WEBVTT - Introducing the National Links Trust 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.200 Today's episode is powered by Tdammeritrade. Every stroke counts on 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.040 the scorecard and every penny counts in the market. That's 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.920 why Tedammerior Trade is committed to straightforward pricing with no surprises, 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.840 so you're free to swing with confidence. Visit tdomritrade dot 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:21.120 com slash Fried Egg member SIPC. Welcome back to another 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.759 edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. In today's episode, I 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.280 am joined by Michael McCartin and Will Smith. These two 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.720 have formed a nonprofit foundation called the National Links Trust. 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.519 This nonprofit will focus on the restoration and preservation of 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.640 municipal golf in the United States. Their organization plans to 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.960 start with focusing on East Potomac, Rock Creek and Langston 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.800 Golf Course, three municipal courses in Washington, d C. Which 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.480 are managed by the National Park Service. The National Park 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:54.360 Service is starting an RFP process for their next operator, 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.160 which will be granted a lease up to sixty years. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.440 This long term lease will allow the properties to have 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.400 significant investment put into them and hopefully improvement of the courses. 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.720 The National Blink Trust hopes to be an instrumental part 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.520 in these three courses future Michael mccarton was a guest 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.320 on episode of one and twenty one when we discussed 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:17.600 in detail his thesis on the East Potomac golf Course. 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.000 Since that podcast, he has become more involved with the 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:25.560 RFP process and the other municipal courses in Washington, d C. 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.680 For this episode, we will lead into our conversation with 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.240 Michael and will with a highlight from our earlier episode 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:33.800 with Michael. 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:38.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:40.280 And when I find my ball in. 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.280 A brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida, egg Frida, 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:45.880 egg Frida, egg, egg Frida, egg bride egg. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.120 Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course. 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:22.960 Flat flat land, pretty pretty modest, nothing crazy. And they 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.400 hired Walter Travis. Ye, Who's Walter Travis? Where does he 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.240 fit in at this point in his career? 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:34.639 Walter Travis was an amazing golfer in his own right. 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.400 He won the US Amateur and the British Amateur. One 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.359 of the best golfers in history and was extremely well 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.279 known at the time and had trans you know, transferred 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.720 his talents from playing golf actively to being a golf 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.400 course architect. At that time, he had built Garden City 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:57.640 and Aquanic in Vermont and was kind of at the 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.560 height of his powers as a golf architect. He was 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.280 working at the time at Columbia Country Club in Washington, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:08.400 d C. And Walter Harbin, who was a member there 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.880 kind of an influential guy in the Washington DC golf scene, 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:17.359 recommended Walter Travis to the people in the Washington d 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:22.360 C Planning in a group to design the course at 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.640 East Potomac Park. And he took a look at the 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.799 course and was like, well, this is reclaimed land from 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.000 the Potomac River. It's relatively flat, it's kind of shaped 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:38.760 in this triangular shape going downstream in the river. It 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.000 kind of looks like San Andrew's honestly if you look 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.440 at it in any But yeah, he was. He looked 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.400 at the site and he said, you know what, this 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:48.760 is the perfect place to build a reversible golf course. 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.600 And he was he was a proponent of reversible courses. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:59.120 Why right, Well, because especially in this in this case, 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.920 they're a great way to create variety day to day 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.960 and also spread out the wear and tear from a 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.800 maintenance perspective, and when you think about how that applies 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:12.440 to a municipal course, where the idea is you're going 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.320 to get a lot of people around. It's open to everybody, 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.440 and at the time, there weren't a lot of avenues 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:18.920 to play golf if you were't a member of a 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.520 country club, so they were planning for a lot of golf, 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.640 and the idea of a reversible, you know, course makes 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.560 a ton of sense in that scenario where day to 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.719 day the way people walk around the place is different, 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.560 and so the wear patterns that in a different situation 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.360 might cause maintenance problems over time, you know, you can 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:44.400 spread those out and keep the entire place in better shape. 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.880 At the same time, if you play one day in 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.240 one direction and then you play the next day in 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.679 the other direction, it feels like a totally different course. 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.200 So you get a lot, you know, a lot of 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:58.960 bang for your buck in that scenario. 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.400 You had a great quote in your thesis. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:07.680 Good golf architecture and affordability are not mutually exclusive. Municipal 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.040 golf courses need to feature quality design at a price 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.560 locals can afford to play frequently, and that's the ethos 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.320 of this whole thing is that at a core East 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:24.080 Potomac set out to build the greatest municipal golf course 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:28.120 that in the country, and they did it by building 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.920 a golf course that was still exceptionally challenging for the 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.479 regular player, but so playable for the regular guy. 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.760 Yeah, and if you think about it, it hosted a 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.920 major tournament in its first full year of existence and 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:45.120 still got one hundred thousand rounds through it that same year. 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.520 I mean, it's crazy to even think about it, but 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:52.120 that one hundred thousand round number comes from a full 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.600 on cross section of the golfing community in Washington, d C. 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.159 At that time, probably heavily skewed to non country club 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:00.960 members who are just starting to play. 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.320 All right, Michael, you're back on second time. 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.919 It's a huge honor. This is great. Two times is 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:09.920 more than is two times more than I thought I 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:10.960 would ever do it. 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.520 And Will Smith So, co founder of the Outpost Club, 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:20.159 former aspiring golf architect, world traveler. 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:24.000 Yeah, it's nice to be with you, Andy and Michael. 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.640 Tough to follow the footsteps of the greats like Colin 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.080 she And and Jeff Ogilvy, but we'll do our best. 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.760 Yeah, So we're here today a little follow up from 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.360 Michael and I's pod over the Winner about East Potomac 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:44.520 and the Washington, DC area municipal golf courses. So we're here, Michael, 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.880 why don't you give us an update where we're at 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.279 with those with the RFP process. I know we talked 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:53.080 at length, so anybody that hasn't listened to that pod 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:54.160 be sure to check it out. 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:58.839 Sure. Yeah, So the RFP scheduled to come out in 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.280 the middle of May, and will and I have been 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.960 trying to chart it course forward to try and make 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.159 sure that you know, everything we talked about in the 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:13.760 first podcast actually happens. And that's basically to you know, 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.600 try to honor the histories of East Potomac and Rock 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:22.680 Creek and Langston through restoration of the East Potomac and 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.160 Rock Creek golf courses to the Walter Travis and William 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:29.600 Flynn designs, but also just preserving the accessibility and affordability 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.960 of the courses. And based on you know what, we 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.720 know a lot more now than we did at the 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.960 time that we talked Andy, and it's kind of amazing 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.560 how many people have reached out to us part of 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.680 this process, you know, after we were on your podcast, 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:51.640 and we've gotten two people and had meetings that we 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:53.920 probably couldn't have had otherwise. So we wanted to say 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:59.160 thank you for that exposure. What we want to accomplish requires, 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.240 you know, the right partartners. So one thing we've been 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.880 doing is just kind of having conversations with people who 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.480 either would put in a bid or would be interested, 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.560 you know, as part of a bid that we might do. 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.720 And so we're trying to keep our options open at 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:14.200 this point. But yeah, so to bad. 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.400 You know, you guys are forming a nonprofit called the 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:24.800 National Links Trust, and it's centered around maintaining restoring municipal 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.960 golf courses. At first, the main focus right now is Washington, DC, 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:36.319 but the grandiose vision is a organization that really protects 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:42.200 and attempts to make municipal golf, especially in city center better. Yeah. 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.480 I mean that's kind of the key thing that we've 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.520 learned as part of this is just the reaction that 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.080 we've gotten has been from people who care so much 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.199 about municipal courses. It's the place where people learn, it's 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.040 the gateway to golf for a lot of people. Nowhere 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.520 is that, you know, it's incredibly true at East Potomac 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:03.000 and the the DC courses, and we realize that the 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:07.120 you know, what people are feeling towards ease Potomac applies elsewhere, 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.079 and and it does feel like the the golf courses 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.080 that are in those situations are subject to you know, 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.640 pressures and things that that other courses don't, and they, 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.199 you know, in a lot of a lot of ways 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:23.320 need help to kind of maintain their you know, their influence, 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.520 you know, both from you know, an accessibility and affordability perspective, 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.320 but also on the architecture side, where like you've done 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.680 a lot of work, you know, shining a light on 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:36.559 Belmont for example, you know, the story of Belmont and 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.000 the story of East Potomac where these once great designs 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.200 have kind of eroded over time, you know, is something 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.760 that happens pretty routinely, especially when you're talking about courses 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.320 that were built in the twenties and thirties. And so 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.520 you will will and I've like thought a lot about this, 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.320 and I'll let him talk a little bit about it too, 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:57.360 but thought about the need for somebody to say, hey, 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.080 you know, the golf course is important too. 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.240 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, part of the 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.280 reason why we all love the game is the diversity 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.400 and of of the courses and the fields that we 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.480 get to play on. And it shouldn't. Good golf course 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.760 architecture shouldn't just be for a certain subset of the 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.000 golfing populace. It needs to be for everybody. It needs 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:20.920 to be. It needs to be. We need to have 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:26.119 affordable and accessible good golf course architecture to engage beginners, 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.720 to keep people coming back, to bring people back to 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.600 the game, and places like East Potomac can be and 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:37.000 are the fields that people need to keep playing and 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.719 it can be a huge improvement on the course there. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.480 And we think we can we can help tell the 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.520 story and make it make it a reality. 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.760 There are only so many hooks into the game, right. 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:49.720 There's a lot of reasons why people start to play, 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:54.000 but architecture is generally not one that's paid any attention to, 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.840 and especially at the places where people learn. And and 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.959 I think it's you know, overcoming it has or doing things, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.760 you know, especially in something that presents a cool problem. 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.439 I mean, like a good example would be one of 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:09.040 the courses I played growing up had a stupid little 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.760 pond and the yeah, architecturally it's not that great, but 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:13.720 it was a hazard. Like anytime I hit it over 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.400 the pond as like a seven year old, you know, 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.560 it's like a big deal, you know. But that sort 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.400 of thing can be presented thrill Yeah, yeah, I mean, 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.040 but think about it if it's actually done well. You know, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.520 if there's a golf course that that you know, compels 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.160 you to think about what you're doing and try for things, 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.840 you know, like a carry or thing or things like 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.320 that where you pull it off, it's it's it's thrilling. 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.679 Yeah. I think something that you've said to me a 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.960 bunch that really sticks with me is that the dirty 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.479 secret about in golf is that great golf course architecture 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.239 doesn't cost anymore than mediocre golf architecture. 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.560 Yeah. I mean, when it comes to a place like 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.360 Rock Creek or East Potomac where there's so much deferred 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.960 maintenance into the courses, they're going to have to to 0:11:58.000 --> 0:11:59.920 fix the drainage at East Potomac, they're going to have 0:11:59.920 --> 0:12:02.480 to put millions of dollars into the place. And if 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.680 you you know, at the same time as you rebuild 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:10.240 everything in the you know, aftermath of fixing drainage. To 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.880 build your average course or to build something great, it's 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.920 exactly the same, you know, amount of effort and time. 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.679 It's really just the thought and you know point of 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.120 view of the of the architects and builders and people 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.280 you know who are influencing the direction of the course 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.520 that that determines the quality of the outcome. 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.760 I think that we've seen a growing trend with restoration 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.160 across the country, but it's mostly been in the private space. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:42.760 When you look through the big cities and across the country, 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:47.480 there's usually a great golf course that's municipally run in 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.920 almost all of them, and that's I think the when 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.640 you look at the great opportunity there's obviously you know, 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.800 these are the most popular golf courses, whether they're they're 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:03.040 great or they're present and of the way they are now. Really, 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.080 I think the end of it is the product, and 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.800 we're in a product driven society, so it should only 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.920 help to have more people flocking to the game of 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:13.240 golf if the products great. 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.360 Absolutely, and uh and you know, I want to commend 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.000 to you on some of your writing on this issue. 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.720 It really helped me sort of realize that this isn't 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.040 just a d C opportunity or a d C issue, 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:29.200 that this is a national opportunity that we need to 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.000 get people back to the game or into the game. 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.600 And the architecture in the fields is to me the key. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.640 And as Mike point out, it's no more no more 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.440 expensive to build a great golf course than it is 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:41.920 to build a mediocre bore one. 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.120 So yeah, the other thing I think that people focus 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.199 on now more than ever, and it is incredibly true 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.560 for us, is that, yeah, the democracy of the game, 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.360 like bringing things that are available to people, you know, 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:58.920 with tons of money and members at a bunch of clubs, 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.520 you know, because when you combine that with the idea 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.679 that great golf course architecture doesn't cost anymore, it's it's 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:11.280 kind of crazy that there aren't more significant courses that 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.800 are available to the public at a reasonable price given 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.640 all of that, And it's about it's about prioritizing the 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.560 right things in the process. And I think, you know, 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.520 one of the points of this National Links Trust idea 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:28.440 is to provide that, you know, startup capital to make 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:30.880 the types of changes that are being made at private 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.960 clubs around the country, but make that available to the 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.080 places where so many people can actually go out and 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.200 experience it. 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.560 With East Potomac and the National Parks Courses here in Washington, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.840 d C. It's a it's a pivotal point right now 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.960 with the RFPs opening up in mid May. What are 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.960 the initial goals for the National Links Trust for this 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:55.960 project here? 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.320 Well, first, we have to find the right partners as 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.680 part of this process. We're open to working with entities 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.200 that we're going to put in a bid anyway, as 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.560 well as you know, organize our own. So we're really 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.800 going down the path of you know, both both trying 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.520 to work with with those people who are already involved and 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.160 trying to you know, bring together our own group. And 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.880 we've had a lot of great conversations along that that way, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.720 and we're we're kind of gearing up to to do 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.720 our own bid because we don't know exactly how people 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.440 will react when when the RFP does come out. 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.160 In me, Yeah, we're we're trying to get our ducts 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.440 in a row, trying to get gather as much information 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.920 as possible, but also put together a group that can 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:40.280 respond to the to the RFP when it comes out, 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:43.880 both both from a partnership standpoint but also from an 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.040 advocacy standpoint. You know, this is a political exercise at 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:48.920 the end of the day, and and we're going to 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.360 need to We're going to need to uh to talk 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.120 to the people up on the on the hill in 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.040 the National Park Service and and and share our vision 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.800 as widely and broadly as we possibly can. 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.440 Yeah, the sharing of vision is kind of the the 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.960 thing that kind of brings people into the fold that 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.840 you know, just like whether it's this podcast or we're 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.160 having you know, a get together today. You know, we've 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.840 we've had such a great response from people from all 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.200 over kind of the community in DC, and everybody can 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.400 contribute in different ways, and so kind of getting the 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.240 group of people who are interested together, figuring out ways 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.720 in which everybody can can make a difference in the 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.760 process is also a big part of that. And kind 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:34.920 of playing to everyone's strength. 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.880 Obviously with the properties there's you know, they're right in 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.760 the city, they're i mentally valuable. Any operator that takes 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:49.520 over has the opportunity to build a great business around 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.960 this in terms of what are what's the vision in 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.760 terms of the properties and what type of golf the 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:03.600 National Ink Trust is trying to promote. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.400 Well especially as it relates to the three DC courses. 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.359 Rock Creek and East Potomac are the like most straightforward, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.080 and that they had great designs, you know, to start out, 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:15.679 So then you have to kind of look at it 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:17.560 from a business perspective. We want to get back to 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.680 those great designs. East Potomac happens to be a great 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.520 business right now. If the driving range makes a ton 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.639 of money, the golf courses are full, there's not an 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.480 immediate need to do something tomorrow in order to fix 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.679 the business. At Rock Creek, however, the back nine is 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.320 fully overgrown by trees and you know, you have to 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.200 walk single file down the fairway is if you're not 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.800 going to get hit by a branch, right, So there's 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.240 an immediate need there to do something to help the business. 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.160 You know, We've kicked around some ideas and we have 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.680 a pretty clear vision for what we should accomplish there. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.800 One of the one of the things that's unique about 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.760 Rock Creek is it's on the you know, the drive 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.240 home for hundreds of thousands people in the DC area 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.760 commuting to and from work. East Potomac has a driving 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.000 range that kills It makes a ton of money every 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.800 year Rock Creek is actually more convenient for a lot 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.880 of people, but it doesn't have a driving range. That 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.199 could be a great option for just turning around the 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.720 business of Rock Creek quickly. There's if you were going 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.879 to go down that route, you could preserve nine holes 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.640 of the William Flynn course and build a Part three 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.040 course or a kid's course or something like that and 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:32.280 really cater to you know, what people have time and 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.040 ability to do, you know, in this day and age, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:38.520 you know, with family commitments and everything. You know, having 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.040 a place where you can go and spend an hour 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.080 or two playing golf or getting your kids involved is 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.000 incredibly valuable, and Rock Creek is just kind of sitting 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:47.680 there waiting for something like that to happen. 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.080 Yeah, I think we're at a really interesting point in 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.120 sort of municipal golf in uniteds America. There's so many 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.439 great programs. The people are rethinking what municipal golf can be. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.119 You know, while we're sort of developing this concept and 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:05.439 ideas were forming in my head, and I got to 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:07.480 go down and see Winter Park nine and see the 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.959 way that that seamlessly integrates to its community, the way 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.800 it engages the community through programming that's not necessarily golf 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.040 focused and golf driven. You know, these are all the 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.520 things that we want to look at and learn from 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.879 and you know, potentially bring to the facilities here in 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.760 in d C. It's I think it's a really exciting 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.760 time for municipal golf. People are starting to think broader 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.560 and and out of left field and and uh trying 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.800 to bring new ideas, and so we're excited to to 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.400 keep folks, you know, keep keep chasing those downs. 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.480 One last thing. You know that we've talked a lot 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.520 about the Part three courses that are popping up around 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:51.159 the big resorts and how popular those are. And then 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:56.120 you know at Pinehurst or abandoned Sam Valley, it's another place. 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.600 It's another thing where that should be. You know, that's 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:03.159 that's a perfect scenario for a municipal course. You know, 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.119 East Potomac has a Part three course and it's the 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.439 you know, the first course I played and then I 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.040 graduated to the White Course, which is you know, an 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:14.600 executive length course, and then the Blue and just to 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.720 have facilities like that where you can you know, get 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.399 some experience and then move up, you know that that 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.600 should be another function of municipal golf and and it's 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.240 something that you know a lot of places have room for. 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.800 And I think there's now the appetite and recognition that 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:30.080 that's important. 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.680 You know, today, I think in a lot of ways, 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:40.960 the resort are almost like the innovators on the golf spectrum. 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:43.360 So they, you know, especially in the golf course, they 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.879 have a very monetary reason to be on the cutting edge. 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:52.560 And short courses popularity boom at the resort level should 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:57.679 signal signal to the operators at municipal level like this 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:02.560 is working and build course. That's something really stuck with 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.080 me when we did the podcast about the Sandbox was 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.520 when he was growing up, Part three, courses were like 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.480 second class citizen for golf, Like there were the golf 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.000 courses go to when you didn't have time to or 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.359 couldn't get a tea time at the big golf course. 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:23.160 And anybody that's played, whether it be band and Dunes, Preserve, 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.120 the Cradle and Pinehurst or the Sandbox of sand Valley 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.560 or you know, I know that Big Cedar Lodge has 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.760 some short courses and country clubs are starting to pop 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:33.960 up with short courses. 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:35.840 Is if you do a. 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:39.239 Good job, if you put the time into designing this 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:44.800 short course, it's not uninteresting. Like you know, Ogilvie, Clayton, 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.400 Kaking and mea OCCM did a great one in Dallas 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.280 at Shady Oaks Country Club and you know, walking around there, 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.520 I was like, this is infinitely interesting and you could 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.080 set it up a number of different ways and tests everything. 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:58.480 It's those golf courses. 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:03.280 Also at the modern time, with technology, people have less 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.800 and less time for eighteen holes. At the municipal level, 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:08.560 they almost make more sense than they make. 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:09.400 The resort level. 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.159 Yeah, I mean, I don't want to go on like 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.600 a randmre set type rant against the scorecard and pencil set. 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:18.520 But you know, golf is golf is about being outside. 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:22.040 It's about being outside with friends and family. It's about 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.080 engaging your mind and engaging your body. And we don't 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.120 need to put these into these four hour eighteen whole boxes. 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:31.879 It can be shorter. It can be you know, twelve 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:34.080 par threes, it can be thirteen par threes, it can 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:36.320 be you know a mix of short fours and threes. 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:37.119