1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: And today we're talking about a woman who is not 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: a household name, but in my opinion she probably should be. 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: There are some other people who think she probably should 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: be as well. Uh. She was a Welsh scientist who 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: developed a system of thwarting radar that was invaluable to 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: the Allied forces during World War Two, and what we 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: know of her work is unfortunately entirely pieced together from 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: accounts by her male colleagues, who fortunately recognized the importance 12 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: of her contributions. So today we are talking about Joan 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: Struthers current. Joan Struthers was born February nineteen sixteen and Swansea, Wales. 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: Joan attended the Swansea Girls High School. She went a 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: scholarship to Newnham College at the University of Cambridge and 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: she enrolled there in nineteen thirty four. She studied physics. 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: Of note here is the fact that Joan, despite doing 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: all of the required coursework at Cambridge, did not get 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: a physics degree That was because it was policy not 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: to issue them two women. So when she finished her 21 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: undergraduate coursework in ninety eight, but again not a degree, 22 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: she started her doctor at work and that was actually 23 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: funded by a government grant and that work was carried 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: out at Cambridge's Cavendish Laboratory and it was there that 25 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: she met a man named Samuel Curran who she was 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: assigned as a lab partner. Yeah, this whole deal where 27 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: you could do the whole of the coursework and not 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: be awarded a degree because you're a woman like that 29 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: was not unique to Cambridge. We've talked about that happening 30 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: in other schools too. Yeah. Absolutely, that was pretty much 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: der rigor across academia and the nineteen thirties. Yea. So 32 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty, Struther and Karen were moved from their 33 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: physics work at the Cavendish Lab to Exeter and there 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: they were both assigned to research that was to help 35 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: the war effort. They turned their problem solving skill to 36 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: the development of proximity fuses. These are explosive device sugars 37 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: that since when their targets are within a specified range, 38 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: so close enough to cause damage and then detonate the 39 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: proximity fuses that Joan Struthers and Samuel Kerran developed targeted 40 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: rockets and aircraft, and they developed a very closely should 41 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: JIP over the course of the years being lab partners, 42 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: and in November nineteen forty Joan and Samuel married and 43 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: not long after the currents had said their vows, they 44 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: were reassigned. This time they were sent to the Telecommunications 45 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: Research Establishment. This was again part of the war effort, 46 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: and sam worked on centimeter radar and Joan worked in countermeasures. 47 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: The goal for Jon's work was to figure out a 48 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: way to fool enemy radar, and the team on this 49 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: project was led by Robert Cockburn under the leadership of 50 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: Reginald Victor Jones, who was a British physicist who had 51 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: become an expert in military intelligence. Just as a quick 52 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: refresher on radar, that stands for radio detection and ranging. Basically, 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: radar works by sending out a radio signal and wonder action. 54 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: It looks for a bounce or an echo of that signal, 55 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: which would indicate that their objects in the path of 56 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: the signal. Then, using the information gathered that way, including 57 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: the time it takes for the echo to return, to 58 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: the point of transmission. Radar can indicate the size, shape, 59 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: and distance of objects, so the team commissioned by Jones 60 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: had to somehow thwart that process, and so one of 61 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: the experiments that Joan Curran began was using thin metal 62 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: reflectors to disrupt the echo of radar. Large groups of 63 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: small metal strips could even mimic a large object like 64 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: an aircraft, when in reality there was nothing substantial there. 65 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: Even larger groups of strips could create large amorphous blobs 66 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: that were big enough to hide an aircraft inside. Even 67 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: if an enemy knew that a plane was somewhere inside 68 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: such a blob, Figuring out where would be a complete 69 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: guess if that blob was big enough. And Jones is 70 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: credited with coming up with this idea and then passing 71 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: it off to the research group to figure out the 72 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: particular killers and do testing, and Joan Curran really did 73 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: a lot of that research. Jones later described the concept 74 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: in this way years later in his book, which is 75 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: titled The Most Secret War Quote. The phenomenon on which 76 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: they depended was that of resonance. If a reflector is 77 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: made of a simple wire or strip of metal of 78 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: length equal to half the wavelength used by the radar station. 79 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: It resonates to the incoming radio waves and reradiates them 80 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: to such effect that it is roughly equivalent to a 81 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: whole sheet of metal whose dimensions are square and which 82 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: has sides equal in length to half a wavelength. Thus, 83 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: a few hundreds such strips or wires would reflect as 84 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: much energy as a whole Lancaster bomber. If you recall 85 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: our episode on the twenty third Headquarters Special Troops that 86 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: are known as the Ghost Army, you know that creative 87 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: deception was a valuable tool in the Allied Forces World 88 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: War two plans. But at the point when Current and 89 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: the team led by Jones were working on their radar 90 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: disruptor technology, the US was and even involved in World 91 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: War Two. Yet Current and her colleagues were leading the 92 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: effort in trickery as a military strategy, figuring out ways 93 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: that blobs of reflective material could hint at a faux 94 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: massive attack force or simply obscure one or two aircraft. 95 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: And so the practical idea of how this would work 96 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: is that a lead aircraft would drop bundles of strips 97 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: to create this radar confusion, and then dropping additional bundles 98 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: at regular intervals would create complete mayhem for enemy forces 99 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: that were trying to get a read on this situation. 100 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: This technology was given the code name Window by British intelligence, 101 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: although the U S would eventually just kind of use 102 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: the more casual term of radar chaff. Even after the 103 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: December seven one bombing of Pearl Harbor, which brought the 104 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: United States into the war, Curran's work was still in 105 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: the experimental stage. She was testing the best possible materials, 106 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: the best possible shapes and sizes for these strips. Those 107 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: decisions weren't made until two and the technology wasn't put 108 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: into use until ninety three. She performed test first at 109 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: Swantage on the aisle of Pierbeck and then later at Malvern, Worcestershire. 110 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: Everything from pieces of metal as big as slips of paper, 111 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: which were considered as a possible propaganda delivery system as 112 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: well as being part of this radar disruption. Two very 113 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: tiny wires were tested before the research led to the 114 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: decision that aluminum cut into one point five by time 115 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: strips was the best That is a little bit more 116 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: than half an inch by a little less than ten inches. 117 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: According to RV. Jones, the intention had actually been to 118 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: first use the system Joan Current had tested as early 119 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: as May of nineteen forty two. He wrote, with the 120 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: chiefs of Staff's approval, the window packets where I believe 121 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: actually loaded into bombers for a raid in May two 122 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: and then we're offloaded again because there was a last 123 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: minute prohibition of their use. And the reason for that 124 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: last minute change, according to Jones, was that Fighter Commands 125 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: Airborne radar Officer Derek Jackson had only heard about the 126 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: existence of Window right before the mission, and Jackson was 127 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: understandably concerned that those reflectors might also cause confusion to 128 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: the radar texts in the British forces, and so he 129 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: was not comfortable using a brand new technology that he 130 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: had only just heard of during an active raid. So 131 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: Window was pulled for additional testing. We'll talk more about 132 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: how this technique for confusing Germany's radar was eventually put 133 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: to use, but first we will pause or a sponsor 134 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: break RV. Jones was against withholding the use of Window, 135 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: although he also wanted to make sure that when they 136 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: did deploy it, it was at a time when it 137 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: would be the most effective and impactful In October ninety two, 138 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: British intelligence received information that indicated that the Germans knew 139 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: about this concept, having fired on a dust cloud of 140 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: aluminum particles that was thrown out of an Allied craft 141 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: in the Rhineland. Jones made the case to command that 142 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: they should absolutely used window immediately before German forces might 143 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: have a chance to figure out a way around it, 144 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: perhaps even introduced their own version of it, but his 145 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: efforts were met with dismissal. This discussion did, however, lead 146 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: to a more detailed analysis of window and how it 147 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: would impact both the Germans and the British. This led 148 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: to more specifications around the exact amounts of window material 149 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: that should be used for various results, and also the 150 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: calculations of its value in terms of potential casualty reduction. 151 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: As people were calculating these things, how much to use 152 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: and what it was what its real value was in 153 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: terms of war effort, they came up with some different numbers. 154 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: Dereck Jackson, who was that man who had halted the 155 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: initial use of window, worked on this analysis as well, 156 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: and he came up with the weight of eighty four 157 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: tons of window as the amount needed to make Germany's 158 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: radar useless. Jackson also believed to reciprocate German forces could 159 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: render Allied radar ineffective with just one ton of a 160 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: similar material. R V. Jones made his own calculation, remember 161 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: he had really um birthed this whole idea, and he 162 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: landed at twelve tons as the amount needed to wipe 163 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: out the effectiveness of Germany's radar, and then a whole 164 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: other colleague came up with the number of forty eight tons. 165 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: So they were all over the map and what they 166 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: thought it was going to require to be effective. After 167 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: a meeting on April second three, in which everyone argued 168 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: the case for or against Window based on their own calculations, 169 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: it was decided that it was worthwhile and that a 170 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: request would be sent to the Prime Minister to use 171 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: it as soon as possible. The case had to once 172 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: again be made to Winston Churchill, with some members of 173 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: the British military still in opposition to using Window, but 174 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: eventually it was determined that the potential to save lives 175 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: was worth the perceived risk of disruption to British and 176 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: Allied radar ratings. At the conclusion of the meeting, according 177 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: to Jones, Churchill said very well, let us open the window. 178 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: R V. Jones, knowing that if the plan for Window failed, 179 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: he would take all the heat, sent his men out 180 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: to all of the bomber stations where this would be deployed, 181 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: to give talks about Germany's night defense systems and clearly 182 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: explain how the packets of aluminum strips were to be 183 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: deployed and at what rate. As things were finally moving 184 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: to actual use of the research that Joan Curran had done, 185 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: there were also concerns that Germany was essentially in the 186 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: exact same position with a similar radar disruptive technology that 187 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: they were fearful about putting into use. After the war, RV. 188 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: Jones discovered that Germans had definitely known about Window and 189 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: were perplexed as to why it wasn't in use. They 190 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: also tried a similar tech of their own, but the 191 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: trials went so poorly that Erman Goring had all the 192 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: reports related to these tests destroyed. Operation Gomorrah on July 193 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: was the first time that Window, the culmination of Kurran's experimentation, 194 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: was used in a bombing raid. The first night of 195 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: attacks on Hamburg, Germany were considered a success. British forces 196 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: sent seven hundred and ninety one aircraft out and they 197 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: lost only twelve. That's a one point five percent loss rate. 198 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: Similar rates that had happened without the use of window 199 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: had a six point one percent loss rate. Jones estimated 200 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 1: that seventy to eighty aircraft were saved thanks to their 201 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: parcels of aluminum strips over the course of several raids. 202 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: The next night, window was used again on our rate 203 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: in Essen. This time the disruption was so significant that 204 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: the Germans were not only unable to track enemy bombers, 205 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: but they also weren't able to track their own planes. 206 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: The loss rate for the British bombers was slightly higher 207 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: than the previous night, at three point three percent, but 208 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: this was still a substantial improvement over previous missions without window. 209 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: There were additional raids on Hamburg in the days that followed, 210 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: both by British Bomber Command and by the US. The 211 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: average loss rate for British forces was two point eight 212 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: percent averaged out over this series of bombings. While we're 213 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: talking about the success of these raids, we also have 214 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: to acknowledge the heavy civilian casualties that took place in 215 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: these attacks. The ground fires created by the bombing on 216 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: Hamburg during the second raid, there created a firestorm. The 217 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: intensity of the fires created their own wind as hot 218 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: air rows and cold air was pulled down very rapidly 219 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: that spread the flames, destroying huge swaths of the city 220 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: and suffocating people. Additionally, a tornado like effect pulled people 221 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: into the blaze even as they tried to flee. R 222 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: V Jones's account indicates that Allied forces didn't realize how 223 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: devastating these bombings were until after the fact, when casualty 224 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: estimates were placed between forty and fifty thousand people. Uh. Yeah, 225 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: you will see sometimes even lower numbers and sometimes even 226 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: higher numbers there. I will tell you this, this is 227 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: the uh one time that research for this show has 228 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: ever resulted in me having nightmares. So if you want 229 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: to go study this firestorm, please know that the images 230 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: you will see are very disturbing. The stories of survivors 231 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: are very upsetting. Um. But it's also really important that 232 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: we talked about it. So. Jones also acknowledged that this 233 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: was something that seemed very counter to what they had 234 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: been sort of preaching from the Allied side. He later wrote, quote, 235 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: we had started the war morally opposed to the bombing 236 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: of civilian populations, and now we were pursuing it on 237 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: a horrifying scale. How had this come about? And then 238 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: he goes on to discuss how that had been something 239 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: of a gradual process as the realizations came that bomber 240 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: Command could not always guarantee precision hits to targets, but 241 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: also that bomber Command was really the only thing that 242 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: was hurting Germany on the scale that was needed to 243 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: end the war. Additionally, there was a strategy in play 244 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: to demoralize the German population by striking a city filled 245 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: with industrial workers. Jones summarized all of this by writing, quote, 246 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: it was on the grounds of probable effectiveness and not 247 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: of morality that the battle was fought. At one point, 248 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: there was even a brief accusation that the Allies had 249 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: used chemical warfare at Hamburg, although that was untrue. The 250 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: source of this allegation had been some of the aluminum 251 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: strips that the Germans had recovered after a cow had 252 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: eaten them. It died the strips that have been coated 253 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: in a black paint to make them invisible at night, 254 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: and that paint did contain a small amount of arsenic, 255 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: but not enough to substantiate a claim of chemical warfare. 256 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: As another aside, because I suspect people will ask, couldn't 257 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: a cow just die from eating those strips? Um, I'm 258 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: being grown up the child of farmers. Um. Cows eat 259 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: metal all the time because often they're fed stuff that's 260 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: just kind of sloughy and filled with all kinds of craziness. Also, 261 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: they will sometimes just find things in fields. Some farmers 262 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: actually put magnets in their cows stomachs to kind of 263 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: keep those things isolated and not passed through their digestive 264 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: tract and couse mortality. Um. But yeah, it's not uncommon 265 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: for cows to eat metal. Uh. Just the same. Despite 266 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: those chemical warfare claims being abandoned, the attacks on Hamburg 267 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: and Essen had significantly di and ish both morale and 268 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: production of war material. Over the course of eight days, 269 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: the British and US bombing raids destroyed half of Hamburg. 270 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: While it initially was considered by some to be an 271 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: active retribution of the Nazi bombings of London and Coventry, 272 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: the difference in the level of destruction at Hamburg made 273 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: the ethics of war something that people inside the military 274 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: considered in a new way, even as newspapers were touting 275 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: Operation Gomorra as a huge win, and even today, these 276 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: raids and the balance of moral versus strategic decision making 277 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: continue to be discussed. We also talked about that a 278 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: lot in our episode on Sadako Sasaki and her Thousand 279 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: Cranes and the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all that. 280 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: So it came up a lot all through the war. 281 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: The system that Jones had conceived and that Joan Curran 282 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: had tested had worked incredibly well, like keeping German forces 283 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: confused as their radar failed to give them information that 284 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: they needed to defend against these bombing raids, and as 285 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: the Allied forces prepared for D Day, Curran's radar chaft 286 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: system was used to obscure the details of the planned 287 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: landings at Normandy. It was important to not only hide 288 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: the fact that Normandy was their target, but also to 289 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: misdirect the attentions of the German forces to another location 290 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: if possible. The hope was that the Allies could convince 291 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: the Germans that the planned landing was east of the 292 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: Sin River, so that they would keep most of their 293 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: troops and artillery there. And then the Allied forces would 294 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: destroy the bridges that would have enabled them to move 295 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: out of that area. So they kind of wanted to 296 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: get them in one place and trap them there. And 297 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: then to do all this, the Allies needed illusion. They 298 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: wanted to convince the Germans that a force was coming 299 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: in from the sea, and they came up with a 300 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: plan to use Window to do so. Robert Cockburn, who 301 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: had overseen the testing that Joan Curran had done to 302 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: develop Window, was the person who developed this plan. And 303 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about how that plan was executed 304 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: with some very dire results. But we are going to 305 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: take a quick sponsor break before we get into that. 306 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: On June, the day before D Day, the Lancaster bombers 307 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: of the six seventeen Air Squadron flew in orbits eight 308 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: miles long and two miles wide, slowly moving southeast at 309 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: eight nots to mimic an ocean convoy. According to an 310 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: account given to the Royal Air Force in Mayen by 311 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: Wing Commander John Bell MBE, who was part of this mission, quote, 312 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: while they were flying, there were two air crew in 313 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: the rear of each Lancaster, and I was one of them. 314 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: We were handed bundles of aluminum strip which we dropped 315 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: at approximately three second intervals through the flair shoote. The 316 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: strips varied in size and went from small to large 317 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: as we approached the French coast, and large too small 318 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: when we turned back to the English coast. A green 319 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: light indicated when it was time to throw it. The 320 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: efforts of the siv Air squadron were part of what 321 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: was called Operation Taxable, which played out along the French 322 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: coast near Coptante Fair. A second operation which made use 323 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: of window own as Operation Glimmer, made it look as 324 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: though there was an Allied force crossing a narrow point 325 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: of the English Channel. For Glimmer, the two squadron was 326 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: tasked with dropping the chaff, and the deception also included 327 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: a feint that made it appear that a massive ground 328 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: force was moving towards pat Calais. To provide additional support 329 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: for this ruse, dummy parachutists were dropped southwest of deep 330 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: and Kin in a segment of the plan called Operation Titanic. 331 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: All of these efforts combined worked as the Allies hoped. 332 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: The Germans could not get a correct analysis of enemy 333 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: troop movements and even into the following month, there was 334 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: still confusion about whether there was a large ground force 335 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: near the city of Calais. Also in June of nineteen 336 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: forty four, Sam and Joan Curran were invited to the 337 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: University of California at Berkeley to work on the Manhattan Project, 338 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: which they accepted. It was during this time that the 339 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: pair worked on the development of a scintillation counter to 340 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: measure the ionization of radiation. While Samuel Kerran has given 341 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: credit for the invention, which is still used today, he 342 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: consistently noted his wife's work on the project, and during 343 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: their time in California, the Currents had their first child, 344 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: and their daughter was born with an intellectual or cognitive disability. 345 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: The exact nature of her disability is unclear from the 346 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: readily available information, but after the war came to a close, 347 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: the Currents moved back to the UK, where Sam had 348 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: been offered a position at Glasgow University, and they had 349 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: three more children after they returned to Europe, all of 350 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: which were sons. Though her work with the war effort 351 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: was done, Joan was hardly idle from this point. In 352 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, she and Sam met with four other 353 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: couples with the goal of setting up an organization to 354 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: assist parents of children with learning disabilities. After the first meeting, 355 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: they printed a notice in the paper inviting people to 356 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: an open meeting and more than three hundred people attended. 357 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: This was the beginning of the Scottish Association of Parents 358 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: of Handicapped Children, which is an organization that still exists, 359 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: although its name has evolved to be Enabled Scotland, which 360 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: is a support and advocacy group. Joan Curran continued to 361 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: work in support of people with disabilities throughout her lifetime. 362 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: Her close ties to academia led her to advocate on 363 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: behalf of students with disabilities and work with the Council 364 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: for Access for the Disabled. Both Sam and Joan were 365 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: really outspoken proponents of the idea that education was something 366 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: that should be available to everyone, and this work that 367 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: she did was one way in which she carried out 368 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: that mission. She also served on Greater Glasgow Health Board 369 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 1: and was part of the Scottish Special Housing Association. At 370 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: the end of the nineteen fifties, Sam became principal of 371 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: the Royal College of Science and Technology, which gained its 372 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: Royal charter and became the University of strath Clyde under 373 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: his leadership. During this time, Joan founded and served as 374 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: president of the strath Clyde Women's Group. She also established 375 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: the Lady Current Endowment Fund for overseas students. In seven, 376 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: at the age of seventy one, Joan was finally granted 377 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: an honorary doctorate by the University of strath Clyde, so 378 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: finally she got her physics degree. Samuel Curran died on February. 379 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: A plaque was installed in his honor in Barony Hall 380 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: of Victorian Gothic Church at strath Clyde. Joan unveiled the 381 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: plaque in a ceremony, although she herself was terminally ill 382 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: at the time. At the event, she was told that 383 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: a walled garden at the Ross Priory, also part of 384 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: strath Clyde, was to be named after her, with the 385 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: Joan Curran Summer House to be built there. Joan Curran 386 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: died less than a year after her husband on February 387 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: and she never had any of her work published, but 388 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: her contributions to the war effort, science, and her community 389 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: were recounted over and over in her obituaries. Her obituary 390 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: in the Scotland Herald open with the paragraph quote it 391 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: is difficult to separate the lives of Joan and Sam Curran. 392 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: Although they were a very different temperaments, they made a 393 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: superb team and partnership and were devoted to each other. Nevertheless, 394 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: it is very important and Sam always emphasized this to 395 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: note that she was a considerable scientist in her own 396 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: right and in the dark days of the Second World War, she, 397 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: as did Sam, played an important part in the survival 398 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: of this country. Politician Tim Dalyall wrote an account of 399 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: his first meeting with Reginald Jones, that person that had 400 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: spearheaded the window project, and in that conversation, Jones told 401 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: him quote, in my opinion, Joan Curran made an even 402 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: greater contribution to victory in than Sam's pretty incredible, it is, 403 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: and it's one of those things. I'm glad there have 404 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: been some efforts in both Wales and Scotland over the 405 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: last probably five to eight years, of people who are 406 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: pointing out like this is a person that we should 407 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: be recognizing more than we do. And I love that 408 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: they're doing. That makes me happy. Um, I have so 409 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: much listener mail. Well, we have just come off of 410 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: the holidays, and we are lucky enough to often get 411 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: some really really lovely UM cards from our various listeners, 412 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: and I want to to read a couple of them 413 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: and then talk about one wonderful gift that arrived that I, 414 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: of course i'm in love with. The first one is 415 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: from our listener Rebecca, who just sent us a lovely 416 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: card that is a Doctor SEUs card and says thank 417 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:12,719 Speaker 1: you for all your hard work on the podcast. I'm 418 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: a big fan. I also love the behind the scenes 419 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: Merry Christmas. UM. Thank you so much, Rebecca. We are 420 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: long past Christmas at this point, but I hope yours 421 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: was great as well. We also got a card from 422 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: uh Test, Bill, Pippy and Buster. Test wrote Holly and Tracy, 423 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: happy holidays in a very merry Christmas to you and 424 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: your families. I'm a longtime listener to the show, along 425 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: with my two cats, Peppy and Buster, who are so 426 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: stinking cute. I kind of can't deal with it. That's mine, Uh, 427 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: she's my boyfriend. Bill doesn't quite get the whole podcast thing, 428 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: but that is his loss. I am going to Rome 429 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: in January, so I won't be able to go with 430 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: you two in May bummer, but I still get to 431 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: go to Rome, so no complaints. Keep up the good work, 432 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: um she can, she can pre screen it for us 433 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: and tell us all the good places to eat. That's 434 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: officially your job now. Our last one is from our listener, Shelly, 435 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: and she writes, Dear Holly and Tracy, I am a 436 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: total space flight nerd, and I loved every bit of 437 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: the Apollo eleven fifty at the anniversary celebrations this summer, 438 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: including your fascinating Thomas Harriet and John Wilkins episodes. I 439 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: got to see the Columbia command module at Seattle's Museum 440 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: of Flight, and I highly recommend it to anyone who 441 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: has the chance to see it. I think it's back 442 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: at the Smithsonian now as part of the Museum of 443 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: Flights UH Destination Moon events. I attended a great talk 444 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: by an astrobiologist titled Life on the Ancient Moon conclusion 445 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: there could have been some and I picked up these 446 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: moon photo postcards to send you. I'm glad I didn't 447 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: get around to sending them right away, because I then 448 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: saw the build an Orbiter postcard on a more recent 449 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: visit to the museum, and I could not resist getting 450 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: it as well. Thank you for all the wonderful work 451 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: you do on the podcast. I'm always rooting for more 452 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: episodes on the history of science, space exploration, and women 453 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: in stem. Yeah. So it's this cool kind of snapped 454 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: together orbiter model that you can make and it comes 455 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: in a postcard and it's really cool and I love it. 456 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: I also will echo her thing. If you ever get 457 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: to go see any of these marvelous orbiters, please do it. Um. 458 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: If you go to Kennedy and you see the Atlantis 459 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: on display, that is one of the most beautiful and 460 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: moving museum installations I think I have ever seen in 461 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: my entire life. Um, it is so good. I stood 462 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: there and cried for like forty five minutes. Um. But 463 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: I also just recommend that you go and and recognize 464 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: the amazing things. The thing I always love about space, 465 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: and I try to explain this to people, like when 466 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: I look at things like the James Webb's based telescope 467 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: or any of the space shuttles, etcetera, is that to me, 468 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: what makes them beautiful is that they are the best 469 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: of us. Those are a lot of different people from 470 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: different backgrounds who have all worked really, really hard and 471 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: come together to make something that transcends our life on Earth. 472 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: That is why I'm such a space store. Uh. If 473 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: you would like to write to us, you could do 474 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: so at History Podcast at i heart radio dot com. Again, 475 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: that is a newish email address. You can also find 476 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: us across social media as missed in History. UH. If 477 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: you would like to subscribe to the show, we would 478 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: like you to do that as well. It's a great 479 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: way to start the new year. You can do that 480 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, at Apple podcast or 481 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: wherever it is you listen. Stuff you Missed in History 482 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: Class is a production of I Heart Radios How stuff Works. 483 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I 484 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 485 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.