WEBVTT - Can Crypto Trading Be Addictive? 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:05.800 I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News, 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.800 and this is Bloomberg Crypto at Daily Bloomberg I Heart Podcast. 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:18.840 It's Tuesday, June one. In this episode, we're going to 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:22.639 talk about crypto addiction. There are rehab centers for people 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.120 seeking treatment for addictions to drugs and alcohol, the gambling, 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:31.400 and more recently to online experiences like gaming. Now these 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.080 centers are seeing an uptake and people looking for help 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:38.640 controlling their crypto trading. Today, I'm joined by two Bloomberg reporters, 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.400 Claire Valentine and Charlie Wells. They've both written about how 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.599 some crypto traders and equity traders have experienced the spiral 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:52.360 from temptation to desperation. So Lights is to be joined 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.120 today by not one, but two Bloomberg reporters. We have 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:57.800 Charlie Wells joining us from the London office, but he's 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.000 actually in New York this week, and Claire Valentine, Hello 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:05.440 do you both? Hello? Hello? So we're gonna talk about 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.840 a slightly heavier subject than we may necessarily have discussed 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.960 in other episodes. You know, where we've talked about regulation 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.720 or what's happening in Congress. But today we're going to 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.920 talk a little bit more about crypto addiction. And Charlie, 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.400 you wrote the story I remember when you first emailed 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:27.520 about it about folks who are checking themselves into rehab 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.400 because they are finding it hard to control their you know, 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.040 crypto treating activities. Can you talk a little bit more 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:38.360 about that and what you found in the story? Yeah, 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.400 so I think, you know, this really kind of started 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.480 with wondering, you know, can you actually be addicted to cryptocurrency? 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.480 Because we hear people use the word addiction very loosely, 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.120 and it's a serious It's a serious topic, right like this, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.160 addictions can ruin people's lives, um and we wanted to 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.600 know is is crypto addiction real? Is Are some of 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.120 these re have centers that have been popping up on 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.680 both sides of the Atlantic and many parts of the world. 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.639 Are they legitimate? Are they serving some sort of purpose? 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.840 And so what we did was we looked at some 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.640 of these treatment centers. There's one in Switzerland where, of 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:18.840 course in Switzerland, where a colleague went, they charged nine 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.680 thousand dollars a week to treat the ultra wealthy who 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.880 may have may have cryptocurrency addictions. There's one in Scotland, 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.919 there's one in Maryland. There's a number of online providers. Now. 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.720 I think the hard thing for the story, for reporting 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.440 the story was finding people who say they are addicted 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.160 to talk to us. Because it's hard, it's it's embarrassing, 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.480 it's hard. It's a serious part of life, um. And 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.160 I think one of the striking things is I found 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:51.000 somebody in a corner of Reddit called butt coin, and 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.480 it is a place where people gather to talk trash 0:02:54.600 --> 0:03:00.000 about bitcoin. And one of the people on there said, hey, look, um, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.400 I was addicted to to bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. Coming here 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.440 talking trash about it was really helpful, thank you. And 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.600 so that was one pathway that I went to find somebody. 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.880 But it was an interesting journey. It does indeed sound 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.680 like an interesting journey. One of my questions about that 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.280 is when that person says, hey, I was addicted to this, 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.520 what do they mean? What is that manifest as? That's 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.959 a really good question. And for him it was interrupting 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.720 his regular life. He was trading when he got up 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.800 in the morning instead of playing with his new child. 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:40.160 He is a religious person, he wasn't praying as much 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.160 as he wanted to UM, and so it seemed like 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:47.840 he just couldn't control his behavior and wanted that to change. 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.120 He didn't go to a rehab center, but a lot 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.760 of the kind of tendencies that he talked about in 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:58.720 the behaviors aligned with what some of our experts that 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:03.040 we spoke with UM said could potentially be cryptocurrency addiction. 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.440 Because this is where I think it's important for us 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.880 to just pulls and kind of reflect on what you 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.600 said at the top, which is people throw the word 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.320 addiction around a lot, right they you know, I'm addicted 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.520 to coffee. You know you like coffee. That's it's not 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.680 the same. And so when somebody is getting to the 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.440 point where they're being they're either self diagnosing or being 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:27.280 diagnosed as having cryptocurrency addiction, it sounds like you're saying 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.440 that some of these behaviors include things that really interrupt 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:35.320 their normal daily activities in ways that are having harmful 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.119 and potentially long term consequences. Yes, that's exactly right. So 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.920 you know, one of the things about cryptocurrency is it 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.159 is legitimate, right, there are people who make legitimate money, 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:50.280 working incredibly hard, incredibly long hours doing this, and what 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.400 was striking to me was one therapist said, you know, look, 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.440 there are so many, you know, millions of people who 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:03.080 trade crypto. If DOE we're as addictive as some might suggest, 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:05.960 there'd be millions of people who are addicted, right, So 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.120 it's a small number of people. And I do think, 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.840 as you say, it's it's when it's interrupting, um, your 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.800 daily activities in ways that you don't want. What was 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.960 really striking with speaking with another person being treated for 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.440 this in a Scottish clinic, and he said that he 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.359 had this realization at one point when he was taking 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.640 kind of excessive risk in markets, was that he would 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.800 start with, you know, a small amount of money, bring 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.719 it up to maybe a hundred thousand dollars worth of 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.760 whatever asset that was, and then he'd lose it again. 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:40.800 And he kind of had this realization that was like, oh, 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.120 maybe I don't actually want the money. Maybe I'm just 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.920 doing this for the thrill. Well that sounds like gambling, yeah, 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.560 And I think that brings us to a really interesting point, 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.560 which is that you know, there is not an official 0:05:55.800 --> 0:06:00.680 designation in the Bible of psychiatry Um the d s 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.560 M five yes, there's not an official cryptocurrency addiction, but 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.240 what gambling professors and researchers said is that this really 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:14.520 aligns with gambling disorder, and gambling disorder was recently added 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:19.680 to this Bible of psychiatry um controversial Bible of psychiatry. Yes, 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.719 controversial Bible of psychiatry, and it kind of reflects this 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:26.960 moment where we're at, where behavioral addictions are getting more 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.880 attention by the psychiatric community. Claire, I want to ask 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.320 you a little bit about gambling and finance, because you 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:38.680 have covered meme stocks, and you have covered the ways 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.600 in which, for a moment, perhaps less so right now, trading. 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.560 These things seemed to take over people's lives. They definitely 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.719 took over the media conversation. But there were lots of people, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.200 you know, also want to reddit, not necessarily in but coin, 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.080 but there's another subreddits where people were saying, you know, 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:58.200 they're they're not sleeping, they're staring at screens constantly. They 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.640 feel like they're taking excessive risks. Are you finding any 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:08.040 similarities in these um, I suppose novel behavioral expressions of 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.280 perhaps older forms of you know, dependencies that we develop 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.960 those people. Yeah, absolutely, and I think UM so much 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:17.960 of it has to do with this current moment that 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:22.960 we're in, both with cryptocurrencies gaining popularity. UM partially fueled 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.640 by UM when people were bored during the pandemic, and 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.160 I think a lot of this originated with that when 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.680 people were locked down. This was a way to have community, 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:36.400 to do something with your time besides sitting and being 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.080 bored at home. Yes, and so you know, anything that 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.440 could give people a thrill UM And then you know, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:48.200 so maybe this started out with stock trading on robin 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.720 hood Um, which also has come under some scrutiny for 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.400 its addictive qualities. And then, at least in my own reporting, 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.720 people that I've talked to move from stock trading to crypto, 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.160 and so that's just sort of accelerates this pathway. But 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.480 I think there is you know, there's excitement around it, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.040 there's a community around it, and at least for a 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.080 bit there, you know, now that we've seen both crypto 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.240 and stocks tumble, it's changed a little bit, but it's everywhere. 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.680 I mean, I take the subway every day and you 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.520 can't do that without seeing a crypto ad. You know. 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.840 Thinking about like the Super Bowl, almost every ad had 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.200 something to do with crypto. So it's, um, it's an 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.000 easy environment I think for people to stumble into it 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:34.080 and for it to be something that really appeals to them. 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.360 And what I think is so interesting about that, And 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.679 I'm glad we have managed to sort of join up 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.840 the gambling and the marketing conversation, because you know, gambling 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:47.280 is a relatively heavily regulated activity in a lot of places. 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:52.040 Your ability to willfully lose money is pretty constrained. Uh, 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.679 you know, there are rules that vary by states. And 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.920 some of the more recent conversation has been around Okay, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.160 hang on, you tell me I can only get well 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:01.600 if I go to a casino, But now I can 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.880 do sports betting, or I can do way more things 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.839 on my phone where it's it's really easy and some 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:09.600 of the friction of having to go to a physical 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.600 place or removed. And you know, so folks are asking 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.040 about the wisdom, as it were, of making it easier 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.040 to do different kinds of betting and of gambling. But 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.199 almost none of that conversation has been applied to crypto yet, 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:24.839 or even to stock trading. Have either of you seen 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.319 anything or seen this conversation evolving to include crypto and 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:31.800 stop trading in that In that sense, I think what 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.560 I have seen mostly is there's this question of how 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.320 much should it be regulated because and it comes up 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.839 in gambling as well. You know, there's uh the concepts 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.440 of free will and people should do what you want. Yeah, exactly, 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:47.760 there's you know, your agency, and you should be allowed 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.440 to lose money if you want to with gambling, and 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.480 I do feel like that's moving over to stock trading 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.559 and crypto, and I remember, you know, when retail and 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.559 dressers were first getting into the market, they are these 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.199 conversations of you know, they're losing money, like when does 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.240 the SEC need to step in? But then some traders 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.400 themselves were I don't tell me what to do. If 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:11.360 I want to lose money, I can lose my money. 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.240 So it's this interesting, you know, sort of discussion about 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:18.199 how much do regulatory agencies both need to step in 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:34.520 and should thank you both, We'll be right back. How 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.000 were you able to find reputable people treating crypto rehab 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:43.240 in this environment? Good question, because I think that we 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.600 really tried to bring a sense of skepticism to this. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.040 You know, the clinics that we spoke with, do have 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:56.680 you know, licensed therapists who are who are employed, who 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:00.599 use methods that might be similar to gambling addiction to 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:06.040 you know, more well known addictions. And so I think 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.360 that was one way that we felt that, you know, 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.760 we were speaking with people who are at least somewhat legitimate. 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.000 I think that when you look at some of the 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.880 excesses around some of the treatment, so that particularly very 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.280 expensive treatment. Yes that you know, I think there was 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.199 a whole wellness element to this, and you can see 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:31.960 how it could go. You could go maybe quite far um. 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.000 And you know, I don't think we would want any 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.760 person who was struggling with this to think, Okay, I 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:41.160 need to shell out thousands of dollars to go somewhere. Um. 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.520 The main character in the story quit cold Turkey. So 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:50.280 I think that being cautious here is really important. Claire, 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.800 any thoughts on in addition to us all all being 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.320 cautious in what is a very complicated topic. You know, 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.680 you mentioned this idea of free will and of agency, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:01.960 and you know, Charlie, you didn't use this word, but 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.760 there's a lot of libertarians in crypto right there. There 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.000 are a lot of people who are like, do not 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.440 tell me what to do in any part of my life, 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:13.040 and especially you, the government's sovereign state that I don't 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.200 trust to start with, don't tell me how to how 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.160 to deal with my money. Do you think that or 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.320 my my non fiat? Do you think that hasn't any 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:24.600 way complicated what could otherwise be fruit full conversations for 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:26.520 people who might be struggling or for people who might 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.600 have questions. I think definitely. And I think that you know, 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.800 even this discussion around what is addiction can be uh 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.319 one of the reasons why people who need help maybe 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.920 don't get help. They don't realize they have an addiction, 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.040 or they you know, they think they don't even know 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.240 about options for treatment. And and I do think that 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.600 there are lots of people out there who think they 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:50.920 should be able to do whatever they want and that 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.240 if they lose money, it's on them. There shouldn't be 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:56.920 rules around it. And I think that it's all kind 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:01.600 of connected, right, it's our current political atmosphere, and it's um, 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.360 you know, how much government oversteps should there be, how 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.960 much regulation should there be? And so it's you know, 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.280 and and there are lots of different kinds of people 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.440 that trade. Crypto is a thing. I mean, there's definitely 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.959 a stereotype of, you know, a certain kind of crypto trader, 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.640 but there's there's many of them, and so I think 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.760 that it varies based on the person, why they're investing, 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.920 what their mindset is around it. Um. But I do 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:28.880 think for many of them, you know, they would be 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.360 appalled at the idea of people taking away their their 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.040 right to trade this as much as they want. You know, Charlie, 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.600 when you when you were doing reporting, did you find 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.320 that these the folks that you were talking to are 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.200 the folks who identify themselves or for what the experts saying. 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.320 Were there similarities about them? Were they were they already 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.560 in treatment for other things? Was this more of a 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.600 manifestation of other stuff that was going on? And where 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:54.560 there are people who were like, I'm totally fine everywhere 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:56.679 else it's just crypto that really kind of hits the 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.400 nail on the head here, which was both of the 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.640 people that we quote in the story said they kind 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:07.560 of had, you know, compulsive personalities. They knew themselves, and 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.120 I thought that that self knowledge was really refreshing. Um 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.520 to have people say, look, I know that I am 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.000 quite compulsive. One of the men that I spoke with 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:21.880 in the UK had drug and alcohol problems. One of 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.560 the therapist at a treatment center said that often, you know, 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.080 people don't come to his center for crypto addiction. They 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.360 come because they're struggling with other addictions, maybe substances, and 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.360 then as they're unpacking what might be going on, you 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.360 see other addictions as well, and so that was the 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.720 case with with this man. One of the I suppose 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.400 one of the other questions that I found when I 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:48.320 was reading a piece is like, how would you know 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.680 right and do the signs manifest pretty much the same 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.160 as if you are getting diagnosed as somebody who may 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.400 have an addiction to gambling or to other substit says 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.760 in talking to those experts and those therapists, was there 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.200 anything they said that was sort of a unique to 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.400 the manifestation of people who have, you know, come out 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.760 as addicted to crypto or was it more like it 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.360 looks like these other things you see. Yeah, So I 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.200 think what was striking to me here was it's not 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.920 just about losing a lot of money or earning a 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:25.560 lot of money. And so some of these addicts said, oh, yeah, sure, 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.080 it's thrilling to win a lot, but it's also really 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.000 thrilling to lose a lot. And it's that like, whoa, 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.520 I've lost control. Um that you know seems to trigger 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:41.280 some reward mechanisms in the brain. Um. How do you know? Though? 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.920 I mean, I think if you are being hurt, I 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:49.440 think financially, that would probably be a sign. UM. I 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.600 think one of the things that we've been touching on 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.400 here is just this culture of not wanting to be 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.760 told that you might have a problem. But I think 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.480 if people who you do trust two are telling you 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.520 that you know, this could be a problem, maybe that 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.520 there's a there's an indication there to to listen. Um. 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.800 But it all seemed to be unique. I think there 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.360 wasn't necessarily one sign like bang, you're addicted to crypto. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.680 You know. One of the things that has happened to 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.240 retail investors in addition to equities going down is there 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:29.960 was a lot there were a lot of people who 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.840 were very exposed to Luna and Terra, and and those 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.000 folks were sharing some very sad stories, um, you know, 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.960 on Reddit, on Twitter and other forums about what they 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.480 had lost. And I didn't notice there was something about 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.280 the severity not just of the collapse, but of the 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.400 reaction that it was one of the first times that 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.080 I really saw mental health and people asking like are 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.160 you okay? Not just is your wallet okay? Is your 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.680 account okay? Like are you the person behind the pseudonym 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.080 doing okay? And you know, there there were there were 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.000 definitely signs that this had been pre existing, like fairly 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:09.080 close knit community. But it is it's heartening that at 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.119 least in some of the darker times that folks are 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.920 experiencing in markets, that there is community out there for them. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:16.320 I think that's a really good point, and I think 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.480 it's important for us remember, you know, there's real people 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:24.040 behind these trades, and we live in an atomized media 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.679 environment where some people might be getting good information, some 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.200 people might not be, and some people are making choices 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:32.639 based on the best information that they have and that 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.920 may have been to do these investments that people in 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:37.760 their peer groups were telling them to do because it 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:41.560 seemed great. Um, And they've lost a lot of money, right, 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.040 And that has a serious impact on mental health. And 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:46.480 I think it's it's one thing to say, oh wow, 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.880 crypto addiction, how funny is that? But it's it's serious. 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:52.600 Um And so I'm glad we're having this conversation. And 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.600 I think too, you know, in a down market kind 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.960 of like what we're starting to experience, and you know, 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.119 make it worse, there is more sense of empathy that 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.160 comes out for people, and so, you know the difference 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.959 between someone losing a lot of money on Big Tex stocks, 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.439 which is more mainstream versus crypto suddenly becomes kind of similar, 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.840 and it's all like we all kind of lost money. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.360 We're sort of in this together. Yeah, sometimes group think 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.920 can be good. All right, Well, thank you both for 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.160 joining me. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you, 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.959 Thank you. You can find more of Charlie's reporting and 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.600 of Claire's reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg dot com, 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.359 and you can find them both on Twitter. Charlie is 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:38.280 at Charlie w Wells and Claire is at CFB Underscore eighteen. 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.240 On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto, do you have 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.560 any beach vacation plans coming up? What if you could 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:55.520 combine sun, sea, sand, surf and bitcoin. This is the 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.200 latest pitch from El Salvador No One for his Beautiful coastline. 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.200 El salve Door has recently tried to become a destination 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.879 for the bitcoin faithful. There's even a Bitcoin beach on offer. 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.919 Tomorrow I sit down with report to Mike McDonald to 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.040 hear more about the how and why El Salvador's millennial 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:18.439 president is such a Bitcoin believer. I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.960 and this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.960 and I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.240 visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.879 you get your podcasts. Email your questions, comments or suggestions 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.800 for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net and 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:43.080 you'll find us on Twitter at Crypto. The supervising producer 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.480 of this episode is Vicky Very Galina. Associate producer is 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:51.159 Zan Absdiki Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.840 by Leo Sidron. Bloomberg's Head of Podcasts is Francesca Levi. 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:05.040 The Ispstan the shot ba in Astant and intend in 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:05.720 every