1 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 3: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 3: love our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long. 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: Term career goals. 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. This is Laura. 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: This episode is airing in early April of twenty twenty five. 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: I am sitting here in Sarah's closet for yet another episode. 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: This is exciting how many we've managed to get done here, Sarah. Yes, 16 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: this will be our last and a train of four 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 2: live episodes. Although the interview, the interview is not no No, 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: So this week we're excited to welcome Jessica Turner to 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: the show. Jessica Turner is a previous guest on Best 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 2: of Both Worlds. She joined us several years ago when 21 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: she was talking about making time for passions alongside being 22 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: a full time working mom. 23 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: She had a lot of great advice with that. 24 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: But she is now the author of a new book 25 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: that is called I Thought It would be Better than This, 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: which is the story of her long marriage coming apart 27 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 2: a couple of years ago in the divorce that was 28 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 2: a result of her husband coming out as gay, which 29 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: she was supportive of him and his new identity, but 30 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: also meant the end of the relationship she thought they 31 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: had to gather and how they have navigated that new 32 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: situation her life after this experience. A lot of fascinating 33 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: stuff in her story, and it's not just about her story. 34 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: Though, too. 35 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: It's also a self help book about how all of 36 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 2: us can be more resilient when life gives you something 37 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: that's a little bit disappointing, hence the title I Thought 38 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: it would be better than This. So, Sarah, we're not 39 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: going to talk about recent medical issues. It's a little 40 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: bit soon for that, but that aside. Are there things 41 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: you've had in life that you thought would be better 42 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: than this? 43 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 4: Yeah? 44 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 3: One thing that comes to mind is that I had 45 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 3: this vision of my kids all going to the same 46 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 3: school all the way through Anna all finishing eighth grade. 47 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 3: This like cute little vision of just like dropping them 48 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 3: off and we're so comfortable, and you know. 49 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: It didn't work out. 50 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 3: You know, the alternative has been a little more annoying. 51 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: But at the same time, it was a pivot that 52 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 3: we had to make, and I definitely think it was 53 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 3: for the best. So that was a good, good example 54 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: of something where I kind of had like a path 55 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 3: in my head, this little ideal that turned out. 56 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 1: Just to not not exists. Yeah, I thought it was. 57 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and this is something so silly, but 58 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: I think all of us have experienced it that the 59 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: vacations with your family, and particularly with small children. In theory, 60 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: a trip to I don't know, some Caribbean island sounds 61 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: luxurious and exotic and RESTful and relaxing, and then you're like, 62 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: but wait, I still have my own small children with 63 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: me for this trip to this exotic, luxurious place. And 64 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: so I think every time we take a vacation with family, 65 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: I have learned to keep my expectations limited to you know, 66 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: we are going to have some great moments. Not every 67 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: moment is going to be awesome, because if you expect 68 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: every moment to be awesome, and then you're like going 69 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: to be repeating the title here. 70 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: I thought it would be better than this, and. 71 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: That can be be disappointing, But I think it's so 72 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: amazing what Jessica has her business, She's produced over the 73 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: past few years. She's a very well known influencer now 74 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: and how she has come through this situation with so 75 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: much resilience is very inspiring. So I'm looking forward to 76 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: the interview with Jessica. So Sarah and I are delighted 77 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: to welcome Jessica Turner to this show. So, Jessica, thank 78 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: you for joining us. 79 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. 80 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: And in fact, you are glad to be back, because 81 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: it turns out we had you on the show in 82 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen when you were talking about a different book, 83 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: The Fun The Fringe Hours. 84 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: We talked a lot about side hustles and all that. 85 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 2: But your life has changed a lot since twenty eighteen, 86 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: So why didn't you tell us a little bit about that? 87 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 5: It sure has well. In twenty nineteen, my husband of 88 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 5: sixteen years came out to me and that completely rocked 89 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 5: my world. As one can imagine, we had three kids, 90 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 5: I had no idea. We kind of wrestled with the 91 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 5: idea of a mixed orientation for marriage for a while, 92 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 5: and then in twenty twenty the world shut down, and 93 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 5: so we remained married for a period of time and 94 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 5: decided that even though we were in the midst of 95 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 5: a pandemic, the best, most loving thing to do ourselves 96 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 5: and our family was to divorce, and so we divorced 97 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 5: in June of twenty twenty. 98 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 4: And it was at that time where I just felt 99 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 4: like my entire life kind of shattered. All of the. 100 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 5: Dreams that I had for what life would look like. 101 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 5: The companion that I thought I would grow old with, 102 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 5: like all of that was gone and was different, and 103 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 5: I had to really lean into finding myself. I met 104 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 5: my husband when I was twenty we were married when 105 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 5: I was twenty two, and so I didn't know adulthood 106 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 5: apart from being married to him, and so that was 107 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 5: a journey that I went on. 108 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 4: And my new book is titled I Thought it would 109 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 4: be Better. 110 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 5: Than This, And it is for anyone who's facing disappointment, 111 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 5: greed in the midst of it. 112 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 4: It isn't a divorce book. It really is a book 113 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 4: for no matter what your disappointment is. 114 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 5: If you thought your marriage would be better than this, 115 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 5: you thought your career would be better than this, You 116 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 5: thought your finances would be better than this, their parenting, 117 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 5: whatever this is is instead of putting it period on this, 118 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 5: putting a COMMA on it, and saying, Okay, I'm going 119 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 5: to I still have agency over my story, And how 120 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 5: can I look at this disappointment as an opportunity to 121 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 5: make different choices than I thought I was going to 122 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 5: have to make, but still choices that I'm proud of 123 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 5: in that building a life that I love. 124 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. 125 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 126 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: I mean everyone has some area of their life that 127 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: they thought would be better than it turns out to 128 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: be whatever it happens to be. Yeah. Well, I thought 129 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 2: it was so interesting. We've talked a little bit on 130 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: social media. You guys considered not divorcing. I mean, you 131 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 2: just mentioned that as you were telling your story. I mean, 132 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: I'm very curious what the thought process was there. You said, Okay, 133 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: my husband is gay. That is obviously not what I 134 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: thought was happening here. Really, what was involved in that 135 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: decision and deciding that was as an imperfect choice as 136 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: it was, that that was the best choice. 137 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. So he first told me that he was by 138 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 4: in the. 139 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 5: Spring of twenty nineteen, and then in the fall was 140 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 5: when he came out to me and said I'm gay. 141 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 5: And the book actually opens with that story. It's a 142 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 5: very vulnerable piece that honestly I can't read it and not. 143 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 4: Cry remembering that day. 144 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 5: Then we, you know, we still loved each other, and 145 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 5: we loved our kids, and we loved our family. And 146 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 5: my ex husband is a writer as well, and so 147 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 5: our work was kind of enmeshed in some ways, and 148 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 5: it felt hard to stay married, but it also felt 149 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 5: hard to divorce. And I talk about, as you just 150 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 5: said in the book, the idea of imperfect choices, and 151 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 5: I think that's so much of what life is, where 152 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 5: we have two imperfect choices, and so we just have 153 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 5: to decide what is the best one. And on some 154 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 5: days it felt like the best, imperfect choice was to 155 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 5: stay married, and on other days it felt like the 156 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 5: best and perfect choice was to get divorced. And ultimately, 157 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 5: as we both grappled with it, both together and independently, 158 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 5: we knew that the best choice was for us to 159 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 5: get divorced. That the genie was out of the bottle, 160 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 5: so to speak, and you can't unknow what you now know, 161 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 5: and that was the best choice, even though it was 162 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 5: extremely difficult to make that decision. 163 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've certainly heard from people who've gone 164 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: through divorces that it's not just the loss of your marriage, right, 165 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: which obviously is a huge thing, But then there's a 166 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 2: million little things, right like what I'm doing for Thanksgiving 167 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: next year, like in some world that probably involved in 168 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: laws or like you know, some distant cousin of your 169 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: exes or whatever that you would have been seeing, and 170 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: then that becomes less of a thing, like those smaller 171 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 2: things that along the way. 172 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I. 173 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 5: Think that's true for any sort of grief, that there's 174 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 5: the big, capital g grief that happens, but then we 175 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 5: also grieve a lot of small things. I said, for me, 176 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 5: I kind of envisioned it like a battlefield, and I 177 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 5: was grieving all of these losses, all of these dreams 178 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 5: that and unmet expectations that were not going to come 179 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 5: to fruition. But that also makes way for new dreams 180 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 5: and new possibilities. And I'm thankful that Matthew and I 181 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 5: have a great relationship. We co parent really well, we 182 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 5: live in the same neighborhood, we see our kids every day, 183 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 5: and so I'm thankful that we were able to get 184 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 5: to a place where even though parenting and our family 185 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 5: looks different than we imagined, it's still family and still 186 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 5: something that we can do together. 187 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're definitely going to talk about that, about navigating 188 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: a co parenting relationship. But what are the things I've 189 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: found so fascinating your book? You mentioned you planned a 190 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 2: funeral for your marriage and then canceled it. 191 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, you don't often get to cancel a funeral, 192 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 5: but I did. 193 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 4: In fact, my therapist said, you. 194 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 5: Know what if you wrote a eulogy for your marriage 195 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 5: and you kind of processed the idea of all of 196 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 5: these things that you're mourning but also celebrating all of 197 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 5: the things that happened in your marriage. 198 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 4: You know, I think that it is narrow minded. 199 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 5: To consider a marriage that ends in divorce as being 200 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 5: a failure. And I think that I failed with something 201 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 5: that I wrestled with because my marriage didn't remain intact. 202 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 5: And so that exercise of planning a funeral, writing a 203 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 5: eulogy for this disappointment in my life was a way 204 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 5: for me to kind of turn that thinking on its 205 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 5: head and really celebrate all of the good things in 206 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 5: the beauty that came from. 207 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: It, Yeah, because it's definitely a complex thing. 208 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, had he acknowledged at age twenty five 209 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 2: his orientation, you wouldn't have had this marriage that produced 210 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: three amazing. 211 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 4: Children, that's right. 212 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so these are the things, the complex choices 213 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: that happen here. 214 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 4: That's right. 215 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 5: And there's good and bad things right from that, you know. 216 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 5: And so it is one of those situations where there's 217 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 5: both good and bad, and I think that is really 218 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 5: what life is. I think it's interesting that we learn, 219 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 5: you know, chemistry, equations and physics and weird math stuff 220 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 5: that we never use in life, but we don't know 221 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 5: learn how to navigate disappointment and grief, which is something 222 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 5: that is prevalent in everyone's story at. 223 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: Some point, pretty much universal. 224 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and 225 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: then we will be back with more from Jessica Turner. Well, 226 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: I am back with Jessica Turner, who is the author 227 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 2: of the brand new book. I thought it would be 228 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: better than this about her experience navigating divorce, the aftermath 229 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 2: of that, and then figuring out how you can create 230 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: a new life after some sort of disappointment. I want 231 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: to talk about your co parenting because I mean, when 232 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: I have seen some of the things you guys do together, 233 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 2: I mean it sounds like everything is hunky dory, but 234 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: I am imagining it took some work to get to 235 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: that place. 236 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: Is that true? 237 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 5: Yes, and certainly not everything is hunky dory every day. 238 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 4: So while we have made it. 239 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 5: A priority to put our kids first, to try to 240 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 5: have some major moments together, you know, like we always 241 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 5: do Christmas together, We try to travel as a unit 242 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 5: of five once or twice a year together. It definitely 243 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 5: takes work. 244 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 4: And I went. 245 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 5: To Portugal with Matthew and the kids in March and 246 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 5: scheduled a therapy appointment for when I got home. 247 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 4: Because I knew that I would need it. 248 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 5: So, you know, I think that it is prioritizing our 249 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 5: kids and making things work, and also, you know, continuing 250 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 5: to invest in a friendship. You know, though our relationship 251 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 5: is different, we're still really good friends and we ultimately 252 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 5: want what's best for our kids. And one of the 253 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 5: things that I've consistently heard on social media. 254 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 4: I'm on Instagram. 255 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 5: My name's Jessica and Turner there and people message me 256 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 5: all the time saying I wish my parents had done this. 257 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 5: I come from a divorce family, and I wish that 258 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 5: my parents could have tolerated being in the same room, 259 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 5: and so that was just not going to be a 260 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 5: way that we wanted our kids' lives to be. 261 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: But isn't that hard. 262 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I imagine that even if you feel different 263 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: now several years after the fact, in the first year 264 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: or two afterwards, that had to have been more challenging. 265 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 4: I don't think so. 266 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 5: I mean, I think that there was certainly pain from 267 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 5: the divorce, but there was also a lot of tenderness 268 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 5: and love. You know, maybe that is partly because of 269 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 5: the way my marriage ended with Matthew coming out, and 270 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 5: so I certainly had tenderness for him, and I saw 271 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 5: how it was good for my kids, and you know, 272 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 5: certainly we would put different boundaries in place of space 273 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 5: that we needed and that sort of thing. But I 274 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 5: wouldn't ever say, gosh, it was really hard to do 275 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 5: Christmas with Matthew or anything like that. I think that 276 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 5: that is a notion that people often expect, but I 277 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 5: think that probably comes with relationships that end in a 278 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 5: lot of volatility, which is not the way our relationship ended. 279 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, that probably does make it a little 280 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: bit more straightforward, and you've also logistically arranged it so 281 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: it is easy for you guys to coparent. 282 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: Write you said he lives in the same neighborhood. 283 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 5: Mm hmm, yeah, and that is a grace. I don't 284 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 5: know that, but it will always be that way, but 285 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 5: at least for this first part of our post divorce life. Yeah, 286 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 5: we have been fortunate that he lives just on the street, 287 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 5: which has made it really convenient for the kids to 288 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 5: have two houses in the same neighborhood and for us 289 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 5: to navigate co parenting with a little bit of ease. 290 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: And do you wind up pretty much splitting at fifty 291 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: to fifty or is there some other sort of arrangement. 292 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 5: No, our arrangement is a sixty forty split, So he 293 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 5: has the kids Sunday to Wednesday morning and then I 294 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 5: have them Wednesday to Sunday. Ex But we're really good 295 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 5: about like being flexible if someone has a work event 296 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 5: or you know, like I have basically every weekend with 297 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 5: the way we have it split, So if I am 298 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 5: going to go away for the weekend or something like that, 299 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 5: Matthew's always willing to be flexible on that, which I'm grateful. 300 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: For Yeah, well, I laughed in the part of your 301 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: book where you mentioned calling him over to plunge your toilet. 302 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: Yes, he's still on husband duty occasionally. 303 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely certainly. Now that I have a sixteen year old, 304 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 5: I have someone else in the house who. 305 00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: Can help with some of those. 306 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 5: But yeah, I I didn't know how to plunge a 307 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 5: toilet and was definitely one of our sons, So Matthew 308 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 5: came on over and helped. 309 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 4: Me with that. 310 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: So absolutely. 311 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 4: Well. 312 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: Part of it is you said you had to learn 313 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: to navigate adult life on your own afterwards, because you 314 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: guys married when you said you were twenty two. 315 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 4: That's right. 316 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you had probably never really lived alone as 317 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: an adult. 318 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 4: That's right. Yeah. 319 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 5: I never had, literally, except for the couple months after 320 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 5: I graduated college before I got married. Was the only 321 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 5: time that I ever lived alone. So there was a 322 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 5: lot that I just never had to do, and so 323 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 5: I had to learn it myself or I had to 324 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 5: get help or hire people. 325 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 4: And I talk about in I thought. 326 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 5: It would be better than this, the importance of bringing 327 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 5: in experts when you don't know something, and the experts 328 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 5: can be friends that you know that are in fields 329 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 5: that you are interested in or that you need support in, 330 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 5: or it could be hiring people, it could be going 331 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 5: to the library. But sometimes we just don't know what 332 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 5: we don't know, and we have to be open to 333 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 5: learning or getting help. 334 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, especially on something like finances, right, that 335 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: was I think an area that you felt particularly was 336 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: not something you'd learned about. 337 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 5: It was something that certainly I knew how to manage 338 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 5: my own personal finances, but in terms of managing my 339 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 5: businesses finances, that was definitely something that I needed some 340 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 5: support in and that I was really grateful that I 341 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 5: found a financial planner who could help me navigate that 342 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 5: and be also a sounding. 343 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 4: Board for me. 344 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 5: Something that I didn't realize until I was divorced is 345 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 5: just how lonely it is to make one hundred percent 346 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 5: of decisions by yourself to not have somebody to be 347 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 5: a sounding board. And so for me having experts like 348 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 5: a financial planner, like some other people that I've hired 349 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 5: on my team, that they have been there to help me. 350 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: Sort of excellent. Excellent. 351 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: Well, let's talk a little bit about that business, because 352 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 2: when you were on here in twenty eighteen, we were 353 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: talking about your side hustle. You you know, were the 354 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: mom creative doing various cool crafts and like all sorts 355 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: of lifestyle content and things like that. But during this 356 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: whole time, you'd also had a pretty traditional job as well. 357 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 4: Correct, that's right, yep. 358 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 5: At that time, I worked for a large healthcare system 359 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 5: doing corporate marketing and social media, and then was doing 360 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 5: blogging and book writing on the side. I literally wrote 361 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 5: my first two books while having a job in corporate America. 362 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 5: And when the dream of my marriage died, I was like, 363 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 5: I am not letting another dream die, and so worked 364 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 5: to save to a place where I felt comfortable with 365 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 5: leaving that corporate job. And now, gosh, it's been over 366 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 5: three years maybe four that I've been a full time influencer, 367 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 5: which has been just amazing and really a dream come true. 368 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm curious why you hadn't necessarily done that before. 369 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 2: I think you mentioned in the book that you know, 370 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: you guys had become comfortable in a lot of sort 371 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 2: of roles that you were both playing in your marriage, 372 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 2: and yours was the one where you went and brought 373 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 2: in the health insurance. 374 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: Correct. 375 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right, And I think health insurance is one 376 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 5: of those things that feels scary in America. And you know, 377 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 5: I was working for a healthcare system and so I 378 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 5: had very good health insurance. And it was just the 379 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 5: idea of like, gosh, two of us having volatile incomes 380 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 5: where we don't know what the consistency is going to 381 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 5: be month after month and having the security of that 382 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 5: healthcare and that four oh one k It just felt 383 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 5: like it. 384 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 4: Was too risky. 385 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 5: Now since doing it, I'm like, gosh, I pay practically 386 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 5: the same and well, the insurance isn't quite as good. 387 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 5: It's I am fine, and if something happens, we're fine. 388 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 5: And I wish maybe that I hadn't been so fearful. 389 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 5: And I think there's something to be said where when 390 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 5: I only had myself to depend on, I felt maybe 391 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 5: a little bit more freedom and that I just had 392 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 5: to do it. 393 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I just had to do it. 394 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: That you could bet on yourself, right, that's right. 395 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. 396 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 2: But let's talk a little bit about that transition, because 397 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: I think we probably have a reasonable number of listeners 398 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 2: who are like, Okay, I have my side hustle. I'd 399 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: like to try going out and doing it full time. 400 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 2: But boy, that seems like a big leap, So was 401 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 2: there anything sort of practical you did, I mean, or 402 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: that you'd recommend having in place before you make that leap. 403 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 4: I think it's going to be different for everybody. I'm 404 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 4: very risk averse. 405 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 5: So I had at least six months salary saved before 406 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 5: I left, and so I think that number is going 407 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 5: to be different for everybody. 408 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 4: But I had a lot saved also because of the 409 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 4: work that I do. 410 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 5: I also worked really hard to network and have contracts 411 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 5: in place, so it wasn't like I was leaving and 412 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 5: I wasn't going to have any work, you know. I 413 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 5: left in the spring going into summer in Q four 414 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 5: is a lucrative time for influencers versus Q one and 415 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 5: Q two is quieter. So I think I would have 416 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 5: been more afraid to do it at the beginning of 417 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 5: the year than. 418 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 4: In the season that I did it in. 419 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 5: And so I also just had a lot of encouragement 420 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 5: and I had been thinking about it for a really 421 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 5: long time, so by the time I did it, I 422 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 5: was just very very ready to do it. 423 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 4: Do I have regret that I didn't do it sooner? 424 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? 425 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 5: Sometimes, But also I think that there's something about the 426 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 5: fact that I did it after I got divorced and 427 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 5: then could really lean on work when I was sad, 428 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 5: and you know, I was like working a lot of 429 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 5: extra hours in the beginning, and that was kind of 430 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 5: filling me up in some ways that I think it 431 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 5: was really special. So I think, though you do have 432 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 5: to be smart about it. I mean, it was people 433 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 5: looked at me and. 434 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 4: Thought, oh, gosh, you're leaving Vanderbilt to work for yourself 435 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 4: as an influencer, Like are you kidding me? 436 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 5: But I had contracts like Nike and Target and Walmart, 437 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 5: you know, like it was not like I was an 438 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 5: influencer that was going to be just getting by. I 439 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 5: had been working at it since two thousand and six, 440 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 5: and so I was in a pretty good place when 441 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 5: I left. 442 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 4: Excellent Excellent. 443 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break, 444 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 2: and then we're going to be back talking about relationships. 445 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: Apart from marriage and all that's been going on with Jessica. 446 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 2: There. Well, I am back talking with Jessica Turner, who 447 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 2: has a brand new book called I thought it would 448 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 2: be better than this about the end of her marriage 449 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 2: and about finding life on the other side as you 450 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 2: rebuild everything. So one of the things you talk about 451 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 2: at helping you get through these rough times was all 452 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: your friendships. And now people are probably listening to this 453 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 2: and be like, I have no time for friends. I 454 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 2: also have a full time job, side hustle, three kids, whatever. 455 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 2: You know, where were you making time to sort of 456 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 2: nurture these friendships to the point where they were so 457 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: there for you when you really needed them. 458 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 5: So I really balk at the statement of I don't 459 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 5: have time for xyz. 460 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 4: I know you do as well. 461 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 5: I think that we make time for what's important to us, 462 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 5: and friendship has always been a priority for me. So yes, 463 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 5: I was working a full time corporate job, writing best 464 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 5: selling books, blogging, supporting my husband, a mom, and I 465 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 5: still made time for friends. And it was just because 466 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 5: I wanted friends. And I think we need friends and 467 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 5: we need community, like we're not meant to be alone. 468 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 5: And so some of those friendships were cultivated at my job. 469 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 5: Some of them were cultivated on the side of the 470 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 5: soccer field when my kids were playing sports. It was 471 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 5: also I think, being intentional. When I was driving to 472 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 5: in front of work, I was usually like calling and 473 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 5: checking in with friends. I would make time on my 474 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 5: lunch breaks to get together with friends that had more 475 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 5: flexibility and could beet in that way. I mean, I 476 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 5: think there's lots of small ways that you can invest 477 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 5: in friendship that over time, putting those coins in the 478 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 5: bank really add up. And I also think that when 479 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 5: any of us are in crisis, we're going to be 480 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 5: there for our people. And so when my friends found 481 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 5: out what I was walking through, they dropped everything to 482 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 5: be there for me in the same manner that I 483 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 5: would do the. 484 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 4: Same for them. Right. 485 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 5: It's sort of like you don't have time to be 486 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 5: in the hospital until you're in the hospital kind of thing. 487 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 4: And so I think that's what it. 488 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 5: Was like for me and my friends, that this was 489 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 5: just a dire situation. And I'm thankful that I guess 490 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 5: I had enough coins in the bank that they were 491 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 5: there for me, and it really did make a huge difference, 492 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 5: particularly because in my case, I didn't feel comfortable with 493 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 5: telling my family initially with what was going on, and 494 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 5: so I needed other people to help me through that 495 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 5: really fragile time. 496 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: Totally understandable. Well, let's also talk dating, because this. 497 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: Is something that you I mean, getting married at age 498 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: twenty two probably had not been a huge part of 499 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: your life before then or just you know, as a teenager. 500 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: So it's very different than dating as an adult. 501 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 4: And so different with dating apps and the like that. 502 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: Was not around for us right in the which I'm 503 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 2: personally I feel kind of grateful for. But you know, 504 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 2: it's also good to know that it's out there, if 505 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: you know, if anyone needs to be back in the market. 506 00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: So, I mean, this is a whole new world. Like, 507 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: how did you approach it? 508 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 4: Slowly? Fuly? Okay, Yeah, So I definitely took time. 509 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 5: I talk about in the book the importance of therapy 510 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 5: and really taking care of myself first, and so I 511 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 5: did that for a solid year before I started dating. 512 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 5: And therapists generally are there just to like ask you 513 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 5: questions and have you process things. They don't generally push 514 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 5: you too much. And my therapist this was one of 515 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 5: the things where she was like it's time, Like you 516 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 5: enough processing, Jess, Like you need to do it. I 517 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 5: was so nervous, and so I started on the dating 518 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 5: apps and made some mistakes, met some cat you know, 519 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 5: got matched with the catfish and those sorts of things. 520 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 4: Thankfully didn't give anyone any money or send any illicit 521 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 4: photos or some of the things that other women do. 522 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 5: But I just started navigating those waters. And thankfully, because 523 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 5: I had done enough work on myself, I knew what 524 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 5: I wanted, what I didn't want, And then as I 525 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 5: started to have relationships and those relationships ended, I learned 526 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 5: more about myself and learned more about what I wanted 527 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 5: and didn't want. There's I think a really profound story 528 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 5: in the book where I'd been dating a man for 529 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 5: a few months, it was already starting to feel serious. 530 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 5: We were saying I love you, and he got very 531 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 5: upset about something and started yelling and swearing at me, 532 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 5: and we were on FaceTime, and I had never encountered 533 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 5: him acting in this way, and I very calmly said, 534 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 5: I remember like it happened yesterday. I said, I love 535 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 5: myself more than I love you, and I will not 536 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 5: be talked to you that way. And it was this 537 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 5: line in the sand moment for me where I was like, Wow, 538 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 5: I don't even know that Jessica in her marriage would 539 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 5: have stood up for herself in that. 540 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 4: Way if I needed to. 541 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 5: I think I would have rather like been on eggshells 542 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 5: or tried to make things right or felt like it 543 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 5: was my fault and it just demonstrated to me so 544 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 5: much growth in myself. And a couple of weeks later 545 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 5: that relationship ended and he said to me, you know, 546 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 5: I've thought a lot about what you said, and the 547 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 5: truth is I need to work on loving myself and 548 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 5: I need to work on myself before I should be 549 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 5: in a relationship, which I. 550 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 4: Think really demonstrated like this was a solid guy. 551 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 5: He just wasn't as far enough along on the path 552 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 5: as what I needed in a partner. But those types 553 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 5: of moments have been really powerful, and I'm happy to 554 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 5: share that I've been dating someone for a year now 555 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 5: and it's just been awesome. And my therapist said to 556 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 5: me when we first met, you know, I think this 557 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 5: is the first time I've seen you as your whole self, 558 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 5: dating someone who's totally confident in their whole self, so 559 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 5: that there wasn't this like codependency of like feeding off 560 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 5: of like I need this from you and you need 561 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 5: this from me to feel like we're complete. Like I 562 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 5: think that whole Hollywood notion of like you complete me 563 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 5: is not a good thing. 564 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 4: To have in a relationship. 565 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 5: Be needing in a relationship, and so dating in my 566 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 5: forties has certainly been different than when I experienced in 567 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 5: my late teens and very early twenties, but it's been 568 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 5: also really, really beautiful, and I'm thankful that my story 569 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 5: brought me to where I am today and. 570 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 4: To the relationships that I have yet. 571 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: That's wonderful having been successful. 572 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 2: I'm very curious if you have any tips, I mean, 573 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 2: any practical strategies as someone is testing the waters here. 574 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 5: So my favorite tip for people, and this is the 575 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 5: quickest way to discern if someone is a catfish, or 576 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 5: to discern if someone is really interested, is after you've 577 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 5: been chatting in the app for a little bit, ask 578 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 5: them to send you a photo where you have them 579 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 5: take a piece of paper and write down the date 580 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 5: on it and they hold that up in the picture. 581 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 5: Because that lets you know that they are who they 582 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 5: are in their pictures and that they are willing to 583 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 5: do something that maybe feels a little weird and a 584 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 5: little uncomfortable because they want to get to know you. 585 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 4: And that worked for me one hundred percent of the time. 586 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 5: The solid guys who I was going to go on 587 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 5: a date with who wanted to get to know me 588 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 5: were like, this is cheesy, but yes, I'll do it 589 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,959 Speaker 5: kind of thing, and the ones who were catfish, they 590 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 5: wouldn't do it, and so I think that's a great 591 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 5: easy way to protect yourself. It's funny that guy I'm 592 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 5: dating now he did that, but he wrote on the 593 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 5: piece of paper, I can't believe I'm doing this because 594 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 5: it just showed me a sense of humor right off 595 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 5: the bat, and you know, it was kind of late 596 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 5: at night, and he like did it like right then, 597 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 5: and we still laugh about that. 598 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 4: So yeah, I think that's a really good tip for people. 599 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: That's someone told me that I used a lot, so wonderful, wonderful. Well, Jessica, 600 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: what are you looking forward to right now? 601 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 4: I think I'm. 602 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 5: Looking forward to people reading. I thought it would be 603 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 5: better than this, As you know, a book takes years 604 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 5: to write and get out into the world, and I'm 605 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 5: so happy to be having these conversations and be interacting 606 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 5: with women as they're reading the book and already hearing 607 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 5: stories about how people are doing some of the exercises 608 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 5: in the bookcause the book is definitely one part memoir 609 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 5: in one part self help where you can really grab 610 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 5: onto tactics, and so I'm just excited about it being 611 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 5: in the world and people reading it and sharing it. 612 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 5: I think it's a great book to give to somebody 613 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 5: who's going through a hard time. 614 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 4: So that has me. 615 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: Really energized right now. Yeah awesome. 616 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: We always you've had to do this before, as you've 617 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: been on the show before. 618 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: We end with a love of the week. 619 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 2: So is there something in particular that is making your 620 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 2: life really good right now? 621 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 5: Well this is kind of shallow, but I just finished 622 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 5: the show Paradise on Hulu. 623 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 4: Have you watched it? 624 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: I have not. 625 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 4: I have not. 626 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 5: Oh my gosh. It is so fantastic. It's definitely a 627 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 5: show you're gonna. 628 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 4: Binge if you choose to watch it. 629 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 5: Really fun and creative and different and action packed. And 630 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 5: I would say that is definitely my love of the week. 631 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 5: Really great show. 632 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: Yeah awesome. 633 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 2: I don't have a show, but this is airing in 634 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 2: early April, and we're recording this a little bit before. 635 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: But I am already looking forward to the cherry trees 636 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: because that's about when they bloom in my yard. Every year. 637 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,479 Speaker 2: We have different ones of the Yoshino cherries, which are 638 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 2: the white ones, these weeping cherries that are long branches 639 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 2: with pink flowers, and then the quons and cherries bloom 640 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 2: a little later, but it's like this progression white and pink, 641 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 2: and it's so exciting because like everything has been gray 642 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: and brown and cold and dead for so long. 643 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: Right in a couple of weeks, it's all beautiful. 644 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 4: Oh gosh, that's true. 645 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 5: Well, if I think to April, what Jessica would probably 646 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 5: answer is p and e season, which is sort of 647 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 5: the same things I love pa Andy flowers and I 648 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 5: talk about in the book how pe and ees need 649 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 5: a cold, hard winter to boom really beautiful. And how 650 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 5: true is that in our own stories as well, that 651 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 5: sometimes we need something hard for beauty to bloom. So yes, 652 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 5: I'm you're ready for cherries and blossoms, and I'm ready 653 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 5: for those peonies to bloom. 654 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: And do I recall that your boyfriend there was something 655 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,719 Speaker 2: involving flowers with him when you guys were early on. 656 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this is such a great story. 657 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 5: So I had we met in April, and I mentioned 658 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 5: to him that I love paeonies because April is like 659 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 5: when peanies start to bloom late April early May. And 660 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 5: he said, oh, I have peonies in my yard. I'll 661 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 5: to show them to you. Sometime, you know, just kind 662 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 5: of nonchalant. 663 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 4: Well, we met for lunch for our first date, and 664 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 4: he said, walk with me to my car. And I 665 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 4: walked to his car. 666 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 5: And he had a huge bunch of p andis that 667 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 5: he had cut from his yard, that he had remembered 668 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 5: that thing and then cut them and brought them to me. 669 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 5: And I just felt so seen and so grateful. I 670 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 5: like got in my car and just wept. And I 671 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 5: talk about p and ees all spring, as I shared, 672 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 5: you know, I don't normally talk about dating. Definitely not 673 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 5: a first date. But the guy brought me p andies. 674 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 4: Can you believe it? To my audience, and somebody said 675 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 4: to me, maybe you should press one of. 676 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: Those just in case, just in case. 677 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 5: And here we are a year later, and I have 678 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 5: that dried p andy in a frame on my nightstand, 679 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 5: and yeah, it's really really special. 680 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: That is awesome, awesome, Well, Jessica, thank you so much 681 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: for joining us. It's been a great conversation. Where can 682 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 2: people find you? 683 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 5: You can find me on Instagram Jessica en Turner. That 684 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 5: ends for Nicole Jessica and Turner. My website is the 685 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 5: same Jessica Andturner dot com. And you can buy I 686 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 5: thought it would be better than this. Wherever books are sold, 687 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 5: whether you want to go to a big box like 688 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 5: Amazon or Target, or your local independent bookstore, you can 689 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 5: find it there. And it's also available on all the 690 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 5: audiobook platforms as well. And I read it and it's 691 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 5: got a special bonus at the end. That's really fun. 692 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 5: We're a conversation with one of my girlfriends. 693 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: That's some awesome. We'd love to hear that. All right, Well, Jessica, 694 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining. 695 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 4: Us, Thanks for having me. 696 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: Well we are back. 697 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: That was a great discussion with Jessica Turner, author of 698 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 2: the brand new book. 699 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: I thought it would be better than this. So, Sarah, 700 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: question for this week. 701 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: My kids want to spend money on things that I 702 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: don't feel are a good use of money. So the 703 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: list for various ages that came up with this is 704 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: in app purchases designer handbags, even if they are spending 705 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: their own money and such. Should I be saying something 706 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: about this? Should I be discouraging them from it? 707 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 4: What do you think? Sarah? 708 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we've definitely started to see some of 709 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 3: this as the kids want all kinds of different things 710 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 3: for us what has worked just doing the allowance thing. 711 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 3: So they do have a certain amount of money to spend. 712 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 3: They're able to use the green Light app. We're not 713 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: sponsored by them or anything, but they're able to look 714 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 3: to see how much money they have, so it's easy 715 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 3: to track, and they know that if they ask for 716 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 3: something like another in app purchase after they already spent 717 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 3: all their money on innup purchases, that it's going to 718 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 3: be like, no, you're gonna have to wait until you 719 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 3: get your next allowance and then beyond that unless it 720 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 3: is something harmful. I really try not to judge again 721 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 3: separating the screen time issue from the screen to spending, Like, 722 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 3: we're not having that conversation right now, we're just focusing 723 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,719 Speaker 3: on the purchases. 724 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 4: But I think back to. 725 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 3: The nineties and how I believe I blew all of 726 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 3: my cit counselor and training tip money on a pair 727 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 3: of Doc Martins that were one hundred and three dollars exactly. 728 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 3: We know this number, yeah, because my parents thought it 729 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 3: was a terrible, outrageous numb and I treasured those shoes 730 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 3: for many, many years, and hey, I still remember them now. 731 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: I don't have them now. They did eventually kind of 732 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: wear out. 733 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 3: But you know what, like zero sadness about that purchase, 734 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 3: despite the fact that my parents were probably like not 735 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 3: what I think. 736 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: It should be used for. 737 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,879 Speaker 3: So I will support my kids on their own spending adventures, 738 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 3: and you know who am I to judge if it's theirs. 739 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 3: If this is more of like a gift situation, then 740 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 3: I try to be careful about, like, well, what would 741 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 3: we spend on the gift and get them what they 742 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 3: want within that reasonable amount. I'm not going to buy 743 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 3: a two thousand dollars handbag for a kid's twelfth birthday 744 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 3: if normally I would not spend anywhere near that. 745 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think you can. 746 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: Also there are certain things, obviously, if there's value, like 747 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 2: if a child wants to buy a shirt that has 748 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 2: something offensive on it, like I think you can speak 749 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 2: up about this, or clothing that will not pass Muster 750 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 2: for the school dress code so they will not be 751 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 2: able to wear it there, or something like that. I mean, 752 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 2: I think there are certain things that you can steer 753 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 2: them away for reasons of that. However, within the realm 754 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: of sort of normal purchases that are not offensive to 755 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 2: somebody or something I would probably let the kid do 756 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 2: what they want to do. And sometimes kids learn a 757 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 2: lesson of like, oh, yeah, well, I spent four ninety 758 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: nine on that in app purchase and it only lasted 759 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: fifteen minutes, and now I don't have that money anymore 760 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 2: and I can't do something else with it. And sometimes 761 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 2: kids are like, oh, that was fun, and I'm going 762 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 2: to spend more money on it too. But people are different, 763 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: Like some people get a lot of joy from spending 764 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 2: small bits of money on silly things. 765 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: Some of us probably a little bit less so. 766 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 2: But then I tell myself, wait a minute, my kids 767 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 2: spent ten dollars of their money on an in app purchase. 768 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 2: I mean I probably bought a margarita somewhere. It was 769 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 2: probably more than ten dollars Starbucks. 770 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: Starbucks. Oh, I didn't need all that Starbucks. 771 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 2: I didn't all sorts of things that I have probably 772 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 2: spent money on that I didn't really need and would 773 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 2: not have appreciated someone judging me for. So I try 774 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 2: to keep the judgment out of things like that. 775 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:15,760 Speaker 4: Totally. 776 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I guess you could have a 777 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 2: conversation about it, but sort of in a non accusatory way. 778 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 2: I mean, you could be sort of like, oh, what 779 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: do you think so cool about that? Tell me about it, right, 780 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 2: like why do you like this? Maybe have the kids 781 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: show you like what the in app purchase is going 782 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 2: to do, and get excited about it with them. I mean, 783 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 2: you're not dignifying it in any way, but you're at least 784 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: having a mindful conversation about spending. 785 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 3: You could maybe even if there you could be like, well, 786 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 3: how long did you get to play with that new feature? 787 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 3: And if they're like two hours, you could be like, oh, 788 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 3: so you spent this much per hour and then see 789 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 3: you know, that might make an impression on them, or 790 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 3: they might be like, that was an amazing deal. 791 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so true. 792 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 2: People are so different, so it goes, oh, well, well, 793 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 2: this has been best of both worlds. Interviewing Jessica Turner, 794 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 2: author of the brand new book. I thought it would 795 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 2: be better than this. We will be back next week 796 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: with more on making work and life fit together. 797 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 798 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, 799 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 3: and you. 800 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 801 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join 802 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life 803 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 2: work together.