Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
Speaker 3: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
Speaker 3: love our careers and our families.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 1: Term career goals.
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2: This episode is airing in early April of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: I am sitting here in Sarah's closet for yet another episode.
Speaker 2: This is exciting how many we've managed to get done here, Sarah. Yes,
Speaker 2: this will be our last and a train of four
Speaker 2: live episodes. Although the interview, the interview is not no No,
Speaker 2: So this week we're excited to welcome Jessica Turner to
Speaker 2: the show. Jessica Turner is a previous guest on Best
Speaker 2: of Both Worlds. She joined us several years ago when
Speaker 2: she was talking about making time for passions alongside being
Speaker 2: a full time working mom.
Speaker 1: She had a lot of great advice with that.
Speaker 2: But she is now the author of a new book
Speaker 2: that is called I Thought It would be Better than This,
Speaker 2: which is the story of her long marriage coming apart
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago in the divorce that was
Speaker 2: a result of her husband coming out as gay, which
Speaker 2: she was supportive of him and his new identity, but
Speaker 2: also meant the end of the relationship she thought they
Speaker 2: had to gather and how they have navigated that new
Speaker 2: situation her life after this experience. A lot of fascinating
Speaker 2: stuff in her story, and it's not just about her story.
Speaker 1: Though, too.
Speaker 2: It's also a self help book about how all of
Speaker 2: us can be more resilient when life gives you something
Speaker 2: that's a little bit disappointing, hence the title I Thought
Speaker 2: it would be better than This. So, Sarah, we're not
Speaker 2: going to talk about recent medical issues. It's a little
Speaker 2: bit soon for that, but that aside. Are there things
Speaker 2: you've had in life that you thought would be better
Speaker 2: than this?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: One thing that comes to mind is that I had
Speaker 3: this vision of my kids all going to the same
Speaker 3: school all the way through Anna all finishing eighth grade.
Speaker 3: This like cute little vision of just like dropping them
Speaker 3: off and we're so comfortable, and you know.
Speaker 1: It didn't work out.
Speaker 3: You know, the alternative has been a little more annoying.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it was a pivot that
Speaker 3: we had to make, and I definitely think it was
Speaker 3: for the best. So that was a good, good example
Speaker 3: of something where I kind of had like a path
Speaker 3: in my head, this little ideal that turned out.
Speaker 1: Just to not not exists. Yeah, I thought it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and this is something so silly, but
Speaker 2: I think all of us have experienced it that the
Speaker 2: vacations with your family, and particularly with small children. In theory,
Speaker 2: a trip to I don't know, some Caribbean island sounds
Speaker 2: luxurious and exotic and RESTful and relaxing, and then you're like,
Speaker 2: but wait, I still have my own small children with
Speaker 2: me for this trip to this exotic, luxurious place. And
Speaker 2: so I think every time we take a vacation with family,
Speaker 2: I have learned to keep my expectations limited to you know,
Speaker 2: we are going to have some great moments. Not every
Speaker 2: moment is going to be awesome, because if you expect
Speaker 2: every moment to be awesome, and then you're like going
Speaker 2: to be repeating the title here.
Speaker 1: I thought it would be better than this, and.
Speaker 2: That can be be disappointing, But I think it's so
Speaker 2: amazing what Jessica has her business, She's produced over the
Speaker 2: past few years. She's a very well known influencer now
Speaker 2: and how she has come through this situation with so
Speaker 2: much resilience is very inspiring. So I'm looking forward to
Speaker 2: the interview with Jessica. So Sarah and I are delighted
Speaker 2: to welcome Jessica Turner to this show. So, Jessica, thank
Speaker 2: you for joining us.
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: And in fact, you are glad to be back, because
Speaker 2: it turns out we had you on the show in
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen when you were talking about a different book,
Speaker 2: The Fun The Fringe Hours.
Speaker 1: We talked a lot about side hustles and all that.
Speaker 2: But your life has changed a lot since twenty eighteen,
Speaker 2: So why didn't you tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 5: It sure has well. In twenty nineteen, my husband of
Speaker 5: sixteen years came out to me and that completely rocked
Speaker 5: my world. As one can imagine, we had three kids,
Speaker 5: I had no idea. We kind of wrestled with the
Speaker 5: idea of a mixed orientation for marriage for a while,
Speaker 5: and then in twenty twenty the world shut down, and
Speaker 5: so we remained married for a period of time and
Speaker 5: decided that even though we were in the midst of
Speaker 5: a pandemic, the best, most loving thing to do ourselves
Speaker 5: and our family was to divorce, and so we divorced
Speaker 5: in June of twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: And it was at that time where I just felt
Speaker 4: like my entire life kind of shattered. All of the.
Speaker 5: Dreams that I had for what life would look like.
Speaker 5: The companion that I thought I would grow old with,
Speaker 5: like all of that was gone and was different, and
Speaker 5: I had to really lean into finding myself. I met
Speaker 5: my husband when I was twenty we were married when
Speaker 5: I was twenty two, and so I didn't know adulthood
Speaker 5: apart from being married to him, and so that was
Speaker 5: a journey that I went on.
Speaker 4: And my new book is titled I Thought it would
Speaker 4: be Better.
Speaker 5: Than This, And it is for anyone who's facing disappointment,
Speaker 5: greed in the midst of it.
Speaker 4: It isn't a divorce book. It really is a book
Speaker 4: for no matter what your disappointment is.
Speaker 5: If you thought your marriage would be better than this,
Speaker 5: you thought your career would be better than this, You
Speaker 5: thought your finances would be better than this, their parenting,
Speaker 5: whatever this is is instead of putting it period on this,
Speaker 5: putting a COMMA on it, and saying, Okay, I'm going
Speaker 5: to I still have agency over my story, And how
Speaker 5: can I look at this disappointment as an opportunity to
Speaker 5: make different choices than I thought I was going to
Speaker 5: have to make, but still choices that I'm proud of
Speaker 5: in that building a life that I love.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean everyone has some area of their life that
Speaker 2: they thought would be better than it turns out to
Speaker 2: be whatever it happens to be. Yeah. Well, I thought
Speaker 2: it was so interesting. We've talked a little bit on
Speaker 2: social media. You guys considered not divorcing. I mean, you
Speaker 2: just mentioned that as you were telling your story. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm very curious what the thought process was there. You said, Okay,
Speaker 2: my husband is gay. That is obviously not what I
Speaker 2: thought was happening here. Really, what was involved in that
Speaker 2: decision and deciding that was as an imperfect choice as
Speaker 2: it was, that that was the best choice.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So he first told me that he was by
Speaker 4: in the.
Speaker 5: Spring of twenty nineteen, and then in the fall was
Speaker 5: when he came out to me and said I'm gay.
Speaker 5: And the book actually opens with that story. It's a
Speaker 5: very vulnerable piece that honestly I can't read it and not.
Speaker 4: Cry remembering that day.
Speaker 5: Then we, you know, we still loved each other, and
Speaker 5: we loved our kids, and we loved our family. And
Speaker 5: my ex husband is a writer as well, and so
Speaker 5: our work was kind of enmeshed in some ways, and
Speaker 5: it felt hard to stay married, but it also felt
Speaker 5: hard to divorce. And I talk about, as you just
Speaker 5: said in the book, the idea of imperfect choices, and
Speaker 5: I think that's so much of what life is, where
Speaker 5: we have two imperfect choices, and so we just have
Speaker 5: to decide what is the best one. And on some
Speaker 5: days it felt like the best, imperfect choice was to
Speaker 5: stay married, and on other days it felt like the
Speaker 5: best and perfect choice was to get divorced. And ultimately,
Speaker 5: as we both grappled with it, both together and independently,
Speaker 5: we knew that the best choice was for us to
Speaker 5: get divorced. That the genie was out of the bottle,
Speaker 5: so to speak, and you can't unknow what you now know,
Speaker 5: and that was the best choice, even though it was
Speaker 5: extremely difficult to make that decision.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've certainly heard from people who've gone
Speaker 2: through divorces that it's not just the loss of your marriage, right,
Speaker 2: which obviously is a huge thing, But then there's a
Speaker 2: million little things, right like what I'm doing for Thanksgiving
Speaker 2: next year, like in some world that probably involved in
Speaker 2: laws or like you know, some distant cousin of your
Speaker 2: exes or whatever that you would have been seeing, and
Speaker 2: then that becomes less of a thing, like those smaller
Speaker 2: things that along the way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I.
Speaker 5: Think that's true for any sort of grief, that there's
Speaker 5: the big, capital g grief that happens, but then we
Speaker 5: also grieve a lot of small things. I said, for me,
Speaker 5: I kind of envisioned it like a battlefield, and I
Speaker 5: was grieving all of these losses, all of these dreams
Speaker 5: that and unmet expectations that were not going to come
Speaker 5: to fruition. But that also makes way for new dreams
Speaker 5: and new possibilities. And I'm thankful that Matthew and I
Speaker 5: have a great relationship. We co parent really well, we
Speaker 5: live in the same neighborhood, we see our kids every day,
Speaker 5: and so I'm thankful that we were able to get
Speaker 5: to a place where even though parenting and our family
Speaker 5: looks different than we imagined, it's still family and still
Speaker 5: something that we can do together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're definitely going to talk about that, about navigating
Speaker 2: a co parenting relationship. But what are the things I've
Speaker 2: found so fascinating your book? You mentioned you planned a
Speaker 2: funeral for your marriage and then canceled it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, you don't often get to cancel a funeral,
Speaker 5: but I did.
Speaker 4: In fact, my therapist said, you.
Speaker 5: Know what if you wrote a eulogy for your marriage
Speaker 5: and you kind of processed the idea of all of
Speaker 5: these things that you're mourning but also celebrating all of
Speaker 5: the things that happened in your marriage.
Speaker 4: You know, I think that it is narrow minded.
Speaker 5: To consider a marriage that ends in divorce as being
Speaker 5: a failure. And I think that I failed with something
Speaker 5: that I wrestled with because my marriage didn't remain intact.
Speaker 5: And so that exercise of planning a funeral, writing a
Speaker 5: eulogy for this disappointment in my life was a way
Speaker 5: for me to kind of turn that thinking on its
Speaker 5: head and really celebrate all of the good things in
Speaker 5: the beauty that came from.
Speaker 1: It, Yeah, because it's definitely a complex thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, had he acknowledged at age twenty five
Speaker 2: his orientation, you wouldn't have had this marriage that produced
Speaker 2: three amazing.
Speaker 4: Children, that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so these are the things, the complex choices
Speaker 2: that happen here.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 5: And there's good and bad things right from that, you know.
Speaker 5: And so it is one of those situations where there's
Speaker 5: both good and bad, and I think that is really
Speaker 5: what life is. I think it's interesting that we learn,
Speaker 5: you know, chemistry, equations and physics and weird math stuff
Speaker 5: that we never use in life, but we don't know
Speaker 5: learn how to navigate disappointment and grief, which is something
Speaker 5: that is prevalent in everyone's story at.
Speaker 1: Some point, pretty much universal.
Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
Speaker 2: then we will be back with more from Jessica Turner. Well,
Speaker 2: I am back with Jessica Turner, who is the author
Speaker 2: of the brand new book. I thought it would be
Speaker 2: better than this about her experience navigating divorce, the aftermath
Speaker 2: of that, and then figuring out how you can create
Speaker 2: a new life after some sort of disappointment. I want
Speaker 2: to talk about your co parenting because I mean, when
Speaker 2: I have seen some of the things you guys do together,
Speaker 2: I mean it sounds like everything is hunky dory, but
Speaker 2: I am imagining it took some work to get to
Speaker 2: that place.
Speaker 1: Is that true?
Speaker 5: Yes, and certainly not everything is hunky dory every day.
Speaker 4: So while we have made it.
Speaker 5: A priority to put our kids first, to try to
Speaker 5: have some major moments together, you know, like we always
Speaker 5: do Christmas together, We try to travel as a unit
Speaker 5: of five once or twice a year together. It definitely
Speaker 5: takes work.
Speaker 4: And I went.
Speaker 5: To Portugal with Matthew and the kids in March and
Speaker 5: scheduled a therapy appointment for when I got home.
Speaker 4: Because I knew that I would need it.
Speaker 5: So, you know, I think that it is prioritizing our
Speaker 5: kids and making things work, and also, you know, continuing
Speaker 5: to invest in a friendship. You know, though our relationship
Speaker 5: is different, we're still really good friends and we ultimately
Speaker 5: want what's best for our kids. And one of the
Speaker 5: things that I've consistently heard on social media.
Speaker 4: I'm on Instagram.
Speaker 5: My name's Jessica and Turner there and people message me
Speaker 5: all the time saying I wish my parents had done this.
Speaker 5: I come from a divorce family, and I wish that
Speaker 5: my parents could have tolerated being in the same room,
Speaker 5: and so that was just not going to be a
Speaker 5: way that we wanted our kids' lives to be.
Speaker 1: But isn't that hard.
Speaker 2: I mean, I imagine that even if you feel different
Speaker 2: now several years after the fact, in the first year
Speaker 2: or two afterwards, that had to have been more challenging.
Speaker 4: I don't think so.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think that there was certainly pain from
Speaker 5: the divorce, but there was also a lot of tenderness
Speaker 5: and love. You know, maybe that is partly because of
Speaker 5: the way my marriage ended with Matthew coming out, and
Speaker 5: so I certainly had tenderness for him, and I saw
Speaker 5: how it was good for my kids, and you know,
Speaker 5: certainly we would put different boundaries in place of space
Speaker 5: that we needed and that sort of thing. But I
Speaker 5: wouldn't ever say, gosh, it was really hard to do
Speaker 5: Christmas with Matthew or anything like that. I think that
Speaker 5: that is a notion that people often expect, but I
Speaker 5: think that probably comes with relationships that end in a
Speaker 5: lot of volatility, which is not the way our relationship ended.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, that probably does make it a little
Speaker 2: bit more straightforward, and you've also logistically arranged it so
Speaker 2: it is easy for you guys to coparent.
Speaker 1: Write you said he lives in the same neighborhood.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm, yeah, and that is a grace. I don't
Speaker 5: know that, but it will always be that way, but
Speaker 5: at least for this first part of our post divorce life. Yeah,
Speaker 5: we have been fortunate that he lives just on the street,
Speaker 5: which has made it really convenient for the kids to
Speaker 5: have two houses in the same neighborhood and for us
Speaker 5: to navigate co parenting with a little bit of ease.
Speaker 1: And do you wind up pretty much splitting at fifty
Speaker 1: to fifty or is there some other sort of arrangement.
Speaker 5: No, our arrangement is a sixty forty split, So he
Speaker 5: has the kids Sunday to Wednesday morning and then I
Speaker 5: have them Wednesday to Sunday. Ex But we're really good
Speaker 5: about like being flexible if someone has a work event
Speaker 5: or you know, like I have basically every weekend with
Speaker 5: the way we have it split, So if I am
Speaker 5: going to go away for the weekend or something like that,
Speaker 5: Matthew's always willing to be flexible on that, which I'm grateful.
Speaker 2: For Yeah, well, I laughed in the part of your
Speaker 2: book where you mentioned calling him over to plunge your toilet.
Speaker 1: Yes, he's still on husband duty occasionally.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely certainly. Now that I have a sixteen year old,
Speaker 5: I have someone else in the house who.
Speaker 4: Can help with some of those.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I I didn't know how to plunge a
Speaker 5: toilet and was definitely one of our sons, So Matthew
Speaker 5: came on over and helped.
Speaker 4: Me with that.
Speaker 1: So absolutely.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: Part of it is you said you had to learn
Speaker 2: to navigate adult life on your own afterwards, because you
Speaker 2: guys married when you said you were twenty two.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you had probably never really lived alone as
Speaker 2: an adult.
Speaker 4: That's right. Yeah.
Speaker 5: I never had, literally, except for the couple months after
Speaker 5: I graduated college before I got married. Was the only
Speaker 5: time that I ever lived alone. So there was a
Speaker 5: lot that I just never had to do, and so
Speaker 5: I had to learn it myself or I had to
Speaker 5: get help or hire people.
Speaker 4: And I talk about in I thought.
Speaker 5: It would be better than this, the importance of bringing
Speaker 5: in experts when you don't know something, and the experts
Speaker 5: can be friends that you know that are in fields
Speaker 5: that you are interested in or that you need support in,
Speaker 5: or it could be hiring people, it could be going
Speaker 5: to the library. But sometimes we just don't know what
Speaker 5: we don't know, and we have to be open to
Speaker 5: learning or getting help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, especially on something like finances, right, that
Speaker 2: was I think an area that you felt particularly was
Speaker 2: not something you'd learned about.
Speaker 5: It was something that certainly I knew how to manage
Speaker 5: my own personal finances, but in terms of managing my
Speaker 5: businesses finances, that was definitely something that I needed some
Speaker 5: support in and that I was really grateful that I
Speaker 5: found a financial planner who could help me navigate that
Speaker 5: and be also a sounding.
Speaker 4: Board for me.
Speaker 5: Something that I didn't realize until I was divorced is
Speaker 5: just how lonely it is to make one hundred percent
Speaker 5: of decisions by yourself to not have somebody to be
Speaker 5: a sounding board. And so for me having experts like
Speaker 5: a financial planner, like some other people that I've hired
Speaker 5: on my team, that they have been there to help me.
Speaker 1: Sort of excellent. Excellent.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk a little bit about that business, because
Speaker 2: when you were on here in twenty eighteen, we were
Speaker 2: talking about your side hustle. You you know, were the
Speaker 2: mom creative doing various cool crafts and like all sorts
Speaker 2: of lifestyle content and things like that. But during this
Speaker 2: whole time, you'd also had a pretty traditional job as well.
Speaker 4: Correct, that's right, yep.
Speaker 5: At that time, I worked for a large healthcare system
Speaker 5: doing corporate marketing and social media, and then was doing
Speaker 5: blogging and book writing on the side. I literally wrote
Speaker 5: my first two books while having a job in corporate America.
Speaker 5: And when the dream of my marriage died, I was like,
Speaker 5: I am not letting another dream die, and so worked
Speaker 5: to save to a place where I felt comfortable with
Speaker 5: leaving that corporate job. And now, gosh, it's been over
Speaker 5: three years maybe four that I've been a full time influencer,
Speaker 5: which has been just amazing and really a dream come true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm curious why you hadn't necessarily done that before.
Speaker 2: I think you mentioned in the book that you know,
Speaker 2: you guys had become comfortable in a lot of sort
Speaker 2: of roles that you were both playing in your marriage,
Speaker 2: and yours was the one where you went and brought
Speaker 2: in the health insurance.
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right, And I think health insurance is one
Speaker 5: of those things that feels scary in America. And you know,
Speaker 5: I was working for a healthcare system and so I
Speaker 5: had very good health insurance. And it was just the
Speaker 5: idea of like, gosh, two of us having volatile incomes
Speaker 5: where we don't know what the consistency is going to
Speaker 5: be month after month and having the security of that
Speaker 5: healthcare and that four oh one k It just felt
Speaker 5: like it.
Speaker 4: Was too risky.
Speaker 5: Now since doing it, I'm like, gosh, I pay practically
Speaker 5: the same and well, the insurance isn't quite as good.
Speaker 5: It's I am fine, and if something happens, we're fine.
Speaker 5: And I wish maybe that I hadn't been so fearful.
Speaker 5: And I think there's something to be said where when
Speaker 5: I only had myself to depend on, I felt maybe
Speaker 5: a little bit more freedom and that I just had
Speaker 5: to do it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just had to do it.
Speaker 1: That you could bet on yourself, right, that's right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But let's talk a little bit about that transition, because
Speaker 2: I think we probably have a reasonable number of listeners
Speaker 2: who are like, Okay, I have my side hustle. I'd
Speaker 2: like to try going out and doing it full time.
Speaker 2: But boy, that seems like a big leap, So was
Speaker 2: there anything sort of practical you did, I mean, or
Speaker 2: that you'd recommend having in place before you make that leap.
Speaker 4: I think it's going to be different for everybody. I'm
Speaker 4: very risk averse.
Speaker 5: So I had at least six months salary saved before
Speaker 5: I left, and so I think that number is going
Speaker 5: to be different for everybody.
Speaker 4: But I had a lot saved also because of the
Speaker 4: work that I do.
Speaker 5: I also worked really hard to network and have contracts
Speaker 5: in place, so it wasn't like I was leaving and
Speaker 5: I wasn't going to have any work, you know. I
Speaker 5: left in the spring going into summer in Q four
Speaker 5: is a lucrative time for influencers versus Q one and
Speaker 5: Q two is quieter. So I think I would have
Speaker 5: been more afraid to do it at the beginning of
Speaker 5: the year than.
Speaker 4: In the season that I did it in.
Speaker 5: And so I also just had a lot of encouragement
Speaker 5: and I had been thinking about it for a really
Speaker 5: long time, so by the time I did it, I
Speaker 5: was just very very ready to do it.
Speaker 4: Do I have regret that I didn't do it sooner?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Sometimes, But also I think that there's something about the
Speaker 5: fact that I did it after I got divorced and
Speaker 5: then could really lean on work when I was sad,
Speaker 5: and you know, I was like working a lot of
Speaker 5: extra hours in the beginning, and that was kind of
Speaker 5: filling me up in some ways that I think it
Speaker 5: was really special. So I think, though you do have
Speaker 5: to be smart about it. I mean, it was people
Speaker 5: looked at me and.
Speaker 4: Thought, oh, gosh, you're leaving Vanderbilt to work for yourself
Speaker 4: as an influencer, Like are you kidding me?
Speaker 5: But I had contracts like Nike and Target and Walmart,
Speaker 5: you know, like it was not like I was an
Speaker 5: influencer that was going to be just getting by. I
Speaker 5: had been working at it since two thousand and six,
Speaker 5: and so I was in a pretty good place when
Speaker 5: I left.
Speaker 4: Excellent Excellent.
Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break,
Speaker 2: and then we're going to be back talking about relationships.
Speaker 1: Apart from marriage and all that's been going on with Jessica.
Speaker 2: There. Well, I am back talking with Jessica Turner, who
Speaker 2: has a brand new book called I thought it would
Speaker 2: be better than this about the end of her marriage
Speaker 2: and about finding life on the other side as you
Speaker 2: rebuild everything. So one of the things you talk about
Speaker 2: at helping you get through these rough times was all
Speaker 2: your friendships. And now people are probably listening to this
Speaker 2: and be like, I have no time for friends. I
Speaker 2: also have a full time job, side hustle, three kids, whatever.
Speaker 2: You know, where were you making time to sort of
Speaker 2: nurture these friendships to the point where they were so
Speaker 2: there for you when you really needed them.
Speaker 5: So I really balk at the statement of I don't
Speaker 5: have time for xyz.
Speaker 4: I know you do as well.
Speaker 5: I think that we make time for what's important to us,
Speaker 5: and friendship has always been a priority for me. So yes,
Speaker 5: I was working a full time corporate job, writing best
Speaker 5: selling books, blogging, supporting my husband, a mom, and I
Speaker 5: still made time for friends. And it was just because
Speaker 5: I wanted friends. And I think we need friends and
Speaker 5: we need community, like we're not meant to be alone.
Speaker 5: And so some of those friendships were cultivated at my job.
Speaker 5: Some of them were cultivated on the side of the
Speaker 5: soccer field when my kids were playing sports. It was
Speaker 5: also I think, being intentional. When I was driving to
Speaker 5: in front of work, I was usually like calling and
Speaker 5: checking in with friends. I would make time on my
Speaker 5: lunch breaks to get together with friends that had more
Speaker 5: flexibility and could beet in that way. I mean, I
Speaker 5: think there's lots of small ways that you can invest
Speaker 5: in friendship that over time, putting those coins in the
Speaker 5: bank really add up. And I also think that when
Speaker 5: any of us are in crisis, we're going to be
Speaker 5: there for our people. And so when my friends found
Speaker 5: out what I was walking through, they dropped everything to
Speaker 5: be there for me in the same manner that I
Speaker 5: would do the.
Speaker 4: Same for them. Right.
Speaker 5: It's sort of like you don't have time to be
Speaker 5: in the hospital until you're in the hospital kind of thing.
Speaker 4: And so I think that's what it.
Speaker 5: Was like for me and my friends, that this was
Speaker 5: just a dire situation. And I'm thankful that I guess
Speaker 5: I had enough coins in the bank that they were
Speaker 5: there for me, and it really did make a huge difference,
Speaker 5: particularly because in my case, I didn't feel comfortable with
Speaker 5: telling my family initially with what was going on, and
Speaker 5: so I needed other people to help me through that
Speaker 5: really fragile time.
Speaker 1: Totally understandable. Well, let's also talk dating, because this.
Speaker 2: Is something that you I mean, getting married at age
Speaker 2: twenty two probably had not been a huge part of
Speaker 2: your life before then or just you know, as a teenager.
Speaker 1: So it's very different than dating as an adult.
Speaker 4: And so different with dating apps and the like that.
Speaker 2: Was not around for us right in the which I'm
Speaker 2: personally I feel kind of grateful for. But you know,
Speaker 2: it's also good to know that it's out there, if
Speaker 2: you know, if anyone needs to be back in the market.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, this is a whole new world. Like,
Speaker 1: how did you approach it?
Speaker 4: Slowly? Fuly? Okay, Yeah, So I definitely took time.
Speaker 5: I talk about in the book the importance of therapy
Speaker 5: and really taking care of myself first, and so I
Speaker 5: did that for a solid year before I started dating.
Speaker 5: And therapists generally are there just to like ask you
Speaker 5: questions and have you process things. They don't generally push
Speaker 5: you too much. And my therapist this was one of
Speaker 5: the things where she was like it's time, Like you
Speaker 5: enough processing, Jess, Like you need to do it. I
Speaker 5: was so nervous, and so I started on the dating
Speaker 5: apps and made some mistakes, met some cat you know,
Speaker 5: got matched with the catfish and those sorts of things.
Speaker 4: Thankfully didn't give anyone any money or send any illicit
Speaker 4: photos or some of the things that other women do.
Speaker 5: But I just started navigating those waters. And thankfully, because
Speaker 5: I had done enough work on myself, I knew what
Speaker 5: I wanted, what I didn't want, And then as I
Speaker 5: started to have relationships and those relationships ended, I learned
Speaker 5: more about myself and learned more about what I wanted
Speaker 5: and didn't want. There's I think a really profound story
Speaker 5: in the book where I'd been dating a man for
Speaker 5: a few months, it was already starting to feel serious.
Speaker 5: We were saying I love you, and he got very
Speaker 5: upset about something and started yelling and swearing at me,
Speaker 5: and we were on FaceTime, and I had never encountered
Speaker 5: him acting in this way, and I very calmly said,
Speaker 5: I remember like it happened yesterday. I said, I love
Speaker 5: myself more than I love you, and I will not
Speaker 5: be talked to you that way. And it was this
Speaker 5: line in the sand moment for me where I was like, Wow,
Speaker 5: I don't even know that Jessica in her marriage would
Speaker 5: have stood up for herself in that.
Speaker 4: Way if I needed to.
Speaker 5: I think I would have rather like been on eggshells
Speaker 5: or tried to make things right or felt like it
Speaker 5: was my fault and it just demonstrated to me so
Speaker 5: much growth in myself. And a couple of weeks later
Speaker 5: that relationship ended and he said to me, you know,
Speaker 5: I've thought a lot about what you said, and the
Speaker 5: truth is I need to work on loving myself and
Speaker 5: I need to work on myself before I should be
Speaker 5: in a relationship, which I.
Speaker 4: Think really demonstrated like this was a solid guy.
Speaker 5: He just wasn't as far enough along on the path
Speaker 5: as what I needed in a partner. But those types
Speaker 5: of moments have been really powerful, and I'm happy to
Speaker 5: share that I've been dating someone for a year now
Speaker 5: and it's just been awesome. And my therapist said to
Speaker 5: me when we first met, you know, I think this
Speaker 5: is the first time I've seen you as your whole self,
Speaker 5: dating someone who's totally confident in their whole self, so
Speaker 5: that there wasn't this like codependency of like feeding off
Speaker 5: of like I need this from you and you need
Speaker 5: this from me to feel like we're complete. Like I
Speaker 5: think that whole Hollywood notion of like you complete me
Speaker 5: is not a good thing.
Speaker 4: To have in a relationship.
Speaker 5: Be needing in a relationship, and so dating in my
Speaker 5: forties has certainly been different than when I experienced in
Speaker 5: my late teens and very early twenties, but it's been
Speaker 5: also really, really beautiful, and I'm thankful that my story
Speaker 5: brought me to where I am today and.
Speaker 4: To the relationships that I have yet.
Speaker 1: That's wonderful having been successful.
Speaker 2: I'm very curious if you have any tips, I mean,
Speaker 2: any practical strategies as someone is testing the waters here.
Speaker 5: So my favorite tip for people, and this is the
Speaker 5: quickest way to discern if someone is a catfish, or
Speaker 5: to discern if someone is really interested, is after you've
Speaker 5: been chatting in the app for a little bit, ask
Speaker 5: them to send you a photo where you have them
Speaker 5: take a piece of paper and write down the date
Speaker 5: on it and they hold that up in the picture.
Speaker 5: Because that lets you know that they are who they
Speaker 5: are in their pictures and that they are willing to
Speaker 5: do something that maybe feels a little weird and a
Speaker 5: little uncomfortable because they want to get to know you.
Speaker 4: And that worked for me one hundred percent of the time.
Speaker 5: The solid guys who I was going to go on
Speaker 5: a date with who wanted to get to know me
Speaker 5: were like, this is cheesy, but yes, I'll do it
Speaker 5: kind of thing, and the ones who were catfish, they
Speaker 5: wouldn't do it, and so I think that's a great
Speaker 5: easy way to protect yourself. It's funny that guy I'm
Speaker 5: dating now he did that, but he wrote on the
Speaker 5: piece of paper, I can't believe I'm doing this because
Speaker 5: it just showed me a sense of humor right off
Speaker 5: the bat, and you know, it was kind of late
Speaker 5: at night, and he like did it like right then,
Speaker 5: and we still laugh about that.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think that's a really good tip for people.
Speaker 1: That's someone told me that I used a lot, so wonderful, wonderful. Well, Jessica,
Speaker 1: what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 4: I think I'm.
Speaker 5: Looking forward to people reading. I thought it would be
Speaker 5: better than this, As you know, a book takes years
Speaker 5: to write and get out into the world, and I'm
Speaker 5: so happy to be having these conversations and be interacting
Speaker 5: with women as they're reading the book and already hearing
Speaker 5: stories about how people are doing some of the exercises
Speaker 5: in the bookcause the book is definitely one part memoir
Speaker 5: in one part self help where you can really grab
Speaker 5: onto tactics, and so I'm just excited about it being
Speaker 5: in the world and people reading it and sharing it.
Speaker 5: I think it's a great book to give to somebody
Speaker 5: who's going through a hard time.
Speaker 4: So that has me.
Speaker 1: Really energized right now. Yeah awesome.
Speaker 2: We always you've had to do this before, as you've
Speaker 2: been on the show before.
Speaker 1: We end with a love of the week.
Speaker 2: So is there something in particular that is making your
Speaker 2: life really good right now?
Speaker 5: Well this is kind of shallow, but I just finished
Speaker 5: the show Paradise on Hulu.
Speaker 4: Have you watched it?
Speaker 1: I have not.
Speaker 4: I have not.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh. It is so fantastic. It's definitely a
Speaker 5: show you're gonna.
Speaker 4: Binge if you choose to watch it.
Speaker 5: Really fun and creative and different and action packed. And
Speaker 5: I would say that is definitely my love of the week.
Speaker 5: Really great show.
Speaker 1: Yeah awesome.
Speaker 2: I don't have a show, but this is airing in
Speaker 2: early April, and we're recording this a little bit before.
Speaker 2: But I am already looking forward to the cherry trees
Speaker 2: because that's about when they bloom in my yard. Every year.
Speaker 2: We have different ones of the Yoshino cherries, which are
Speaker 2: the white ones, these weeping cherries that are long branches
Speaker 2: with pink flowers, and then the quons and cherries bloom
Speaker 2: a little later, but it's like this progression white and pink,
Speaker 2: and it's so exciting because like everything has been gray
Speaker 2: and brown and cold and dead for so long.
Speaker 1: Right in a couple of weeks, it's all beautiful.
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, that's true.
Speaker 5: Well, if I think to April, what Jessica would probably
Speaker 5: answer is p and e season, which is sort of
Speaker 5: the same things I love pa Andy flowers and I
Speaker 5: talk about in the book how pe and ees need
Speaker 5: a cold, hard winter to boom really beautiful. And how
Speaker 5: true is that in our own stories as well, that
Speaker 5: sometimes we need something hard for beauty to bloom. So yes,
Speaker 5: I'm you're ready for cherries and blossoms, and I'm ready
Speaker 5: for those peonies to bloom.
Speaker 2: And do I recall that your boyfriend there was something
Speaker 2: involving flowers with him when you guys were early on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this is such a great story.
Speaker 5: So I had we met in April, and I mentioned
Speaker 5: to him that I love paeonies because April is like
Speaker 5: when peanies start to bloom late April early May. And
Speaker 5: he said, oh, I have peonies in my yard. I'll
Speaker 5: to show them to you. Sometime, you know, just kind
Speaker 5: of nonchalant.
Speaker 4: Well, we met for lunch for our first date, and
Speaker 4: he said, walk with me to my car. And I
Speaker 4: walked to his car.
Speaker 5: And he had a huge bunch of p andis that
Speaker 5: he had cut from his yard, that he had remembered
Speaker 5: that thing and then cut them and brought them to me.
Speaker 5: And I just felt so seen and so grateful. I
Speaker 5: like got in my car and just wept. And I
Speaker 5: talk about p and ees all spring, as I shared,
Speaker 5: you know, I don't normally talk about dating. Definitely not
Speaker 5: a first date. But the guy brought me p andies.
Speaker 4: Can you believe it? To my audience, and somebody said
Speaker 4: to me, maybe you should press one of.
Speaker 1: Those just in case, just in case.
Speaker 5: And here we are a year later, and I have
Speaker 5: that dried p andy in a frame on my nightstand,
Speaker 5: and yeah, it's really really special.
Speaker 2: That is awesome, awesome, Well, Jessica, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for joining us. It's been a great conversation. Where can
Speaker 2: people find you?
Speaker 5: You can find me on Instagram Jessica en Turner. That
Speaker 5: ends for Nicole Jessica and Turner. My website is the
Speaker 5: same Jessica Andturner dot com. And you can buy I
Speaker 5: thought it would be better than this. Wherever books are sold,
Speaker 5: whether you want to go to a big box like
Speaker 5: Amazon or Target, or your local independent bookstore, you can
Speaker 5: find it there. And it's also available on all the
Speaker 5: audiobook platforms as well. And I read it and it's
Speaker 5: got a special bonus at the end. That's really fun.
Speaker 5: We're a conversation with one of my girlfriends.
Speaker 1: That's some awesome. We'd love to hear that. All right, Well, Jessica,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 4: Us, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Well we are back.
Speaker 2: That was a great discussion with Jessica Turner, author of
Speaker 2: the brand new book.
Speaker 1: I thought it would be better than this. So, Sarah,
Speaker 1: question for this week.
Speaker 2: My kids want to spend money on things that I
Speaker 2: don't feel are a good use of money. So the
Speaker 2: list for various ages that came up with this is
Speaker 2: in app purchases designer handbags, even if they are spending
Speaker 2: their own money and such. Should I be saying something
Speaker 2: about this? Should I be discouraging them from it?
Speaker 4: What do you think? Sarah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we've definitely started to see some of
Speaker 3: this as the kids want all kinds of different things
Speaker 3: for us what has worked just doing the allowance thing.
Speaker 3: So they do have a certain amount of money to spend.
Speaker 3: They're able to use the green Light app. We're not
Speaker 3: sponsored by them or anything, but they're able to look
Speaker 3: to see how much money they have, so it's easy
Speaker 3: to track, and they know that if they ask for
Speaker 3: something like another in app purchase after they already spent
Speaker 3: all their money on innup purchases, that it's going to
Speaker 3: be like, no, you're gonna have to wait until you
Speaker 3: get your next allowance and then beyond that unless it
Speaker 3: is something harmful. I really try not to judge again
Speaker 3: separating the screen time issue from the screen to spending, Like,
Speaker 3: we're not having that conversation right now, we're just focusing
Speaker 3: on the purchases.
Speaker 4: But I think back to.
Speaker 3: The nineties and how I believe I blew all of
Speaker 3: my cit counselor and training tip money on a pair
Speaker 3: of Doc Martins that were one hundred and three dollars exactly.
Speaker 3: We know this number, yeah, because my parents thought it
Speaker 3: was a terrible, outrageous numb and I treasured those shoes
Speaker 3: for many, many years, and hey, I still remember them now.
Speaker 1: I don't have them now. They did eventually kind of
Speaker 1: wear out.
Speaker 3: But you know what, like zero sadness about that purchase,
Speaker 3: despite the fact that my parents were probably like not
Speaker 3: what I think.
Speaker 1: It should be used for.
Speaker 3: So I will support my kids on their own spending adventures,
Speaker 3: and you know who am I to judge if it's theirs.
Speaker 3: If this is more of like a gift situation, then
Speaker 3: I try to be careful about, like, well, what would
Speaker 3: we spend on the gift and get them what they
Speaker 3: want within that reasonable amount. I'm not going to buy
Speaker 3: a two thousand dollars handbag for a kid's twelfth birthday
Speaker 3: if normally I would not spend anywhere near that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think you can.
Speaker 2: Also there are certain things, obviously, if there's value, like
Speaker 2: if a child wants to buy a shirt that has
Speaker 2: something offensive on it, like I think you can speak
Speaker 2: up about this, or clothing that will not pass Muster
Speaker 2: for the school dress code so they will not be
Speaker 2: able to wear it there, or something like that. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think there are certain things that you can steer
Speaker 2: them away for reasons of that. However, within the realm
Speaker 2: of sort of normal purchases that are not offensive to
Speaker 2: somebody or something I would probably let the kid do
Speaker 2: what they want to do. And sometimes kids learn a
Speaker 2: lesson of like, oh, yeah, well, I spent four ninety
Speaker 2: nine on that in app purchase and it only lasted
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes, and now I don't have that money anymore
Speaker 2: and I can't do something else with it. And sometimes
Speaker 2: kids are like, oh, that was fun, and I'm going
Speaker 2: to spend more money on it too. But people are different,
Speaker 2: Like some people get a lot of joy from spending
Speaker 2: small bits of money on silly things.
Speaker 1: Some of us probably a little bit less so.
Speaker 2: But then I tell myself, wait a minute, my kids
Speaker 2: spent ten dollars of their money on an in app purchase.
Speaker 2: I mean I probably bought a margarita somewhere. It was
Speaker 2: probably more than ten dollars Starbucks.
Speaker 1: Starbucks. Oh, I didn't need all that Starbucks.
Speaker 2: I didn't all sorts of things that I have probably
Speaker 2: spent money on that I didn't really need and would
Speaker 2: not have appreciated someone judging me for. So I try
Speaker 2: to keep the judgment out of things like that.
Speaker 4: Totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I guess you could have a
Speaker 2: conversation about it, but sort of in a non accusatory way.
Speaker 2: I mean, you could be sort of like, oh, what
Speaker 2: do you think so cool about that? Tell me about it, right,
Speaker 2: like why do you like this? Maybe have the kids
Speaker 2: show you like what the in app purchase is going
Speaker 2: to do, and get excited about it with them. I mean,
Speaker 2: you're not dignifying it in any way, but you're at least
Speaker 2: having a mindful conversation about spending.
Speaker 3: You could maybe even if there you could be like, well,
Speaker 3: how long did you get to play with that new feature?
Speaker 3: And if they're like two hours, you could be like, oh,
Speaker 3: so you spent this much per hour and then see
Speaker 3: you know, that might make an impression on them, or
Speaker 3: they might be like, that was an amazing deal.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so true.
Speaker 2: People are so different, so it goes, oh, well, well,
Speaker 2: this has been best of both worlds. Interviewing Jessica Turner,
Speaker 2: author of the brand new book. I thought it would
Speaker 2: be better than this. We will be back next week
Speaker 2: with more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
Speaker 3: and you.
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life
Speaker 2: work together.