54.480 encounter her. I think it was her term for was 2:26:54.600 --> 2:26:57.200 She calls it a darker Gora, which is like, so 2:26:57.360 --> 2:26:59.080 Gore is like like the sort of like the Greek 2:26:59.120 --> 2:27:01.920 marketplace in the center of town. Everyone goes there and 2:27:02.080 --> 2:27:05.800 you like talk about things, right, and the factory serves 2:27:06.040 --> 2:27:07.400 as this kind of like it's this sort of like 2:27:07.480 --> 2:27:10.520 dark version of it. Were Like, on the one hand, 2:27:11.080 --> 2:27:13.520 you know, it facilitates these interactions that allow people to 2:27:13.560 --> 2:27:16.600 sort of like identify with each other and like you know, 2:27:16.720 --> 2:27:20.160 create collective meaning by like interacting with each other. But 2:27:20.280 --> 2:27:22.120 on the other hand, it exists to exploit you, and 2:27:22.200 --> 2:27:25.160 it's like terrible and you're just getting you know, you're 2:27:25.200 --> 2:27:27.800 getting physically and socially destroyed like every moment you're in it. 2:27:28.520 --> 2:27:31.400 But you know it's it's still is a place where 2:27:31.440 --> 2:27:34.160 you can like assemble an identity as like like you 2:27:34.320 --> 2:27:35.880 and a bunch of the people around you can go like, hey, 2:27:35.959 --> 2:27:38.360 like we are workers, right, like we are the working class, 2:27:38.400 --> 2:27:40.240 and this this is like a shared political identity that 2:27:40.320 --> 2:27:43.440 you have that allows you to do things. And so 2:27:44.200 --> 2:27:46.600 the thrust of sort of the attack against this takes 2:27:46.640 --> 2:27:48.600 the form of this attack on like the shop floor 2:27:48.680 --> 2:27:51.640 as like a side of like formation of identities that 2:27:51.720 --> 2:27:55.480 that can allow you to mobilize stuff. And so this 2:27:55.560 --> 2:27:58.520 takes like a number of forms. Um most famously, there's 2:27:58.560 --> 2:28:01.520 there's it's the industrialization and this sort of like spatial 2:28:01.600 --> 2:28:04.039 relocation of factories. So like like part of what's going 2:28:04.080 --> 2:28:06.400 on right is that you have a you have a 2:28:06.480 --> 2:28:08.800 bunch of people who work in a factory, and then 2:28:08.840 --> 2:28:11.840 they live like around like right around the factories. Right 2:28:12.200 --> 2:28:13.760 were they work in a coal mine and everyone lives 2:28:13.800 --> 2:28:15.840 in a town around the coal mine. And this means 2:28:15.879 --> 2:28:18.400 that everyone sees each other constantly, and they're like constantly 2:28:18.520 --> 2:28:20.520 like running into each other and like physically talking to 2:28:20.600 --> 2:28:24.480 each other. And you know, this is a really good 2:28:24.520 --> 2:28:28.880 way to create radical politics. So what what happens is 2:28:29.040 --> 2:28:32.200 you these factories get sent out to the suburbs, and 2:28:33.560 --> 2:28:35.680 this allows you to to create places where you know, 2:28:35.720 --> 2:28:37.520 workers are isolated from each other and you know, and 2:28:37.560 --> 2:28:38.920 the other thing you can do is you turn workers 2:28:38.959 --> 2:28:42.039 into homeowners and you sort of like buy them off 2:28:42.080 --> 2:28:44.320 with this combination of like cheap credit and this promise 2:28:44.440 --> 2:28:46.840 that like their houses would not be a financial asset. 2:28:47.879 --> 2:28:50.520 And so as the sort of eighties rolls on, the 2:28:51.080 --> 2:28:53.800 sort of the the like the herald of democratization of 2:28:53.879 --> 2:28:56.360 finance or places democratization, and the factory is sort of 2:28:56.440 --> 2:28:58.960 the capitalist class. Like the other thing they do that's 2:28:59.000 --> 2:29:03.680 like really insidious. They they tied like the remaining union 2:29:03.720 --> 2:29:06.720 pensions into the stock market. This is stuff like you 2:29:06.760 --> 2:29:08.560 see today with like four o one case, and it 2:29:08.640 --> 2:29:12.000 means that like if you want to like have a retirement, 2:29:12.280 --> 2:29:15.040 you are like physically literally invested in the stock market, 2:29:16.040 --> 2:29:18.480 which ties you know, which ties everyone sort of like 2:29:18.560 --> 2:29:21.680 into the system. And corporations start to turn workplaces into 2:29:21.720 --> 2:29:25.440 these like enormous propaganda apparatus. Is you get like like 2:29:25.560 --> 2:29:28.480 Walmart in particular, has these like like these vast ideological 2:29:28.640 --> 2:29:31.080 like programming things that they run that are designed to 2:29:31.120 --> 2:29:34.600 sort of like get you to identify with the corporation 2:29:34.680 --> 2:29:37.160 itself and not with like the other people you're you know, 2:29:37.320 --> 2:29:39.040 like the other people you're within the class as a whole, 2:29:39.080 --> 2:29:40.760 and you know, and like the other thing that they're 2:29:40.760 --> 2:29:44.080 able to do is the fact that capital is mobile 2:29:44.120 --> 2:29:48.359 and workers like aren't allows you know, combined with logistics advances, 2:29:48.480 --> 2:29:50.280 and it means that like if workers ever start getting 2:29:50.280 --> 2:29:53.960 in upper hands somewhere, capitalist can just leave and the 2:29:54.080 --> 2:29:55.840 process that you see, is that as the sort of 2:29:55.879 --> 2:29:58.480 the total number of people working in the like in 2:29:58.560 --> 2:30:01.199 industrial work keeps decreasing, as a center of the population 2:30:01.240 --> 2:30:06.400 that keeps decreasing. And as this happens, capitalists are just like, okay, skirt, 2:30:06.440 --> 2:30:08.120 we're gon, we're gonna, we're gonna pick up our tools 2:30:08.160 --> 2:30:12.480 and leave. And this spits out like enormous populations who 2:30:12.480 --> 2:30:15.040 are just like kicked out of atitional workforce entirely. And 2:30:15.160 --> 2:30:18.960 these developments, this is what actually like eventually destroys the 2:30:19.000 --> 2:30:21.240 classical workers t mouvement is the abilability to leave from 2:30:21.240 --> 2:30:22.840 the sort of destruction of the factory is like a 2:30:22.959 --> 2:30:26.040 site of stuff. But in order for this to work, 2:30:26.480 --> 2:30:29.200 the one thing they need is a place to move 2:30:29.280 --> 2:30:31.600 to write. They need somewhere with this large exploitable labor 2:30:31.680 --> 2:30:35.280 supply that has been like crushed enough that it won't 2:30:35.320 --> 2:30:40.240 revolt against them. And the capitalist class finds that in 2:30:40.680 --> 2:30:45.040 our products and services, and we're we're we're back, We're 2:30:45.200 --> 2:30:49.160 we're back, and we're we're back to China. And Okay, 2:30:49.280 --> 2:30:51.440 so I've been talking about the way this sort of 2:30:51.560 --> 2:30:54.199 like this this whole system, like this whole factory system 2:30:54.400 --> 2:30:58.520 mass production stuff like develops. But China is weird because 2:30:58.720 --> 2:31:00.360 this is the one place where the fact your system 2:31:00.400 --> 2:31:04.840 works like really differently than everywhere else. Um, there's a 2:31:04.840 --> 2:31:06.200 lot of reasons for this, one of which is it 2:31:06.320 --> 2:31:09.959 like so change like stayed on firms. It's like almost 2:31:10.000 --> 2:31:13.440 impossible for them to fire someone because I mean there's 2:31:13.440 --> 2:31:14.480 a lot of reasons for this, and one of them 2:31:14.520 --> 2:31:16.520 is that like people's entire sort of social sphere is 2:31:16.520 --> 2:31:18.840 built around their work unit. And like their work unit 2:31:18.920 --> 2:31:20.440 is like it is the is the company you work for, 2:31:20.560 --> 2:31:22.959 and there's this whole sort of like legal apparatus built 2:31:22.959 --> 2:31:25.240 around it, and its like you know, and like this 2:31:25.600 --> 2:31:28.080 like unit gives you everything from like your retirement, like 2:31:28.200 --> 2:31:31.200 it like feeds you, like there's often entertainment stuff like 2:31:31.240 --> 2:31:33.320 tied into it, Like you get healthcare, you get like 2:31:33.440 --> 2:31:37.280 childcare from it. And the CP also gets rid of 2:31:37.360 --> 2:31:39.240 the peace rate system, which is just like this is 2:31:39.320 --> 2:31:41.560 this thing that like I mean, it's so there's a 2:31:41.560 --> 2:31:43.160 lot of capitalist places to work with this word's like okay, 2:31:43.200 --> 2:31:45.760 so the peace rate system is you pay people for 2:31:45.840 --> 2:31:48.160 like every unit of something they produce, so like you 2:31:48.200 --> 2:31:50.640 get paid by like I don't know like how many 2:31:50.760 --> 2:31:52.640 like how many pounds of like cherities you can pick. 2:31:53.879 --> 2:31:57.920 And so the USSR brings this back because the USSR 2:31:58.000 --> 2:32:01.320 and the US are really not that different. But China 2:32:01.480 --> 2:32:04.960 is like, nah, this like sucks. This is capitalism and 2:32:05.600 --> 2:32:07.160 you know, okay, like I'm not gonna say the Chinese 2:32:07.200 --> 2:32:10.920 factory system is great, but like because they don't have 2:32:11.080 --> 2:32:13.160 the peace ray system is because they can't fire people. 2:32:14.360 --> 2:32:16.920 You get this very you get this weird thing where 2:32:16.959 --> 2:32:20.360 it's like the people who run the factories like don't 2:32:20.760 --> 2:32:26.040 have very good ways to force people to work. And 2:32:26.400 --> 2:32:28.480 because of this, they like they sort of like have 2:32:28.720 --> 2:32:31.600 to allow this degree of participation in the worker process, 2:32:31.760 --> 2:32:33.160 like in the labor process that like you don't really 2:32:33.200 --> 2:32:35.440 see most of the places and the everything they have 2:32:35.720 --> 2:32:39.080 that I luckily Garrison and I also have this is 2:32:39.320 --> 2:32:43.040 we have the ability to criticize our bosses. Although we 2:32:43.200 --> 2:32:50.480 we have more of this these guys. But one day ahead, 2:32:52.080 --> 2:32:53.640 one one okay, we we we've got it. We don't, 2:32:53.640 --> 2:32:55.560 we don't. We don't have our big character poster yet, 2:32:55.600 --> 2:32:56.960 but like one day Garrison and I are going to 2:32:57.000 --> 2:32:59.560 show up to the office with like giant big character 2:32:59.680 --> 2:33:02.360 post with your faces on it. They like have specifically, 2:33:02.480 --> 2:33:04.120 Roberts are gonna have a list of crimes on it. 2:33:05.560 --> 2:33:07.640 My favorite part of like big labor protests when they 2:33:07.680 --> 2:33:12.160 make those giant like puppets. If we just make a 2:33:12.240 --> 2:33:14.560 giant's tech puppet version of Robert and Sophie that we 2:33:14.680 --> 2:33:18.840 just prayed around the office, that's long as mind's bigger 2:33:18.920 --> 2:33:28.080 than Robert's, that's fine, we can do that, right, full support. 2:33:28.720 --> 2:33:30.879 So we were got to do this in China, It's 2:33:31.040 --> 2:33:33.400 it's weird, like you have the ability to do this, 2:33:33.600 --> 2:33:36.640 but like it's like run to the party and so 2:33:36.760 --> 2:33:39.160 if someone gets unpopular enough, like the party will like 2:33:39.240 --> 2:33:43.000 start a campaign about how bad like that one boss is, 2:33:43.040 --> 2:33:44.560 and then you can show up to like the meeting 2:33:44.600 --> 2:33:46.520 and go like, hey, I hate my boss. This guy sucks. 2:33:46.840 --> 2:33:50.200 But they're just replacing with like another boss, right, So 2:33:50.360 --> 2:33:55.680 it's not like it's not actually a democratic system really, 2:33:56.680 --> 2:33:58.960 but the way that it works ensures that like the 2:33:59.120 --> 2:34:01.800 people who are managed years are like pretty popular at 2:34:01.840 --> 2:34:04.200 least to some extents, like are popular and people don't 2:34:04.240 --> 2:34:08.120 like really hate them. And this means that, you know, 2:34:09.240 --> 2:34:12.040 because there's all of this stuff that makes the Chinese 2:34:12.040 --> 2:34:15.720 factories different from like the other systems, and also because 2:34:15.760 --> 2:34:19.280 of like structural stuff in Maoism that I mean, I 2:34:19.360 --> 2:34:23.080 could talk about that, but I don't like talking about Maoism. 2:34:23.800 --> 2:34:26.560 But basically the product of this is that like you 2:34:26.720 --> 2:34:28.680 have in China during this period, a lot of demands 2:34:28.720 --> 2:34:31.600 for democracy, but they're really they're not they're not tied 2:34:31.640 --> 2:34:34.520 to the workplace at all. They're they're they're mostly like 2:34:34.640 --> 2:34:37.320 political demands for like democracy in the party or stuff 2:34:37.320 --> 2:34:41.440 like that. And that means, like you know, at least 2:34:41.480 --> 2:34:45.640 in the cities, this system like kind of works okayish 2:34:45.840 --> 2:34:49.080 until the Cultural Revolution where everything falls apart. And this 2:34:49.280 --> 2:34:51.120 means that it is at long last time for me 2:34:51.200 --> 2:34:54.520 to do the cultural revolution rant, which is something I 2:34:54.600 --> 2:35:00.640 have been planning for, Like, yeah, I excited about this. 2:35:00.720 --> 2:35:04.120 I've been waiting for an excuse and I finally have one. Okay, 2:35:04.160 --> 2:35:06.600 So the cultural revolution rant is that everyone gets the 2:35:06.640 --> 2:35:11.680 cultural revolution completely wrong, Like everyone every like it's like 2:35:12.440 --> 2:35:14.840 it's it's one of the rare events where like it's 2:35:14.879 --> 2:35:17.840 misinterpreted in like exactly the same way by both people 2:35:17.879 --> 2:35:20.840 who support it and the people who oppose it. Um 2:35:21.000 --> 2:35:23.280 And Okay, the first thing to understand about this, right 2:35:23.360 --> 2:35:28.280 is like Okay, So the the initial the very very 2:35:28.320 --> 2:35:32.240 beginning of the culture revolution, like it's basically a bunch 2:35:32.280 --> 2:35:36.760 of like teenagers kind of like it's like middle schoolers essentially, 2:35:37.520 --> 2:35:43.680 and they're attacking these they're attacking like other kids at 2:35:43.720 --> 2:35:47.080 their school. And these kids are kids who have what's 2:35:47.120 --> 2:35:50.760 called a black blood background, like black blood, which means 2:35:50.840 --> 2:35:53.000 that like they're they're the children of people who were 2:35:53.080 --> 2:35:57.440 from like quote unquote bad class backgrounds. And this is 2:35:57.480 --> 2:35:59.400 really weird for a number of reasons. One because you 2:35:59.480 --> 2:36:01.640 have you have a sort of like a pseudo class 2:36:01.680 --> 2:36:04.880 system based on like who your parents were, right, you 2:36:04.920 --> 2:36:06.720 have people who have red blood who had like good 2:36:06.800 --> 2:36:08.959 class backgrounds, like your parents are workers, or your parents 2:36:09.240 --> 2:36:11.640 worked with the Party or something. And then you have 2:36:11.680 --> 2:36:14.240 people who are from like bad class backgrounds quote unquote, 2:36:14.240 --> 2:36:17.160 who like are persecuted and like, okay, like I don't 2:36:17.200 --> 2:36:19.760 really care that much if you're like persecuting like a 2:36:19.840 --> 2:36:22.640 Shanghai oligarch who like collaborated with the French and Japanese 2:36:22.640 --> 2:36:26.000 imperialists or whatever. But like a this extends to like 2:36:26.160 --> 2:36:27.640 the children of these people, and a lot of the 2:36:27.720 --> 2:36:30.680 children these people weren't even alive when their parents were 2:36:30.800 --> 2:36:33.920 like you know, like doing stuff that was bad. And 2:36:34.040 --> 2:36:36.480 the other thing is that like the term bad class 2:36:36.520 --> 2:36:39.000 background this is really loose. Like I I know people 2:36:39.160 --> 2:36:42.400 whose families were declared like declared like black class backgrounds, 2:36:42.400 --> 2:36:44.160 who have black blood and like you know, they're they 2:36:44.240 --> 2:36:46.760 weren't allowed to hold in the government position. And the 2:36:46.840 --> 2:36:48.640 reason that this happened to them was that her dad 2:36:48.720 --> 2:36:52.640 had made bird feeders before the revolution and they considered 2:36:52.680 --> 2:36:55.880 that like petite bourgeois. And it's like this is like 2:36:55.959 --> 2:36:57.840 this is like like what, like what what are you doing? 2:36:57.959 --> 2:37:00.959 Like you you you reproduced, like you've turned class into 2:37:01.040 --> 2:37:03.760 like a pseudo race thing that's like her like you 2:37:03.879 --> 2:37:07.200 like inherit from your parents, even though like their parents 2:37:07.280 --> 2:37:10.800 don't own property anymore. Because it's it's really bizarre and 2:37:10.920 --> 2:37:13.800 and and what's what's happening here is the kids from 2:37:13.840 --> 2:37:16.120 the red class backgrounds are are are you know, they're 2:37:16.160 --> 2:37:18.120 they're the kids of the new of the new Chinese elite, 2:37:18.800 --> 2:37:22.040 and they're just like picking on attacking the kids who 2:37:22.080 --> 2:37:25.280 are like now this this sort of like like my 2:37:25.440 --> 2:37:28.680 minority class. And so what it amounts to at the 2:37:28.720 --> 2:37:30.400 beginning of this is a bunch of privileged rich kids 2:37:30.400 --> 2:37:32.920 who are like attacking the bunch of kids who are 2:37:32.920 --> 2:37:34.800 being persecuted for stuff. It's like not their fault at all. 2:37:36.160 --> 2:37:38.840 And you know, part and the other, the other part 2:37:38.879 --> 2:37:40.000 of this, like this is the part of the people. 2:37:40.000 --> 2:37:41.560 I think. Yeah, it's like Mao is trying to like 2:37:41.600 --> 2:37:44.119 play power game inside the party blah blah blah blah blah. 2:37:44.840 --> 2:37:47.440 But you know, things get more and more chaotic, and 2:37:47.560 --> 2:37:49.560 you get you get circuiting his attacks on like CCP, 2:37:49.680 --> 2:37:52.280 bereaucrats and cadres and stuff, because ma was trying to 2:37:52.400 --> 2:37:54.600 like male was trying to solidify his place in the 2:37:54.640 --> 2:37:56.840 party and he's blah blah blah. There's other stuff that's happening. 2:37:57.440 --> 2:38:00.400 Um but then it gets really interesting. Um. So, so 2:38:00.600 --> 2:38:04.000 this starts in six right, and at the very beginning 2:38:04.000 --> 2:38:06.920 of six seven, there's something there's something called the January Storm, 2:38:07.760 --> 2:38:10.680 which is where a bunch of rebel workers just seize 2:38:10.680 --> 2:38:12.800 control of Shanghai and like they run the party out, 2:38:12.879 --> 2:38:14.280 they run the other they run I think they run 2:38:14.320 --> 2:38:17.840 the army out too, and you know, and now like 2:38:18.160 --> 2:38:21.200 they they control the city of Shanghai. And this is 2:38:21.240 --> 2:38:24.040 like an oh funk moment from Mao because you know, 2:38:24.400 --> 2:38:26.640 now he has to like deal with this city that 2:38:26.760 --> 2:38:28.520 has been taking over by its own working class. And 2:38:28.600 --> 2:38:31.600 I found this this incredible line from Joe and Lai 2:38:31.720 --> 2:38:33.200 who's having a meeting with Mao and they're trying to 2:38:33.200 --> 2:38:37.080 figure out what to do about the fact that like this, this, this, 2:38:37.640 --> 2:38:40.440 like that Shanghai has been seized by by these workers 2:38:40.520 --> 2:38:44.080 and I'm just gonna read this. When asked whether the 2:38:44.160 --> 2:38:47.040 new leadership should be elected from the bottom up, Joel 2:38:47.240 --> 2:38:51.520 replied bluntly that quote, anarchism is bound to develop if 2:38:51.560 --> 2:38:54.760 we immediately implement direct elections of the Paris Commune type. 2:38:57.520 --> 2:38:59.800 And I think this is like this is this really incredible, 2:39:00.040 --> 2:39:03.040 like like the thing you can find right, because it's like, okay, well, 2:39:03.080 --> 2:39:08.160 there's two things that can happen here. One is either like, okay, 2:39:08.720 --> 2:39:11.040 you you you you give these people democracy and the 2:39:11.080 --> 2:39:15.600 ability to vote, right, and Joe and Lyon Matt look 2:39:15.600 --> 2:39:16.959 at this, and you're like, that would be anarchist if 2:39:17.000 --> 2:39:18.120 we can't do that. And the second thing is you 2:39:18.200 --> 2:39:21.360 don't do that, and you oppressed them, and they take 2:39:21.400 --> 2:39:24.880 the second line, and you know, okay, like it takes 2:39:24.959 --> 2:39:27.360 them a bit to get this ramped up, right, It 2:39:27.360 --> 2:39:28.600 takes them a bit to get the sort of kind 2:39:28.600 --> 2:39:30.520 of revolution thing they're doing to like stop all of 2:39:30.600 --> 2:39:34.600 this rebel stuff that they've they've started to to get 2:39:34.640 --> 2:39:39.880 it takes them about a year. But but by the 2:39:40.000 --> 2:39:42.879 students and the workers who had like you know, done 2:39:43.040 --> 2:39:45.560 done this sort of uprising stuff so are getting slaughtered, 2:39:45.920 --> 2:39:50.760 like just mastered, killed on an unimaginable scale. Uh. This 2:39:50.920 --> 2:39:53.240 is this is where everyone gets the Culture Revolution completely wrong, 2:39:53.280 --> 2:39:56.000 because everyone the entire memory of the Cultural Revolution is 2:39:56.040 --> 2:39:58.040 from basically the first two years of it, right, which 2:39:58.080 --> 2:40:00.280 is like all the stuff about like like you know, 2:40:00.400 --> 2:40:02.600 like professors being marched out onto the street and dunce 2:40:02.680 --> 2:40:06.160 caps and like students like humiliating the professors and like 2:40:06.760 --> 2:40:10.199 like party officials being like marched around with like placards 2:40:10.280 --> 2:40:12.640 on them, and like people like that's something like the 2:40:12.840 --> 2:40:14.920 chaos of the revolution. Like that's that's stuff everyone remembers. 2:40:15.560 --> 2:40:19.160 That's the first two years of this. There's still like 2:40:19.240 --> 2:40:21.720 I mean, you can are like there's there's there's the 2:40:21.720 --> 2:40:24.200 short the short quote unquote short culture Revolution, which is 2:40:24.240 --> 2:40:26.199 like the high point of the activity goes from nineteen 2:40:26.440 --> 2:40:29.960 six nine, and then there's like a longer one that 2:40:30.040 --> 2:40:32.320 goes to like the death of Mao, depending on how 2:40:32.320 --> 2:40:35.920 you want to count it. But almost all of the 2:40:36.040 --> 2:40:39.240 actual violence in this period happens in this in in 2:40:39.440 --> 2:40:42.120 in the third phase, which is the so the first 2:40:42.120 --> 2:40:44.320 phase of the Didicial uprising, and then the rebel groups 2:40:44.320 --> 2:40:47.000 start fighting each other. But then phase three is when 2:40:47.040 --> 2:40:50.920 the state like cracks down on like start starts like 2:40:51.320 --> 2:40:54.600 starts trying to crush this like rebel student factions. And 2:40:54.800 --> 2:40:58.760 I'm going to read from Walder who did ah, so 2:40:59.000 --> 2:41:01.560 is the guy in Walder who who went to He 2:41:01.640 --> 2:41:03.360 did a bunch of work in the Chinese archives, which 2:41:03.360 --> 2:41:06.320 he like went and like found the death tolls. And 2:41:06.640 --> 2:41:09.120 I'm gonna read like he like he go hells a 2:41:09.120 --> 2:41:10.720 bunch of archives. He goes to a bunch of state archives, 2:41:10.760 --> 2:41:12.680 and he like like tracks down the death certificates and 2:41:12.920 --> 2:41:16.280 tracks down like who died where? And this this is 2:41:16.320 --> 2:41:19.240 what he wrote about it. More than three four of 2:41:19.320 --> 2:41:22.240 all documented deaths and local animals are due to the 2:41:22.280 --> 2:41:24.920 actions of authorities in the in this third phase, and 2:41:24.959 --> 2:41:28.080 then more than of those persecuted for alleged political crimes. 2:41:29.040 --> 2:41:33.240 So what are he's saying here is that seventy five 2:41:33.320 --> 2:41:36.520 percent of all of the deaths the entire Culture Revolution 2:41:37.120 --> 2:41:39.720 weren't done by like the revolution parts. They were done 2:41:39.720 --> 2:41:42.119 by the state, murdering the workers faction, the rebel factions. 2:41:43.160 --> 2:41:47.640 And not only that, nine of of the actual political 2:41:47.680 --> 2:41:50.840 persecution was done by the states and not by the rebels. 2:41:51.760 --> 2:41:53.720 And when when when when you actually look at what 2:41:53.800 --> 2:41:57.120 this means, Like this means everything everything anyone ever talks 2:41:57.120 --> 2:41:59.920 about the Culture Revolution is completely wrong. It wasn't the 2:42:00.120 --> 2:42:01.680 the thing had happened to the Cultural Revolution. Wasn't that 2:42:01.720 --> 2:42:03.480 sort of student radicalism got out of control and they 2:42:03.480 --> 2:42:06.080 started killing everyone that preaches all this violence. The thing 2:42:06.120 --> 2:42:08.840 that actually happens is that there's a student like uprising, right, 2:42:09.600 --> 2:42:13.520 But what happens is that the sort of conservative and 2:42:13.560 --> 2:42:19.279 state factions just slaughter them. And I Walt Walter estimates 2:42:19.280 --> 2:42:21.640 that the total number of people dead, it's somewhere between 2:42:21.680 --> 2:42:24.720 one point one and one point six million people. And again, 2:42:24.840 --> 2:42:27.320 like seventy five percent, and I think it's actually slightly 2:42:27.400 --> 2:42:29.800 higher from that, like percent of the people who were 2:42:29.879 --> 2:42:32.720 killed in this are killed by the state. And you 2:42:32.800 --> 2:42:36.640 know this, this has an enormous effect on I mean 2:42:36.760 --> 2:42:38.879 just everything that happens in China and Chinese society from 2:42:38.879 --> 2:42:43.120 then on, because on the one hand, the popular memory 2:42:43.360 --> 2:42:45.720 of the Cultural Revolution persists as this thing that was, like, 2:42:45.800 --> 2:42:48.320 this is what happens if you like if people outside 2:42:48.320 --> 2:42:50.400 the party and like students in radicals like start like 2:42:50.520 --> 2:42:52.280 making trouble, is that you get all these people dead. 2:42:53.200 --> 2:42:55.720 But then you know, you have the people inside the 2:42:55.760 --> 2:42:58.160 state who like know how many people they had to 2:42:58.280 --> 2:43:00.240 kill in order to hold on to power, right, they 2:43:00.320 --> 2:43:04.000 kill they kill probably more people than like that, you know, 2:43:04.040 --> 2:43:07.200 they're there's there's there's a very famous massacre of like 2:43:07.720 --> 2:43:10.240 communists or like suspected communist Indonesia that it doesn't get 2:43:10.280 --> 2:43:12.320 called a genocide because it was technically on political lines, 2:43:12.400 --> 2:43:14.560 but like it was one of the worst anti communist 2:43:14.560 --> 2:43:16.440 massacres in history, and they killed more people from that 2:43:17.200 --> 2:43:22.480 during this period, and that like that level of violence 2:43:22.640 --> 2:43:25.600 and the fact that the people running the state understand 2:43:25.640 --> 2:43:27.040 what they had to do, it means you get you 2:43:27.120 --> 2:43:30.960 get an elite that's incredibly paranoid about like anything that 2:43:31.120 --> 2:43:34.400 like smells like organizing happening outside the party. And the 2:43:34.440 --> 2:43:38.039 other thing happens is that like the most radical students 2:43:38.080 --> 2:43:41.400 and workers of this period, just get that they're all dead, right, 2:43:41.520 --> 2:43:44.360 they killed, they killed like they they killed like a 2:43:44.440 --> 2:43:47.960 million people the you know, for for for for for 2:43:48.080 --> 2:43:51.000 every one person who got killed, there's about nineteen people 2:43:51.040 --> 2:43:52.720 who were like persecuted in a lot of way. And 2:43:52.800 --> 2:43:54.360 that's like a lot of people are tortured. A lot 2:43:54.400 --> 2:43:58.200 of these people are like sent to prisons. They're like 2:43:59.600 --> 2:44:02.359 like really horrible stuff happens to people. And this process 2:44:02.480 --> 2:44:05.360 keeps going like through through the seven Like there there's 2:44:05.360 --> 2:44:08.320 a huge spike in like state killings nineteen seventy, and 2:44:08.640 --> 2:44:11.440 by by the end of the seventies, like anything that's 2:44:11.440 --> 2:44:15.040 sort of like could have cohered into into like a 2:44:15.120 --> 2:44:17.279 movement that like wants democraty in the workplace, for example, 2:44:17.320 --> 2:44:20.760 it's just gone. Because all of all of the radicals, 2:44:21.360 --> 2:44:25.840 like and anyone, anyone who wanted anyone who wanted democraty 2:44:25.879 --> 2:44:27.280 in factory, any of the people who were like even 2:44:27.360 --> 2:44:29.280 sort of like just like sort of rebellious, like these 2:44:29.320 --> 2:44:33.880 people have all been killed. And the consequence of this 2:44:34.280 --> 2:44:36.720 is that throughout the through the eighties, he gets politics 2:44:36.800 --> 2:44:40.000 that's driven by this like sort of like intellectual liberal 2:44:40.160 --> 2:44:44.720 like liberal democratic politics that ignores completely ignores work lass entirely, 2:44:45.000 --> 2:44:48.600 and you know, and these these people start to take 2:44:48.640 --> 2:44:52.440 power and you get Dansha paying well, I think I 2:44:52.480 --> 2:44:54.200 think it's it's like right before he takes power, but 2:44:54.840 --> 2:44:57.840 Danjo ping wise up implementing the one child policy, which 2:44:57.879 --> 2:45:00.640 is this like incredibly draconian and really success still attempts 2:45:00.680 --> 2:45:04.200 just like re established the states like patriarchal control over 2:45:04.240 --> 2:45:06.840 the household and strips like hundreds of millions of women 2:45:07.040 --> 2:45:10.119 from like like of of of autonomy over their own bodies, 2:45:11.160 --> 2:45:14.160 and you know, and and and and and it really 2:45:14.280 --> 2:45:17.080 looks like through through the through through through like the 2:45:17.160 --> 2:45:19.280 late seventies and the eighties, it looks like like the 2:45:19.400 --> 2:45:22.160 Chinese ruling classes succeeded, right like they finally destroyed that 2:45:22.240 --> 2:45:25.440 they finally destroyed like any opposition to them. But then 2:45:26.760 --> 2:45:32.840 you know, things get very weird, which is that Setiman happens, 2:45:33.840 --> 2:45:38.280 and you know, but by by nine, like the whole 2:45:38.360 --> 2:45:41.400 like like as as a rule, like in general everywhere 2:45:41.440 --> 2:45:43.040 the sort of classical workers neo meant that was like 2:45:43.080 --> 2:45:47.120 at demanding tomoxy the factory, like they're basically done and 2:45:47.560 --> 2:45:49.840 so they're they're unable to sort of do their own revolutions. 2:45:49.879 --> 2:45:51.160 Now the only thing they can do is sort of 2:45:51.200 --> 2:45:54.600 like latch onto other stuff. But the problem that the 2:45:54.680 --> 2:45:58.680 party has is that so they've had a lot of 2:45:58.800 --> 2:46:00.840 measures in place to to make sure that you've never 2:46:00.879 --> 2:46:03.119 got these kind of movements in China, and they kind 2:46:03.120 --> 2:46:07.320 of worked. But when it went through the nighties, like 2:46:07.400 --> 2:46:09.680 China starts implementing a market economy, right, they start, they 2:46:09.720 --> 2:46:12.360 started they started like cutting this the welfare state. They 2:46:12.440 --> 2:46:16.320 start like destroying the sort of like limited control that 2:46:16.360 --> 2:46:18.600 works has had in the factories, and they kind of 2:46:18.680 --> 2:46:21.120 like unknowingly reproduced the conditions that have been producing these 2:46:21.160 --> 2:46:24.440 revolutions in every other country. And you know, as this 2:46:24.520 --> 2:46:27.480 massive inflation wave hits, they turned China into this powdern 2:46:27.560 --> 2:46:32.119 keg and this, you know, and this combined with sort 2:46:32.160 --> 2:46:37.800 of like the liberal democratic students moving gets you this 2:46:38.000 --> 2:46:42.280 really interesting and weird ideology that these workers happen. I'm 2:46:42.280 --> 2:46:45.520 going to read it from from an interview with with 2:46:45.720 --> 2:46:49.160 with one of the workers, who was that gentleman, Why 2:46:49.240 --> 2:46:51.480 do a lot of workers agree with democracy and freedom 2:46:51.920 --> 2:46:55.080 in the workshops? Does what the workers say count or 2:46:55.120 --> 2:46:59.840 what leader says? We later talked about it in the factory, 2:47:00.040 --> 2:47:03.400 the dictatorship. Sorry, in the factory, the director is a dictator. 2:47:04.360 --> 2:47:07.039 What one man says goes. If you view the state 2:47:07.120 --> 2:47:10.119 through the factory, it's about the same one man rule. 2:47:10.480 --> 2:47:12.920 Our objective is not very high. We just want workers 2:47:13.000 --> 2:47:17.240 to have their own independent organizations in work units. It's 2:47:17.320 --> 2:47:19.840 personal rule. For example, if I want to change jobs, 2:47:19.879 --> 2:47:22.360 the bus company foreman won't let me go. I ought 2:47:22.400 --> 2:47:24.600 to go home at five at five pm, but he 2:47:24.680 --> 2:47:26.600 tells me to work over time for two hours and 2:47:26.680 --> 2:47:29.720 if I don't cut my bonus, this is a personal rule. 2:47:30.280 --> 2:47:32.560 A factory should have a system. If workers wants to 2:47:32.640 --> 2:47:34.520 change jobs, they ought to have a system of rules 2:47:34.560 --> 2:47:36.800 to decide how to do it. Also, these rules should 2:47:36.800 --> 2:47:39.240 be decided upon by everyone and then afterwards anyone who 2:47:39.320 --> 2:47:41.800 violates it will be punished according to the rules. This 2:47:42.000 --> 2:47:44.080 is rule by law. Now, we don't have this kind 2:47:44.120 --> 2:47:50.520 of legal system. And Okay, that's a really like I 2:47:50.560 --> 2:47:52.360 don't know, I think it's a really interesting sort of 2:47:52.480 --> 2:47:54.800 like fusion of a whole bunch of stuff, right because 2:47:54.800 --> 2:47:58.360 on the one hand, like the sort of like ruling 2:47:58.440 --> 2:48:00.720 discourse that's happening the things as you're talking about it 2:48:00.720 --> 2:48:02.400 is like that we need the democracy, read the rule 2:48:02.440 --> 2:48:06.200 of law. And but you know, the workers in these 2:48:06.240 --> 2:48:08.920 factories are looking at are looking at like the situation 2:48:08.959 --> 2:48:12.600 they're facing, and they're like, ha, we don't have a 2:48:12.640 --> 2:48:15.400 democracy like here either, right, And so you get this, 2:48:15.480 --> 2:48:18.720 you get what's a really conservative framing of the sort 2:48:18.760 --> 2:48:21.120 of a very sort of very classical like critique of 2:48:21.160 --> 2:48:23.280 woman rule in the factory that has been happening for like, 2:48:24.200 --> 2:48:27.680 you know, like a hundred years. But what she's just 2:48:27.760 --> 2:48:31.560 think about this is that like any actual attempt to 2:48:31.640 --> 2:48:34.600 like do this right, get gets you to workers control, 2:48:34.840 --> 2:48:39.400 like democratic workers control in the factory. And as Walder 2:48:39.440 --> 2:48:42.600 who well, Walder also wrote another like he's a guy 2:48:42.640 --> 2:48:44.320 who went and interviewed a bunch of the people who 2:48:44.360 --> 2:48:46.160 have been a workers who have been involved with this 2:48:47.000 --> 2:48:56.000 and as as they point out, like this unlike really 2:48:56.120 --> 2:49:00.040 like any other time in Chinese history, like the it 2:49:01.520 --> 2:49:03.400 the people who are part of like the Beijing Autonomous 2:49:03.560 --> 2:49:07.360 Workers Autonomous Federation, are you know that they don't they 2:49:07.360 --> 2:49:09.120 don't have an intellectual class like this. These are these 2:49:09.160 --> 2:49:11.800 are just a bunch of workers and they have very 2:49:11.840 --> 2:49:14.480 little connection like they don't they they have very little 2:49:14.480 --> 2:49:16.720 like political connections, right, like beforehand, like to to the 2:49:16.760 --> 2:49:18.640 lberal circles are just sort of hearing what they're reading. 2:49:19.360 --> 2:49:22.000 And this is this means like what you have here 2:49:22.200 --> 2:49:23.960 is like it's not like an intellectraal like this is. 2:49:24.040 --> 2:49:27.480 This is just a bunch of workers and for you know, 2:49:27.560 --> 2:49:30.320 for for for like one final time, their instinct when 2:49:30.320 --> 2:49:32.800 they when the revolution sort of like starts, is the 2:49:32.840 --> 2:49:36.600 demand democracy in the factory. And this demand, like above 2:49:36.680 --> 2:49:40.040 all others, is completely politically unacceptable. And you know, and 2:49:40.120 --> 2:49:43.000 when when the army markers on Beijing, it's it's these 2:49:43.080 --> 2:49:46.720 workers that they wipe out, and they wipe them out 2:49:46.840 --> 2:49:50.000 so thoroughly that the fact that this is what these 2:49:50.000 --> 2:49:53.000 people were fighting for is it's it's scrubbed for the 2:49:53.080 --> 2:49:55.560 record of the CCP, it's scrubbed like the protomocracy move 2:49:55.600 --> 2:49:57.920 but doesn't remember it, even though their entire thing is memory. 2:49:58.760 --> 2:50:04.080 And yeah, and this this ensures that the meeting of 2:50:04.120 --> 2:50:05.880 these actual events, what the people were fighting for, what 2:50:05.959 --> 2:50:08.320 they were trying to do, has been almost completely lost. 2:50:11.480 --> 2:50:14.440 And I think at this point we can finally ask 2:50:14.959 --> 2:50:19.320 what what what actually was tianaman Um And in some 2:50:19.520 --> 2:50:22.640 sense in the in the Chinese context itself it's a 2:50:22.680 --> 2:50:26.320 transition between two different Chinese working classes. These protests are 2:50:26.320 --> 2:50:29.040 sort of like this is the last like political sort 2:50:29.080 --> 2:50:31.320 of like mobilization of like the of the old Chinese 2:50:31.320 --> 2:50:33.040 working class, which has been these people who had been 2:50:33.040 --> 2:50:36.000 in the cities, who had been like they had been 2:50:36.000 --> 2:50:38.800 the beneficiaries of this old sort of like socialist period 2:50:38.840 --> 2:50:46.440 welfare state, and these people in in the street around channemen, 2:50:46.440 --> 2:50:48.120 they mount the last attack of the of the classical 2:50:48.160 --> 2:50:54.440 workers studments. And when they lose, this entire class like this, 2:50:54.560 --> 2:50:57.880 this this entire urban working class that had been around 2:50:58.400 --> 2:51:00.320 since like the twenties, that have been sort of the 2:51:00.959 --> 2:51:04.000 driver of Chinese radical politics, that had been like that 2:51:04.120 --> 2:51:07.440 have been have been fighting and striking for like seventy 2:51:07.600 --> 2:51:13.680 eighty years. They they're they're gone. They're completely destroyed, and 2:51:14.480 --> 2:51:16.920 over the course of the economical structure in the nineties 2:51:16.959 --> 2:51:19.280 there they ceased to exist as a class, and they're 2:51:19.320 --> 2:51:21.920 replaced by a new Chinese working class, which is drawn 2:51:22.040 --> 2:51:25.720 from sort of these rural and sort of semi urban 2:51:25.959 --> 2:51:28.279 underclasses of the old social system who are like dragged 2:51:28.320 --> 2:51:30.640 into who are dragging the cities from from their villages, 2:51:30.720 --> 2:51:33.760 from their towns, and who now fill Actually, well I 2:51:33.760 --> 2:51:36.480 don't I don't know what the numbers are today because 2:51:36.560 --> 2:51:39.800 it's weird because of COVID. But like there were two 2:51:40.160 --> 2:51:44.000 and seventy seven billion of these people of this enormous 2:51:44.080 --> 2:51:48.640 market worker like force who formed the backbone of like 2:51:48.720 --> 2:51:53.440 the entire Chinese working class. And these people who they 2:51:53.520 --> 2:51:57.160 have rural house registrations, and this means that they don't 2:51:57.160 --> 2:51:58.880 get any of the benefits, like the sort of like 2:51:58.959 --> 2:52:00.840 welfare benefits that you would get from living in a city. 2:52:02.360 --> 2:52:05.880 And this means that they're you know, the they they 2:52:05.959 --> 2:52:10.080 constitute like an entirely new class of of workers. And 2:52:10.160 --> 2:52:12.960 instead of you know, like whatever sort of privileges that 2:52:13.080 --> 2:52:16.199 had been like carved out by the old working class, 2:52:17.040 --> 2:52:21.400 this one gets nothing. And the other thing that they 2:52:21.480 --> 2:52:23.920 get is this entire raft to sort of capitalist ideology 2:52:23.959 --> 2:52:26.320 that's based into like every aspect of the workplace culture. 2:52:26.440 --> 2:52:28.280 This this is massive attempt in China to get people 2:52:28.320 --> 2:52:32.320 to buy homes and you know, the like when where 2:52:32.360 --> 2:52:34.480 the old working class could at least like positive the 2:52:34.560 --> 2:52:36.680 factory is like a place where you could have democracy, 2:52:36.800 --> 2:52:40.199 where like life could be improved by like different controlled factories, 2:52:40.600 --> 2:52:42.760 Like this new working class like the thing that they 2:52:42.840 --> 2:52:44.720 want the most is to leave the factory and become 2:52:44.760 --> 2:52:48.240 a business owner. And you know, like this this probably 2:52:48.280 --> 2:52:50.400 sounds familiar to like us, right, like this is this 2:52:50.520 --> 2:52:53.760 is the old joke about like about the about the 2:52:53.760 --> 2:52:55.760 American working class, which is that everyone sees themselves as 2:52:55.760 --> 2:52:58.680 temporarily temporarily embarrassed millionaires and like, yeah, you know, in 2:52:58.879 --> 2:53:01.840 modern China, it's like yeah, okay, it's like people consider 2:53:01.879 --> 2:53:05.960 themselves to be like temporarily embarrassed small business owners and 2:53:07.040 --> 2:53:12.640 this stuff. This, this this ideological self conception of like 2:53:12.840 --> 2:53:14.199 I'm going to work in the factory, that I'm gonna 2:53:14.200 --> 2:53:16.880 becme a some business owner is completely inimical to the 2:53:16.920 --> 2:53:20.240 formation of like the classical or reservement. And there hasn't 2:53:20.320 --> 2:53:24.480 been that kind of formation in China sense. And this 2:53:24.720 --> 2:53:27.280 this is not really unique thing, right that the death 2:53:27.320 --> 2:53:29.320 of that workers movement has seen a sort of like 2:53:29.400 --> 2:53:32.200 complete and total collapse of the demand for like democratic 2:53:32.240 --> 2:53:37.200 self management like everywhere across the entire world. And you know, 2:53:37.440 --> 2:53:40.640 incredibly stubborn lee like the working class like refuses to 2:53:40.680 --> 2:53:45.200 sort of cohare itself in the factory. And so in 2:53:45.320 --> 2:53:47.600 this sense, China is really just sort of late to 2:53:47.640 --> 2:53:52.040 the game. They they they got slightly early, they got 2:53:52.080 --> 2:53:53.920 they got slightly later to the point that we're at now. 2:53:54.959 --> 2:53:57.920 You said there was gonna be a happier ending that 2:53:58.000 --> 2:54:00.880 they had. The happy ending was last episode. Uh, this 2:54:01.080 --> 2:54:04.240 episode is this episode ending is really depressing? Well, I mean, okay, 2:54:04.240 --> 2:54:06.600 they're there, there, there there, Okay, there's a slightly less 2:54:06.600 --> 2:54:09.880 depressing note kind of Okay. The thing that's less depressing 2:54:09.920 --> 2:54:12.680 here is that for my entire literally my entire lifetime 2:54:13.040 --> 2:54:15.320 has been the US learning from one economic lapse so 2:54:15.360 --> 2:54:19.840 another and the world, the world like the international economic system. 2:54:20.120 --> 2:54:22.200 Like I think I was born in like the middle 2:54:22.400 --> 2:54:26.520 of like the dot com collapse, and then I got 2:54:26.560 --> 2:54:30.320 two eight, and then like there's been a bunch of 2:54:30.400 --> 2:54:35.080 economic classes in the last like three years, and you know, 2:54:37.440 --> 2:54:40.440 the whole systems like learned from crisis to crisis to crisis. 2:54:40.560 --> 2:54:43.840 And that means that there's been an incredible, just like 2:54:44.440 --> 2:54:48.480 a rapidly increasing number of revolutions everywhere, even though the 2:54:48.560 --> 2:54:50.480 sort of like darker gore of the factory like has 2:54:50.480 --> 2:54:52.879 ceased to be this thing that like creates the working 2:54:53.000 --> 2:54:56.240 like the identity of the working class. And this means 2:54:56.360 --> 2:54:58.720 that you know, Okay, so in order to have some 2:54:58.840 --> 2:55:00.840 kind of mass move but you needs some kind of 2:55:00.879 --> 2:55:04.920 collective identity to to mobilize around. And you know, if 2:55:05.000 --> 2:55:06.760 if you can't make this in the factory, the place 2:55:06.760 --> 2:55:08.400 where it's going to be made instead is the street. 2:55:09.920 --> 2:55:12.800 And this means in the last you know, like twenty 2:55:12.879 --> 2:55:17.160 yees years, like with with without the sort of positive 2:55:17.160 --> 2:55:20.279 identity in the workplace to to to to hear itself around, 2:55:21.640 --> 2:55:25.400 workers are really only able to sort of mobilize on 2:55:25.520 --> 2:55:28.040 a mass basis, like indirect opposition to a threat that 2:55:28.080 --> 2:55:30.680 can that can that can confront like everyone at the 2:55:30.720 --> 2:55:32.160 same time. And this is the only thing I can do. 2:55:32.240 --> 2:55:34.800 This is really the state. And you know, the state 2:55:34.840 --> 2:55:36.959 has the ability to to increase the price that basic 2:55:36.959 --> 2:55:39.879 commodities and slash welfare benefits, and that becomes the only 2:55:39.920 --> 2:55:42.760 available enemy. And so yeah, if if you look at 2:55:42.800 --> 2:55:44.760 what revolutions have been in the last twenty years, it's 2:55:44.760 --> 2:55:47.080 a constant fight against the police, because fighting the police 2:55:47.160 --> 2:55:48.640 is the only thing that can that can allow you 2:55:48.720 --> 2:55:50.800 to create a new social identity, like a sort of 2:55:50.800 --> 2:55:54.000 sort of collective identification. And you know, and so this 2:55:54.120 --> 2:55:57.560 means that collected like modern revolts. Like everything we've seen 2:55:57.600 --> 2:56:00.240 over the last like four years. The four him that 2:56:00.280 --> 2:56:03.160 it takes is mass street movements and you know, continuous 2:56:03.200 --> 2:56:07.280 confrontation with the police. And you get to literally see 2:56:07.360 --> 2:56:11.120 this with with occupy, right. Occupied was originally like the 2:56:12.600 --> 2:56:15.280 like the slogan occupy was about the Dargentina in factory 2:56:15.280 --> 2:56:20.200 occupations and in two one, but then you know that stops, 2:56:20.240 --> 2:56:21.560 like that's the end, like just one like that that 2:56:21.640 --> 2:56:23.160 that's that's the end of the whole cycle. There's there's 2:56:23.160 --> 2:56:26.520 no more factory occupations actual astitude. You get one in 2:56:26.600 --> 2:56:28.800 Bosnia has A Govia, which is funny because it's like 2:56:29.560 --> 2:56:32.000 they occupy a bunch of factories, but like they don't 2:56:32.040 --> 2:56:33.520 know what to do with them, and so you get 2:56:33.640 --> 2:56:36.080 just like a regular like occupy, like like in the 2:56:36.240 --> 2:56:38.080 sort of like score occupation you'd get in like New 2:56:38.160 --> 2:56:40.880 York or whatever, where everyone's sort of like sitting in 2:56:40.879 --> 2:56:43.040 a circle talking about stuff, but it's happening in a factory. 2:56:43.920 --> 2:56:45.760 But but they're not like trying to run production, they're 2:56:45.800 --> 2:56:46.960 not trying to do any of that stuff. They're just 2:56:47.000 --> 2:56:52.400 sort of like they're in the factory. Isn't is no 2:56:52.480 --> 2:56:56.000 longer this sort of like space of like creation and 2:56:56.080 --> 2:56:58.600 possibility that could be turned into something new. It's just 2:56:58.680 --> 2:57:02.440 like a place where you go that's like indistinguishable from 2:57:02.480 --> 2:57:05.560 like a square. And you know, the last ten years 2:57:05.600 --> 2:57:07.520 it's like people people. Originally it was like it doesn't 2:57:07.560 --> 2:57:11.320 left right, everyone's everyone's occupying squares. But you know, by 2:57:11.400 --> 2:57:13.160 by about a dozen fourteen, people have figured out that 2:57:13.200 --> 2:57:15.640 you can't, like it's it's almost impossible to hold a 2:57:15.680 --> 2:57:18.000 square if the police attempt to run you out. And 2:57:18.080 --> 2:57:19.960 so this gets your place with running street flights with 2:57:20.000 --> 2:57:24.280 the police. But this, you know, this places everyone who's 2:57:24.280 --> 2:57:26.680 trying to do this in this incredibly dangerous bind because 2:57:27.560 --> 2:57:31.520 you know, the like the old workers councils were able 2:57:31.560 --> 2:57:33.760 to bring down states, like largely they got crushed by 2:57:34.160 --> 2:57:36.360 outside militaries, but they were able to bring down states 2:57:36.440 --> 2:57:39.520 because you know, there is an enormous amount of power 2:57:39.600 --> 2:57:42.880 in being able to control production. But the problem is 2:57:42.959 --> 2:57:45.040 that like you know, if you're in a square, right, like, 2:57:45.160 --> 2:57:48.520 you don't have the ability to do that. And with 2:57:48.640 --> 2:57:51.120 without the sort of without the factory occupations alongside them, 2:57:51.200 --> 2:57:52.879 there's been a lot of general strikes in the last 2:57:52.920 --> 2:57:55.119 four years there's want of peruse one in France, there's 2:57:55.160 --> 2:57:58.000 someone in Hong Kong and Soudan, and every single one 2:57:58.040 --> 2:58:02.200 of them has been crushed. But you know, but but 2:58:02.360 --> 2:58:05.240 this is a real problem, right, because the current labor 2:58:05.320 --> 2:58:08.119 conditions aren't going to produce another way of factory occupations, 2:58:09.240 --> 2:58:12.280 and so the way forward for anyone who, like you know, 2:58:12.600 --> 2:58:15.080 wants to have a democracy in the workplace is completely unclear. 2:58:15.360 --> 2:58:18.840 And I think I think that's the actual legacy of Tianamen. 2:58:19.360 --> 2:58:23.400 The workers who are assembled outside Tianamen Square had already 2:58:23.480 --> 2:58:27.320 left their factories, and you know, for for for all 2:58:27.400 --> 2:58:29.720 that they spoke the language of the old workers movements, right, 2:58:29.720 --> 2:58:32.119 they spoke a democracy in the factory and one man rule. 2:58:33.120 --> 2:58:34.880 They stood and fought and died like we do in 2:58:34.959 --> 2:58:38.080 the streets. There's this bridge between sort of the classical 2:58:38.120 --> 2:58:42.720 workers movements and us, and you know, they face the 2:58:42.760 --> 2:58:45.480 same revolutionary crisis that we face, the crisis of Popula 2:58:45.560 --> 2:58:49.920 and Palestine, Columbia, Iran and Myanmar, Hong Kong. Of this, 2:58:50.120 --> 2:58:52.360 this crisis of victory that's just beyond the horizon can't 2:58:52.360 --> 2:58:54.840 be grasped. You know, I don't think the people at 2:58:54.879 --> 2:58:57.800 Tienamen have any answers to give us like, I don't 2:58:57.840 --> 2:59:00.600 think they do. I think they rent. They headlong into 2:59:00.600 --> 2:59:03.320 the crisis that we ran into, and they all died. Yeah. 2:59:03.440 --> 2:59:07.080 I think expecting answers from the dead is demanding too 2:59:07.200 --> 2:59:10.200 much of those who before and after us died finding 2:59:10.240 --> 2:59:13.160 for liberation and all we can really do now is 2:59:13.240 --> 2:59:15.560 find our own way when, with the names of the 2:59:15.600 --> 2:59:25.440 dead in our lips, build the world they died fighting for. Hey, 2:59:25.560 --> 2:59:28.680 we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 2:59:28.720 --> 2:59:31.280 now until the heat death of the universe. It Could 2:59:31.320 --> 2:59:33.640 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 2:59:33.760 --> 2:59:36.480 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 2:59:36.560 --> 2:59:38.480 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 2:59:38.560 --> 2:59:41.240 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 2:59:41.280 --> 2:59:44.040 to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, 2:59:44.160 --> 2:59:47.560 updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 2:59:47.800 --> 2:59:48.560 Thanks for listening.