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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to It could happen here,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we spend all of our time talking

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Speaker 1: about skincare now personally and a lot of people say

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Speaker 1: this is a bad idea. I enjoy using concentrated chlorine

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Speaker 1: with a little bit of ammonia. Um, it just cleans

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Speaker 1: the pores, It cleans the grout, It gets all of

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Speaker 1: that pesky code out of your lungs. Um. You know.

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Speaker 1: An entire generation of British and German and French boys

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Speaker 1: all agree chlorine gas does the trick. How are we doing?

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Speaker 1: What's this episode about? Hi? Welcome Welcome to It could

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Speaker 1: happen here? A podcasting about things falling apart and how

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Speaker 1: we can maybe put them back together. I'm garrison, Um,

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Speaker 1: I'll be I'll be leading leading this swed um with

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Speaker 1: me is is is Chris? And uh this this random

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Speaker 1: person that we brought on from the street named Robert

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Speaker 1: Um and we'll be talking about some things that are

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Speaker 1: not great and kind of current problems. So I I

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Speaker 1: spent I spent a lot of my formative youth lurking,

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Speaker 1: studying and kind of documenting some of the some of

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Speaker 1: some of the bad places on the internet, you know,

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Speaker 1: Nazi chat rooms, chance sites, Facebook, hate group you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: all all of all the things, um. And you know,

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Speaker 1: growing up in Portland, Oregon in like the twenty teens,

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Speaker 1: this was this was something that felt kind of foisted

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Speaker 1: upon me as as a kid discovering my own queerness

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Speaker 1: and coming out of an extremely homophobic, like insular Christian community. Um.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile in Portland having you know, self described fascist march

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Speaker 1: alongside gay hating Christians on my city streets, Nazis murdering

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Speaker 1: people on our public transit. You know that. Uh, that

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Speaker 1: that that that put a lot of fellow fellow scrawny

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Speaker 1: gay kids, uh to put on black black hoodies and

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Speaker 1: balla lavas to mason fight far right extremists that were

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Speaker 1: like two or three times their size. Um. But the

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Speaker 1: problem is, of course what what what one dred pound

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Speaker 1: Depressed teens aren't aren't necessarily the best brawlers, um under

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Speaker 1: under some circumstances, although they can handle uh the fire

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Speaker 1: extinguisher filled with paint pretty well. That's true. But a

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Speaker 1: lot of us also started doing like online research and

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Speaker 1: stuff um to find like the names and dresses of

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Speaker 1: like fascists and members of hate groups and all all

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Speaker 1: that kind of all that kind of stuff. I still

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Speaker 1: remember the kind of the the thrill and the buzz

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Speaker 1: of my first like big find as as a as

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Speaker 1: a baby online lurker. Um it was I think it was.

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Speaker 1: It was the leader of the hell shaking Street Preachers

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Speaker 1: who was living at the time, fucking prick that that was.

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Speaker 1: That was the first guy I did UM. And I

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Speaker 1: remember being very excited being because yeah he was he

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Speaker 1: was a massive asshole of so yeah, he's he's like

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Speaker 1: a you know, very extremely homophobics quote unquote street preacher,

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Speaker 1: just a big old show. Yeah. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: like this, like online research work wasn't wasn't just crush

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Speaker 1: referencing social media posts with the White Pages, property records

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Speaker 1: and voter registrations to send nice postcards to hate group members. UH.

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Speaker 1: Time was often spent tracking the use of like memes

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Speaker 1: and cataloging and sharing fascists plans for projects and events,

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Speaker 1: keeping keeping tabs on like their current propaganda trends that

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Speaker 1: online white supremacists were. We're trying to we're trying to

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Speaker 1: push and UM. One of one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I came across about about two years ago was called

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Speaker 1: Operation Pridefall. This was this is one of the one

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Speaker 1: of the one of one of these like. It was

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Speaker 1: an organized campaign ran by people on Fortune, Discord, and Telegram.

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Speaker 1: I I came across it a few a few days

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Speaker 1: after the the plans were published online. And if you

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Speaker 1: already know what Operation Pride Fall is or or heard

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Speaker 1: that term before, UH. And if you're you know, like me,

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Speaker 1: and we're on similar online spaces, you've you've probably found

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Speaker 1: the past few months of antiqueer propaganda. The massive increase

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Speaker 1: in the gay and transpeople are groomership and the shutters

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Speaker 1: can get pride discourse to be all very very predictable,

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Speaker 1: a strangely familiar, like the worst case of deja vu,

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Speaker 1: and in large part of the result of years of

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Speaker 1: work behind the scenes by social engineering online bigoted trolls

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Speaker 1: and self described fascists. So we're gonna we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: today about kind of the overlap between this this thing

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Speaker 1: called Operation pridefall uh, the Groomer discourse and how that

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Speaker 1: kind of feeds into kink It Pride discourse. So three

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Speaker 1: things that are not great, that don't go great but

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Speaker 1: actually do kind of go great together. So a first,

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Speaker 1: first of all, a little a little background on the

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Speaker 1: whole recent Groomer thing, because we haven't actually discussed the

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Speaker 1: Groomer stuff in depth on the pod yet. Sure haven't

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Speaker 1: you know why we haven't. I'd be like, whenever like

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Speaker 1: horrible things happen in the news, I try to push

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Speaker 1: back on just releasing an episode immediately covering it in

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Speaker 1: case we have something like actually good to say. Um.

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Speaker 1: So we've kind of waited to talk about the group

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Speaker 1: of discourse stuff for a long time. UM, And I

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Speaker 1: think now is is totally is totally fine to do

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Speaker 1: so because we've had we've had months to let it

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Speaker 1: to let it simmer. Look at like the types of

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Speaker 1: things they're encouraging, look at all of like the physical

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Speaker 1: action they're trying to do, and with Pride Month approaching,

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Speaker 1: we're going to see a resurgence of it in the

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Speaker 1: next few weeks here. Um So, as mentioned in our

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Speaker 1: in our week long War on Transpeople episodes which was

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Speaker 1: released like right before the new wave of the groomer

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Speaker 1: ship accelerated, but in those episodes, we talked about the

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Speaker 1: long history of conservatives and evangelical organizations promoting the false

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Speaker 1: narrative targeted at parents and like concerned citizens that gay people,

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Speaker 1: especially gay men, are more likely to be child predators

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Speaker 1: than their heterosexual counterparts, along with the idea that queer

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Speaker 1: people are out to quote groom you're definitely on straight

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Speaker 1: child into being gay, right, uh so in insinuating that

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Speaker 1: that that they can then like have sex with them

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Speaker 1: or something. Um, it's but yeah, they're trying to scare

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Speaker 1: parents to be like gay people are out to get

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Speaker 1: your kids. Um So, the actual like idea of what

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Speaker 1: being a groomer means changes based on who you're talking to. Um.

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Speaker 1: In part two, I'm gonna going to quote a conservative

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Speaker 1: writer who like admits this as as such, but still

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Speaker 1: defends the use of the term um Because at the

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Speaker 1: very least, if they used grooming within the context of

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Speaker 1: turning your again absolutely completely heterosexual child um into a

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Speaker 1: gay person. Thus they would, you know, begin to hate

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Speaker 1: you and resent you as a parent for your godly

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Speaker 1: Christian values. They also consider that grooming. Um, it's not,

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Speaker 1: it's not, it's not. Actually, just as a general rule,

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Speaker 1: the attitude is if they do not turn out to

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Speaker 1: be the exact kind of weirdo Christian as their parents,

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Speaker 1: they were groomed by somebody, and it's merely a matter

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Speaker 1: of picking the topic of the person to blame. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And all of that sort of rhetoric was extremely popular

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Speaker 1: through like the eighties and nineties and the early two thousand's. Um.

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Speaker 1: But then came the knots in the twenty teens and

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Speaker 1: this this this kind of had an attitude shift and

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Speaker 1: some of that started to go away. Got we got

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Speaker 1: a queer eye, we got ellen uh. The rate of

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Speaker 1: conversion therapy started to decline. It was getting banned in

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Speaker 1: more states. There was more queer acceptance in certain in

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Speaker 1: certain sects of the church. Even of course gay marriage

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Speaker 1: went national in and eventually being like aggressively homophobic became

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Speaker 1: like not a good look. It did. It was not

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Speaker 1: you were not able to do that anymore, um, and

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Speaker 1: still be able to have and and and and do

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Speaker 1: it as like nonchalantly as you were as you used

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Speaker 1: to be able to, whether that's in your like TV show,

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Speaker 1: or whether that's you as a corporation UM, or you know,

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Speaker 1: some random other sectors of public life. But then, of

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Speaker 1: course Trump got elected year after gay marriage went national,

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Speaker 1: and then there's this resurgence in far right extremism, and

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Speaker 1: the more commonly accepted kind of nonchalant gay bashing of

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Speaker 1: old gets passed down to the next freak down the line,

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Speaker 1: which is trans people. So with that, the the adage

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Speaker 1: of like the disgusting groomer freaks are going to turn

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Speaker 1: your kids gay turns into the gender ideology freaks are

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Speaker 1: going to turn your kids trans. It's all the same stuff,

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Speaker 1: just passed on to the next to the next thing, um.

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Speaker 1: And so we have that like anti trans and therefore

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Speaker 1: anti queer hate festering for a few years, And this

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Speaker 1: inevitably opens up the door just a revival of classic homophobia. Um.

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Speaker 1: Even even liberals like Front of the Pot at J. K.

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Speaker 1: Rowling um and lots of the original Turfs got to

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Speaker 1: apply the same homophobic rhetoric to trans people, um and

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Speaker 1: gender nonconforming folks, which then obviously results in that propaganda

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Speaker 1: and rhetoric being used to attack LGBTQ people on a

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Speaker 1: whole once again. So it's it's resurrecting these old homophobic

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Speaker 1: tropes and just applying it to a new generation of

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Speaker 1: queer people. Um and uh So for this next part,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna we're not gonna talk about lives of TikTok

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Speaker 1: because they did play a big, big part in what's

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Speaker 1: what's some current discourses today? And I promise we'll get

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Speaker 1: to operation I'd fall here shortly, just just hanging there

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Speaker 1: with me. But before we talk about again, other friend

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Speaker 1: of the pod, lives of TikTok Um, do you know

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Speaker 1: what else it wants to turn your kids gay? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Are you talking about the Washington State Highway Patrol? Because yes,

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Speaker 1: they absolutely do, Garrison. That's the one guarantee the Washington

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Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol makes. They'll make your kids gay. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Lives of TikTok joins the fight today, And I let's

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Speaker 1: just take a moment to acknowledge how fucking frustrating it

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Speaker 1: is that we have to discuss seriously TikTok that matters,

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Speaker 1: like the worst. It's terrible. It's terrible. People always criticize

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Speaker 1: the show for being like why do they talk about

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Speaker 1: all these dumb social media things? So like, yes, I

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Speaker 1: know that they're stupid, but the bad part is that

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Speaker 1: they actually matter. Yeah, I mean maybe, Yeah, we talk

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Speaker 1: about them because of the seventeen year old trans girl

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Speaker 1: in Texas who just got assaulted by like five dudes.

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Speaker 1: Is she was blamed on the shooting, and she was

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Speaker 1: blamed for the shooting because in part of a lot

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Speaker 1: of ship that Lives of TikTok helped to stir stir up,

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Speaker 1: but because they proved there was a market for it

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Speaker 1: that if you're like a right wing shit grifter, attacking

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Speaker 1: trans people is a great way to get an engagement anyway, Sorry, Garrison. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: Lives of TikTok is a social media account turned to

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Speaker 1: social media campaign started in April one by a Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: area real estate agent named Chaia Chickum, who, by the way,

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Speaker 1: attended the January six attempted fascist insurrection. Um when when

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Speaker 1: when violence broke out that day at the Capitol, she

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Speaker 1: actually tweeted a play by play on a previous Twitter

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Speaker 1: account of hers uh, posting videos from the crowd and

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Speaker 1: talking about tear gas and rubber bullets being like shot

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Speaker 1: right next to her um. And then after she left

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Speaker 1: the riot, she she tweeted on Twitter that that the

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Speaker 1: the event was peaceful compared to a BLM protest. So

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Speaker 1: that's yes, anyway, five five people died. You know, we

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Speaker 1: we've we've we've now reached the part of we're now

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Speaker 1: in tragedy of as farce of the thing that happens

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Speaker 1: in every single state that goes fascist, where all the

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Speaker 1: fascists trying to do a coup and it fails and

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Speaker 1: then nothing happens and then they take over the state.

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Speaker 1: Like seriously, our version of that instead of like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, weird fascist yakuza guys, it's the libs of TikTok.

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Speaker 1: It is the limbs of TikTok. So the Limbs of

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Speaker 1: TikTok was around like the third attempt by right check

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Speaker 1: to start a vital social media account. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: the saying third times the charm, but in this case

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Speaker 1: it actually was. So the account's gimmick is reposting and

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Speaker 1: often grossly misrepresenting select clips from quote unquote libs on TikTok,

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Speaker 1: big big shocker, big big surprise. Uh, But more often

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Speaker 1: than not, that really just means posting videos of queer

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Speaker 1: kids and transpeople, uh, captioning it with something reactionary, and

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Speaker 1: then leading a targeted harassment campaign against those individuals. On

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Speaker 1: on May thirty one, so just about a year ago,

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Speaker 1: she made her first grooming related post, just tweeting stop

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Speaker 1: grooming kids and all caps. This is the first time

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Speaker 1: she tweeted anything related to grooming. Um. The day before that,

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Speaker 1: she tweeted a video of a transperson um alongside the

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Speaker 1: vomit emoji and a caption that just says men should

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Speaker 1: not wear dresses. You can't change my mind. Her first

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Speaker 1: super viral video related to LGBTQ people was later in

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Speaker 1: June next month during Pride, by posting a TikTok of

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Speaker 1: a kid explaining the concept of gender fluidity. Pretty pretty

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Speaker 1: basic concept, uh, but she lives lives a TikTok commented

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Speaker 1: this is so messed up in so many ways. Her

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Speaker 1: Her post racked up half a million views and indicated

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Speaker 1: to her that the way to grow her little social

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Speaker 1: media project into a right wing viral sensation was going

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Speaker 1: to be with homophobia and transphobia. Uh that this is

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Speaker 1: how she decided to continue her online career. Essentially, she

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Speaker 1: called the prominent lgbt Q youth suicide prevention group the

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Speaker 1: Trevor Project a grooming organization, and towards the end of

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Speaker 1: two she kept using that term grooming groomer uh at

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Speaker 1: a at an ever increasing rate. Right It's it starts

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Speaker 1: starts in like May and June, continues throughout the summer

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Speaker 1: and fall, and then in the fall and winter she

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Speaker 1: starts really kicking up all of the stuff around around

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Speaker 1: grooming and queer people. I mean, all of her posts

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Speaker 1: are already mostly about trans people and like trans people

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Speaker 1: at schools. Obviously she was a big part of like

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Speaker 1: the the whole school board thing from last year. So,

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Speaker 1: but towards the end one though, is when the groomer

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Speaker 1: thing started becoming more of a recurring trend. Quoting quoting

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Speaker 1: slate uh. Towards the end of one and into the

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Speaker 1: new year, right check found her rhythm with memes and

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Speaker 1: videos calling LGBTQ people and those who supported l g

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Speaker 1: b t Q youth quote unquote groomers. She has even

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Speaker 1: attempted to smear one of the most prominent gay men

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Speaker 1: in the country as a groomer. In a deleted tweet,

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Speaker 1: right checks account accused Transportation Secretary Secretary Pete Bud's husband Chastin,

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Speaker 1: of grooming kids for his work at at supporting lgbt

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Speaker 1: Q youth organizations. This isn't fair. But I hate that

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Speaker 1: his name is Chastin. I know, I don't like I

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Speaker 1: don't like that name. I don't like that name. I'm

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Speaker 1: not a big I'm not a Chaston's stand either, but

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Speaker 1: but but yeah, it's like finding the most prominent libby

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Speaker 1: gay men and being like, hey, these people probably groom kids,

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Speaker 1: and you know that that obviously riles up their base. Um.

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Speaker 1: She's she's called for any teacher who comes out as

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Speaker 1: gay to their students to be quote fired on the spot. Uh,

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Speaker 1: which actually has happened since then. Uh has has has

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Speaker 1: been multiple times since since since this account has been

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Speaker 1: has been launched. Um. The account's popularity grew alongside last

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Speaker 1: year's racist, homophobic, and transphobic attacks on school boards across

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Speaker 1: the country. She would often posting videos of queer teachers

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Speaker 1: and lying about them grooming kids into being gay or whatever.

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Speaker 1: She was promoting organized harassment campaigns against those teachers, uh,

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Speaker 1: interspersed with tweets and screenshots of news articles about teachers

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Speaker 1: who sexually assaulted students, importantly not posting the article, but

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Speaker 1: just like a screenshot of the headline, along with comments

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Speaker 1: like funny, how this keeps happening, which is like neglects

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Speaker 1: to mention that, like all these incidents are from heterosexual teachers, uh,

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Speaker 1: or like that one story from last year of a

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Speaker 1: cop and his wife who was a teacher working together

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Speaker 1: to sexually abuse children, Like none of them are actually

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Speaker 1: about gay people. It's all. I mean, I'm not certain

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Speaker 1: if a school resource officer has ever stopped a mass shooting,

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Speaker 1: but I know that something like fifty of them have

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Speaker 1: been fired from a lesting kids. Yeah. It's it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's really it's really insidious because she's she's posting all

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Speaker 1: the stuff about you know, teachers grooming kids, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: and into being like queer teachers grooming kids, like alongside

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Speaker 1: headlines of teachers actually like sexually sexually assaulting kids. But

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Speaker 1: those headlines are all of stories about heterosexual teachers. Like

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Speaker 1: but you know, so she posts both of those things.

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Speaker 1: So it's like to like to have this correlation for

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Speaker 1: her audience, despite them not actually being related, because yeah,

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Speaker 1: Lips of TikTok shore ain't posting about how cops should

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Speaker 1: be kept away from kids for the safety of the children. Um,

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're They're never going to post about how

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Speaker 1: many people who grooping stuff have been arrested because like

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Speaker 1: several of the organizers of of of this whole like

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Speaker 1: gave people like grooming kids things like, have been arrested

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Speaker 1: for child abuse since this started. Which yeah, no it's not,

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Speaker 1: it's never it's ever gonna matter, but you know, posting

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Speaker 1: and lying about queer teachers grooming children next to headlines

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Speaker 1: about teachers sexually abusing kids to manufacture this correlation, which

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Speaker 1: is of course false, but it's still highly effective. Now.

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Speaker 1: Believe me, I would love to not talk about Twitter nonsense,

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Speaker 1: but unfortunately to Witter, accounts like Lips of TikTok actually

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Speaker 1: do play a massive role in shaping offline conservative politics.

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Speaker 1: Lips of TikTok was very soon being interviewed by New

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Speaker 1: York Post, being boosted by Joe Rogan going on Tucker Carlson.

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Speaker 1: Other Fox News hosts like Jesse Waters began featuring content

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Speaker 1: straight from the lips of TikTok twitter feed uh, and

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Speaker 1: Tucker encouraged his viewers to follow the account before it's

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Speaker 1: a band if you want to know quote what may

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Speaker 1: be happening in your child's school lass March, when Lives

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Speaker 1: of TikTok posted the video of a woman teaching sex

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Speaker 1: ed to kids in Kentucky like you know, preteens or whatever,

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Speaker 1: she called the woman a predator. In the next evening,

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Speaker 1: the same clip was featured on Laura Ingram's Fox News program,

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Speaker 1: with the host saying, when did our school, any of

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Speaker 1: any schools become essential become what are essentially grooming centers

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Speaker 1: for a gender identity radicals. Um so, yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: the content straight from Liza TikTok being put onto the

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Speaker 1: most watched news programs in the world. Um and as

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Speaker 1: we'll see, also being taken in by some of the

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Speaker 1: most powerful conservative politicians. Mainstream conservative politicians quickly joined in

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Speaker 1: in the tuting of the lips of TikTok grooming horn. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Obviously around as Santis is a big, big part of this.

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Speaker 1: Of one of Florida Governor Rhoda Santis's top aids and

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Speaker 1: press secretary is a huge fan of Lips of TikTok

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Speaker 1: Um and is in frequent communication with them. Quoting the

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Speaker 1: Washington Post quote by March two, lips of TikTok was

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Speaker 1: directly impacting legislation. Rhonda Santiss. Press Secretary Christina Pershaw credited

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Speaker 1: the account with quote opening her eyes and informing her

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Speaker 1: views on the state's restrictive legislation that bands discussion of

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Speaker 1: sexuality or gender identity in kindergarten through third grade. Referred

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Speaker 1: to critics as they don't say gay bill. The bill

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Speaker 1: has been unquote. So this bill has has already been

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Speaker 1: used to get middle school teachers fired for for for

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Speaker 1: saying that they are not straight. Um. And you'll notice

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Speaker 1: that middle school is not in kindergarten through third grade.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, remember when we were all saying, hey, the

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Speaker 1: actually it actually doesn't matter that the bill says it's

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Speaker 1: only up for kindergarten through third grade. It's just gonna

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Speaker 1: be applied for anyone. Yeah, it turns out we were right.

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Speaker 1: Uh So it's this. The bill has already been specifically

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Speaker 1: cited in the firing of multiple teachers from Florida for

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Speaker 1: for just not not you know, conforming to the heterosexual

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Speaker 1: Christian hegemonic worldview, and lips of TikTok is still currently

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Speaker 1: among the most prominent influencers, affecting actual material conditions and

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Speaker 1: shaping both the rhetoric and propaganda while impacting legislation. UM

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Speaker 1: friend of lips of tick talk and descentences, Press Secretary

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Speaker 1: Christina Preshaw has said, quote the bill that liberals inaccurately

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Speaker 1: called Don't Say Gay would be more accurately described as

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Speaker 1: an anti grooming bill. If you're against the anti grooming bill,

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Speaker 1: you probably are a groomer, or at least you don't

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Speaker 1: denounce the grooming of four to eight year old children.

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Speaker 1: Silence is complicncy. This is how it works, democrats. This

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Speaker 1: is how it works democrats. And I didn't make the rules.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, see you see how we have. See how

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Speaker 1: that works. You called you called the dope Say Gay

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Speaker 1: bill a anti grooming bill, so than everyone anyone who

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Speaker 1: criticizes it is now a groomer? Is it? Is it

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Speaker 1: that a fun way to play with words? Isn't that nice?

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Speaker 1: That is a fun way to play with words? Garrison

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Speaker 1: love it. So the past few months we've seen this.

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Speaker 1: You know, queer people are groomers meme reach seemingly never

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Speaker 1: never before seen heights, and uh at least is and

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Speaker 1: at the very least is the highest and most me

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Speaker 1: medic has ever been in the past two decades. You know,

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Speaker 1: It's it's really building off of all of the Killer

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Speaker 1: Local pedophile ship, right it sure is. It's it's the

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Speaker 1: Robert do you want to briefly, briefly talk about Killer Local.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a bunch of bumper stickers. It's a

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Speaker 1: slogan like I know dudes who are not at all

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Speaker 1: fascists and say that because they're like New Dad's and

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Speaker 1: they're horrified at the But like the whole, like the

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Speaker 1: core of it is this right wing and it kind

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Speaker 1: of started off in like the sort of libertarian gun

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Speaker 1: nut communities. But it's it's, it's it's really used a

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Speaker 1: lot as sort of it's a group that you can

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Speaker 1: talk about doing anything too. You can talk about killing,

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Speaker 1: you can like fetishize murdering um. And if you can

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Speaker 1: then like define other groups as inherently pedophilic, then you

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Speaker 1: can do anything to them, right Like, that's the basic

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Speaker 1: idea is if you can get people saying it's always

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Speaker 1: okay to use vigilante violence against this group. Um, and

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Speaker 1: obviously no one's gonna defend child molesters. But then you

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Speaker 1: start making the case that people who are not in

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Speaker 1: fact molesting children are somehow pedop files or you know,

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Speaker 1: or somehow related to pedophiles, and then suddenly it's okay

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Speaker 1: to kill them. It's okay to massive social groups like

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Speaker 1: all of gay and trans people. So if you conflate

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Speaker 1: these two things are able to make these things represent

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Speaker 1: the same thing in someone's mind that makes homophobia now

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Speaker 1: not a bad thing, but like a moral imperative, like

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Speaker 1: you have to be homophobic because these people are grooming children, yep,

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Speaker 1: And you can get you get this interesting thing to

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Speaker 1: which like there are people who are like not quite

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Speaker 1: as far in who will do who will say? I

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Speaker 1: see things a lot where it's like someone's like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with gay people, but like

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Speaker 1: they shouldn't groom kids, And it's like this is that's

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Speaker 1: not what's happening, bro, Yeah no, do you know do

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Speaker 1: you know what else doesn't groom kids? I mean, the

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Speaker 1: Washington States definitely does. But let me tell you, if

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Speaker 1: you want somebody to groom your children, the Washington Highways

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Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol will do that. But you know what

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Speaker 1: they won't do is protect those children in the event

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Speaker 1: of danger because that might endanger them. So look, look,

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Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes right someone who's someone who's killing your kid

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Speaker 1: and you need to get pepper sprayed, and when that

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Speaker 1: time calls you, you will beg for the Washington Highway

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Speaker 1: State Patrol. Well, you'll beg for a different police department.

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Speaker 1: But when those police get in trouble because of their

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Speaker 1: failure to act, than the Washington State Highway Patrol will

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Speaker 1: show up to protect those cops. Anyway, here's here's the bads.

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Speaker 1: We're back. Um. So as the queer people are Groomer's

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Speaker 1: ship was reaching the most memetic and the highest rate

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Speaker 1: of of of trending that it's has had in decades

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Speaker 1: this past April, at the height of the recent increased

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Speaker 1: wave of antiqueer legislation and anti lgbt Q rhetoric. Um.

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Speaker 1: This this is when some terminally online teenagers tried to

426
00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: start kin get pride discourse once again. And I do

427
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: not want to talk about this, but I've written stuff

428
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: about it, so I'm going to this Legitimately, what I

429
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: was like thinking about I realized I was gay, and

430
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I should come out.

431
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: And then I would like. One of the things that

432
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: I spent a long time thinking about was does this

433
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: mean I have to do can't get pride discourse? And

434
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: for a long time I would have said no, of

435
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: course not, I'm never going to do this. Well, but

436
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: here we are, so anyway, uh doing kick doing kink

437
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: get pride discourse? Uh? Then, and even still now, while

438
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: the antiqueer onslaught is accelerating at the highest pace it's

439
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 1: had in years, sure seems to be like dumping fuel

440
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 1: on the fire. Uh what's up with that? Kids? Why?

441
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: So anyway? Uh, the discourse itself revolves around whether kink

442
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: apparel or paraphernalia render the pride space unsafe for minors

443
00:25:53,960 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: or quote unquote non consensual observers. Uh heavy heavy quotation

444
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: marks there by the way. Uh. But also it is

445
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: heavily rooted in assimilationist and respectability politics and a push

446
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: for LGBTQ people to be seen as more acceptable or

447
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 1: more normal while still existing in a heteronormative society. Um.

448
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 1: And now, obviously I'm not a fan of this discourse

449
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: happening in the first place, especially now, like why are

450
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: you doing it now? During all the groomer stuff. Stop it,

451
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: that's stop it, don't do that, quit it? Why are

452
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: you doing this? Uh? But first of all, I also

453
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: want to point out how this entire discourse runs on

454
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: the same train of thought that fuels all of the

455
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: groomer stuff in their first place. It's it's it's picking

456
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: at the same part of human brains. So here's I'm

457
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: going to read this post that went super vital about

458
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: a month ago, that that's sparked, that sparked the new

459
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: wave of this uh much much frustrated discourse. Quote l

460
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: g B t Q, youth being uncomfortable with kinks at

461
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: Pride is not homophobia. Kin set Pride might have been

462
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: fine if this was still the nineteen hundreds or adults

463
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: were the only ones attending Pride, but it's not the

464
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds anymore, and now kids are way more involved

465
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: in celebrating our identities. The celebrating our identities part there

466
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: is really important, and we'll we'll talk about this more soon,

467
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: but look, largely in the past like twenty years, there's

468
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: been this shift with queerness and sexual orientation being less

469
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: about who you fuck and more like a personality aspect

470
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: or a social identity with a branded aesthetic. Um, it's

471
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: it's this, it's like it's it's which is in some

472
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: ways good, like in some ways good that people are

473
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: more able to express themselves however they want. But you know,

474
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: kids at school aren't getting bullied for being gay anymore,

475
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: which again is good, less than they were. They're they're

476
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: getting bullied less somewhat depending on where you live. But

477
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: it's also kind of it's made people forget the whole like, uh,

478
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: like gaze bash back or gaze don't bash back, but

479
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: shoot first. Like it's forgot, we don't have that. That's

480
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: not as a core component of queerness anymore because queerness

481
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: is now able to be kind of more safe and sanitized. Uh.

482
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: And it's it's a right, it's like it's and it's

483
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: it's it's a personal identity in a way that it's

484
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: not it's not just about who you fuck anymore. It's

485
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: like this like personal identity aspect um, which I'm not

486
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: saying is bad. It's just that there's this thing that's

487
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: happened that's changed the way we talk about sexual orientation. Hey,

488
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: quick pause, This is Garrison from the future here, just

489
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: popping in to clarify a bit on what I mean

490
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: regarding this note on identities and identifying as various shades

491
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: of queer. What I'm getting at is that when observing

492
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: some of the baby queers around my age or maybe

493
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: a bit younger, queerness is seen as a more available

494
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: option for young people when putting together their personality or

495
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: sense of self, and more separated from the nitty gritty

496
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: details of who you fuck. Now that queerness is generally

497
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: more tolerated. Now, don't get me wrong, I do like

498
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: the idea of being free to choose queerness. In many ways,

499
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: I consider myself as having chosen to be gay. The

500
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: thing about framing that as your quote unquote personal identity

501
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: as opposed to simply choosing to be what you are,

502
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: is that the former lets you wield that quote unquote

503
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: identity against other people or other queer people that disagree

504
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: with you. It's it's this thing where queerness is filtered

505
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: through the lens of brands and like brand recognition, which

506
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: is definitely made worse by social media, dating apps, personal profiles,

507
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: and personal bios. And it's part of this cultural push

508
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: to like have everyone create their own personal brand, and like,

509
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to identify as gender queer, I just

510
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: am gender queer. I don't identify as gay. I just

511
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: like catboys. Therefore I am gay. It's a different ontological

512
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: framing and one that I think is less susceptible to

513
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: heteronormative assimilationist ideas, and like the capitalist marketing to queerness

514
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: as a brand or as a market demographic. If your

515
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: queerness is a personal identity that's more sanitized, more approachable

516
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: for a heateronormative society, then you get to use your

517
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: identity to attack gay people whose queerness is more based

518
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: in deviant sexuality and alternative communities. I'm gonna I'm gonna

519
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: read the the follow up tweet to this, to this

520
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: thing that sparked the new discourse quote. Not even all

521
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: lgbt Q adults are comfortable with seeing kings at Pride.

522
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: There's nothing from there's nothing stopping you guys from adjusting

523
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: or having after events strictly for adults when they're partaken

524
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: that y'all need to adjust that every lgbt Q person

525
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: feels comfortable attending. So let's let's just do some like

526
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: queer history here for a second. The first Pride was

527
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: a riot um on on on on that night in

528
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: June in the nineteen sixty nine nice Uh, the police

529
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: raided the Stonewall in, one of the largest private private

530
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: gate clubs in the US at the time. The patrons

531
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: of the bar, you know, trans women of color, homeless,

532
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: queer teens, drag queens, lesbians, and leather daddies fought back

533
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: lots of trans teenagers through bricks at cops and like

534
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: a fair number of those trans teenagers were also sex workers. Uh.

535
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: Kink including you know, like leather daddies, and lots of

536
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: aspects that are we now views as like kink or

537
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: b d s M has been a part of Pride

538
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: since it's literal inception, like way back in nineteen sixty nine.

539
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: Um And while like, while drag isn't considered king now

540
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: in two it still is considered it's actually deviant. But

541
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: back in like the twentieth century, uh in in nine,

542
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: you know, in nine, New York City still had laws

543
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: that prohibited cross dressing, So drag used to be way

544
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: more kinky than it is now. Uh. And like basically

545
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: all queer sex used to be unacceptable kink. It was

546
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: literally a crime. It was a crime in Texas until, like,

547
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: do you like? I think right around when I graduated

548
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: high school two thousand three was when the Supreme Court also,

549
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: it's no longer an enforceable laws and it's illegal. It's

550
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: still illegal to own more than five dildos. Yeah, I

551
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: think it's five, but it might be six. So, like

552
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: all queer sex used to be unacceptable, kink and many

553
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: logistical aspects of gay fucking used to happen in public.

554
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna quote an article from them dot

555
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: us quote. For some people, gay rights and gay liberation

556
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: do not hinge on particulars of sexual desire. For years,

557
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: I've heard that we aren't just our irotic identities, but

558
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: for many of us, it does begin there, and it

559
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: does revolve around the ways we organize our erotic choices.

560
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: Before lgbt Q plus people had pride parades, our community

561
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: spaces were not just bars, but cruising spots like bathhouses, dungeons,

562
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: and public restrooms. It should be no surprise that many

563
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: queer folks find their sex lives and their sense of

564
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: community to be intertwined. B D s M. Subversive sexuality

565
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: and leather culture have enjoyed a long history within the

566
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: lgbt Q rights movement. They are inherent expressions of queer

567
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: culture and sexuality. Being free to signal your sexuality out

568
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: in the open within a queer context is the entire

569
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: point of pride unquote. So, like all of this discourse

570
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: around pride and kink, it pride reflects a modern but

571
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: regressive idea that sexuality is inherently damaging to see, experience,

572
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: or think about in a public con text, especially if

573
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: that sexuality is inherently queer. And there's this other idea

574
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: that we see a lot of in this type of discourse,

575
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: and it's mirrored a little bit with like the groomer

576
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: stuff too, that if you see someone quote unquote engaging

577
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: in kink, and like in the case of pride, that's

578
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: like what wearing a collar, harness or a pop mask,

579
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: that just the act of observation is somehow a violation

580
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: of consent. And it's really frustrating because indication of sexuality

581
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: in a non vanilla sense while in public is not

582
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: a violation of consent. Like I didn't consent quote unquote

583
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: consent to see the rainbow cops, right, But public indication

584
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,919
Speaker 1: of sexuality is not a consent of violation. And again,

585
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: indicating sexuality is like the entire point of pride. Weaponizing

586
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: quote unquote consent to call out people that we see

587
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: but don't interact with, who are quote unquote dressed too

588
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: sexual in our own mind is bad for multiple reasons.

589
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: It also potentially dilutes legitimate claims of non consent in

590
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: cases of actual sexual violence. And it's it's like this

591
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: thing like if you look at someone in a pup mask,

592
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: there is no consent violation there. That's a really weird

593
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: thing that people that people talk about, and it's not

594
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: It's not like I'm not trying to start fights on

595
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: the internet with like these tender queer children, um, because

596
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: like and I I don't want anyone to find like these,

597
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 1: like you know, months old posts and start harassing these people.

598
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 1: But that post has like over thirty thousand likes and

599
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands and thousands of retweets, and it basically

600
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: just repeats like old queer bashing talking points that conflate

601
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: kink and queer visibility with public sex that endangerous children,

602
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: and like conflating gays being visible and semi clothed with

603
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: being like dangerous to children are the same talking points

604
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: that it gets you used for book bands conversion therapy,

605
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: and they don't say gay bills. Right. This idea that

606
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: if you look at a gay person shirtless that's dangerous

607
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: to a kid, that's the same, that's the same underlying

608
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: motivation that fuels all of the screwbery discourse. Uh, it's

609
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: it's it's the whole thing where it's like, I'm okay

610
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: with gay people, I just don't want to see it. Right,

611
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: It's like that that that that idea in and of

612
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: itself is like is still like exists on that you know,

613
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: I didn't consent to look at it type of thing.

614
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: You know. This This is other other tweet from somebody

615
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: being like forcing people to see kicky stuff without consent

616
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 1: is really weird. I'm sorry, but I don't want pop

617
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: masks at Pride events for families. I saw that ship

618
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: in real life and it made me uncomfortable. Don't involve

619
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: other people in their kinks. I if they don't consent,

620
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: and like looking at someone in a mask, it'sn't involving

621
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: you in any of these kinks. You're if you're looking

622
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: at someone in an other mask, Like, if that makes

623
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: you uncomfortable, that that's your problem. You don't have a

624
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: right to not be uncomfortable with how people look or

625
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: are in public. Look, every time I go out into

626
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: the world, I see something that makes me uncomfortable. Um,

627
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: I see a lot of people with children. Now do

628
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: I think it should be legal to have children? Now?

629
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 1: I do think that it should be. It should be illegal, exactly.

630
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: So I like, look, we all have to deal with

631
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: things that make us uncomfortable. Look like we have a

632
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: clear solution here. The way to deal with events not

633
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 1: being family friendly used to get rid of families. That's

634
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: it's exactly right. We have to eliminate the concept of

635
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: the family. Yeah, come on, come on, come, Communist manifesto?

636
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: What this is? One oh one ship people? You were

637
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: you were? You were quoting from the Communist manifesto. Okay,

638
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: that's interesting. That's that's not where I got it from.

639
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: But I I feel like I feel like a lot

640
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: of these people, many of them like young teens, who

641
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: are complaining about being forced to look at unquote inappropriate

642
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: things that pride. I've never actually been to a pride

643
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 1: because most of most of modern pride is like really

644
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: sanitized and chill like it's like it is. It is

645
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: overrun with corporate sponsors, politicians and cops Like you are

646
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: you you are way more likely to see armed police

647
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: at like a Pride march then you're then you'll be

648
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: likely to see like tits or like gags or whatever

649
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: like most It's funny to me because like I started

650
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: going to these and this is before the internet was

651
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: what it was or moral panics were what they were.

652
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 1: But like in Texas, I would go to these events

653
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: where there would be people of all ages and families.

654
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: These are like little burning regionals. People would be like

655
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: at like on the big night when people are doing

656
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: like the fire shows and the firework stuff, people would

657
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 1: be like fucking and like manning flamethrowers, like while having sex.

658
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: There there were like there was a whole chunk of

659
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: it that was just like the kink row and you

660
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: could walk down and watch people get like whipped and

661
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: fuck a sibian and stuff. It was just like I

662
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: don't remember any of this fucking. Like the only discourse

663
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: was like, well, okay, we should probably like make sure

664
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: that people know where that kind of stuff mainly happens

665
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: so that like they don't have to walk around it

666
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: if they don't want to. But like it was, Yeah,

667
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: it's like this idea that like not even full nudity,

668
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: but like semi nudity within a queer context is inherently

669
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: more dangerous to children if it's if it's in a

670
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: queer context than a straight context. Right, we have all

671
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: of these even like queer kids can like complaining online

672
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: about being forced to see things at Pride just like

673
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: they would see way more skinned if they went to

674
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: like a beach in the summer. Like it's it's there's

675
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: it revolves on the same homeophoblic idea that like if

676
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,760
Speaker 1: if you look at these things in a queer context

677
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: that is like more adult than it looking at it

678
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: within a straight context. Yes, Um, it's I don't know, frustrating,

679
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: it's frustrating and like another another reason why that I

680
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 1: think many of these like baby leftist tender queers are

681
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: who are who are crusading against kink at Pride and

682
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: complaining about like leather and or like sexy underwear. Um,

683
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: lots of them even uh, first of all, most of them,

684
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: I think lots of them haven't been to Pride because

685
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,479
Speaker 1: there hasn't really been Pride for the past two years,

686
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: and lots of these people are like fifteen years old. Um,

687
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: but a lot of them also just like admit to

688
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: never be going to Pride because they're too terrified to

689
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: see a pop mask. Like they openly say, like I've

690
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: never been because I don't want to see these things.

691
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 1: Like sure, you're allowed to do that, but then don't

692
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: make don't like, don't campaign against King Pride, which will

693
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: result in your posts getting used by like homophobic trolls

694
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: and bigots. I don't because I don't want to see

695
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: a deep dish pizza, but I don't try to ban them,

696
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: like I understand that that's the thing you people, like,

697
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: Like the first time I saw pop mask was that

698
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: fucking Comic Con. Like it's like like like it's not

699
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: you don't see like band pup masks from comic con,

700
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: Like what Like these these people, like these kids are

701
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: are basing their fears off of like a few viral

702
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: photos that are often shared in a disingenuous context. Now, well,

703
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: we'll talk about these photos in a bit, but you know,

704
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: these these people are like fifteen years old, have never

705
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: been to Pride, and are just like simply terrified of

706
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: like actual sexuality, like they enjoy, they engage with queerness

707
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: is like a personal identity and stuff. But once they

708
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: get into like the nitty gritty of like sex, that

709
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: makes them really uncomfortable because their teens, because their kids

710
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: that that's okay. You can be uncomfortable with sex that

711
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: makes sense, that is that it's appropriate for your age.

712
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: But then don't make your entire online presence about trying

713
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: to shut down this massive aspect of queer history. Um

714
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: because like the kinky stuff that I've seen at Pride

715
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: is yeah, on par with what you see at Comic Con.

716
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: I often will see more more nudity at Portland's Comic

717
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: Con than I than I will at any of the

718
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: Pride events I've been to. Um, Like all of them

719
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: more like openly like fetish folks or kinky folks are

720
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: really responsible and act pretty appropriately at Pride, and and

721
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: the people who like say otherwise online generally just have

722
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: not actually been to Pride in their entire life. Um

723
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: because like this complaining about quote unquote like inappropriate fetishes

724
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: or like kinky conduct, it's basically code for I am

725
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with you being positive about the way you view sex,

726
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: and I want you to not show it, and I

727
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: want you to not and I want you to not

728
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,240
Speaker 1: talk about it, which is the same underlying thought process

729
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: that people use to be homophobic. It's the it's the

730
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 1: exact same thing. Um. Now, a lot of this discourse

731
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: oversimplifies kink and b D S M. Um. Right, queerness

732
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: can be about it can be about love, it can

733
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: be about it can be about sexual attraction um and

734
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: both uh or sometimes for like a sexual people in

735
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: lacking one or the other um or both uh. But

736
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: but by that same token, right, kink leatherin b D

737
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: S M aren't all exclusively about sex to a large extent,

738
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: they're also about community building. Um. And I just think

739
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: these these like earnest think of the youth arguments are

740
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: very silly because even when it comes to youth, because

741
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: if you're uncomfortable things, that's totally fine. But in a

742
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: lot of cases, like queer teenagers also have sex generally

743
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: with other career teenagers, sometimes even in a kinky context,

744
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: and that's okay. Pride is about celebrating everyone's individual ability

745
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: to do that. And I don't like it when when

746
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: people just rehash old home of public talking points to

747
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: to especially during during all of this, all of this

748
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 1: groomer discourse, because a key key part of key part

749
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: of kink, a key part of like queer sex, is consent.

750
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: And once you're start you start complaining what consent is

751
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: by saying that me looking at you wearing a collar

752
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: is a violation of consent. Once you start undermining what

753
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: consent actually means, that's like not a good thing. It's

754
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: actually not that is actually a bad thing, especially right

755
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: now during all of the during all of all of

756
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 1: all of the grimmer stuff. So that is we are

757
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: we've gone kind of over on on time here. Um,

758
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: but we're gonna make We're gonna make this a two parter.

759
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 1: In the next episode, we'll talk a bit more about

760
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: like tender queers and we'll actually get into the plans

761
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: of Operation Pride Fall and talk about how we kind

762
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: of got to this point because man, there's a lot

763
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 1: of kids sharing sharing pictures online and oh boy, do

764
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: those pictures originate in some dubious, dubious places. Um, So

765
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: that that that does it for us today. We will

766
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: we will see you tomorrow. Um, Pride is fun. We

767
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: should not police what other people do. So Yeah, anyway,

768
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: Bye bye, Welcome back to get Happen here. This is

769
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: part two of our discussion on Operation Pride Fall and

770
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: they kick Get Kick Get Pride discourse and the grimmer

771
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: stuff and how they all combine in the really horrifying,

772
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: really the way that I wish they didn't because it's

773
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: pretty frustrating. So, uh, last episode I talked towards the end,

774
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: I talked to a decent amount about tender queers um,

775
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: and I actually would like would like to define this

776
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: term here um and kind of get into why these

777
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: why these people are boosting these specific like talking points

778
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 1: that are just kind of regurgitate old types of homophobic stuff.

779
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: They claim it doesn't, but like it does. You're using

780
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: this exact same logic, you're just kind of reframing it.

781
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: So tender queers are this this the type of like

782
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: there's kind of like an in joke for like the

783
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: queer community of this personality type. Generally, the tender queers

784
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: are like a you know, typically a gen Z or

785
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: a millennial queer more likely to be like fem, whether

786
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: that be like a woman non binary or fem person lesbians, Uh,

787
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: you know, fem bisexuals, pan sexuals or like queer soft

788
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: boys kind of they feature this like combination of personality

789
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: designation an aesthetic, and they're known for being especially adapt

790
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: at using like watery language of therapy as a means

791
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: to like get out of most things. Um Ever, everything's

792
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 1: about like holding space and healing and intimacy, and it's

793
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: like it's wrapped up in this like jovial pastel bubbly package. Right.

794
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: If you throw in some astrology, some like corturoy overalls,

795
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: shaved heads and round glasses, and you've got yourself like

796
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 1: a basic tender queer. And a little quote here from

797
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: an author named Daisy Jones from an article that they

798
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 1: made quote just like the straight soft boy who uses

799
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: performative sensitivity to get away with being a little shit,

800
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: sometimes so does the tender queer. Tender queer generally refers

801
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: to a trope in the queer community of a queer

802
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: person who presents themselves as being sensitive, hyper vocal of

803
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 1: their feelings, sometimes thought of as prioritizing feelings and hyper

804
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: intentional language over their own harm and privilege. So they

805
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 1: kind of use like identity politics to avoid accountability. There's

806
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: like this um competitive oppression and self victimization. They center

807
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: themselves and their feelings in social or political movements that

808
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily about them. They kind of they prioritize in

809
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: effective methods of self care. They utilize like gaslighting and

810
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: dumping the emotional labor of dealing with your own self

811
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: onto onto others, like to Tender queers are kind of

812
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: they're they're known to like mask toxicity and manipulativeness in

813
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 1: the performative language and aesthetics of social justice. They have

814
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: this like performative soft hypersensitivity and use identity politics to

815
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: kind of call out or avoid things that make them

816
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,879
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and will like and will publicly declare those things

817
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: as problematic and in an attempt to force others to

818
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 1: conform with their own will. So that's why I describe

819
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: a lot of these like younger younger teens um who

820
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: who use these talking points against against quote unquote kink

821
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: at pride as tender queers, because like, they're the people

822
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: who are really sensitive about what makes them comfortable, and

823
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: they avoid any they try to avoid or campaign against

824
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: anything that makes them uncomfortable, and they use all these

825
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 1: like performative turns of phrase and talking points to to

826
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: avoid having actual discussions about it. It's just like weaponization

827
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: of their marginalized identity as a shield to avoid accountability

828
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: or to deflect against people challenging them for abusive behavior

829
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: or in in the in the in like the Pride case,

830
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,479
Speaker 1: this like internalized homophobia. Uh there's there's the these little

831
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: little tweet exchange for some from some people on the

832
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: superviral kick a Pride post from a month ago. Um,

833
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm fourteen and I don't want to see a half

834
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: naked person in leather straps and a gag and an event.

835
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 1: I take my family too. And someone replied, like, try

836
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 1: glancing Eddie Marty Gros or even a public beach before

837
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:07,280
Speaker 1: you apply homophobic double standards. And then they the poster replied,

838
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: you think I'm homophobic, I'm literally a trans non binary lesbian.

839
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: So again this is this is this is this is

840
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: what I mean when I when when I when I

841
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: talk about title queers. Right, there's someone's calling them out

842
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: for applying this homophobic double standard on how they view

843
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: like public semi unity, right, not even like full nunity,

844
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: just like how they view public semi nudity like a

845
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: bikini or something right, and then they respond by saying,

846
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: I'm literally a trans done binary lesbian um and then

847
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: went out to say also, people at those don't wear kinkshit,

848
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: and that's why I don't go to Marty Gras or

849
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: large public beaches. It makes me uncomfortable seeing a bunch

850
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: of adults and kinkshit being sexual just physically makes me ill.

851
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: People at Marty Garras and public beaches don't act sexual

852
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: or wear kinkshit, And so like, I feel like you

853
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: haven't been to Marty girls like you will see way

854
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: more skinned at a public beach. Most kicks should require,

855
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: like requires covering your body and a lot of extra stuff,

856
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: Like if you're wearing a harness or like a latex

857
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: full leather outfit, you're like showing way less skin than

858
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: someone wearing a spido or a bikini. So maybe you're

859
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: just uncomfortable with people expressing their sexuality, which, in case,

860
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 1: don't go to Pride, because that's what Pride is all about.

861
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: That's the entire poot. But yeah, little the whole, Like

862
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: I'm literally a trans non binary lesbian. Like that's like

863
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: such a perfect encapsulation of what the tender queer kind

864
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: of trope is um and like not not not not

865
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: Many people like self self identify as as Tinder queer

866
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: as it's kind of this joke that the more kind

867
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: of punky queer community has kind of it's like an

868
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: we're putting a label on this, this behavioral trend that

869
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: we've observed, and it's it's kind of a joke, Right,

870
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to call out specific people. I'm not.

871
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: If you're soft and emotional sensitive, cool, whatever, do whatever

872
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: you want. I'm fine, Just don't don't use these things

873
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: as a shield to justify forcing your will onto other people.

874
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: It's cool to not It's totally fine to like not

875
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: like people being publicly affectionate or like doing public like

876
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: It's perfectly fine to be uncomfortable with that. It's perfectly like.

877
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean anything bad. It doesn't mean you're a prude,

878
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. But like,

879
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with people wanting to be public with

880
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: that at a public event, celebrating the fact that it's

881
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 1: they are now less oppressed for doing that thing, like yeah,

882
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: or a beach or Mardi Gras, and like, make sure

883
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 1: you're cognizant if you're engaging in any kind of like

884
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: socially normalized ideas of like straight stuff is inherently less

885
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: sexual than gay stuff, right I always, I mean, I

886
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: advocate people being able to like get into their own

887
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: head and figure out why they think certain things like this.

888
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: It's it's this idea of uh meta thought, trying trying

889
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,800
Speaker 1: to think about why you think about things. Um So,

890
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: if you if you're if you're more uncomfortable with two

891
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: men kissing then you are with than one man and

892
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 1: a woman kissing, you should think about that. You should

893
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: be like even even as like even as a trans

894
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 1: non buyinary lesbian, if you if you if if you're

895
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,959
Speaker 1: more if you're more uncomfortable looking at two men kiss

896
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: you should think about why, why, what social conditioning has

897
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: caused this to happen, Because that's something that people have

898
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: been pushing for a long time, is that, yeah, gay

899
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: stuff is like more adult or more mature than queer stuff.

900
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of of of these

901
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: types of things being at prized like pushing back on

902
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: that idea. Um So, like I think and the reason

903
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: why we see more of these now is like there

904
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: are these baby tender queers who grew up in a

905
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,240
Speaker 1: world where you were less likely to get fucking assaulted

906
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: for being gay, while also growing up on the Internet

907
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: in the age of Tumbler and Instagram. Right, these kids

908
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 1: were able to construct their own comfortable, safe bubble the

909
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: versions of reality online, only being exposed to what they

910
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: want when they want, right they get they get to

911
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: only view it things that they find esthetically pleasing, and

912
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: the pandemic certainly heightened this right with people being forced

913
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: to solely exist in their self catered online worlds. So

914
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 1: now with the outside world opening up, some of these

915
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: soft baby tender queers are going through puberty and are

916
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: dealing with their quote unquote uncomfy feelings um and the

917
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: added notion of being exposed to things that you have

918
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: specifically not sought out like that that causes them to

919
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: be uncomfortable. Right, if if you're if you're if you're

920
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: a FEMI person who has just attracted to other FEMI people,

921
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: having to having to look at dudes be affection. It

922
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: may not be your cup of tea, but and you

923
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: may not like enjoy it, but that's like it's just

924
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: as queer as you are. So if you shouldn't you

925
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: can't prioritize your queerness over somebody else's. Um it's it's

926
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 1: it's it's it's It's like there's this collection of baby

927
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,720
Speaker 1: gates that gets uncomfortable being reminded that people, like especially

928
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: people whom they are not personally attracted to, have sex.

929
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: It's like if they're reminded that this happens and they

930
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: don't like it, Um, it's like it feels like they

931
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: have this sort of like anxiety just about about just

932
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: looking at something that they perceive as sexual in nature. Right,

933
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: and for this for them, this includes other but two

934
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: differently queer people wearing leather or being semi nude, like

935
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: dudes being shirtless or women being shirtless, for like think

936
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: that that's a whole other double standard that should be

937
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: uh pushed back upon. Um. But like, again, it's pride.

938
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: It's not any more naked than people at the beach. Uh,

939
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: So you're not, it's not. Actually if they're very selective

940
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: in the types of things that they that they will

941
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: they that they will focus on, and it plays into

942
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: this notion that's used by all like anti gay legislation,

943
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 1: that gayness is inherently more sexual than being straight, Right,

944
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's more sexual, it's more mature, it's

945
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: more adult. Uh because for a long time, being gay

946
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: was exclusively seen as like a hyper sexual dving act um.

947
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 1: And now, especially among gen Z baby queers, being queer

948
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: is now less tied to specifically the act of sex. Right.

949
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: Queerness is much more of an like an overarching personal

950
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: identity now, especially as like as an intersex with like

951
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: gender and stuff, right, you know, whether that being on

952
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: binary or this other stuff like pan sexual, bisexual, what

953
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: have you. But to kind of circle back to the

954
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: Kinker Pride stuff, people want us dead for being queer. Uh,

955
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't him mad if someone's parading around in a collar.

956
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: If you're uncomfortable, you should maybe learned to fight, actually

957
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 1: fight back into people who actually want to kill you.

958
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: Like Pride was a riot, you should you should sort

959
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: out your uncomfy feelings elsewhere or director or director uncomfy

960
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: feelings that the people attacking us. So maybe maybe don't

961
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: prop up can get pride discourse When accusations of queer

962
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: people being all groomers is that is that an all

963
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: time high and there's fascists organizing to like shoot us

964
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: at Pride marches, So maybe consider that before you do

965
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: discourse on Twitter dot com. I'm I'm gonna do one

966
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: little quote and then we will have an ad break.

967
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: Just gonna end this section with a quote from them

968
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: dot com again quote. Kinks, sex and protests are all

969
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: inherent parts of Pride. One of the core tenets of

970
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 1: Pride is liberation and working against cultural shaming. Calling to

971
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 1: quote not perform your kinks and fetishes at Pride because

972
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: some miners are there and King can quote sexualize the

973
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: event unquote uh implies that celebrating sexuality and kink is

974
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: openly bad, and normalizing these things should be a goal

975
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: of Pride. B D s M subversus sexuality and leather

976
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: culture have enjoyed a long history within the lgbt Q

977
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: rights movement, and such public space of sexuality are driven

978
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: by much more than libido or countercultural impulses. They're an

979
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: inherent expression of queer culture and queer sexuality, and as

980
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 1: such deserve a place at Pride as much as anything else. Okay,

981
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: and now it's time to actually get into what the

982
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: title of these episodes is about. Uh, the Operation Pride

983
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: Fell stuff. We're gonna talk about this thing that sucks. Um. So,

984
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: whether you're looking at the conservative groomer discourse or the

985
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: tender queer kink it Pride discourse, you'll see a lot

986
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: of the same logic as well as a lot of

987
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: the same photos. We've We've talked a lot about memes

988
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: on the show, and I'm not gonna get I'm not

989
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: gonna get into like the powder memes very much right now,

990
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: but suffice to say that like a picture can stick

991
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: in your head a lot easier than a bunch of

992
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: words can. Um And throughout the Groomer and kick It

993
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,479
Speaker 1: Pride shit, there are a few select photos that people

994
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: use to demonstrate their opinions on how gay people are

995
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: a threat to children. Um. Either either there's just pictures

996
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: of adults and like kink associated garb, usually like full

997
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: latex body suits or pop masks UM or uh. And

998
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: there's the specifically like uh. There's these two specific pictures

999
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: of kids just like standing next to adults who are

1000
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 1: wearing pop masks that get used a lot. There's also

1001
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: there's also a lot of pictures of like drag queen

1002
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: story time and whenever, whenever I see any of these

1003
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: very specific pictures, I flashed back to when I first

1004
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: came across the original Operation Pride Fall four chune thread

1005
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: back in because these are actually all of all of

1006
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: the exact same pictures. Um so. Operation Pride Fall was

1007
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: a cyber harassment campaign started on Fortune, targeting the degeneracy

1008
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: of the LGBTQ community by attempting to sway public opinion

1009
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: against queer people by linking being gay to grooming and pedophilia.

1010
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:42,959
Speaker 1: So checking back in two oh boy, Oh boy, has

1011
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 1: has things happened? So? Initially organized on Fortune, Discord and

1012
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: Telegram right before Pride Month, the campaign set out targets

1013
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: and methods to flood the social media platforms of gay venues,

1014
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: Pride sponsors, and LGBTQ people or supporters with spam and

1015
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: t game memes and media, usually photos intended to imply

1016
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: a link between being openly queer and the grooming of children,

1017
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: uh and operating online under the banner of Operation Pride Fall.

1018
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: The campaign started on May tense, when an anonymous four

1019
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: chan poster posted a thread on poll outlining Operation Pride Fall,

1020
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: which was pitching it as a crowdsourced campaign aimed at

1021
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 1: damaging the LGBTQ community during the month of June. The

1022
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: plans centered around quote unquote red pilling users in the

1023
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: commons sections of companies that support l lgbt Q causes

1024
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: on social media. The four Chan post read quote. Every June,

1025
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 1: hundreds of massive corporations banned together to smother social media

1026
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: in posts in flavor of Pride Month, a code word

1027
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: for the degeneracy that is lgbt activism. Many of these

1028
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: accounts are rather small and get very little engagement, yet

1029
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: they continue to post without backlashed beginning on June first.

1030
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: The goal of Operation Pride Fall is to get on Twitter, Instagram, etcetera,

1031
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: and drop a ship ton of disturbing red pills on

1032
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 1: homosexuality on the comments of the lesser known pages. The

1033
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: bigger pages are okay targets, but posts tend to get

1034
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: unnoticed in the sea of other comments. Commenting on smaller

1035
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 1: pages once with less than one hundred likes and so

1036
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 1: means anyone who've used it will see the posts and

1037
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: companies will reconsider their pro pride posts afterwards. Unquote. So

1038
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 1: if you scroll through the archived initial like Pride Fall thread,

1039
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: you'll see a crowdsourced collection of pictures that they intended

1040
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: to flood the internet with under in the comments section

1041
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 1: of posts discussing pride or discussing LGBTQ activism or whatever.

1042
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: Um So in this, in this like crowdsourced collection of photos,

1043
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: we see a lot of drag queen storytime stuff. But

1044
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: many of these pictures and memes are now the same

1045
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 1: ones used both in the recent Groomer thing and in

1046
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: the past two years of kin get Pride discourse. It's

1047
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 1: it's the exact it's the exact same photos. Um It's

1048
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: there's like, there's there's hundreds of them. There's hundreds of

1049
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 1: of photos of like you know, people in pop masks whatever,

1050
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: like waving waving pride flags. It's it's just there's a lot.

1051
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: There's a lot of them, and the specific ones get

1052
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: used for so much of the Groomer ship. Uh. And

1053
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: they really started to gain much more visibility during after

1054
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: the Opertion Pride Fall thing got launched. The Opertion Pride

1055
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: Fall four Times thread also instructed users and how to

1056
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: set up fake phone numbers to make burner accounts to

1057
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: to comment on these on these social media pages. Um

1058
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: There's another really interesting part that the Oppertion Pride Fall

1059
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: planning stuff detailed was on on on discord on the

1060
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 1: Opertion Pridefall servers and channels. The users were planning to

1061
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: repurpose cringe e TikTok videos while relabeling them with anti

1062
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 1: lgbt Q captions and hashtags. Uh, here's a here's a

1063
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 1: quote from there. From there, from their planning planning discord,

1064
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 1: an additional idea, we can read pool zoomers on TikTok

1065
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 1: and literally build a fucking puppet army to funk the

1066
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: ship out of millennials. We should expand this operation to

1067
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: as many social media outlets as possible in order to

1068
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: maximize effort. Let's operate like this on TikTok, convince any

1069
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: gen z sibling or relatives to do some kind of

1070
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 1: shitty jester charade slash horror dance, and then add lgbt

1071
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: Q critical captions on top of it and reposted under

1072
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: trending hashtags. So you see elements of this exact strategy

1073
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: mirrored one year later in lives of TikTok by getting

1074
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 1: videos of people being I don't know kids and like

1075
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: kind of cringe e because kids are kind of cringe E.

1076
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: But videos of kids on TikTok and mischaracterizing you know,

1077
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 1: TikTok videos and adding adding lgbt Q talking points on

1078
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 1: top of them. Uh, just sway the public opinion of

1079
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: queer people. It's the it's the exact same strategy as

1080
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: as a similar idea. It was also implemented alongside setting

1081
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: up fake dating apt profiles do not only spread their

1082
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 1: anti gay kind of grooming memes, but also to form

1083
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: vital content by catfishing gay people and getting them to

1084
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: like be an embarrassing interactions. Uh. Another quote on Tinder,

1085
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: Bumble and Grinder set up freak profiles with legit convincing

1086
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: images and descriptions that criticized lgbt So it's this, it's

1087
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 1: trying to catfish queer people and like, then I guess

1088
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: span them with pictures of these like grooming memes, um

1089
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 1: and see what their reaction is then post it. Right.

1090
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 1: It's so the whole operation private file strategy might appear

1091
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 1: pretty simple. Right, it's like basically glorified ship posting, setting

1092
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: up a bunch of fake accounts and demonizing queer people

1093
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: in the comment section of small corporations and influencers. There

1094
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: definitely is a lot more to it. Than that, right,

1095
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: there was there was this element of like planned escalation,

1096
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: starting off first as like appearing as a reasonable comments, right,

1097
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 1: acting in very good faith, just as somebody concerned by

1098
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: kids being exposed to to sexual materials would, whether that

1099
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: be you know, people in drag at a library reading

1100
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 1: books or people at a Pride parade. Right, So instead

1101
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: of immediately going on like full gay bashing, uh, saying

1102
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 1: that we should you know, kill all deviant trans people,

1103
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 1: which a lot of conservative common hitters just say now

1104
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 1: like Alijah Schaeffer who just posts memes about wanting to

1105
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 1: kill trans kids. Um, these these these board fascists on

1106
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 1: Fortune try to coordinate a slow, more insidious approach which

1107
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 1: they would hope would just gradually turn the tide of

1108
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: public opinion against queer people. Here's a here's the snippet

1109
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 1: from one of the Pride Fault organizing chats. Quote keep

1110
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 1: it normi, palatable and friendly. This means no Nazi or

1111
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:54,959
Speaker 1: Hitler ship. The goal is to make them question whether

1112
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 1: what they're supporting is really the right thing. So as

1113
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: as as Pride progressed the the the Pride Fall participants

1114
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: coordinated on four Chune Discord and Telegram to slowly increase

1115
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: the frequency and intensity of the campaign. Another quote from

1116
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: the organizing chat quote, think about it as waves day

1117
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: one is simply questioning homosexuality, and then as the days

1118
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 1: goes on, it will get worse and worse until the

1119
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: end of Pride Month. So uh. In terms of physical

1120
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 1: things that actually had uh, I believe opportion. Pride Fall

1121
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: resulted in a few gay events getting shut down. There

1122
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 1: was like this event and I think it was it

1123
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: was like a like at a queer nightclub in the

1124
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: UK that that got shut down. There was a few

1125
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: other like like obviously like material results that that they

1126
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 1: had by doing this harassment campaign against venues and corporations.

1127
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,439
Speaker 1: But I think there's they were more successful in first

1128
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 1: of all, spreading specific memetic images that are now commonly

1129
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: used in their grooming stuff and in the kink of

1130
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: Pride stuff some some of which these images were not

1131
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: really used in discourse before but now are common place.

1132
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 1: I think that's really where more of this idea succeeded.

1133
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 1: So over the course of the month, they will want

1134
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 1: to get more regular people to start associating members of

1135
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ community with pedophilia and in order to do that.

1136
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 1: The way they see it is by just gradually shifting

1137
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: this discussion. Uh, and then as public opinion alters, they

1138
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: hope that brands will distance themselves from the LGBTQ community

1139
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: and stop doing more more pride shit. Um right, It's

1140
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 1: like that was that was another big part of what

1141
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: their intention was. And they may not have done all

1142
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 1: that stuff immediately, like they may not may not have

1143
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: succeeded in that, but they definitely did succeed in the

1144
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 1: prevalence of the images that they were trying to intentionally spread,

1145
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 1: because that absolutely has happened. Do you know who else

1146
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 1: loves implanting ideas into your brain? That's that's that's right.

1147
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 1: The products and services that sponsored this podcast, go go buy,

1148
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: go buy their product or get a job at one

1149
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 1: of the you know, you know that what I'm talking about. Anyway,

1150
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: here's here's the ads and we are we are back.

1151
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 1: Wasn't wasn't it fun reading about Operation Pride Fall? Didn't

1152
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: that just bring bring joy to your ears? Me too? Yeah? So,

1153
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 1: as we mentioned, a big part of their attempts to

1154
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 1: sway public opinion, it's by spamming photos and memes that

1155
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 1: attempt to showcase just how dangerous gay people are to children,

1156
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 1: whether that be drag queens doing story time at the library,

1157
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:37,920
Speaker 1: photos of gay people doing quote unquote can get Pride um.

1158
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: You know, basically basically they're trying to say, how could

1159
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:44,400
Speaker 1: any reasonable person or corporation support pride. It's essentially a

1160
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 1: grooming parade, right that that's the that's the thing that

1161
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: they were trying to implant. And one of the things

1162
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 1: that Operation Pride Fell was successful in was popularizing a

1163
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 1: few of these can get Pride photos, many of which

1164
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 1: were then subsequently used last year during can Get Pride

1165
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,919
Speaker 1: discourse um, and used this year as well. Uh, most

1166
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 1: mostly by some some like anti sex people on the left, um,

1167
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 1: and some of these young tender queers. Uh. And you

1168
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 1: know that this this the same photos are used in

1169
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: grooming stuff and in Pride Fall stuff and and can't

1170
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 1: Get Pride stuff, because it's the same based psychology at play, right,

1171
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 1: the idea that sexuality in a queer sense is dangerous

1172
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 1: and way more deviant than sexuality in a heterosexual context. Right,

1173
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 1: Like straight people kissing is rated, gay gay people kissing

1174
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: is rated PG or PG thirteen. Uh, it's it's it's

1175
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: that idea but accelerated. Another correlation between the openly homophobic

1176
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: groomer talking points and like the tender queer stuff is

1177
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 1: this is this idea that I'm only comfortable seeing expressions

1178
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 1: of sexuality that I can relate to or also find attractive.

1179
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 1: And another interesting thing about a lot of these photos

1180
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 1: is that a lot of these photos that they use

1181
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 1: aren't actually photos of Pride. A lot of a lot

1182
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 1: of the photos that they use are actually from the

1183
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:05,560
Speaker 1: Fulsome Street Fair, which is like a kink festival. It

1184
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 1: takes place in San Francisco every year. Hard to exaggerate

1185
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 1: how horny the Fulsome Street fat. So it's very horny.

1186
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 1: But also, obviously because gay people have sex, gay people

1187
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 1: also exist at the Fulsome Street Fair. Um. They may

1188
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 1: even wave a Pride flag shocking. Um. So a lot

1189
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 1: of these photos that that that they use in the

1190
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 1: grooming stuff and the kink it Pride stuff are actually

1191
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:34,560
Speaker 1: from the Fulsome Street Fair. There are actually photos of

1192
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 1: Pride parades, of it's and it's it's and of course

1193
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 1: anyone who's been to Pride we kind of know that

1194
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 1: because Pride is not like the Fulsome Street Fair, they

1195
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,799
Speaker 1: are very different to vents. And that's another an indicator

1196
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 1: of how a lot of these people who prop up

1197
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 1: this discourse online have never been to Pride either, because

1198
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,080
Speaker 1: they're sharing photos at the Fulsome Street Fair and saying

1199
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 1: it's Pride. Um. Obviously, lots of these Nazis on fourtune,

1200
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,439
Speaker 1: I've never been to the Fulsome Street Fair or Pride. Uh.

1201
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 1: But they they also share these same photos because hey,

1202
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 1: it's it's people who look gay doing sexual things in public.

1203
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: That means it's at Pride and it's a danger to children,

1204
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 1: even though a lot of them are actually at the

1205
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: Fulsome Street Fair. Um. So if then, if if you're

1206
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 1: a queer person and you're reposting these fulsome Street Fair

1207
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 1: pictures and claiming to be from and claiming that they're

1208
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,600
Speaker 1: from a Pride parade, uh to bash like kink it

1209
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 1: Pride stuff? Uh, reconsider that because you're basically just doing

1210
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 1: the work that neo Nazis wants to do. Uh. Just

1211
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: you're just doing it on your own time, right Like

1212
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 1: it's you're repurposing the exact same photos that they were

1213
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 1: that they were putting out there within this context and

1214
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 1: just not even not even knowing where these where. These

1215
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 1: where these pictures are from. Um so stop stop that

1216
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 1: I can consider not if if you have to, like

1217
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 1: if you're gonna go to all of this work to

1218
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 1: denounce queer people for like existing, maybe you should consider

1219
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 1: why you're doing that, because wow, that's that sucks. Because

1220
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 1: calling the fulsome street Fair a pride parade and then

1221
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 1: demonizing it because then then and then and then demonizing

1222
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 1: pride because there's people who act like pretty kinky is

1223
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 1: not not great because that's not what anything is happening.

1224
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,720
Speaker 1: You're none of none, none of that is accurate. So

1225
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 1: that's it's really frustrating to look at to look at

1226
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: all of all of the ways these things, these things combined,

1227
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 1: because you get you get intender queers sharing fulsome street

1228
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 1: Fair pictures, you get conservative politicians sharing them all calling

1229
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 1: them pride stuff. To begin, like a lot of the

1230
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 1: stuff you see there isn't even like a lot of

1231
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 1: them isn't like a lot of pictures don't even have

1232
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:56,280
Speaker 1: like full nudity. Um so that's not necessarily like's not

1233
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:59,559
Speaker 1: it's not even super important, but it's you're conflating these

1234
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,479
Speaker 1: these things in a really disingenuous way, and you're just

1235
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: repeating the exact same things that Nazis have been trying

1236
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:08,759
Speaker 1: to get you to repeat for years, and you should

1237
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 1: consider why that happens. So all of the grimming stuff

1238
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:15,560
Speaker 1: obviously has gotten has gotten worse in the in the

1239
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 1: past few months. Uh definitely definitely ballooned around the around

1240
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 1: the don't say gay bill, and this got tied into

1241
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of stuff happening in Florida with the

1242
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 1: Disney Corporation, and a lot of the grimming stuff got

1243
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 1: tied to conservatives attacking Disney now um and calling Disney

1244
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 1: a grooming organization. We've had We've had far right candidates

1245
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:40,960
Speaker 1: show up in front of in front of Disney World

1246
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 1: to do protests. We've had Nazis show up in front

1247
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,280
Speaker 1: of Disney World to do protests. You've seen a lot

1248
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 1: of mega people show up at Disney World to do protests, UM,

1249
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 1: all against Disney's grooming of children by including anything not

1250
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 1: street in any of their materials, which has already like

1251
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,280
Speaker 1: so little um, which is also just extremely funny. I

1252
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:08,800
Speaker 1: like imagining you bring Walt Disney, Disney come on, like

1253
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:15,600
Speaker 1: it's all on the same side here, Like yeah, and

1254
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 1: like I don't know like do you I don't know

1255
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,720
Speaker 1: if I really actually think that, like do you do

1256
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:26,440
Speaker 1: all these all these people actually think that millions of teachers, democrats,

1257
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:29,439
Speaker 1: corporate entertainment creators are all complicit and it's in a

1258
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 1: long term planning of like to to sexually groom miners.

1259
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 1: Some some might believe that, right, that that kind of

1260
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 1: that kind of overlaps with some to and on stuff

1261
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:43,599
Speaker 1: in the paranoia around like child trafficking. But I think

1262
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,679
Speaker 1: others understand that they're kind of being hyperbolic and they're

1263
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: being inflammatory to get people angry and to get people

1264
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 1: like very very like active in their in their hatred

1265
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:58,400
Speaker 1: of gay people. Right. They needs to old school homophobia

1266
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 1: kind of became a bad look. They need to find

1267
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:02,640
Speaker 1: a new way to rebrand it. And now it's with

1268
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 1: this groomer stuff and like a gay teachers, trans teachers, right,

1269
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 1: gender identity stuff, right, a lot of it is now

1270
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:13,600
Speaker 1: wrapped up in like trans issues. Um, But I I

1271
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,599
Speaker 1: want to read this quote by a right wing writer

1272
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,680
Speaker 1: named Rod Dreer. It was it was, it was. It

1273
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:23,800
Speaker 1: was cited in the Atlantic, and I think it's actually

1274
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:26,040
Speaker 1: a really good look at how the people who are

1275
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 1: smart on the right, Um, how that they are intentionally

1276
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 1: using this grooming label. Quote about the term groomers, it's

1277
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:38,800
Speaker 1: usually used to describe pedophiles who are preparing innocent kids

1278
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 1: for sexual exploitation. I think it is coming to have

1279
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 1: a somewhat broader meaning an adult who wants to separate

1280
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 1: children from a normative sexual and gender identity, to inspire

1281
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 1: confusion in them and to turn them against their parents

1282
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 1: and all the normative traditions and institutions in society. It

1283
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 1: may not be specifically to groom them for sexual activity,

1284
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:04,800
Speaker 1: but it is certainly to groom them to take them

1285
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:08,720
Speaker 1: on a sexual slash gender identity at odds with the

1286
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 1: norm which really I think that that quote, that quote

1287
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 1: really showcases what's going on in their brains there. Yeah, well,

1288
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,120
Speaker 1: and this is something I think like Drere, like Rob

1289
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:21,719
Speaker 1: Drear in particular, doing this, I think it's a really

1290
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 1: bad sign because there's people who don't know who Rob

1291
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 1: Drere is. He's like a weirdo Catholic guy. He's been

1292
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,560
Speaker 1: like a right wing like Catholic. I think he's a

1293
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 1: roving Catholic calumnist for a long time. And like, you know,

1294
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:36,160
Speaker 1: if you go back to like two seventeen. His big

1295
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: thing was his whope was a thing called the Benedict option,

1296
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 1: which was basically like, okay, so like secular society has

1297
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:45,519
Speaker 1: become corrupted, like Christians should just pull out of it,

1298
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 1: right and go live with their own communities that can

1299
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:49,160
Speaker 1: be sort of like like you know, we we like

1300
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:51,560
Speaker 1: we we we we've we've lost this world. We have

1301
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:54,120
Speaker 1: to like create a new world which we can live

1302
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:57,960
Speaker 1: around and sort of like Christian truth or whatever. And

1303
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 1: he he was in this long running kind of like

1304
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 1: battle with a sort of like I guess like openly

1305
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 1: philangious kind of like openly fascists, I mean, not quite

1306
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:14,000
Speaker 1: openly fascist, but like people people who are reading uh,

1307
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 1: like what's his name, people who are reading Schmidt, and

1308
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 1: like the Nazi lawyers who were like, okay, well we

1309
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:23,840
Speaker 1: you know, instead of as opposed to this thing of

1310
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:25,800
Speaker 1: like word Catholics, we're going to pull back from the world,

1311
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 1: their thing was we're going to use We're going to

1312
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 1: use like the states to enforce Christian doctrine. And Drere

1313
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:35,720
Speaker 1: had sort of like fought that. And the fact that

1314
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 1: Drere is now just full on in this grooming ship,

1315
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:43,160
Speaker 1: right that is really bad. Yep. And and looking again,

1316
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 1: you know if even if you want to go back

1317
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 1: into his history, right, like, this is this is the

1318
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:48,639
Speaker 1: kind of flip that happened that brought the evangelicals into

1319
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 1: the political scene, right, Like, you have this flip from

1320
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:53,640
Speaker 1: like people being like while the raptures coming insidees and

1321
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 1: peers who are not gonna become be politically engaged too.

1322
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 1: Oh hey, look we can use the state to just

1323
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:01,599
Speaker 1: like destroyer, pull lenemies and create the kingdom of Heaven

1324
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 1: on earth. And yeah, this is this is not good.

1325
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 1: This is yeah. But I think specifically that quotes a

1326
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 1: really good insight the smart conservatives who know what they're doing,

1327
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 1: Like they know it's not actual grooming, but it's if

1328
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: they can if they can use that word within the

1329
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:23,599
Speaker 1: context to being like it's about getting it's about getting

1330
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:28,559
Speaker 1: kids to adopt a non normative sexual identity. Again, it's

1331
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 1: like non normative, right, It's it's confusion in them turning

1332
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:36,200
Speaker 1: them against the institutions in society. Right, all of all

1333
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 1: of these things that is that is mirrored across lots

1334
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 1: of the groom discourse, the Kinker pride discourse, all this

1335
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:43,960
Speaker 1: kind of stuff it's it's it's the same, it's the

1336
01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:47,519
Speaker 1: same thing. It's like a non normative sexuality is more

1337
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:52,400
Speaker 1: sexual than a normative sexuality. It's this whole idea, man,

1338
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:55,800
Speaker 1: And it's not great because it's not going to stop

1339
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 1: with kids either. Uh, it's not gonna we we I

1340
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 1: talked about talk with this a lot. How how once

1341
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 1: they ban you know, trans health care for miners, they're

1342
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:08,120
Speaker 1: gonna bump it up to then they're gonna bump it

1343
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:11,640
Speaker 1: up to no one has it at all. And I have,

1344
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:14,880
Speaker 1: I got, I got an update on that front. Um. So,

1345
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 1: first of all, for a recent legislation, there's the Alabama

1346
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:22,599
Speaker 1: Felony Healthcare Band for Trans Youth, which forcibly detransitions teams

1347
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: across the state. UM. That that that that that that's

1348
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 1: gonna enacted. And in Missouri there's a similar bill in

1349
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 1: the works, officially titled the Save Adolescents from Experimentation Act um.

1350
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 1: And it applies to into individuals younger than nineteen years old. UM.

1351
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:42,680
Speaker 1: And it would it would inhibit Missouri UH physicians and

1352
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 1: healthcare providers and prevent them from providing gender affirming healthcare

1353
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 1: to patients. And it turns out Missouri la Is lawmakers

1354
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:53,479
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, we're debating the bill seeking to

1355
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: restrict access to gender firm and care for miners and

1356
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 1: and they also suggested that access to medical interventions like

1357
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 1: hormones be withheld from transgender and non binary individuals until

1358
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:11,840
Speaker 1: at least their twenty fifth birthday. During public in Missouri's

1359
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 1: for House Bill to six four nine, Lorie Haynes, a psychologist,

1360
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:18,880
Speaker 1: testified that she believes young adults under the age of

1361
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:22,439
Speaker 1: twenty five are unable to fully comprehend the dramatic and

1362
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 1: drastic and irreparable changes their body will go under if

1363
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:29,840
Speaker 1: they receive gender affirming medical treatments like commaunity blockers or

1364
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:34,559
Speaker 1: hormone therapies. Hayes also said that she's supported getting conversion

1365
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:38,600
Speaker 1: therapy for trans kids. Yeah, I'll bet she thinks that

1366
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:42,759
Speaker 1: eighteen year old should be able to buy join the military,

1367
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:48,120
Speaker 1: join the So it's already happening. We already have lawmakers

1368
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:50,600
Speaker 1: and we have psychologists being brought in to testify that

1369
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 1: this is the case. People they want that this is

1370
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:54,519
Speaker 1: there going to be the next thing. They want this

1371
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 1: to happen. Um, now I'm just gonna say, obviously, uh,

1372
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:01,360
Speaker 1: recent started You, published in the Journal of America in

1373
01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 1: the Journal of the American Medical Association found that receiving

1374
01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 1: gender affirm and care including beauty blockers and hormones between

1375
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:11,880
Speaker 1: the ages thirteen and twenty associated with six lower odds

1376
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:15,639
Speaker 1: of moderate or severe depression and seventy lower are odds

1377
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 1: of suicidality. Another study published late last year by the

1378
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 1: Trevor Project found that among transgender and non binary miners,

1379
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:26,040
Speaker 1: hormone therapy was associated with nearly lower odds of recent

1380
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 1: depression or a suicide attempt over the last year, and

1381
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the effects of permitty blockers and even

1382
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 1: hormonal placement therapy actually are reversible and are not damaging.

1383
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:41,080
Speaker 1: Um So, I mean, but we we all know that

1384
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 1: there's that horrible uh Matt Walsh trans documentary coming out soon. Yeah,

1385
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:53,200
Speaker 1: and you definitely I know. In the trailer he says that, uh,

1386
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:56,880
Speaker 1: one of the drugs used to give puberty blockers to

1387
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:00,760
Speaker 1: miners is also used as a chemical cast racian for

1388
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:06,760
Speaker 1: sexual assault perpetrators, UH, which is kind of true. But

1389
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:09,720
Speaker 1: it's castration in the sense that you need to take

1390
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:12,960
Speaker 1: the drug always for its to work. It's like it's

1391
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,879
Speaker 1: a hormone blocker. It's tops the sausterone from from being produced.

1392
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 1: If you go off of it, it's gonna happen again.

1393
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:23,080
Speaker 1: It's not a permanent castration. It's gonna suppress testosterone. You know,

1394
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:27,679
Speaker 1: a popular medication for people with heart problems is also

1395
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:32,880
Speaker 1: a highly explosive compound. Oh no, can be used in

1396
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:37,160
Speaker 1: different ways. It's yeah, like like cancer victims are found

1397
01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: with dihydrogen monooxide in their system. Like so, but yeah, anyway,

1398
01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:43,160
Speaker 1: we're gonna see a lot of We're gonna see a

1399
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:45,560
Speaker 1: lot of lives about HRT coming up soon because that

1400
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 1: this Matt Walsh talking about is going to be stupid.

1401
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:52,439
Speaker 1: But again he doesn't understand the science. Obviously, he's a propagandist. Um.

1402
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 1: But the last thing I want to talk about, here's

1403
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 1: what's gonna be happening in cord Aline Idaho. Um So,

1404
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 1: taking taking their cue from the I'm gonna be I'm quoting,

1405
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote an article here by by Daily Costs. Uh.

1406
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:13,640
Speaker 1: They did a really a really really good write up.

1407
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:19,639
Speaker 1: David new Wars wrote it. David David NewART for the record,

1408
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,640
Speaker 1: Like the thing that he has been this beat that

1409
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 1: that we're in like writing about these people. David's been

1410
01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:30,440
Speaker 1: doing it for like thirty years. He's he's amazing, He's incredible.

1411
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:33,720
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna I'm gonna qute from him here. This

1412
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 1: is the last thing we'll We'll close with UM taking

1413
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:39,680
Speaker 1: a queue from the incoming tide of far right fearmongering

1414
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:43,280
Speaker 1: about grooming and an lgbt Q agenda in schools and libraries.

1415
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:46,960
Speaker 1: A group of Idaho biker militiamen are planning to show

1416
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:49,840
Speaker 1: up to confront people celebrating pride at an event in

1417
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:54,000
Speaker 1: downtown Quarta Lane, Idaho, and in a public park next month.

1418
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:58,599
Speaker 1: Two men from the leadership of Panhandle Patriots, a militia

1419
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,759
Speaker 1: oriented bikers club but east to northern Idaho. Justin Allen,

1420
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:05,759
Speaker 1: the group's vice president, and Jeff White, it's sergeant at arms,

1421
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 1: told a recent gathering at a church hosted by Republican

1422
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:12,600
Speaker 1: state house member Heather Scott that they plan to have

1423
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:15,599
Speaker 1: a gun driven event next month in Courtly in Idaho,

1424
01:23:16,080 --> 01:23:19,120
Speaker 1: the same day as this city's pride celebration at a

1425
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:24,200
Speaker 1: park less than a mile away, and they planned a confrontation. UM.

1426
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:27,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to play a clip of them announcing this,

1427
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:31,600
Speaker 1: uh and yeah, give it a listen. These parades or

1428
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:35,120
Speaker 1: government funded many of them. You aren't aware. Right now,

1429
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:40,760
Speaker 1: in court Alayne, on the tenth of June, there is

1430
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:44,839
Speaker 1: Family Day, and in Family Day they are promoting family values,

1431
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:49,280
Speaker 1: activities and everything. The very following day they're having Gay

1432
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 1: Pride Day in the very same park the very next day,

1433
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:56,720
Speaker 1: where they will be allowed to parade through all of

1434
01:23:56,760 --> 01:24:02,600
Speaker 1: Court Alaine, drag, queen dancers, education, our making all this

1435
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 1: material available for all the kids in a park that

1436
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:11,439
Speaker 1: is designed for kids. We are having an event the

1437
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:16,040
Speaker 1: very same day, that very same day, we actually intend

1438
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:18,960
Speaker 1: to go head to head with these people. A line

1439
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:23,080
Speaker 1: must be drawn in the sand. Good people need to

1440
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:27,240
Speaker 1: stand up. As she was talking about the repercussions, we say,

1441
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 1: damn the repercussions. Stand up, take it to the head,

1442
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:37,320
Speaker 1: Go to the fight if you can possibly. We know

1443
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:39,639
Speaker 1: a lot of you are monitored. We live in Bonter County.

1444
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 1: We are fighting in multiple counties. We are asking for

1445
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:47,599
Speaker 1: all of you to come stand with us. Our event

1446
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:50,520
Speaker 1: is advertised as gun to Lane because it's an anniversary

1447
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 1: of when we stood to protect our community. We're standing

1448
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:57,720
Speaker 1: again to protect our community. We shifted our date to

1449
01:24:57,840 --> 01:25:00,320
Speaker 1: be available to go head to head with these people.

1450
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:04,840
Speaker 1: They are trying to take your children. This fight is

1451
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:09,960
Speaker 1: not just paper, it's not just words, it's not just politicians.

1452
01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 1: They have to see people standing in there facing no more. So. Wow,

1453
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:22,200
Speaker 1: that sucked, uh and is entirely entirely expected. Um so.

1454
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:27,800
Speaker 1: The the meeting at this at this church, read by

1455
01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:31,720
Speaker 1: a Republican House member, was titled the Game Plan to

1456
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:36,439
Speaker 1: Remove Inappropriate Materials in our Schools and Libraries. It was

1457
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:40,160
Speaker 1: It was held at a Calvary chapel in a small

1458
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:44,320
Speaker 1: town north of Sandpoint, Idaho. Scott is a long history

1459
01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 1: associations and identifications with the far right patriot movement, specifically

1460
01:25:48,200 --> 01:25:54,320
Speaker 1: in Idaho. And it was bad. Um. Heather Scott, the

1461
01:25:54,479 --> 01:25:58,000
Speaker 1: Republican state house member. About an hour into the night, Uh,

1462
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:00,960
Speaker 1: Scott invited the tumblsh of dudes up to the podium

1463
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:05,920
Speaker 1: to speak and they said that so yeah, it's in.

1464
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:10,360
Speaker 1: In a flyer posted by the Panhandle Patriots advertising their

1465
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:13,760
Speaker 1: planned conversation at at at at Pride at at a

1466
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:16,960
Speaker 1: flyer that they made shows shows a drag queen reading

1467
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:19,880
Speaker 1: at a public library and urges people to join in

1468
01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 1: and standing up against the indoctrination and grooming of our children.

1469
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:25,840
Speaker 1: And if you don't protect children, you are part of

1470
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:28,680
Speaker 1: the problem. So yeah, they're planning to take a hole

1471
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,679
Speaker 1: bunch of guns the same day as a Pride parade,

1472
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 1: and we'll see what happens. Um. I love that. That's that.

1473
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:41,040
Speaker 1: We're just going to see what happens. And I genuine

1474
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:44,559
Speaker 1: very incredibly deeply hope we're not reporting on the result

1475
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:50,160
Speaker 1: of that because yep, ye. So anyway, before you share

1476
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 1: king at Pride discourse, I think this is what happens.

1477
01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:55,920
Speaker 1: This is what happens when you engage this in this

1478
01:26:56,040 --> 01:26:59,320
Speaker 1: type of rhetoric, that career sexuality is inherently more dangerous

1479
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 1: to kids. Because anyway, I'm sad. Now, yeah, this isn't

1480
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:09,320
Speaker 1: really an upper of an episode. Um, you don't say,

1481
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 1: but it's it is important to talk about. Um. So

1482
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:17,360
Speaker 1: if you're going to Pride this year, please be careful

1483
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:22,439
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of a lot of worsening attacks

1484
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 1: on queer people. Bring an iffac. You shouldn't have to

1485
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to do this, but this is anyway,

1486
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 1: well that doesn't for us today. It could happen here.

1487
01:27:36,080 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 1: Hopefully it doesn't happen here. Um, but it could. Welcome

1488
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:58,479
Speaker 1: to to make it happen here a podcast about something

1489
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 1: that did happen that sucked enormously. Um. I'm Christopher Wall

1490
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm the host. Also with me is Garrison and Sophie. Hello,

1491
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:11,480
Speaker 1: were just in the morning, just really starting off positive

1492
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:19,400
Speaker 1: there it's look, it's it's this episode in the next episode.

1493
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:21,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess this episode kind of ends in

1494
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 1: a high note. But that's great to hear. I'm so happy.

1495
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:32,920
Speaker 1: I totally believe you. It kind of does, all right. Yeah,

1496
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:36,960
Speaker 1: Sharene is also here. Hello, Hi, Sorry my fault. Keep going.

1497
01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:41,120
Speaker 1: So this is this is the thirty third anniversary of

1498
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:45,000
Speaker 1: the Caamon Square massacre. UM. Tomorrow's episode, I think we'll

1499
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:47,600
Speaker 1: actually be going out on I guess the day that

1500
01:28:47,680 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 1: it started kind of starts like the night of like

1501
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:55,639
Speaker 1: June three. Um, and okay, I'm curious what you twoose

1502
01:28:55,720 --> 01:29:01,000
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like received like cultural memory of

1503
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:04,120
Speaker 1: Channeman is because I don't know. I think I got

1504
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:06,639
Speaker 1: a kind of weird one, like being from a Chinese family,

1505
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:11,240
Speaker 1: but as a white Canadian, I have zero amount of

1506
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 1: my knowledge about the tam Tannaman Square massacre not really

1507
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:19,600
Speaker 1: about Tanneman. Uh, it's just yeah, that is something I

1508
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:24,400
Speaker 1: never never have really learned about. Yeah, I know that

1509
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 1: it happened in that's that's the American Uh lesson we

1510
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 1: got on the history of that massacre, that it happened

1511
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:45,320
Speaker 1: in nineteen really mediocre. Yeah, Okay, Well today and tomorrow

1512
01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:49,280
Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna go, well, we're gonna talk. I

1513
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:52,639
Speaker 1: think less about what happens there specifically and more about

1514
01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:56,680
Speaker 1: the sort of broad at history that's in. But I

1515
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:59,040
Speaker 1: guess I'll start out so in sometimes there's there's really

1516
01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:03,559
Speaker 1: three Channeman's. Um, there's there's the student protests that's inside

1517
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:08,320
Speaker 1: Tianamon Square itself. There's this part of Beijing like around

1518
01:30:08,439 --> 01:30:10,200
Speaker 1: the squares, like a bunch of blocks are taken over

1519
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: by workers. And then there's a bunch of protests in

1520
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 1: other cities. And unfortunately we're not gonna be talking about

1521
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:20,439
Speaker 1: the Protestant the other cities because like basically nothing is

1522
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:23,680
Speaker 1: known about them other than that like they happened, but

1523
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:28,720
Speaker 1: the people who would know aren't talking so for some

1524
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:36,559
Speaker 1: somewhat obvious reasons. Um, yeah, and the students themselves, I think,

1525
01:30:36,680 --> 01:30:39,880
Speaker 1: like the normal version of tianament is is like these

1526
01:30:39,920 --> 01:30:44,040
Speaker 1: there's the students and they're like protomocracy protesters, right, but

1527
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 1: they're way weirder than that. There's there's like this weird

1528
01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:52,240
Speaker 1: ideological grab bag thing going on. Um, they're they're they're

1529
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 1: basically what they're piste off about is that this thing

1530
01:30:57,200 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 1: is called the perform and opening like isn't going fast enough?

1531
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 1: We should talk about what that sort of is. So

1532
01:31:03,360 --> 01:31:05,679
Speaker 1: performing opening is it's this period in China and sort

1533
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:09,080
Speaker 1: of the eighties and songs of the nineties. Um. And

1534
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:11,639
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have these sort of steps

1535
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:14,920
Speaker 1: to like ease restrictions on speech and like rehability to

1536
01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 1: intellectuals and like allow for a broader public discourse. But

1537
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:20,840
Speaker 1: the other half of it is that like they're they're

1538
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 1: being they're basically they're bringing markets back to China, right,

1539
01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:27,720
Speaker 1: And this this is a ship show in a lot

1540
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:29,880
Speaker 1: of ways. If you want to hear about like the

1541
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:33,439
Speaker 1: CCP reinventing debt ponage in about five years, um, go

1542
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:35,719
Speaker 1: listen to my Baschard's episode and the poison Milk scandal.

1543
01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 1: It's a it's a trip. But on the other hand,

1544
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 1: you have you know, so you have kind of like

1545
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:45,240
Speaker 1: opening up, right, you you have just more discourse. You're

1546
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:49,479
Speaker 1: they're not persecuting intellectuals again, sort of that there, they're

1547
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 1: they're they're de persecuting the intellectuals that they had persecuted. Um.

1548
01:31:53,160 --> 01:31:55,120
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you get this absolutely draconian

1549
01:31:55,200 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 1: sort of like a set of crackdowns on the social sphere.

1550
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 1: You have the one child policy, you have this like

1551
01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:03,719
Speaker 1: really powerful tightening of one man rule in the factory,

1552
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:07,320
Speaker 1: and you have the sort of the destruction of these

1553
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:10,439
Speaker 1: for what we'll get into this more later, but like

1554
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:13,839
Speaker 1: the the sort of limited decision making capacity that workers

1555
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 1: have had in the factories, um, just is sort of dismantled.

1556
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:19,479
Speaker 1: And so you see these sort of gaps beginning to

1557
01:32:19,560 --> 01:32:22,080
Speaker 1: form here, right, Like, on the one hand, you have

1558
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:24,120
Speaker 1: these students who want market reforms to go faster, and

1559
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:26,040
Speaker 1: they want more freedom of speech, They like kind of

1560
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:28,560
Speaker 1: want democracy, but like mostly what they want is to

1561
01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:30,280
Speaker 1: be in charge of the party so they can crush

1562
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 1: the sort of like bureaucracy they see as holding market

1563
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:36,960
Speaker 1: reforms back. And it's worth noting that like a lot

1564
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,400
Speaker 1: of these students are involved in what becomes known as

1565
01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:43,000
Speaker 1: neo authoritarianism, which is the sort of ideology that holds

1566
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 1: that like the strong central party should take full control

1567
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:47,519
Speaker 1: of society and destroy the factions in the bureaucracy and

1568
01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:49,600
Speaker 1: so you know, and then that that's how you can

1569
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:53,000
Speaker 1: lead development and this stuff like that stuff like ne

1570
01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:55,560
Speaker 1: authoritarianism survives the protests and goes on to become like

1571
01:32:56,320 --> 01:32:59,040
Speaker 1: a pretty major faction in the CCP itself, and then

1572
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 1: now US in two thousands, and you know, this is

1573
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:05,880
Speaker 1: this is where things just get weird, right, Um, the

1574
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:09,720
Speaker 1: student movement itself is very hierarchical, and it gets to

1575
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 1: the point where like but by by by the end

1576
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:17,680
Speaker 1: of the student movement, there these the student leaders are

1577
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:20,439
Speaker 1: like kidnapping each other over like who has control of

1578
01:33:20,479 --> 01:33:25,120
Speaker 1: the microphones and like the stages in the square it is.

1579
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:31,559
Speaker 1: It is extremely bizarre. And you know, and in terms

1580
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 1: of like the protests actually like if what their torches

1581
01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:35,800
Speaker 1: are trying to do is you're trying to influence this

1582
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 1: factional fight inside the CCP over like the speed at

1583
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:43,599
Speaker 1: which reformers are going to go, and this it doesn't work.

1584
01:33:43,760 --> 01:33:46,679
Speaker 1: It's like stunningly ineffectual. The guy they're trying to defend,

1585
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:49,080
Speaker 1: like winds up getting outed and put in her house

1586
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:51,280
Speaker 1: to the rest of the rest of his life. So

1587
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:55,519
Speaker 1: because so those are the student protesters. But the part

1588
01:33:55,560 --> 01:33:57,240
Speaker 1: and that that's the student protesters are the part of

1589
01:33:57,320 --> 01:33:59,400
Speaker 1: this that like everyone knows, partly because some of those

1590
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:02,360
Speaker 1: people escape to Hong Kong and you know that they're

1591
01:34:02,439 --> 01:34:06,519
Speaker 1: very influential sort of shaping the memory there. But there's

1592
01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:10,000
Speaker 1: also the workers that I mentioned earlier, and the students

1593
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:13,280
Speaker 1: basically like hate the workers, um for for for most

1594
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:14,720
Speaker 1: of the time this protest is going on, and this

1595
01:34:14,840 --> 01:34:17,800
Speaker 1: is the this is months, right. They literally will they

1596
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:19,840
Speaker 1: will not let any of the workers go into the

1597
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:22,920
Speaker 1: into tenement square like that they have. They have this

1598
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:24,720
Speaker 1: whole system and like in order to get into like

1599
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:27,759
Speaker 1: increasing like like closer to the center of the square,

1600
01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:28,840
Speaker 1: you have to be a student and then you need

1601
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:30,000
Speaker 1: to get to the senator of the squere you have

1602
01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:32,400
Speaker 1: to be like a member of the leadership. It's very weird,

1603
01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:35,240
Speaker 1: and you know, and like one of the things that

1604
01:34:35,280 --> 01:34:36,559
Speaker 1: workers are trying to do is they want to carry

1605
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:37,960
Speaker 1: out a general strike and the students are like, no,

1606
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:41,639
Speaker 1: absolutely not, do not do a general strike because largely

1607
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:43,800
Speaker 1: because okay, so if these people start doing a general strike,

1608
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,760
Speaker 1: like that's not something that's not under our control, and

1609
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, okay, So this raises the question like if

1610
01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:51,720
Speaker 1: the relationship between the students who are at tenement and

1611
01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 1: the workers at Genemen are this bad, like why are

1612
01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:56,960
Speaker 1: the workers even there? Um? And And there's a few

1613
01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:58,920
Speaker 1: answers to this question that the sort of the simplest

1614
01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:01,960
Speaker 1: and most immediate one is that like the workers are

1615
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:05,320
Speaker 1: initially they come out because they're pissed. They see how

1616
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:08,880
Speaker 1: badly like the cops in sort of like the party

1617
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:11,880
Speaker 1: is is treating the students in the square, so they

1618
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:14,120
Speaker 1: get mad. But but but there's there's other stuff going

1619
01:35:14,160 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 1: on to the late eighties is the ladies in China

1620
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:22,519
Speaker 1: is sort of a mess economically that there's rampant inflation

1621
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,320
Speaker 1: and the sort of rapid increase in prices is a

1622
01:35:26,479 --> 01:35:28,800
Speaker 1: threat to you know, the sort of like cheap supply grain,

1623
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:32,000
Speaker 1: which is like the sort of main subsidy that if

1624
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:34,600
Speaker 1: you're an urban worker that you get. And meanwhile, you know,

1625
01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:36,479
Speaker 1: you have marketization happening, so at the same time that

1626
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:39,200
Speaker 1: every prices are increasing for everyone and they can't get

1627
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:41,760
Speaker 1: access the stuff that they need. You have just like

1628
01:35:41,920 --> 01:35:45,479
Speaker 1: CCP princelings like racing down the street and imputed sports

1629
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:47,640
Speaker 1: cars and like these are like the only these are

1630
01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:50,479
Speaker 1: the only cars, right like people people I don't know,

1631
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:52,559
Speaker 1: like like people are starting to get bicycles and mass

1632
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:54,760
Speaker 1: sort of in this period. But then you know, I

1633
01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:57,200
Speaker 1: was like, hey, here's here's this like party boss guy

1634
01:35:57,280 --> 01:35:59,679
Speaker 1: who was a sports car. They're like spending years salaries

1635
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:01,880
Speaker 1: like umbling at race tracks and people just get piste off.

1636
01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:06,120
Speaker 1: So they they start organizing. And I'm going to read

1637
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:11,120
Speaker 1: from a section of a piece by JOHANNS Jong about

1638
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:14,920
Speaker 1: what what they were doing. Um During the struggle to

1639
01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:18,000
Speaker 1: obstruct the military, workers started to realize the power of

1640
01:36:18,040 --> 01:36:21,640
Speaker 1: their spontaneous organization and action. This was self liberation on

1641
01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:25,200
Speaker 1: an unprecedented level. A huge wave of self organization ensued

1642
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:29,840
Speaker 1: the Beijing Works Autonomous Federations. Membership grew exponentially in other

1643
01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:34,439
Speaker 1: workers organizations both within and across workplaces mushrooms. The development

1644
01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:38,439
Speaker 1: of organizations led to a radicalization of action. Workers started

1645
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:41,680
Speaker 1: organizing self armed quasi militias such as picket cores and

1646
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:45,560
Speaker 1: dat or Die brigades to monitor and broadcast the military's whereabouts.

1647
01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:48,920
Speaker 1: These quasi militias were also responsible for maintaining public order

1648
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 1: so as not to provide any pretext for military intervention.

1649
01:36:52,160 --> 01:36:55,000
Speaker 1: In a sense, Beijing became a city self managed by workers.

1650
01:36:55,400 --> 01:36:58,880
Speaker 1: It was reminiscent of petrograds self farmed workers organized in

1651
01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:01,160
Speaker 1: the Soviets in the months but beween Russia's February and

1652
01:37:01,160 --> 01:37:05,360
Speaker 1: October revolutions. At the same time, Beijian workers built many

1653
01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:09,599
Speaker 1: more barricades and fortifications and on the street in many

1654
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:12,759
Speaker 1: factories that organized strikes and slowdowns. A possible general strike

1655
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:15,200
Speaker 1: was put on the table as well. Many workers started

1656
01:37:15,240 --> 01:37:17,679
Speaker 1: to build connections between factories prepare for a general strike.

1657
01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:21,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, like this is the part of it that

1658
01:37:21,160 --> 01:37:23,519
Speaker 1: like people don't talk about because it wasn't in the square.

1659
01:37:23,600 --> 01:37:25,240
Speaker 1: And I mean the other part of the other faction,

1660
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:26,880
Speaker 1: like the fact that that's going on here is that

1661
01:37:27,040 --> 01:37:30,639
Speaker 1: like so the press Corps is like sitting in the square,

1662
01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 1: and this is why Channa ministers this sort like this

1663
01:37:33,040 --> 01:37:35,160
Speaker 1: is massive spectacle, right because all of this, everything that's

1664
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:37,320
Speaker 1: happening here inside the square was happening like in front

1665
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:39,800
Speaker 1: of the entire Western Press Court and like people are like,

1666
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:41,559
Speaker 1: you know, like people are just like pointing cameras at

1667
01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:47,280
Speaker 1: their window, right, and you know, but on the other hand,

1668
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:52,240
Speaker 1: the people outside of the square, like the workers outside

1669
01:37:52,240 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 1: of the square are the workers are getting more organized

1670
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:57,519
Speaker 1: and this is like, this is absolutely unacceptable to the party.

1671
01:37:57,520 --> 01:38:00,760
Speaker 1: And so yeah, on on on night of June three,

1672
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:06,760
Speaker 1: the army just starts killing them. Um they There have

1673
01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:08,800
Speaker 1: been a couple of attempts earlier to clear to to

1674
01:38:09,360 --> 01:38:11,800
Speaker 1: to clear the sort of fortifications, and it hadn't really worked.

1675
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:14,560
Speaker 1: But this time, like they they they're they're able to

1676
01:38:14,600 --> 01:38:16,800
Speaker 1: bring in builtering units that aren't from Beijing or like

1677
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:21,240
Speaker 1: aren't from around the area, and they kill an enormous

1678
01:38:21,320 --> 01:38:25,599
Speaker 1: number of people. Um yeah, And and I think it's

1679
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:28,000
Speaker 1: I think it's important to note that, like both in

1680
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:31,599
Speaker 1: terms of the killings that happened immediately and the political

1681
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:36,080
Speaker 1: persecution like after that, it's it's mostly the workers bearing this,

1682
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:39,040
Speaker 1: especially in the initial massacre. Most of the killing happens

1683
01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:41,759
Speaker 1: as the armies like fighting its way into the square.

1684
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:44,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean they kill people in the

1685
01:38:44,240 --> 01:38:50,240
Speaker 1: square too, but you know, and eventually they get into

1686
01:38:50,240 --> 01:38:51,679
Speaker 1: the square, and this is where you get like tank

1687
01:38:51,800 --> 01:38:53,800
Speaker 1: man and like the sort of the famous account of

1688
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:55,880
Speaker 1: the massacre. But like but that, but it's basically over right,

1689
01:38:55,920 --> 01:38:58,200
Speaker 1: because one of the other things has happened is that

1690
01:38:58,560 --> 01:38:59,920
Speaker 1: over the course of this protest, a lot of the

1691
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 1: students have left because they sort of they sort of

1692
01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:06,000
Speaker 1: gave up after the like factional conflict like stopped. But

1693
01:39:06,240 --> 01:39:10,080
Speaker 1: so so most of the people like who are there,

1694
01:39:10,200 --> 01:39:12,759
Speaker 1: are are are on the outs, are like other workers

1695
01:39:12,800 --> 01:39:14,120
Speaker 1: on the outside of this car, trying to defend it.

1696
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:16,680
Speaker 1: And when those people get killed and the art the

1697
01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:18,240
Speaker 1: army gets the build the square, it's it's the whole

1698
01:39:18,240 --> 01:39:22,960
Speaker 1: things are ready over and you know, these protests get

1699
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:27,920
Speaker 1: crushed and you know, but before the last bullet has

1700
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:31,280
Speaker 1: been fired, everyone everyone left standing is trying to create

1701
01:39:31,280 --> 01:39:35,120
Speaker 1: their own narratives. But what just happened? Um, the most

1702
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:37,840
Speaker 1: common one is that Chinaman is this like clash between

1703
01:39:37,840 --> 01:39:44,120
Speaker 1: democracy and authoritarianism, and like, okay, to some extent, that's

1704
01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:46,960
Speaker 1: not wrong, although I mean, you know, we've already mentioned

1705
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:49,120
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of new authoritarian students there.

1706
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:52,920
Speaker 1: I but like, you know, okay, this is this is

1707
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 1: kind of a fair interpretation of what's going on. Like

1708
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:57,519
Speaker 1: there's a lot of other protomocracy movements in this period,

1709
01:39:57,640 --> 01:40:00,720
Speaker 1: like the region, most famously there's Tawan and Korean Um.

1710
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:09,200
Speaker 1: But the actual question of what's happening here is is

1711
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 1: really a question of what kind of democracy there's You

1712
01:40:13,120 --> 01:40:16,400
Speaker 1: know that that these people are fighting for the students

1713
01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:18,719
Speaker 1: at Tianamens. You know to the extent that their democratic

1714
01:40:18,760 --> 01:40:21,680
Speaker 1: principles are sincere and not a cover for a sort

1715
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:26,120
Speaker 1: of like deeply authoritarian version of liberalism that's you know,

1716
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:28,040
Speaker 1: demanded by like in the sort of new class of

1717
01:40:28,040 --> 01:40:30,240
Speaker 1: intellectual so evercing market reforms to the extent that they like,

1718
01:40:30,280 --> 01:40:33,640
Speaker 1: they actually believe in this right. They believe in a

1719
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:36,760
Speaker 1: very narrow conception of political democracy. And you know this

1720
01:40:36,920 --> 01:40:39,639
Speaker 1: this democracy is sort of political democracy operates the level

1721
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:41,880
Speaker 1: of the state. Right, It's based on free citizens who

1722
01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:45,000
Speaker 1: are equal before the law, participating in elections. The chief representatives,

1723
01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:48,240
Speaker 1: you like, past laws and you know, oversee and manages

1724
01:40:48,280 --> 01:40:53,240
Speaker 1: state bureaucracy. But you know that this model of political democracy,

1725
01:40:53,280 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 1: which is this is the one that we live under, right,

1726
01:40:55,920 --> 01:41:01,360
Speaker 1: It really gets the workplace to a a separate economic

1727
01:41:01,400 --> 01:41:05,160
Speaker 1: sphere into which democracy doesn't extend. The capitalist firm or

1728
01:41:05,200 --> 01:41:08,599
Speaker 1: its state owned equivalent remains the absolute dictatorship of capitalists

1729
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 1: and the banagerial flunkeys, and even even the sort of

1730
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:14,559
Speaker 1: progressive wings of the pro democracy movement in like Taiwuana,

1731
01:41:14,600 --> 01:41:17,920
Speaker 1: South Korea, like maintain this private, this private dictatorships. You know,

1732
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:20,080
Speaker 1: if if, if, if you're a worker in one of

1733
01:41:20,120 --> 01:41:22,880
Speaker 1: these states, right, you get rights, you get you know,

1734
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:24,639
Speaker 1: you get the ability to form unions, you get access

1735
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:26,599
Speaker 1: to the welfare state, you get these sort of limited

1736
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:29,439
Speaker 1: protections from the worst like physical and psychological abuses that

1737
01:41:29,520 --> 01:41:33,280
Speaker 1: your bosses can inflict. But no, no matter how progressive

1738
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:39,120
Speaker 1: the pro democracy movements actually are the legitimate Jesus sorry,

1739
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:43,960
Speaker 1: the legitimacy of the dictatorship of the bosses, which was

1740
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:46,400
Speaker 1: not up for dispute, you know, to to to to

1741
01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:49,720
Speaker 1: these sort of protmocracy movements, right, like democracy means a

1742
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:54,280
Speaker 1: democratic state and not a democratic workplace. And this is

1743
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:59,320
Speaker 1: this is the huge divide between what's happening at Tianeman

1744
01:41:59,400 --> 01:42:03,560
Speaker 1: and what's happening like everywhere else in the world. The

1745
01:42:03,640 --> 01:42:07,000
Speaker 1: workers a Tienemen are the only people left in this

1746
01:42:07,360 --> 01:42:12,479
Speaker 1: entire sort of like run of protmocracy movements that disagree.

1747
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:15,720
Speaker 1: They are standing against not only that like every there's

1748
01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:18,760
Speaker 1: stending not only against their own governments against a lot

1749
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:21,240
Speaker 1: of the students who are who are also like at

1750
01:42:21,240 --> 01:42:24,800
Speaker 1: these protests, they are standing against literally the entire type

1751
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:28,120
Speaker 1: of history itself bye bye bye, you know, by by

1752
01:42:28,160 --> 01:42:31,360
Speaker 1: applying the principles of the protomocracy movements like their own concerns, right,

1753
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:35,680
Speaker 1: which is skyrocketing inflation, mounting debts like rampant corruption to

1754
01:42:35,720 --> 01:42:39,599
Speaker 1: government officials like spy, rocketing and spiraling inequality and petty

1755
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:44,840
Speaker 1: bureaucratic oppression. Beijing's working class had reinvented a old and

1756
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:48,000
Speaker 1: now like largely forgotten tradition of democracy and the factory

1757
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:50,839
Speaker 1: that I'm gonna I'm calling it democratic worker self management

1758
01:42:50,840 --> 01:42:52,599
Speaker 1: because there's no good name for it, and they're all

1759
01:42:52,640 --> 01:42:58,280
Speaker 1: kind of clunky. Fair. I mean, this is based on

1760
01:42:58,360 --> 01:42:59,920
Speaker 1: who these people were at the tide of the because

1761
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:02,280
Speaker 1: said all of their names for things were pretty clinky. Yeah. Well,

1762
01:43:02,320 --> 01:43:04,479
Speaker 1: the thing is that they don't name like like this.

1763
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:07,240
Speaker 1: And this is one of the things about Okay. One

1764
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:10,200
Speaker 1: of the real problems with studying chairman, right, is that like, Okay,

1765
01:43:10,520 --> 01:43:13,519
Speaker 1: so we have really good accounts from the students, right,

1766
01:43:13,560 --> 01:43:15,519
Speaker 1: because some of the students flee and they're able to

1767
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:18,640
Speaker 1: make it out. We have like jack shit basically from

1768
01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: the workers we have. But what we do have is

1769
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:23,360
Speaker 1: we have some of the we have some of the

1770
01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:25,400
Speaker 1: documents they produced, and we have a lot of interviews

1771
01:43:25,439 --> 01:43:31,880
Speaker 1: that we're done with with people there, and they I

1772
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:36,320
Speaker 1: don't know that they have very very idiosyncratic ways of

1773
01:43:36,439 --> 01:43:39,200
Speaker 1: expressing what they believe, and so you know, you'll get

1774
01:43:39,240 --> 01:43:40,880
Speaker 1: things where like Okay, they're like, okay, wait, we we

1775
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 1: believe in the rule of law, right, and then the

1776
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:45,600
Speaker 1: next sentence will be like, uh, we we we have

1777
01:43:45,680 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 1: calculated the exact amount of surplus value that has been

1778
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:50,400
Speaker 1: distracted from us according to marks. And it's like what

1779
01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:54,600
Speaker 1: because Yeah, the thing that they're doing is like that

1780
01:43:54,720 --> 01:43:57,960
Speaker 1: they're they're they're synchronizing this new they're synchronizing sort of

1781
01:43:58,040 --> 01:44:04,000
Speaker 1: like a political tendency that's trying to address the sort

1782
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:05,800
Speaker 1: of duel to Kadiships are dealing with right like there,

1783
01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:07,519
Speaker 1: because they're they're dealing at the same time with like

1784
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:10,479
Speaker 1: this political to Katishi at the party has and also

1785
01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:13,280
Speaker 1: the fact that their bosses now like completely control everything

1786
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:19,080
Speaker 1: that they do. And because of this, they you know,

1787
01:44:19,240 --> 01:44:23,600
Speaker 1: they they wind up being like the last or I

1788
01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:26,120
Speaker 1: guess technically second to last because Argentina happens, although that

1789
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:29,479
Speaker 1: that's sort of convoluted method itself. But they're they're in

1790
01:44:29,720 --> 01:44:32,920
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, like they are the last people who

1791
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:36,720
Speaker 1: are fighting for democracy in the factory. And this, like

1792
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:38,800
Speaker 1: to a large state, is what Tiannem is actually about.

1793
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:41,439
Speaker 1: It's it's the culmination of a century and a half

1794
01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:44,719
Speaker 1: long war between the democratic wing of the classical workers

1795
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:48,479
Speaker 1: upment and like every single other ideology that exists, and

1796
01:44:48,760 --> 01:44:51,360
Speaker 1: these guys over over that century and a half long span,

1797
01:44:51,360 --> 01:44:53,320
Speaker 1: they're going to fight communists, are going to fight capitalistic,

1798
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:55,759
Speaker 1: going to fight liberals and fascists and monarchies and republics

1799
01:44:55,760 --> 01:45:00,200
Speaker 1: and social democracies and theocracies, and at Tieneman are going

1800
01:45:00,240 --> 01:45:04,240
Speaker 1: to lose one more time. And that defeat, the fact

1801
01:45:04,280 --> 01:45:06,400
Speaker 1: that they lose here, the fact that these people get slaughtered,

1802
01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:09,400
Speaker 1: the fact that like their crushed so effectively that no

1803
01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:11,200
Speaker 1: one even remembers what they were, don't even remembers they

1804
01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:13,800
Speaker 1: exist or like much less like what they were fighting for.

1805
01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 1: This defeat is the origin of the modern world. That

1806
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:20,479
Speaker 1: one man ruling the factory, like the the individual single

1807
01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 1: boss who has total control and power over you, is

1808
01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:26,200
Speaker 1: in in its sort of thousand forms is the author

1809
01:45:26,240 --> 01:45:29,080
Speaker 1: of the hell that is twenty one century. And when

1810
01:45:29,160 --> 01:45:31,920
Speaker 1: we come back from this commercial break, we are going

1811
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:33,960
Speaker 1: to look at the international part of the struggle that

1812
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:38,519
Speaker 1: Chanaman is sort of like the conclusion of. So here's

1813
01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:43,040
Speaker 1: some ads. Maybe here the job working at their distribution

1814
01:45:43,080 --> 01:45:49,040
Speaker 1: center paying gig, and we're back to look at why

1815
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:53,720
Speaker 1: you two also must live in the the the absolutely

1816
01:45:53,880 --> 01:45:58,560
Speaker 1: one man dictatorship in the factory. So it's it's not

1817
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:01,200
Speaker 1: not not not not as much on man, it's the

1818
01:46:01,280 --> 01:46:03,320
Speaker 1: one algorithm you have to you have to listen to

1819
01:46:03,400 --> 01:46:05,479
Speaker 1: what your iPad tells you when you're walking through the

1820
01:46:05,520 --> 01:46:11,080
Speaker 1: Amazon distribution center. That's true. Yeah, they have. It is

1821
01:46:11,080 --> 01:46:14,280
Speaker 1: funny because it's like they've somehow made a worse version

1822
01:46:14,360 --> 01:46:16,439
Speaker 1: of it. It was like okay, yeah, it's like it's

1823
01:46:16,439 --> 01:46:18,599
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's like okay, now, now now you were

1824
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 1: ruled by a computer whose whose job it is to

1825
01:46:21,280 --> 01:46:23,920
Speaker 1: make one person an extremely large amount of money. It's

1826
01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:29,639
Speaker 1: even for further like depersonalized and further disjointed from actually

1827
01:46:29,720 --> 01:46:34,400
Speaker 1: being a human. Yeah, it's it's I don't know that

1828
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:37,880
Speaker 1: there's there's there's some metaphor here which if I wasn't

1829
01:46:38,000 --> 01:46:42,760
Speaker 1: like sick out of my mind about how like power depersonalizes,

1830
01:46:42,800 --> 01:46:45,160
Speaker 1: the dehumanizes you until the point where you replaced with

1831
01:46:45,200 --> 01:46:48,360
Speaker 1: the machine that you can make here. But I I

1832
01:46:48,400 --> 01:46:51,600
Speaker 1: don't know one in one in every two days the

1833
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:54,720
Speaker 1: room or randomly starts binding on me. So yeah, I

1834
01:46:55,080 --> 01:47:00,160
Speaker 1: can't actually't do that. The lesson here, The lesson here

1835
01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:03,599
Speaker 1: is is that when you're thinking about factories and how

1836
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:06,600
Speaker 1: bosses suck and how it's not great to work at

1837
01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:08,360
Speaker 1: a factory, just have a boss that tells you what

1838
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:10,439
Speaker 1: to do. The lesson is that it can always get

1839
01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:16,240
Speaker 1: worse because it could always be a computer. Yeah, anyway, continue,

1840
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:19,280
Speaker 1: So okay, So to get a sense of like what

1841
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:24,280
Speaker 1: this fight is and like how how we got to Tiana, men,

1842
01:47:25,080 --> 01:47:27,080
Speaker 1: we need to go back to the Revolutions of eight,

1843
01:47:28,200 --> 01:47:33,559
Speaker 1: which is at first glance not like not an incredibly

1844
01:47:33,600 --> 01:47:36,960
Speaker 1: obvious place to start. Um. Okay, if if you want

1845
01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:39,680
Speaker 1: like a really detailed, like blow for blow account of

1846
01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 1: the Revolutions of eight, go listen to the Revolutions podcast.

1847
01:47:43,640 --> 01:47:46,479
Speaker 1: It it's good. I am not gonna do it here

1848
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:49,920
Speaker 1: because oh my god, there's so much stuff. But the

1849
01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:54,680
Speaker 1: very short version is that so in Atean forty eight.

1850
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:57,040
Speaker 1: Across Europe, there's a bunch of revolutions that are collectively

1851
01:47:57,120 --> 01:47:59,040
Speaker 1: known while sometimes known as like the Springtime of the

1852
01:47:59,080 --> 01:48:03,479
Speaker 1: People's and this is this is the first revolence. This

1853
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:06,240
Speaker 1: is the first wave revolutions where socialists are like a

1854
01:48:06,360 --> 01:48:10,280
Speaker 1: real thing. Um like Frederick angles, like if that angles

1855
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:12,479
Speaker 1: like the marks and angles Angles is like on a

1856
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:17,679
Speaker 1: barricade with a rifle. Fighting in Prussia, there's like, yeah,

1857
01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:20,680
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sadly, I can't get into Augusva willage here,

1858
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:23,799
Speaker 1: but like go go, go go google Augustva Village's he's wild.

1859
01:48:24,160 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 1: There's a huge revolution in France where they like that

1860
01:48:26,479 --> 01:48:30,400
Speaker 1: they finally deposed the king and you know this, there's

1861
01:48:30,439 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 1: this question here and as these revolutions look like they're winning,

1862
01:48:35,360 --> 01:48:37,640
Speaker 1: there's this question of how far democracy is going to

1863
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:40,280
Speaker 1: go and what it's going to mean? Um, and yeah,

1864
01:48:40,479 --> 01:48:42,960
Speaker 1: you have a large thing you have in this This

1865
01:48:43,120 --> 01:48:44,920
Speaker 1: is in a lot of voice, very similar to what

1866
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:47,479
Speaker 1: you're dealing with with in in China. In the nine

1867
01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:50,439
Speaker 1: Inside of France, you have to split, right, you have

1868
01:48:50,520 --> 01:48:53,559
Speaker 1: the split between you know, like the people who are

1869
01:48:53,600 --> 01:48:55,559
Speaker 1: like who are like French radicals, but in the sense

1870
01:48:55,640 --> 01:48:59,120
Speaker 1: of like the original French Revolution, who are you know, Okay,

1871
01:48:59,160 --> 01:49:03,800
Speaker 1: they want like they want an elected democracy. They absolutely

1872
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:07,400
Speaker 1: do not want to like deal with the fact that

1873
01:49:07,560 --> 01:49:10,640
Speaker 1: that the workplace is not a democracy. And then you know,

1874
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:12,160
Speaker 1: and you have you have a bunch of socialists, and

1875
01:49:12,160 --> 01:49:15,639
Speaker 1: the socialists are like, hey, can we do something about

1876
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:18,000
Speaker 1: like property relations and like the fact that there's a

1877
01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:22,200
Speaker 1: bunch of poor people with no jobs, and you know,

1878
01:49:22,280 --> 01:49:27,040
Speaker 1: and the socialists gets slaughtered, but you know, they don't die.

1879
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:35,800
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, you just said they Okay, so a

1880
01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:38,000
Speaker 1: lot of these people get horribly slaughtered, but a lot

1881
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:43,280
Speaker 1: of them escape and like and and a lot of

1882
01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:44,640
Speaker 1: the lead well, I mean there's an interesting story here,

1883
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:46,280
Speaker 1: Like a lot of the leaders like live on. A

1884
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:48,920
Speaker 1: lot of these people, like, for example, a bunch of

1885
01:49:48,960 --> 01:49:50,760
Speaker 1: people flee to the US and they wind up being

1886
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:52,720
Speaker 1: like the like a lot of the officer core of

1887
01:49:52,760 --> 01:49:54,639
Speaker 1: the Union Army and in the Civil War is made

1888
01:49:54,680 --> 01:49:56,560
Speaker 1: up by these by these socialists who like had to

1889
01:49:56,600 --> 01:49:59,519
Speaker 1: flee after the revolutions failed and like Prussia and stuff.

1890
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:05,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, so but many of them do in fact

1891
01:50:05,560 --> 01:50:08,760
Speaker 1: die die. Yeah, it doesn't go great for them. And

1892
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:10,720
Speaker 1: and you know, and you get to see one of

1893
01:50:10,760 --> 01:50:12,680
Speaker 1: the other things that's going to happen a lot, which

1894
01:50:12,760 --> 01:50:16,040
Speaker 1: is that. Okay, so like the the sort of like

1895
01:50:16,120 --> 01:50:20,519
Speaker 1: the French like like the French radicals who are like

1896
01:50:20,680 --> 01:50:23,760
Speaker 1: pro capitalism but also pro democracy, like allied with the

1897
01:50:23,760 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 1: conservative factions. And then they also all get killed when Napoleon,

1898
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:31,160
Speaker 1: Napoleon the Third takes power. But man, it's it's really

1899
01:50:31,200 --> 01:50:33,599
Speaker 1: it's really it's really hard to root for someone here

1900
01:50:33,680 --> 01:50:36,519
Speaker 1: and that yeah, I know, it's those it's like and

1901
01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:39,920
Speaker 1: then this is really like like the revolution produces his

1902
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:42,160
Speaker 1: own grave diggers ship, Like, oh, hey, what did you

1903
01:50:42,280 --> 01:50:44,560
Speaker 1: expect was going to happen when you allied with like

1904
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:50,840
Speaker 1: the Landlord's end I Napoleon English, this good thing, this

1905
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:56,679
Speaker 1: mistake will never made again. No good good thing. Yeah yeah,

1906
01:50:58,439 --> 01:51:03,519
Speaker 1: pay no mind to the rest of the episode anyway. Continue. So, yeah,

1907
01:51:03,640 --> 01:51:06,160
Speaker 1: you have the split between people who want electoral democracy

1908
01:51:06,200 --> 01:51:09,000
Speaker 1: but you know, doctorships in the workplace and these people

1909
01:51:09,040 --> 01:51:12,320
Speaker 1: who want like democracy in the workplace. And this also

1910
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:15,720
Speaker 1: prefigures to split inside of socialism itself, um for for

1911
01:51:15,800 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, for for for the and this isn't even

1912
01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:21,479
Speaker 1: I I like in my script, I say, like for

1913
01:51:21,720 --> 01:51:24,840
Speaker 1: for for the most radical factions of socialism, you know,

1914
01:51:24,960 --> 01:51:26,800
Speaker 1: like in control over the means of production, which is

1915
01:51:26,840 --> 01:51:29,679
Speaker 1: like the thing that you want. Means that like production

1916
01:51:29,760 --> 01:51:32,200
Speaker 1: is controlled either by like free associations and workers like

1917
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:36,000
Speaker 1: you know, direct democratic unions. This is later called syndicalism

1918
01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:39,000
Speaker 1: or like workers councils, and that that's you know, I say,

1919
01:51:39,040 --> 01:51:40,599
Speaker 1: it's the most radical faction like that. That's a very

1920
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:42,880
Speaker 1: popular conception of like what this is going to be.

1921
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:46,000
Speaker 1: Like if you read marks like Mars is like, oh yeah,

1922
01:51:46,040 --> 01:51:49,559
Speaker 1: free associations a workers. Sure. But you know, as as

1923
01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:51,639
Speaker 1: the sort of like eighteen footies roll into the eighteen

1924
01:51:51,640 --> 01:51:54,439
Speaker 1: sixties and the eighteen seventies, there's this faction of the

1925
01:51:54,560 --> 01:51:58,080
Speaker 1: movement that becomes just like obsessed with with the bureaucratic

1926
01:51:58,160 --> 01:52:01,080
Speaker 1: technologies of the states, and you know, like they they

1927
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:05,160
Speaker 1: they they watch the state really get involved in the

1928
01:52:05,240 --> 01:52:07,719
Speaker 1: economy in a way that it like kind of hasn't before.

1929
01:52:08,520 --> 01:52:11,360
Speaker 1: Then they they over the course of sort of industrialization,

1930
01:52:11,439 --> 01:52:14,080
Speaker 1: they watch with like incredible envy as they see like

1931
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:17,559
Speaker 1: these incredibly elaborate like planning schemes. They see the state

1932
01:52:17,600 --> 01:52:20,400
Speaker 1: building roads and canals and railroads and then entire cities

1933
01:52:20,479 --> 01:52:23,000
Speaker 1: with these like complex electrical grids and like gas lions

1934
01:52:23,040 --> 01:52:28,280
Speaker 1: and plumbing systems, and especially trains, like specifically trains. This

1935
01:52:28,439 --> 01:52:32,200
Speaker 1: drives them all completely insane, and they become they begin

1936
01:52:32,280 --> 01:52:36,000
Speaker 1: to believe that like a single centralized planning body, like

1937
01:52:36,080 --> 01:52:38,639
Speaker 1: non amercrat association of workers, like a single centralized state

1938
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:41,240
Speaker 1: planning body can like you know, bring about the long

1939
01:52:41,320 --> 01:52:45,479
Speaker 1: saw after like cooperative commonwealth of socialism, and all all

1940
01:52:45,520 --> 01:52:47,560
Speaker 1: these people get they get obsessed with like such a

1941
01:52:47,640 --> 01:52:50,800
Speaker 1: planning right, and this becomes this starts to sort of

1942
01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:54,759
Speaker 1: like consume more and more of the left um in Germany,

1943
01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:57,160
Speaker 1: which is home to like the powerful German Social Democratic Party,

1944
01:52:57,600 --> 01:52:59,720
Speaker 1: which is like probably the most powerful socialist part in

1945
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:02,200
Speaker 1: the world. This point, the socialists become divided into two camps.

1946
01:53:02,240 --> 01:53:05,160
Speaker 1: There there's the revisionists led by Edward Bernstein, who like

1947
01:53:05,600 --> 01:53:09,120
Speaker 1: he like renounces Marxism and revolution and like entirely in

1948
01:53:09,200 --> 01:53:11,679
Speaker 1: favor of performing capitalism in the state from like within.

1949
01:53:12,479 --> 01:53:14,200
Speaker 1: And then you know, you have these orthodox Marxists that

1950
01:53:14,240 --> 01:53:16,880
Speaker 1: are like led by Kola Kotski, whose whole thing is

1951
01:53:16,880 --> 01:53:19,640
Speaker 1: that he hates Bernstein and like the only thing that

1952
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:21,960
Speaker 1: these two people, that these two groups agree on is that,

1953
01:53:22,240 --> 01:53:25,360
Speaker 1: I the only thing they agree on is the bureaucratic

1954
01:53:25,439 --> 01:53:27,320
Speaker 1: state planning is the thing you're supposed to be fighting

1955
01:53:27,360 --> 01:53:30,840
Speaker 1: for and not like democratic workplaces. And this leads the

1956
01:53:30,960 --> 01:53:34,960
Speaker 1: STP to like they they do a lot of things

1957
01:53:35,080 --> 01:53:37,760
Speaker 1: that are like disastrous. Um, one of the things that

1958
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:40,559
Speaker 1: they wind up doing a lot is like actively working

1959
01:53:40,600 --> 01:53:43,320
Speaker 1: with the bosses to like destroy the like workplace autonomy

1960
01:53:43,360 --> 01:53:45,920
Speaker 1: for their own unions. So like they'll there'll be things

1961
01:53:45,920 --> 01:53:48,160
Speaker 1: where it's like like there's like there's a famous examples,

1962
01:53:48,160 --> 01:53:49,280
Speaker 1: Like there's like a like a I think they're like

1963
01:53:49,320 --> 01:53:50,840
Speaker 1: an they're on beta workers and I think they make

1964
01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:53,559
Speaker 1: knives or something. And they have a lot of control

1965
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:56,360
Speaker 1: of the production process, right, they can control like how

1966
01:53:56,479 --> 01:53:58,719
Speaker 1: much life gets produced the process like how it works,

1967
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:01,120
Speaker 1: like what they're actually doing. And the STP is like, no,

1968
01:54:01,479 --> 01:54:03,519
Speaker 1: this is bad because it's inefficient, and so they like

1969
01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:08,280
Speaker 1: basically crush their own union and this this goes in

1970
01:54:08,360 --> 01:54:12,800
Speaker 1: really disastrous directions. But we're still the single person who

1971
01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:15,479
Speaker 1: becomes like the most obsessed with like the potential of

1972
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:20,120
Speaker 1: bureautic state planning is uh one, very very very obscure

1973
01:54:20,160 --> 01:54:25,160
Speaker 1: guy named Vladimir Elias Lenin, who I don't expect anyone

1974
01:54:25,200 --> 01:54:29,880
Speaker 1: to have heard of front of the Pod. I just

1975
01:54:29,960 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 1: had len Oh, that's funny. Yeah. So, as David Gravord

1976
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:39,560
Speaker 1: points out, Lennon's obsession with like the German postal Service

1977
01:54:40,280 --> 01:54:43,000
Speaker 1: is such that like, okay, so he writes a very

1978
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:44,960
Speaker 1: famous book about like what a future social state is

1979
01:54:45,000 --> 01:54:46,839
Speaker 1: going to be, called State and Revolution, and like almost

1980
01:54:46,880 --> 01:54:48,720
Speaker 1: all of it is a lie. But he also says

1981
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:52,640
Speaker 1: this in it Um. A witty German social democrat of

1982
01:54:52,720 --> 01:54:56,760
Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies called the postal service an example of

1983
01:54:56,840 --> 01:54:59,920
Speaker 1: the socialist economic system. This is very true. At present.

1984
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:02,800
Speaker 1: The postal service is a business organized along the lines

1985
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:05,600
Speaker 1: of a state capitalist monopoly. Bab the imperially, this is

1986
01:55:05,640 --> 01:55:07,960
Speaker 1: the whole thing about imperialism is making everything off of this.

1987
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:14,160
Speaker 1: But so to organize the whole national economy on the

1988
01:55:14,240 --> 01:55:17,160
Speaker 1: lines of the postal service, so that the technicians, foreim

1989
01:55:17,240 --> 01:55:19,600
Speaker 1: and bookkeepers, as well as all officials that received no

1990
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:23,960
Speaker 1: salaries higher than a workman's wage, all under the control

1991
01:55:24,040 --> 01:55:26,680
Speaker 1: and leadership of the armed proletariat. This is our immediate aim.

1992
01:55:27,480 --> 01:55:29,280
Speaker 1: And if you think about what this means for about

1993
01:55:29,280 --> 01:55:33,320
Speaker 1: five seconds, right, what he's saying is that socialism is

1994
01:55:33,680 --> 01:55:40,560
Speaker 1: the entire economy being planned by a bureacratic state. And

1995
01:55:41,640 --> 01:55:45,960
Speaker 1: you know this this like this sits off this like

1996
01:55:46,080 --> 01:55:48,320
Speaker 1: massive series of confrontations with the part of the workers

1997
01:55:48,360 --> 01:55:51,600
Speaker 1: movement who you know, like what to control the work

1998
01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:55,320
Speaker 1: that they do, and you know, like like make I'm

1999
01:55:55,320 --> 01:55:57,280
Speaker 1: like you know that the people who like who think

2000
01:55:57,400 --> 01:55:59,200
Speaker 1: that like the revolution means that they're actually going to

2001
01:55:59,240 --> 01:56:00,840
Speaker 1: be able to make decision over their work and not

2002
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, just like work for like a slightly different

2003
01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:07,440
Speaker 1: set of bureaucrats. And this struggle between you know this

2004
01:56:07,600 --> 01:56:10,480
Speaker 1: the sort of like new socialist bureaucrats and like democracy

2005
01:56:10,520 --> 01:56:14,040
Speaker 1: and the workers movement is you know, it's it's it's

2006
01:56:14,040 --> 01:56:15,560
Speaker 1: an enormous part of the struggle that happens here. And

2007
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:18,840
Speaker 1: there's there's like another version of it happening between the

2008
01:56:18,880 --> 01:56:21,680
Speaker 1: workers movement itself and the capitalist state like in the

2009
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:25,520
Speaker 1: eighteen eighties, um, the workers movements in like in Italy

2010
01:56:25,720 --> 01:56:29,920
Speaker 1: and Germany and like Frances that's the extent that they have.

2011
01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:32,800
Speaker 1: These they form these parties that are called like states

2012
01:56:32,840 --> 01:56:35,920
Speaker 1: within a state, and you know, these things are these

2013
01:56:36,040 --> 01:56:38,760
Speaker 1: massive networks of these workers institutions. They have like free schools,

2014
01:56:38,840 --> 01:56:41,640
Speaker 1: they have workers associations, they have like friendly societies, they

2015
01:56:41,680 --> 01:56:44,160
Speaker 1: have libraries, they have theaters, they have like unions, have

2016
01:56:44,280 --> 01:56:47,200
Speaker 1: co ops, they have like neighborhood associations, they have tenant unions,

2017
01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:51,160
Speaker 1: initial aids societies, and you know, and these things are

2018
01:56:51,240 --> 01:56:54,880
Speaker 1: all run democratically by like by by the workers who

2019
01:56:54,960 --> 01:56:58,200
Speaker 1: formed the associations, and you know, and like the people

2020
01:56:58,200 --> 01:57:01,320
Speaker 1: who are doing this are like you know, the hope

2021
01:57:01,400 --> 01:57:02,640
Speaker 1: is that like this is going to be the basis

2022
01:57:02,640 --> 01:57:04,440
Speaker 1: for the new social society. Right, It's like, okay, we

2023
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:06,680
Speaker 1: we can just come together and like do this stuff.

2024
01:57:07,320 --> 01:57:09,000
Speaker 1: We can do it democratically, and we can administer this

2025
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:15,560
Speaker 1: stuff ourselves and the and these things are enormously popular. Um,

2026
01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:19,120
Speaker 1: and you know, and this like terrifies the sort of

2027
01:57:19,160 --> 01:57:21,960
Speaker 1: old ruling class. Um. And Otto von Bismarck, who's the

2028
01:57:22,040 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 1: guy basically running the German state in this period, like

2029
01:57:26,240 --> 01:57:28,760
Speaker 1: his solution to this is to create like bureaucratic state

2030
01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:31,000
Speaker 1: run versions of like all of these things. So he

2031
01:57:31,360 --> 01:57:34,240
Speaker 1: creates like state run library, state run theaters, like state

2032
01:57:34,360 --> 01:57:37,600
Speaker 1: run welfare services, and he's using these as as like

2033
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:40,000
Speaker 1: a replacement to the sort of workers institutions. And he

2034
01:57:40,280 --> 01:57:42,920
Speaker 1: has this great line where he tells an American observer quote,

2035
01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:47,000
Speaker 1: my idea was to bribe the working classes, or shall

2036
01:57:47,080 --> 01:57:49,200
Speaker 1: I say, to win them over, to regard the state

2037
01:57:49,240 --> 01:57:51,880
Speaker 1: as a social institution existing for their own sake and

2038
01:57:52,000 --> 01:57:56,760
Speaker 1: invested in and interested in their welfare. And like this works.

2039
01:57:56,800 --> 01:57:58,320
Speaker 1: This is this is an enormous success. This is one

2040
01:57:58,320 --> 01:58:02,080
Speaker 1: of the greatest propagandic ures ever because like it's it's

2041
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 1: so successful in convincing people that the thing that they're

2042
01:58:04,560 --> 01:58:06,720
Speaker 1: fighting for is like the state bureacratic version of this thing,

2043
01:58:06,800 --> 01:58:09,120
Speaker 1: and not the version where they do it themselves. That

2044
01:58:09,280 --> 01:58:13,920
Speaker 1: like when when the socialists like take power, they confuse Bismarcks,

2045
01:58:14,000 --> 01:58:16,680
Speaker 1: like literally the welfare state bribe thing that he liked

2046
01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:18,720
Speaker 1: made to buy off the movements, Like they confused that

2047
01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:22,280
Speaker 1: with socialism itself. And like to this day everyone believes this.

2048
01:58:22,480 --> 01:58:26,400
Speaker 1: It's like it's it's I don't know, I lose my

2049
01:58:26,480 --> 01:58:29,880
Speaker 1: mind constantly over this because all of these things that

2050
01:58:29,960 --> 01:58:33,040
Speaker 1: bisinbarg developed like specifically to destroy the socialist movement. Everyone

2051
01:58:33,120 --> 01:58:36,240
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, this is socialism. It's like no, no,

2052
01:58:36,680 --> 01:58:42,160
Speaker 1: please stop. And you know, and this is really effective,

2053
01:58:42,400 --> 01:58:44,840
Speaker 1: particularly on the leadership of the movement. But like the

2054
01:58:44,920 --> 01:58:48,960
Speaker 1: actual like people in these parties, like in these movements,

2055
01:58:49,200 --> 01:58:51,200
Speaker 1: don't forget it. And and as as the sort of

2056
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:53,240
Speaker 1: like twenty cent drawstore closed and you get like the

2057
01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:55,800
Speaker 1: so as as the nineteenth century draws too closed, and

2058
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:58,760
Speaker 1: you get like the twentieth century. The workers who are

2059
01:58:58,840 --> 01:59:03,560
Speaker 1: like doing the uprisings are are not sort of like

2060
01:59:03,760 --> 01:59:07,160
Speaker 1: like the you know, the workers who are doing the

2061
01:59:07,240 --> 01:59:10,000
Speaker 1: uprisings haven't like drinking the kool aid. And the thing

2062
01:59:10,080 --> 01:59:12,080
Speaker 1: that they do immediately when they start doing uprisings is

2063
01:59:12,160 --> 01:59:15,600
Speaker 1: they start building these democratic institutions, but particularly workers councils

2064
01:59:16,360 --> 01:59:18,200
Speaker 1: um the most famous of these are like other workers

2065
01:59:18,280 --> 01:59:21,280
Speaker 1: councils that form sort of spontaneously in the Russian revolutions

2066
01:59:21,280 --> 01:59:24,880
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventeen. These are like this is actually like

2067
01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:27,240
Speaker 1: this is what like the they're called soviets because soviet

2068
01:59:27,360 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 1: is just like the word for council in Russian. And

2069
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:33,520
Speaker 1: these things are originally these like ad hoc strike committees,

2070
01:59:33,600 --> 01:59:35,960
Speaker 1: and then they eventually become these like formalized elect like

2071
01:59:36,120 --> 01:59:38,800
Speaker 1: elected bodies of representatives from like the various factories who

2072
01:59:38,800 --> 01:59:41,160
Speaker 1: are like coordinating a strike and okay, so not you know,

2073
01:59:41,240 --> 01:59:46,520
Speaker 1: five they lose and they all die, but inteventeen, uh,

2074
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:49,640
Speaker 1: they do this again and they form the Soviets again,

2075
01:59:49,680 --> 01:59:53,400
Speaker 1: and this time the councils start to take like a

2076
01:59:53,520 --> 01:59:57,440
Speaker 1: larger role in coordinating production directly and you know, coordinating

2077
01:59:57,440 --> 02:00:00,840
Speaker 1: between different factories and industries, and they they turn into

2078
02:00:00,840 --> 02:00:03,200
Speaker 1: this sort of like counterpower thing to the new government.

2079
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:07,280
Speaker 1: And this kicks off this open period of warfare that

2080
02:00:07,320 --> 02:00:11,760
Speaker 1: stretches like literally from Italy to Argentina between the different

2081
02:00:11,800 --> 02:00:14,640
Speaker 1: socialist factions who like people like the different factions of

2082
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:17,760
Speaker 1: this movement who want democracy in the factory. And this

2083
02:00:18,080 --> 02:00:20,920
Speaker 1: like a lot newly formed like anti democratic alliance of

2084
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:24,680
Speaker 1: like social Democrats, Bolsheviks and capitalists who like you know,

2085
02:00:25,000 --> 02:00:27,240
Speaker 1: are like okay, well some of them are in favor

2086
02:00:27,280 --> 02:00:29,520
Speaker 1: of like you can have Okay, there's a whole range

2087
02:00:29,560 --> 02:00:32,160
Speaker 1: of this thing, right, Like. The thing that unites all

2088
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:34,960
Speaker 1: of these movements, the social Democrats, that Bolsheviks, the capitalists

2089
02:00:34,960 --> 02:00:38,560
Speaker 1: and later the fascist is that they like emphatically like

2090
02:00:38,800 --> 02:00:41,880
Speaker 1: do not want democracy in the factory, and they're willing

2091
02:00:41,920 --> 02:00:44,000
Speaker 1: to put aside their differences to make sure it doesn't happen,

2092
02:00:44,880 --> 02:00:46,960
Speaker 1: but you know, there's still there's still a huge fight

2093
02:00:47,000 --> 02:00:49,760
Speaker 1: that happens to between between nineteen y you get works

2094
02:00:49,880 --> 02:00:53,560
Speaker 1: councils in we get workers councils in Germany, Poland, Austria, Ukraine,

2095
02:00:53,640 --> 02:00:57,760
Speaker 1: Ireland and Ireland. There's there's these like two giant revolts

2096
02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:02,840
Speaker 1: by synthicalist workers unions in Brazilian Argentina, and these all

2097
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:05,280
Speaker 1: get crushed um in Italy. Italy has like one of

2098
02:01:05,320 --> 02:01:08,280
Speaker 1: the most intense conflicts between these like a lot of

2099
02:01:08,320 --> 02:01:10,880
Speaker 1: cynicalis in the Italian state, and they have this this

2100
02:01:10,960 --> 02:01:13,680
Speaker 1: really famous like set of factory occupations where instead of

2101
02:01:13,760 --> 02:01:16,080
Speaker 1: like so like before those people would go on strike, right,

2102
02:01:16,080 --> 02:01:19,280
Speaker 1: you go on strike and you leave your factory. And

2103
02:01:19,520 --> 02:01:21,160
Speaker 1: in Italy they were like, okay, well what if we

2104
02:01:21,280 --> 02:01:22,880
Speaker 1: just stayed in the factory and took it over so

2105
02:01:22,920 --> 02:01:25,240
Speaker 1: that they couldn't like just like a restarted production with scabs,

2106
02:01:25,480 --> 02:01:28,600
Speaker 1: and we now control the factory. And there's this huge

2107
02:01:28,640 --> 02:01:31,240
Speaker 1: wave of it in in Italy in the late nineteen

2108
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:37,600
Speaker 1: writeen like teens and twenties, and you know, it looks

2109
02:01:37,640 --> 02:01:39,760
Speaker 1: like for a little for like a bit like it

2110
02:01:39,960 --> 02:01:41,760
Speaker 1: really looks like they're going to bring down the government,

2111
02:01:42,560 --> 02:01:45,400
Speaker 1: but the factory occupations get crushed. But they don't. They

2112
02:01:45,400 --> 02:01:47,080
Speaker 1: don't get crushed by the government. They get crushed by

2113
02:01:47,080 --> 02:01:49,280
Speaker 1: the Italian Socialist Party and like their union, the General

2114
02:01:49,280 --> 02:01:53,400
Speaker 1: Confederation of Labor, and like this is how fascistm wins

2115
02:01:53,400 --> 02:01:55,000
Speaker 1: in Italy, like to a large extent. It's that like

2116
02:01:55,680 --> 02:01:57,880
Speaker 1: when when like you know, and it happens in Germany too,

2117
02:01:57,920 --> 02:02:00,880
Speaker 1: It's like when and when when the sort of the

2118
02:02:00,920 --> 02:02:04,120
Speaker 1: social democrats and the capitalists are faced with this possibility

2119
02:02:04,200 --> 02:02:07,400
Speaker 1: that like workers could take over the factories, the social

2120
02:02:07,440 --> 02:02:10,640
Speaker 1: Democrats turn on them and just kill them all. And

2121
02:02:10,760 --> 02:02:12,560
Speaker 1: the problem with that is that like okay, well who

2122
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:14,280
Speaker 1: who who who do you do the killing with the

2123
02:02:14,360 --> 02:02:16,800
Speaker 1: answer is the fascists, and then the social Democrats like

2124
02:02:16,880 --> 02:02:20,280
Speaker 1: themselves all get exterminated by the fascist It's it's just

2125
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:22,880
Speaker 1: like you know, it is it is a is A

2126
02:02:23,040 --> 02:02:24,920
Speaker 1: is a terrible cycle that we're going to see like

2127
02:02:26,360 --> 02:02:31,120
Speaker 1: literally over and over and over again. Um yeah it's bad.

2128
02:02:31,280 --> 02:02:36,200
Speaker 1: Um that sounds not great? Yeah yeah, do do do

2129
02:02:36,280 --> 02:02:42,160
Speaker 1: you know who else will slaughter your your factory council? Oh? Oh,

2130
02:02:42,360 --> 02:02:46,600
Speaker 1: I actually know this one. M alright, Carrison, go, we

2131
02:02:46,680 --> 02:02:49,680
Speaker 1: have a few options here. There is are our good

2132
02:02:49,720 --> 02:02:52,360
Speaker 1: friends at the Washington State Patrol. Um, if you're trying

2133
02:02:52,360 --> 02:02:54,280
Speaker 1: to set up a highway business next to the highway

2134
02:02:54,680 --> 02:02:57,520
Speaker 1: and run run video workers, cancel State Patrol come up,

2135
02:02:57,560 --> 02:03:01,520
Speaker 1: be like not on this highway. You're done. Um probably

2136
02:03:01,520 --> 02:03:05,960
Speaker 1: also like Amazon or something, who knows, and we're back

2137
02:03:06,720 --> 02:03:12,080
Speaker 1: to see you know, okay, okay, well we are back

2138
02:03:12,160 --> 02:03:14,440
Speaker 1: to see like the worst defeats that they're going to have,

2139
02:03:14,680 --> 02:03:18,240
Speaker 1: that that like the people who want like a factory

2140
02:03:18,280 --> 02:03:20,360
Speaker 1: council are going to have in this period, which for

2141
02:03:20,600 --> 02:03:22,880
Speaker 1: once actually has nothing to do with Amazon or the

2142
02:03:22,920 --> 02:03:27,560
Speaker 1: capitalists whatsoever, which is that like the worst balling they're

2143
02:03:27,560 --> 02:03:31,080
Speaker 1: gonna get is from Lenin and the Bolsheviks, who I

2144
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:33,600
Speaker 1: don't know how many people sort of like know the

2145
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:36,520
Speaker 1: history of Russian Revolution, but like the factory councils are

2146
02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:39,560
Speaker 1: the people who like basically put the Bolsheviks in power

2147
02:03:39,600 --> 02:03:42,480
Speaker 1: in the first place, like to a large extents, like

2148
02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:44,720
Speaker 1: they're there's a there are the people who like were

2149
02:03:44,800 --> 02:03:47,400
Speaker 1: the shock troops of this and like literally the moment

2150
02:03:47,520 --> 02:03:49,840
Speaker 1: Lendin takes power, she starts under buying the Soviets. Um

2151
02:03:50,280 --> 02:03:54,160
Speaker 1: he publishes this thing like like like three or four

2152
02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:57,120
Speaker 1: days after that trial revolution, he publishes this thing called

2153
02:03:57,120 --> 02:03:59,120
Speaker 1: the draft to cree on workers control, which is like,

2154
02:04:00,080 --> 02:04:02,440
Speaker 1: you know, he he basically is like he's he's trying

2155
02:04:02,480 --> 02:04:05,160
Speaker 1: to like shift power from these councils to the bullshit

2156
02:04:05,280 --> 02:04:08,879
Speaker 1: party in the state. And this doesn't really work initially

2157
02:04:09,040 --> 02:04:14,280
Speaker 1: because these groups are like pretty powerful. But in you know,

2158
02:04:14,360 --> 02:04:18,120
Speaker 1: he publicly Lenin's like, no, we draw drive power from

2159
02:04:18,160 --> 02:04:20,800
Speaker 1: the Soviets, like where where where the people who support

2160
02:04:20,960 --> 02:04:23,240
Speaker 1: these councils, But then like Lennon's, he's like shipping away

2161
02:04:23,280 --> 02:04:26,440
Speaker 1: from them. And then in en he writes this thing.

2162
02:04:26,560 --> 02:04:29,800
Speaker 1: He writes this this this paragraph from the Immediate Task

2163
02:04:29,840 --> 02:04:33,000
Speaker 1: the Soviet Government, which is like one of the wildest

2164
02:04:33,040 --> 02:04:35,880
Speaker 1: things I've ever read in my life. I was just

2165
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:41,520
Speaker 1: saying a lot, it's it's wild, it is She's okay.

2166
02:04:42,080 --> 02:04:46,480
Speaker 1: Unquestioning submission to a single will is absolutely necessary for

2167
02:04:46,520 --> 02:04:48,760
Speaker 1: the success of labor processes that are based on large

2168
02:04:48,800 --> 02:04:52,320
Speaker 1: scale machine industry. Today, the revolution demands and the interests

2169
02:04:52,320 --> 02:04:55,440
Speaker 1: of socialism that the masses, unquestioning lee obey the single

2170
02:04:55,520 --> 02:05:00,080
Speaker 1: will of the leaders of the labor process, which is

2171
02:05:00,200 --> 02:05:06,960
Speaker 1: like what what how how about you explain to our

2172
02:05:07,040 --> 02:05:10,160
Speaker 1: good viewers why that is so bonkers, Like okay, some

2173
02:05:10,280 --> 02:05:11,760
Speaker 1: of them might just hear that and be like, oh

2174
02:05:12,000 --> 02:05:15,200
Speaker 1: leftist words cool, moving on, even just the first two

2175
02:05:15,240 --> 02:05:19,320
Speaker 1: words unquestioning, Yeah, makes me like that, but like a

2176
02:05:19,400 --> 02:05:21,760
Speaker 1: questioning submission. The whole thing about like the masses must

2177
02:05:21,880 --> 02:05:25,440
Speaker 1: unquestionably obey the will of the single leader. Like what

2178
02:05:26,640 --> 02:05:30,520
Speaker 1: this is like, like what is happening? This is you know,

2179
02:05:31,280 --> 02:05:34,040
Speaker 1: and the thing that's happening here is that Lennon. Lennon

2180
02:05:34,240 --> 02:05:38,680
Speaker 1: is being really candid about what it means for there

2181
02:05:38,720 --> 02:05:41,800
Speaker 1: to be a boss, Like what it means for there

2182
02:05:41,840 --> 02:05:44,000
Speaker 1: to be someone who's position is above you that can

2183
02:05:44,120 --> 02:05:46,040
Speaker 1: order you to do literally whatever they want, and if

2184
02:05:46,080 --> 02:05:49,600
Speaker 1: you don't obey them, like bad things happen and you

2185
02:05:49,720 --> 02:05:53,720
Speaker 1: start or get shot. Yeah, she's she's she's incredible candid

2186
02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:55,400
Speaker 1: about this, right like this, this, this, this is what

2187
02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:58,200
Speaker 1: like having a boss means. It means like questioning submission

2188
02:05:58,200 --> 02:06:00,400
Speaker 1: to the single will of the leader. This, which is

2189
02:06:00,480 --> 02:06:02,400
Speaker 1: like this, this is how I talked about Sophie all

2190
02:06:02,440 --> 02:06:08,360
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, well, shaking her head, I'm with you,

2191
02:06:08,440 --> 02:06:14,839
Speaker 1: Sophie campaign scare that Yeah, You're welcome, whatever you say, Sophie.

2192
02:06:15,560 --> 02:06:23,240
Speaker 1: Thanks scare God. I'm thinking about this. There's this line, um,

2193
02:06:24,360 --> 02:06:26,320
Speaker 1: it's sort of sent actually related to the story I

2194
02:06:26,360 --> 02:06:28,320
Speaker 1: read this thing once about so the workers who took

2195
02:06:28,360 --> 02:06:30,840
Speaker 1: over the surban actually think it was the students shore

2196
02:06:30,840 --> 02:06:33,920
Speaker 1: of a bunch of students like take over this uh,

2197
02:06:34,160 --> 02:06:37,280
Speaker 1: like like the like the like the big academy in

2198
02:06:37,560 --> 02:06:41,920
Speaker 1: in Paris, and they send this like I think it's

2199
02:06:41,960 --> 02:06:46,040
Speaker 1: a telegram to like the Chinese embassy, and like the

2200
02:06:46,240 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 1: end of it is I think if I'm remembering the

2201
02:06:49,240 --> 02:06:52,680
Speaker 1: exact words correctly, it's uh, the revolution will not be

2202
02:06:52,760 --> 02:06:55,640
Speaker 1: complete until the revolution will not be complete until the

2203
02:06:55,720 --> 02:06:57,800
Speaker 1: last capitalist is hung with the entrails of the last

2204
02:06:57,840 --> 02:07:06,680
Speaker 1: bureaucrat predibly hot yet was wild. That's that's the thing

2205
02:07:06,760 --> 02:07:09,920
Speaker 1: this brought to mind for some reason. But you know,

2206
02:07:10,680 --> 02:07:12,640
Speaker 1: I mean going back to sort of Lenin and his

2207
02:07:12,680 --> 02:07:15,600
Speaker 1: like unquestioning like submission to the single word, like he's

2208
02:07:15,600 --> 02:07:17,600
Speaker 1: more candid about what like one man rule in the

2209
02:07:17,680 --> 02:07:19,840
Speaker 1: factory or like having a boss you have to obey

2210
02:07:20,280 --> 02:07:23,800
Speaker 1: like means, but the system is describing like isn't different

2211
02:07:24,040 --> 02:07:27,160
Speaker 1: than any other political system, like Bolshevik rule in the

2212
02:07:27,240 --> 02:07:31,040
Speaker 1: factory like isn't really different than capital, social democratic or

2213
02:07:31,080 --> 02:07:34,240
Speaker 1: fascist rule. And you know, the movement for democracy and

2214
02:07:34,280 --> 02:07:37,960
Speaker 1: the factory as you know, as as as these people

2215
02:07:37,960 --> 02:07:40,160
Speaker 1: are crossed, especially in Cross the Nation twenty one, like

2216
02:07:41,280 --> 02:07:43,520
Speaker 1: from for Democracy in the Factory is faced by four

2217
02:07:43,800 --> 02:07:45,960
Speaker 1: implacable enemies who are willing to put aside all those

2218
02:07:45,960 --> 02:07:49,560
Speaker 1: their ideological differences to ensure that like no one ever

2219
02:07:50,480 --> 02:07:53,840
Speaker 1: like gets to control their workplace. And you know, and

2220
02:07:53,920 --> 02:07:55,880
Speaker 1: as as the twenties blend into early nine thirties, like

2221
02:07:55,920 --> 02:07:58,520
Speaker 1: the movement seemed to have disappeared, but they didn't. They

2222
02:07:58,560 --> 02:08:01,360
Speaker 1: absolutely didn't even know even though they got murdered by

2223
02:08:01,360 --> 02:08:05,560
Speaker 1: the fascist, the communist, social democrats and the capitalists, they're

2224
02:08:05,600 --> 02:08:07,800
Speaker 1: gonna be back next episode to do like twelve more

2225
02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:12,240
Speaker 1: revolutions and yeah that that that's that that that that

2226
02:08:12,440 --> 02:08:14,840
Speaker 1: that come come come back tomorrow for us talking about

2227
02:08:14,880 --> 02:08:18,160
Speaker 1: like why these revolutions happens, what the ruling class did

2228
02:08:18,200 --> 02:08:21,120
Speaker 1: to stop them. And then yeah, the lead up to

2229
02:08:21,160 --> 02:08:23,160
Speaker 1: Tianamen Square to see the sort of like the the

2230
02:08:23,200 --> 02:08:27,680
Speaker 1: final standard of Chinese working class and yeah, like get

2231
02:08:27,760 --> 02:08:50,360
Speaker 1: to what Tianeman actually was. What a Cliff Sanker pod cast. Yeah,

2232
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:55,640
Speaker 1: that that counts as an intro. Look, yes, we've we've

2233
02:08:55,720 --> 02:08:57,880
Speaker 1: we've now started the podcast. The podcast that we are

2234
02:08:57,920 --> 02:09:02,080
Speaker 1: starting is it could happen here. And I it's me

2235
02:09:02,160 --> 02:09:05,640
Speaker 1: because for long I'm I'm doing I'm doing the host thing,

2236
02:09:06,440 --> 02:09:08,240
Speaker 1: and I have a bunch of other people with me

2237
02:09:08,320 --> 02:09:12,120
Speaker 1: who do a lot of things. I have Garrison, Yes,

2238
02:09:12,240 --> 02:09:18,760
Speaker 1: I have suren Yes, and I have Sophie, our lovely boss.

2239
02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:26,320
Speaker 1: Sophie lictor bed all phrase on high your words, not mine,

2240
02:09:28,320 --> 02:09:35,800
Speaker 1: so weird. I did not enjoy that at all my takeover.

2241
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:42,440
Speaker 1: So so Sophie unfortunately, fortunately, unfortunately lacks to sheer ruthlessness

2242
02:09:42,560 --> 02:09:46,480
Speaker 1: to crush the workers movement. Well we will see. Yeah

2243
02:09:47,520 --> 02:10:01,360
Speaker 1: that relates to be determined. I don't buy it, so Sophie,

2244
02:10:01,440 --> 02:10:05,760
Speaker 1: Sophie is very sad. I'm sorry, Sophie. Um So, when

2245
02:10:05,760 --> 02:10:09,080
Speaker 1: when we last left off Lennon, Lennon has, like in theory,

2246
02:10:09,280 --> 02:10:11,960
Speaker 1: crushed last sort of remaining factions of like the workers

2247
02:10:12,200 --> 02:10:14,480
Speaker 1: but who want democracy the factories. But unfortunately for the

2248
02:10:14,520 --> 02:10:17,640
Speaker 1: Leninist like literally no many how no matter how many

2249
02:10:17,680 --> 02:10:19,879
Speaker 1: workers they kill, and they are going to kill enormous

2250
02:10:19,960 --> 02:10:22,720
Speaker 1: numbers of workers. The demand for democracy and the factory

2251
02:10:22,800 --> 02:10:25,720
Speaker 1: like just refuses to die. But for over a hundred years,

2252
02:10:25,760 --> 02:10:27,800
Speaker 1: the development of the sort of mass factory system and

2253
02:10:27,880 --> 02:10:30,520
Speaker 1: logistical infrastructure that you need to support it, maybe most

2254
02:10:30,560 --> 02:10:34,200
Speaker 1: importantly coal mines and railroads that use the transport stuff

2255
02:10:34,680 --> 02:10:38,440
Speaker 1: generate this incredibly militant working class that sees you know,

2256
02:10:38,560 --> 02:10:41,280
Speaker 1: democratic control over the workplaces like the fundamental aspect of

2257
02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:45,560
Speaker 1: its liberation. Um. Ideologically, this is you know, this is

2258
02:10:45,640 --> 02:10:48,360
Speaker 1: this is manifested in like a series of interlocking beliefs

2259
02:10:48,520 --> 02:10:50,600
Speaker 1: about like the nature of the working class and like

2260
02:10:50,720 --> 02:10:54,040
Speaker 1: what class society is um, all of which are sort

2261
02:10:54,080 --> 02:10:59,800
Speaker 1: of necessary components of this. Like it becomes this like

2262
02:11:00,000 --> 02:11:03,000
Speaker 1: incredibly like this like instinctive formation of workers council at

2263
02:11:03,040 --> 02:11:06,360
Speaker 1: the moment like an uprising happens. And this is something

2264
02:11:06,400 --> 02:11:08,640
Speaker 1: that that's very interesting about about the twentieth century. Is it,

2265
02:11:08,760 --> 02:11:11,560
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like what when whenever there's like a crisis,

2266
02:11:11,640 --> 02:11:14,640
Speaker 1: someone someone like like everyone in the factory is like, okay,

2267
02:11:14,640 --> 02:11:17,000
Speaker 1: we're we we've taken control of the factory now like

2268
02:11:17,560 --> 02:11:20,360
Speaker 1: we we were forming a council, were forming a giant assembly,

2269
02:11:20,680 --> 02:11:23,200
Speaker 1: and like we don't do this anymore, and we're gonna

2270
02:11:23,200 --> 02:11:24,760
Speaker 1: come back to like why we don't do this anymore?

2271
02:11:24,800 --> 02:11:27,920
Speaker 1: But like this hasn't happened, Like the last time it

2272
02:11:28,000 --> 02:11:30,880
Speaker 1: happened was like in Argentine and two dozen't one and

2273
02:11:31,120 --> 02:11:33,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know if Garrison Garrison might have been

2274
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:40,360
Speaker 1: alive for that, thanks, But like it's well, I will say.

2275
02:11:40,360 --> 02:11:43,440
Speaker 1: The other time it does happen is when after after

2276
02:11:43,560 --> 02:11:46,600
Speaker 1: a recording session, when our boss Sophie leaves me, me

2277
02:11:46,680 --> 02:11:49,120
Speaker 1: and Chris will stay on the line to talk, usually

2278
02:11:49,160 --> 02:11:51,680
Speaker 1: about Star Wars, and that in a way kind of

2279
02:11:51,840 --> 02:11:54,720
Speaker 1: is a workers council just for the factory of podcasting. Yeah,

2280
02:11:55,280 --> 02:12:00,280
Speaker 1: we talked about Star Wars in front of me. I

2281
02:12:00,360 --> 02:12:07,200
Speaker 1: feel so bad for next next next time, puppy face,

2282
02:12:08,800 --> 02:12:13,280
Speaker 1: it's okay, featuring your petite borshebat tactics won't work on me.

2283
02:12:16,160 --> 02:12:20,040
Speaker 1: Oh god, we all all the people on the separddit

2284
02:12:20,040 --> 02:12:21,520
Speaker 1: who think that we hate Sophie or going to just

2285
02:12:21,600 --> 02:12:25,520
Speaker 1: have a field day with this episode. Concy is my

2286
02:12:25,800 --> 02:12:32,800
Speaker 1: favorite recurring conspiracy. That's a real conspiracy. O. Man, wow,

2287
02:12:32,880 --> 02:12:34,600
Speaker 1: I have a lot of cutry up on to you.

2288
02:12:34,960 --> 02:12:39,120
Speaker 1: You do not know, you do not because it's not true.

2289
02:12:39,960 --> 02:12:45,840
Speaker 1: Run away. So meanwhile, meanwhile, so in the period when

2290
02:12:45,880 --> 02:12:49,520
Speaker 1: people actually like did this seriously, you know, there's a

2291
02:12:49,560 --> 02:12:52,240
Speaker 1: lot of sort of ideological things that come together to

2292
02:12:52,600 --> 02:12:55,920
Speaker 1: make it so that when people like you know, like

2293
02:12:56,040 --> 02:12:58,040
Speaker 1: when when bread prices increased too much, this is what

2294
02:12:58,160 --> 02:13:01,400
Speaker 1: people do. Um. And a lot of this has to

2295
02:13:01,520 --> 02:13:05,960
Speaker 1: do with the physical experience of what being a worker

2296
02:13:06,200 --> 02:13:09,760
Speaker 1: is in like you know, the centuries, like you have

2297
02:13:09,880 --> 02:13:14,840
Speaker 1: these like these these these these incredibly rapid like technological expansions,

2298
02:13:14,960 --> 02:13:17,960
Speaker 1: and you know, the people who are who are doing

2299
02:13:18,080 --> 02:13:19,960
Speaker 1: this stuff like see themselves as the creators of the

2300
02:13:20,000 --> 02:13:22,560
Speaker 1: new world, right like. And this is like literally this

2301
02:13:22,640 --> 02:13:24,360
Speaker 1: is sounding like these are the people who are literally

2302
02:13:24,480 --> 02:13:27,200
Speaker 1: like they are building the cities, right like, all all

2303
02:13:27,240 --> 02:13:29,160
Speaker 1: of the sort of the infrastructure of the modern world

2304
02:13:29,280 --> 02:13:32,800
Speaker 1: is physically being created by them. And this creates this

2305
02:13:33,160 --> 02:13:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, like if you're the person who is like

2306
02:13:36,320 --> 02:13:39,040
Speaker 1: who has transformed like this fishing village into this giant

2307
02:13:39,080 --> 02:13:43,560
Speaker 1: industrial city, right um, you know you you you see

2308
02:13:43,600 --> 02:13:46,560
Speaker 1: yourselves as the creator, like literally physically the creator of

2309
02:13:46,640 --> 02:13:49,520
Speaker 1: this new world is being developed. And then the second

2310
02:13:49,600 --> 02:13:51,920
Speaker 1: belief that that it produces that drives this movement is

2311
02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:53,760
Speaker 1: that the people who produce this world should be as

2312
02:13:53,800 --> 02:13:57,120
Speaker 1: inheritors and so and this this, this sort of this

2313
02:13:57,240 --> 02:13:59,920
Speaker 1: is what drives the workers movement in this period, which

2314
02:13:59,920 --> 02:14:02,320
Speaker 1: is that like, okay, so if if you if you

2315
02:14:02,400 --> 02:14:05,480
Speaker 1: are literally physically creating the new world, and you think

2316
02:14:05,520 --> 02:14:08,360
Speaker 1: that because you have created it, it should be yours. Uh,

2317
02:14:08,840 --> 02:14:10,760
Speaker 1: the next that the thing that you do because it's

2318
02:14:10,800 --> 02:14:13,720
Speaker 1: not yours, right, like you don't like yeah, you know,

2319
02:14:14,800 --> 02:14:17,280
Speaker 1: like the people who build cities are not the people

2320
02:14:17,400 --> 02:14:22,240
Speaker 1: who owned the cities. And you know if you see this, yeah,

2321
02:14:22,680 --> 02:14:24,720
Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, like in the city is actually owned

2322
02:14:24,760 --> 02:14:28,920
Speaker 1: by like three real estate speculators and like a bunch

2323
02:14:28,960 --> 02:14:32,400
Speaker 1: of cops, and more applicable examples like the people who

2324
02:14:32,440 --> 02:14:34,960
Speaker 1: build the cup podcast is not own the podcast. Yeah no,

2325
02:14:35,000 --> 02:14:37,480
Speaker 1: we don't own the podcast. Like we we are exactly

2326
02:14:37,520 --> 02:14:39,880
Speaker 1: a plicable result that you know, that kind of you know,

2327
02:14:40,120 --> 02:14:43,560
Speaker 1: everyone understands that example. Yeah, every we I actually don't

2328
02:14:43,600 --> 02:14:45,440
Speaker 1: think the people understand that we don't own the podcast.

2329
02:14:45,760 --> 02:14:48,840
Speaker 1: It's actually unclear to be I. I people people have

2330
02:14:48,920 --> 02:14:51,120
Speaker 1: weird things about how podcasting works. But yeah, we don't

2331
02:14:51,160 --> 02:14:55,440
Speaker 1: own the podcast. We just create it and we do

2332
02:14:55,560 --> 02:14:58,080
Speaker 1: all the work. And then Sophie sits in her leather

2333
02:14:58,320 --> 02:15:05,240
Speaker 1: chair looking to out at the leather chair chair over.

2334
02:15:05,880 --> 02:15:10,400
Speaker 1: I think it's all my podcast creations I have created

2335
02:15:10,560 --> 02:15:14,360
Speaker 1: and then usually so bad. How could you think I

2336
02:15:14,400 --> 02:15:17,000
Speaker 1: could sit here on an eight five degree day in

2337
02:15:17,080 --> 02:15:21,960
Speaker 1: a leather chair going to sulpie. At least get your

2338
02:15:22,080 --> 02:15:31,400
Speaker 1: facts right, my word a chair? Continue, Chris. Okay, So

2339
02:15:31,560 --> 02:15:34,440
Speaker 1: for the people who are like actually watching their boss,

2340
02:15:34,880 --> 02:15:37,560
Speaker 1: like sitting around smoking a giant cigar in a factory

2341
02:15:37,640 --> 02:15:41,280
Speaker 1: while they pound like hammers, or like work at a

2342
02:15:41,360 --> 02:15:47,560
Speaker 1: hospital and get a watch like just started a massive

2343
02:15:47,680 --> 02:15:54,200
Speaker 1: cigar and a comically large to give to prop. But

2344
02:15:56,480 --> 02:15:58,440
Speaker 1: because for the record, whenever I do hang out with

2345
02:15:58,560 --> 02:16:01,720
Speaker 1: my other boss, Robert, he often does in some chair

2346
02:16:01,800 --> 02:16:03,760
Speaker 1: smoking a cigar, and I do think it is in

2347
02:16:03,840 --> 02:16:09,840
Speaker 1: fact leather. Okay, So we're describing Robert before me, the

2348
02:16:09,880 --> 02:16:14,520
Speaker 1: slave away in my laptop writing scripts and yeah, work

2349
02:16:14,560 --> 02:16:17,560
Speaker 1: in the podcast minds. Yeah, it's it's it is. It

2350
02:16:17,720 --> 02:16:22,680
Speaker 1: is really hard out there and continue. So okay, So,

2351
02:16:22,840 --> 02:16:25,840
Speaker 1: like the belief that you produced the world and that

2352
02:16:25,960 --> 02:16:27,440
Speaker 1: if you produce you should own it is like this

2353
02:16:27,600 --> 02:16:29,280
Speaker 1: This is not unique to the part of the workers

2354
02:16:29,320 --> 02:16:32,200
Speaker 1: movement that like, you know, thinks that also you should

2355
02:16:32,240 --> 02:16:34,880
Speaker 1: like have a democracy and the factory and like you

2356
02:16:34,879 --> 02:16:36,920
Speaker 1: should have the autonomy to decide how you do your

2357
02:16:36,920 --> 02:16:39,760
Speaker 1: work and what needs to be done. Uh that those

2358
02:16:39,840 --> 02:16:42,800
Speaker 1: beliefs like broadly comprise the ideology of like the entire

2359
02:16:42,879 --> 02:16:46,120
Speaker 1: workers movement, and by you know, by by the century,

2360
02:16:46,120 --> 02:16:48,600
Speaker 1: the workers movement is really really broad, right, I mean

2361
02:16:48,640 --> 02:16:51,920
Speaker 1: it stretches from sort of like really mild social democratic

2362
02:16:52,000 --> 02:16:54,440
Speaker 1: trade unionists to like the intellectual heads of these like

2363
02:16:54,520 --> 02:16:58,000
Speaker 1: Leninist vanguard parties. But what makes the democratic wing unique

2364
02:16:58,160 --> 02:17:02,320
Speaker 1: is that the r concern is the fundamental alienation of

2365
02:17:02,400 --> 02:17:04,320
Speaker 1: factory life. And and this this is I mean, originally

2366
02:17:04,360 --> 02:17:06,320
Speaker 1: like it is very much factory life, but like this

2367
02:17:06,520 --> 02:17:09,680
Speaker 1: this gets expanded out as this goes on into sort

2368
02:17:09,720 --> 02:17:14,160
Speaker 1: of the like the fundamental alienation of labor itself, which

2369
02:17:14,600 --> 02:17:17,000
Speaker 1: is just this condition of being reduced to an object

2370
02:17:17,080 --> 02:17:19,720
Speaker 1: by bosses who use you as a tool to do something.

2371
02:17:21,160 --> 02:17:23,400
Speaker 1: And you know, and this this is a concern for

2372
02:17:23,480 --> 02:17:25,320
Speaker 1: everyone in some sense, but but for the Lenins and

2373
02:17:25,360 --> 02:17:28,280
Speaker 1: social democrats, alienation is just like a product of ownership

2374
02:17:28,360 --> 02:17:31,920
Speaker 1: or distribution. Right. So you know, if if that's what

2375
02:17:32,040 --> 02:17:35,360
Speaker 1: you believe, the way you defeat alienation is through the

2376
02:17:35,400 --> 02:17:37,760
Speaker 1: working class of productive capacity, not in it, not in

2377
02:17:37,840 --> 02:17:39,920
Speaker 1: sort of like any kind of like innate human like

2378
02:17:40,440 --> 02:17:43,160
Speaker 1: humanity or creativity. Like all you have to do is like, well, okay,

2379
02:17:43,160 --> 02:17:46,080
Speaker 1: you flip a switch, right, and the factory is now

2380
02:17:46,160 --> 02:17:49,000
Speaker 1: owned by the state instead of being owned by like

2381
02:17:50,640 --> 02:17:53,600
Speaker 1: JP Morgan or something like, Now your alienation is gone.

2382
02:17:54,720 --> 02:17:57,440
Speaker 1: That's how it works. Yeah, Or and and your social democracy.

2383
02:17:57,480 --> 02:17:59,840
Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay, so you you you, you flip

2384
02:17:59,879 --> 02:18:02,640
Speaker 1: a whitch and taxes get higher, and now you have

2385
02:18:02,720 --> 02:18:05,600
Speaker 1: a union, but you're still working for gold You're still

2386
02:18:05,640 --> 02:18:09,240
Speaker 1: working for the Goldman Sachs. But you know, but for

2387
02:18:09,440 --> 02:18:11,400
Speaker 1: for for for for the wing of the workers movements

2388
02:18:11,680 --> 02:18:17,320
Speaker 1: that you know actually cares about democracy. This doesn't solve anything, right, Like,

2389
02:18:17,600 --> 02:18:22,720
Speaker 1: as long as the fundamental relation of being the like

2390
02:18:22,879 --> 02:18:25,240
Speaker 1: of being an object rights. As long as like you,

2391
02:18:25,440 --> 02:18:28,120
Speaker 1: fundamentally the worker are not are not a human being

2392
02:18:28,320 --> 02:18:31,080
Speaker 1: who has agency and control and autonomy over their life.

2393
02:18:31,120 --> 02:18:34,680
Speaker 1: As long as you're just an object that you know,

2394
02:18:34,920 --> 02:18:37,560
Speaker 1: like you're you're like you, you you're a living human

2395
02:18:37,680 --> 02:18:40,200
Speaker 1: tool that the one man ruler of the factory can

2396
02:18:40,320 --> 02:18:42,720
Speaker 1: like you know, can can wield around to do whatever

2397
02:18:42,760 --> 02:18:44,640
Speaker 1: they want. As as long as that persists, changes in

2398
02:18:44,680 --> 02:18:47,520
Speaker 1: ownership structure and need like health benefits missed the entire point.

2399
02:18:48,280 --> 02:18:51,240
Speaker 1: And this kind of the degradation that comes from just

2400
02:18:51,560 --> 02:18:54,160
Speaker 1: being a tool can only be solved by returning agency

2401
02:18:54,160 --> 02:18:56,960
Speaker 1: and autonomy to the working class. And that means like

2402
02:18:57,080 --> 02:19:01,000
Speaker 1: actually giving the class control over the production process. And

2403
02:19:01,200 --> 02:19:04,080
Speaker 1: you know, in in in notty six and Spain, workers

2404
02:19:04,720 --> 02:19:06,720
Speaker 1: are like funk this and decided to take the entire

2405
02:19:06,800 --> 02:19:09,560
Speaker 1: thing into their own hands. And they do this by

2406
02:19:09,680 --> 02:19:11,880
Speaker 1: just seizing their workplaces and mass and this becomes known

2407
02:19:11,879 --> 02:19:14,840
Speaker 1: as a Spanish revolution um and it is one of

2408
02:19:14,920 --> 02:19:18,920
Speaker 1: the most extensive sort of experiments. And like workers democratic

2409
02:19:18,920 --> 02:19:20,960
Speaker 1: self managements or like whatever whatever you want to call

2410
02:19:21,160 --> 02:19:23,640
Speaker 1: people making their own decisions in the workplace like that

2411
02:19:23,720 --> 02:19:26,760
Speaker 1: has ever happened, like especially in the modern era. Like

2412
02:19:27,000 --> 02:19:30,080
Speaker 1: everything from like public utilities to like bakeries to hospitals

2413
02:19:30,160 --> 02:19:33,040
Speaker 1: to shoe factories like falls under the direct control of

2414
02:19:33,120 --> 02:19:35,400
Speaker 1: these like democratic unions. And once their bosses have been

2415
02:19:35,480 --> 02:19:38,840
Speaker 1: like you know, chased from the premises and like flee

2416
02:19:38,959 --> 02:19:43,400
Speaker 1: and terror uh, these workers set about like transforming the

2417
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:46,440
Speaker 1: entirety of Spanish society along democratic lines. Like they pulled

2418
02:19:46,480 --> 02:19:49,400
Speaker 1: their resources together collectively and they allocate them democratically for

2419
02:19:49,440 --> 02:19:52,360
Speaker 1: the benefit of like siety as a whole, and for

2420
02:19:52,440 --> 02:19:54,640
Speaker 1: a brief moment this works. They have this incredible, like

2421
02:19:54,720 --> 02:19:58,600
Speaker 1: this triumphant experiment democratic self managements, and output increases dramatically

2422
02:19:58,640 --> 02:20:02,480
Speaker 1: and social services are expanded, and like in in In

2423
02:20:02,959 --> 02:20:04,840
Speaker 1: in the span of two years in the middle of

2424
02:20:04,879 --> 02:20:07,360
Speaker 1: a civil war, like the workers of Spain are able

2425
02:20:07,400 --> 02:20:10,520
Speaker 1: to create a universal health care system that expands karento

2426
02:20:10,600 --> 02:20:13,440
Speaker 1: like like rural areas of Spain where like you couldn't

2427
02:20:13,440 --> 02:20:16,440
Speaker 1: get it before. But you know, the problem is once

2428
02:20:16,480 --> 02:20:18,240
Speaker 1: again is that this is happening to the civil war

2429
02:20:18,480 --> 02:20:22,000
Speaker 1: and and a lot like you know, and using sort

2430
02:20:22,040 --> 02:20:24,800
Speaker 1: of like nominally anti fascism like as as they're sort

2431
02:20:24,800 --> 02:20:28,080
Speaker 1: of like you know, they're using the threat of the

2432
02:20:28,160 --> 02:20:30,320
Speaker 1: NIED too post fascism as as a sort of front

2433
02:20:30,400 --> 02:20:33,080
Speaker 1: like a French for what they're actually doing. You get

2434
02:20:33,080 --> 02:20:36,760
Speaker 1: this alliance of liberals, liberal socialists and Stalinists who just

2435
02:20:36,920 --> 02:20:39,680
Speaker 1: like brutally stamp out any attempt that you democratic self

2436
02:20:39,680 --> 02:20:43,000
Speaker 1: management and like you have like Soviet cadreastion like NKVD,

2437
02:20:43,240 --> 02:20:46,320
Speaker 1: like Soviet secret police guys like literally leading armies into

2438
02:20:46,400 --> 02:20:49,880
Speaker 1: into these cities and like like killing like killing the

2439
02:20:49,920 --> 02:20:53,199
Speaker 1: workers and then physically like taking control of these factories

2440
02:20:53,200 --> 02:20:55,040
Speaker 1: that people had sees and giving them back to the bosses,

2441
02:20:56,800 --> 02:20:58,160
Speaker 1: which is you know, this is this is great. This

2442
02:20:58,200 --> 02:21:02,280
Speaker 1: is a great communist stuff. And yeah, the you know,

2443
02:21:02,640 --> 02:21:05,000
Speaker 1: and this this this ends exactly how you would expect

2444
02:21:05,040 --> 02:21:08,400
Speaker 1: it to end with. Yeah, like this this the Stalinists

2445
02:21:08,440 --> 02:21:10,600
Speaker 1: get everything they want. They murder all of the people

2446
02:21:10,640 --> 02:21:13,120
Speaker 1: who want like a factory council, and then they all

2447
02:21:13,160 --> 02:21:16,480
Speaker 1: get killed by Franco. But you know, undeterred by sort

2448
02:21:16,480 --> 02:21:20,520
Speaker 1: of the casualty tolls of these like massacres by people

2449
02:21:20,560 --> 02:21:24,920
Speaker 1: who want bosses. Uh, this just keeps happening, and you know,

2450
02:21:25,480 --> 02:21:28,160
Speaker 1: by the time you get to the sties, like all

2451
02:21:28,160 --> 02:21:30,400
Speaker 1: this stuff is back. Like there there's there's factory councils

2452
02:21:30,400 --> 02:21:32,560
Speaker 1: again in Hungary, you get them, in Italy and France

2453
02:21:32,600 --> 02:21:36,640
Speaker 1: and the Chichoslovakia N eight there's like like they're there there. There,

2454
02:21:36,640 --> 02:21:39,080
Speaker 1: there's councils being like there, there's there's communes being formed

2455
02:21:39,120 --> 02:21:41,680
Speaker 1: in like Vietnam. There's like they're that We've talked about

2456
02:21:41,680 --> 02:21:45,560
Speaker 1: the cordonation UH in Chile on this show before like

2457
02:21:45,680 --> 02:21:49,600
Speaker 1: these things are happening everywhere, and I think Hungary in

2458
02:21:49,680 --> 02:21:53,640
Speaker 1: particular is a really interesting one because so there's a

2459
02:21:53,680 --> 02:21:58,320
Speaker 1: revolution in Hungary against sort of the Soviets in six

2460
02:21:58,640 --> 02:22:02,279
Speaker 1: that's it gets a lot of the same liberal mythologizing

2461
02:22:02,320 --> 02:22:05,520
Speaker 1: that you get with Tenemen, but like kind of more

2462
02:22:05,560 --> 02:22:08,640
Speaker 1: egregious here. So I don't know, I think, like I

2463
02:22:09,040 --> 02:22:12,240
Speaker 1: I got taught this revolution in schools is like one

2464
02:22:12,240 --> 02:22:14,720
Speaker 1: of the few ones that we actually get and they

2465
02:22:14,800 --> 02:22:17,279
Speaker 1: taught it as this like this is like the Hungarian

2466
02:22:17,320 --> 02:22:20,119
Speaker 1: revolution was just like kind of nationalists, like liberal democratic

2467
02:22:20,160 --> 02:22:22,640
Speaker 1: revolution for people who wanted like democracy and freedom and

2468
02:22:22,760 --> 02:22:25,800
Speaker 1: like free markets. And then like you know, if you

2469
02:22:25,840 --> 02:22:27,480
Speaker 1: go read about what the people were at but people

2470
02:22:27,520 --> 02:22:30,240
Speaker 1: actually doing the revolution we're saying, you get quotes like this,

2471
02:22:30,920 --> 02:22:32,440
Speaker 1: this is a direct quote from a member of one

2472
02:22:32,480 --> 02:22:35,520
Speaker 1: of the Hungarian workers councils. The time when the boss

2473
02:22:35,600 --> 02:22:41,480
Speaker 1: is decided, our fate is over, and it's like these

2474
02:22:41,520 --> 02:22:44,880
Speaker 1: these guys, these guys do not seem like I don't know,

2475
02:22:45,160 --> 02:22:48,000
Speaker 1: these guys don't seem like liberal democrats. Something weird is

2476
02:22:48,040 --> 02:22:49,800
Speaker 1: happening here. That's something that's actually happening, is that like

2477
02:22:50,600 --> 02:22:53,120
Speaker 1: Hungarian workers like sees control of their factories and like

2478
02:22:53,160 --> 02:22:55,080
Speaker 1: the workplaces, and they formed workers councils the overs of

2479
02:22:55,120 --> 02:22:57,640
Speaker 1: the government, and then the Russian slaughter them all. But

2480
02:22:57,800 --> 02:23:00,720
Speaker 1: you know, like this is not liberal democratic revolution at all,

2481
02:23:00,760 --> 02:23:03,320
Speaker 1: that this is a revolt against the tatorship in the workplace,

2482
02:23:03,800 --> 02:23:06,959
Speaker 1: and there's an identical revolts breakout across both the capitalist

2483
02:23:07,040 --> 02:23:10,120
Speaker 1: world and the communist world, and in the newly de

2484
02:23:10,200 --> 02:23:13,560
Speaker 1: colonized society start seeing them too, and you know, and

2485
02:23:14,040 --> 02:23:17,840
Speaker 1: to the sort of like dismay of both the communists

2486
02:23:17,879 --> 02:23:20,160
Speaker 1: and the capitalists who are both like, oh my god,

2487
02:23:20,200 --> 02:23:22,640
Speaker 1: why is and we keep holming workers councils like this

2488
02:23:22,840 --> 02:23:26,640
Speaker 1: solution to alienation, Like it's not like an ideological thing, right,

2489
02:23:26,680 --> 02:23:29,040
Speaker 1: Like it's it's not that there's like a group of

2490
02:23:29,120 --> 02:23:32,400
Speaker 1: people who are like secretly infiltrating these countries and being like, okay,

2491
02:23:32,400 --> 02:23:35,120
Speaker 1: you needful workers councils. This this is this stuff is

2492
02:23:35,120 --> 02:23:37,320
Speaker 1: happening in places where there's just like none of that.

2493
02:23:38,320 --> 02:23:39,960
Speaker 1: So like one of one of the sort of like

2494
02:23:40,959 --> 02:23:43,600
Speaker 1: movements that that does stuff like this is is the

2495
02:23:43,680 --> 02:23:47,600
Speaker 1: revolution in Algeria. Um, you know, and they're like they're

2496
02:23:47,640 --> 02:23:49,680
Speaker 1: they're there are like Algeria like does have a pretty

2497
02:23:49,720 --> 02:23:52,720
Speaker 1: high level of political education, but the political education they're

2498
02:23:52,720 --> 02:23:56,040
Speaker 1: getting is from like it's it's from the National Liberation Front,

2499
02:23:56,080 --> 02:23:58,840
Speaker 1: which is like asofar As, it's any one thing. It's

2500
02:23:58,879 --> 02:24:00,880
Speaker 1: like it's a nationalist vankard this movements, which is you

2501
02:24:00,920 --> 02:24:02,760
Speaker 1: know that they're the people who like fight the French

2502
02:24:02,800 --> 02:24:06,880
Speaker 1: colonizers and beat them and their ideology like asofar As,

2503
02:24:06,879 --> 02:24:08,320
Speaker 1: you can describe one out the Allo egion. Like the

2504
02:24:08,360 --> 02:24:10,280
Speaker 1: thing that they want is like the state having this

2505
02:24:10,360 --> 02:24:14,440
Speaker 1: decisive role of national development. But you know, immediately it's

2506
02:24:14,680 --> 02:24:17,960
Speaker 1: taking power off. And BenBella, who's Algeria's first president, like

2507
02:24:18,080 --> 02:24:20,480
Speaker 1: discovers that, you know, he's not actually going to be

2508
02:24:20,600 --> 02:24:23,080
Speaker 1: the one like making the decision about what the country's

2509
02:24:23,080 --> 02:24:26,000
Speaker 1: economic structure is going to be because he takes power

2510
02:24:26,480 --> 02:24:29,240
Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of like French people who lived

2511
02:24:29,240 --> 02:24:34,360
Speaker 1: in Algeria of flee, and basically what happens immediately after

2512
02:24:34,600 --> 02:24:37,240
Speaker 1: is that all of like all of these this property

2513
02:24:37,320 --> 02:24:41,520
Speaker 1: that have been originally like held by by by French

2514
02:24:41,600 --> 02:24:45,960
Speaker 1: sort of like colonists, like it gets immediately seized by

2515
02:24:46,000 --> 02:24:48,200
Speaker 1: the Algerian working class and you know, they build their

2516
02:24:48,240 --> 02:24:51,400
Speaker 1: own workers councils, and you know, BenBella is like, Okay,

2517
02:24:51,440 --> 02:24:53,920
Speaker 1: I guess I guess we have like workers councils now,

2518
02:24:54,400 --> 02:24:56,040
Speaker 1: like I guess I guess we have sort of like

2519
02:24:56,080 --> 02:25:01,000
Speaker 1: autonomous democratic production and BenBella is like kind of trying

2520
02:25:01,080 --> 02:25:05,560
Speaker 1: to undermine them. But he doesn't really get a chance

2521
02:25:05,640 --> 02:25:08,480
Speaker 1: to because once again there's a military coup and Bembella

2522
02:25:09,800 --> 02:25:13,000
Speaker 1: like he I think he escapes and doesn't die. But

2523
02:25:13,120 --> 02:25:14,960
Speaker 1: like the fact that the council's all sort of get

2524
02:25:15,000 --> 02:25:17,760
Speaker 1: dismantled again. But like the number of times this has

2525
02:25:17,800 --> 02:25:21,200
Speaker 1: happened is getting just like completely out of hand, and

2526
02:25:21,680 --> 02:25:25,240
Speaker 1: it's like yeah, okay, the it's like yeah, okay, so

2527
02:25:25,560 --> 02:25:27,680
Speaker 1: every time this happens, they murder everyone. But like you know,

2528
02:25:27,760 --> 02:25:29,560
Speaker 1: the revolutions keep happening, and they keep happening, and they

2529
02:25:29,640 --> 02:25:34,320
Speaker 1: keep happening, and you know, even even as late as

2530
02:25:34,360 --> 02:25:36,520
Speaker 1: like the late seventies, like it's not clear that that

2531
02:25:36,640 --> 02:25:39,400
Speaker 1: that like it's it's not clear that the people who

2532
02:25:39,480 --> 02:25:41,040
Speaker 1: want one man role in the factory are gonna win.

2533
02:25:41,160 --> 02:25:44,200
Speaker 1: Like there's this moment in Italy nineteen seventy seven where

2534
02:25:44,240 --> 02:25:46,160
Speaker 1: it's like this just like giant student student and worker

2535
02:25:46,200 --> 02:25:50,440
Speaker 1: coalition almost takes power. Um, Like in Spain even after

2536
02:25:50,600 --> 02:25:54,440
Speaker 1: like fifty years of of like Franco and like the

2537
02:25:54,680 --> 02:25:57,680
Speaker 1: fascist octatorship, like the c n T, which is the

2538
02:25:57,720 --> 02:25:59,920
Speaker 1: anarchist union that had done the revolution like reappears in

2539
02:26:00,000 --> 02:26:02,080
Speaker 1: the seventies again even though everyone thought it was gone,

2540
02:26:02,840 --> 02:26:06,680
Speaker 1: and like, you know, this is a real this is

2541
02:26:06,720 --> 02:26:11,320
Speaker 1: a real source of strife for especially the sort of

2542
02:26:11,360 --> 02:26:17,320
Speaker 1: capitalist managerial elite. Who are you know they this stuff

2543
02:26:17,400 --> 02:26:20,279
Speaker 1: keeps happening. It's like okay, like it is an unacceptable

2544
02:26:20,400 --> 02:26:22,160
Speaker 1: risk that one of the one day one of these

2545
02:26:22,160 --> 02:26:26,320
Speaker 1: groups is going to win. And so they start looking

2546
02:26:26,360 --> 02:26:28,880
Speaker 1: for a way to like dismantle this sort of like

2547
02:26:29,400 --> 02:26:32,280
Speaker 1: systemic things that like create that that caused people to

2548
02:26:32,400 --> 02:26:34,920
Speaker 1: do this. But you know, but they're but they're trying

2549
02:26:34,920 --> 02:26:36,520
Speaker 1: to do it in a way that doesn't involve the

2550
02:26:36,600 --> 02:26:41,640
Speaker 1: giving up their power. Um. So Yeah, as Vicky austen

2551
02:26:41,680 --> 02:26:44,400
Speaker 1: Whild points out, this sort of like this like instinctive

2552
02:26:44,440 --> 02:26:46,400
Speaker 1: embrace of like democracy in the factory, like as a

2553
02:26:46,400 --> 02:26:50,160
Speaker 1: political program, it's only possible as long as factories, as

2554
02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:51,840
Speaker 1: long as like the factory functions is the point of

2555
02:26:51,920 --> 02:26:54,480
Speaker 1: encounter her. I think it was her term for was

2556
02:26:54,600 --> 02:26:57,200
Speaker 1: She calls it a darker Gora, which is like, so

2557
02:26:57,360 --> 02:26:59,080
Speaker 1: Gore is like like the sort of like the Greek

2558
02:26:59,120 --> 02:27:01,920
Speaker 1: marketplace in the center of town. Everyone goes there and

2559
02:27:02,080 --> 02:27:05,800
Speaker 1: you like talk about things, right, and the factory serves

2560
02:27:06,040 --> 02:27:07,400
Speaker 1: as this kind of like it's this sort of like

2561
02:27:07,480 --> 02:27:10,520
Speaker 1: dark version of it. Were Like, on the one hand,

2562
02:27:11,080 --> 02:27:13,520
Speaker 1: you know, it facilitates these interactions that allow people to

2563
02:27:13,560 --> 02:27:16,600
Speaker 1: sort of like identify with each other and like you know,

2564
02:27:16,720 --> 02:27:20,160
Speaker 1: create collective meaning by like interacting with each other. But

2565
02:27:20,280 --> 02:27:22,120
Speaker 1: on the other hand, it exists to exploit you, and

2566
02:27:22,200 --> 02:27:25,160
Speaker 1: it's like terrible and you're just getting you know, you're

2567
02:27:25,200 --> 02:27:27,800
Speaker 1: getting physically and socially destroyed like every moment you're in it.

2568
02:27:28,520 --> 02:27:31,400
Speaker 1: But you know it's it's still is a place where

2569
02:27:31,440 --> 02:27:34,160
Speaker 1: you can like assemble an identity as like like you

2570
02:27:34,320 --> 02:27:35,880
Speaker 1: and a bunch of the people around you can go like, hey,

2571
02:27:35,959 --> 02:27:38,360
Speaker 1: like we are workers, right, like we are the working class,

2572
02:27:38,400 --> 02:27:40,240
Speaker 1: and this this is like a shared political identity that

2573
02:27:40,320 --> 02:27:43,440
Speaker 1: you have that allows you to do things. And so

2574
02:27:44,200 --> 02:27:46,600
Speaker 1: the thrust of sort of the attack against this takes

2575
02:27:46,640 --> 02:27:48,600
Speaker 1: the form of this attack on like the shop floor

2576
02:27:48,680 --> 02:27:51,640
Speaker 1: as like a side of like formation of identities that

2577
02:27:51,720 --> 02:27:55,480
Speaker 1: that can allow you to mobilize stuff. And so this

2578
02:27:55,560 --> 02:27:58,520
Speaker 1: takes like a number of forms. Um most famously, there's

2579
02:27:58,560 --> 02:28:01,520
Speaker 1: there's it's the industrialization and this sort of like spatial

2580
02:28:01,600 --> 02:28:04,039
Speaker 1: relocation of factories. So like like part of what's going

2581
02:28:04,080 --> 02:28:06,400
Speaker 1: on right is that you have a you have a

2582
02:28:06,480 --> 02:28:08,800
Speaker 1: bunch of people who work in a factory, and then

2583
02:28:08,840 --> 02:28:11,840
Speaker 1: they live like around like right around the factories. Right

2584
02:28:12,200 --> 02:28:13,760
Speaker 1: were they work in a coal mine and everyone lives

2585
02:28:13,800 --> 02:28:15,840
Speaker 1: in a town around the coal mine. And this means

2586
02:28:15,879 --> 02:28:18,400
Speaker 1: that everyone sees each other constantly, and they're like constantly

2587
02:28:18,520 --> 02:28:20,520
Speaker 1: like running into each other and like physically talking to

2588
02:28:20,600 --> 02:28:24,480
Speaker 1: each other. And you know, this is a really good

2589
02:28:24,520 --> 02:28:28,880
Speaker 1: way to create radical politics. So what what happens is

2590
02:28:29,040 --> 02:28:32,200
Speaker 1: you these factories get sent out to the suburbs, and

2591
02:28:33,560 --> 02:28:35,680
Speaker 1: this allows you to to create places where you know,

2592
02:28:35,720 --> 02:28:37,520
Speaker 1: workers are isolated from each other and you know, and

2593
02:28:37,560 --> 02:28:38,920
Speaker 1: the other thing you can do is you turn workers

2594
02:28:38,959 --> 02:28:42,039
Speaker 1: into homeowners and you sort of like buy them off

2595
02:28:42,080 --> 02:28:44,320
Speaker 1: with this combination of like cheap credit and this promise

2596
02:28:44,440 --> 02:28:46,840
Speaker 1: that like their houses would not be a financial asset.

2597
02:28:47,879 --> 02:28:50,520
Speaker 1: And so as the sort of eighties rolls on, the

2598
02:28:51,080 --> 02:28:53,800
Speaker 1: sort of the the like the herald of democratization of

2599
02:28:53,879 --> 02:28:56,360
Speaker 1: finance or places democratization, and the factory is sort of

2600
02:28:56,440 --> 02:28:58,960
Speaker 1: the capitalist class. Like the other thing they do that's

2601
02:28:59,000 --> 02:29:03,680
Speaker 1: like really insidious. They they tied like the remaining union

2602
02:29:03,720 --> 02:29:06,720
Speaker 1: pensions into the stock market. This is stuff like you

2603
02:29:06,760 --> 02:29:08,560
Speaker 1: see today with like four o one case, and it

2604
02:29:08,640 --> 02:29:12,000
Speaker 1: means that like if you want to like have a retirement,

2605
02:29:12,280 --> 02:29:15,040
Speaker 1: you are like physically literally invested in the stock market,

2606
02:29:16,040 --> 02:29:18,480
Speaker 1: which ties you know, which ties everyone sort of like

2607
02:29:18,560 --> 02:29:21,680
Speaker 1: into the system. And corporations start to turn workplaces into

2608
02:29:21,720 --> 02:29:25,440
Speaker 1: these like enormous propaganda apparatus. Is you get like like

2609
02:29:25,560 --> 02:29:28,480
Speaker 1: Walmart in particular, has these like like these vast ideological

2610
02:29:28,640 --> 02:29:31,080
Speaker 1: like programming things that they run that are designed to

2611
02:29:31,120 --> 02:29:34,600
Speaker 1: sort of like get you to identify with the corporation

2612
02:29:34,680 --> 02:29:37,160
Speaker 1: itself and not with like the other people you're you know,

2613
02:29:37,320 --> 02:29:39,040
Speaker 1: like the other people you're within the class as a whole,

2614
02:29:39,080 --> 02:29:40,760
Speaker 1: and you know, and like the other thing that they're

2615
02:29:40,760 --> 02:29:44,080
Speaker 1: able to do is the fact that capital is mobile

2616
02:29:44,120 --> 02:29:48,359
Speaker 1: and workers like aren't allows you know, combined with logistics advances,

2617
02:29:48,480 --> 02:29:50,280
Speaker 1: and it means that like if workers ever start getting

2618
02:29:50,280 --> 02:29:53,960
Speaker 1: in upper hands somewhere, capitalist can just leave and the

2619
02:29:54,080 --> 02:29:55,840
Speaker 1: process that you see, is that as the sort of

2620
02:29:55,879 --> 02:29:58,480
Speaker 1: the total number of people working in the like in

2621
02:29:58,560 --> 02:30:01,199
Speaker 1: industrial work keeps decreasing, as a center of the population

2622
02:30:01,240 --> 02:30:06,400
Speaker 1: that keeps decreasing. And as this happens, capitalists are just like, okay, skirt,

2623
02:30:06,440 --> 02:30:08,120
Speaker 1: we're gon, we're gonna, we're gonna pick up our tools

2624
02:30:08,160 --> 02:30:12,480
Speaker 1: and leave. And this spits out like enormous populations who

2625
02:30:12,480 --> 02:30:15,040
Speaker 1: are just like kicked out of atitional workforce entirely. And

2626
02:30:15,160 --> 02:30:18,960
Speaker 1: these developments, this is what actually like eventually destroys the

2627
02:30:19,000 --> 02:30:21,240
Speaker 1: classical workers t mouvement is the abilability to leave from

2628
02:30:21,240 --> 02:30:22,840
Speaker 1: the sort of destruction of the factory is like a

2629
02:30:22,959 --> 02:30:26,040
Speaker 1: site of stuff. But in order for this to work,

2630
02:30:26,480 --> 02:30:29,200
Speaker 1: the one thing they need is a place to move

2631
02:30:29,280 --> 02:30:31,600
Speaker 1: to write. They need somewhere with this large exploitable labor

2632
02:30:31,680 --> 02:30:35,280
Speaker 1: supply that has been like crushed enough that it won't

2633
02:30:35,320 --> 02:30:40,240
Speaker 1: revolt against them. And the capitalist class finds that in

2634
02:30:40,680 --> 02:30:45,040
Speaker 1: our products and services, and we're we're we're back, We're

2635
02:30:45,200 --> 02:30:49,160
Speaker 1: we're back, and we're we're back to China. And Okay,

2636
02:30:49,280 --> 02:30:51,440
Speaker 1: so I've been talking about the way this sort of

2637
02:30:51,560 --> 02:30:54,199
Speaker 1: like this this whole system, like this whole factory system

2638
02:30:54,400 --> 02:30:58,520
Speaker 1: mass production stuff like develops. But China is weird because

2639
02:30:58,720 --> 02:31:00,360
Speaker 1: this is the one place where the fact your system

2640
02:31:00,400 --> 02:31:04,840
Speaker 1: works like really differently than everywhere else. Um, there's a

2641
02:31:04,840 --> 02:31:06,200
Speaker 1: lot of reasons for this, one of which is it

2642
02:31:06,320 --> 02:31:09,959
Speaker 1: like so change like stayed on firms. It's like almost

2643
02:31:10,000 --> 02:31:13,440
Speaker 1: impossible for them to fire someone because I mean there's

2644
02:31:13,440 --> 02:31:14,480
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons for this, and one of them

2645
02:31:14,520 --> 02:31:16,520
Speaker 1: is that like people's entire sort of social sphere is

2646
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:18,840
Speaker 1: built around their work unit. And like their work unit

2647
02:31:18,920 --> 02:31:20,440
Speaker 1: is like it is the is the company you work for,

2648
02:31:20,560 --> 02:31:22,959
Speaker 1: and there's this whole sort of like legal apparatus built

2649
02:31:22,959 --> 02:31:25,240
Speaker 1: around it, and its like you know, and like this

2650
02:31:25,600 --> 02:31:28,080
Speaker 1: like unit gives you everything from like your retirement, like

2651
02:31:28,200 --> 02:31:31,200
Speaker 1: it like feeds you, like there's often entertainment stuff like

2652
02:31:31,240 --> 02:31:33,320
Speaker 1: tied into it, Like you get healthcare, you get like

2653
02:31:33,440 --> 02:31:37,280
Speaker 1: childcare from it. And the CP also gets rid of

2654
02:31:37,360 --> 02:31:39,240
Speaker 1: the peace rate system, which is just like this is

2655
02:31:39,320 --> 02:31:41,560
Speaker 1: this thing that like I mean, it's so there's a

2656
02:31:41,560 --> 02:31:43,160
Speaker 1: lot of capitalist places to work with this word's like okay,

2657
02:31:43,200 --> 02:31:45,760
Speaker 1: so the peace rate system is you pay people for

2658
02:31:45,840 --> 02:31:48,160
Speaker 1: like every unit of something they produce, so like you

2659
02:31:48,200 --> 02:31:50,640
Speaker 1: get paid by like I don't know like how many

2660
02:31:50,760 --> 02:31:52,640
Speaker 1: like how many pounds of like cherities you can pick.

2661
02:31:53,879 --> 02:31:57,920
Speaker 1: And so the USSR brings this back because the USSR

2662
02:31:58,000 --> 02:32:01,320
Speaker 1: and the US are really not that different. But China

2663
02:32:01,480 --> 02:32:04,960
Speaker 1: is like, nah, this like sucks. This is capitalism and

2664
02:32:05,600 --> 02:32:07,160
Speaker 1: you know, okay, like I'm not gonna say the Chinese

2665
02:32:07,200 --> 02:32:10,920
Speaker 1: factory system is great, but like because they don't have

2666
02:32:11,080 --> 02:32:13,160
Speaker 1: the peace ray system is because they can't fire people.

2667
02:32:14,360 --> 02:32:16,920
Speaker 1: You get this very you get this weird thing where

2668
02:32:16,959 --> 02:32:20,360
Speaker 1: it's like the people who run the factories like don't

2669
02:32:20,760 --> 02:32:26,040
Speaker 1: have very good ways to force people to work. And

2670
02:32:26,400 --> 02:32:28,480
Speaker 1: because of this, they like they sort of like have

2671
02:32:28,720 --> 02:32:31,600
Speaker 1: to allow this degree of participation in the worker process,

2672
02:32:31,760 --> 02:32:33,160
Speaker 1: like in the labor process that like you don't really

2673
02:32:33,200 --> 02:32:35,440
Speaker 1: see most of the places and the everything they have

2674
02:32:35,720 --> 02:32:39,080
Speaker 1: that I luckily Garrison and I also have this is

2675
02:32:39,320 --> 02:32:43,040
Speaker 1: we have the ability to criticize our bosses. Although we

2676
02:32:43,200 --> 02:32:50,480
Speaker 1: we have more of this these guys. But one day ahead,

2677
02:32:52,080 --> 02:32:53,640
Speaker 1: one one okay, we we we've got it. We don't,

2678
02:32:53,640 --> 02:32:55,560
Speaker 1: we don't. We don't have our big character poster yet,

2679
02:32:55,600 --> 02:32:56,960
Speaker 1: but like one day Garrison and I are going to

2680
02:32:57,000 --> 02:32:59,560
Speaker 1: show up to the office with like giant big character

2681
02:32:59,680 --> 02:33:02,360
Speaker 1: post with your faces on it. They like have specifically,

2682
02:33:02,480 --> 02:33:04,120
Speaker 1: Roberts are gonna have a list of crimes on it.

2683
02:33:05,560 --> 02:33:07,640
Speaker 1: My favorite part of like big labor protests when they

2684
02:33:07,680 --> 02:33:12,160
Speaker 1: make those giant like puppets. If we just make a

2685
02:33:12,240 --> 02:33:14,560
Speaker 1: giant's tech puppet version of Robert and Sophie that we

2686
02:33:14,680 --> 02:33:18,840
Speaker 1: just prayed around the office, that's long as mind's bigger

2687
02:33:18,920 --> 02:33:28,080
Speaker 1: than Robert's, that's fine, we can do that, right, full support.

2688
02:33:28,720 --> 02:33:30,879
Speaker 1: So we were got to do this in China, It's

2689
02:33:31,040 --> 02:33:33,400
Speaker 1: it's weird, like you have the ability to do this,

2690
02:33:33,600 --> 02:33:36,640
Speaker 1: but like it's like run to the party and so

2691
02:33:36,760 --> 02:33:39,160
Speaker 1: if someone gets unpopular enough, like the party will like

2692
02:33:39,240 --> 02:33:43,000
Speaker 1: start a campaign about how bad like that one boss is,

2693
02:33:43,040 --> 02:33:44,560
Speaker 1: and then you can show up to like the meeting

2694
02:33:44,600 --> 02:33:46,520
Speaker 1: and go like, hey, I hate my boss. This guy sucks.

2695
02:33:46,840 --> 02:33:50,200
Speaker 1: But they're just replacing with like another boss, right, So

2696
02:33:50,360 --> 02:33:55,680
Speaker 1: it's not like it's not actually a democratic system really,

2697
02:33:56,680 --> 02:33:58,960
Speaker 1: but the way that it works ensures that like the

2698
02:33:59,120 --> 02:34:01,800
Speaker 1: people who are managed years are like pretty popular at

2699
02:34:01,840 --> 02:34:04,200
Speaker 1: least to some extents, like are popular and people don't

2700
02:34:04,240 --> 02:34:08,120
Speaker 1: like really hate them. And this means that, you know,

2701
02:34:09,240 --> 02:34:12,040
Speaker 1: because there's all of this stuff that makes the Chinese

2702
02:34:12,040 --> 02:34:15,720
Speaker 1: factories different from like the other systems, and also because

2703
02:34:15,760 --> 02:34:19,280
Speaker 1: of like structural stuff in Maoism that I mean, I

2704
02:34:19,360 --> 02:34:23,080
Speaker 1: could talk about that, but I don't like talking about Maoism.

2705
02:34:23,800 --> 02:34:26,560
Speaker 1: But basically the product of this is that like you

2706
02:34:26,720 --> 02:34:28,680
Speaker 1: have in China during this period, a lot of demands

2707
02:34:28,720 --> 02:34:31,600
Speaker 1: for democracy, but they're really they're not they're not tied

2708
02:34:31,640 --> 02:34:34,520
Speaker 1: to the workplace at all. They're they're they're mostly like

2709
02:34:34,640 --> 02:34:37,320
Speaker 1: political demands for like democracy in the party or stuff

2710
02:34:37,320 --> 02:34:41,440
Speaker 1: like that. And that means, like you know, at least

2711
02:34:41,480 --> 02:34:45,640
Speaker 1: in the cities, this system like kind of works okayish

2712
02:34:45,840 --> 02:34:49,080
Speaker 1: until the Cultural Revolution where everything falls apart. And this

2713
02:34:49,280 --> 02:34:51,120
Speaker 1: means that it is at long last time for me

2714
02:34:51,200 --> 02:34:54,520
Speaker 1: to do the cultural revolution rant, which is something I

2715
02:34:54,600 --> 02:35:00,640
Speaker 1: have been planning for, Like, yeah, I excited about this.

2716
02:35:00,720 --> 02:35:04,120
Speaker 1: I've been waiting for an excuse and I finally have one. Okay,

2717
02:35:04,160 --> 02:35:06,600
Speaker 1: So the cultural revolution rant is that everyone gets the

2718
02:35:06,640 --> 02:35:11,680
Speaker 1: cultural revolution completely wrong, Like everyone every like it's like

2719
02:35:12,440 --> 02:35:14,840
Speaker 1: it's it's one of the rare events where like it's

2720
02:35:14,879 --> 02:35:17,840
Speaker 1: misinterpreted in like exactly the same way by both people

2721
02:35:17,879 --> 02:35:20,840
Speaker 1: who support it and the people who oppose it. Um

2722
02:35:21,000 --> 02:35:23,280
Speaker 1: And Okay, the first thing to understand about this, right

2723
02:35:23,360 --> 02:35:28,280
Speaker 1: is like Okay, So the the initial the very very

2724
02:35:28,320 --> 02:35:32,240
Speaker 1: beginning of the culture revolution, like it's basically a bunch

2725
02:35:32,280 --> 02:35:36,760
Speaker 1: of like teenagers kind of like it's like middle schoolers essentially,

2726
02:35:37,520 --> 02:35:43,680
Speaker 1: and they're attacking these they're attacking like other kids at

2727
02:35:43,720 --> 02:35:47,080
Speaker 1: their school. And these kids are kids who have what's

2728
02:35:47,120 --> 02:35:50,760
Speaker 1: called a black blood background, like black blood, which means

2729
02:35:50,840 --> 02:35:53,000
Speaker 1: that like they're they're the children of people who were

2730
02:35:53,080 --> 02:35:57,440
Speaker 1: from like quote unquote bad class backgrounds. And this is

2731
02:35:57,480 --> 02:35:59,400
Speaker 1: really weird for a number of reasons. One because you

2732
02:35:59,480 --> 02:36:01,640
Speaker 1: have you have a sort of like a pseudo class

2733
02:36:01,680 --> 02:36:04,880
Speaker 1: system based on like who your parents were, right, you

2734
02:36:04,920 --> 02:36:06,720
Speaker 1: have people who have red blood who had like good

2735
02:36:06,800 --> 02:36:08,959
Speaker 1: class backgrounds, like your parents are workers, or your parents

2736
02:36:09,240 --> 02:36:11,640
Speaker 1: worked with the Party or something. And then you have

2737
02:36:11,680 --> 02:36:14,240
Speaker 1: people who are from like bad class backgrounds quote unquote,

2738
02:36:14,240 --> 02:36:17,160
Speaker 1: who like are persecuted and like, okay, like I don't

2739
02:36:17,200 --> 02:36:19,760
Speaker 1: really care that much if you're like persecuting like a

2740
02:36:19,840 --> 02:36:22,640
Speaker 1: Shanghai oligarch who like collaborated with the French and Japanese

2741
02:36:22,640 --> 02:36:26,000
Speaker 1: imperialists or whatever. But like a this extends to like

2742
02:36:26,160 --> 02:36:27,640
Speaker 1: the children of these people, and a lot of the

2743
02:36:27,720 --> 02:36:30,680
Speaker 1: children these people weren't even alive when their parents were

2744
02:36:30,800 --> 02:36:33,920
Speaker 1: like you know, like doing stuff that was bad. And

2745
02:36:34,040 --> 02:36:36,480
Speaker 1: the other thing is that like the term bad class

2746
02:36:36,520 --> 02:36:39,000
Speaker 1: background this is really loose. Like I I know people

2747
02:36:39,160 --> 02:36:42,400
Speaker 1: whose families were declared like declared like black class backgrounds,

2748
02:36:42,400 --> 02:36:44,160
Speaker 1: who have black blood and like you know, they're they

2749
02:36:44,240 --> 02:36:46,760
Speaker 1: weren't allowed to hold in the government position. And the

2750
02:36:46,840 --> 02:36:48,640
Speaker 1: reason that this happened to them was that her dad

2751
02:36:48,720 --> 02:36:52,640
Speaker 1: had made bird feeders before the revolution and they considered

2752
02:36:52,680 --> 02:36:55,880
Speaker 1: that like petite bourgeois. And it's like this is like

2753
02:36:55,959 --> 02:36:57,840
Speaker 1: this is like like what, like what what are you doing?

2754
02:36:57,959 --> 02:37:00,959
Speaker 1: Like you you you reproduced, like you've turned class into

2755
02:37:01,040 --> 02:37:03,760
Speaker 1: like a pseudo race thing that's like her like you

2756
02:37:03,879 --> 02:37:07,200
Speaker 1: like inherit from your parents, even though like their parents

2757
02:37:07,280 --> 02:37:10,800
Speaker 1: don't own property anymore. Because it's it's really bizarre and

2758
02:37:10,920 --> 02:37:13,800
Speaker 1: and and what's what's happening here is the kids from

2759
02:37:13,840 --> 02:37:16,120
Speaker 1: the red class backgrounds are are are you know, they're

2760
02:37:16,160 --> 02:37:18,120
Speaker 1: they're the kids of the new of the new Chinese elite,

2761
02:37:18,800 --> 02:37:22,040
Speaker 1: and they're just like picking on attacking the kids who

2762
02:37:22,080 --> 02:37:25,280
Speaker 1: are like now this this sort of like like my

2763
02:37:25,440 --> 02:37:28,680
Speaker 1: minority class. And so what it amounts to at the

2764
02:37:28,720 --> 02:37:30,400
Speaker 1: beginning of this is a bunch of privileged rich kids

2765
02:37:30,400 --> 02:37:32,920
Speaker 1: who are like attacking the bunch of kids who are

2766
02:37:32,920 --> 02:37:34,800
Speaker 1: being persecuted for stuff. It's like not their fault at all.

2767
02:37:36,160 --> 02:37:38,840
Speaker 1: And you know, part and the other, the other part

2768
02:37:38,879 --> 02:37:40,000
Speaker 1: of this, like this is the part of the people.

2769
02:37:40,000 --> 02:37:41,560
Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, it's like Mao is trying to like

2770
02:37:41,600 --> 02:37:44,119
Speaker 1: play power game inside the party blah blah blah blah blah.

2771
02:37:44,840 --> 02:37:47,440
Speaker 1: But you know, things get more and more chaotic, and

2772
02:37:47,560 --> 02:37:49,560
Speaker 1: you get you get circuiting his attacks on like CCP,

2773
02:37:49,680 --> 02:37:52,280
Speaker 1: bereaucrats and cadres and stuff, because ma was trying to

2774
02:37:52,400 --> 02:37:54,600
Speaker 1: like male was trying to solidify his place in the

2775
02:37:54,640 --> 02:37:56,840
Speaker 1: party and he's blah blah blah. There's other stuff that's happening.

2776
02:37:57,440 --> 02:38:00,400
Speaker 1: Um but then it gets really interesting. Um. So, so

2777
02:38:00,600 --> 02:38:04,000
Speaker 1: this starts in six right, and at the very beginning

2778
02:38:04,000 --> 02:38:06,920
Speaker 1: of six seven, there's something there's something called the January Storm,

2779
02:38:07,760 --> 02:38:10,680
Speaker 1: which is where a bunch of rebel workers just seize

2780
02:38:10,680 --> 02:38:12,800
Speaker 1: control of Shanghai and like they run the party out,

2781
02:38:12,879 --> 02:38:14,280
Speaker 1: they run the other they run I think they run

2782
02:38:14,320 --> 02:38:17,840
Speaker 1: the army out too, and you know, and now like

2783
02:38:18,160 --> 02:38:21,200
Speaker 1: they they control the city of Shanghai. And this is

2784
02:38:21,240 --> 02:38:24,040
Speaker 1: like an oh funk moment from Mao because you know,

2785
02:38:24,400 --> 02:38:26,640
Speaker 1: now he has to like deal with this city that

2786
02:38:26,760 --> 02:38:28,520
Speaker 1: has been taking over by its own working class. And

2787
02:38:28,600 --> 02:38:31,600
Speaker 1: I found this this incredible line from Joe and Lai

2788
02:38:31,720 --> 02:38:33,200
Speaker 1: who's having a meeting with Mao and they're trying to

2789
02:38:33,200 --> 02:38:37,080
Speaker 1: figure out what to do about the fact that like this, this, this,

2790
02:38:37,640 --> 02:38:40,440
Speaker 1: like that Shanghai has been seized by by these workers

2791
02:38:40,520 --> 02:38:44,080
Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna read this. When asked whether the

2792
02:38:44,160 --> 02:38:47,040
Speaker 1: new leadership should be elected from the bottom up, Joel

2793
02:38:47,240 --> 02:38:51,520
Speaker 1: replied bluntly that quote, anarchism is bound to develop if

2794
02:38:51,560 --> 02:38:54,760
Speaker 1: we immediately implement direct elections of the Paris Commune type.

2795
02:38:57,520 --> 02:38:59,800
Speaker 1: And I think this is like this is this really incredible,

2796
02:39:00,040 --> 02:39:03,040
Speaker 1: like like the thing you can find right, because it's like, okay, well,

2797
02:39:03,080 --> 02:39:08,160
Speaker 1: there's two things that can happen here. One is either like, okay,

2798
02:39:08,720 --> 02:39:11,040
Speaker 1: you you you you give these people democracy and the

2799
02:39:11,080 --> 02:39:15,600
Speaker 1: ability to vote, right, and Joe and Lyon Matt look

2800
02:39:15,600 --> 02:39:16,959
Speaker 1: at this, and you're like, that would be anarchist if

2801
02:39:17,000 --> 02:39:18,120
Speaker 1: we can't do that. And the second thing is you

2802
02:39:18,200 --> 02:39:21,360
Speaker 1: don't do that, and you oppressed them, and they take

2803
02:39:21,400 --> 02:39:24,880
Speaker 1: the second line, and you know, okay, like it takes

2804
02:39:24,959 --> 02:39:27,360
Speaker 1: them a bit to get this ramped up, right, It

2805
02:39:27,360 --> 02:39:28,600
Speaker 1: takes them a bit to get the sort of kind

2806
02:39:28,600 --> 02:39:30,520
Speaker 1: of revolution thing they're doing to like stop all of

2807
02:39:30,600 --> 02:39:34,600
Speaker 1: this rebel stuff that they've they've started to to get

2808
02:39:34,640 --> 02:39:39,880
Speaker 1: it takes them about a year. But but by the

2809
02:39:40,000 --> 02:39:42,879
Speaker 1: students and the workers who had like you know, done

2810
02:39:43,040 --> 02:39:45,560
Speaker 1: done this sort of uprising stuff so are getting slaughtered,

2811
02:39:45,920 --> 02:39:50,760
Speaker 1: like just mastered, killed on an unimaginable scale. Uh. This

2812
02:39:50,920 --> 02:39:53,240
Speaker 1: is this is where everyone gets the Culture Revolution completely wrong,

2813
02:39:53,280 --> 02:39:56,000
Speaker 1: because everyone the entire memory of the Cultural Revolution is

2814
02:39:56,040 --> 02:39:58,040
Speaker 1: from basically the first two years of it, right, which

2815
02:39:58,080 --> 02:40:00,280
Speaker 1: is like all the stuff about like like you know,

2816
02:40:00,400 --> 02:40:02,600
Speaker 1: like professors being marched out onto the street and dunce

2817
02:40:02,680 --> 02:40:06,160
Speaker 1: caps and like students like humiliating the professors and like

2818
02:40:06,760 --> 02:40:10,199
Speaker 1: like party officials being like marched around with like placards

2819
02:40:10,280 --> 02:40:12,640
Speaker 1: on them, and like people like that's something like the

2820
02:40:12,840 --> 02:40:14,920
Speaker 1: chaos of the revolution. Like that's that's stuff everyone remembers.

2821
02:40:15,560 --> 02:40:19,160
Speaker 1: That's the first two years of this. There's still like

2822
02:40:19,240 --> 02:40:21,720
Speaker 1: I mean, you can are like there's there's there's the

2823
02:40:21,720 --> 02:40:24,200
Speaker 1: short the short quote unquote short culture Revolution, which is

2824
02:40:24,240 --> 02:40:26,199
Speaker 1: like the high point of the activity goes from nineteen

2825
02:40:26,440 --> 02:40:29,960
Speaker 1: six nine, and then there's like a longer one that

2826
02:40:30,040 --> 02:40:32,320
Speaker 1: goes to like the death of Mao, depending on how

2827
02:40:32,320 --> 02:40:35,920
Speaker 1: you want to count it. But almost all of the

2828
02:40:36,040 --> 02:40:39,240
Speaker 1: actual violence in this period happens in this in in

2829
02:40:39,440 --> 02:40:42,120
Speaker 1: in the third phase, which is the so the first

2830
02:40:42,120 --> 02:40:44,320
Speaker 1: phase of the Didicial uprising, and then the rebel groups

2831
02:40:44,320 --> 02:40:47,000
Speaker 1: start fighting each other. But then phase three is when

2832
02:40:47,040 --> 02:40:50,920
Speaker 1: the state like cracks down on like start starts like

2833
02:40:51,320 --> 02:40:54,600
Speaker 1: starts trying to crush this like rebel student factions. And

2834
02:40:54,800 --> 02:40:58,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to read from Walder who did ah, so

2835
02:40:59,000 --> 02:41:01,560
Speaker 1: is the guy in Walder who who went to He

2836
02:41:01,640 --> 02:41:03,360
Speaker 1: did a bunch of work in the Chinese archives, which

2837
02:41:03,360 --> 02:41:06,320
Speaker 1: he like went and like found the death tolls. And

2838
02:41:06,640 --> 02:41:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read like he like he go hells a

2839
02:41:09,120 --> 02:41:10,720
Speaker 1: bunch of archives. He goes to a bunch of state archives,

2840
02:41:10,760 --> 02:41:12,680
Speaker 1: and he like like tracks down the death certificates and

2841
02:41:12,920 --> 02:41:16,280
Speaker 1: tracks down like who died where? And this this is

2842
02:41:16,320 --> 02:41:19,240
Speaker 1: what he wrote about it. More than three four of

2843
02:41:19,320 --> 02:41:22,240
Speaker 1: all documented deaths and local animals are due to the

2844
02:41:22,280 --> 02:41:24,920
Speaker 1: actions of authorities in the in this third phase, and

2845
02:41:24,959 --> 02:41:28,080
Speaker 1: then more than of those persecuted for alleged political crimes.

2846
02:41:29,040 --> 02:41:33,240
Speaker 1: So what are he's saying here is that seventy five

2847
02:41:33,320 --> 02:41:36,520
Speaker 1: percent of all of the deaths the entire Culture Revolution

2848
02:41:37,120 --> 02:41:39,720
Speaker 1: weren't done by like the revolution parts. They were done

2849
02:41:39,720 --> 02:41:42,119
Speaker 1: by the state, murdering the workers faction, the rebel factions.

2850
02:41:43,160 --> 02:41:47,640
Speaker 1: And not only that, nine of of the actual political

2851
02:41:47,680 --> 02:41:50,840
Speaker 1: persecution was done by the states and not by the rebels.

2852
02:41:51,760 --> 02:41:53,720
Speaker 1: And when when when when you actually look at what

2853
02:41:53,800 --> 02:41:57,120
Speaker 1: this means, Like this means everything everything anyone ever talks

2854
02:41:57,120 --> 02:41:59,920
Speaker 1: about the Culture Revolution is completely wrong. It wasn't the

2855
02:42:00,120 --> 02:42:01,680
Speaker 1: the thing had happened to the Cultural Revolution. Wasn't that

2856
02:42:01,720 --> 02:42:03,480
Speaker 1: sort of student radicalism got out of control and they

2857
02:42:03,480 --> 02:42:06,080
Speaker 1: started killing everyone that preaches all this violence. The thing

2858
02:42:06,120 --> 02:42:08,840
Speaker 1: that actually happens is that there's a student like uprising, right,

2859
02:42:09,600 --> 02:42:13,520
Speaker 1: But what happens is that the sort of conservative and

2860
02:42:13,560 --> 02:42:19,279
Speaker 1: state factions just slaughter them. And I Walt Walter estimates

2861
02:42:19,280 --> 02:42:21,640
Speaker 1: that the total number of people dead, it's somewhere between

2862
02:42:21,680 --> 02:42:24,720
Speaker 1: one point one and one point six million people. And again,

2863
02:42:24,840 --> 02:42:27,320
Speaker 1: like seventy five percent, and I think it's actually slightly

2864
02:42:27,400 --> 02:42:29,800
Speaker 1: higher from that, like percent of the people who were

2865
02:42:29,879 --> 02:42:32,720
Speaker 1: killed in this are killed by the state. And you

2866
02:42:32,800 --> 02:42:36,640
Speaker 1: know this, this has an enormous effect on I mean

2867
02:42:36,760 --> 02:42:38,879
Speaker 1: just everything that happens in China and Chinese society from

2868
02:42:38,879 --> 02:42:43,120
Speaker 1: then on, because on the one hand, the popular memory

2869
02:42:43,360 --> 02:42:45,720
Speaker 1: of the Cultural Revolution persists as this thing that was, like,

2870
02:42:45,800 --> 02:42:48,320
Speaker 1: this is what happens if you like if people outside

2871
02:42:48,320 --> 02:42:50,400
Speaker 1: the party and like students in radicals like start like

2872
02:42:50,520 --> 02:42:52,280
Speaker 1: making trouble, is that you get all these people dead.

2873
02:42:53,200 --> 02:42:55,720
Speaker 1: But then you know, you have the people inside the

2874
02:42:55,760 --> 02:42:58,160
Speaker 1: state who like know how many people they had to

2875
02:42:58,280 --> 02:43:00,240
Speaker 1: kill in order to hold on to power, right, they

2876
02:43:00,320 --> 02:43:04,000
Speaker 1: kill they kill probably more people than like that, you know,

2877
02:43:04,040 --> 02:43:07,200
Speaker 1: they're there's there's there's a very famous massacre of like

2878
02:43:07,720 --> 02:43:10,240
Speaker 1: communists or like suspected communist Indonesia that it doesn't get

2879
02:43:10,280 --> 02:43:12,320
Speaker 1: called a genocide because it was technically on political lines,

2880
02:43:12,400 --> 02:43:14,560
Speaker 1: but like it was one of the worst anti communist

2881
02:43:14,560 --> 02:43:16,440
Speaker 1: massacres in history, and they killed more people from that

2882
02:43:17,200 --> 02:43:22,480
Speaker 1: during this period, and that like that level of violence

2883
02:43:22,640 --> 02:43:25,600
Speaker 1: and the fact that the people running the state understand

2884
02:43:25,640 --> 02:43:27,040
Speaker 1: what they had to do, it means you get you

2885
02:43:27,120 --> 02:43:30,960
Speaker 1: get an elite that's incredibly paranoid about like anything that

2886
02:43:31,120 --> 02:43:34,400
Speaker 1: like smells like organizing happening outside the party. And the

2887
02:43:34,440 --> 02:43:38,039
Speaker 1: other thing happens is that like the most radical students

2888
02:43:38,080 --> 02:43:41,400
Speaker 1: and workers of this period, just get that they're all dead, right,

2889
02:43:41,520 --> 02:43:44,360
Speaker 1: they killed, they killed like they they killed like a

2890
02:43:44,440 --> 02:43:47,960
Speaker 1: million people the you know, for for for for for

2891
02:43:48,080 --> 02:43:51,000
Speaker 1: every one person who got killed, there's about nineteen people

2892
02:43:51,040 --> 02:43:52,720
Speaker 1: who were like persecuted in a lot of way. And

2893
02:43:52,800 --> 02:43:54,360
Speaker 1: that's like a lot of people are tortured. A lot

2894
02:43:54,400 --> 02:43:58,200
Speaker 1: of these people are like sent to prisons. They're like

2895
02:43:59,600 --> 02:44:02,359
Speaker 1: like really horrible stuff happens to people. And this process

2896
02:44:02,480 --> 02:44:05,360
Speaker 1: keeps going like through through the seven Like there there's

2897
02:44:05,360 --> 02:44:08,320
Speaker 1: a huge spike in like state killings nineteen seventy, and

2898
02:44:08,640 --> 02:44:11,440
Speaker 1: by by the end of the seventies, like anything that's

2899
02:44:11,440 --> 02:44:15,040
Speaker 1: sort of like could have cohered into into like a

2900
02:44:15,120 --> 02:44:17,279
Speaker 1: movement that like wants democraty in the workplace, for example,

2901
02:44:17,320 --> 02:44:20,760
Speaker 1: it's just gone. Because all of all of the radicals,

2902
02:44:21,360 --> 02:44:25,840
Speaker 1: like and anyone, anyone who wanted anyone who wanted democraty

2903
02:44:25,879 --> 02:44:27,280
Speaker 1: in factory, any of the people who were like even

2904
02:44:27,360 --> 02:44:29,280
Speaker 1: sort of like just like sort of rebellious, like these

2905
02:44:29,320 --> 02:44:33,880
Speaker 1: people have all been killed. And the consequence of this

2906
02:44:34,280 --> 02:44:36,720
Speaker 1: is that throughout the through the eighties, he gets politics

2907
02:44:36,800 --> 02:44:40,000
Speaker 1: that's driven by this like sort of like intellectual liberal

2908
02:44:40,160 --> 02:44:44,720
Speaker 1: like liberal democratic politics that ignores completely ignores work lass entirely,

2909
02:44:45,000 --> 02:44:48,600
Speaker 1: and you know, and these these people start to take

2910
02:44:48,640 --> 02:44:52,440
Speaker 1: power and you get Dansha paying well, I think I

2911
02:44:52,480 --> 02:44:54,200
Speaker 1: think it's it's like right before he takes power, but

2912
02:44:54,840 --> 02:44:57,840
Speaker 1: Danjo ping wise up implementing the one child policy, which

2913
02:44:57,879 --> 02:45:00,640
Speaker 1: is this like incredibly draconian and really success still attempts

2914
02:45:00,680 --> 02:45:04,200
Speaker 1: just like re established the states like patriarchal control over

2915
02:45:04,240 --> 02:45:06,840
Speaker 1: the household and strips like hundreds of millions of women

2916
02:45:07,040 --> 02:45:10,119
Speaker 1: from like like of of of autonomy over their own bodies,

2917
02:45:11,160 --> 02:45:14,160
Speaker 1: and you know, and and and and and it really

2918
02:45:14,280 --> 02:45:17,080
Speaker 1: looks like through through the through through through like the

2919
02:45:17,160 --> 02:45:19,280
Speaker 1: late seventies and the eighties, it looks like like the

2920
02:45:19,400 --> 02:45:22,160
Speaker 1: Chinese ruling classes succeeded, right like they finally destroyed that

2921
02:45:22,240 --> 02:45:25,440
Speaker 1: they finally destroyed like any opposition to them. But then

2922
02:45:26,760 --> 02:45:32,840
Speaker 1: you know, things get very weird, which is that Setiman happens,

2923
02:45:33,840 --> 02:45:38,280
Speaker 1: and you know, but by by nine, like the whole

2924
02:45:38,360 --> 02:45:41,400
Speaker 1: like like as as a rule, like in general everywhere

2925
02:45:41,440 --> 02:45:43,040
Speaker 1: the sort of classical workers neo meant that was like

2926
02:45:43,080 --> 02:45:47,120
Speaker 1: at demanding tomoxy the factory, like they're basically done and

2927
02:45:47,560 --> 02:45:49,840
Speaker 1: so they're they're unable to sort of do their own revolutions.

2928
02:45:49,879 --> 02:45:51,160
Speaker 1: Now the only thing they can do is sort of

2929
02:45:51,200 --> 02:45:54,600
Speaker 1: like latch onto other stuff. But the problem that the

2930
02:45:54,680 --> 02:45:58,680
Speaker 1: party has is that so they've had a lot of

2931
02:45:58,800 --> 02:46:00,840
Speaker 1: measures in place to to make sure that you've never

2932
02:46:00,879 --> 02:46:03,119
Speaker 1: got these kind of movements in China, and they kind

2933
02:46:03,120 --> 02:46:07,320
Speaker 1: of worked. But when it went through the nighties, like

2934
02:46:07,400 --> 02:46:09,680
Speaker 1: China starts implementing a market economy, right, they start, they

2935
02:46:09,720 --> 02:46:12,360
Speaker 1: started they started like cutting this the welfare state. They

2936
02:46:12,440 --> 02:46:16,320
Speaker 1: start like destroying the sort of like limited control that

2937
02:46:16,360 --> 02:46:18,600
Speaker 1: works has had in the factories, and they kind of

2938
02:46:18,680 --> 02:46:21,120
Speaker 1: like unknowingly reproduced the conditions that have been producing these

2939
02:46:21,160 --> 02:46:24,440
Speaker 1: revolutions in every other country. And you know, as this

2940
02:46:24,520 --> 02:46:27,480
Speaker 1: massive inflation wave hits, they turned China into this powdern

2941
02:46:27,560 --> 02:46:32,119
Speaker 1: keg and this, you know, and this combined with sort

2942
02:46:32,160 --> 02:46:37,800
Speaker 1: of like the liberal democratic students moving gets you this

2943
02:46:38,000 --> 02:46:42,280
Speaker 1: really interesting and weird ideology that these workers happen. I'm

2944
02:46:42,280 --> 02:46:45,520
Speaker 1: going to read it from from an interview with with

2945
02:46:45,720 --> 02:46:49,160
Speaker 1: with one of the workers, who was that gentleman, Why

2946
02:46:49,240 --> 02:46:51,480
Speaker 1: do a lot of workers agree with democracy and freedom

2947
02:46:51,920 --> 02:46:55,080
Speaker 1: in the workshops? Does what the workers say count or

2948
02:46:55,120 --> 02:46:59,840
Speaker 1: what leader says? We later talked about it in the factory,

2949
02:47:00,040 --> 02:47:03,400
Speaker 1: the dictatorship. Sorry, in the factory, the director is a dictator.

2950
02:47:04,360 --> 02:47:07,039
Speaker 1: What one man says goes. If you view the state

2951
02:47:07,120 --> 02:47:10,119
Speaker 1: through the factory, it's about the same one man rule.

2952
02:47:10,480 --> 02:47:12,920
Speaker 1: Our objective is not very high. We just want workers

2953
02:47:13,000 --> 02:47:17,240
Speaker 1: to have their own independent organizations in work units. It's

2954
02:47:17,320 --> 02:47:19,840
Speaker 1: personal rule. For example, if I want to change jobs,

2955
02:47:19,879 --> 02:47:22,360
Speaker 1: the bus company foreman won't let me go. I ought

2956
02:47:22,400 --> 02:47:24,600
Speaker 1: to go home at five at five pm, but he

2957
02:47:24,680 --> 02:47:26,600
Speaker 1: tells me to work over time for two hours and

2958
02:47:26,680 --> 02:47:29,720
Speaker 1: if I don't cut my bonus, this is a personal rule.

2959
02:47:30,280 --> 02:47:32,560
Speaker 1: A factory should have a system. If workers wants to

2960
02:47:32,640 --> 02:47:34,520
Speaker 1: change jobs, they ought to have a system of rules

2961
02:47:34,560 --> 02:47:36,800
Speaker 1: to decide how to do it. Also, these rules should

2962
02:47:36,800 --> 02:47:39,240
Speaker 1: be decided upon by everyone and then afterwards anyone who

2963
02:47:39,320 --> 02:47:41,800
Speaker 1: violates it will be punished according to the rules. This

2964
02:47:42,000 --> 02:47:44,080
Speaker 1: is rule by law. Now, we don't have this kind

2965
02:47:44,120 --> 02:47:50,520
Speaker 1: of legal system. And Okay, that's a really like I

2966
02:47:50,560 --> 02:47:52,360
Speaker 1: don't know, I think it's a really interesting sort of

2967
02:47:52,480 --> 02:47:54,800
Speaker 1: like fusion of a whole bunch of stuff, right because

2968
02:47:54,800 --> 02:47:58,360
Speaker 1: on the one hand, like the sort of like ruling

2969
02:47:58,440 --> 02:48:00,720
Speaker 1: discourse that's happening the things as you're talking about it

2970
02:48:00,720 --> 02:48:02,400
Speaker 1: is like that we need the democracy, read the rule

2971
02:48:02,440 --> 02:48:06,200
Speaker 1: of law. And but you know, the workers in these

2972
02:48:06,240 --> 02:48:08,920
Speaker 1: factories are looking at are looking at like the situation

2973
02:48:08,959 --> 02:48:12,600
Speaker 1: they're facing, and they're like, ha, we don't have a

2974
02:48:12,640 --> 02:48:15,400
Speaker 1: democracy like here either, right, And so you get this,

2975
02:48:15,480 --> 02:48:18,720
Speaker 1: you get what's a really conservative framing of the sort

2976
02:48:18,760 --> 02:48:21,120
Speaker 1: of a very sort of very classical like critique of

2977
02:48:21,160 --> 02:48:23,280
Speaker 1: woman rule in the factory that has been happening for like,

2978
02:48:24,200 --> 02:48:27,680
Speaker 1: you know, like a hundred years. But what she's just

2979
02:48:27,760 --> 02:48:31,560
Speaker 1: think about this is that like any actual attempt to

2980
02:48:31,640 --> 02:48:34,600
Speaker 1: like do this right, get gets you to workers control,

2981
02:48:34,840 --> 02:48:39,400
Speaker 1: like democratic workers control in the factory. And as Walder

2982
02:48:39,440 --> 02:48:42,600
Speaker 1: who well, Walder also wrote another like he's a guy

2983
02:48:42,640 --> 02:48:44,320
Speaker 1: who went and interviewed a bunch of the people who

2984
02:48:44,360 --> 02:48:46,160
Speaker 1: have been a workers who have been involved with this

2985
02:48:47,000 --> 02:48:56,000
Speaker 1: and as as they point out, like this unlike really

2986
02:48:56,120 --> 02:49:00,040
Speaker 1: like any other time in Chinese history, like the it

2987
02:49:01,520 --> 02:49:03,400
Speaker 1: the people who are part of like the Beijing Autonomous

2988
02:49:03,560 --> 02:49:07,360
Speaker 1: Workers Autonomous Federation, are you know that they don't they

2989
02:49:07,360 --> 02:49:09,120
Speaker 1: don't have an intellectual class like this. These are these

2990
02:49:09,160 --> 02:49:11,800
Speaker 1: are just a bunch of workers and they have very

2991
02:49:11,840 --> 02:49:14,480
Speaker 1: little connection like they don't they they have very little

2992
02:49:14,480 --> 02:49:16,720
Speaker 1: like political connections, right, like beforehand, like to to the

2993
02:49:16,760 --> 02:49:18,640
Speaker 1: lberal circles are just sort of hearing what they're reading.

2994
02:49:19,360 --> 02:49:22,000
Speaker 1: And this is this means like what you have here

2995
02:49:22,200 --> 02:49:23,960
Speaker 1: is like it's not like an intellectraal like this is.

2996
02:49:24,040 --> 02:49:27,480
Speaker 1: This is just a bunch of workers and for you know,

2997
02:49:27,560 --> 02:49:30,320
Speaker 1: for for for like one final time, their instinct when

2998
02:49:30,320 --> 02:49:32,800
Speaker 1: they when the revolution sort of like starts, is the

2999
02:49:32,840 --> 02:49:36,600
Speaker 1: demand democracy in the factory. And this demand, like above

3000
02:49:36,680 --> 02:49:40,040
Speaker 1: all others, is completely politically unacceptable. And you know, and

3001
02:49:40,120 --> 02:49:43,000
Speaker 1: when when the army markers on Beijing, it's it's these

3002
02:49:43,080 --> 02:49:46,720
Speaker 1: workers that they wipe out, and they wipe them out

3003
02:49:46,840 --> 02:49:50,000
Speaker 1: so thoroughly that the fact that this is what these

3004
02:49:50,000 --> 02:49:53,000
Speaker 1: people were fighting for is it's it's scrubbed for the

3005
02:49:53,080 --> 02:49:55,560
Speaker 1: record of the CCP, it's scrubbed like the protomocracy move

3006
02:49:55,600 --> 02:49:57,920
Speaker 1: but doesn't remember it, even though their entire thing is memory.

3007
02:49:58,760 --> 02:50:04,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, and this this ensures that the meeting of

3008
02:50:04,120 --> 02:50:05,880
Speaker 1: these actual events, what the people were fighting for, what

3009
02:50:05,959 --> 02:50:08,320
Speaker 1: they were trying to do, has been almost completely lost.

3010
02:50:11,480 --> 02:50:14,440
Speaker 1: And I think at this point we can finally ask

3011
02:50:14,959 --> 02:50:19,320
Speaker 1: what what what actually was tianaman Um And in some

3012
02:50:19,520 --> 02:50:22,640
Speaker 1: sense in the in the Chinese context itself it's a

3013
02:50:22,680 --> 02:50:26,320
Speaker 1: transition between two different Chinese working classes. These protests are

3014
02:50:26,320 --> 02:50:29,040
Speaker 1: sort of like this is the last like political sort

3015
02:50:29,080 --> 02:50:31,320
Speaker 1: of like mobilization of like the of the old Chinese

3016
02:50:31,320 --> 02:50:33,040
Speaker 1: working class, which has been these people who had been

3017
02:50:33,040 --> 02:50:36,000
Speaker 1: in the cities, who had been like they had been

3018
02:50:36,000 --> 02:50:38,800
Speaker 1: the beneficiaries of this old sort of like socialist period

3019
02:50:38,840 --> 02:50:46,440
Speaker 1: welfare state, and these people in in the street around channemen,

3020
02:50:46,440 --> 02:50:48,120
Speaker 1: they mount the last attack of the of the classical

3021
02:50:48,160 --> 02:50:54,440
Speaker 1: workers studments. And when they lose, this entire class like this,

3022
02:50:54,560 --> 02:50:57,880
Speaker 1: this this entire urban working class that had been around

3023
02:50:58,400 --> 02:51:00,320
Speaker 1: since like the twenties, that have been sort of the

3024
02:51:00,959 --> 02:51:04,000
Speaker 1: driver of Chinese radical politics, that had been like that

3025
02:51:04,120 --> 02:51:07,440
Speaker 1: have been have been fighting and striking for like seventy

3026
02:51:07,600 --> 02:51:13,680
Speaker 1: eighty years. They they're they're gone. They're completely destroyed, and

3027
02:51:14,480 --> 02:51:16,920
Speaker 1: over the course of the economical structure in the nineties

3028
02:51:16,959 --> 02:51:19,280
Speaker 1: there they ceased to exist as a class, and they're

3029
02:51:19,320 --> 02:51:21,920
Speaker 1: replaced by a new Chinese working class, which is drawn

3030
02:51:22,040 --> 02:51:25,720
Speaker 1: from sort of these rural and sort of semi urban

3031
02:51:25,959 --> 02:51:28,279
Speaker 1: underclasses of the old social system who are like dragged

3032
02:51:28,320 --> 02:51:30,640
Speaker 1: into who are dragging the cities from from their villages,

3033
02:51:30,720 --> 02:51:33,760
Speaker 1: from their towns, and who now fill Actually, well I

3034
02:51:33,760 --> 02:51:36,480
Speaker 1: don't I don't know what the numbers are today because

3035
02:51:36,560 --> 02:51:39,800
Speaker 1: it's weird because of COVID. But like there were two

3036
02:51:40,160 --> 02:51:44,000
Speaker 1: and seventy seven billion of these people of this enormous

3037
02:51:44,080 --> 02:51:48,640
Speaker 1: market worker like force who formed the backbone of like

3038
02:51:48,720 --> 02:51:53,440
Speaker 1: the entire Chinese working class. And these people who they

3039
02:51:53,520 --> 02:51:57,160
Speaker 1: have rural house registrations, and this means that they don't

3040
02:51:57,160 --> 02:51:58,880
Speaker 1: get any of the benefits, like the sort of like

3041
02:51:58,959 --> 02:52:00,840
Speaker 1: welfare benefits that you would get from living in a city.

3042
02:52:02,360 --> 02:52:05,880
Speaker 1: And this means that they're you know, the they they

3043
02:52:05,959 --> 02:52:10,080
Speaker 1: constitute like an entirely new class of of workers. And

3044
02:52:10,160 --> 02:52:12,960
Speaker 1: instead of you know, like whatever sort of privileges that

3045
02:52:13,080 --> 02:52:16,199
Speaker 1: had been like carved out by the old working class,

3046
02:52:17,040 --> 02:52:21,400
Speaker 1: this one gets nothing. And the other thing that they

3047
02:52:21,480 --> 02:52:23,920
Speaker 1: get is this entire raft to sort of capitalist ideology

3048
02:52:23,959 --> 02:52:26,320
Speaker 1: that's based into like every aspect of the workplace culture.

3049
02:52:26,440 --> 02:52:28,280
Speaker 1: This this is massive attempt in China to get people

3050
02:52:28,320 --> 02:52:32,320
Speaker 1: to buy homes and you know, the like when where

3051
02:52:32,360 --> 02:52:34,480
Speaker 1: the old working class could at least like positive the

3052
02:52:34,560 --> 02:52:36,680
Speaker 1: factory is like a place where you could have democracy,

3053
02:52:36,800 --> 02:52:40,199
Speaker 1: where like life could be improved by like different controlled factories,

3054
02:52:40,600 --> 02:52:42,760
Speaker 1: Like this new working class like the thing that they

3055
02:52:42,840 --> 02:52:44,720
Speaker 1: want the most is to leave the factory and become

3056
02:52:44,760 --> 02:52:48,240
Speaker 1: a business owner. And you know, like this this probably

3057
02:52:48,280 --> 02:52:50,400
Speaker 1: sounds familiar to like us, right, like this is this

3058
02:52:50,520 --> 02:52:53,760
Speaker 1: is the old joke about like about the about the

3059
02:52:53,760 --> 02:52:55,760
Speaker 1: American working class, which is that everyone sees themselves as

3060
02:52:55,760 --> 02:52:58,680
Speaker 1: temporarily temporarily embarrassed millionaires and like, yeah, you know, in

3061
02:52:58,879 --> 02:53:01,840
Speaker 1: modern China, it's like yeah, okay, it's like people consider

3062
02:53:01,879 --> 02:53:05,960
Speaker 1: themselves to be like temporarily embarrassed small business owners and

3063
02:53:07,040 --> 02:53:12,640
Speaker 1: this stuff. This, this this ideological self conception of like

3064
02:53:12,840 --> 02:53:14,199
Speaker 1: I'm going to work in the factory, that I'm gonna

3065
02:53:14,200 --> 02:53:16,880
Speaker 1: becme a some business owner is completely inimical to the

3066
02:53:16,920 --> 02:53:20,240
Speaker 1: formation of like the classical or reservement. And there hasn't

3067
02:53:20,320 --> 02:53:24,480
Speaker 1: been that kind of formation in China sense. And this

3068
02:53:24,720 --> 02:53:27,280
Speaker 1: this is not really unique thing, right that the death

3069
02:53:27,320 --> 02:53:29,320
Speaker 1: of that workers movement has seen a sort of like

3070
02:53:29,400 --> 02:53:32,200
Speaker 1: complete and total collapse of the demand for like democratic

3071
02:53:32,240 --> 02:53:37,200
Speaker 1: self management like everywhere across the entire world. And you know,

3072
02:53:37,440 --> 02:53:40,640
Speaker 1: incredibly stubborn lee like the working class like refuses to

3073
02:53:40,680 --> 02:53:45,200
Speaker 1: sort of cohare itself in the factory. And so in

3074
02:53:45,320 --> 02:53:47,600
Speaker 1: this sense, China is really just sort of late to

3075
02:53:47,640 --> 02:53:52,040
Speaker 1: the game. They they they got slightly early, they got

3076
02:53:52,080 --> 02:53:53,920
Speaker 1: they got slightly later to the point that we're at now.

3077
02:53:54,959 --> 02:53:57,920
Speaker 1: You said there was gonna be a happier ending that

3078
02:53:58,000 --> 02:54:00,880
Speaker 1: they had. The happy ending was last episode. Uh, this

3079
02:54:01,080 --> 02:54:04,240
Speaker 1: episode is this episode ending is really depressing? Well, I mean, okay,

3080
02:54:04,240 --> 02:54:06,600
Speaker 1: they're there, there, there there, Okay, there's a slightly less

3081
02:54:06,600 --> 02:54:09,880
Speaker 1: depressing note kind of Okay. The thing that's less depressing

3082
02:54:09,920 --> 02:54:12,680
Speaker 1: here is that for my entire literally my entire lifetime

3083
02:54:13,040 --> 02:54:15,320
Speaker 1: has been the US learning from one economic lapse so

3084
02:54:15,360 --> 02:54:19,840
Speaker 1: another and the world, the world like the international economic system.

3085
02:54:20,120 --> 02:54:22,200
Speaker 1: Like I think I was born in like the middle

3086
02:54:22,400 --> 02:54:26,520
Speaker 1: of like the dot com collapse, and then I got

3087
02:54:26,560 --> 02:54:30,320
Speaker 1: two eight, and then like there's been a bunch of

3088
02:54:30,400 --> 02:54:35,080
Speaker 1: economic classes in the last like three years, and you know,

3089
02:54:37,440 --> 02:54:40,440
Speaker 1: the whole systems like learned from crisis to crisis to crisis.

3090
02:54:40,560 --> 02:54:43,840
Speaker 1: And that means that there's been an incredible, just like

3091
02:54:44,440 --> 02:54:48,480
Speaker 1: a rapidly increasing number of revolutions everywhere, even though the

3092
02:54:48,560 --> 02:54:50,480
Speaker 1: sort of like darker gore of the factory like has

3093
02:54:50,480 --> 02:54:52,879
Speaker 1: ceased to be this thing that like creates the working

3094
02:54:53,000 --> 02:54:56,240
Speaker 1: like the identity of the working class. And this means

3095
02:54:56,360 --> 02:54:58,720
Speaker 1: that you know, Okay, so in order to have some

3096
02:54:58,840 --> 02:55:00,840
Speaker 1: kind of mass move but you needs some kind of

3097
02:55:00,879 --> 02:55:04,920
Speaker 1: collective identity to to mobilize around. And you know, if

3098
02:55:05,000 --> 02:55:06,760
Speaker 1: if you can't make this in the factory, the place

3099
02:55:06,760 --> 02:55:08,400
Speaker 1: where it's going to be made instead is the street.

3100
02:55:09,920 --> 02:55:12,800
Speaker 1: And this means in the last you know, like twenty

3101
02:55:12,879 --> 02:55:17,160
Speaker 1: yees years, like with with without the sort of positive

3102
02:55:17,160 --> 02:55:20,279
Speaker 1: identity in the workplace to to to to hear itself around,

3103
02:55:21,640 --> 02:55:25,400
Speaker 1: workers are really only able to sort of mobilize on

3104
02:55:25,520 --> 02:55:28,040
Speaker 1: a mass basis, like indirect opposition to a threat that

3105
02:55:28,080 --> 02:55:30,680
Speaker 1: can that can that can confront like everyone at the

3106
02:55:30,720 --> 02:55:32,160
Speaker 1: same time. And this is the only thing I can do.

3107
02:55:32,240 --> 02:55:34,800
Speaker 1: This is really the state. And you know, the state

3108
02:55:34,840 --> 02:55:36,959
Speaker 1: has the ability to to increase the price that basic

3109
02:55:36,959 --> 02:55:39,879
Speaker 1: commodities and slash welfare benefits, and that becomes the only

3110
02:55:39,920 --> 02:55:42,760
Speaker 1: available enemy. And so yeah, if if you look at

3111
02:55:42,800 --> 02:55:44,760
Speaker 1: what revolutions have been in the last twenty years, it's

3112
02:55:44,760 --> 02:55:47,080
Speaker 1: a constant fight against the police, because fighting the police

3113
02:55:47,160 --> 02:55:48,640
Speaker 1: is the only thing that can that can allow you

3114
02:55:48,720 --> 02:55:50,800
Speaker 1: to create a new social identity, like a sort of

3115
02:55:50,800 --> 02:55:54,000
Speaker 1: sort of collective identification. And you know, and so this

3116
02:55:54,120 --> 02:55:57,560
Speaker 1: means that collected like modern revolts. Like everything we've seen

3117
02:55:57,600 --> 02:56:00,240
Speaker 1: over the last like four years. The four him that

3118
02:56:00,280 --> 02:56:03,160
Speaker 1: it takes is mass street movements and you know, continuous

3119
02:56:03,200 --> 02:56:07,280
Speaker 1: confrontation with the police. And you get to literally see

3120
02:56:07,360 --> 02:56:11,120
Speaker 1: this with with occupy, right. Occupied was originally like the

3121
02:56:12,600 --> 02:56:15,280
Speaker 1: like the slogan occupy was about the Dargentina in factory

3122
02:56:15,280 --> 02:56:20,200
Speaker 1: occupations and in two one, but then you know that stops,

3123
02:56:20,240 --> 02:56:21,560
Speaker 1: like that's the end, like just one like that that

3124
02:56:21,640 --> 02:56:23,160
Speaker 1: that's that's the end of the whole cycle. There's there's

3125
02:56:23,160 --> 02:56:26,520
Speaker 1: no more factory occupations actual astitude. You get one in

3126
02:56:26,600 --> 02:56:28,800
Speaker 1: Bosnia has A Govia, which is funny because it's like

3127
02:56:29,560 --> 02:56:32,000
Speaker 1: they occupy a bunch of factories, but like they don't

3128
02:56:32,040 --> 02:56:33,520
Speaker 1: know what to do with them, and so you get

3129
02:56:33,640 --> 02:56:36,080
Speaker 1: just like a regular like occupy, like like in the

3130
02:56:36,240 --> 02:56:38,080
Speaker 1: sort of like score occupation you'd get in like New

3131
02:56:38,160 --> 02:56:40,880
Speaker 1: York or whatever, where everyone's sort of like sitting in

3132
02:56:40,879 --> 02:56:43,040
Speaker 1: a circle talking about stuff, but it's happening in a factory.

3133
02:56:43,920 --> 02:56:45,760
Speaker 1: But but they're not like trying to run production, they're

3134
02:56:45,800 --> 02:56:46,960
Speaker 1: not trying to do any of that stuff. They're just

3135
02:56:47,000 --> 02:56:52,400
Speaker 1: sort of like they're in the factory. Isn't is no

3136
02:56:52,480 --> 02:56:56,000
Speaker 1: longer this sort of like space of like creation and

3137
02:56:56,080 --> 02:56:58,600
Speaker 1: possibility that could be turned into something new. It's just

3138
02:56:58,680 --> 02:57:02,440
Speaker 1: like a place where you go that's like indistinguishable from

3139
02:57:02,480 --> 02:57:05,560
Speaker 1: like a square. And you know, the last ten years

3140
02:57:05,600 --> 02:57:07,520
Speaker 1: it's like people people. Originally it was like it doesn't

3141
02:57:07,560 --> 02:57:11,320
Speaker 1: left right, everyone's everyone's occupying squares. But you know, by

3142
02:57:11,400 --> 02:57:13,160
Speaker 1: by about a dozen fourteen, people have figured out that

3143
02:57:13,200 --> 02:57:15,640
Speaker 1: you can't, like it's it's almost impossible to hold a

3144
02:57:15,680 --> 02:57:18,000
Speaker 1: square if the police attempt to run you out. And

3145
02:57:18,080 --> 02:57:19,960
Speaker 1: so this gets your place with running street flights with

3146
02:57:20,000 --> 02:57:24,280
Speaker 1: the police. But this, you know, this places everyone who's

3147
02:57:24,280 --> 02:57:26,680
Speaker 1: trying to do this in this incredibly dangerous bind because

3148
02:57:27,560 --> 02:57:31,520
Speaker 1: you know, the like the old workers councils were able

3149
02:57:31,560 --> 02:57:33,760
Speaker 1: to bring down states, like largely they got crushed by

3150
02:57:34,160 --> 02:57:36,360
Speaker 1: outside militaries, but they were able to bring down states

3151
02:57:36,440 --> 02:57:39,520
Speaker 1: because you know, there is an enormous amount of power

3152
02:57:39,600 --> 02:57:42,880
Speaker 1: in being able to control production. But the problem is

3153
02:57:42,959 --> 02:57:45,040
Speaker 1: that like you know, if you're in a square, right, like,

3154
02:57:45,160 --> 02:57:48,520
Speaker 1: you don't have the ability to do that. And with

3155
02:57:48,640 --> 02:57:51,120
Speaker 1: without the sort of without the factory occupations alongside them,

3156
02:57:51,200 --> 02:57:52,879
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of general strikes in the last

3157
02:57:52,920 --> 02:57:55,119
Speaker 1: four years there's want of peruse one in France, there's

3158
02:57:55,160 --> 02:57:58,000
Speaker 1: someone in Hong Kong and Soudan, and every single one

3159
02:57:58,040 --> 02:58:02,200
Speaker 1: of them has been crushed. But you know, but but

3160
02:58:02,360 --> 02:58:05,240
Speaker 1: this is a real problem, right, because the current labor

3161
02:58:05,320 --> 02:58:08,119
Speaker 1: conditions aren't going to produce another way of factory occupations,

3162
02:58:09,240 --> 02:58:12,280
Speaker 1: and so the way forward for anyone who, like you know,

3163
02:58:12,600 --> 02:58:15,080
Speaker 1: wants to have a democracy in the workplace is completely unclear.

3164
02:58:15,360 --> 02:58:18,840
Speaker 1: And I think I think that's the actual legacy of Tianamen.

3165
02:58:19,360 --> 02:58:23,400
Speaker 1: The workers who are assembled outside Tianamen Square had already

3166
02:58:23,480 --> 02:58:27,320
Speaker 1: left their factories, and you know, for for for all

3167
02:58:27,400 --> 02:58:29,720
Speaker 1: that they spoke the language of the old workers movements, right,

3168
02:58:29,720 --> 02:58:32,119
Speaker 1: they spoke a democracy in the factory and one man rule.

3169
02:58:33,120 --> 02:58:34,880
Speaker 1: They stood and fought and died like we do in

3170
02:58:34,959 --> 02:58:38,080
Speaker 1: the streets. There's this bridge between sort of the classical

3171
02:58:38,120 --> 02:58:42,720
Speaker 1: workers movements and us, and you know, they face the

3172
02:58:42,760 --> 02:58:45,480
Speaker 1: same revolutionary crisis that we face, the crisis of Popula

3173
02:58:45,560 --> 02:58:49,920
Speaker 1: and Palestine, Columbia, Iran and Myanmar, Hong Kong. Of this,

3174
02:58:50,120 --> 02:58:52,360
Speaker 1: this crisis of victory that's just beyond the horizon can't

3175
02:58:52,360 --> 02:58:54,840
Speaker 1: be grasped. You know, I don't think the people at

3176
02:58:54,879 --> 02:58:57,800
Speaker 1: Tienamen have any answers to give us like, I don't

3177
02:58:57,840 --> 02:59:00,600
Speaker 1: think they do. I think they rent. They headlong into

3178
02:59:00,600 --> 02:59:03,320
Speaker 1: the crisis that we ran into, and they all died. Yeah.

3179
02:59:03,440 --> 02:59:07,080
Speaker 1: I think expecting answers from the dead is demanding too

3180
02:59:07,200 --> 02:59:10,200
Speaker 1: much of those who before and after us died finding

3181
02:59:10,240 --> 02:59:13,160
Speaker 1: for liberation and all we can really do now is

3182
02:59:13,240 --> 02:59:15,560
Speaker 1: find our own way when, with the names of the

3183
02:59:15,600 --> 02:59:25,440
Speaker 1: dead in our lips, build the world they died fighting for. Hey,

3184
02:59:25,560 --> 02:59:28,680
Speaker 1: we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3185
02:59:28,720 --> 02:59:31,280
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe. It Could

3186
02:59:31,320 --> 02:59:33,640
Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For

3187
02:59:33,760 --> 02:59:36,480
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

3188
02:59:36,560 --> 02:59:38,480
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

3189
02:59:38,560 --> 02:59:41,240
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

3190
02:59:41,280 --> 02:59:44,040
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here,

3191
02:59:44,160 --> 02:59:47,560
Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources.

3192
02:59:47,800 --> 02:59:48,560
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.