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Speaker 1: Hello, They're happy Wednesday. Welcome to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Chuck Podcast, another full show for you. Today we are

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Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I'm a little distracted this week because

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Speaker 1: it's Notre Dame week for my beloved Miami Hurricanes. Those

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Speaker 1: of you that do know me, no, college football is

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Speaker 1: another level of obsession for me. Yes, I'm a sports fan.

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Speaker 1: Yes I love the Packers, Yes I love the Nats.

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Speaker 1: The Miami Hurricanes football situation decides my mood, all right.

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Speaker 1: It is when I cannot read anything about college football

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Speaker 1: for twenty four hours any week that they lose, and

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Speaker 1: I can't get enough of everything. When they win, I

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Speaker 1: am fanatical. And here we are. Yes, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: the game. I'm very excited about that. When you have

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Speaker 1: My oldest is a senior. This is the one hundred

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Speaker 1: we are pushing through, the second hundred years at the

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Speaker 1: University of Miami. So and I will make this declaration

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Speaker 1: that I actually think non Miami and Notre Dame fans

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Speaker 1: would agree with this, that Miami Notre Dame is the

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Speaker 1: best national rivalry in college football in the twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: Hardstop right. There was a period of time that USC

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Speaker 1: Notre Dame was close to that. You might have said

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Speaker 1: in the forties before we had television, that Army and

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Speaker 1: Notre Dame might have been that. But when you look

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Speaker 1: at the last twenty five years of the twentieth century, yes,

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Speaker 1: you have great look Michigan, Ohio, State, Auburn, Alabama. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to sit here and say that Miami Not

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Speaker 1: Dame was bigger than those rivalries. Not going to make

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Speaker 1: that clase. But there was nothing like everybody had an

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Speaker 1: opinion about Miami Notre Dame in a way that's unusual.

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Speaker 1: Now twenty first century has not had any kind of that.

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Speaker 1: It is all in the past. But here's my favorite

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Speaker 1: little nugget. Notre Dame hasn't beatn Miami in Miami since

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Speaker 1: the stagflation days of the seventies. Then again, we're moving

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Speaker 1: into stagflation. So maybe that is a bad omen for Miami,

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Speaker 1: good omen for Notre Dame. But either way, I fully

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Speaker 1: admit that is. You know, there's a lot of things

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Speaker 1: I obsess over all the time. But given that it

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Speaker 1: is Notre Dame week, I will I will, I will

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Speaker 1: confess to that. My guest today for those are gonna

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Speaker 1: be listening to the entire extended podcast here. Maria Kamala,

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Speaker 1: she is somebody who has been on the Republican side

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Speaker 1: of the aisle but also gave advice to Democrats as well.

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Speaker 1: She's been an advisor to Chris Christy and an advisor

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Speaker 1: to Andrew Cuomo. She's advised the Kamala Harris campaign and

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Speaker 1: worked on McCain and Bush and plenty of those. So

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Speaker 1: she is somebody that is I think decidedly not in

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Speaker 1: the Trump camp and the wing of the Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: And as she will say, in some ways she is

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Speaker 1: a woman without a party these days. But she was

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Speaker 1: hired by the Kamala Harris campaign to try to help

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Speaker 1: the campaign message to Republicans. She shared with me all

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Speaker 1: the memos that she wrote. You really are going to

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Speaker 1: enjoy this podcast. It is sort of a little bit

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Speaker 1: it is. Yes, it's a little bit of looking back,

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Speaker 1: but that looking back I think is actually a blueprint

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Speaker 1: about what is it going to take for the Democrats

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Speaker 1: to move forward? And so I do hope you take

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Speaker 1: time to listen to that conversation. We even dabble a

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Speaker 1: little bit since in New York City Mayor and Andrew

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Speaker 1: Cuomo and Chris Christy, and there's some great personalities. I've

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Speaker 1: known Maria a long time, so I know any of

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Speaker 1: the conversations I've had with people I've known a long time,

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Speaker 1: I think they're always a lot more fun for you

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Speaker 1: guys to listen to. This one is no exception. Before

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Speaker 1: I get to it, I've got sort of a longer

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Speaker 1: thing i want to talk about today when it comes

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Speaker 1: to Democrats and twenty twenty eight and all of that business.

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Speaker 1: Before we get to it, obviously, we've had a lot

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Speaker 1: of as always, right with Donald Trump, there is no rest.

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Speaker 1: He never takes a day off as far as perception wise.

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Speaker 1: We can discuss whether he works that hard, if it's

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Speaker 1: really just a lot of oxygen and all of that,

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Speaker 1: but he's constantly constantly throwing stuff at the wall, making

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Speaker 1: sure there's always something that he's controlling narrative wise, to

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Speaker 1: try to do this. Every once in a while he

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Speaker 1: gets thrown off his game, right, Epstein threw him off

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Speaker 1: his game for a bit this summer. But if you

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Speaker 1: look back on Tuesday, we had that crazy Fidel Castro

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Speaker 1: like three and a half hour seminar. Right, Literally, this

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Speaker 1: is not and it gets at I mean, I'm sort

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Speaker 1: of being snarky about calling it. You know, Fidel Castro

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Speaker 1: used to give a speech and literally, you know, he'd

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Speaker 1: still be going after hour three, hour four. And that

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Speaker 1: is Donald Trump, right, he is. He almost exhausts the opposition, right,

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Speaker 1: that that's part of it. Throws so much at the wall. Right,

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Speaker 1: this cabinet meeting, obviously nothing got done, right, it was

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Speaker 1: a three and a half hour performance for everybody to

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Speaker 1: pay tribute to dear leader. But it is a reminder

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Speaker 1: how much he has changed the information ecosystem and perhaps

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Speaker 1: the expectations. Right he does. He does do one thing

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Speaker 1: that I think has been a potential positive for the country,

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Speaker 1: which is he brings everybody along on some arcane decisions

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Speaker 1: so that there is suddenly more attention to sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, he tries to do things like fire a

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Speaker 1: fed governor and all this stuff, and people get a

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Speaker 1: quick civics lesson of No, the Federal Reserve is actually

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Speaker 1: an independent agency. There's some laws that protect those folks,

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Speaker 1: and here's why it was designed not to be politicized.

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Speaker 1: So in some ways it does at least give folks

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Speaker 1: like myself, who I say, you know, when it comes

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Speaker 1: to political journalism, I think we need to spend as

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Speaker 1: much time educating the public as we do sort of

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Speaker 1: lecturing the public, right, I think, letting them know, Okay,

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Speaker 1: he's doing this, there's a law here to protect this,

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Speaker 1: here's why there's a law. And you sort of teach

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a history class, right the last time,

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Speaker 1: for instance, you know why is FED independent so important? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I've discussed this a few times, but

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Speaker 1: I had Douglas holtz Echen, who's been a long time

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Speaker 1: Republican leaning economic advisor. I say Republican leaning because data

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Speaker 1: is data. But he was an advisor to John McCain,

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Speaker 1: an advisor to Mitt Romney. He was when Republicans controlled

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Speaker 1: the House in the early odds. He was the person

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Speaker 1: they put in charge of the Congressional Budget Office. So

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Speaker 1: he certainly is associated with with right of center economic policy.

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Speaker 1: But he will tell you in the interview I did

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Speaker 1: with him a couple of weeks ago on news Fare,

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Speaker 1: you can now go check out the news Fair YouTube

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Speaker 1: channel if you want to check it out. He was saying, look,

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Speaker 1: if you want to understand what happens to a central

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Speaker 1: bank when a politician gets too involved with it. In

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Speaker 1: the present day. You just have to look to Turkey

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Speaker 1: and Aridawan, who is in some ways might be a

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Speaker 1: model for us. If you're if you're wondering, how does

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Speaker 1: a democracy slip to sort of this sort of quasi authoritarian.

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Speaker 1: There's still a democracy, right nobody. You know, the elections

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Speaker 1: themselves haven't been rigged in Turkey, but he's kind of

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Speaker 1: rigged all of government in his faith and in many ways.

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Speaker 1: If you're wondering where Trump wants to go, you actually

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Speaker 1: just go look at Turkey today. Right. He's you know,

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Speaker 1: there's been this slow creep in Turkey of getting the

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Speaker 1: government more involved, more nationalism, more socialism. We're seeing similar

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Speaker 1: things here, right, I mean, Donald Trump has embraced this

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Speaker 1: sort of nationalistic socialism, whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know, if a Democrat proposed a ten

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Speaker 1: percent stake in until, they'd be called a socialist. What

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Speaker 1: are we supposed to call Donald Trump when he proposes

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Speaker 1: to do this. I think the same word applies. It's

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Speaker 1: a socialist. And there are some constitutional conservatives out there

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Speaker 1: that are calling him just that. Eric Erickson has been

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Speaker 1: pretty crystal clear on this. You've seen that Steve Moore,

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Speaker 1: who is a friendly Trump economic advisor has referred to

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Speaker 1: the as is. He noted in an interview with me

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Speaker 1: also for Newsphere, he said, you know who the first

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Speaker 1: Democrat to raise what Trump was doing, Bernie Sanders. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he pointed this out right, So it is there is

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Speaker 1: there is some you know, we've had this presidential embrace

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Speaker 1: of socialism, and he wants to get more involved with

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Speaker 1: the economy. He wants to get the government more involved

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Speaker 1: and that and that gets me to this fed governor situation.

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Speaker 1: He's now targeting. He realized targeting Powell impacted the markets.

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Speaker 1: And the one thing we've all learned about Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: and the economy right now is that the only the

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Speaker 1: only way you can get him to back off is

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Speaker 1: if the market's creator, right liberation day markets creator, he

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Speaker 1: backs off. Uh, the threating, the threatening of Powell. At

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Speaker 1: different times, the markets have reacted badly and he's backed off.

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Speaker 1: So now he's almost trying to like test the premise.

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Speaker 1: He'd love to fire Powell early, but at this point

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want to mess there. He realizes that that

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Speaker 1: that there's almost an outsized reaction the markets would have

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Speaker 1: to that. So what is he doing? And this is

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Speaker 1: sort of what this Trump White House is. What they

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Speaker 1: try to do is they try to surface up somebody

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Speaker 1: you haven't heard of who isn't a household name. Lisa

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Speaker 1: Cook not a household name. She's gonna become one. And

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Speaker 1: he's trying to find basically test to see if he

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Speaker 1: has this authority he you know, this is a version

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Speaker 1: of testing the electric fence like in Jurassic Park, and

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Speaker 1: he's testing the courts here, right. The Supreme Court already

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Speaker 1: sort of warned him that while they are open to

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Speaker 1: this a growing aspect to executive power, that the Federal

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Speaker 1: Reserve was a separate situation. They hint, there is a

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Speaker 1: hint that there's a majority that doesn't agree with the

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Speaker 1: with Donald Trump's assertion that he can do whatever the

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Speaker 1: hell he wants with with the Fed bord of governors. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're now going to have a test in the courts, right,

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Speaker 1: There's there's no doubt that. And in some ways this

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Speaker 1: is this is the intentional act, if you will. They

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Speaker 1: don't have cause because they have no indictment, there's no

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Speaker 1: you know, there's just an accusation from a political appointee.

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Speaker 1: There is no actual formal investigation there's no grand jury indictment,

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Speaker 1: there's no anything here because it doesn't sound like this

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Speaker 1: as a prosecutable offense, even if whatever they're saying is true.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately, he's just trying to test what, you know,

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Speaker 1: can he just sort of decide what cause is and

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Speaker 1: do this? What is the extent? And so this is

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Speaker 1: what the courts are going to test here. And if

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Speaker 1: he wins here, then I think then he accelerates what

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Speaker 1: he's trying to do and he probably just fires Powell

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Speaker 1: and then he goes after all of these various independent

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Speaker 1: agencies that we've had, and we've already seen the quasi

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Speaker 1: independent agencies that we thought were above politics, the FDA

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Speaker 1: in particular, that that's not going to be the case.

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Speaker 1: That they are going to get politicized. And it's been

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Speaker 1: interesting to watch the Democratic reaction on this. They've kind

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Speaker 1: of struggled in the messaging here. Ultimately they ought to

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Speaker 1: be focused on. Look what he's do. Every time he

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Speaker 1: messes with the economy, it gets worse. Every time he

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Speaker 1: puts his hands into the economy, it gets worse. Right,

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Speaker 1: the price of eggs are going through the roof, the

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Speaker 1: cost of living in general is going up, and you know,

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Speaker 1: he keeps bringing up gas prices, right, Well, when gas

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Speaker 1: prices go down, that's usually a sign that the economy

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Speaker 1: is about the hit the crapper because economic activity is

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Speaker 1: slowing in some way. So, you know, low gas prices

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Speaker 1: is not a sign of a of a healthy economy.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, one of his you know, calling for

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Speaker 1: lowering of interest rates is certainly not is not something

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Speaker 1: you would do if you thought this was a healthy economy.

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Speaker 1: If this economy were booming with all the job growth

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Speaker 1: that Donald Trump claimed to his cabinet meeting, there'd be

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Speaker 1: no calls to lower interest rates. There'd actually be it

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Speaker 1: might even be some calls to slightly raise interest rates

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Speaker 1: or keep them steady. Right. The whole point of the

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Speaker 1: Fed sort of having this ability to go up or

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Speaker 1: down is to try to prevent a recession. And it

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Speaker 1: may be that because of tear, because of the high

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Speaker 1: cost of living here, we have it clearly there's a

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Speaker 1: job slow down. Right. All of that data is you know,

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Speaker 1: he can he can complain about the specific piece of

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Speaker 1: August jobs data, but everything else that's coming out is

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Speaker 1: very seems to confirm the general direction here. Job growth

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Speaker 1: has slowed and we may very well be in negative

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Speaker 1: job growth territory. I'll say this, I think politically, this

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Speaker 1: is one. You know, there's some things the White House

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Speaker 1: does that I understand what they're doing politically, like going

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Speaker 1: ahead and picking this fight with Democrats on crime and

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Speaker 1: big cities. This is it's frustrating the left. It is

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Speaker 1: dividing the Democratic Party on this front, and they know it.

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Speaker 1: And it is the only thing that I think voters

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Speaker 1: are sort of sighting with him on right now than

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Speaker 1: they are with trump opponents on the economy. The voters,

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Speaker 1: you know, people seem to be citing with Trump's opponents

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Speaker 1: than with Trump on this, with national security, more with

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Speaker 1: Trump's opponents than with Trump on this. But on this

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Speaker 1: single issue, I think he is you know, even an

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Speaker 1: immigration Trump is losing the plot right where you have

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Speaker 1: you still have a majority, including a strong minority of

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Speaker 1: Republicans who believe in a path to citizenship, who are

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Speaker 1: not crazy about this mass deportations, et cetera. So really

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Speaker 1: the one thing, and I think it means that as

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Speaker 1: this economy gets weaker, as the political climate looks tougher

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Speaker 1: for Republicans, because this economy gets weaker and weaker and

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Speaker 1: costs keep going up. The one thing the White House

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Speaker 1: is going to press their foot on the gas on

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Speaker 1: is is in finding a way to insert themselves into

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Speaker 1: law and order politics in the big cities. And they're

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Speaker 1: being you know, they're they're you know, they're not going

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Speaker 1: to Jackson, Mississippi. They're not going to Memphis, Tennessee. Right,

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Speaker 1: They've yet to pick a city that is run by

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Speaker 1: in a state with a Republican governor. I don't think

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Speaker 1: they're going to do that right. All of it is

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Speaker 1: going to be designed with this. You know, find a

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Speaker 1: blue city in a blue state and try to single

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Speaker 1: it out that way, and you see it. Right, You've

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Speaker 1: seen the mayor of Chicago react in a way it

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Speaker 1: is not I think he hasn't taken the right tactic here.

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Speaker 1: I think mere Bowser took the way like, hey, great,

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Speaker 1: we need some more resources. Now. How you're doing about

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Speaker 1: it is not the way I would do it. I

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Speaker 1: need more help hiring cops. I need more money for

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Speaker 1: after school programs. I need more money for all of

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Speaker 1: these things. Just surging National Guard troops who really are

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Speaker 1: not equipped to do day to day policing is barely

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Speaker 1: a temporary solution, right, what we've seen in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: It's no solution at all. It is it is literally

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Speaker 1: you only see the presence of the guard and the

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Speaker 1: tourist locations, which tells you that this is more performative

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Speaker 1: than it is actually about helping Washington, d C. Police

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Speaker 1: streets and places that are under police. The most over

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Speaker 1: police section of Washington DC is the area between Constitution

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Speaker 1: Avenue and Independence Avenue. There are so many different law

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Speaker 1: enforcement agencies that have jurisdiction there. They're all over the place.

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Speaker 1: You can't keep track of them on how many of

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Speaker 1: there are, so it is a complete absurdity. And yet

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Speaker 1: if you want to have a conversation about the other

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Speaker 1: side of Anacostia, the Anacostia River, plenty of residents there

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Speaker 1: would love to see more beat cops on the street.

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Speaker 1: So it is obviously designed to be performative. But here's

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Speaker 1: the thing it does. Not only does it play to

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Speaker 1: the President's base, it plays into this perception that Democrats

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Speaker 1: are soft on this, and then you have the divide

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Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party which only then reinforces the softness.

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Speaker 1: So this is a classic Hey, if you can find

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Speaker 1: an issue that divide your opponents, you're winning, and this

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Speaker 1: is one of those issues that is dividing right now Democrats,

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Speaker 1: and they've not come up with a sort of a

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Speaker 1: coherent response to this. Perhaps they should be just focused

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Speaker 1: on cost of living, right, talking about it as a distraction.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, these cities need

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Speaker 1: more resources from the federal government, and this Congress pulled

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Speaker 1: these resources away from the federal government. Unfortunately, this is

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Speaker 1: something that might get worse than a lot of cities

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Speaker 1: because you know, all of the excess money that the

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Speaker 1: federal government had been giving to cities basically since COVID

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Speaker 1: is drying up, and that's only going to make this

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Speaker 1: more difficult. It's only going to make this harder. And

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Speaker 1: in some ways, as the divisive way that Trump's going

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Speaker 1: about this, it actually hurts police recruiting. Right, If you

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Speaker 1: turn police officers into this political pawn, you're you're gonna

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Speaker 1: plenty of people are gonna be like, I don't want to,

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Speaker 1: I don't, I don't I don't want to automatically have

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Speaker 1: half the country not like me or half. You know

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Speaker 1: this is and you know this has been Trump's method, right,

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Speaker 1: he never wants to unite the country. His instinct is

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Speaker 1: always divide, divide, divide, that's always where he's going. It's

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Speaker 1: been good politics for Donald Trump. It's been bad for

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Speaker 1: the country. Frankly, it's been bad. Right. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: not a unified country. We're an extraordinary how how ununified

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Speaker 1: are we we? Now? We now are going to have

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Speaker 1: like different health rules depending on the state that you

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Speaker 1: live in. Like the governor of Illinois just signed a

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Speaker 1: bill that essentially said, hey, this, the state will recognize,

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Speaker 1: you know, medicines they had FDA approval, you know before

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, if they somehow get the approval yanked

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Speaker 1: by Robert Kennedy and his crazy anti vax crew and

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Speaker 1: so so you know, we're literally going to have different

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Speaker 1: standards of health, different standards of law enforcement, different standards

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Speaker 1: of a lot of things based on the state you

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Speaker 1: live in. I mean, we're already used to this a

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Speaker 1: little bit, but we're starting to see brighter and brighter lines.

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Speaker 1: That's not healthy for this nation. And that you know

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Speaker 1: that starts from the top. This is intentionally divisive, and

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Speaker 1: it is it's bad for the country. And so look,

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Speaker 1: I think two things are going to be true about

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Speaker 1: what we're witnessing. One is this FED thing. This is

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Speaker 1: about testing the courts, and we'll see what the courts say.

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Speaker 1: I think he's going to lose this one and lose

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Speaker 1: it Bigley. Look, he's still eventually going to get his way.

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Speaker 1: He's going to get his new FED chair. And that's

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Speaker 1: not healthy, that's not good. The last time a president

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Speaker 1: had this much influence on a FED chair was Richard

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Speaker 1: Nixon and Arthur Burns, and it led to the arguably

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Speaker 1: the third worst period economically in this country's history, counting

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Speaker 1: the Great Depression and the Great Recession is one and two.

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Speaker 1: And so if you would like, if you think Turkey's

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Speaker 1: got a great economy, memo to folks, it does not.

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Speaker 1: As the narrator might insert here, you're going to love

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Speaker 1: this politicized economy that he tempts to do here, which

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Speaker 1: of course I don't get. This is why, politically, I

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Speaker 1: think this is so stupid. Right, any political strategies would say,

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Speaker 1: why do you want why do you want more control

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Speaker 1: over these things? Because then there's only one person to blame. Right.

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Speaker 1: I also think being mayor of every city is something

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Speaker 1: he's going to regret. Right, he is obsessed with inserting

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Speaker 1: himself into every story, obsessed with inserting himself into every problem.

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Speaker 1: But what he is going to send the message in

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Speaker 1: is that, Okay, it's all his fault now, right, whatever

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Speaker 1: you don't like, it's Donald Trump's fault, pure and simple.

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Speaker 1: And in many ways, he's basically raising his hand and

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Speaker 1: saying no, no, no, no. You could you could say it's

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Speaker 1: you know, at least he's willing to take responsibility, or

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Speaker 1: he's willing to put himself out there, but we know

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Speaker 1: he doesn't usually take responsibility when things go wrong. He'll

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Speaker 1: still try to find a way to blame somebody else.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he'll blame independent podcasters like myself, right or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But he's he's always looking for someone else to blame.

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Speaker 1: But in some ways, there's going to be fewer and

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Speaker 1: fewer other people to blame. Few other notes that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to sort of you know, this is Wednesday, This

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Speaker 1: is my sort of notebook day before I get to

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Speaker 1: my larger point here on what my substack story was.

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Speaker 1: So Donald Trump inserting himself into sports again, this time

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Speaker 1: with Roger Clemens. Apparently, if you're you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: whole slew of baseball players not in the Hall of

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Speaker 1: Fame who have statistics that say they should be in

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Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame. Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmerow,

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Speaker 1: Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, you know most of these. So

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Speaker 1: apparently what you ought to do if you want to

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Speaker 1: get you know, somebody to care about your cause to

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Speaker 1: get in the Hall of Fame is go golfing with

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Speaker 1: the president. Roger Clements goes golfing and the President just

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Speaker 1: speaks out on him. I'm I'm sure Rafael Palmarrow and

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Speaker 1: Mark McGuire are going, hey, maybe I should go golfing

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Speaker 1: with the president and see if they will start to

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Speaker 1: start to take up my cause to be in the

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Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. But what's interesting is is sort of

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Speaker 1: the pattern here of Donald Trump. He always gravitates to

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Speaker 1: somebody that has been punished for cheating, right, cheating on

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Speaker 1: their morals, cheating at sports, cheating at finances. He always went,

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Speaker 1: and you can't help but ask yourself that this is

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Speaker 1: all projection, right, I look at this when he when

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Speaker 1: he goes down there, you know, with Pete Rose or

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff, that he really doesn't respect that

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Speaker 1: some entities have their own sort of rules and that hey,

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Speaker 1: that they have a higher bar of ethics. Right, when

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Speaker 1: any sort of entity has has high ethics, he seems

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Speaker 1: to want to be he want to disregard them, right.

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Speaker 1: He really is a you know, you're either a winner

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Speaker 1: or a loser. And to him, Roger Clemens was a winner.

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Speaker 1: Who cares what he took to keep his fastball lively

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Speaker 1: for twenty years when most people couldn't do that? Right?

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Speaker 1: Who cares what Barry Bonds? Did? You know? He was

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Speaker 1: a winner? Right? And if you're a winner, winners have

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Speaker 1: to cheat a little bit to get ahead. That's the

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump mentality. And you know this is just the

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Speaker 1: small thing. But you know, I think we all wish

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Speaker 1: our presidents were role models. Right. There was this idea

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid that that in theory. I

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Speaker 1: think all of our parents when I was being brought

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Speaker 1: up in the seventies, they wanted to believe that the

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Speaker 1: that the president should be someone you looked up to,

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Speaker 1: that their behavior would be someone you looked up to.

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Speaker 1: There's no doubt most you know, I would be appalled

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Speaker 1: if any of my kids behaved like Donald Trump. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, I mean it would be any any any

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Speaker 1: relative that behaves like Donald Trump is out of my life,

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Speaker 1: any individual who behaves like Donald Trump, right, And I

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Speaker 1: think my guess is I'm not alone here, including among

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Speaker 1: folks who vote for Donald Trump right, who would not

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Speaker 1: tolerate that behavior in their own households, but they go

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Speaker 1: ahead and rationalize it because they've somehow been convinced or

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Speaker 1: brainwashed that the Left is worse, and you know it is.

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Speaker 1: It is sad. But I look at this, and look,

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Speaker 1: I'm somebody whoinks Clemens should be in the Hall of Fame. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I think the word fame is the single most important

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Speaker 1: word in these hall of Fames. It's who's famous, right,

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Speaker 1: These people matter. Clemens has all these cy youngs. Now,

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Speaker 1: we can wonder if it was tainted, but you know what,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, he and bonds where I guess superhuman right

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Speaker 1: in that it showed that they were they were great

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Speaker 1: without it, and then they started to take the extra

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Speaker 1: help and it made them almost super human.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 1: It's also why I buyer Greg Maddox so much, because

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Speaker 1: Greg Maddox and Roger Clemens, Right, Clemens nothing but throwing

428
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,479
Speaker 1: hard and it's all gas. Maddox couldn't get over ninety two,

429
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: and yet they both have almost identical number of wins

430
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: all time and in the modern era. To get the

431
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty wins, to me, that's, you know, okay,

432
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: other than you know, Cy Young's got over five hundred

433
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: back in the day. But I think in the modern

434
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 1: era getting over three point fifty is astonishing. And we

435
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: know Maddox didn't get help from any sort of scientific

436
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,719
Speaker 1: labs or the cream or the cure, whatever it was.

437
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: But even so, you know, I'm just you know, if

438
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: their questions put the questions on their plaque, note that

439
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: he wasn't you know, he sort of that writers were

440
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: skeptical of how much medical science contributed to his ability.

441
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: But he belongs in the Hall of Fame. Barry Bonds

442
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: belongs in the Hall of Fame, Mark McGuire belongs in

443
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame. They were all famous in their era.

444
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: I was at the game that McGuire hit his sixty

445
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: first home run. It's still counted. The home run still counted.

446
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: He tied Roger Maris at the time, which is something

447
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: we had not seen in nineteen ninety eight. I haven't

448
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: erased that memory, so but it does bother me that

449
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: Trump likes to surface and highlight rule breakers without noting, hey,

450
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, perhaps that wasn't the right thing to do.

451
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: In some ways, He's only encouraging young kids today that, hey,

452
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how you get there, It doesn't matter

453
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: whether you have high character or not. If you're a winner,

454
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: you're a winner. Character be damned. And it's just a

455
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: bit disappointing. Two other small notes. One it's there was

456
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: this fantastic article in The Times the other day about

457
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: how you're watching what's going on in the New York

458
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: City mayor's race, and there's this we're getting close to

459
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: the supposed September first deadline that both Andrew Cuomo and

460
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: Eric Adams, right, is somebody going to get down, get

461
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: out in order to unite around an anti mom Donnie candidate? Right?

462
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: And what's fascinating is when you read all of the

463
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: stories about you know, if there is polling that says, hey,

464
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: there's a majority that doesn't want mom Donnie. Okay, there

465
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: was a but you know, you can't beat somebody with nobody.

466
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: And if you match up Cuomo, mom Donnie went, if

467
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: you match up Adams, mom Donnie went, right, maybe Cuomo

468
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: and Mom Donnie, maybe it's a closer race if everybody

469
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: gets out that's not Mom Donnie and U knights around him.

470
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: But it's fascinating to me because it's almost identical to

471
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: the conversation Republicans were having to themselves in the spring

472
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: of twenty sixteen when there were all these games, you know, hey,

473
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: maybe if everybody drops out in your knights behind one

474
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: Trump alternative, they can stop Trump. Right first it was

475
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: Cruise and Rubio, maybe they can become a ticket. But

476
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 1: then they couldn't agree who was going to be one,

477
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: who is going to be two? And then Kasik and

478
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: Cruse were both calling for the other to get out, saying, hey,

479
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: if I get a one on one, I can beat Trump.

480
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: And there were all this hand ringing and all. Of course,

481
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: the problem in all of these scenarios is if somebody's

482
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: got to give up their ambition, right, And what you

483
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: found out in the twenty sixteen race, right, Rubio couldn't

484
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: was not going to essentially concede to Cruz. Cruse wasn't

485
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: going to concede to Rubio, Kasik wasn't going to do that.

486
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: You know, they all they couldn't do it. And you're

487
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: seeing almost the identical thing happen here with the New

488
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: York City mayor's race among all the non Mam Donnie candidates.

489
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: It is interesting how Mam Donnie, the rise of Mam

490
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: Donnie is so similar in someone and the reaction to

491
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: it and this and the inability to stop it is

492
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: so reminiscent of the rise of Trump in those Republican primaries. Anyway,

493
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: I just think it's uh, I think there's a lot

494
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: more there. I think that you know that when you

495
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: have this outsider that captures the imagination, the establishment, you know,

496
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: gets sort of so nice, and they they're sort of

497
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: it's almost like they got hit in the face and

498
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: they're still sort of dizzy, but they're trying to They're

499
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: trying desperately to come up with a with a with

500
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: a counterpoint, and they really sort of are missing it, right.

501
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: I think ultimately the establishment Republicans missed what made Trump work,

502
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: and it was the fact that he was willing to

503
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: buck party and the fact that he was willing to

504
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: do these things. And I think in the same way

505
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: Cuomo and Adams they don't quite get why why Mom

506
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: Donnie did get traction and if you don't understand why

507
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: they got traction, just becoming the alternative. And that's the

508
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: other thing. These these anti campaigns rarely work. I mean,

509
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: I guess you could say it worked with Joe Biden.

510
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: You know, look, we know what you don't like. Let's

511
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: you night around what you don't like. It kind of

512
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: worked in twenty two, but it took a pandemic and

513
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: a colossal mismanagement by the president of that pandemic pandemic

514
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: for it to work, because without the pandemic and just

515
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: a simple anti Trump coalition wasn't gonna win. Didn't work

516
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: in sixteen, didn't work in twenty four, and it likely

517
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't have worked in twenty either without without the pandemic.

518
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: And then finally, I am just throwing this out there

519
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: because it would be a fascic. So Howard University abruptly

520
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: lost it. It's the president, the current president of Howard

521
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: abruptly resigned literally basically right at the start of school

522
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: about about a week ago. And you're just like, WHOA,

523
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: So I don't we don't know the whole story, but

524
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: that's one of those The timing is sort of a

525
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: head scratcher. The former president's coming temporarily as an interim.

526
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: But you know it would be an interesting development, is

527
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: if Howard, you know, diversity, reached out to Kamala Harris

528
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: to see if she was interested in the presidency there

529
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: she's an alum. It likely would be wildly popular among

530
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: the lumps, among donors, and it would put her in

531
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: some ways. She'd both be stepping away politically in twenty

532
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: twenty eight and at the same time at the front

533
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: lines of trying to restore academic institutions and academic independence

534
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: in the face of this administration. So I have no idea.

535
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: All I can tell you is there's an opening at Howard.

536
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris is an alum at Howard. I have no

537
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: idea if this interests her. I have no idea of

538
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: Howard's board board of trustees would want her. But I

539
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: will just tell you it would be a fascinating development

540
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: if you had a president Kamala Harris residing in Washington, DC,

541
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: dealing dealing in the world of academics as Donald Trump

542
00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: declares war on academia. Something to ponder there. So, and

543
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: that moves me to a little bit of the heart

544
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: of my substack column this week, which is is trying

545
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: to figure out sort of and it's I'm just going

546
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: to put it simply, you know, one of the things

547
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: I plan on doing now once a week and it'll

548
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: be on these Wednesday shows. It's a come up with

549
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: a top five list.

550
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: Jazz top tops.

551
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: Yes, I know I'm playing to the algorithm, so what okay, right,

552
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to at least try to do it in

553
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: ways that are intellectually interesting. And when I was coming

554
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: up with this sort of a top five list for

555
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: this first one, so it's, you know, and I'll go

556
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 1: all over the place. I might do underrated college football

557
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: programs at some point, I'm not going to do that

558
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: one today. What I was going to do is sort

559
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: of who's had the best twenty twenty five so far?

560
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: If you're a Democrat trying to position yourself as a

561
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: viable candidate for twenty twenty, it doesn't mean you're a

562
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: front runner. If you've made my top five list. It

563
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you pull the best. If you've made my

564
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: top five list, it simply means who's had the best,

565
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: who's had the best sort of who's put themselves in

566
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: a position that's been that's strengthened it's put themselves in

567
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: a better position today than they were at the start

568
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: of this calendar year. And so I will tell you this,

569
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: I think the five that I would put in here

570
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: right now on this front, I think it's pretty clear

571
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: nobody's had a better six weeks right now than Gavin Newsom. Right,

572
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: six weeks ago. Who's the leader of the Democratic Party?

573
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: Yet I got in Crickets? Is it Jeffreys, is it Schumer?

574
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: It's a Barack Obama. Still it's Kamala Harris, right. You know,

575
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: if you offered a list, I think Kamala Harris would

576
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: come out on top. It usually the previous whoever the

577
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: previous nominee of a party is sort of always is

578
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: a default pick when you ask these question, sort of

579
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: in the first year after a presidential election. So, but

580
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: I think unequivocally right now in this moment, Gavin Newsom's

581
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,239
Speaker 1: the leader of the Democratic Party. This redistricting fight has

582
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: given him a voice he has obviously he's the field

583
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: general here in the response to Texas. In some ways

584
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: Republicans would love to have Gavin as the face of

585
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: the party, So both of them have leaned into it.

586
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: I think the base of the party's fired up that

587
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: Gavin's willing to fight. I'm not gonna plenty of You

588
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: know what I think of this strategy long term, I

589
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: think it's a it's a I think it's a bad move.

590
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: But if you're talking about Gavin Newsom's politics at a

591
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: time when the Democratic base is desperate for a fighter

592
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: and they don't have one at the DNC, they don't

593
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: have one with the House Democrats, they don't have one

594
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: with the Senate Democrats, I get it. So Gavin's the

595
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: fighter right now, and I think it's is It is

596
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: probably going to translate into you'll start to see when

597
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: they ask the very early primary polling of who's your

598
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: preference to be the nominee twenty eight, I imagine Gavin

599
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: is going to be in the first slot in the

600
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: next six to eight weeks. Now, he's going to have

601
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: a huge test, right if he loses this referendum, you know,

602
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: it's probably a big blow to any chances he has.

603
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: And look, I'll admit I'm still a bit of a

604
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: skeptic and a former mayor of San Francisco can get

605
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: elected president of the United States just because of how

606
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: we culturally liberal. The perception of the of of how

607
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: culture liberal San Francisco is, and I just think it.

608
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: You know, we've seen how successfully the ripe is the

609
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: right has been able to demonize that. But I think,

610
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: to make no mistake, he'd be in mine. He's so

611
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: in my one slot is Gavin In my two slot

612
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: is somebody that isn't going to show up very high

613
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: in the polls right now, But it's Reuben Diego. And

614
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: in fact, I have this column about sort of there's

615
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: sort of in today's in my sub stack update this

616
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: week that notes that sort of, look, there's been three

617
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: successful models archetypes for Democrats to win the presidency when

618
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: they've been out of power, right, and I sort of

619
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: I don't count Biden. Biden is sort of the acception rate.

620
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: Biden is the only president in one hundred years Democratic

621
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: side to win the presidency as a Democrat after having

622
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: lost a campaign for the president presidency in a previous year.

623
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton won the presidency the first time he ran.

624
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 1: Barack Obama won the presidency the first time he ran.

625
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter won the presidency the first time he ran.

626
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: John Kennedy won the presidency the first time he ran.

627
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: So you know, we can have a debate about whether

628
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: FDR being on the ticket as a VP nominee counts

629
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: or not as somebody having run before he actually run

630
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: ran himself for president. But that was in the arguably

631
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: the pre primary era. So if you really look in

632
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: the primary era of presidential polaceolitics, that has been the norm,

633
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: and there's sort of different archetypes that each fit in, right,

634
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, sort of Carter was the candidate that rose

635
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: because the nation wanted to cleanse itself from the corruption

636
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: of Richard Nixon and the sort of the immorality of

637
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: Nixon's presidency and his faith was grounded in fact. There's

638
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: a few candidates out there that I think might look

639
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: there look similar to that. Bill Clinton was the guy

640
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: who came in. Everybody thought he had too much baggage

641
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: to win a national election, too much questions about his

642
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: personal life, but he proved to be a fighter. Right,

643
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: does that ring familiar? I put Gavin Newsom in that column,

644
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: and then Barack Obama was sort of the fresh face

645
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: to turn the page. Aren't we tired of that old politics?

646
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: It's time to have a new conversation? And this is

647
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: the category I put Reuben gego In. You know, here's

648
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: somebody who when he first got in, I thought, oh,

649
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: he's going to be compartmentalized as the super lefty primary

650
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: challenger a the Kirsten Cinema. But he effectively didn't get

651
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: pigeonholed as a far left candidate, and he really moved

652
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: on the issue of border security, sort of very much,

653
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: sort of putting himself in line in some ways to

654
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: the right of Mark Kelly on some issues when it

655
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: came to border security and immigration. He won a close

656
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: race in a state that Donald Trump carried. That's a

657
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: pretty good it's a pretty good thing to have on

658
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: your political resume right now. And look, this is a

659
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: barrier that Democrats haven't broken in the presidential level, which

660
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: is to nominate somebody of Latino descent, either as a

661
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: president or a vice president. So you put him in

662
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: that sort of Barack Obama column, if you will. So

663
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: I think he's had the second best summer right now

664
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: behind Gavin Newsom. It's sort of putting themselves in to

665
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: the top tier of the president. Doesn't mean he's I'm

666
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 1: saying he's he's not. You know, he may not pull

667
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: past three percent for the next two years, but I

668
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 1: think as far as donor awareness and activist awareness, he's

669
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: had a pretty good and he's, by the way, been

670
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: to both Iowa New Hampshire this summer. And I'd say

671
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: that the other candidate that I put on putting in

672
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: the three slot is somebody that nobody counts as a

673
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: presidential candidate yet, and it's James Tellerrisco, which is the

674
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: state legislator down in Texas, who reminds me the sort

675
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: of the buzz that's growing around him actually reminds me

676
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: of the buzz in twenty seventeen around the mayor of

677
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: South Bend who ran a failed campaign for DNC chair

678
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: but became a popular person to start booking. Hey, this

679
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: is a new fresh face inside the Democratic Party. Their

680
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: first millennial, can you know, their first sort of millennial

681
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: spokesperson who sort of, you know, seems to be not

682
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: a little bit different than what we're used to, and

683
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: it was Pete Footagge and Telerisco reminds me of a

684
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: combination of Pete Buotagge and Jimmy Carter. And there's a

685
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: chance that that is maybe that you know, I don't

686
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 1: know if that's going to be what the voters want

687
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: in twenty eight. But I think he's put himself in

688
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: a position where he suddenly, you know, people are looking

689
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: for a new voice, people are looking for a younger,

690
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: generational change. He's checking a lot of these boxes. And

691
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately for Pete Budaget, he's run before. And

692
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: if you if the pattern holds where you know, it's

693
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: tough to be a fresh face a second time, right,

694
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: you only get to be the fresh face once. So

695
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: I think he in some ways Taal Risco was the

696
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: face of the Democrats who fled out in Texas. Being

697
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: grounded in faith, I think is a strength, particularly in

698
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: a general election that is underrated, especially if it comes

699
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: from the Democratic side. Right, there's this perception that Republicans

700
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: are more religious than Democrats. I think that would play

701
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 1: well in the Midwest. So I just I put him

702
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: at number three on sort of having you know, he

703
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: put himself on the map. Okay, nobody was saying that,

704
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: the even thinking about him in those terms. And maybe

705
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 1: you know this is why if I were in his shoes,

706
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: I don't I might if I run for anything, I'd

707
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: run for governor at Senate, right, I'd stay out of

708
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 1: the federal issues, and I'd make abbot if he decides

709
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: to run statewide. But he's somebody I wouldn't be shocked

710
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: to see on an early debate stage sometime in the

711
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: fall of twenty seven. And then the next two i'd

712
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: put down is sort of four and five on this

713
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: list is Andy Basheer and Wes Moore, who they've you know,

714
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: they've been you're watching them in some ways, they've been

715
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: out maneuvering, you know. I think we all expected Joshapiro

716
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 1: to be a little more aggressive, and he's been much

717
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: less aggressive, sort of talking up his own potential presidential candidacy.

718
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: I think he wants to secure a second term first

719
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: versus you know, Basher's you know, he's he didn't know,

720
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: he's not running for reelection. He doesn't have to run

721
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: again himself. And in Wes Moore, I think is a

722
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: little safer politically right. I doubt the only person that

723
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: could give west Or a race in twenty six would

724
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: be the former governor Larry Hogan. And while well, I

725
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: think he joked about it on social media a couple

726
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: of weeks ago, I'd be shocked if he wanted to

727
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: go through the mass of trying to navigate Trump in

728
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: a Republican party, even though the Maryland Republican Party would

729
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: probably be a little bit more open to him being

730
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: anti Trump than anyplace else. It doesn't make a lot

731
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: of sense to me. And I think both More and

732
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: Bashir have done the inside game pretty well. They both

733
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: traveled to some key early states. Basher showed up at

734
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: the Akim Jeffreys money gathering out of the West Coast

735
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: and was sort of a featured speaker there. So he's

736
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 1: starting to meet those donors. So, you know, so in short,

737
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: I think those you know, like I said, some people

738
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: wears Shapiro. Where's AOC. I think AOC had a really

739
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: good spring, she sort of ratcheted back, and I'm you know,

740
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: who's the leader of the progress Is it Bernie Sanders

741
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: or is it AOC? And I think until the handoff

742
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: is complete, it feels like Bernie Sanders is not ready

743
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: to give up the torch, right. He still wants to

744
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: be the leader of the progressive movement, And so until

745
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: that's fully handed off to her, that's why I don't

746
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: quite her. I certainly put her out there as a

747
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: wild card in this, and I think she's a formidable

748
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: candidate if she runs. Don't get me wrong, but I

749
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: do think the fact that Bernie's not ready to leave

750
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: the stage and to sort of hand it hand the

751
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: organization fully to her yet And maybe he will, and

752
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: maybe that is the plan come twenty twenty six and

753
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: twenty twenty seven. But that is why I've left her

754
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 1: off this list. I've left Whitmer off this list because

755
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: I do think the shine has faded a little bit

756
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: with her, fairly or unfairly. I think the Michigan looks

757
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 1: like a you know, it wouldn't be good for Whitmer's

758
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: chances is if she's replaced by an independent or a

759
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: Republican so and that's why I don't think this has

760
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: been a great for her, if you will, on that front.

761
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 1: And I do think that infamous photos one that's always

762
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: gonna leave with her where she's in the Trump Oval office,

763
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: which has been good for Michigan working with Trump. I

764
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: think she's figured that out, but she can't be afraid

765
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: of it. And I think putting up that folder is

766
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: a moment that it's going to be hard to shake

767
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: for her long term. Right, That's one of those pictures

768
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: you feel like that could just haunt her if you will.

769
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: So my top five this week is the five potential

770
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: presidential candidates who've had the best summer and who've probably

771
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: made the most progress at getting to their goal of

772
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 1: being a viable top tier presidential candidate. Gavin Newsom in

773
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: the one, Slack, Ruben Gayego in the two, Tell Risk

774
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: Go in the three, Basher and more. I'll put them

775
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: in either order. I don't really I guess I'd go

776
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: Beser four, More five, but you know, we could swap

777
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: it and it wouldn't be a huge argument there. Do

778
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: check out the substack. I go through the different variables

779
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: of you know, who's who's running as a Carter archetype,

780
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: who's running maybe as a Bill Clinton archetype, and who's

781
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: running as a Barack Obama archetype. I do think that

782
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: when you see these various candidates raise their hand as

783
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: potential nominees on the Democratic side, ask yourself which one

784
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: they fit in, Because ultimately, and this is the real challenge,

785
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: whoever is the next nominee of the Democratic Party is

786
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: I do think you have a country, you have a

787
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: Democratic party that wants a fighter. You have a sort

788
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: of the middle of the electorate that's exhausted as looking

789
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: for a uniter, right. I think that's where where where

790
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 1: you have sort of the never trumpers are, and then

791
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: you have a group of independents who are looking for

792
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: somebody who's willing to put country over party, right, So

793
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 1: they're looking for you know, while the Democratic Party wants

794
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: a fighter, the voters that may decide who wins or

795
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: loses the election want somebody that's willing to buck their

796
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: party every once in a while. Right, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama,

797
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: we're both really good at doing both right, giving the

798
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: base what they wanted, and at times picking and choosing

799
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: ways to push to maybe go against a stereotype play

800
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 1: the unity card, so that they both were nimble enough

801
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: to be able to sort of to do both. Ronald

802
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: Reagan on the Republican side, is probably the best example

803
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: of somebody that could both fire up a base and

804
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: at the same time project this idea that he was

805
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: a unifier. Certainly that is not Donald Trump's mo right,

806
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: Donald Trump only knows one. Speed, only knows one. He

807
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: does not know how to straddle a fence. So anyway,

808
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that little rundown of twenty eight

809
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: and it's actually a terrific primer for my interview with

810
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: Maria Kamelo. So for those of you listening to the

811
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,439
Speaker 1: entire podcast in one file, we'll sneak in a break

812
00:45:52,440 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: and when we come back, Maria kamon joining me now.

813
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: Is a bit of a unicorn in the world of politics.

814
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: Maria Kamela I first met when she did work largely

815
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: for Republican candidates. She has since worked for her share

816
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: of Democratic candidates, and it doesn't mean she may not

817
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: work for somebody from either side of the aisle. But

818
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: I think the best way to describe her she is

819
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: probably as a constitutionalist, which these days I feel like

820
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: is its own separate and distinct category given what we're

821
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: watching with the extremes of both parties, trying to basically

822
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: run around with ends justifies the means mindsets these days.

823
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: I've known Maria, don't I want to say? Is it

824
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: twenty five years? Maria?

825
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 2: I think so. I feel like we were both much younger.

826
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it was the early it was the early aughts.

827
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: I think you've aged better than me. So I'm the

828
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: one losing my hair in gray. So you've got you've

829
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: got a couple of advantages there. I'd say you've got

830
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: better genes that I don't know that that might like

831
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: that's the wrong phrase these days, say I can't. I

832
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: can't say that. But one of the impetuses for this

833
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: conversation where some memos that you wrote you did work

834
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: on behalf of the Kamala Harris campaign. And actually, before

835
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: we get to the memos that you wrote that were

836
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: part of one of the What Happened in twenty twenty

837
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: four books, I say one of because there's like three

838
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: or four already and I think a couple more that

839
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: are coming. And so you've shared all of these memos

840
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: with me and Frankly, and I want to get to it.

841
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: The memos read to me like they're very they're very

842
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: relevant right now. Right what the issues that the Democratic

843
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: Party and Kamala Harris were dealing with in August, September

844
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: and October arguably are the same issues today. So I

845
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: think it's a very relevant conversation. But let me, I

846
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 1: think it's interesting. I just short changed your journey. Give

847
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 1: me the give, give give folks the five I've meant

848
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: at origin story of Maria.

849
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 2: Kamelah Gosh, the origin story you know, I think, and

850
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: this might explain why I've been able to work on

851
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: both sides of the aisle. I think from they did go,

852
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: I've always maybe I've been a little naive, but I

853
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 2: got into politics and wanted to work in government because

854
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 2: I believed in the Constitution. There were certain things that

855
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 2: I grew up with, Like my parents were always talking

856
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 2: about history at the dinner table, they were talking about politics.

857
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: Where did you grow up, Maria?

858
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 2: I grew up up State New York outside all of me,

859
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: you know, and I was and I was, you know,

860
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 2: first of both you know, generations of both my mom

861
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: and dad's side to go to college, and you know,

862
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: it was so I was raised in a way that

863
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: I think it just was sort of a lover of

864
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: like what, you know, all the possibility of this country

865
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: could be. And I saw that with my parents. And

866
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 2: I also saw how my dad always gives me a

867
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 2: hard time for talking about this, but he was someone

868
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 2: who also voted on both sides of the aisle through

869
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 2: over the years, right, so he was guided by certain

870
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: things he believed in. And you know, as it comes

871
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: to as we've kind of all come to see, like,

872
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 2: you know, the party's shift they change, like their dynamic.

873
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 2: They you know, aren't consistent in terms of the principles

874
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 2: that to find them. And I have found that to

875
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 2: be the case with myself on a personal level. But

876
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 2: I went to school in d C. And went to

877
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: college because for that reason, I wanted to be in Washington,

878
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 2: you know, intered on the hill kind of, so I

879
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: know that pattern.

880
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 1: I picked a DC school for that same thing.

881
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 2: I know, it's like where.

882
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: To be right.

883
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: And then you know, ended up doing political campaigns and

884
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: kind of got the bug. And like once you get

885
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 2: the bug, it's like hard, hard to shake it right

886
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: because it just feels like the be all and end all.

887
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 2: And you know, I started out in Republican politics. You know,

888
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 2: my first campaign was actually working for Governor George Battaki

889
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: on his third reelect here in New York, which was

890
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 2: again oh yeah, oh too yeah. So you know, a

891
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: year after nine to eleven, his third term, I think

892
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: kind of in destructive right or Republican who was able

893
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: you know, to win support from you know, constituencies and

894
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: coalitions you wouldn't expect from a Republican and you know,

895
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: went on did the Bush campaign, you know, for in

896
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 2: New Hampshire and then went to Iowa and did a

897
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: governor's race there for a member of Congress and it

898
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 2: was you know, six sort of bad year and for

899
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: republic Jim Nussell it is Jim Mussell.

900
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: You well, I'm actually doing a project with Karen Nussell. Well,

901
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: I love Karen and she's terrific. I mean, we're it's

902
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 1: a great cause. Actually we're trying to build a coalition.

903
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: It's called Trusted Media, and but it's about it's really

904
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 1: bigger than that. It's she's working with just a quick aside,

905
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: a bunch of sort of former diplomats, State Department intel

906
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 1: officers and you know, if we don't have trusted information, right,

907
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter whether you think something's biased or not.

908
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: It's about is it truthful or not right? And we

909
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: have the and the intelligence agencies, right, they need trusted

910
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: information and if we don't have it, that's how sort

911
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: of societies crumble and stuff. And it's a it's a

912
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: great group because it's a different it's not just the

913
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: the pearl clutchers of the left about local you know

914
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: about news, right, this is about the information ecosystem, which

915
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 1: to me is a bit of a bigger conversation anyway.

916
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: I just adore hair and Nustle, and I've always been,

917
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, going back to the paper bag with with

918
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: with my friend Jim Nustle, and John Kasak always says

919
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: it was Jim that put the paper bag on. I

920
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: didn't put the.

921
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 2: Pack, that is true, it was Jim, but you know,

922
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: and he was like a great you know. I mean

923
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 2: it was interesting when I think back to that time

924
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 2: because he was, you know, from the eastern part of Iowa.

925
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: His district was not predominantly Republican, so he had to.

926
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: Win very swingy district. Yeah, very union heavy, right, very swingy,

927
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: still swinging. I mean there is still a swing area.

928
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And he you know, had a way right

929
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 2: that he had to, which I think is really prescient

930
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 2: when we think about I think the Harrors campaign and

931
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 2: certainly folks today, is he actually had to earn earn

932
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: votes from people who weren't inclined to support and just

933
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 2: based on his party identity. And it was interesting because

934
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: O six was sort of like that first year after

935
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: you know, the Bush reelect and four the rogue strategy right,

936
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 2: drive out the base, so kind of every operative of

937
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 2: that era was kind of doubled down. Uh, from a

938
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: strategic perspective, and you know that that that Agel, let's

939
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 2: like run the race from the last time versus one,

940
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 2: it's obviously different. And I watched him, you know, kind

941
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 2: of struggle with that dynamic and uh, and I think.

942
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: You get a terrible first name congressman, you know what

943
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 1: I mean? In a year that That's what I always say.

944
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: It's like when you're this is it's always tough when

945
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: you're an incumbent member, when you're from Washington running for

946
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: an office not of Washington, and Washington is super unpopular

947
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: in that moment, which in that moment, it was right,

948
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 1: you know, more so than usual type of moment. You know,

949
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 1: sometimes you just can't get out from under the name congressman.

950
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's true. I also

951
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 2: think for me it was you know, it was instructive

952
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: because it was sort of seeing what happens when you

953
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 2: when you when you honestly true to your principles. And

954
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 2: I'm you know, obviously of the I understand that from

955
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:10,879
Speaker 2: political perspective, there are times where it's like not worth

956
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 2: the fight, or you know, you need to do what

957
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 2: you kind of need to do. But I think it

958
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: was the first and sort of I think a series

959
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 2: of folks that I started working for where I saw,

960
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: you know, saw saw them move away from what you

961
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: know was their brand or their core and it ultimately

962
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 2: you know, not working out, you know. And and I

963
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 2: saw that particularly, you know, going from Jim's race, and

964
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 2: I went on to the presidential and OA and worked

965
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: for Mayor Giuliani of a of a different error Mayor Giuliani,

966
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 2: but you know, I went to work from in part

967
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 2: because he was kind of like this is zoom and

968
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: I'm in this pro choice Republican and it was just

969
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 2: very clear and definitive. And you know, even when we

970
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 2: got into that race, saw you know, saw saw him

971
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 2: sort of get squeamish and look to kind of appeal

972
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: to certain constituencies. And you know, se you kind of

973
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 2: start doing that, you kind of move away from who

974
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 2: you are and primary.

975
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a primary politics trap, right like you know,

976
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: I think about it today with the Democratic Party, right

977
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 1: the base wants a fighter, swing voters want an adult

978
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: in the room, and the two don't go down in

979
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 1: hand right now, you know, no.

980
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 2: No, And he tendentially could meet somewhere, but yeah.

981
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 1: I think they kind of did, and I think that

982
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: was what they thought. I think I think there was

983
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: a belief that Biden could do that, and it turned

984
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: out he could not. Write like it was just another failure.

985
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: We'll keep the journey going. So you're on Rudy.

986
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is quite which honestly was a really

987
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: unbelievable experience and is the reason, you know, I moved

988
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: to New York and you know, haven't lapped since, so

989
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 2: you know, I'm grateful for that. And it was a

990
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 2: real training ground, you know, that race and dealing with

991
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 2: the New York press corps of an era, you know,

992
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 2: that's when Maggie Haberman was a the New York Post.

993
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 2: So you know, it's it was like you got it.

994
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 2: You earned your stripes on that race, and.

995
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: Running running for president is already right they Axrod has

996
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: that great quote an MRI from the soul when you

997
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: throw in the interest of the New York tabloids, right,

998
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: and that is that's just this added extra layer that

999
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: no other campaign had to deal with, right, And it's

1000
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 1: it is there's a reason why New Yorkers, I mean,

1001
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: which is why I think so many of us wrote

1002
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: off Trump because there was no way you could survive

1003
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: the New York tabloids unless sure Donald Trump. It turned

1004
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,879
Speaker 1: out but anyway, but but but I digress, keep going,

1005
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: So yeah.

1006
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 2: Did Rudy then ended up doing the last couple of

1007
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: months of the McCain campaign, and you know, from there,

1008
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 2: you know, thought I was kind of done with politics

1009
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: at like the ripe old age of like twenty eight

1010
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 2: and it was kind of like this is this isn't

1011
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 2: this is why I thought it was going to be,

1012
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: and ended up getting approached to go work on this

1013
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 2: New Jersey governor's race. I remember friends what I had

1014
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 2: worked with on who you know, Mike Duhaim who I

1015
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 2: worked on Bush but then ultimately worked on Rudy and

1016
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 2: then McCain, and I was he was really the reason

1017
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 2: was that mckaye called me and it was like I

1018
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 2: got this this race, who you know, we really need

1019
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: a comms person. And I was like, you know, Mike,

1020
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 2: I love you, like, but I'm not about to go

1021
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 2: do my like third losing race in a row with

1022
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 2: you because at the time, like I was like a

1023
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: New Jersey Republican for governor. You gotta be kidding me, right,

1024
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 2: But you know, as like the story goes, I did

1025
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 2: end up meeting with uh, you know, uh Chris Chrissy.

1026
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: At the time, was pretty reluctant because I think I

1027
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 2: was pretty burned out, but ended up kind of getting slowly,

1028
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 2: you know, roped in and you know, next thing, you know,

1029
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 2: he wins, and so ended up you know, spending the

1030
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 2: next six years in government, you know, working for the state,

1031
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 2: did his presidential in fifteen sixteen, and then you know,

1032
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 2: took some much deserved time off before I you know,

1033
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 2: decided I wasn't done with politics yet and went to

1034
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 2: go work for Governor Cuomo as his chiefest staff and

1035
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,240
Speaker 2: then fully got politics out of my system, at least,

1036
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:03,359
Speaker 2: you know, for the time being.

1037
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: So the private you keep saying you get politics out

1038
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 1: of you.

1039
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say it now too. I'm like, I'm totally done.

1040
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: Shock totally, of course you are. And then how'd you

1041
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: get to the Kamala Harris campaign.

1042
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 2: You know, I started my own firm two years ago

1043
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 2: after doing a couple of stints in the private sector,

1044
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: and you know that we're a small firm, but we

1045
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 2: we all kind of took we took I want to

1046
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 2: say we took a pause really to do Christie's last

1047
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 2: presidential race because it was like very personal and it

1048
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 2: just kind of felt like the right thing to do

1049
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 2: considering how you wanted to do it, and so kind

1050
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 2: of coming off of that when I was kind of

1051
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 2: you know, sort of restarting the business and you know,

1052
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: I think just actively engaged in conversations and caring about

1053
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 2: what was going to happen with the cycle. They they

1054
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 2: reached out, So that's how that started. The conversation started

1055
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 2: probably like early summer, so when Biden was still donomine,

1056
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 2: So that's actually when the conversation started, and then obviously

1057
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 2: got you know, put on pause until you know, once

1058
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 2: the debate happened, and then you know, came back around

1059
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 2: once they had Harris locked in.

1060
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: So you know, I could say, there's an interesting through

1061
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: line for you because Cuomo, Rudy and Christy more in

1062
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: common than they are, more alike than unlike yes or no.

1063
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 2: Well, I would say this is what they have in common.

1064
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 2: And I always joke with people and I have a

1065
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 2: very specific niche which is Sicilian former prosecutors, and so

1066
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 2: like love this it's true, So which is probably something

1067
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 2: I should work out in therapy.

1068
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: I mean, there's got to be a TV show this

1069
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: is this has got to be forget this is like

1070
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: you know, this is its own white lotus. I mean

1071
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: you literally go from like island to island and you're like,

1072
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 1: wait a minute. The story is the same, the personality

1073
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: is the same. What's going on now?

1074
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 2: I will say, I think people do you think because

1075
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 2: of that? But they are similar and while there's I

1076
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: think is of the Italian thing, the prosecuting, there's certainly

1077
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 2: an element of personality that can be slightly similar. They

1078
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 2: actually all are very different people and working with them

1079
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 2: from a stylistic perspective radically different, which I think does

1080
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 2: surprise people.

1081
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: Of the three, who's the biggest reader, who's the who's

1082
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 1: the one that like it's hard to keep up with

1083
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: because they're probably reading more than you are.

1084
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 2: I would think Chris Christy with like a close like

1085
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: Juliani at that point in time when I was from

1086
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 2: an O seven Oa was a voracious reader as well,

1087
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 2: So they have they have that in common, you know,

1088
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 2: to the point where like this Rudy was like this

1089
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 2: in O seven away. You know, you couldn't put out

1090
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 2: a statement on like a supreme court rolling until he

1091
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: had read it right, so he was Yeah, And Christy

1092
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 2: has shades of that. And Christy Christy reads yeah voraciously.

1093
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 2: He's reading like multiple books at any given time, so

1094
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 2: he's and he's usually ahead of the clips before you are.

1095
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: So. And of the three, who's the most self aware

1096
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: of what the public thinks of them at any given time?

1097
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: Like who truly understood? You know? Look, we all have

1098
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: an image of what we believe we are, and then

1099
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: there's the image of what you know, American sea of

1100
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 1: you right type of mindset, right, whether you're a politician

1101
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: or any sort of public figure. Of the three, who

1102
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: had the most self awareness Governor Christen, Yeah, I would

1103
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 1: have been my guests. Of the three, yeah, Justin And.

1104
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 2: I think and I don't know if that's I think

1105
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 2: it's specific to him. I don't know if it's also

1106
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:32,479
Speaker 2: maybe generational. But he always had an ability even going

1107
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: back to sort of question you know what, just to

1108
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 2: question right, and so look back and be reflective and

1109
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 2: work out differently. And I think honestly, and I say

1110
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,439
Speaker 2: this because our relationships has changed over time, and it's

1111
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 2: you know, guys could be started out at a point

1112
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 2: where I was younger and a you know sort of

1113
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 2: you know, employee boss, and you know, it's just evolved

1114
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: as I've gotten older and things have changed. But I

1115
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 2: think particularly in the last to last ten years, he's

1116
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 2: so much so he has so much so that I

1117
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 2: think when we did this last race together, I think

1118
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 2: it was I was like, I was proud to call

1119
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 2: him a friend because he was an actual human being

1120
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 2: who was unbelievably I think, reflective and willing to take

1121
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 2: responsibility frankly in a way that particularly in this day

1122
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 2: and age, and I look at you know, politicians and

1123
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 2: just sort of operatives and all of us and all

1124
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 2: of our roles in terms of kind of how we've

1125
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 2: gotten here, I think, you know, it takes a lot

1126
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 2: of self reflection, awareness and kind of guts to be

1127
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 2: able to do that.

1128
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting he got really angry at me

1129
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: over his last interview and meet the press in his

1130
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: presidential campaign because it happened to it took place the

1131
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: week the United CEO had to resign, and so what

1132
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: was it might have been an interview without any of

1133
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: those questions, and then the news happened, right, and he

1134
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: and it just and I've had this before, like Nancy

1135
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 1: Pelosi got mad at me because an interview had to

1136
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 1: change because the news happened, right, you know, And so

1137
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: I don't take it as personally, but he really, for

1138
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: a long time has held the grudge. I think some

1139
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 1: of it had to do with my own personal friendship

1140
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 1: with Bill Baroni, and so who knows how much that's

1141
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: wrapped up in there, but I have noticed it does

1142
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 1: seem as if he doesn't get stuck, I guess is

1143
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:27,760
Speaker 1: the way to you know, he doesn't get stuck in

1144
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 1: the past. You know, he's I've seen him reach out

1145
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: to some people that I think ten years ago I

1146
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: didn't think he would have done that.

1147
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's you know, hopefully we're all

1148
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: growing as people and you know, and hopefully you know,

1149
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 2: we're not also all known for like our worst moment,

1150
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 2: right or the most challenging thing we've gone through. And

1151
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 2: you know, I do think, you know, and I look

1152
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,040
Speaker 2: back at my experiences amply working in his administration, and

1153
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: you know, it was an unbelievable h ride, and you know,

1154
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 2: such high highs and low lows, and I think, you know,

1155
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 2: I know this for myself, so I can only imagine

1156
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 2: for him. You know, that's a lot to process in

1157
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 2: a very short period of time. And uh so, yeah,

1158
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 2: and I think sometimes we under we underestimate that. I

1159
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 2: think for for probably anyone who's on the stage in

1160
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 2: the in the way they are ideally it hopefully they're

1161
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 2: all human beings, maybe all of them are.

1162
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 1: But well I always say this, you know, I take

1163
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 1: I take my pulse right because you know there's always

1164
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 1: this thing you're biased and all this stuff. Well we're

1165
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 1: all biased. We're all born, as I always like say,

1166
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:37,120
Speaker 1: we're born with original bias. You know, it's like where

1167
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:39,439
Speaker 1: you grew up, who you're born to, YadA YadA, YadA,

1168
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: Like what what era you're born into? Right, like, you know,

1169
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: so all of it is inherent bias. The question is

1170
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: are you fair? Right, That's what I've aways said when

1171
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: it comes to that, are you fair? Or for a politician,

1172
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: are you honest? You know? You know? And and go

1173
01:03:54,880 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 1: from there, So how much which do you feel like

1174
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 1: your advice was taken by the Biden Harris team at

1175
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 1: any given time? Did you feel as if you had

1176
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: a seat at the table or you were just one

1177
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 1: of many voices?

1178
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 2: I felt probably two things. I think I felt one

1179
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 2: that there was genuine interest in curiosity and in the

1180
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 2: advice to the point of the way the engagement was

1181
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 2: happening and the conversations I was part of. But at

1182
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 2: the same time, I think I was probably one of many,

1183
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 2: and that may just be my impression of just from

1184
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 2: the organization right, which look like I think it's I

1185
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 2: say this because I think it was probably a tough

1186
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 2: dynamic for any candidate to be in a situation where

1187
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 2: you have a team in an infrastructure that was not

1188
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 2: your own, and everyone's trying to is operating under one

1189
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 2: assumption and now it's a different one and you're trying

1190
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,440
Speaker 2: to figure out how to work with one another. But

1191
01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 2: it also did seem like there were a lot of

1192
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 2: kind of in the messaging kitchen, so to speak. And

1193
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 2: I also found there was a lot of reliance or

1194
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 2: focus on the tactics first. And I and I'm you know,

1195
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 2: I come from a belief in a philosophy like you

1196
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:15,439
Speaker 2: kind of need to know what you're saying first, and

1197
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 2: you need to know what you're trying to do before

1198
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 2: you really get hung up on the tactics. But that

1199
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 2: seemed to be kind of from an from an operational perspective,

1200
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 2: where the time was spent, you know, like, what are

1201
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 2: we talking about when we do this interview?

1202
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 1: So well, this goes back to I think who is

1203
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris? And I think that you know what comes

1204
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 1: through in all your memos? You've shared them all with me,

1205
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: or at least I don't know if you shared them

1206
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 1: all you've shared I think I did, Yeah, what what comes?

1207
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 1: It's what's not what's what's missing that is glaring to me?

1208
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: Which is I still ridding all your memos? I felt

1209
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: like you were you were viewing this through the prism

1210
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 1: of the voters that are available to you, and how

1211
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 1: do you talk to the voters that are available to you?

1212
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: Which is what a good strategy should be doing. But

1213
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 1: the core problem with Kamala Harris, and this goes back

1214
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 1: to her presidential campaign in twenty nineteen, right, I call

1215
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 1: it twenty nineteen case. She kind of got out right

1216
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: at the end of that calendar year, right before the

1217
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: turn really before Iowa, who is she? Right? You know,

1218
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 1: she was at times trying to be a progressive. Then

1219
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: she's like, well, I'm not going to be that progressive.

1220
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:28,439
Speaker 1: I'm going to be a little bit over here, right,

1221
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 1: and she's you know, I've had this thesis on her

1222
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: that she was talked into running for president, that this

1223
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: was not I'm somebody who believes that if you haven't

1224
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: thought about running for president since you know, you know,

1225
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: since you basically became an adult, Right, if you weren't

1226
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 1: thinking about it in high school, you probably don't have

1227
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 1: what it takes to get all the way there. You

1228
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: almost have to be obsessive about it. Right, Bill Clinton

1229
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: at Boys State, Right, that dude was campaigning for president,

1230
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 1: you know in high school. You know, I think Rudy

1231
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: Giuliani is a guy that you feel like was always

1232
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: on the move. Right. It strikes me Chris Christy was

1233
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 1: always had a goal, was goal oriented, Right, You just

1234
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: sort of know, you know, she she sort of she's

1235
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: this she felt like consultants. It's always felt like to

1236
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 1: me when you look she got tucked into something. I

1237
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: look at her and I said, the first office she

1238
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: ever ran for was DA And I'm guessing this is

1239
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 1: because that's what she wanted to do. And I think

1240
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 1: the law and I think the you know, sort of

1241
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 1: being on the prosecution side as a way to try

1242
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: to sort of create more fairness than the justice system.

1243
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 1: I genuinely believe that that was sort of where and

1244
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 1: so I've always thought that her her My guess is,

1245
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: if I if I got to know twenty five year

1246
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 1: old Kamala Harris, her goal was to be a Supreme

1247
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: Court justice or Attorney general the United States, and somehow

1248
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 1: somebody whispered in her ear, you know, you could be president,

1249
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: you could be the first woman president. And you don't

1250
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: unhear those things, right, when enough people tell tell you,

1251
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 1: suddenly you're like, yeah, why not, Hey, maybe I can

1252
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 1: be president? Right like you have this And I've watched

1253
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 1: people grab that bug because somebody planted the seat in

1254
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: their head and suddenly they think why not versus was

1255
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 1: it really a core goal? Because if it wasn't a

1256
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 1: core goal, then you're going to continue to have these

1257
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:22,639
Speaker 1: identity issues. And I feel like she had ideological identity

1258
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 1: issues in the first campaign and in this one. Yeah yeah,

1259
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 1: which might be explain why she never did the Rogan interview, right,

1260
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: which might explain why she didn't do some of these things.

1261
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 1: But that's my take. What did you see?

1262
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, I definitely I think you're right. I

1263
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 2: agree with you in the sense that I don't know

1264
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 2: that she knew who she is. I don't know that

1265
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 2: she felt and that she felt comfortable and confident in

1266
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:51,640
Speaker 2: doing the things that you need to do when you're

1267
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 2: running for office, right, because there is an inherent vulnerability

1268
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 2: and running for office and exposing yourself to people and

1269
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:01,720
Speaker 2: revealing who you are and trying to get them to

1270
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 2: trust you and and and kind of bring them into

1271
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 2: the fold. And I think I get why that can

1272
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 2: be totally uncomfortable, which that's the case. It's probably the

1273
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,600
Speaker 2: wrong business to be in, but uh, you know, so

1274
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 2: my sense, but my sense is that's that that is

1275
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 2: much harder when you don't know innately what it is

1276
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 2: you believe, right because at some point, like the talking

1277
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 2: point ends, and then you're struggling. Right, So, if you're

1278
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,599
Speaker 2: not in a completely controlled environment, or you know, you

1279
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 2: don't know where the question is going to go, or

1280
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 2: it's two dynamic, if you don't feel comfortable one saying

1281
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 2: I don't know, or you know, maybe actually being reflective

1282
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 2: or kind of pushing back when someone disagrees with you

1283
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 2: and being a little bit uncomfortable, you know that, I

1284
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 2: think it just makes it tough to engage and that's

1285
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:45,599
Speaker 2: what struck me, like, you know, when they were looking

1286
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 2: for kind of my thoughts on Rogan, and I think

1287
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 2: I write this, I write it in the memo in

1288
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 2: the sense if it wasn't saying you should do this,

1289
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 2: but it really was like, if you're going to do it,

1290
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 2: you really need to do it this way, and if

1291
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 2: you can't do it this way, like you shouldn't bother

1292
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,720
Speaker 2: doing it at all, because it's not enough to just

1293
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 2: check the box. And I felt sometimes that was the thinking, right,

1294
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 2: we just checked the box that we did this thing,

1295
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:07,799
Speaker 2: like we checked the box that we did the Fox interview,

1296
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 2: and it's like that's not enough. Right When you go

1297
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 2: in there, you have to understand that how are you

1298
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:15,200
Speaker 2: communicating to that audience and what is this showing and

1299
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 2: how are you rebuilding yourself in a way that they're

1300
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:18,679
Speaker 2: gonna be that they're going to trust you a little

1301
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 2: bit or get a little more comfortable with you. So

1302
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:24,599
Speaker 2: I felt like sometimes we were just checking the box

1303
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 2: on something to do it without really exploring, Okay, well,

1304
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 2: what is it that I'm going to say and how

1305
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:32,680
Speaker 2: am I going to engage in this when I do do.

1306
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 1: Let me highlight one of my favorite parts of one

1307
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 1: memo because this really chapped me the whole time, and

1308
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 1: it bothered me during Biden's campaign in twenty And this

1309
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: one right, which is the following, instead of Republicans for Harris,

1310
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: how do we make it Harris for publicans? This general

1311
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 1: framework is applicable to independence and moderate undecided's as well

1312
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 1: as because it creates a structure that either makes it

1313
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 1: possible to vote for her or comfortable enough not to

1314
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 1: turn out to vote for Trump. I just thought that

1315
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,639
Speaker 1: that framing, and this is just one piece of one

1316
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 1: memo you wrote. I just thought that framing. I never

1317
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: felt Joe Biden knew how to camp. Basically, you know,

1318
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:26,480
Speaker 1: how do I make the case to the Bush Republicans

1319
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 1: that I care about various shues, not just that, hey,

1320
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 1: we are in agreement that Trump's unconstitutional. Trump's not a constitutionalist,

1321
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 1: which is and this is a threat to the republic.

1322
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 1: But that was all they had. That was almost like

1323
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,479
Speaker 1: Biden and frankly by the end, Harris, it was all

1324
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 1: they had in common, yeah, right, rather than saying, well,

1325
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 1: what are some issues that actually they care about besides

1326
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 1: Trump's inability to follow the Constitution? And how was this

1327
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 1: memo received.

1328
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 2: You know, I feel initially, well, I mean there was

1329
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 2: a conversation in a call that I was a part

1330
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:08,600
Speaker 2: of where we kind of walked through it, or I

1331
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 2: walked through it in part because I think the way

1332
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 2: they they were framing it, they were even framing me

1333
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 2: coming in as a Republican and this kind of idea

1334
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:20,480
Speaker 2: that only a Republican can speak to a Republican. And

1335
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 2: you know, that whole effort which was trying to recruit

1336
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 2: sort of frankly most people who were former Republicans at

1337
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 2: that point or Republicans of a different era, you know,

1338
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 2: as sort of spokespeople. And I was really adamant like

1339
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 2: that that was not effective. And you know, some of

1340
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 2: these folks who I love them all, like, you know,

1341
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:39,479
Speaker 2: God bless Usama Ari, but like no one knows who

1342
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 2: she is anymore, and it's really not relevant and in

1343
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:46,640
Speaker 2: some in some cases it's actually counterintuitive and it's not

1344
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 2: helpful because the way they're carrying that message actually doesn't

1345
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:53,639
Speaker 2: connect with the with the individual. And and so there

1346
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:55,720
Speaker 2: seemed to be sort of we would initially kind of

1347
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:57,479
Speaker 2: get to like, yes, that makes sense because I was

1348
01:12:57,720 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 2: asked the question, remember on one call someone asked me, like,

1349
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 2: Marie up, like, so can we can we ask you like,

1350
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,040
Speaker 2: like how effective is Liz Cheney? Like is she as

1351
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 2: effective as like we think she is?

1352
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, No, that's amazing that disconnect.

1353
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:14,680
Speaker 1: So they really thought, Look, I mean, I you know,

1354
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:17,400
Speaker 1: I've known Liz Cheney a long time. I'm you know,

1355
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 1: I've always sort of admired her steel spine, right, even

1356
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 1: when when when she's been disagreeable to certain to certain ideas.

1357
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:30,879
Speaker 1: But it was pretty clear. I mean, it's it's frankly,

1358
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,479
Speaker 1: the only person less effective at wooing a Republican might

1359
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 1: have been Mitch McConnell.

1360
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, right, you know, yeah, And I think, but

1361
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:41,560
Speaker 3: I think that kind of goes I guess to the

1362
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:43,920
Speaker 3: point I was trying to make that at the end

1363
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 3: of the day, it's the job of a.

1364
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 2: Candidate to earn the vote, and I there was I think,

1365
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:52,799
Speaker 2: from a tactical perspective, an over alliance or a belief

1366
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 2: that if you're using surrogates or others to speak for you,

1367
01:13:55,479 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 2: somehow that was more effective. And so I would in

1368
01:13:57,760 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 2: a lot of ways was just like, I think that

1369
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 2: the message from the top down is what you need

1370
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:03,679
Speaker 2: to fix it. How you're using your candidate.

1371
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 1: You know what bothered me. It's like, look, I wish

1372
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:09,639
Speaker 1: they would have thought like a parliamentary system, which is, look,

1373
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: the Democrats don't have a majority in this country, okay,

1374
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:16,719
Speaker 1: but the Democrats plus the constitutionalists in the middle, among

1375
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 1: independence I don't even know if I want to call

1376
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 1: them the middle, but among independents and sort of the

1377
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 1: constitutional Republicans, right, there was a common cause there. So

1378
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 1: it's a coalition. In parliamentary systems, you give the coalition something.

1379
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: You know, you're like, hey, you know what, I know

1380
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,720
Speaker 1: my base believes in this, but you know, like I

1381
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,800
Speaker 1: wanted to see her say I'm going to make Liz

1382
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 1: Cheney DHS secretary. Yeah, man, you're sending a message. I

1383
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 1: want a conservative Republican who sort of believes in you know,

1384
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 1: border security, who understands what it is, you know, the

1385
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:58,679
Speaker 1: meaning of it. Also from an agricultural state, who understands

1386
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:01,960
Speaker 1: the need for migrants. Right. The point is like, and

1387
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 1: neither neither Biden or Harris could bring themselves to do

1388
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:07,800
Speaker 1: that right at the end of the day, And this,

1389
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:11,559
Speaker 1: to me is the Democratic Party's problem. They're afraid that

1390
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:19,480
Speaker 1: you gave multiple times. The advice you were giving is, hey,

1391
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 1: go after the left on something whatever. Maybe it's on

1392
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:25,680
Speaker 1: law and order in the cities, maybe it is at

1393
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 1: the border. We didn't get it right, you know, throw

1394
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 1: a bone there. And the fact that they could never

1395
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:37,800
Speaker 1: get there. And I don't know if this is group

1396
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 1: think around you know, I certainly it took. I think

1397
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: it took a change in chief of staff for Biden

1398
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:48,400
Speaker 1: to finally focus on the border. That's just my observation.

1399
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 1: But it's stunning to me how often you were making

1400
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 1: that case and they could never get there. There isn't

1401
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 1: you know. What made Trump appealing to some in the

1402
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 1: middle was his ability to go after sacred cows on

1403
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 1: the right. You know, even if they were sacred casu,

1404
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 1: You're like, why are you doing that? One didn't matter.

1405
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 1: It sent the message and I'm not going to be conventional, right.

1406
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 1: It never send the message that she was going to

1407
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 1: be anything other than a conventional liberal democratic.

1408
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:19,760
Speaker 2: President, right right, right? No, I think that's right. And

1409
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,679
Speaker 2: so it was. There'd be times where she was saying

1410
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 2: or they were the camping are trying to tell you

1411
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 2: she was going to be different, but in no way

1412
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:28,040
Speaker 2: were they showing the right and I think.

1413
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 1: Right there was no example, right, there.

1414
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 2: Was nothing people could kind of hang their hat on.

1415
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 2: They're like okay, and I think you know the other thing.

1416
01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 2: And I felt this probably more on a personal level,

1417
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 2: but you know, I was very much like, look, you

1418
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,800
Speaker 2: guys are very much like country over Party, but you're

1419
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 2: also very much like country over Party just for one party,

1420
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,559
Speaker 2: so kind of like it has to be both, and

1421
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,960
Speaker 2: you know, I just you know, there there was just

1422
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:57,360
Speaker 2: there's the fact that there was also a group of

1423
01:16:57,439 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 2: voters who were open, right, who just need to get

1424
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 2: comfortable and off with her, that were like there for

1425
01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 2: the taking that like couldn't couldn't land the plane on.

1426
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,760
Speaker 2: I think, you know, it's frustrating, and it sort of

1427
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:10,760
Speaker 2: says it all because on what you have a guy

1428
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:14,400
Speaker 2: that like most people disliked immensely, you know, didn't want

1429
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 2: to vote for, but then looked at the options and like, well,

1430
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 2: I guess I'll either stay home or I'll still vote

1431
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,280
Speaker 2: for this guy. And so you have to at least

1432
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:23,840
Speaker 2: then at least coming on or that be a little

1433
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 2: bit reflective about what that says about your party.

1434
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 1: Well, and that look, they I think Ultimately, if you're

1435
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 1: still looking for one moment that symbolizes why she lost,

1436
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 1: it's the moment on the view when she says you

1437
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:38,920
Speaker 1: should think of one thing, right, like forget anything else.

1438
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:42,760
Speaker 1: Right that Ultimately, that was the moment, right, That was

1439
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 1: that crystallizes. You know, nobody watches the view, so I'm

1440
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 1: not going to sit here and say that. But it

1441
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:51,720
Speaker 1: was the perception, It was the clip. It it reinforced

1442
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: a stereotype many had, right it Also, you know, and look,

1443
01:17:57,920 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, I I sort of come at this.

1444
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,439
Speaker 1: I don't know if a sitting vice president under any

1445
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 1: circumstance could win an election if the president that they

1446
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 1: serve under has an approval rating under fifty. Right, you know,

1447
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: we have we only have three or four examples, and

1448
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, and they all sort of the winner the

1449
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,839
Speaker 1: one that won. HW Bush had a president with approval

1450
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: rating over sixty. Right, Bill Clinton had character challenges that

1451
01:18:27,160 --> 01:18:30,960
Speaker 1: was holding Gore back. LBJ had Vietnam problems that was

1452
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:35,240
Speaker 1: holding Humphrey back. And you know, this really, to me,

1453
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:39,600
Speaker 1: she really is Humphrey sixty eight. It's the same in

1454
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 1: that she just could never get out from under the

1455
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:46,200
Speaker 1: unpopularity of the Biden administration, Humphrey could never get out.

1456
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 1: He late came out against the war, said it was

1457
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:53,040
Speaker 1: a mistake. Right, he did throw Johnson very late under

1458
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:54,560
Speaker 1: the bus. And guess what, he only lost by a

1459
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:57,880
Speaker 1: percentage point, right, Like the popular vote was super super close,

1460
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,799
Speaker 1: So there was something, there was something there that voters

1461
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,599
Speaker 1: wanted to come on tell us, yeah, you know, I'm

1462
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:07,280
Speaker 1: waiting for it, waiting for it, and she never did.

1463
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:10,519
Speaker 1: And you know, you just wonder was that worth a point?

1464
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:11,639
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1465
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:13,920
Speaker 1: You know, it's we're not looking for ten points swing here.

1466
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 1: You look at for a one point No.

1467
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:17,280
Speaker 2: I mean, particularly when you look at I mean you know,

1468
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 2: when you I know, when you kind of like take

1469
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:21,559
Speaker 2: a step back, it looks like, okay when you look

1470
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:23,680
Speaker 2: at it, when you look at the map, it looks overwhelming.

1471
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 2: But then you look at some of those close margins

1472
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:28,920
Speaker 2: you know, in the battle grounds, and you're right, it's

1473
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about a point and a half

1474
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:34,760
Speaker 2: maybe two points, and so you know, it wasn't impossible.

1475
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:37,519
Speaker 2: I do think look, I do think you know you're

1476
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:39,320
Speaker 2: right in the sense that and I feel this that

1477
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:42,160
Speaker 2: I think it was it was an impossible scenario for

1478
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,640
Speaker 2: her to be put in what's a chow? But I

1479
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 2: think that's why I think it's it also speaks to

1480
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:52,679
Speaker 2: how the Biden campaign was operating even before she got there,

1481
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 2: and and frankly, you know the positioning like of that campaign,

1482
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 2: and as you were saying, like even his campaign was

1483
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:01,840
Speaker 2: really making this all about, you know, referendum on the

1484
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 2: future of democracy. And look, at the end of the day,

1485
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 2: like I wanted to just way too esoteric of a

1486
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:09,599
Speaker 2: concept for an actual person to drop their head around

1487
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 2: and think that that's the state and what the stakes

1488
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:16,599
Speaker 2: are on the ballot. But you know, it again means

1489
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 2: that you really kind of and ultimately sort of cap

1490
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 2: out right all the people who are going to vote

1491
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 2: for you based on that concept you already have at

1492
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:25,759
Speaker 2: some point, so you at some point have to pivot

1493
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:27,600
Speaker 2: and start figuring out how you earn the votes of

1494
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 2: the people who that's not going to sway.

1495
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:33,639
Speaker 1: You write this on October fourth memo, you say it's

1496
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:36,280
Speaker 1: thirty days to go, and you you make this point

1497
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:38,400
Speaker 1: about the never Trump Republicans. Hey, you don't need a

1498
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 1: campaign with them anymore. You almost don't need them. They

1499
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 1: are already there. They're not and in some ways you

1500
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 1: write this in October fourth and yet what was the

1501
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 1: closing argument? Right? Right? It might as well have been

1502
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 1: written by George Conway and build Crystal at the bulwark, right,

1503
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 1: and God bless them. I mean, I'm you know, but

1504
01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:58,840
Speaker 1: that they they were already on board. You didn't need

1505
01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:01,360
Speaker 1: a message to get them on board. You needed a

1506
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 1: message to get people who were like, hey, you guys

1507
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 1: sucked at this, what are you going to do? Differently,

1508
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 1: Biden was terrible at this? What are you going to do?

1509
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:13,679
Speaker 2: Definitely right? And I think, well, I mean to that point,

1510
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:15,920
Speaker 2: I mean the closing argument and like the speech on

1511
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 2: the mall right, you know you're picking a location and

1512
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,400
Speaker 2: invokes something very specific. Again, is that how you want

1513
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:23,080
Speaker 2: to end your campaign?

1514
01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm curious were you involved in that decision making process.

1515
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 1: Did you say, hey, not my favorite idea, because I

1516
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:33,679
Speaker 1: mean it the minute she did it, it was like, really,

1517
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:36,640
Speaker 1: what are you doing here? And then, of course I

1518
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:38,519
Speaker 1: think something stepped on at that day if I remember

1519
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:39,240
Speaker 1: at least that's right.

1520
01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:41,200
Speaker 2: I can't remember what it was, but it either, but.

1521
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 1: It was something something you know, this is the problem

1522
01:21:45,439 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 1: with our attention economy, right, Like you can make up

1523
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:50,040
Speaker 1: you try to plan a big event, you've got to

1524
01:21:50,080 --> 01:21:52,720
Speaker 1: be prepared for it to just you know, get undone

1525
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:53,759
Speaker 1: by by something.

1526
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:56,320
Speaker 2: Well. But that's also why I mean getting to the

1527
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:58,920
Speaker 2: message in a second. From a tactical perspective, you know,

1528
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:01,960
Speaker 2: doing your closing argument speech like a week out before

1529
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:05,040
Speaker 2: the election is like not the world we live in anymore, right,

1530
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:07,320
Speaker 2: Like this isn't like nineteen eighty eight. You know your

1531
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:10,280
Speaker 2: closing argument frankly needs to be you know, you need

1532
01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:12,439
Speaker 2: to be whatever the version of the closing argument is

1533
01:22:12,479 --> 01:22:14,320
Speaker 2: that you're landing a plan on day in and day out.

1534
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:15,880
Speaker 2: You need to at least be starting like thirty days

1535
01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:16,680
Speaker 2: out right, people a.

1536
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:20,960
Speaker 1: Way like by the way, I mean, because it's funny

1537
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 1: you just said that about closing argument messages that you

1538
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 1: don't do him this late. So my son turned eighteen

1539
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:31,400
Speaker 1: this year, but he was really following the presidential for

1540
01:22:31,439 --> 01:22:34,800
Speaker 1: the first time, and so he'd sit there and he'd

1541
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:36,400
Speaker 1: be like, and we watch a lot of sports, and

1542
01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:40,000
Speaker 1: of course in a campaign now the only advertisements are

1543
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:43,800
Speaker 1: beer and spear, gambling and sports and politics right in

1544
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 1: a campaign here, because it's the only place you can

1545
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 1: advertise it and feel like you can get a cross

1546
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 1: section audience, right. So he'd sit there and he said, man,

1547
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 1: these ads suck. I guess, and he's not wrong, and

1548
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 1: I understand what he meant. He goes, there's no creativity

1549
01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:59,720
Speaker 1: to him, They're all kind of formulaic. So I went

1550
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 1: on the Living Room Candidate, which is this fabulous historic

1551
01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:06,880
Speaker 1: website of presidential campaign ads by cycle, and it starts

1552
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: with nineteen fifty two, and you can I'm telling you

1553
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:11,839
Speaker 1: it's a rabbit hole. If you're kind of a historic

1554
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 1: political junkie. Once you go down that rabbit hole, you'll

1555
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:16,720
Speaker 1: be there for an hour and go Jesus crime, And

1556
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:20,160
Speaker 1: what am I doing? Well? I got lost. I started

1557
01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:23,160
Speaker 1: to show and basically it was nineteen eighty eight was

1558
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:26,200
Speaker 1: the we went from having creative ads before nineteen eighty

1559
01:23:26,240 --> 01:23:29,479
Speaker 1: eight like jingles and people would write their own songs. Literally.

1560
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:31,320
Speaker 1: My son's like, well, how come they don't do that anymore?

1561
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:34,679
Speaker 1: Kennedy Kennedy, Kennedy Kennedy, or try to make you laugh

1562
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:37,080
Speaker 1: at all this stuff? And I said, yeah, I said,

1563
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:39,280
Speaker 1: because they have too much data now and they just

1564
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 1: are trying to talk to specific groups. And you really

1565
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 1: see the transition in eighty eight but it's funny you

1566
01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:49,400
Speaker 1: say this, I recommend everybody. So Michael Dutakis buys a

1567
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:53,679
Speaker 1: five minute national TV spot the Sunday before the election,

1568
01:23:54,880 --> 01:24:00,000
Speaker 1: and it's supposed to be a closing message and instead

1569
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:04,840
Speaker 1: it's an airing of crievances and it's just him going,

1570
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:06,960
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you didn't get to know who I was.

1571
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that the way that this process works. And

1572
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:14,080
Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, like, no wonder he lost? What?

1573
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 1: No wonder? Bush got four hundred electoral votes. Like if

1574
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:19,120
Speaker 1: you were on the fence and you watch that, you're like, well,

1575
01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 1: this is just a cranky, cranky technocrat from Boston. What

1576
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:26,200
Speaker 1: it was literally like the Red Sox fans complaining about

1577
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:29,280
Speaker 1: the umpires, right, And this was his five minute closing argument.

1578
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 1: And I wanted to I remember saying, well, you should

1579
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:36,120
Speaker 1: show this to every single political communications class. I'll tell

1580
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:38,600
Speaker 1: you what you don't do. That's a closing message. So

1581
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 1: I recommend after this go look at it. You gotta

1582
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 1: go watch it. It's his five minute closing spot. It's

1583
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 1: on the living room candidate, and you're just like, I

1584
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 1: can't believe anybody allowed. My guess is everybody had given

1585
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:53,519
Speaker 1: up on the campaign say what you want, governor, go.

1586
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:55,200
Speaker 2: Ahead, right, it's right, it's right.

1587
01:24:55,280 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 1: The speech you to what now she never did that

1588
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 1: type of closing message, but she didn't it. It didn't

1589
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:06,360
Speaker 1: get it didn't meet the voters where they were right.

1590
01:25:06,400 --> 01:25:09,679
Speaker 1: And that's ultimately the problem, right, You've got to meet voters.

1591
01:25:09,479 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 2: Where they are no totally right, and and there's ways

1592
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 2: to do that with and maybe the message putting the

1593
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 2: message aside. There's a way to do ways too that

1594
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 2: are more effective. And I think if you're going to

1595
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:23,120
Speaker 2: do sort of a big moment in this day and age,

1596
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:24,800
Speaker 2: you need to know how you're kind of landing the

1597
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:27,439
Speaker 2: plane on the takeaway message up front, you know. And

1598
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:29,560
Speaker 2: I think that was a little bit of the conversation

1599
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 2: I had in terms of what I was asked for

1600
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:36,880
Speaker 2: feedback after it was already a mo'regone conclusion. But again,

1601
01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:39,360
Speaker 2: like you have to treat this like the main the

1602
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:41,600
Speaker 2: main takeaway that you want everyone to pay attention to,

1603
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:43,800
Speaker 2: needed to happen right off the right, off the top,

1604
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 2: and you know, we there was also back and forth

1605
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:48,640
Speaker 2: and I can't remember actually where the final speech you know,

1606
01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 2: ended ended up on this, but you know, sort of

1607
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:53,160
Speaker 2: if you're going to be there and you have the

1608
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 2: optics being what they are, and the press is sort

1609
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:57,759
Speaker 2: of alluding to January sixth, like there's really no reason

1610
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:00,000
Speaker 2: to mention it in your speech, and in some respects,

1611
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 2: you know, one of things I said was you might

1612
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:05,479
Speaker 2: be better off not mentioning Trump at all, and and

1613
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:07,559
Speaker 2: I but I think this is like a larger problem

1614
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:09,400
Speaker 2: for the Democratic Party and frankly, I think it's also

1615
01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:11,759
Speaker 2: going to be a problem for the Republican Party post Trump.

1616
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:15,479
Speaker 2: Is that like Trump's made everybody lazy, right, So it's like.

1617
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:18,320
Speaker 1: That's so thank you for saying it that way. I

1618
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:21,160
Speaker 1: feel like the one I've always said, you know, the

1619
01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 1: Trump era is easy as a political analyst, because it

1620
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:28,479
Speaker 1: is we really have gotten dumb, right, and dumb and

1621
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 1: lazy with our messaging, dumb and lazy with how we

1622
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:34,640
Speaker 1: appeal the voters. Dumb and lazy. And part of that,

1623
01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 1: I don't know how much of that is social media

1624
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:39,439
Speaker 1: algorithms rewarding dumb and lazy too, Like I think that

1625
01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:42,080
Speaker 1: feeds into it, right, because that, yeah, that's that that

1626
01:26:42,160 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 1: helps sort of drive mass content movement and stuff. But god, what,

1627
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 1: what thank you for it's refreshing to hear that. It

1628
01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:50,000
Speaker 1: is so true.

1629
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:53,720
Speaker 2: It's just I mean, look, yeah, I mean I look

1630
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:56,840
Speaker 2: and like Republicans. I mean, look, Republicans just follow whatever

1631
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 2: Trump says, right, So it'll be interesting when he's not there,

1632
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 2: follow you know, how to like whatever the next class

1633
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:06,559
Speaker 2: of Republican candidates are. How do they figure out who

1634
01:27:06,640 --> 01:27:09,160
Speaker 2: they are? Right? And you know, how do they speak

1635
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:11,720
Speaker 2: that language? And I and I think for Democrats, right,

1636
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:14,559
Speaker 2: it's just been this fallback. You know that Trump's so terrible,

1637
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:17,360
Speaker 2: and you know, and that's the case for Democrats, and

1638
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:19,679
Speaker 2: it's certainly for Republicans. You never have to figure out

1639
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:22,400
Speaker 2: like what you're for, and you know, I do think

1640
01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:25,760
Speaker 2: that's the harder thing, but it ultimately is the thing

1641
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 2: that brings people with you and wins you votes.

1642
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:31,840
Speaker 1: And well, we haven't had a president who won by

1643
01:27:32,240 --> 01:27:34,160
Speaker 1: as much by what they were for than what they

1644
01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:38,040
Speaker 1: weren't since Obama OA. Right, he in some ways was successful.

1645
01:27:38,240 --> 01:27:41,280
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to be able to and you know, which,

1646
01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 1: by the way, is the reason why he's the only

1647
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:45,680
Speaker 1: candidate to win by more than five points this century. Right,

1648
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:48,880
Speaker 1: everything else has been a vote against election. Well, I

1649
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:50,760
Speaker 1: don't know if I trust that person, So I'm going

1650
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:51,720
Speaker 1: to go with this person.

1651
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:55,439
Speaker 2: Right, Right, people are picking the lesser of two evils, right,

1652
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:58,280
Speaker 2: I mean, And I think last the last cycle was

1653
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:00,519
Speaker 2: really instructed to that. I mean, one, you know, you

1654
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:03,280
Speaker 2: have people who don't identify the same way as they

1655
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:07,880
Speaker 2: did with traditional party structures. You had the majority of

1656
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:10,080
Speaker 2: people actually not like and this was bind was still

1657
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:13,920
Speaker 2: in the race, like either Canada, and so there is

1658
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:17,880
Speaker 2: an opportunity there, Like it does exist, it's just you know,

1659
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:20,760
Speaker 2: taking the time and figure out how to get to it.

1660
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 2: And the truth is getting to it may not mean

1661
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,080
Speaker 2: success overnight. I think that is what you know, like

1662
01:28:26,160 --> 01:28:28,240
Speaker 2: we all struggle with right that you don't you know

1663
01:28:28,360 --> 01:28:31,160
Speaker 2: you're not winning, you know you're you're not because everything

1664
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:35,120
Speaker 2: is about you know, winning an election, the majority, you know,

1665
01:28:35,439 --> 01:28:37,200
Speaker 2: having the majority, even though I feel like we live

1666
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:39,200
Speaker 2: in a day and age where once a party has

1667
01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 2: the majority, they have no idea what to do with

1668
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:42,920
Speaker 2: the majority. So it's like what are we amassing this

1669
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:47,479
Speaker 2: power for from a policy perspective? But but I but like,

1670
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:49,760
Speaker 2: I do think there is an opportunity there, and I

1671
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:53,640
Speaker 2: do think whichever party figures it out will be successful

1672
01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:55,400
Speaker 2: kind of coming off of the Trump years.

1673
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:59,000
Speaker 1: Do you think there's any room? I vacillate on this,

1674
01:28:59,320 --> 01:29:01,240
Speaker 1: Like there's a part of me that says, boy, both

1675
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:05,479
Speaker 1: parties are kind of weak, which is why Sanders and

1676
01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:09,599
Speaker 1: Trump so easily became leaders inside the party, right, they

1677
01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:11,519
Speaker 1: just sort of they're kind of I've always sad they

1678
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:14,360
Speaker 1: were kind of dead carcasses. There was a dead elephant

1679
01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 1: and a dead donkey, and they can get reanimated at

1680
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:20,200
Speaker 1: any given time. You think there's room for a third party,

1681
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,200
Speaker 1: an independent or is it more of the there's room

1682
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:27,920
Speaker 1: temporarily for a sober candidate until the till the two

1683
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:30,080
Speaker 1: parties figured out like a la Perot.

1684
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:32,479
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think if there is room, it

1685
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:35,880
Speaker 2: has to it has to be not an individual, but

1686
01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 2: there has to be an idea or an issue that's

1687
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:40,960
Speaker 2: like driving it. And I mean kind of historically when

1688
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 2: you look at it, that's when a third party or

1689
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 2: a party kind of evolution has really had the most success.

1690
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:48,920
Speaker 2: And it takes time. I think, you know, when we

1691
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 2: kind of look at what was trying to happen with

1692
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:53,920
Speaker 2: no labels last time, you know, that's like that's an

1693
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:57,799
Speaker 2: that's an organization based on tactics, right, it's not based

1694
01:29:57,800 --> 01:30:01,479
Speaker 2: on like a philosophy or ideolog This.

1695
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:03,720
Speaker 1: Is what the Forward Party. I've been I've spent a

1696
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:05,920
Speaker 1: lot of time with the organizers there, and they're they're

1697
01:30:05,960 --> 01:30:08,800
Speaker 1: wrestling with this when you know, because they have like

1698
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 1: some of their supporters or supporters for tactical reasons, and

1699
01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:15,759
Speaker 1: some of their supporters are supporters looking for a true

1700
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:20,280
Speaker 1: independent vision that that's that's unique from the two parties. Yeah,

1701
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:22,959
Speaker 1: and and yet if they come up with a platform,

1702
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:26,640
Speaker 1: it could scare people. You know, the potential collection of

1703
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:29,240
Speaker 1: non rs and d's is a fascinating group of people.

1704
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:32,000
Speaker 1: The problem is, other than not being a member of

1705
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:34,880
Speaker 1: the two major parties, they don't have a lot in common.

1706
01:30:35,479 --> 01:30:39,360
Speaker 2: Right, right, which is one? Which is which is right?

1707
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:41,640
Speaker 2: How do you figure out which is? Maybe? Then, like

1708
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 2: whoever builds it, I don't need need to maybe not

1709
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:49,000
Speaker 2: be from a traditional party apparatus. I think, Look, I

1710
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:51,320
Speaker 2: think it's interesting. I do think it has to be

1711
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:54,240
Speaker 2: based in something that people can get behind, like from

1712
01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:57,559
Speaker 2: a Bill White philosophy of governance, something that you're like, okay,

1713
01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:00,360
Speaker 2: I believe in this, and maybe the truth, which I

1714
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 2: think a lot of times it has been one issue

1715
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:04,080
Speaker 2: because that usually it is one issue that can get

1716
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 2: people from divergent ideological spectrums to come together. But I

1717
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:11,559
Speaker 2: do think in the Trump era and so me, I

1718
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 2: think it was tough. Like when you look at the

1719
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:16,719
Speaker 2: last cycle, putting aside the no roles, I think organizational issue.

1720
01:31:17,080 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 2: I think I felt because we kind of looked at

1721
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:21,200
Speaker 2: this when Christy got out. We kind of did it

1722
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:23,800
Speaker 2: as a like, let's do it as like an academic experiment,

1723
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:26,280
Speaker 2: like let's look at the numbers break down, you know

1724
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:27,519
Speaker 2: what we're seeing, and you could.

1725
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:30,680
Speaker 1: No and I had heard Christy certainly yeah into the

1726
01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 1: phone when the no labels people called and say, okay,

1727
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:36,000
Speaker 1: tell me what you got, but could never be convinced

1728
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:36,799
Speaker 1: that it was viable.

1729
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 2: Right, So we kind of went through it, and you

1730
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:40,840
Speaker 2: could see in the States that there is a pool

1731
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:43,640
Speaker 2: of gettable voters, like that was feasible. But then you

1732
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:45,840
Speaker 2: had the issue of money right at that point in

1733
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:49,200
Speaker 2: time baland access, which you know, frankly was a hue

1734
01:31:49,200 --> 01:31:51,640
Speaker 2: of the list problem, right, And then we kind of

1735
01:31:51,640 --> 01:31:54,640
Speaker 2: had this other which is more abstract. It is just

1736
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:57,960
Speaker 2: even though the world we live in is very fractured

1737
01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:01,360
Speaker 2: from a media perspective, there is still and maybe you

1738
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 2: disagree with this, there's still sort of the the establishment

1739
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:08,040
Speaker 2: media sort of setting the tone of like the horse

1740
01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:10,559
Speaker 2: race and sort of who's up who's down in a race, right,

1741
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:13,800
Speaker 2: And we kind of felt like it would be very

1742
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 2: difficult unless you had maybe some former Republicans who were waity,

1743
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:20,680
Speaker 2: like Romney or someone else like that, who like came

1744
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 2: out and supported you at the same time. And even

1745
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:25,720
Speaker 2: then we felt would be very difficult to get out

1746
01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:28,080
Speaker 2: of the gate and not have everyone immediately viewing you

1747
01:32:28,120 --> 01:32:31,400
Speaker 2: as being a spoiler or taking votes away from Trump,

1748
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:35,760
Speaker 2: because so much of the dialogue at that point was around, oh,

1749
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:38,280
Speaker 2: we can't have like Trump be president, right, And you

1750
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:39,800
Speaker 2: know we even kind of said, you know, could you

1751
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:41,960
Speaker 2: even do this to have a conversation that kind of

1752
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:44,680
Speaker 2: forces the parties? Is I'm a believer in that? Like

1753
01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:46,680
Speaker 2: that's you know, part of the reason why. Frankly, like

1754
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:48,559
Speaker 2: when Christie ran, it was interesting, it was like we

1755
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:52,519
Speaker 2: need someone with this voice in the race, and you know,

1756
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:56,000
Speaker 2: we just views it, particularly this last that last cycle.

1757
01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:58,639
Speaker 2: You know, it just felt you couldn't get over that

1758
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:00,400
Speaker 2: that it would immediately have ap pointing our and then

1759
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:02,479
Speaker 2: it becomes self fulfilling, and then the race and the

1760
01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:06,519
Speaker 2: substance it self is uncovered. I just would be hard

1761
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:09,559
Speaker 2: to get out from behind that, which doesn't mean you

1762
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:12,000
Speaker 2: couldn't potentially do it at a later date or maybe

1763
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:16,679
Speaker 2: it's post Trump with more time, but it's certainly difficult.

1764
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:18,640
Speaker 2: Like I think, it's really difficult.

1765
01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 1: You know, I think, and I don't know how much

1766
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:31,600
Speaker 1: of this is just the political dork in me or

1767
01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:34,000
Speaker 1: the anthropologist I always say. At this point, I feel

1768
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:36,679
Speaker 1: like I'm a political anthropologist more than anything else, trying

1769
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:39,599
Speaker 1: to figure out how these various tribes, how do they

1770
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:45,559
Speaker 1: interact with the actual civilization of people. Right. But you know, one,

1771
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:48,759
Speaker 1: you know, I had a fever dream about Bill mcgraven

1772
01:33:49,040 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 1: as sort of the perfect anecdote for the time we're

1773
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:56,639
Speaker 1: living in, which is you get a military leader who says, no, look,

1774
01:33:56,680 --> 01:33:58,800
Speaker 1: I don't have it. I you know, I don't. I

1775
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:00,800
Speaker 1: haven't gone deep on many of these issues. I'm not

1776
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:02,880
Speaker 1: going to tell you that I have a specific answer

1777
01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:06,960
Speaker 1: about the border other than it's ridiculous how this works.

1778
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:09,200
Speaker 1: Our asylum system is broken. And here's what I am

1779
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:11,040
Speaker 1: going to promise you is I'm going to bring together

1780
01:34:11,080 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 1: this group and this group, and we're going to put

1781
01:34:12,479 --> 01:34:14,360
Speaker 1: together a plan in ninety days because one thing I'm

1782
01:34:14,400 --> 01:34:17,479
Speaker 1: good at the military is conceiving of a plan and

1783
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:19,720
Speaker 1: executing it. And we're going to be sort of a

1784
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:23,280
Speaker 1: solutions based and hey, we're going to try to update

1785
01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:25,559
Speaker 1: the constitution for the democracy that we have in twenty

1786
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 1: first century America maybe all of that. I think we're

1787
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 1: not there yet, right. I think that there's not enough pea,

1788
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:34,439
Speaker 1: there's not a big enough constituency to say, you know what,

1789
01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: the system is broken, right, You can't the two parties

1790
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:41,040
Speaker 1: are only going to exploit a broken system for power,

1791
01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:43,160
Speaker 1: which is what I feel like we're in right now,

1792
01:34:43,200 --> 01:34:46,000
Speaker 1: which is whenever either one them gets power. So let's

1793
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:48,280
Speaker 1: change the Senate rules to do this, or let's change

1794
01:34:48,280 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 1: the Senate rules to just get our way, rather than saying, hey,

1795
01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:54,200
Speaker 1: are we building a worse judiciary by doing it this way?

1796
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:57,720
Speaker 1: Are we building a worse Congress by by doing it

1797
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:02,680
Speaker 1: this way? And I think, unfortunately there isn't enough and

1798
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:05,040
Speaker 1: this gets it. Charlie Cook and I had two old

1799
01:35:05,040 --> 01:35:08,000
Speaker 1: guys yellow the Cloud type of conversation last week, which

1800
01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:12,679
Speaker 1: was you know, because it was this whole like, people

1801
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:16,200
Speaker 1: don't understand why the Constitution has the compromise in it

1802
01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:18,479
Speaker 1: that it has, and that if it's one thing to

1803
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:20,760
Speaker 1: know that there are three branches of government, nine people

1804
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:23,160
Speaker 1: in supreme No, no, no, that's not when we say we've

1805
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 1: got a civics problem. It's sort of understanding, Well, why

1806
01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:27,519
Speaker 1: did we end up with it this way? Well, because

1807
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:30,080
Speaker 1: they actually couldn't come to this agreement, so they created

1808
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:33,679
Speaker 1: a system to force compromise. And if more people understood

1809
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:37,080
Speaker 1: the system at its best is about compromise, not one

1810
01:35:37,120 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 1: side wins and the other side loses, yep, Right, then

1811
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:43,040
Speaker 1: then you know which is really the twentieth century mindset? Right.

1812
01:35:43,160 --> 01:35:44,880
Speaker 1: I've always said that the end of the Cold War,

1813
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:49,479
Speaker 1: you know, got rid of our sober our sober brain,

1814
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:53,760
Speaker 1: part of our brain because you know, both parties kept

1815
01:35:53,760 --> 01:35:56,320
Speaker 1: their fringes at bay during the Cold War, because we

1816
01:35:56,400 --> 01:36:00,720
Speaker 1: had a North Star. Hey, yeah, we're promoting democracy. You know,

1817
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 1: we're all in the same team when we go overseas. Right,

1818
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:06,439
Speaker 1: this whole idea that you know, you don't criticize, you know,

1819
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:09,880
Speaker 1: outside the water's edge is really a Cold War phenomenon, right,

1820
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:12,599
Speaker 1: It was only that is not how we behaved pre

1821
01:36:12,720 --> 01:36:15,519
Speaker 1: World War Two, and it's not how we behave today.

1822
01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:20,640
Speaker 1: And I've always now lamented it turns out you and

1823
01:36:20,680 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 1: I grew up with a political system that actually might

1824
01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:29,160
Speaker 1: have been an outlier, right, and even a media ecosystem

1825
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:32,599
Speaker 1: that was an outlier. Right. The most partisan media outside

1826
01:36:32,640 --> 01:36:35,240
Speaker 1: of this era is actually the Arab pre World War Two,

1827
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:38,320
Speaker 1: right between the so during the nineteenth century and the

1828
01:36:38,320 --> 01:36:42,479
Speaker 1: early twentieth century. So we I think, and so I

1829
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:45,800
Speaker 1: don't think we're there just yet, but we're close, you know,

1830
01:36:46,040 --> 01:36:49,519
Speaker 1: we certainly are close that I think i'd want to

1831
01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 1: be if I were a candidate running for office in

1832
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:55,000
Speaker 1: either twenty six or twenty eight. The number one thing

1833
01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:58,439
Speaker 1: I'd want people to think of me as as a reformer, right,

1834
01:36:58,600 --> 01:37:01,759
Speaker 1: whatever that means. Right, I'm going to from this reform, reform, reform,

1835
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a I'm a reformer. I'm not I'm

1836
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:06,679
Speaker 1: not happy with how this works. I'm gonna I'm gonna

1837
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:11,800
Speaker 1: fix it. I'm a reformer. And and look, Trump comes

1838
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:14,840
Speaker 1: across as a guy who wants to change things right, yes,

1839
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:17,280
Speaker 1: radically so and all this stuff and this gets at

1840
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:19,920
Speaker 1: the core Kamala Harris never said she wanted to change

1841
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:23,200
Speaker 1: a thing, right, and I think that was the you know,

1842
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:26,840
Speaker 1: that's the core missing piece. I think that the Democrats.

1843
01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. And also thinking like almost

1844
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:34,600
Speaker 2: people wanted to go back to the way it was

1845
01:37:34,680 --> 01:37:37,040
Speaker 2: before Trump, and you're actually like, no, people don't want

1846
01:37:37,080 --> 01:37:38,920
Speaker 2: it to go back to that. There's a reason they

1847
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:41,120
Speaker 2: voted for Trump. And there's a reason.

1848
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:43,800
Speaker 1: They voted for Obama. Like I go back the original sin.

1849
01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:47,120
Speaker 1: I sit here and say the original sin was Obama

1850
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:50,559
Speaker 1: endorsing Hillary. It's no, no, this is now knock on her.

1851
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:53,960
Speaker 1: It was just that she was representative of the era

1852
01:37:54,040 --> 01:37:55,880
Speaker 1: that they were saying, no more of the Bushes than

1853
01:37:55,880 --> 01:38:00,000
Speaker 1: the Clintons, right, So instead it became no more Bush

1854
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:03,040
Speaker 1: Clinton's and you know, and it took Donald Trump to

1855
01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:06,400
Speaker 1: get rid of the Bushes and the Clintons, when actually

1856
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:09,880
Speaker 1: Barack Obama was elected to do that and he chose

1857
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 1: not to.

1858
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting. It's like every the establishments get like

1859
01:38:15,120 --> 01:38:19,000
Speaker 2: very comfortable and like praid right, And I mean, I

1860
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:20,840
Speaker 2: you know, I look at this on the Republican side,

1861
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:23,439
Speaker 2: you know, when you kind of take a look back

1862
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:25,160
Speaker 2: and sort of you know, because I think you know,

1863
01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:27,479
Speaker 2: particularly after sixteen whenever I was sort of like, how

1864
01:38:27,479 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 2: did we get here? How did Trump actually become the nominee?

1865
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:32,320
Speaker 2: And I was like, this is actually not that surprising,

1866
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:34,519
Speaker 2: and I would use this so all this story of

1867
01:38:34,880 --> 01:38:37,640
Speaker 2: I think it was like twenty eleven, Christy had appointed

1868
01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:40,519
Speaker 2: a judge who was Muslim, and it had been someone

1869
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:42,559
Speaker 2: who he had worked with when he was a US attorney.

1870
01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:45,000
Speaker 2: I think was helpful in terms of facilitating relationships kind

1871
01:38:45,000 --> 01:38:49,200
Speaker 2: of pertnine eleven with the Muslim community intelligent perspective, intelligence perpective,

1872
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:52,080
Speaker 2: and otherwise, and we were getting a lot of crap

1873
01:38:52,120 --> 01:38:54,599
Speaker 2: from the from the right on it, you know, practice

1874
01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:56,639
Speaker 2: sharia a lot, et cetera. Okay, and it's like twenty

1875
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:59,759
Speaker 2: eleven and I remember, you know, at a press conference

1876
01:38:59,800 --> 01:39:02,120
Speaker 2: when of the Jersey Press Corps asks in this question

1877
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:04,280
Speaker 2: like you're getting a lot of you know, you're getting

1878
01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 2: attacked on the right about this, and he, you know,

1879
01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:10,080
Speaker 2: he stopped and he was like, this is crazy. And

1880
01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:13,880
Speaker 2: then he kind of went through individuals credentials and like

1881
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:16,560
Speaker 2: very matter of factly, and you know, we kind of

1882
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:18,200
Speaker 2: looked at that moment or in New Jersey it was

1883
01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:21,240
Speaker 2: very you know, dynamic and the way he answered it,

1884
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 2: so of course we like you know, cut In pushed

1885
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:27,200
Speaker 2: it round. Yeah, And you know it's interesting because you know,

1886
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:30,639
Speaker 2: like really kind of all the sort of typical outlets

1887
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:32,240
Speaker 2: that you would think kind of like a slightly left

1888
01:39:32,240 --> 01:39:36,679
Speaker 2: of center like applauded what he said, right Joe's and

1889
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:39,040
Speaker 2: you didn't say anything sort of what you would what

1890
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:42,519
Speaker 2: you would call the establishment the intellectual part of the right.

1891
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 2: And I'm kind of talking about the National Reviews, et cetera,

1892
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:45,479
Speaker 2: et cetera.

1893
01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:47,559
Speaker 1: And ed Board.

1894
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, like there was no sort of coming out in

1895
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:52,840
Speaker 2: sort of like essentially saying that they agreed and we

1896
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:55,200
Speaker 2: can't have this kind of rhetoric in our party, right.

1897
01:39:55,280 --> 01:39:58,040
Speaker 2: And I had a conversation with an editor of a

1898
01:39:58,439 --> 01:40:01,320
Speaker 2: you know again you would you wouldn't think of this

1899
01:40:01,439 --> 01:40:04,600
Speaker 2: as like you as like maga media in today, but

1900
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:08,439
Speaker 2: like again, establishment conservative media. You know, we were talking

1901
01:40:08,479 --> 01:40:11,000
Speaker 2: about how, you know, there'd been a lot of this

1902
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:13,760
Speaker 2: on the site. You know, we've been through this, how

1903
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:16,720
Speaker 2: it's not accurate that he's practicing sharialis a judge. And

1904
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:18,960
Speaker 2: editor was kind of like, look, I don't condone, I

1905
01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:21,600
Speaker 2: don't condone it, but like I can't control you know

1906
01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:24,519
Speaker 2: what's on the site, and you're like, well, okay, so

1907
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:26,720
Speaker 2: so much for being an editor in chief here. But

1908
01:40:26,760 --> 01:40:29,040
Speaker 2: then you know, you fast you fast forward, and you

1909
01:40:29,160 --> 01:40:32,320
Speaker 2: have a Republican nominee who's you know, banning, who's as

1910
01:40:32,360 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 2: part of his platform saying we're banning Muslims were coming

1911
01:40:34,439 --> 01:40:37,080
Speaker 2: into the country, and we're all suddenly shocked by it, right,

1912
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:40,439
Speaker 2: And you know, it's it's sort of that slow creep

1913
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:44,080
Speaker 2: of you know, the establishment, and this is whateverently comes

1914
01:40:44,080 --> 01:40:46,559
Speaker 2: of the intellectual establishment, the folks who've been in office,

1915
01:40:46,640 --> 01:40:49,720
Speaker 2: the donor class, right, you know, nobody wanted to touch

1916
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:51,920
Speaker 2: it for fear of losing a race or being primary.

1917
01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:54,320
Speaker 2: And so when you don't say anything, right and you

1918
01:40:54,400 --> 01:40:56,720
Speaker 2: kind of let it fester, like this is what you

1919
01:40:56,840 --> 01:40:59,559
Speaker 2: get and you can't. And I always found it to

1920
01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:02,840
Speaker 2: just be this is ingenuous, isn't my word, But I

1921
01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 2: just found that then entire group people who they were

1922
01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:07,679
Speaker 2: so shocked and upset with Trump and had no ability

1923
01:41:07,720 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 2: to kind of look inward and be like, how is

1924
01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:11,640
Speaker 2: I part of how we got here? Right to be

1925
01:41:11,760 --> 01:41:13,679
Speaker 2: part of I think part of the reason why people

1926
01:41:13,720 --> 01:41:16,320
Speaker 2: actually were kind of like, we're done with the establishment

1927
01:41:16,560 --> 01:41:18,240
Speaker 2: of this story because you guys are kind of full

1928
01:41:18,280 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 2: of it. So I don't disagree.

1929
01:41:22,760 --> 01:41:24,840
Speaker 1: I know, I promised an hour, but there's like two

1930
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:27,000
Speaker 1: other topics I'd like to get with you. Can you

1931
01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:29,080
Speaker 1: have a few more minutes? Are you okay with that?

1932
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:29,639
Speaker 2: Okay?

1933
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:33,519
Speaker 1: So topic one is sort of where it's interesting we

1934
01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:38,320
Speaker 1: both avoided this. Where which Republicans have been comfortable breaking

1935
01:41:38,320 --> 01:41:42,320
Speaker 1: with Trump? And there's only two that I find that

1936
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:46,519
Speaker 1: I think could be interesting presidential candidates because they both

1937
01:41:47,240 --> 01:41:49,439
Speaker 1: it does seem as if they knew who they are

1938
01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:52,280
Speaker 1: regardless of Trump, and it's Rand Paul and Josh Holly.

1939
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:55,040
Speaker 1: Those are the two that stand out to me right now.

1940
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 1: Right Paul is decided to double down on being sort

1941
01:41:58,120 --> 01:42:01,760
Speaker 1: of the small government guy, believing that there's still room

1942
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:04,160
Speaker 1: for that. I think that at his core, right, and

1943
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:07,919
Speaker 1: he's uncomfortable with some of the tactics of law enforcement,

1944
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:10,280
Speaker 1: and he always right, that's part of his libertarian wiring

1945
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:12,720
Speaker 1: a little bit. And then you've got a Holly, who

1946
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 1: I think understands that Trump face better than Trump does. Right.

1947
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:17,960
Speaker 1: You know, he's the guy realizing, hey, don't you know

1948
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:21,519
Speaker 1: who our voters are? Like you know he actually in Missouri?

1949
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:24,920
Speaker 1: Is is who there? You know Missouri? You know if

1950
01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:28,800
Speaker 1: if you know, if your message on the right works

1951
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:31,479
Speaker 1: in Missouri is going to work everywhere type of right

1952
01:42:31,520 --> 01:42:33,960
Speaker 1: now on the right. So those two stand out to me.

1953
01:42:34,439 --> 01:42:36,280
Speaker 1: Who stands out to you that you think might be

1954
01:42:36,320 --> 01:42:40,320
Speaker 1: able to to Because in order to succeed, you've got

1955
01:42:40,360 --> 01:42:42,479
Speaker 1: to be You're not going to be able to be

1956
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:45,200
Speaker 1: fully anti Trump, right, You've got to be Trump adjacent

1957
01:42:45,320 --> 01:42:50,280
Speaker 1: but different maybe well at least on the right, at

1958
01:42:50,360 --> 01:42:52,280
Speaker 1: least for the Republican nomination in twenty.

1959
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:55,240
Speaker 3: Eight I think, well, I think you need to be

1960
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:58,000
Speaker 3: able to speak to speak.

1961
01:42:57,720 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 2: To what works about Trump. I think, like, I think

1962
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:05,400
Speaker 2: you can't be like a never Trump or anti Trump,

1963
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:07,680
Speaker 2: like you know, throwing him aside. Right, you have to

1964
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:11,280
Speaker 2: kind of acknowledge, you know, the things that clearly have resonated.

1965
01:43:11,320 --> 01:43:15,639
Speaker 2: And I think, but I'm always hesitant to then say

1966
01:43:15,640 --> 01:43:18,559
Speaker 2: it has to be like Trump adjacent because I am

1967
01:43:18,600 --> 01:43:21,880
Speaker 2: curious about I think that kind of boxes you in right,

1968
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:24,599
Speaker 2: Like is the Republican who's successful that able to tap

1969
01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:28,000
Speaker 2: into the same sentiment that's made Trump successful but makes

1970
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:32,120
Speaker 2: it but makes it very uniquely their own because can

1971
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:34,479
Speaker 2: truly emulate him, right, and that you know, if you

1972
01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:36,800
Speaker 2: try to emulate him, you're actually not going to be

1973
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:38,200
Speaker 2: as successful at it. No.

1974
01:43:38,320 --> 01:43:40,479
Speaker 1: I think we've all learned that over time. And anybody

1975
01:43:40,560 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 1: that tries to be a you know, a copy a

1976
01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:47,080
Speaker 1: miniature of a successful you know, it never works, right.

1977
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:50,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just never works. Yeah. But if you're asking

1978
01:43:50,920 --> 01:43:54,720
Speaker 2: for the names, I feel like I don't have any.

1979
01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:57,439
Speaker 2: I mean your actually yours are actually pretty good, you know,

1980
01:43:57,479 --> 01:43:59,760
Speaker 2: if I like thinking about it, like I can see

1981
01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:01,240
Speaker 2: there on the rand, I have to get Josh a

1982
01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:04,800
Speaker 2: little more thought. But I think I've struggled with that,

1983
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:06,920
Speaker 2: and I've kind of been hopeful that there's somebody out

1984
01:44:06,960 --> 01:44:08,360
Speaker 2: there that we don't know about yet.

1985
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:11,960
Speaker 1: You know, when I don't I don't buy into camp right.

1986
01:44:12,000 --> 01:44:13,479
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's got the personality of the

1987
01:44:13,520 --> 01:44:16,880
Speaker 1: charisma I say this with you know, that's not everybody does.

1988
01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 1: But you know, I think he's ideologically in the correct spot.

1989
01:44:19,920 --> 01:44:22,519
Speaker 1: But do you have it right? We all know that's

1990
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:26,880
Speaker 1: that uh, you know, elusive thing, right, and I DeSantis

1991
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:29,439
Speaker 1: has that problem, right, you know, and that there's just

1992
01:44:29,439 --> 01:44:32,519
Speaker 1: a personality law there that that more than more than

1993
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:38,400
Speaker 1: anything and and so so it is hard to see

1994
01:44:38,439 --> 01:44:41,080
Speaker 1: who you know, and and then the other candidates, right

1995
01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:43,920
Speaker 1: vance is just going to be you know, whatever's you know,

1996
01:44:44,080 --> 01:44:47,000
Speaker 1: sort of true like any sitting vice president. You can't

1997
01:44:47,000 --> 01:44:49,799
Speaker 1: get out from under your president, right you either run,

1998
01:44:49,960 --> 01:44:52,880
Speaker 1: you either you either embrace it or you don't, right

1999
01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:57,280
Speaker 1: and and you can be Mike Pence and finished near

2000
01:44:57,280 --> 01:44:59,680
Speaker 1: to the bottom, or you can you can embrace you know.

2001
01:44:59,720 --> 01:45:01,800
Speaker 1: And then there's guys like Greg Abbott you know, who

2002
01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:03,840
Speaker 1: I think also will try to just run as a

2003
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,479
Speaker 1: mini me versus you know. So you're right, I don't

2004
01:45:07,520 --> 01:45:10,639
Speaker 1: see you know, I don't see any the only two

2005
01:45:10,720 --> 01:45:13,120
Speaker 1: that seemed to be trying. That's why they're there. And

2006
01:45:13,160 --> 01:45:15,920
Speaker 1: I guess Glenn Younkin is, Hey, I'm the I'm the

2007
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:17,640
Speaker 1: guy that kind of looks like the Bush era but

2008
01:45:17,680 --> 01:45:20,080
Speaker 1: doesn't hate Trump right right like, and I just don't

2009
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:26,360
Speaker 1: know that feels yeah.

2010
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like a bygone arrow, which I think,

2011
01:45:27,080 --> 01:45:30,240
Speaker 2: you know, you know, there's like so many candidates where

2012
01:45:30,280 --> 01:45:32,400
Speaker 2: I think, like the donor class, like a certain clas

2013
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:34,679
Speaker 2: would always be like this is the next big candidate

2014
01:45:34,800 --> 01:45:38,000
Speaker 2: and ineffably no. So I feel like he kind of

2015
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:38,960
Speaker 2: falls into that camp.

2016
01:45:40,160 --> 01:45:43,479
Speaker 1: Anybody on the Democratic side of you think might be

2017
01:45:43,560 --> 01:45:47,479
Speaker 1: able to successfully as I'm going to quote your memo again,

2018
01:45:49,280 --> 01:45:53,000
Speaker 1: do something you know that are you know, candidate X,

2019
01:45:53,240 --> 01:45:56,000
Speaker 1: what candidate X will do for Republicans who don't like

2020
01:45:56,040 --> 01:45:59,639
Speaker 1: Trump versus just being you know, a candidate for people

2021
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:01,880
Speaker 1: for the ever Trumper's Yeah, I.

2022
01:46:01,800 --> 01:46:05,000
Speaker 2: Feel like I'm watching folks. I mean, I'm definitely interested.

2023
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:08,800
Speaker 2: I'm intrigued by the new mayor of San Francisco's making.

2024
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:09,960
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting.

2025
01:46:11,080 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 1: Daniel Lewie, Right, he's the heir, heir of the we've

2026
01:46:14,439 --> 01:46:16,480
Speaker 1: got like, is he is he Levi Strauss?

2027
01:46:18,680 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't want to say to finish hundred percent.

2028
01:46:21,120 --> 01:46:23,160
Speaker 1: Sure either, Yeah I should know that too, so anyway,

2029
01:46:23,160 --> 01:46:26,000
Speaker 1: go ahead. But yes, he is a different type of

2030
01:46:26,160 --> 01:46:30,040
Speaker 1: Democratic mayor, you know, sort of you know, uh, law

2031
01:46:30,080 --> 01:46:33,120
Speaker 1: and order sort of Bill Clinton type might be the

2032
01:46:33,160 --> 01:46:34,599
Speaker 1: best way to describe. Yeah.

2033
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:36,880
Speaker 2: Well, and then and you know what, and I'm probably

2034
01:46:36,920 --> 01:46:39,080
Speaker 2: am biased towards you know, if you're a mayor or

2035
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:42,320
Speaker 2: governor and you kind of have that executive leadership, right,

2036
01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:45,840
Speaker 2: so you kind of like, how does that actually you know,

2037
01:46:45,880 --> 01:46:48,040
Speaker 2: you have something tangible you have to figure out, right,

2038
01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:52,360
Speaker 2: So I think that's interesting to look at, you know,

2039
01:46:52,400 --> 01:46:57,120
Speaker 2: I think like you know, I mean, I can see

2040
01:46:57,120 --> 01:46:59,320
Speaker 2: like the charisma, the appeal of like of a wes Moore,

2041
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:02,720
Speaker 2: you know, she is also interesting. You know, I think

2042
01:47:02,760 --> 01:47:04,760
Speaker 2: it'll be interesting. I'm more curious to see how they

2043
01:47:04,840 --> 01:47:07,559
Speaker 2: kind of play out over the next year or so.

2044
01:47:08,520 --> 01:47:10,040
Speaker 2: I feel like I don't I feel like I feel

2045
01:47:10,040 --> 01:47:12,120
Speaker 2: like I have this like it's sort of on the edges. Oh,

2046
01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:17,360
Speaker 2: you could be interesting, but it's like too soon to tell.

2047
01:47:17,560 --> 01:47:20,599
Speaker 1: I just double checked he is LEVI stress. He is inherited,

2048
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 1: Lily Stress. Right, that's intriguing. And then of course I

2049
01:47:24,800 --> 01:47:27,680
Speaker 1: got a close with New York City mayor and you

2050
01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:31,120
Speaker 1: know him. Well, it's interesting. I was seeing a pretty

2051
01:47:31,120 --> 01:47:36,280
Speaker 1: good analysis about how it it. Here's what is fascinating

2052
01:47:36,280 --> 01:47:39,800
Speaker 1: to me because you lived the twenty sixteen campaign and

2053
01:47:40,360 --> 01:47:44,479
Speaker 1: on the Republican side, and I'm watching the sort of

2054
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:48,200
Speaker 1: the Manhattan elite. They're like, it reminds me of the

2055
01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:51,960
Speaker 1: Republican elite of twenty sixteen, the Stop Trump movement and

2056
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:55,920
Speaker 1: the stop Mom Dannie movement. Hey, maybe if everybody agrees right,

2057
01:47:56,000 --> 01:47:58,439
Speaker 1: Cruise and Rubio one has to drop out or cruise

2058
01:47:58,479 --> 01:48:01,880
Speaker 1: and Kasik one has ap out and nobody will drop out, right,

2059
01:48:02,200 --> 01:48:06,040
Speaker 1: you know, And and we're and and you see the polling, right, Hey,

2060
01:48:06,040 --> 01:48:10,040
Speaker 1: do you want Trump or or somebody that isn't Trump? Well,

2061
01:48:10,040 --> 01:48:13,080
Speaker 1: we want somebody that isn't Trump. Look like that really

2062
01:48:13,120 --> 01:48:16,120
Speaker 1: pulls well because there's no person that connected to it,

2063
01:48:16,160 --> 01:48:19,000
Speaker 1: just like Mom Donnie. You know, you see this polling

2064
01:48:19,120 --> 01:48:22,680
Speaker 1: well and anti Mom Donnie candidate could get fifty five

2065
01:48:22,720 --> 01:48:24,960
Speaker 1: percent of the vote. Great, who is it?

2066
01:48:25,120 --> 01:48:25,559
Speaker 2: Right? You know?

2067
01:48:25,640 --> 01:48:29,120
Speaker 1: Who is right? And and this feels like a field

2068
01:48:29,120 --> 01:48:32,439
Speaker 1: of extraordinarily flawed candidate's like it, you know, to me,

2069
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:34,559
Speaker 1: the only one that I would put by that I

2070
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:36,360
Speaker 1: would rally around as the guy we know the least

2071
01:48:36,360 --> 01:48:40,040
Speaker 1: about Waldon, you know, like give me the none, right,

2072
01:48:40,200 --> 01:48:43,120
Speaker 1: rather than Cuomo and all the baggage he comes with

2073
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:47,040
Speaker 1: Adams and his and the Guardian angel, right, and the

2074
01:48:47,080 --> 01:48:51,000
Speaker 1: Guardian angel guy who had noticed finally took the door off, right, Yeah,

2075
01:48:51,040 --> 01:48:55,160
Speaker 1: God bless him. But you know they they it is.

2076
01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:58,920
Speaker 1: And yet there still seems to be this well, Mama,

2077
01:48:59,200 --> 01:49:01,360
Speaker 1: we can stop momie, We could stop Mom Donnie. And

2078
01:49:01,360 --> 01:49:05,720
Speaker 1: it's like you could, but not with not, not with.

2079
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:07,880
Speaker 2: This crowd right now with the candy up. No, it's

2080
01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:09,960
Speaker 2: funny you say that, because I've actually felt it's very

2081
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:13,840
Speaker 2: similar and to sixteen or just in general sort of

2082
01:49:13,840 --> 01:49:16,800
Speaker 2: what happens when you know a donor class or like

2083
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:18,640
Speaker 2: a certain you know, I be in your New York.

2084
01:49:18,640 --> 01:49:20,960
Speaker 2: I I don't know if they necessarily have a political affiliation,

2085
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:24,120
Speaker 2: but they're just like wealthy, right, some he decides right,

2086
01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:27,120
Speaker 2: something's not moving in the direction right if they wanted

2087
01:49:27,120 --> 01:49:29,400
Speaker 2: it to, and so there becomes like a panic because

2088
01:49:29,400 --> 01:49:33,040
Speaker 2: I remember saying the folks here early on, when everyone

2089
01:49:33,120 --> 01:49:35,400
Speaker 2: was like, it's a foregone conclusion. It's cuomo. You know,

2090
01:49:35,439 --> 01:49:39,080
Speaker 2: everyone's I never understood that money. I literally said, I've

2091
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:41,479
Speaker 2: seen I've seen this movie before, and I go, Actually,

2092
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:45,639
Speaker 2: every time there's a group of like wellsy donors who

2093
01:49:45,640 --> 01:49:47,880
Speaker 2: get involved and like panic, donate a lot of money

2094
01:49:47,880 --> 01:49:50,160
Speaker 2: and get behind a candidate usually ends up being wrong

2095
01:49:50,560 --> 01:49:53,920
Speaker 2: because like furthest from the pulse of the electorate, and

2096
01:49:54,920 --> 01:49:57,120
Speaker 2: you know, I think that's what and look like part

2097
01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:00,679
Speaker 2: of what I think happened here I feel is not surprising.

2098
01:50:00,720 --> 01:50:03,559
Speaker 2: I mean, you're putting money behind you know, Como, who

2099
01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:06,200
Speaker 2: was a flawed candidate right was not likable, so it

2100
01:50:06,280 --> 01:50:09,880
Speaker 2: was trying to force something that you know, was was

2101
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:12,760
Speaker 2: at odds. And I think it really speaks volumes to

2102
01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:16,439
Speaker 2: just the Democratic Party here and the fact that there's

2103
01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:18,960
Speaker 2: no bench right. It sort of shocks me that here

2104
01:50:18,960 --> 01:50:22,840
Speaker 2: in New York like there was not anyone else like

2105
01:50:22,920 --> 01:50:23,800
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party.

2106
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:25,960
Speaker 1: I don't get it either. I mean, you know, this

2107
01:50:26,040 --> 01:50:30,600
Speaker 1: is where I really hold Jeffries and Schumer more accountable

2108
01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:33,960
Speaker 1: than others do, because this is your backyard. You're the

2109
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:36,559
Speaker 1: two leaders. You're you're Look, there's nobody else in charge

2110
01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:39,000
Speaker 1: of the party right now, whether you like it or not, right,

2111
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:42,160
Speaker 1: and if you can't, your job is to do what's

2112
01:50:42,160 --> 01:50:44,680
Speaker 1: in the best inches of the party, and having a

2113
01:50:44,760 --> 01:50:46,920
Speaker 1: socialist become the mayor of New York City is probably

2114
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 1: not going to improve the branding of the Democratic Party.

2115
01:50:49,600 --> 01:50:52,800
Speaker 1: That said, there are things to learn from Mom Donnie, Like,

2116
01:50:53,160 --> 01:50:55,639
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny what works when you talk about

2117
01:50:55,680 --> 01:50:58,840
Speaker 1: the when you talk about problems people have versus your

2118
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:02,559
Speaker 1: your own personal agenda. What Mom Donnie's talking about, to

2119
01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:06,120
Speaker 1: his credit, is the issues that voters care about. Hey,

2120
01:51:06,280 --> 01:51:09,160
Speaker 1: everything costs too much here, what can we do about it? Now?

2121
01:51:09,200 --> 01:51:13,840
Speaker 1: His solutions I think are solutions that have been tried

2122
01:51:13,880 --> 01:51:17,760
Speaker 1: and just don't work. But you know, I I uh

2123
01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:24,000
Speaker 1: so that you know, but when somebody's running a better campaign,

2124
01:51:24,040 --> 01:51:26,879
Speaker 1: the answer isn't just throw money at a bad candidate.

2125
01:51:29,280 --> 01:51:31,680
Speaker 2: No, and and and also you know, I don't know

2126
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:34,360
Speaker 2: if this is just because the super PACs have actually

2127
01:51:34,439 --> 01:51:37,479
Speaker 2: like made obviously made things worse where there's a belief

2128
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:39,439
Speaker 2: if I just throw this money in a super pack

2129
01:51:39,439 --> 01:51:42,320
Speaker 2: and they you know, bombard voters with tactics like that

2130
01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:44,160
Speaker 2: somehow is going to make up for not having a

2131
01:51:44,160 --> 01:51:46,400
Speaker 2: good message or a good candidate, And like it doesn't.

2132
01:51:46,439 --> 01:51:48,080
Speaker 2: So I don't care how much money is in here,

2133
01:51:48,200 --> 01:51:49,679
Speaker 2: Like how many robo calls you do?

2134
01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:52,760
Speaker 1: Does anybody remember the Michael Bloomberg third term, because you know,

2135
01:51:52,960 --> 01:51:56,240
Speaker 1: people seem to forget, Yes he won, Remember how narrow

2136
01:51:56,360 --> 01:52:00,479
Speaker 1: his victory was? Yeah, and the candidate ran like nothing right,

2137
01:52:00,520 --> 01:52:01,160
Speaker 1: Remember it.

2138
01:52:01,120 --> 01:52:03,200
Speaker 2: Was like and you're like had a crazy breakdown of

2139
01:52:03,280 --> 01:52:05,040
Speaker 2: like the cost per voter at the time.

2140
01:52:06,479 --> 01:52:08,960
Speaker 1: And yes, yes he won, but it was you know,

2141
01:52:09,479 --> 01:52:14,280
Speaker 1: you're like money unless you're gonna literally overwhelming money, which

2142
01:52:14,320 --> 01:52:17,680
Speaker 1: is ultimately what he had. But he didn't have the

2143
01:52:17,760 --> 01:52:22,200
Speaker 1: right message. He just did overwhelm tactically, but these days

2144
01:52:22,200 --> 01:52:23,679
Speaker 1: it's hard to overwhelm tactically.

2145
01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And look on Donnie, he

2146
01:52:27,439 --> 01:52:30,320
Speaker 2: ran a good campaign. And you're probably sometimes like this

2147
01:52:30,400 --> 01:52:32,320
Speaker 2: is really what it comes down to, you like who

2148
01:52:32,360 --> 01:52:34,599
Speaker 2: has the better message and who runs the better campaign,

2149
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:36,719
Speaker 2: And it's like that's kind of what it's all about.

2150
01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:39,600
Speaker 2: So you know what you expect Cuomo to do?

2151
01:52:40,520 --> 01:52:41,280
Speaker 1: Is he going to drop?

2152
01:52:41,760 --> 01:52:44,000
Speaker 2: I don't think so. No, He's going.

2153
01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:46,720
Speaker 1: To see this through, right, because he does pull the best. Right.

2154
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:48,960
Speaker 1: I don't think any of them can win one on

2155
01:52:48,960 --> 01:52:51,559
Speaker 1: one with Donnie, right, I just think that. And if

2156
01:52:51,600 --> 01:52:55,200
Speaker 1: Trump endorses Cuomo, I assume I don't see how that

2157
01:52:55,240 --> 01:52:55,840
Speaker 1: helps Cuomo.

2158
01:52:56,560 --> 01:52:56,880
Speaker 2: I don't know.

2159
01:52:57,040 --> 01:52:59,720
Speaker 1: I just I don't see how that works as a

2160
01:52:59,800 --> 01:53:06,160
Speaker 1: net benefit. And so it is it feels like a

2161
01:53:06,240 --> 01:53:10,439
Speaker 1: trap to unite around Cuomo. He's the best possible version,

2162
01:53:10,479 --> 01:53:15,160
Speaker 1: and yet you know he loses, probably loses to Yeah.

2163
01:53:15,240 --> 01:53:18,639
Speaker 2: Well, I mean in some respects it's similar bit different,

2164
01:53:18,680 --> 01:53:20,479
Speaker 2: but it's like, you know, it's the message of well,

2165
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:23,519
Speaker 2: at least I'm not the other guy, right, And you know,

2166
01:53:23,680 --> 01:53:25,919
Speaker 2: I think as we've come to find.

2167
01:53:25,720 --> 01:53:29,559
Speaker 1: Out that he's unless the other guy is literally Roy Moore, okay,

2168
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:33,280
Speaker 1: who was a child predator, or David Duke, who was

2169
01:53:33,280 --> 01:53:35,519
Speaker 1: a white super like. I think about the times that

2170
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:39,240
Speaker 1: this has worked, Okay, it worked specific it is like

2171
01:53:39,720 --> 01:53:43,360
Speaker 1: and unless it is so egregious, Like you know, Edward

2172
01:53:43,479 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 1: Edwards was a crook, but it was like vote for

2173
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:48,240
Speaker 1: the crook. It's important, right because the great bumper sticker,

2174
01:53:48,560 --> 01:53:50,719
Speaker 1: you know, by the way, Edwin Edwards was a likable

2175
01:53:50,720 --> 01:53:53,879
Speaker 1: guy too, right, like that actually actually had positive charisma,

2176
01:53:54,120 --> 01:53:58,240
Speaker 1: which I think mattered too. But and Doug Jones was

2177
01:53:58,280 --> 01:54:02,160
Speaker 1: a good candidate, right he did. Like so, but ultimately

2178
01:54:03,120 --> 01:54:06,320
Speaker 1: this only works when it's that flawed. Other than that,

2179
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:07,559
Speaker 1: it usually doesn't.

2180
01:54:07,920 --> 01:54:10,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well I think that's totally right. So I

2181
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:13,720
Speaker 2: do think I do feel like we know what the

2182
01:54:13,760 --> 01:54:16,040
Speaker 2: outcome is going to be, and I don't think throwing

2183
01:54:16,080 --> 01:54:18,400
Speaker 2: a bunch of money, you know, in advis is going

2184
01:54:18,439 --> 01:54:21,880
Speaker 2: to make a difference. I think that's also misunderstanding why

2185
01:54:22,240 --> 01:54:26,000
Speaker 2: Donnie's successful and how you know he's how he's built

2186
01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:30,280
Speaker 2: his campaign from the ground up. And again like it's

2187
01:54:30,320 --> 01:54:33,120
Speaker 2: it's again it's like different tactics, different message, but you

2188
01:54:33,120 --> 01:54:34,640
Speaker 2: know this idea that you can just throw a ton

2189
01:54:34,640 --> 01:54:37,080
Speaker 2: of money and somehow that makes makes the difference. I

2190
01:54:37,120 --> 01:54:38,640
Speaker 2: just think is antiquated.

2191
01:54:38,960 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 1: Look, the larger issue is this is an indictment of

2192
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:44,440
Speaker 1: democratic governance of blue cities. Right, and mom Donnie has

2193
01:54:44,480 --> 01:54:48,600
Speaker 1: a different answer than Daniel Luriy has, but they're both

2194
01:54:48,680 --> 01:54:49,720
Speaker 1: one for the same reason.

2195
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2196
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:53,800
Speaker 1: Right, they met the voters where they were. That's right,

2197
01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:56,880
Speaker 1: they met the voters where the voters were. Hard. Stop,

2198
01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:02,080
Speaker 1: Well do you like being a voter in New York

2199
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:03,720
Speaker 1: City this year or do you wish you weren't?

2200
01:55:04,280 --> 01:55:06,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it keeps it interesting, right, so

2201
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:08,920
Speaker 2: at least and like, look, half the time, we don't

2202
01:55:08,960 --> 01:55:11,200
Speaker 2: even really make it so competitive general election.

2203
01:55:11,000 --> 01:55:14,400
Speaker 1: Here, So he give me the first mayor since John

2204
01:55:14,440 --> 01:55:19,680
Speaker 1: Lindsay not to get a Majority's interesting. Yeah, here's a

2205
01:55:19,680 --> 01:55:24,600
Speaker 1: fun stat for you. Before Eric Adams, the three previous

2206
01:55:24,600 --> 01:55:29,960
Speaker 1: mayors all ran for president. Oh how about that? That

2207
01:55:30,120 --> 01:55:32,520
Speaker 1: is Rudy Bloomberg and de Blasia.

2208
01:55:33,720 --> 01:55:35,240
Speaker 2: I kind of always forget about Deblasio.

2209
01:55:35,520 --> 01:55:38,600
Speaker 1: Yeah you do, you and a bunch of other New Yorkers.

2210
01:55:38,520 --> 01:55:42,600
Speaker 2: I know, well, you know, look I get it, you know,

2211
01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:44,760
Speaker 2: as when I worked for marriage Vanna we used to

2212
01:55:44,800 --> 01:55:46,720
Speaker 2: talk about how the government he ran was, you know,

2213
01:55:46,880 --> 01:55:50,680
Speaker 2: more sizable than state of the State of Massachusetts, that

2214
01:55:50,720 --> 01:55:54,120
Speaker 2: governor Rombey. So I can see where you you know,

2215
01:55:54,160 --> 01:55:57,680
Speaker 2: we're from a governance perspective, there's there, there's like there's

2216
01:55:57,680 --> 01:56:01,200
Speaker 2: an equation there, but there is something. And I maybe

2217
01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:03,600
Speaker 2: from do this because I obviously, like I've worked for

2218
01:56:03,640 --> 01:56:06,280
Speaker 2: a government Jersey. I'm from upstate Europe, not the city.

2219
01:56:06,320 --> 01:56:09,280
Speaker 2: But I do like, I do like the kind of

2220
01:56:09,400 --> 01:56:13,320
Speaker 2: rebellious character, and I like, you know, kind of the

2221
01:56:13,600 --> 01:56:15,360
Speaker 2: a little bit of the anti estylish, which I think

2222
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:18,960
Speaker 2: is probably more roody than Boomberg. But I don't again

2223
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:21,480
Speaker 2: that becomes it's interesting because I don't know how how

2224
01:56:21,480 --> 01:56:24,720
Speaker 2: that ultimately translates. Right when you get on the national stage,

2225
01:56:24,880 --> 01:56:27,360
Speaker 2: it's it's it's more difficult, even though it can seem

2226
01:56:27,400 --> 01:56:31,360
Speaker 2: endearing or people like the idea that sometimes it isn't

2227
01:56:31,360 --> 01:56:33,320
Speaker 2: where you ultimately I guess want to see your president.

2228
01:56:33,400 --> 01:56:35,080
Speaker 2: But then Trump broke that bolt. So I don't know,

2229
01:56:35,200 --> 01:56:36,640
Speaker 2: like what, let me get.

2230
01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:40,400
Speaker 1: You out of here on this. How confident are you

2231
01:56:40,440 --> 01:56:42,120
Speaker 1: that you know who the next governor of New Jersey

2232
01:56:42,160 --> 01:56:48,920
Speaker 1: is not? Not? I think it's going to be the

2233
01:56:48,920 --> 01:56:50,839
Speaker 1: closest race. I think it's going to be the closest

2234
01:56:50,920 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 1: race of all but twenty five races. Maybe the California

2235
01:56:53,680 --> 01:56:57,440
Speaker 1: referendum on redistricting is super close to But ultimately I

2236
01:56:57,480 --> 01:57:00,360
Speaker 1: think that I think this is a nail bier person.

2237
01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I And for to be nail by in New

2238
01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:06,840
Speaker 2: Jersey is always interesting, right, And I think that's right

2239
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:09,960
Speaker 2: when you look at the last election and how close it.

2240
01:57:10,000 --> 01:57:15,040
Speaker 1: Was and just rather Beeryl in the environment.

2241
01:57:15,120 --> 01:57:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think and I and you know, there's

2242
01:57:18,200 --> 01:57:21,000
Speaker 2: been you know, sort of you're saying things Harris couldn't do,

2243
01:57:21,040 --> 01:57:23,680
Speaker 2: you know, sort of get Cheryl. I just feel like

2244
01:57:23,720 --> 01:57:28,480
Speaker 2: sometimes there are uh, some certain Democrats somebody feel too

2245
01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:30,920
Speaker 2: beholden to some of their special interest groups in a

2246
01:57:30,920 --> 01:57:34,840
Speaker 2: way that makes them comfortable in a general to kind

2247
01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:38,640
Speaker 2: of break away from a messaging perspective, which Republicans are more.

2248
01:57:38,680 --> 01:57:41,200
Speaker 2: I mean when I when Christie round, obviously you had

2249
01:57:41,200 --> 01:57:42,400
Speaker 2: to do that right.

2250
01:57:42,840 --> 01:57:45,040
Speaker 1: Well, and Republicans let them right?

2251
01:57:45,160 --> 01:57:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, where they gonna go?

2252
01:57:48,120 --> 01:57:52,640
Speaker 1: Who are they? And well Democrats, I don't know, Bill

2253
01:57:52,680 --> 01:57:55,160
Speaker 1: Clinton was the only one that had that attitude.

2254
01:57:55,600 --> 01:58:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you would be happy then would be alternative.

2255
01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:06,080
Speaker 1: So there's no doubt that the current leadership of the

2256
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:10,040
Speaker 1: sort of the democratic infrastructure is much I always say this,

2257
01:58:11,120 --> 01:58:15,680
Speaker 1: the Democratic strategist community is to the left of the voters,

2258
01:58:16,240 --> 01:58:19,040
Speaker 1: and the Republican strategist community is also to the left

2259
01:58:19,040 --> 01:58:21,800
Speaker 1: of the voters. But that allows them to talk to

2260
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:24,640
Speaker 1: swing voters, where the Democratic strategists are only talking to

2261
01:58:24,680 --> 01:58:28,360
Speaker 1: the base right, like, you know, and that's the you know,

2262
01:58:28,400 --> 01:58:32,280
Speaker 1: there's not enough frankly right of center consultants like yourself

2263
01:58:32,960 --> 01:58:34,280
Speaker 1: talking to the Democratic party.

2264
01:58:34,560 --> 01:58:36,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's a really actue. That's a

2265
01:58:36,560 --> 01:58:38,720
Speaker 2: really smart, great way to summarize. And I actually feel

2266
01:58:38,760 --> 01:58:41,280
Speaker 2: described sort of my experience when I've been working with

2267
01:58:41,400 --> 01:58:44,680
Speaker 2: Democrats that sort of captures sort of when I would

2268
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:46,680
Speaker 2: kind of be like, wait, what's going on here? So

2269
01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:47,880
Speaker 2: I think it's exactly that.

2270
01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:51,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Maria, this is great. I mean, you know, you

2271
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:54,600
Speaker 1: this is a lot like I said, I'm God, I

2272
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:58,600
Speaker 1: remember I think our conversation at a coffee shop. What

2273
01:58:58,640 --> 01:59:01,640
Speaker 1: do you think if working for Check's office, I'm like, yes,

2274
01:59:01,760 --> 01:59:04,120
Speaker 1: go to Iowa. Get to Iowa. That's where you want

2275
01:59:04,160 --> 01:59:06,720
Speaker 1: to be. Did you ever work for Grass leave for

2276
01:59:06,760 --> 01:59:08,920
Speaker 1: like ten seconds or you didn't do that one.

2277
01:59:09,000 --> 01:59:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't do I just Iowa just was a muscle.

2278
01:59:11,960 --> 01:59:14,760
Speaker 2: Eighteen months in Iowa for Mussel and then but I

2279
01:59:14,880 --> 01:59:17,680
Speaker 2: was right right a little Iowa was a long way right.

2280
01:59:17,960 --> 01:59:25,080
Speaker 2: It did, it did, and you know, yeah, I therefore

2281
01:59:25,080 --> 01:59:27,560
Speaker 2: then worked for presidential candidates who did not play well

2282
01:59:27,560 --> 01:59:28,320
Speaker 2: at all, always.

2283
01:59:28,040 --> 01:59:31,480
Speaker 1: Wanted to skip Iowa. And I've always felt like, you know,

2284
01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:34,240
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is is that it is ultimately

2285
01:59:34,480 --> 01:59:36,520
Speaker 1: if you tell voters you don't want to talk to them,

2286
01:59:36,680 --> 01:59:38,040
Speaker 1: that's going to burn you down the road.

2287
01:59:38,680 --> 01:59:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I think that's true.

2288
01:59:40,360 --> 01:59:43,040
Speaker 1: Skipping is a mistake. The skipping has always been a mistake.

2289
01:59:43,080 --> 01:59:45,320
Speaker 1: You don't have to compete as heavily, right, you can

2290
01:59:45,400 --> 01:59:48,480
Speaker 1: emphasize and say, hey, you know, I'm here, I'm going

2291
01:59:48,560 --> 01:59:51,080
Speaker 1: to show up here. But you know, I always thought

2292
01:59:51,120 --> 01:59:52,960
Speaker 1: I thought McCain got it right the second time.

2293
01:59:53,480 --> 01:59:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you almost have to live it because

2294
01:59:56,040 --> 01:59:59,280
Speaker 2: I think sometimes it becomes hard like a candidate, and

2295
01:59:59,320 --> 02:00:00,960
Speaker 2: I feel like this up into the few folks I

2296
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:03,600
Speaker 2: worked for, you know, you sort of are not going

2297
02:00:03,600 --> 02:00:05,120
Speaker 2: to spend a lot of time in Iowa, but then

2298
02:00:05,240 --> 02:00:06,680
Speaker 2: you kind of get pulled into Iowa.

2299
02:00:06,720 --> 02:00:09,400
Speaker 1: So then because there's always an event, right, there's an event,

2300
02:00:09,560 --> 02:00:12,120
Speaker 1: and then you're like, hey, the whole national press is

2301
02:00:12,120 --> 02:00:13,080
Speaker 1: going to be at the state fair.

2302
02:00:13,120 --> 02:00:15,320
Speaker 2: Maybe I have got a stage fair, right, so then

2303
02:00:15,360 --> 02:00:17,360
Speaker 2: you're kind of like half in, half out, So it

2304
02:00:17,480 --> 02:00:19,040
Speaker 2: ultimately like serves no purpose.

2305
02:00:19,360 --> 02:00:22,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, well and by the way, back then, both

2306
02:00:22,960 --> 02:00:25,720
Speaker 1: in sixteen and eight, obviously it's less so today I

2307
02:00:25,840 --> 02:00:28,160
Speaker 1: was a swing state. That was always where I thought

2308
02:00:28,200 --> 02:00:30,680
Speaker 1: it was a mistake because like, you're going to have

2309
02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:32,800
Speaker 1: to go back and talk to these voters because there's

2310
02:00:33,320 --> 02:00:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, and so that's where I've always I'm not

2311
02:00:37,280 --> 02:00:39,920
Speaker 1: surprised that everybody that's tried the new Hampshire only strategy

2312
02:00:39,960 --> 02:00:42,440
Speaker 1: it only worked for Clinton because everybody skipped Iowa because

2313
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:44,640
Speaker 1: Tom Harkin was in the race. Like you're just it

2314
02:00:44,720 --> 02:00:48,840
Speaker 1: is that is not the everybody took the incorrect lesson

2315
02:00:48,880 --> 02:00:52,680
Speaker 1: from Clinton because if there's no Harkin, Clinton doesn't skip Iowa. Frankly,

2316
02:00:52,800 --> 02:00:55,200
Speaker 1: Clinton is built for Iowa. He would have probably won

2317
02:00:55,240 --> 02:00:57,960
Speaker 1: the Coxes without Harken. Yeah, he's that kind of folksy

2318
02:00:58,080 --> 02:01:01,960
Speaker 1: kind of guy. So anyway, Maria, this is awesome. We're

2319
02:01:01,960 --> 02:01:03,000
Speaker 1: gonna have to do this more often.

2320
02:01:03,320 --> 02:01:15,320
Speaker 2: Yes, this was fun. Thanks for having well.

2321
02:01:15,320 --> 02:01:19,600
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Maria. I love

2322
02:01:19,760 --> 02:01:23,720
Speaker 1: that framing. Right, it's not Republicans for Harris. The question

2323
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:28,800
Speaker 1: was what can Democrats do for Republicans? Right? And I'll

2324
02:01:28,800 --> 02:01:31,200
Speaker 1: tell you this. Donald Trump is providing a lot of openings,

2325
02:01:31,600 --> 02:01:35,000
Speaker 1: whether it's on trade, whether it's on liberty, whether it's

2326
02:01:35,040 --> 02:01:39,320
Speaker 1: on less government. The question is whether there'll be a

2327
02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:43,840
Speaker 1: democratic politician nimble enough to take advantage of those openings.

2328
02:01:43,840 --> 02:01:45,360
Speaker 1: All right, let's do a few questions here. A little

2329
02:01:45,400 --> 02:01:54,360
Speaker 1: last Chuck, Ask Chuck. First question comes from Terry Any writs,

2330
02:01:54,360 --> 02:01:56,440
Speaker 1: I'm currently serving as a federal la enforcement officer to

2331
02:01:56,480 --> 02:01:59,800
Speaker 1: avoid future weaponization of the justice system, either real or perceived,

2332
02:01:59,800 --> 02:02:01,640
Speaker 1: can you tell me if this would be a viable

2333
02:02:01,920 --> 02:02:05,440
Speaker 1: reform option. Congress passes a law which states the Chief

2334
02:02:05,560 --> 02:02:07,720
Speaker 1: Justice of the Supreme Court nominates the Attorney General and

2335
02:02:07,840 --> 02:02:11,640
Speaker 1: heads of dog agencies FBI, at F, etc. Then they

2336
02:02:11,680 --> 02:02:14,000
Speaker 1: are confirmed by the Senate and serve seven year terms. Granted,

2337
02:02:14,000 --> 02:02:16,440
Speaker 1: even though all people have biases, this could assist in

2338
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:19,880
Speaker 1: removing the optics of an outwardly perceived politically motivated bias.

2339
02:02:20,080 --> 02:02:22,879
Speaker 1: Thank you, for your time, Terry. I love the idea

2340
02:02:22,880 --> 02:02:26,640
Speaker 1: and the concept behind this. I've actually proposed a I

2341
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:28,680
Speaker 1: wrote a column a few years ago that was proposing

2342
02:02:28,720 --> 02:02:31,680
Speaker 1: as similar that we moved the attorney general to five

2343
02:02:31,760 --> 02:02:35,680
Speaker 1: year terms and various offices, and you sort of stagger

2344
02:02:35,760 --> 02:02:40,839
Speaker 1: them so that maybe the top four positions you are,

2345
02:02:41,280 --> 02:02:44,120
Speaker 1: you know, those terms are finite five year terms, and

2346
02:02:44,440 --> 02:02:47,000
Speaker 1: you sort of you have it so that maybe a

2347
02:02:47,040 --> 02:02:51,760
Speaker 1: deputy AG was appointed by a Republican president, another deputy

2348
02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:54,240
Speaker 1: AG somebody who's a holdover fro you know, just like

2349
02:02:54,280 --> 02:02:58,000
Speaker 1: you have in the judiciary. It's an interesting I don't

2350
02:02:58,040 --> 02:03:00,400
Speaker 1: know if I would mix the branches right having the

2351
02:03:00,920 --> 02:03:04,040
Speaker 1: I take your I get the idea of using the

2352
02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:07,760
Speaker 1: head of the judiciary to do this, but you might

2353
02:03:08,520 --> 02:03:11,000
Speaker 1: considering that they have to sit in judgment sometimes of

2354
02:03:11,040 --> 02:03:14,240
Speaker 1: decisions made by the Department of Justice. Are you creating

2355
02:03:14,280 --> 02:03:18,880
Speaker 1: a potential conflict, right that could get exploited? So, but

2356
02:03:19,040 --> 02:03:21,880
Speaker 1: I generally agree with the larger idea here, which is

2357
02:03:22,400 --> 02:03:24,720
Speaker 1: I do not think the Attorney General should be appointed

2358
02:03:24,720 --> 02:03:29,040
Speaker 1: by the by the president, right like you know, you

2359
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:32,120
Speaker 1: know when we when I mean, it's it's still astonishing

2360
02:03:32,120 --> 02:03:34,600
Speaker 1: to me that we had a president appoint as brother

2361
02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:37,560
Speaker 1: attorney general. Right, you know, imagine if Donald Trump were

2362
02:03:37,560 --> 02:03:40,640
Speaker 1: trying to appoint you know, Eric Trump attorney general. I

2363
02:03:40,880 --> 02:03:43,960
Speaker 1: do think people would actually, and even in the Republican

2364
02:03:44,040 --> 02:03:47,160
Speaker 1: Party might say, well, that's a bridge too far. The

2365
02:03:47,240 --> 02:03:50,440
Speaker 1: fact though, it wasn't that long ago that this that

2366
02:03:50,560 --> 02:03:53,360
Speaker 1: this was sort of okayed, right, It's always been one

2367
02:03:53,360 --> 02:03:58,080
Speaker 1: of those that I think is a tough one to defend. So,

2368
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:02,520
Speaker 1: but the point is is, I do think if we're

2369
02:04:02,560 --> 02:04:06,800
Speaker 1: going to restore trust in law enforcement, we have to

2370
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:09,280
Speaker 1: figure out how to take as much politics out of

2371
02:04:09,320 --> 02:04:12,480
Speaker 1: it as we can. If it gets turned into some

2372
02:04:12,640 --> 02:04:16,200
Speaker 1: you know, why can't the same And of course the

2373
02:04:16,200 --> 02:04:19,000
Speaker 1: president's actually challenging the independence of the Federal Reserve. But

2374
02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:21,560
Speaker 1: in some ways the Department of Justice and the Federal

2375
02:04:21,600 --> 02:04:24,960
Speaker 1: Reserve ought to both be as independent as you can

2376
02:04:25,040 --> 02:04:28,880
Speaker 1: possibly make them. Given that you still have politicians helping

2377
02:04:28,920 --> 02:04:34,800
Speaker 1: to make these decisions, you certainly don't want you don't

2378
02:04:34,840 --> 02:04:37,520
Speaker 1: want it closer to the politicians, which, of course is

2379
02:04:37,520 --> 02:04:39,720
Speaker 1: what Donald Trump has done, right. He wants to make

2380
02:04:39,880 --> 02:04:44,600
Speaker 1: everything subject to the politicians. Look, if that's what the

2381
02:04:44,600 --> 02:04:47,840
Speaker 1: founders wanted, they would have embraced a direct democracy. Right.

2382
02:04:48,120 --> 02:04:51,120
Speaker 1: We're a republic for a reason. And so you know,

2383
02:04:51,840 --> 02:04:54,360
Speaker 1: this goes back to my frustration. I really don't think

2384
02:04:54,400 --> 02:04:57,960
Speaker 1: Donald trump On has ever been taught the Constitution. And

2385
02:04:58,000 --> 02:04:59,640
Speaker 1: if he was, then he didn't show up the class

2386
02:04:59,640 --> 02:05:02,280
Speaker 1: the day caught it. I don't think he at all

2387
02:05:02,360 --> 02:05:05,920
Speaker 1: understands that it was a document that that was that

2388
02:05:06,080 --> 02:05:09,960
Speaker 1: came into existence via compromise, Right, it wasn't you know?

2389
02:05:10,160 --> 02:05:12,480
Speaker 1: It was the founders couldn't agree on certain things, so

2390
02:05:12,480 --> 02:05:14,800
Speaker 1: they built in new compromises in order to find a

2391
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:18,240
Speaker 1: way to move forward. And you know, when we talk

2392
02:05:18,280 --> 02:05:20,280
Speaker 1: about and Charlie Cook talked about this in My and

2393
02:05:20,360 --> 02:05:23,720
Speaker 1: I interviewed a couple couple of podcasts ago when he said, hey,

2394
02:05:24,840 --> 02:05:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, you know this, when we talk about a

2395
02:05:29,120 --> 02:05:31,720
Speaker 1: lack of civics education, it isn't just hey, how many

2396
02:05:31,720 --> 02:05:34,760
Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices there are? Do you understand why we

2397
02:05:34,840 --> 02:05:37,240
Speaker 1: have the system that we have? Right? Why did the

2398
02:05:37,240 --> 02:05:40,840
Speaker 1: founders make these decisions? You know, I you know, and

2399
02:05:40,880 --> 02:05:42,600
Speaker 1: I know it comes across this market. I do not

2400
02:05:42,640 --> 02:05:44,120
Speaker 1: think the President of the United States has read a

2401
02:05:44,120 --> 02:05:48,440
Speaker 1: federal's paper. Okay, I really don't you want to call

2402
02:05:48,480 --> 02:05:52,080
Speaker 1: this Trump arrangement syndrome. Go ahead, show me where he's

2403
02:05:52,200 --> 02:05:57,280
Speaker 1: ever shown any sort of any sort of evidence that

2404
02:05:57,360 --> 02:06:02,120
Speaker 1: he's at all well read on the Federalist papers on

2405
02:06:02,280 --> 02:06:07,040
Speaker 1: why the Constitution turned out the way it did. He's

2406
02:06:07,160 --> 02:06:09,880
Speaker 1: never shown any evidence of this, you know, And I've

2407
02:06:09,880 --> 02:06:12,800
Speaker 1: told you you know. It drives me crazy that if

2408
02:06:12,840 --> 02:06:16,000
Speaker 1: somebody decides they want to be a United States Senator,

2409
02:06:16,120 --> 02:06:20,280
Speaker 1: United States congress person, or President of the United States,

2410
02:06:20,360 --> 02:06:24,200
Speaker 1: if they don't know some of the intricate history of

2411
02:06:24,960 --> 02:06:30,640
Speaker 1: the Constitution, you know, I don't think they're qualified. Now. Ultimately,

2412
02:06:30,680 --> 02:06:33,920
Speaker 1: the only qualifications are laid out in the Constitution. Most

2413
02:06:33,920 --> 02:06:36,320
Speaker 1: of them have to do with agent citizenship and that's

2414
02:06:36,320 --> 02:06:39,600
Speaker 1: about it. But I'd tell you, in a perfect world,

2415
02:06:39,640 --> 02:06:42,560
Speaker 1: I'd like to make anybody who files to the FEC

2416
02:06:42,680 --> 02:06:45,840
Speaker 1: to be a candidate for president ought to at least

2417
02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:48,600
Speaker 1: take a civics exam that we, as the voters, can

2418
02:06:48,640 --> 02:06:52,040
Speaker 1: see how they did. I'm not saying it would I

2419
02:06:52,040 --> 02:06:54,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't have the exam used to decide whether or not

2420
02:06:55,840 --> 02:06:59,160
Speaker 1: an agency would let them run for president. But I

2421
02:06:59,240 --> 02:07:01,680
Speaker 1: want in the same way, I want to see your

2422
02:07:01,720 --> 02:07:04,800
Speaker 1: health records to find out if you've if you're if

2423
02:07:04,840 --> 02:07:06,600
Speaker 1: you're up to the job, if you can handle the

2424
02:07:06,960 --> 02:07:09,440
Speaker 1: stresses of the job. I want to see your financial

2425
02:07:09,480 --> 02:07:11,320
Speaker 1: records to find out if you're a crook or not,

2426
02:07:11,920 --> 02:07:14,040
Speaker 1: and if you're going to use the job to correct yourself.

2427
02:07:14,240 --> 02:07:16,200
Speaker 1: And I want to know what kind of civics education

2428
02:07:16,280 --> 02:07:18,880
Speaker 1: you have. How do you view the Constitution? Do you

2429
02:07:19,080 --> 02:07:23,400
Speaker 1: know some of the rationales for why why we have

2430
02:07:23,480 --> 02:07:27,440
Speaker 1: the thirteenth Amendment, what birthright citizenship was was all about.

2431
02:07:27,520 --> 02:07:30,040
Speaker 1: I want to see the answers to those questions. As

2432
02:07:30,080 --> 02:07:33,240
Speaker 1: a citizen. It would help me decide whether you're, in

2433
02:07:33,360 --> 02:07:37,920
Speaker 1: my mind qualified to uphold what what what is said

2434
02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:41,600
Speaker 1: in that oath uphold the Constitution. But Terry your larger

2435
02:07:41,640 --> 02:07:45,440
Speaker 1: idea of essentially, how do I do think this ought

2436
02:07:45,440 --> 02:07:48,400
Speaker 1: to be a cause that somebody ought to take up?

2437
02:07:48,440 --> 02:07:50,920
Speaker 1: This is part of the constitutional convention? You know? I

2438
02:07:51,120 --> 02:07:54,160
Speaker 1: think about little things in Japan there, I believe it's

2439
02:07:54,200 --> 02:07:57,200
Speaker 1: in their in their legislature. Do you know one one

2440
02:07:57,240 --> 02:07:59,360
Speaker 1: little thing they do that I think is really smart?

2441
02:08:00,080 --> 02:08:03,919
Speaker 1: Their their version of an oversight committee is always shared

2442
02:08:04,000 --> 02:08:07,880
Speaker 1: by the leading minority party, you know. So the idea

2443
02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:10,240
Speaker 1: is that you always have some sort of bipartisan bounds

2444
02:08:10,240 --> 02:08:14,720
Speaker 1: so that oversight is always the opposite party. Political oversight

2445
02:08:14,840 --> 02:08:19,200
Speaker 1: is always the opposite party of who controls Japan's government.

2446
02:08:20,040 --> 02:08:22,640
Speaker 1: That's also an interesting model that we get. The point

2447
02:08:22,680 --> 02:08:24,120
Speaker 1: is is that there are a lot of reforms we

2448
02:08:24,120 --> 02:08:27,080
Speaker 1: could do that could bring some political trust back to

2449
02:08:27,120 --> 02:08:32,880
Speaker 1: the system, and yours is an idea worth considering. Like

2450
02:08:32,920 --> 02:08:36,440
Speaker 1: I said, the only flaw I see in your idea

2451
02:08:36,640 --> 02:08:41,000
Speaker 1: is having the head of the judiciary branch potentially having

2452
02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:43,520
Speaker 1: a conflict of deciding who the prosecutors are, etc. But

2453
02:08:44,880 --> 02:08:47,560
Speaker 1: the larger idea I think holds and it would be

2454
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:50,520
Speaker 1: a we got to get somewhere to deal with this trust.

2455
02:08:51,280 --> 02:08:55,200
Speaker 1: All right, Next question comes from George E from Burlington, Iowa.

2456
02:08:55,320 --> 02:08:57,960
Speaker 1: All Right, dear Chuck. In your August twenty first episode,

2457
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:00,720
Speaker 1: you've floated the idea of a constitutional convention. I worry

2458
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:03,320
Speaker 1: such a process would produce delegates more focused on self

2459
02:09:03,320 --> 02:09:06,240
Speaker 1: promotion than real solutions. Instead, I think a small bipartisan

2460
02:09:06,240 --> 02:09:09,280
Speaker 1: committee of senators and representatives could draft a constitutional amendment

2461
02:09:09,280 --> 02:09:13,840
Speaker 1: addressing two divisive issues, abortion and guns, by finding terms

2462
02:09:13,840 --> 02:09:15,760
Speaker 1: both sides could live with. As a retired lawyer, I've

2463
02:09:15,760 --> 02:09:18,040
Speaker 1: seen compromise work this way negotiations, and I wonder if

2464
02:09:18,040 --> 02:09:20,520
Speaker 1: such a model could help us move past the all

2465
02:09:20,600 --> 02:09:23,760
Speaker 1: or nothing mindset that fuels division today. Thanks, it's an

2466
02:09:23,760 --> 02:09:28,480
Speaker 1: interesting thought, you know. And and you know, one could argue, look,

2467
02:09:28,560 --> 02:09:31,640
Speaker 1: I I we should not be afraid of a constitutional convention.

2468
02:09:32,040 --> 02:09:34,080
Speaker 1: I understand, you know, and I've said this before. I

2469
02:09:34,400 --> 02:09:37,320
Speaker 1: think if you fear it, then hey, the democracy's alls

2470
02:09:37,320 --> 02:09:40,920
Speaker 1: already lost. It's sort of like I I'm putting my

2471
02:09:40,960 --> 02:09:43,680
Speaker 1: trust in the voters because if I can't trust them,

2472
02:09:43,720 --> 02:09:45,920
Speaker 1: then the whole then the whole experiment is over anyway.

2473
02:09:46,560 --> 02:09:53,840
Speaker 1: So but I do I think that a high you know,

2474
02:09:53,920 --> 02:09:58,880
Speaker 1: what I'd love to see is almost like a Remember

2475
02:09:58,920 --> 02:10:01,000
Speaker 1: we had the Simpson Bowls Commission to try to deal

2476
02:10:01,000 --> 02:10:02,560
Speaker 1: with the debt, and they come up, came up with

2477
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:04,440
Speaker 1: a plan, and there was this idea that you know,

2478
02:10:04,520 --> 02:10:07,880
Speaker 1: it was you know, okay, and if they could you know,

2479
02:10:07,960 --> 02:10:10,960
Speaker 1: that plan might get ratified up or down in Congress,

2480
02:10:10,960 --> 02:10:12,800
Speaker 1: if they could come up to an agreement. Turns out

2481
02:10:12,800 --> 02:10:14,960
Speaker 1: the committee themselves didn't get to the I think the

2482
02:10:15,000 --> 02:10:17,120
Speaker 1: two thirds agreement necessary through whatever it was and the

2483
02:10:17,880 --> 02:10:20,560
Speaker 1: rules that they did. But you know, we have the

2484
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:23,160
Speaker 1: two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the country coming up

2485
02:10:23,160 --> 02:10:27,720
Speaker 1: of our independence. I certainly would love to see a

2486
02:10:27,800 --> 02:10:32,879
Speaker 1: bipartisan team of senators and representatives come up with various

2487
02:10:33,160 --> 02:10:35,480
Speaker 1: constitutional amendments. Right, what would the balance What would a

2488
02:10:35,520 --> 02:10:37,720
Speaker 1: balance budget amendment look like that that was sort of

2489
02:10:38,280 --> 02:10:41,839
Speaker 1: approved by a bipartisan panel. What could you talked about guns?

2490
02:10:42,000 --> 02:10:44,640
Speaker 1: I'd throw in I think campaign personally, I'd deal with

2491
02:10:44,680 --> 02:10:49,160
Speaker 1: campaign finances. And I think that a place where you

2492
02:10:49,200 --> 02:10:51,560
Speaker 1: could potentially get areas of agreement. Right, I think you

2493
02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:54,600
Speaker 1: need something from stage left, something from stage right, balance

2494
02:10:54,640 --> 02:10:58,880
Speaker 1: budget amendment, and stage right, perhaps campaign finance reform, some

2495
02:10:58,920 --> 02:11:01,440
Speaker 1: form on stage left. I think that there would be

2496
02:11:01,560 --> 02:11:04,480
Speaker 1: some some some interest in that on both sides of

2497
02:11:04,480 --> 02:11:10,920
Speaker 1: the aisle. Interesting idea on abortion, I don't know if

2498
02:11:10,920 --> 02:11:12,680
Speaker 1: you could get to the I don't I don't know

2499
02:11:12,760 --> 02:11:16,640
Speaker 1: if you could get to language that would that could

2500
02:11:16,640 --> 02:11:20,360
Speaker 1: get approved, it could get the get it ratified. But

2501
02:11:20,560 --> 02:11:24,040
Speaker 1: I I like the larger idea of let's, you know,

2502
02:11:24,200 --> 02:11:27,480
Speaker 1: essentially borrow from the Simpson Bowls Committee. Create a committee

2503
02:11:27,520 --> 02:11:30,600
Speaker 1: that is you know, some active members of Congress, maybe

2504
02:11:30,600 --> 02:11:33,840
Speaker 1: some former members, maybe a few you know, people, uh,

2505
02:11:34,120 --> 02:11:37,960
Speaker 1: former governors, you know, a couple of academics and see

2506
02:11:37,960 --> 02:11:41,560
Speaker 1: what see what they come up with. Wouldn't you know

2507
02:11:41,800 --> 02:11:47,200
Speaker 1: a in a with a different president, I think you could.

2508
02:11:47,760 --> 02:11:49,520
Speaker 1: You could feel like that you could have a commission

2509
02:11:49,640 --> 02:11:52,240
Speaker 1: like that that would be taken seriously. I don't fear

2510
02:11:52,280 --> 02:11:55,000
Speaker 1: that if this president signed an executive order of some

2511
02:11:55,040 --> 02:11:58,760
Speaker 1: sort doing it, it wouldn't have the same They wouldn't

2512
02:11:58,760 --> 02:12:01,440
Speaker 1: have the same credibility for enough people to be taken seriously.

2513
02:12:01,480 --> 02:12:05,720
Speaker 1: But look, I'm i am, I'm not going to fear

2514
02:12:05,720 --> 02:12:10,240
Speaker 1: the constitutional convention, but I like your idea as well.

2515
02:12:10,360 --> 02:12:17,960
Speaker 1: I certainly would love to see to see what a

2516
02:12:18,000 --> 02:12:21,680
Speaker 1: group of elected officials from both sides of the aisle

2517
02:12:21,720 --> 02:12:24,640
Speaker 1: could come up with. All right, last one, Kevin C

2518
02:12:24,760 --> 02:12:27,600
Speaker 1: from Pennsylvania says, Hey, Chuck, just finishing finished listening to

2519
02:12:27,600 --> 02:12:29,640
Speaker 1: your great talk with Charlie Cook and your commentary on

2520
02:12:30,280 --> 02:12:33,800
Speaker 1: Charlie Cook. The obvious difficulty of doing one got me wondering,

2521
02:12:33,880 --> 02:12:37,160
Speaker 1: what about an unofficial, non binding convention organized and run

2522
02:12:37,200 --> 02:12:40,360
Speaker 1: by a hopefully bipartisan group of smart people, including educators,

2523
02:12:40,400 --> 02:12:43,240
Speaker 1: business people, members of the press, military, and normal citizens.

2524
02:12:43,240 --> 02:12:45,400
Speaker 1: It would require a lot of resources to put it together,

2525
02:12:45,680 --> 02:12:47,680
Speaker 1: but it could be as you said, an incredible educational

2526
02:12:47,720 --> 02:12:50,840
Speaker 1: opportunity for the whole country. Referring to constitutional convention, I

2527
02:12:50,840 --> 02:12:52,440
Speaker 1: think there's an excellent chance that it could lead to

2528
02:12:52,440 --> 02:12:54,560
Speaker 1: a popular demand for the real thing. Thanks for your

2529
02:12:54,600 --> 02:12:59,160
Speaker 1: great conversations. I'm learning a lot for an old guy. Well, Kevin, Thanks,

2530
02:13:00,000 --> 02:13:02,720
Speaker 1: I appreciate. I think we're always I'd like to think.

2531
02:13:02,760 --> 02:13:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm I want to always be ultimately in the education business.

2532
02:13:07,440 --> 02:13:10,520
Speaker 1: Look same thing, right, I think if we could do

2533
02:13:10,920 --> 02:13:13,000
Speaker 1: which is why I went in and added this question,

2534
02:13:14,120 --> 02:13:16,920
Speaker 1: I think the exercise could be healthy. It would be

2535
02:13:16,960 --> 02:13:20,440
Speaker 1: a lot. I'd love to be a government teach, high

2536
02:13:20,480 --> 02:13:23,400
Speaker 1: school government teacher if something like this were happening, right,

2537
02:13:23,480 --> 02:13:25,720
Speaker 1: I mean you get to, you know, in some ways,

2538
02:13:25,880 --> 02:13:28,640
Speaker 1: you get to use the real world to help you teach.

2539
02:13:30,560 --> 02:13:33,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, it would lead I think to a massive

2540
02:13:33,200 --> 02:13:38,280
Speaker 1: national civics education that we are long overdue on. It

2541
02:13:38,320 --> 02:13:41,200
Speaker 1: would be healthy. It would be fantastic to coincide with

2542
02:13:41,240 --> 02:13:47,880
Speaker 1: the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary and of Independence Day.

2543
02:13:47,920 --> 02:13:52,960
Speaker 1: But you know, I unfortunately think that partisans in both

2544
02:13:53,000 --> 02:13:56,080
Speaker 1: parties aren't ready to have that kind of conversation, right,

2545
02:13:58,120 --> 02:14:03,480
Speaker 1: and and you know, but you know, we can hope, right.

2546
02:14:03,720 --> 02:14:05,800
Speaker 1: Maybe the best way to get this started is to

2547
02:14:05,800 --> 02:14:08,360
Speaker 1: get a bunch of formers. You know, there's a hole,

2548
02:14:08,400 --> 02:14:11,240
Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's a nonprofit group of literally

2549
02:14:11,240 --> 02:14:13,320
Speaker 1: former members of Congress. They get together I think once

2550
02:14:13,400 --> 02:14:16,920
Speaker 1: or twice a year in some form or another. Marty Frost,

2551
02:14:17,280 --> 02:14:20,120
Speaker 1: former member and a friend of mine, was very active

2552
02:14:20,120 --> 02:14:24,880
Speaker 1: in it for quite some time. You know, maybe they

2553
02:14:24,880 --> 02:14:27,800
Speaker 1: could you know, maybe Brookings and Heritage could get together,

2554
02:14:27,960 --> 02:14:30,360
Speaker 1: Brookings and AI. Maybe they would get along better than

2555
02:14:30,360 --> 02:14:33,920
Speaker 1: Heritage because Heritage is not really an independent think tank anymore.

2556
02:14:33,960 --> 02:14:36,520
Speaker 1: They're just an arm of the Trump administration. But AI

2557
02:14:36,880 --> 02:14:40,400
Speaker 1: is sort of independent conservatives, Brookings independent liberals. You know,

2558
02:14:40,440 --> 02:14:43,280
Speaker 1: maybe they could get together and show us what a

2559
02:14:43,320 --> 02:14:46,440
Speaker 1: constitutional convention could look like. Maybe the Presidential Library System

2560
02:14:46,480 --> 02:14:49,560
Speaker 1: could host it. Maybe, you know, maybe the Clinton and

2561
02:14:49,600 --> 02:14:53,480
Speaker 1: Bush Libraries to could together put something there. We have

2562
02:14:53,560 --> 02:14:59,000
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting venues that could that could lean

2563
02:14:59,040 --> 02:15:02,760
Speaker 1: into this sort of small d democratic renewal that I

2564
02:15:02,800 --> 02:15:06,400
Speaker 1: think the country desperately needs. Right in the same way

2565
02:15:06,400 --> 02:15:08,640
Speaker 1: we needed to repair roads and bridges, we need to

2566
02:15:08,680 --> 02:15:11,200
Speaker 1: repair the infrastructure of our democracy. We need to update

2567
02:15:11,240 --> 02:15:16,520
Speaker 1: the infrastructure of our democracy and you know, why not

2568
02:15:16,760 --> 02:15:19,080
Speaker 1: the Bush Library at SMU, the Clinton Library and Little

2569
02:15:19,120 --> 02:15:21,120
Speaker 1: Rock work together to see what I did there a

2570
02:15:21,120 --> 02:15:26,440
Speaker 1: little plug for the SMU. But put them together and

2571
02:15:25,960 --> 02:15:29,080
Speaker 1: they could be interesting hosts for this. Yes, it might

2572
02:15:29,120 --> 02:15:32,680
Speaker 1: get negative commentary from the current occupant of the Oval Office,

2573
02:15:33,520 --> 02:15:35,520
Speaker 1: but maybe that would only bring attention to the idea.

2574
02:15:35,600 --> 02:15:38,040
Speaker 1: And as you said, if we sort of mock this

2575
02:15:38,160 --> 02:15:41,360
Speaker 1: out a little bit, maybe it would suddenly drive interest

2576
02:15:41,400 --> 02:15:45,840
Speaker 1: into having the real thing. All Right, with that, you've

2577
02:15:45,840 --> 02:15:49,760
Speaker 1: heard enough of my voice today. Let me take a

2578
02:15:49,760 --> 02:15:56,640
Speaker 1: break for twenty four hours until we upload them.