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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Maddie Soto just thirteen years old.

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Speaker 2: Her body found tonight was a home pregnancy test missing.

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Speaker 1: I meansy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 3: I sent them to sleep upstairs in the bathroom of

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Speaker 3: the guest bedroom, but I could get a good night sleep.

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Speaker 3: I think we need to get you a lawyer. But

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Speaker 3: that was me assuming that you guys had the wrong guy,

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Speaker 3: not that he had done all this to her. I

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Speaker 3: don't know why I wasn't thinking him. I believed the

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Speaker 3: factual stuff, but I didn't want to believe that he

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Speaker 3: had done anything equal to her.

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Speaker 4: Would you decide the self is fine?

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Speaker 3: It's not fine. I look back now, I'm just like

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Speaker 3: he was flying, he was baking.

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Speaker 4: You worse pregnant? Have you ever found a pregnancy test

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Speaker 4: at home?

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Speaker 3: I have two underneath the kitchen to the bathroom, saying,

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Speaker 3: but I have to sleep if there's the there?

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Speaker 5: What color shirt and pants was she last sheen wearing

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Speaker 5: hold on? Let me ask.

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Speaker 3: So we'll kloch sure, and what was she lost wearing.

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Speaker 6: Hold on?

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Speaker 5: We're finding out, okay?

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Speaker 7: And then how long has it been those since you

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Speaker 7: guys have last seen her.

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Speaker 8: Since this morning.

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Speaker 5: She was dropped off at school this morning and apparently

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Speaker 5: she never showed up.

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Speaker 3: We called everyone we knew.

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Speaker 2: No one has seen her pregnancy test, missing mommy hasn't

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Speaker 2: checked her daughter, missing then found dead. Joining me an

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Speaker 2: all star panel, But first to Hannah Mackenzie joining us

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Speaker 2: anchor and investigative reporter Fox thirty five Orlando.

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Speaker 1: Hannah, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Could you explain to the non legal eagles out there

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Speaker 2: that don't know who that was talking?

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Speaker 1: Who is Jennifer Soto?

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Speaker 7: So Jennifer Soto is Maddy Soto's mother, And what is

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Speaker 7: so alarming about all of these hours worth of investigative

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Speaker 7: evidence and interviews that we've been seeing is this is

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Speaker 7: the first time we've actually heard from Jennifer's Soto. And

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Speaker 7: to hear her answering the investigators questions with really little

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Speaker 7: to no information for the first time coming out of

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Speaker 7: her mouth is quite.

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Speaker 1: Alarming, guys.

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Speaker 2: In addition to Hannah Mackenzie joining us from Fox thirty

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Speaker 2: five Orlando, is renown psychoanalysts joining us out of Beverly

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Speaker 2: Hills doctor Bethany Marshall, author of deal Breakers. You can

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Speaker 2: see her now on peacock Doctor, Bethany, I'm just a

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Speaker 2: trial lawyer. You're the psychoanalyst. But I'm pretty sure I've

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Speaker 2: heard translation. I've combed over the transcript hundreds of times,

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Speaker 2: Mom saying, you know, I saw the pictures you showed

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Speaker 2: me of him raping my daughter, but you know I

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Speaker 2: couldn't believe he would do something evil kill her.

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Speaker 5: Nancy, this mother is not bonded to her daughter. She

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Speaker 5: uses her daughter like bait to hold on to her boyfriend.

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Speaker 5: This mother is preoccupied with the boyfriend. Did you hear

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Speaker 5: her talk to the investigators about well he lied to

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Speaker 5: other people.

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Speaker 8: I never thought he would lie to me.

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Speaker 5: She was more worried about her own betrayal than what

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Speaker 5: had happened with her daughter. And one more thing, Nancy.

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Speaker 5: You know, when children go missing and you interview the parents,

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Speaker 5: there's two things you look for. You look for whether

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Speaker 5: or not they're bonded with the child, whether or not

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Speaker 5: they show concern. In this case, Jennifer shows absolutely no concern.

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Speaker 5: And then you also look for details, credible details when

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Speaker 5: the child was last seen, what they were wearing. Why

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Speaker 5: there's so many details missing. I mean, she didn't know

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Speaker 5: what her daughter was wearing her boyfriend apparently left the

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Speaker 5: house super early Monday morning to take the little girl

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Speaker 5: to school. Well, I think we know what this point.

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Speaker 5: The little girl was deceased, but the mother seems to

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Speaker 5: have no understanding about that.

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Speaker 2: Well wait, pause, pause, doctor Bethany Marshall, Mattie's Soto wasn't

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Speaker 2: just deceased. She was strapped in to mommy's boyfriend's car

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Speaker 2: in a seatbelt, dead, propped up to look like she

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Speaker 2: was alive because he knew he had to drive past

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Speaker 2: an apartment cam okay, and he would be MANI cams

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Speaker 2: and he would be spotted. So let me get the

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Speaker 2: visual through to you. She's dead, a thirteen year old

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Speaker 2: little girl propped up like she's alive like this, okay,

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Speaker 2: So you take it from there, and Mom's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you just showed me. How many was it, Jackie hold On,

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Speaker 2: Hannah McKenzie. How many thousands of images were found on

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Speaker 2: boyfriend's phone. I would say sex related, but they're actually

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Speaker 2: of him videoing himself raping Maddie.

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Speaker 1: The thirteen year old little girl.

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Speaker 7: How many there are photos and videos countless on his

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Speaker 7: phone and on one us B that was seized thanks

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Speaker 7: to his father turning it in. There were thirty five

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Speaker 7: thousand images of child sexual contraction.

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Speaker 5: And none of those were on his phone.

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Speaker 2: Start from where you said twenty five thousand, right, just

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Speaker 2: start right there.

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Speaker 7: What on Stephen Stern's USB that his father turned into police?

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Speaker 7: They found thirty five thousand videos and photos of child

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Speaker 7: pornography that was on one USB.

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Speaker 2: You know, Hannah McKenzie, I learned in court that silence

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Speaker 2: can be just as powerful as hearing some lawyer babble

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Speaker 2: on and on.

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Speaker 1: See my earplayed a trick on me. I thought you

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Speaker 1: said twenty five You just.

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Speaker 2: Said thirty five thirty five thousand videos and or steal

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Speaker 2: images of what child pornography?

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Speaker 7: And that was just on one us B. That's not

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Speaker 7: even including the photos and videos he had of Maddie

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Speaker 7: on his cell.

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Speaker 2: Phone, photos and videos of what her blowing out the

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Speaker 2: birthday candles, her in front of the Christmas tree, her

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Speaker 2: on her birthday, photos and videos of what Hannah mackenzie.

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Speaker 8: Those photos and videos.

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Speaker 7: We haven't even been able to air the content that

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Speaker 7: was released because reading these files and these documents that

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Speaker 7: have been released by police and the Sheriff's office, they're

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Speaker 7: hard to even read. The details involved include him, as

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Speaker 7: you said, raping her. Oftentimes she appeared to be asleep.

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Speaker 7: He was, you know, inserting his penis in her mouth,

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Speaker 7: inserting his penis in her genital areas many of those times,

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Speaker 7: again while she appeared to be asleep or under a blanket.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany, isn't it true that it is a common

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Speaker 2: tactic of child molestation victims to pretend they're asleep in

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Speaker 2: the hopes that that will make them a luster go away,

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Speaker 2: excuse me, the rapist go away.

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Speaker 1: They just pretend to sleep.

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Speaker 2: And then they continue in that somnambulant state or pretend state,

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Speaker 2: to remove themselves from what's really happening to their body.

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Speaker 5: Yes, Nancy, it starts out as just simply playing dead.

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Speaker 5: Then the trauma is so severe that they begin to dissociate,

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Speaker 5: to separate from themselves, and in the final stage the

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Speaker 5: sexual abuse survivors describe that as children, they would float

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Speaker 5: up to the ceiling and look down on the scene

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Speaker 5: as they were.

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Speaker 8: Being raped and traded.

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Speaker 5: The sad thing to Nancy, his mother was in the

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Speaker 5: bed at the same time that all of this was happening,

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Speaker 5: and we don't yet know what her involvement was in this.

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Speaker 5: I think this guy was such a such a prolific offender,

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Speaker 5: as intrafamilial offenders are on average day offend three hundred

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Speaker 5: and forty four times against each child because they have

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Speaker 5: access to them, as opposed to somebody at school or

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Speaker 5: in a different environment.

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Speaker 8: But I would.

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Speaker 5: Imagine he was trying to have sex with his girlfriend

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Speaker 5: with Jennifer in front of the little girl, just in

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Speaker 5: the hopes that he would seduce the little girl or

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Speaker 5: excite her. That's how disturbed this guy really is.

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Speaker 2: I want you to hear Jennifer Soto in her own words.

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Speaker 1: Listen, I said, you guys, I needed a night fleet.

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Speaker 3: I need to take my mend. I sent them to

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Speaker 3: fleet upstairs in the beds from the guest bedroom so

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Speaker 3: that I could get a good night fleet. Interested that

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Speaker 3: we all see together in the scene.

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Speaker 8: Back together, but not the easiest person to see Blitz.

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Speaker 3: She rolls around, punches you kicks.

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Speaker 1: Robin Drake is joining me.

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Speaker 2: Behavior expert, And I've just got to tell you this.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times I see talking has, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: what are they saying? That doesn't even make any sense? Drake,

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Speaker 2: behavior expert, Why former FBI special agent, wait for it,

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Speaker 2: chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavior Analysis Program and author

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Speaker 2: of Okay, You've got a spy book, Unbreakable Alliances, A

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Speaker 2: spy of recruiters, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: But the one I like that's available Locktober twenty.

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Speaker 2: Eight is Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual

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Speaker 2: for behavior prediction. Now, Robin, thank you for being with

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Speaker 2: us and Bethany weigh in on this, and I can't

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Speaker 2: wait to get to the defense attorney Philip Debay. But Robin,

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Speaker 2: I have looked and looked and watched and watched, even

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Speaker 2: stopped it and looked at the mother, Jennifer Soto, who

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Speaker 2: now is saying, upon asking, didn't even put it out there.

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Speaker 2: Do you have any pregnancy tests at home? She goes, huh, Why, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I haven't even checked to see if those are missing,

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Speaker 2: raising the specter that this child could be pregnant, because

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Speaker 2: we all know that once a pregnancy occurs, the woman's

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Speaker 2: life is in so much more danger, even in a

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Speaker 2: marital setting, much less this setting, because if she had

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Speaker 2: become pregnant, then it would no longer be a secret

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Speaker 2: and he would be out it. Now, what would he

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Speaker 2: do to keep that from happening, Drake, because Soto's his

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Speaker 2: meal ticket. He lives between her house and his mother's

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Speaker 2: basement plays. So did you watch her? Did you see

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Speaker 2: her behavior as she's talking about sending her daughter off

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Speaker 2: to sleep with her boyfriend, and when the sheriff goes, uh.

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Speaker 1: You got any pregnancy tests at home? She didn't miss

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Speaker 1: a beat.

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Speaker 6: You know, Doctor Bethany had everything so accurately on this one.

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Speaker 6: And that is not only was a daughter trying to

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Speaker 6: survive by disassociating, but so is the mother. This is

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Speaker 6: the most abhorrent case I think we've ever covered. Nancy.

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Speaker 6: It's just befuddling about how strongly she compartmentalized this is

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Speaker 6: Jennifer and disassociate herself from the reality, and every time

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Speaker 6: she was confronted with a truth of fact, her reality

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Speaker 6: kept crashing down. And I guarantee you this is not

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Speaker 6: his first rodeo doing this horrendous acts to children. Because

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Speaker 6: he was so comfortable with not only abusing this girl

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Speaker 6: and raping this girl, but he seemed to be so

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Speaker 6: comfortable with killing her. It's just amazing, and so is Jennifer.

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Speaker 6: She seems so comfortable in this lie that she's lived,

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Speaker 6: that she can be surrounded by horrendousness and seeks to dissociating,

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Speaker 6: compartmentalize away from it so effectively it's horrendous.

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Speaker 2: Philip Dubay joining me, renowned attorney with the La County

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Speaker 2: Public Defender's Office.

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Speaker 1: You know what that means. He's in court all the time,

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Speaker 1: just like.

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Speaker 2: A prosecutor is in court all the time, a defense

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Speaker 2: attorney is in court, especially a PAYDA public defender like

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Speaker 2: twenty four seven three sixty five. Philip Dubay, what do

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Speaker 2: you think about that affect of mommy?

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Speaker 1: Did you see her? Have you watched the video? She's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's pregnancy, Tessy. What happened to them?

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Speaker 9: I think in Jen's mind that her little angel is

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Speaker 9: everybody's angel, and that she would assume that the entire

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Speaker 9: world is her daughter's guardian angel, and she was just

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Speaker 9: so unsuspecting and unwary of what was happening in her

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Speaker 9: little Walter Knitting mind.

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Speaker 1: Bethany helped me out.

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Speaker 5: In fifty percent of all cases where children are molested,

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Speaker 5: there's what we call a bystander in the household, a teenager,

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Speaker 5: a cousin, somebody who sees everything but says nothing. In

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Speaker 5: a fifth of all those cases, the bystander is the mother. Okay,

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Speaker 5: this is the mother here. One of the reasons mothers

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Speaker 5: do this, besides the fact that they're not bonded with

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Speaker 5: their children, is that they're afraid of financial repercussions. But

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Speaker 5: Jennifer has a job, she has a car, she drives,

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Speaker 5: she decorates the house. She doesn't have those usual motivations

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Speaker 5: that one would be a bystander or look the other way.

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Speaker 5: I think she was taking pleasure in this. I think

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Speaker 5: she was desperate to hold on to her boyfriend at

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Speaker 5: any cost. I think she's selfish, self referential. All she

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Speaker 5: talks about in those interviews is herself. This little girl

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Speaker 5: was a thing, and it an object to be used,

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Speaker 5: a plaything, to put between her and her book friend,

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Speaker 5: to keep him in an aroused state so he would

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Speaker 5: not leave her. She was used, plain and simple, by

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Speaker 5: her own mother, the one, the one person who's supposed

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Speaker 5: to protect.

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Speaker 1: Her, bombshell revealed in a newly released police interview. Although

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Speaker 1: murdered thirteen year old's mother was this little girl.

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Speaker 2: Pregnant mom Jen Soto under questioning on this very topic.

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Speaker 1: Listen, you can go even worse.

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Speaker 4: She's pregnant. Thanks.

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Speaker 8: That's what question of last night led me to believe.

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Speaker 8: When we start talking about.

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Speaker 4: Her period, I was told that her and her friend,

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Speaker 4: granted male, never had a period, but that somebody found

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Speaker 4: it weird that they were no longer in the same cycle.

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Speaker 4: Could be different because she's a teenage girl. Could be

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Speaker 4: that she missed her gerier and you were found a

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Speaker 4: pregnancy test at home that wasn't yours.

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Speaker 3: I have two underneath the kitchen the bathroom sink, but

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen if.

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Speaker 2: There's a lear in Doctor Mathady Marshall, renowned psycho analysts.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to hear your analysis of what we just

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Speaker 2: saw on her.

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Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, this mother's voice is so vacuous, and by

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Speaker 5: that I mean empty. It's like she can't even come

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Speaker 5: up with emotions about this. It doesn't have that dissociated, disconnected, traumatized.

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Speaker 8: Sound to it.

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Speaker 5: It has the sound of a woman who's never cared

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Speaker 5: about her daughter at all, and all of a sudden

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Speaker 5: she has to pretend to care about her daughter, making

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Speaker 5: stereotyped motions like putting her hand in her forehead, moving

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Speaker 5: around as if she's sad.

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Speaker 8: But she's not sad at all.

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Speaker 5: You know, Nancy, there's only one reason to have a

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Speaker 5: pregnancy test, is it's if you're anticipating you might get pregnant.

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Speaker 5: I know she's not somebody who's been charged in this case,

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Speaker 5: but on some level, it's like she was participating in

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Speaker 5: a crime all along and making sure.

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Speaker 8: That her boyfriend wouldn't get caught.

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Speaker 5: The only thing between her and the boyfriend getting caught

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Speaker 5: were these pregnancy tests.

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Speaker 2: I noticed doctor Bethany when he starts talking about the

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Speaker 2: pregnancy test as if that's a normal topic of conversation.

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Speaker 2: Is your teen girl taking pregnancy tests? The mom who

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Speaker 2: has her arms closed in front of her, she's switching legs,

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Speaker 2: she tries to cross them casually and then puts them

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Speaker 2: in kind of a pretzel as he's asking about the

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Speaker 2: pregnancy test. But what does that mean to you as

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Speaker 2: you observe.

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Speaker 5: Her, Nancy, what I see in this video when she

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Speaker 5: kind of puts herself into a pretzel, she's trying to

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Speaker 5: act younger, regressed, more innocent than she really is.

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Speaker 8: This is what little kids do. They sit cross legged,

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Speaker 8: they twist.

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Speaker 5: Their legs around, they twirl their hair, they do all

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Speaker 5: kinds of things, kind of a classic maneuver. I think

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Speaker 5: behaviorally is to act younger and more innocent than you

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Speaker 5: really are.

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Speaker 2: I thought Robin drink that was a sign of being

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Speaker 2: on the defense.

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Speaker 6: It can be, but normally, anytime you see a deviation

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Speaker 6: from what we normally see in someone's baseline, it indicates

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Speaker 6: a change of thought. It could be going back to

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Speaker 6: awar innocent time in life. It could be blocking, it

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Speaker 6: could be stress. And that's what I'm guessing here, is

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Speaker 6: that this question caused stress and cause a change of

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Speaker 6: thought in her.

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Speaker 2: I'm just curious about how long this had been going on,

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Speaker 2: based on the videos and pictures Hannah McKenzie joining us

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Speaker 2: Fox thirty five, the assaults, rapes, lustations on her daughter

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Speaker 2: by her boyfriend had been going on since Maddie was

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Speaker 2: about nine years old.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean nine years old to thirteen. And you

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Speaker 7: got to remember she was a new thirteen year old.

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Speaker 7: Her birthday was just that previous week before she was

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Speaker 7: reported missing and also killed. So this was years worth

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Speaker 7: of sexual abuse that this little girl had to go through.

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Speaker 2: I want you to hear the entire panel how Jennifer

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Speaker 2: Soto keeps referring to herself and one of problems she's having.

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Speaker 2: And I also want to circle back to what she said,

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Speaker 2: Let's address this first. She says, that's what questions last

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Speaker 2: night led me to believe. When we started talking about

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Speaker 2: her period. Who was talking about her period? Hannah Mackenzie.

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Speaker 8: So this was.

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Speaker 7: Brought up multiple times in different interviews with law enforcement

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Speaker 7: with Jennifer, multiple times before the pregnancy test was even

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Speaker 7: brought up.

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Speaker 8: They were kept asking her.

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Speaker 7: About her cycle, about her period, and Jennifer is on

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Speaker 7: camera saying I tracked her period. I knew when she

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Speaker 7: was on her period. And the detective in the office

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Speaker 7: at the time said, well, did you notice any feminine

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Speaker 7: hygiene products being used in February? And Jennifer kind of

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Speaker 7: sits back for a second, kind of how you were

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Speaker 7: describing a shift in the body language again and says, no,

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Speaker 7: I didn't realize any feminine hygiene products were being used

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Speaker 7: in February.

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Speaker 5: I didn't notice that.

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Speaker 1: Online.

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Speaker 2: There has been a lot of speculation about this particular

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Speaker 2: photo Mom's online speculating that here thirteen year old Mattie

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Speaker 2: looks pregnant now based off what was found on a

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Speaker 2: cell phone with graphic videos of the defendant Stefon Stearns

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Speaker 2: raping the daughter. I also don't hear the police mention

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Speaker 2: anything about a condom in any of those videos, suggesting

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Speaker 2: they were having well not unprotected sex. He was raping

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Speaker 2: her without a condom. The police were able to see

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Speaker 2: a marking on his penis consistent with other videos in images,

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Speaker 2: which means he was having unprotected sex. Other moms point

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Speaker 2: to dark colored circles underneath her eyes that were not

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Speaker 2: there before. I'm just wondering what does all this mean.

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Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace to you, Doctor Bethany Marshall

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Speaker 2: bombshell documents revealing how steph On Sturms allegedly killed the

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Speaker 2: teen dubbed her body. My question is, once a pregnancy occurs,

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Speaker 2: does that raise the likelihood of violence?

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Speaker 5: Nancy, It most definitely does, and primary are there are

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Speaker 5: two reasons for this actually, One is that the father

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Speaker 5: does not want the responsibility of a baby, and the

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Speaker 5: other is the father is often envious of the unborn baby,

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Speaker 5: not wanting to share the attention with the baby. But

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Speaker 5: in this case, of course, we know it's so much

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Speaker 5: more sinister. That baby is evidence evidence that he's been

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Speaker 5: abusing this little girl. I don't think he's trying to

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Speaker 5: hide a fragrancy from Jennifer. By the way, because she

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Speaker 5: knows about those pregnancy tests, he has to hide it

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Speaker 5: from the public and the police.

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Speaker 1: He outly cried in front of the camera too.

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Speaker 3: So he's face stop crying.

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Speaker 4: Are you saying that now or I'm.

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Speaker 8: Saying that now?

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Speaker 3: I didn't think at the time.

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Speaker 8: At the time, I thought he was truly heartbroken.

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Speaker 3: And not that he had done all the year to her.

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Speaker 3: I look back now, I'm just like he was lying,

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Speaker 3: he was baking. What else has he been lying to

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Speaker 3: me about. I know he's like a master Byron manipulator

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Speaker 3: because he's done he's done it to his parents, and

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Speaker 3: he's told me and shown me.

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Speaker 1: The lies he's done to his parents. But I don't

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Speaker 1: know why I never thought, not me to try.

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Speaker 2: A lawyer joining us out of La Philip Dubay. I

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Speaker 2: guess the defense is going to have that cost suppressed

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Speaker 2: at court because they don't want the jury to hear

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Soto calling Stephan Stearns a liar and a master manipulator,

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Speaker 2: even though she says it's true.

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Speaker 8: They're not going to need her.

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Speaker 9: Frankly, They've got plenty of evidence independent of Jen. All

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Speaker 9: they would really establish through Jen, if they even want

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Speaker 9: to call her to this band, is that they were

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Speaker 9: living together and maybe shared a bed together. But frankly,

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Speaker 9: I think they have plenty of evidence without her. But

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Speaker 9: let's assume that is the case they decide to put

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Speaker 9: her on. You know, everybody has problems within their relationships

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Speaker 9: independent of the children, and there is no playbook for

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Speaker 9: how we speak out and lash out a significant or

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Speaker 9: even our instinct in others. And to suggest that every couple,

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Speaker 9: every marriage is just lovey dovey, picture perfect and wonderful

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Speaker 9: would be frankly offensive to a jury, and it would

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Speaker 9: look like you're just trying to pin the whole thing

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Speaker 9: on her. So I think it could actually work to

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Speaker 9: her benefit and certainly to his detriment.

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Speaker 2: Wow, the cunning you display, the thinking that goes into

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Speaker 2: a defense strategy is amazing. The way you analyze that,

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Speaker 2: and you're like your Rumpel still skin. You take Hay

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Speaker 2: and you spin it out into defense gold.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Okay, guys, I want you to hear doctor Bethany Robin Drake,

401
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Speaker 2: how this is all about me me me me me, me,

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Speaker 2: me me me, me and me.

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Speaker 1: Listen. Are he ugly cried in.

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Speaker 2: Front of the camera too, so he's.

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Speaker 8: Big soop crying.

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Speaker 5: Are you saying that now or you I'm.

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Speaker 8: Saying that now?

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Speaker 3: I didn't think at the time. At the time, I

409
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Speaker 3: thought he was truly heartbroken and not that he had

410
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Speaker 3: done all this to her. I look back at it now,

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Speaker 3: I'm just like he was lying. He was thinking, what

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Speaker 3: else have you been lying to me about? I know

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Speaker 3: he's like a master Byron manipulator because he's he's done

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Speaker 3: it to his parents, and he's told me and shown

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Speaker 3: me he's done to his parents. But I don't know

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Speaker 3: why I never thought.

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Speaker 1: Not me, Bethany Drake. Is it just me? Am I

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Speaker 1: the crazy one?

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Speaker 2: But is she angry because he lied to her, not

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Speaker 2: that he raped her daughter for four years that we

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Speaker 2: know of and killed her you, Bethany Ladies, First.

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Speaker 5: Nancy, let me take it one level deeper. She's actually

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Speaker 5: subtly starting to turn on him. So it's all self

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Speaker 5: referential at first. Oh, he lied to me. I can't

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Speaker 5: believe he lied to me. Then she starts to paint

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Speaker 5: the picture of the master manipulator, and I think she's

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Speaker 5: starting to manipulate the investigators saying, Hey, he's not such

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Speaker 5: a nice guy. He lies to his parents. So this woman, Jennifer,

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Speaker 5: has the capacity for self protection. She has the capacity

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Speaker 5: to turn against her boyfriend when he doesn't please her,

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Speaker 5: and she wants to save her own skin for herself,

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Speaker 5: but she wouldn't do it for her daughter.

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Speaker 8: Do you see where I'm going with this?

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Speaker 5: She wants to protect herself, but she wouldn't protect her daughter.

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Speaker 5: It's not because she's passive. It's not because she doesn't

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Speaker 5: have a job and she's afraid of leaving him because

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Speaker 5: she has no money, or she's been blinded by love.

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Speaker 8: She only cares about herself.

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Speaker 5: That's what's evident in this segment that you're playing.

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Speaker 1: What about it, Robin.

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Speaker 6: Drake, Oh my gosh, Doctor Bethany is so spot on

442
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 6: with everything.

443
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: I'm just sitting here nodding the entire time.

444
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: And yeah, okay, Robin Drake, correct me if I'm wrong.

445
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: But didn't you run the behavioral science division at the FBI.

446
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: Let's see what this is here.

447
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: Robin Drake, Counterintelligence behavior Analysis program. Okay, this is not

448
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: an echo timer. Stop saying what she said.

449
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 6: But she's so good, So I'll add to it, and

450
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 6: that is in the me, me, me of her life.

451
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 6: And she even threw him under the bus. As doctor

452
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 6: Bethany was saying, she said that he was being heartbroken.

453
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?

454
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 6: We saw the videos of him being interviewed, and that's

455
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 6: why I say he never once deviated from his baseline

456
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 6: of just stoic blah, which means he's got a lot

457
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 6: of reps of doing this. He was not fearful of

458
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 6: being caught by her. Just like doctor Bethany was saying,

459
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 6: it was this, This entire thing looks extremely contrived, and

460
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 6: because she's in complete survival mode now, she sees herself

461
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 6: being threatened and she's thrown started starting to ponder the

462
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 6: idea of throwing him under the bus when you.

463
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: Guys showed me the picture of her. I believe the

464
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 3: sexual stuff, but I didn't want to believe that he

465
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 3: had done anything equal to her. I'm like, know, what

466
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: if she what if he did this stop buying? But

467
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: what if she's still missing out there? What if somebody

468
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 3: took her? I still wanted to believe his I believed him,

469
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 3: I believed his whole story. So I was just like,

470
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 3: I kept repeating that part. She's like, what if what

471
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 3: did she take I dropped off? What if she got abducted?

472
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 3: What if she's missing?

473
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: To Bethany, Doctor.

474
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 5: Bethany, did you just hear that this mother can't even

475
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 5: pretend to care about her daughter.

476
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: If she was really.

477
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 5: A good actor, she would have seen the pictures of

478
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 5: her boyfriend raping her daughter and saying, oh my god,

479
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 5: I can't believe, oh my god. She can't even work

480
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 5: up a crocodile tear.

481
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 8: She cannot. That's how.

482
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 5: Callous she is to her own daughter. She's not shocked

483
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 5: because she's been viewing her daughter being raped for so

484
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 5: many years. I don't think she even thinks it's evil

485
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 5: that her daughter's been killed. It could even be a

486
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 5: relief to her on some level that this whole thing

487
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 5: is over. She's using a very contrived word because she

488
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 5: is a lingering concern. She's making up concern, but she

489
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 5: can't even fake it, Nancy, because she doesn't know what

490
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 5: it's like.

491
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 2: I thought, doctor Bethany, you were going to say something

492
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 2: about one of your favorite words other than massio saticism

493
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: is narcissism, that it's all about me.

494
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: I wanted a.

495
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: Good night sleep. I needed to take my meds. I

496
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: had to get up for work. He lied to me.

497
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: He did this to me. I'm so disappointed. I knew

498
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: he was a liar.

499
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: I I me me. You haven't even mentioned narcissism.

500
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 8: Well, I would say narcissism steroid.

501
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: By the way, narcissism is named after Narcissus, for those

502
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: of you who have not been schooled by doctor Bethany,

503
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 2: who is a mythical person who happened to look into

504
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: the water and see his own image and fall in

505
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: love and then died staring at himself, fell into the

506
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: water and died. That's what where narcissism the word comes from.

507
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: So hit at Bethany, Well, so Nancy.

508
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 5: Also, narcissism is a spectrum disorder. So at the milder

509
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 5: end you have narcissism, and at the most extreme end

510
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 5: you have the psychopath antisocial sociopath psychopath. I would say

511
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 5: she's further up to scale towards antisocial personality disorder and

512
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 5: probably borderline personality disorder, because what you see with antisocial

513
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 5: one of the criteria is reckless disregard and lack of

514
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 5: concern for the rights and safety of others. Lying, conning, manipulativeness,

515
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 5: failure to pay back debts to society, promiscuity.

516
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 8: And you can see all of this in how she's

517
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 8: treating her daughter.

518
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 5: I think also the lack of empathy or remorse when

519
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 5: another person is hurt. Almost all mothers who are bystanders

520
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 5: when their children are being molested are not bonded with

521
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 5: their children.

522
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: There's no maternal bonding, Anthony. Can I tell you something,

523
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany. All day long until we got here, I

524
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: have been staring at the cell phone. Why have I

525
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: been staring at the cell phone? Because my daughter had

526
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: a test today. She secretly stayed up till almost one

527
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: o'clock studying, And my stomach has been like that all day.

528
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: How did she do? How did she do? I'm so worried.

529
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: I'm so worried about her about a test, a stupid

530
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: test that in the big scheme of things, doesn't even

531
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: matter at Hold on, Bethany, whole panel, watch this. Watch

532
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: the mom who is not charged with anything, who is

533
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: not a suspect, who is not a person of interest

534
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: in anything.

535
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 6: But you didn't know that, then then.

536
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 4: You offered a guy the police suspected, suspected of kidnap,

537
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 4: be abducting, assisting the disappearing a lawyer, and then we

538
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 4: don't have to run pable that you went back to

539
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 4: what you just said is the sex stuff is fine?

540
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: It's not fine.

541
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: He has to call her on it, and she goes, Okay, yeah,

542
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: it's not fine.

543
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 10: But did I get that right Handah mackenzie investigated reporter

544
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 10: in anchor Fox thirty five, Hannah, did Soto the mom

545
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 10: offer Stephan Stearns a.

546
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: Lawyer or offer to help him find a lawyer?

547
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 7: I think in the beginning stages, yes, but she then

548
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 7: kind of changed tune when she was speaking with investigators

549
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 7: and they were calling her on things that she had said,

550
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 7: like we just heard her saying, you know, this is

551
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 7: fine and then then being like did you just say

552
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 7: this is fine? I think she then saw that he

553
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 7: was going to be more of a suspect and began

554
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 7: to change her tune.

555
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: Okay, because they say, didn't you know that?

556
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: Then you offered a guy who the police suspected of kidnapped, abducting,

557
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: assisting the disappearance of your daughter, you offered him a

558
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: law You're okay, listen to this.

559
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 4: How do you feel what he said? He is a word.

560
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: He didn't believe me, Like when I was a little.

561
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: My daughter, she friends, this is closing down the house.

562
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 3: They know something or there's something like they know something,

563
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 3: something's happening. They wouldn't be locking down the house this

564
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 3: way if if they didn't have suspicions of something.

565
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 8: But I wasn't.

566
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: Thinking I don't know why I wasn't thinking him like,

567
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: I was just like, no, they've got the wrong guy.

568
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna try to see this in the light

569
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: most favorable to Jen Sooto right now.

570
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: But I'm having a hard time crime stories with Nancy Grace.

571
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: See, Drake, I'm gonna go to you before I go

572
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: to doctor Bethany. This time, I figured you out. Okay,

573
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: you're not gonna get to say what she just said, Drake.

574
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: She sees the forensic people around the house walking.

575
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: Around, and you know how they look. They're like bees swarming,

576
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: and she goes, hey, you don't see this, it's happening.

577
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: Something's wrong. Can I help get a lawyer? What?

578
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I would have stabbed him in the heart,

579
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: But she's talking to him about giving him a lawyer.

580
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 6: Yeah. She maintains a pretty pragmatic view of this entire thing,

581
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 6: just because again I think she's witting of this. Regardless

582
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 6: of any kind of mental health issues she may or

583
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 6: may not have, who cares, She still made a lot

584
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 6: of choices along this path, and the entire behavior she

585
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 6: has is completely congruent with compartmentalization of what she wanted

586
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 6: to believe was going on. And she thought all this

587
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 6: was fine. She set it out of her own mouth,

588
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 6: and so it's going to go sideways for it.

589
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 8: There's no doubt.

590
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: You know, that's interesting that he said that, Bethany, she

591
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: said it out of her own mouth, because so often

592
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: when we don't like what a person says, we choose

593
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: to believe they meant to say something else. Straight just

594
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: described the mom jen so To, who is not a

595
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: suspect in any way, and I assume is graving the

596
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: murder of her daughter. He described her as pragmatic. That's

597
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: not the adjective I would have picked, exactly. Pragmatic. I mean,

598
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: when I see forensics and swants circling the house and

599
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: I know I didn't do it, and I look over

600
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: this guy who's been sleeping with my daughter, I don't say, hey,

601
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: can I Dahlia Philip Dubay on the phone and get

602
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: you a high profile lawyer to help you out of

603
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: this mess.

604
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: I know that would not be what would be happening

605
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: in the house.

606
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 5: Well, okay, so remember that antisocial personality disorder symptom lying

607
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 5: conning and manipulativeness. I hear her more as being calculating

608
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 5: and remorseless during this time, and I think she knows

609
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 5: that if he.

610
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 8: Goes down, she's going to go down.

611
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 5: She was in that bed too when her daughter was

612
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 5: being raped. You know she's not a suspect. I do

613
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 5: know that she has not fallen under suspicion. But if

614
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 5: somebody's robbing a bank and I.

615
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: Don't know again, the band when Maddie was raped, I

616
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: think she would send them off to sleep in the

617
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: guest bedroom.

618
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 8: I don't need them.

619
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: But actually, the three of them did sleep together a lot,

620
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: and he did tell another woman he was saying that

621
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: he would get an erection in bed with Maddie, and

622
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 2: that woman wisely quit dating him. The three of them

623
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: did sleep together, that that point is without question.

624
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 5: Yes, And she would wake up and Jennifer would wake

625
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 5: up in the morning and find him spooning I think

626
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 5: the investigator called it spooning. She said cuddling with her daughter,

627
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 5: that they would have cuddle time. Also, when she sent

628
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 5: them upstairs, she called it a slumber party. You know,

629
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 5: and sex often a euphemism for sex is the word play.

630
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 5: People say, well, we had playtime or we played It's

631
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 5: sort of an adult reference. So I heard when she

632
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 5: said slumber party, it's almost like they're going to go

633
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 5: sexually play. I think that she was not compartmentalizing. I

634
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 5: think she knew exactly what was going on. And I

635
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 5: think if he goes down, she goes down too.

636
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 4: I know it's an emotional thing, and I know it

637
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 4: sucks to hear borah I'm coming from is it sits

638
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 4: like something that you can't hide forever. You guys live

639
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 4: in a small space, close corners, you sleep in the

640
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 4: same bed, you guys all talk, you guys all share things.

641
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 4: You're an observant person for the most part, I see,

642
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 4: outside of taking medications and going to sleep, it seems

643
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 4: very difficult. A lot of girls, adults can't hide an

644
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 4: affair with somebody who doesn't live with them, let a

645
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 4: little somebody who does live with them. Sort of certain

646
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 4: point I do believe you became aware of what was.

647
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 2: Going on straight out die profile lawyer Philip Dubay joining

648
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: us out of la Philip question, do you believe Jen

649
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: Soto will turn on Stephan Stearn's at trial and be

650
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: a state's witness because she will be in for a

651
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: searing cross examination if she does.

652
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 9: I do, as a matter of fact, But I do

653
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 9: think what could also happen is that she might take

654
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 9: the fifth and they're going to appoint her counsel, so

655
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 9: they won't be able to use her for either side.

656
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 9: Let's assume hypothetically that they do decide to put her

657
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 9: on and she wants to testify against Stefan. I think

658
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 9: she would come off quite credibly, But then the jury

659
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 9: might wonder, you know, why are you being so cerebral?

660
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 9: Why are you being so analytical about this? Why aren't

661
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 9: you being visceral? Were you in on it? So it

662
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 9: could actually be risky also for the prosecution by putting

663
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 9: her on, she needs to have something substantive to say

664
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 9: to appoint to his guilt as to the homicide and

665
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 9: the sex offenses.

666
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: Interesting, so earlier we heard doctor Bethany say, if hey,

667
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: Stephan Stearns goes down.

668
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: She goes down to.

669
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 2: She's not charged with anything, So I don't see how

670
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: that would happen.

671
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: The only way she would quote go down is that.

672
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: She would lose credibility as a mom because the jury

673
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: and others would see that this happened right under her nose.

674
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 9: And the only way she would ever be taken to

675
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 9: stand if I were appointed to represent her as a witness,

676
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 9: is for her to take the fifth or to be

677
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 9: guaranteed a complete grant of you and transactional immunity. Otherwise,

678
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 9: even if she successfully helps the prosecution gets stefan, they

679
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 9: could come.

680
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 8: After her next.

681
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 9: So they have to give her some type of an

682
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 9: incentive to testify against him because it's too risky.

683
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: Wow, you know what, Dube, your borderline scary. I wouldn't

684
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: have even thought of that next step of insisting that

685
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: she'd be granted immunity in exchange for testimony so there

686
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: could never be charges against her. Okay, one step ahead

687
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: of everybody else, Doctor Eric Aesen. The big question tonight

688
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: is was this little girl who just turned thirteen when

689
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: she was Maddie pregnant, And I feel like I'm eating

690
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 2: a dirt sandwich just saying those words, but the investigators

691
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 2: brought that up in Jen Soto's interview. So doctor Aeson again,

692
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 2: you stated you could tell pregnancy in a murder victim

693
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 2: by yurine that you would harvest during the auto or

694
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 2: from vitreous which is liquid surrounding the eye. Could if

695
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: you then say sheet was pregnant, what do you do

696
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 2: remove the fetus and determine the age?

697
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 11: Oh, well, it depends on how far along you are.

698
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 11: This was very early on in the pregnant sea. There's

699
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 11: really not going to be much there. There's just going

700
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 11: to be some tissue that's considered what's called products of conception,

701
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 11: but an actual fetus is not going to be there.

702
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 11: Another option would be to take the actual uterus itself

703
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 11: and look at it under the microscope. You can actually

704
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 11: see an implantation site where the embryo implanted. But you know,

705
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 11: the further along and pregnancy that you get, you're actually

706
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 11: going to have a fetus there, and can run DNA

707
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 11: testing and do an actual like a second autopsy within

708
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 11: an autopsy on that. I've done that before in a

709
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 11: couple of cass.

710
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 2: Hanna McKenzie joining us Fox thirty five, Orlando, the autopsy

711
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 2: report has still not been released, has it.

712
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 7: No, that's the that's the truth of it, Nancy. We are,

713
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 7: you know, waiting with baited breath to get that autopsy report.

714
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 7: We do know the cause of death listed as strangulation,

715
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 7: and we have reached out to the state Attorney's office

716
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 7: to find out if Mattie's body had been tested for

717
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 7: the presence of pregnancy hormone. They got back to us

718
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 7: and said that's an ongoing investigation and they weren't able

719
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 7: to release those results or whether or not they'd even.

720
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: Tested this entire line up.

721
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 2: Interrogation and questioning that we are analyzing tonight comes from

722
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: an interview with the mom, Jen Soto, where the investigator

723
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: asks if Maddie was pregnant. We wait as justice unfolds,

724
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: but now we stop to remember an American hero, Sergeant

725
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 2: Matthew Ryan Fishman, Wayne County Sheriff's North Carolina, shot and

726
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: killed in the line of duty. Fishman survived by grieving

727
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: wife Sarah and two children, Nolan and Kara. Sentenced to

728
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: life without dad. American hero Sergeant Matthew Ryan Fishman. Thank

729
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: you to our guests for tackling this very very disturbing issue,

730
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 2: but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray

731
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend,