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Speaker 1: I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News,

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Speaker 1: and this is Bloomberg Crypto at Daily Bloomberg I Heart Podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, June one. In this episode, we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about crypto addiction. There are rehab centers for people

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Speaker 1: seeking treatment for addictions to drugs and alcohol, the gambling,

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Speaker 1: and more recently to online experiences like gaming. Now these

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Speaker 1: centers are seeing an uptake and people looking for help

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Speaker 1: controlling their crypto trading. Today, I'm joined by two Bloomberg reporters,

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Speaker 1: Claire Valentine and Charlie Wells. They've both written about how

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Speaker 1: some crypto traders and equity traders have experienced the spiral

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Speaker 1: from temptation to desperation. So Lights is to be joined

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Speaker 1: today by not one, but two Bloomberg reporters. We have

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Speaker 1: Charlie Wells joining us from the London office, but he's

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Speaker 1: actually in New York this week, and Claire Valentine, Hello

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Speaker 1: do you both? Hello? Hello? So we're gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: a slightly heavier subject than we may necessarily have discussed

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Speaker 1: in other episodes. You know, where we've talked about regulation

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Speaker 1: or what's happening in Congress. But today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about crypto addiction. And Charlie,

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Speaker 1: you wrote the story I remember when you first emailed

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Speaker 1: about it about folks who are checking themselves into rehab

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Speaker 1: because they are finding it hard to control their you know,

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Speaker 1: crypto treating activities. Can you talk a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about that and what you found in the story? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I think, you know, this really kind of started

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Speaker 1: with wondering, you know, can you actually be addicted to cryptocurrency?

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Speaker 1: Because we hear people use the word addiction very loosely,

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Speaker 1: and it's a serious It's a serious topic, right like this,

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Speaker 1: addictions can ruin people's lives, um and we wanted to

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Speaker 1: know is is crypto addiction real? Is Are some of

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Speaker 1: these re have centers that have been popping up on

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Speaker 1: both sides of the Atlantic and many parts of the world.

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Speaker 1: Are they legitimate? Are they serving some sort of purpose?

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Speaker 1: And so what we did was we looked at some

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Speaker 1: of these treatment centers. There's one in Switzerland where, of

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Speaker 1: course in Switzerland, where a colleague went, they charged nine

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a week to treat the ultra wealthy who

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Speaker 1: may have may have cryptocurrency addictions. There's one in Scotland,

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Speaker 1: there's one in Maryland. There's a number of online providers. Now.

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Speaker 1: I think the hard thing for the story, for reporting

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Speaker 1: the story was finding people who say they are addicted

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Speaker 1: to talk to us. Because it's hard, it's it's embarrassing,

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Speaker 1: it's hard. It's a serious part of life, um. And

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Speaker 1: I think one of the striking things is I found

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Speaker 1: somebody in a corner of Reddit called butt coin, and

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Speaker 1: it is a place where people gather to talk trash

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Speaker 1: about bitcoin. And one of the people on there said, hey, look, um,

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Speaker 1: I was addicted to to bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. Coming here

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Speaker 1: talking trash about it was really helpful, thank you. And

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Speaker 1: so that was one pathway that I went to find somebody.

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Speaker 1: But it was an interesting journey. It does indeed sound

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Speaker 1: like an interesting journey. One of my questions about that

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Speaker 1: is when that person says, hey, I was addicted to this,

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Speaker 1: what do they mean? What is that manifest as? That's

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Speaker 1: a really good question. And for him it was interrupting

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Speaker 1: his regular life. He was trading when he got up

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Speaker 1: in the morning instead of playing with his new child.

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Speaker 1: He is a religious person, he wasn't praying as much

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Speaker 1: as he wanted to UM, and so it seemed like

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Speaker 1: he just couldn't control his behavior and wanted that to change.

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Speaker 1: He didn't go to a rehab center, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of the kind of tendencies that he talked about in

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Speaker 1: the behaviors aligned with what some of our experts that

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Speaker 1: we spoke with UM said could potentially be cryptocurrency addiction.

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Speaker 1: Because this is where I think it's important for us

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Speaker 1: to just pulls and kind of reflect on what you

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Speaker 1: said at the top, which is people throw the word

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Speaker 1: addiction around a lot, right they you know, I'm addicted

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Speaker 1: to coffee. You know you like coffee. That's it's not

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Speaker 1: the same. And so when somebody is getting to the

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Speaker 1: point where they're being they're either self diagnosing or being

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Speaker 1: diagnosed as having cryptocurrency addiction, it sounds like you're saying

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Speaker 1: that some of these behaviors include things that really interrupt

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Speaker 1: their normal daily activities in ways that are having harmful

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Speaker 1: and potentially long term consequences. Yes, that's exactly right. So

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things about cryptocurrency is it

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Speaker 1: is legitimate, right, there are people who make legitimate money,

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Speaker 1: working incredibly hard, incredibly long hours doing this, and what

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Speaker 1: was striking to me was one therapist said, you know, look,

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Speaker 1: there are so many, you know, millions of people who

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Speaker 1: trade crypto. If DOE we're as addictive as some might suggest,

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Speaker 1: there'd be millions of people who are addicted, right, So

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Speaker 1: it's a small number of people. And I do think,

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Speaker 1: as you say, it's it's when it's interrupting, um, your

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Speaker 1: daily activities in ways that you don't want. What was

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Speaker 1: really striking with speaking with another person being treated for

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Speaker 1: this in a Scottish clinic, and he said that he

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Speaker 1: had this realization at one point when he was taking

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Speaker 1: kind of excessive risk in markets, was that he would

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Speaker 1: start with, you know, a small amount of money, bring

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Speaker 1: it up to maybe a hundred thousand dollars worth of

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Speaker 1: whatever asset that was, and then he'd lose it again.

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Speaker 1: And he kind of had this realization that was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe I don't actually want the money. Maybe I'm just

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Speaker 1: doing this for the thrill. Well that sounds like gambling, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that brings us to a really interesting point,

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Speaker 1: which is that you know, there is not an official

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Speaker 1: designation in the Bible of psychiatry Um the d s

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Speaker 1: M five yes, there's not an official cryptocurrency addiction, but

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Speaker 1: what gambling professors and researchers said is that this really

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Speaker 1: aligns with gambling disorder, and gambling disorder was recently added

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Speaker 1: to this Bible of psychiatry um controversial Bible of psychiatry. Yes,

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Speaker 1: controversial Bible of psychiatry, and it kind of reflects this

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Speaker 1: moment where we're at, where behavioral addictions are getting more

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Speaker 1: attention by the psychiatric community. Claire, I want to ask

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Speaker 1: you a little bit about gambling and finance, because you

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Speaker 1: have covered meme stocks, and you have covered the ways

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Speaker 1: in which, for a moment, perhaps less so right now, trading.

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Speaker 1: These things seemed to take over people's lives. They definitely

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Speaker 1: took over the media conversation. But there were lots of people,

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Speaker 1: you know, also want to reddit, not necessarily in but coin,

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Speaker 1: but there's another subreddits where people were saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're they're not sleeping, they're staring at screens constantly. They

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Speaker 1: feel like they're taking excessive risks. Are you finding any

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Speaker 1: similarities in these um, I suppose novel behavioral expressions of

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Speaker 1: perhaps older forms of you know, dependencies that we develop

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Speaker 1: those people. Yeah, absolutely, and I think UM so much

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Speaker 1: of it has to do with this current moment that

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Speaker 1: we're in, both with cryptocurrencies gaining popularity. UM partially fueled

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Speaker 1: by UM when people were bored during the pandemic, and

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of this originated with that when

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Speaker 1: people were locked down. This was a way to have community,

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Speaker 1: to do something with your time besides sitting and being

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Speaker 1: bored at home. Yes, and so you know, anything that

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Speaker 1: could give people a thrill UM And then you know,

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Speaker 1: so maybe this started out with stock trading on robin

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Speaker 1: hood Um, which also has come under some scrutiny for

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Speaker 1: its addictive qualities. And then, at least in my own reporting,

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Speaker 1: people that I've talked to move from stock trading to crypto,

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Speaker 1: and so that's just sort of accelerates this pathway. But

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Speaker 1: I think there is you know, there's excitement around it,

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Speaker 1: there's a community around it, and at least for a

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Speaker 1: bit there, you know, now that we've seen both crypto

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Speaker 1: and stocks tumble, it's changed a little bit, but it's everywhere.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I take the subway every day and you

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Speaker 1: can't do that without seeing a crypto ad. You know.

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Speaker 1: Thinking about like the Super Bowl, almost every ad had

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Speaker 1: something to do with crypto. So it's, um, it's an

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Speaker 1: easy environment I think for people to stumble into it

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Speaker 1: and for it to be something that really appeals to them.

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Speaker 1: And what I think is so interesting about that, And

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Speaker 1: I'm glad we have managed to sort of join up

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Speaker 1: the gambling and the marketing conversation, because you know, gambling

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Speaker 1: is a relatively heavily regulated activity in a lot of places.

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Speaker 1: Your ability to willfully lose money is pretty constrained. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, there are rules that vary by states. And

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Speaker 1: some of the more recent conversation has been around Okay,

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Speaker 1: hang on, you tell me I can only get well

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Speaker 1: if I go to a casino, But now I can

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Speaker 1: do sports betting, or I can do way more things

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Speaker 1: on my phone where it's it's really easy and some

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Speaker 1: of the friction of having to go to a physical

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Speaker 1: place or removed. And you know, so folks are asking

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Speaker 1: about the wisdom, as it were, of making it easier

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Speaker 1: to do different kinds of betting and of gambling. But

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Speaker 1: almost none of that conversation has been applied to crypto yet,

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Speaker 1: or even to stock trading. Have either of you seen

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Speaker 1: anything or seen this conversation evolving to include crypto and

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Speaker 1: stop trading in that In that sense, I think what

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Speaker 1: I have seen mostly is there's this question of how

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Speaker 1: much should it be regulated because and it comes up

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Speaker 1: in gambling as well. You know, there's uh the concepts

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Speaker 1: of free will and people should do what you want. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: there's you know, your agency, and you should be allowed

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Speaker 1: to lose money if you want to with gambling, and

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Speaker 1: I do feel like that's moving over to stock trading

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Speaker 1: and crypto, and I remember, you know, when retail and

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Speaker 1: dressers were first getting into the market, they are these

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Speaker 1: conversations of you know, they're losing money, like when does

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Speaker 1: the SEC need to step in? But then some traders

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Speaker 1: themselves were I don't tell me what to do. If

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Speaker 1: I want to lose money, I can lose my money.

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Speaker 1: So it's this interesting, you know, sort of discussion about

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Speaker 1: how much do regulatory agencies both need to step in

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Speaker 1: and should thank you both, We'll be right back. How

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Speaker 1: were you able to find reputable people treating crypto rehab

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Speaker 1: in this environment? Good question, because I think that we

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Speaker 1: really tried to bring a sense of skepticism to this.

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Speaker 1: You know, the clinics that we spoke with, do have

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Speaker 1: you know, licensed therapists who are who are employed, who

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Speaker 1: use methods that might be similar to gambling addiction to

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Speaker 1: you know, more well known addictions. And so I think

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Speaker 1: that was one way that we felt that, you know,

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Speaker 1: we were speaking with people who are at least somewhat legitimate.

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Speaker 1: I think that when you look at some of the

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Speaker 1: excesses around some of the treatment, so that particularly very

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Speaker 1: expensive treatment. Yes that you know, I think there was

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Speaker 1: a whole wellness element to this, and you can see

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Speaker 1: how it could go. You could go maybe quite far um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I don't think we would want any

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Speaker 1: person who was struggling with this to think, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: need to shell out thousands of dollars to go somewhere. Um.

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Speaker 1: The main character in the story quit cold Turkey. So

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Speaker 1: I think that being cautious here is really important. Claire,

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Speaker 1: any thoughts on in addition to us all all being

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Speaker 1: cautious in what is a very complicated topic. You know,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned this idea of free will and of agency,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Charlie, you didn't use this word, but

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of libertarians in crypto right there. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people who are like, do not

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Speaker 1: tell me what to do in any part of my life,

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Speaker 1: and especially you, the government's sovereign state that I don't

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Speaker 1: trust to start with, don't tell me how to how

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Speaker 1: to deal with my money. Do you think that or

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Speaker 1: my my non fiat? Do you think that hasn't any

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Speaker 1: way complicated what could otherwise be fruit full conversations for

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Speaker 1: people who might be struggling or for people who might

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Speaker 1: have questions. I think definitely. And I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: even this discussion around what is addiction can be uh

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why people who need help maybe

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Speaker 1: don't get help. They don't realize they have an addiction,

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Speaker 1: or they you know, they think they don't even know

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Speaker 1: about options for treatment. And and I do think that

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Speaker 1: there are lots of people out there who think they

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Speaker 1: should be able to do whatever they want and that

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Speaker 1: if they lose money, it's on them. There shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: rules around it. And I think that it's all kind

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Speaker 1: of connected, right, it's our current political atmosphere, and it's um,

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Speaker 1: you know, how much government oversteps should there be, how

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Speaker 1: much regulation should there be? And so it's you know,

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Speaker 1: and and there are lots of different kinds of people

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Speaker 1: that trade. Crypto is a thing. I mean, there's definitely

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Speaker 1: a stereotype of, you know, a certain kind of crypto trader,

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Speaker 1: but there's there's many of them, and so I think

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Speaker 1: that it varies based on the person, why they're investing,

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Speaker 1: what their mindset is around it. Um. But I do

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Speaker 1: think for many of them, you know, they would be

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Speaker 1: appalled at the idea of people taking away their their

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Speaker 1: right to trade this as much as they want. You know, Charlie,

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Speaker 1: when you when you were doing reporting, did you find

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Speaker 1: that these the folks that you were talking to are

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Speaker 1: the folks who identify themselves or for what the experts saying.

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Speaker 1: Were there similarities about them? Were they were they already

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Speaker 1: in treatment for other things? Was this more of a

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Speaker 1: manifestation of other stuff that was going on? And where

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Speaker 1: there are people who were like, I'm totally fine everywhere

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Speaker 1: else it's just crypto that really kind of hits the

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Speaker 1: nail on the head here, which was both of the

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Speaker 1: people that we quote in the story said they kind

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Speaker 1: of had, you know, compulsive personalities. They knew themselves, and

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Speaker 1: I thought that that self knowledge was really refreshing. Um

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Speaker 1: to have people say, look, I know that I am

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Speaker 1: quite compulsive. One of the men that I spoke with

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Speaker 1: in the UK had drug and alcohol problems. One of

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Speaker 1: the therapist at a treatment center said that often, you know,

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Speaker 1: people don't come to his center for crypto addiction. They

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Speaker 1: come because they're struggling with other addictions, maybe substances, and

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Speaker 1: then as they're unpacking what might be going on, you

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Speaker 1: see other addictions as well, and so that was the

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Speaker 1: case with with this man. One of the I suppose

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Speaker 1: one of the other questions that I found when I

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Speaker 1: was reading a piece is like, how would you know

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Speaker 1: right and do the signs manifest pretty much the same

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Speaker 1: as if you are getting diagnosed as somebody who may

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Speaker 1: have an addiction to gambling or to other substit says

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Speaker 1: in talking to those experts and those therapists, was there

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Speaker 1: anything they said that was sort of a unique to

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Speaker 1: the manifestation of people who have, you know, come out

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Speaker 1: as addicted to crypto or was it more like it

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Speaker 1: looks like these other things you see. Yeah, So I

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Speaker 1: think what was striking to me here was it's not

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Speaker 1: just about losing a lot of money or earning a

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Speaker 1: lot of money. And so some of these addicts said, oh, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: it's thrilling to win a lot, but it's also really

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Speaker 1: thrilling to lose a lot. And it's that like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: I've lost control. Um that you know seems to trigger

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Speaker 1: some reward mechanisms in the brain. Um. How do you know? Though?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you are being hurt, I

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Speaker 1: think financially, that would probably be a sign. UM. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the things that we've been touching on

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Speaker 1: here is just this culture of not wanting to be

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Speaker 1: told that you might have a problem. But I think

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Speaker 1: if people who you do trust two are telling you

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Speaker 1: that you know, this could be a problem, maybe that

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Speaker 1: there's a there's an indication there to to listen. Um.

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Speaker 1: But it all seemed to be unique. I think there

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Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily one sign like bang, you're addicted to crypto.

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Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that has happened to

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Speaker 1: retail investors in addition to equities going down is there

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Speaker 1: was a lot there were a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: were very exposed to Luna and Terra, and and those

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Speaker 1: folks were sharing some very sad stories, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: on Reddit, on Twitter and other forums about what they

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Speaker 1: had lost. And I didn't notice there was something about

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Speaker 1: the severity not just of the collapse, but of the

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Speaker 1: reaction that it was one of the first times that

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Speaker 1: I really saw mental health and people asking like are

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Speaker 1: you okay? Not just is your wallet okay? Is your

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Speaker 1: account okay? Like are you the person behind the pseudonym

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Speaker 1: doing okay? And you know, there there were there were

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Speaker 1: definitely signs that this had been pre existing, like fairly

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Speaker 1: close knit community. But it is it's heartening that at

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Speaker 1: least in some of the darker times that folks are

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Speaker 1: experiencing in markets, that there is community out there for them.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's important for us remember, you know, there's real people

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Speaker 1: behind these trades, and we live in an atomized media

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Speaker 1: environment where some people might be getting good information, some

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Speaker 1: people might not be, and some people are making choices

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Speaker 1: based on the best information that they have and that

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Speaker 1: may have been to do these investments that people in

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Speaker 1: their peer groups were telling them to do because it

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Speaker 1: seemed great. Um, And they've lost a lot of money, right,

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Speaker 1: And that has a serious impact on mental health. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's one thing to say, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: crypto addiction, how funny is that? But it's it's serious.

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Speaker 1: Um And so I'm glad we're having this conversation. And

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Speaker 1: I think too, you know, in a down market kind

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Speaker 1: of like what we're starting to experience, and you know,

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Speaker 1: make it worse, there is more sense of empathy that

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Speaker 1: comes out for people, and so, you know the difference

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Speaker 1: between someone losing a lot of money on Big Tex stocks,

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Speaker 1: which is more mainstream versus crypto suddenly becomes kind of similar,

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Speaker 1: and it's all like we all kind of lost money.

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Speaker 1: We're sort of in this together. Yeah, sometimes group think

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Speaker 1: can be good. All right, Well, thank you both for

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Speaker 1: joining me. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: Thank you. You can find more of Charlie's reporting and

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Speaker 1: of Claire's reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg dot com,

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Speaker 1: and you can find them both on Twitter. Charlie is

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Speaker 1: at Charlie w Wells and Claire is at CFB Underscore eighteen.

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Speaker 1: On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto, do you have

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Speaker 1: any beach vacation plans coming up? What if you could

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Speaker 1: combine sun, sea, sand, surf and bitcoin. This is the

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Speaker 1: latest pitch from El Salvador No One for his Beautiful coastline.

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Speaker 1: El salve Door has recently tried to become a destination

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Speaker 1: for the bitcoin faithful. There's even a Bitcoin beach on offer.

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Speaker 1: Tomorrow I sit down with report to Mike McDonald to

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Speaker 1: hear more about the how and why El Salvador's millennial

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Speaker 1: president is such a Bitcoin believer. I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael

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Speaker 1: and this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Email your questions, comments or suggestions

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Speaker 1: for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net and

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Speaker 1: you'll find us on Twitter at Crypto. The supervising producer

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Speaker 1: of this episode is Vicky Very Galina. Associate producer is

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Speaker 1: Zan Absdiki Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music

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Speaker 1: by Leo Sidron. Bloomberg's Head of Podcasts is Francesca Levi.

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Speaker 1: The Ispstan the shot ba in Astant and intend in

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Speaker 1: every