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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: and there's Charles Depe, Chuck Bryant and Jerry's here. I'm

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Speaker 1: mute and this is stuff you should know. Good day.

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Speaker 1: Why are you doing in Australian greeting? There's pubs in Australia. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: fair enough, Okay. Did you uh had a really great

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Speaker 1: pub experience in Manchester? I know you told me about it.

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Speaker 1: Was it the one I can't remember the name of

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Speaker 1: it where Morrissey? What had his Heather the Smith's sad

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Speaker 1: that photo shoot? Or was that just in the same

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Speaker 1: story that probably the same story that was outside of

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Speaker 1: the Salford Lads Club, very famous photo. But I wandered

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Speaker 1: inside a gin you in old school, uh like basement

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Speaker 1: cask Ale pub in Manchester and it was great and

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Speaker 1: authentic and on such a lean like I've never seen

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Speaker 1: a floor of this slanted in my life. That wasn't

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Speaker 1: like a house of tricks. Oh, I remember that. And

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Speaker 1: then in the end of Greece, I don't know a

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Speaker 1: long time because you need a man, I don't remember that.

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Speaker 1: Did they go into a leaning house, yeah, I believe

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Speaker 1: they do, or a bounty house or really something like that. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This one is so leany that you felt like if

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Speaker 1: you were in the front of the pub and put

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Speaker 1: your point on a table, it may actually slide. Wow.

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Speaker 1: It was really leaning. So the point of going to

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Speaker 1: this pub was to get so bent that everything straightened

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Speaker 1: out for you. I don't know. No, I had a

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Speaker 1: couple of beers. It was just great, and I just

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Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for for that kind of stuff, really

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Speaker 1: old places and having a beer in an old place. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love it, definitely. Yeah. I had a couple of

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Speaker 1: nice pub experiences too. I went to one I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: It was in Dublin, right down from the Guinness Factory,

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Speaker 1: and don't remember the name of it, but it was

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Speaker 1: super old, very it was a really old pub and um,

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Speaker 1: I wish I could remember the name, but shout out

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Speaker 1: to the that pub. I can't remember. But I'm with you,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's not just us who appreciate pubs

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Speaker 1: for their homeliness, Um and Chuck. I believe that what

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Speaker 1: you went to would be called a local, a traditional

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Speaker 1: independent English pub, a neighborhood pub, and um pub we

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Speaker 1: should say short for public house to the few people

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Speaker 1: who didn't know that, now you do. And these things

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Speaker 1: are so pubs are so um essential to England into Ireland,

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Speaker 1: as we'll find too that the essay is Hilaire Bellock

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Speaker 1: wrote that when you have lost your ins, mean pubs

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Speaker 1: for all intensive purposes, drown your empty selves, for you

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Speaker 1: have lost the last of England. I love it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So where do we get pubs from the Romans? Uh? Uh?

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Speaker 1: It is true, Um, before there was a United Kingdom

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Speaker 1: and there was Roman occupation. We're talking about forty three

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Speaker 1: to four ten CE. That was we talked a lot

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Speaker 1: about Roman roads and how their big network of roads

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Speaker 1: and that was one of their big accomplishments, linking places together.

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Speaker 1: And so along these routes they had what we're called

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Speaker 1: tavern a t a b E r in a e

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Speaker 1: what we know is taverns and it was what you think,

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Speaker 1: it's like a place where a traveler can stop, have

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Speaker 1: little food and and these establishments have wine. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: the Romans were not so for wine pretty much wine

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Speaker 1: no forever right, So um, the way that you would

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Speaker 1: know what house to stop him, because this isn't a

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Speaker 1: time where they were, you know, designing shopping malls and

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Speaker 1: strip centers, like the tavern looked a lot like everybody

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Speaker 1: else's house, because it probably was somebody's house. But if

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Speaker 1: you were a new in town traveling along this Roman

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Speaker 1: road and you wanted to figure out which place was

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Speaker 1: the actual tavern, you would just look for, um, some

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Speaker 1: grape vines hanging over the door. That was the basically

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Speaker 1: the universal symbol among Roman occupied areas for a tavern.

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Speaker 1: But when they pushed further and further west, when they

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Speaker 1: got to England and occupied it, they said, well, there's

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Speaker 1: not that many grape vines here, what else can we

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Speaker 1: we use them? They started using bushes, right. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: you know, we'll talk a little bit all over the

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Speaker 1: place about the interesting pub names, because that's kind of

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Speaker 1: one of the fun things about pubs is their interesting names. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And if you see pubs name the bush or the

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Speaker 1: bull and the bush or the holly bush, Uh, it's

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Speaker 1: sort of thrown back to this old tradition where they

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Speaker 1: would hang stuff above the door to let you know,

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Speaker 1: come on in and have a drink. Right, pretty great,

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Speaker 1: That's it's kind of what all pub lore circles back

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Speaker 1: to is how awesome their names are? So what happened

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Speaker 1: to the Romans? Chuck? Did they stick around? And is

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Speaker 1: there a Roman president of the UK today? No, they

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Speaker 1: left and the Anglo Saxons took over and they liked

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Speaker 1: to drink ale. Yeah, they said to this wine stuff.

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Speaker 1: We were just pretending all this time to like wine

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Speaker 1: while the Romans were here. We actually like ale. And

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Speaker 1: the Anglo Saxons I didn't realize this. I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: what's the difference between the Anglo Saxons and the Normans

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Speaker 1: and the Vikings? And apparently there's plenty of differences. The Normans,

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Speaker 1: I guess, came up to conquer Um and I think

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Speaker 1: ten sixties six from the south from France, but they

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Speaker 1: originally still were Germanic Um they were they I think

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Speaker 1: they had some Norse people mixed in. So like I said, okay,

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Speaker 1: well who who you who lived in England originally? And

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Speaker 1: apparently it was the Celtic Britons. Okay, so this is

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Speaker 1: this is the first group that came in after the Romans.

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Speaker 1: The Romans came and conquered the Celtic Britons. They left

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Speaker 1: and I don't think I'm saying that right, because they like,

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Speaker 1: I have a tick or something like that. Um and

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Speaker 1: uh they were so. Then the Romans subsequently left and

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Speaker 1: the Anglo Saxons came in and replaced them. And the

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Speaker 1: Anglo Saxons were the ones who said, let's all start

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Speaker 1: drinking some ale. That's right, and aile is not beer.

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Speaker 1: Ale didn't have hops, which is the big differentiator there.

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Speaker 1: Hops would come along later. Uh, and people still like

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Speaker 1: that ale. But people also liked the beer for sure.

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Speaker 1: I think it was the Dutch who said, hey, you

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Speaker 1: should try these hops, man, they'll knock your socks off.

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Speaker 1: And when they did in the fifteenth century, Um, the

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Speaker 1: Britons said, well, let's let's do this where kay with

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Speaker 1: alef or We're okay with hops from now on, we're

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Speaker 1: like beer. They said, it did knock my socks off

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Speaker 1: because I'm wear shot garters. Right. But they loved Ale

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Speaker 1: so much that it was like a part of their

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Speaker 1: like like their meals. Whenever they drank something, they usually

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Speaker 1: drank ale. Um. And I think we talked about this

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Speaker 1: in the beer episode. I don't remember bars maybe maybe,

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Speaker 1: but if you were a housewife, housewife, um, you were

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Speaker 1: probably in charge of making ale for your family. And

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Speaker 1: if you were really good at making ale, the town

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Speaker 1: might know about it, and they might come and try

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Speaker 1: to buy some of your excess ale, and you might

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Speaker 1: end up supplying ale to thirsty travelers who passed through,

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Speaker 1: and the next thing you know, you're running what's known

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Speaker 1: as the ale house. That's right. They were called ale

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Speaker 1: wives or brewsters. And if you want to indicate, like

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Speaker 1: the Romans hung the grapevines and bushes and things above

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Speaker 1: the air door. Uh, they would have an ale steak

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Speaker 1: or an ale pole, which sort of from this drawing

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Speaker 1: Dave sent Dave Russ helped us with this. Uh, you

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Speaker 1: just give Dave a wou sure. Uh, it looks sort

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Speaker 1: of like a witch's broom. It was a big stick

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Speaker 1: with branches tied to the end and they would hang

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Speaker 1: it out a window or above the doorway like a

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Speaker 1: flagpole over the doorway, kind of sticking out of the house.

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Speaker 1: And that meant come on end and have a drink. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you you would like that like this is it

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Speaker 1: was really important to the Anglo Saxons and other subsequent

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Speaker 1: groups that kind of came over and took over England

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Speaker 1: to say like like the hospitality is really really important, um,

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Speaker 1: And they actually started to kind of regulate it a

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Speaker 1: little bit in part because ale houses became so popular

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Speaker 1: that they're like, this is something we can tax, but

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Speaker 1: also we don't want um any kind of social issues

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Speaker 1: arising from this. So I think it was King Edward

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Speaker 1: the Peaceful Um who started path saying like the first

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Speaker 1: uh laws that regulated drinking establishments in England. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he said, hey, how about one of these in every

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Speaker 1: town or village And he said and everyone went, okay,

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Speaker 1: I guess we can live with that, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think but I don't think it was just too limited.

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Speaker 1: I think it was also to make sure that there

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Speaker 1: was at least one in every town, that every town

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Speaker 1: had one to like, there were probably towns that didn't

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Speaker 1: have and they're like, you need to get on the trolley. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: some people are probably like hooray. And then towns that

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Speaker 1: had more than one went okay, yeah, we gotta flip

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Speaker 1: a coin. Yeah exactly. Uh. And then he also moved

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Speaker 1: on to say and maybe we shouldn't drink as much

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Speaker 1: as people and everyone went way at a minute, like

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Speaker 1: we've been drinking ale for breakfast literally, uh. And he said,

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Speaker 1: how about this thing. It's called a peg tankard, and

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a big like two lead uh drinking

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Speaker 1: vessel that has these pegs, vertical pegs and you're only

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Speaker 1: allowed to drink down to the next peg, and then

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Speaker 1: you gotta pass it along to your friend and then

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Speaker 1: they can drink down to the next bag. And if

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Speaker 1: you drink past your peg, then your tax too. Penny. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a super hygienic setup. Yeah, and two leaders,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's not that much. Well, I don't mean

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Speaker 1: for like per person, but like they think about it,

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Speaker 1: two leaders or soda? How many people were sharing that? Sure? Sure,

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Speaker 1: I mean like you know too, three four? All right,

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Speaker 1: so a leaders thirty two ounces? Yeah, so it's about

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Speaker 1: two points no points sixteen ounces? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it was about two points. No, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of a court. I think a court and a leader

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Speaker 1: are pretty close. Regardless, you're right, it's not that much.

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Speaker 1: It's a couple of forties. Man, oh man, I've had

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Speaker 1: a forty since college. It's been a while. Sat Id's

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Speaker 1: I had sat Id's at least's been says that great

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Speaker 1: song st Iights Heaven um My jam was not forties,

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Speaker 1: but I would for a little while in college I

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Speaker 1: would drink schlitz or And I know I mentioned this

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Speaker 1: before the Mickey's big mouth. Yeah sure, but I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine drinking that swill. Now, That's what I was gonna say.

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Speaker 1: Even at the time, st IDs was terrible stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I never understood. Even among the malt liquors that came

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Speaker 1: in bottles, IDs was gross. What was the eight ball?

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Speaker 1: Old English? Old English? Yes, I think that may have

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Speaker 1: been tied with st Nights. It was all pretty gross. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: The early drinking days are just nothing to be proud of. No,

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Speaker 1: it's like you call this orange juice, you call this

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Speaker 1: a cape cod right. Uh, but now we're more refined

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Speaker 1: in our old age, and we drink very tasteful small cocktails. Sure,

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Speaker 1: forty ounces at a time. I've actually dialed it back

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Speaker 1: to almost nothing these days. Uh yeah, get better sleep, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and better next days. Really, but yeah, better sleep too.

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Speaker 1: That's where the next days. To me. That's why I

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Speaker 1: was just like, this is not this is not okay. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's good as you get older that you gotta gotta

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Speaker 1: dial that back. Didn't you say you don't get affected

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Speaker 1: by it very much like hangovers. Yeah, I don't really

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Speaker 1: get that hungover, and if I do, then I willingly

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Speaker 1: wade into those waters. Oh I see, you know, like

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Speaker 1: I know what's coming and I'm like, you just one

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Speaker 1: one of those nights. But yeah, those are few and

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Speaker 1: far between these days. You schedule a blood transfusion for

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Speaker 1: the next morning, No, no, no, uh? Should we take

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Speaker 1: a break? Yeah, let's take a break and then we'll

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Speaker 1: go to the Emerald Aisle right after this. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's do it. Are we in Ireland? We are in

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Speaker 1: Ireland here, yep. Um. So they had their own kind

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Speaker 1: of pub culture, despite the fact that the Anglo Saxons

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Speaker 1: never made it into Ireland, which I didn't realize. Um,

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Speaker 1: but they they devised their own kind of um system

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Speaker 1: of hospitality as well. Like the Anglo Saxons to that said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: if you've got people coming around your town, you need

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Speaker 1: to make sure that you can take care of them.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And what is the law pronounced? How is

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Speaker 1: it pronounced? Bron okay b r e h o N.

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Speaker 1: Is that what you're gonna go with? R Briton. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure we're pronouncing that wrong, but that was sort of

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Speaker 1: the system of like legal hospitality that you were talking

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Speaker 1: about from originally from the sixth century. Uh, and you

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Speaker 1: know it was it was a lot. It comes a lot,

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Speaker 1: but it definitely put a lot of emphasis on hospitality

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Speaker 1: and kind of like in England they said, hey, uh,

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Speaker 1: every town has to have a hostel, which is also

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Speaker 1: sort of code for pub but you could spend the night.

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Speaker 1: I guess, um, yeah, but this is like I didn't

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Speaker 1: quite understand this. It said I had to be located

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Speaker 1: at the main crossroads with four doors open in each direction.

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Speaker 1: Is that symbolic or did they literally mean like, uh,

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Speaker 1: don't make them walk around the corner to get in.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and I really don't. Maybe travelers were

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Speaker 1: generally dumber than they are today back then, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: But they could only move in straight lines, That's what

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Speaker 1: I said, right. But Um, Additionally, under the law, you

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Speaker 1: had to have and you couldn't have an empty cauldron.

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Speaker 1: It always had to be ready to go with ale.

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Speaker 1: You had to have on hand raw meats and cooked

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Speaker 1: meats ready to serve, also animals ready to slaughter, and

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Speaker 1: that any time traveler showed up twenty four hours a

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Speaker 1: day you had to serve them. That was just the hospital.

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Speaker 1: It was that emphasized. It was almost like the local

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Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce was in charge of writing the laws

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Speaker 1: for them. Law. I love it. Yeah. Like Backstreet? What's

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Speaker 1: what was that? Remember that club Backstreet that was open

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours and in Atlanta, right, that was the

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Speaker 1: late night place. Yes, but it was like open twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours for real. Yeah. And I didn't go there much.

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I mean I was I was not living

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta during its heyday. This is what I mean

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Speaker 1: to say. I got you that was all about backstreets.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't live there, I see. Uh. So in

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Speaker 1: England we're kind of marching forward through time. I think

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Speaker 1: it was between thirteen and sixteen hundred. This is when

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Speaker 1: things kind of made the shift over those few hundred years,

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Speaker 1: from someone's home where the lady made great ale, uh

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Speaker 1: to an official like licensed what we would call a

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Speaker 1: pub today. Um. I still don't think they were called

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Speaker 1: public houses at the point, right, No, not until the

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Speaker 1: Victorian era in the I think the late nineteenth century,

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Speaker 1: all right, but they were actually licensing places in the

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Speaker 1: fifteen hundreds. Uh. And they made a distinction between the

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Speaker 1: three different kinds of places where you could serve booze.

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Speaker 1: The ale house, which we talked about, Uh, you could

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Speaker 1: only sell ale and beer though. Then you had your

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Speaker 1: taverns which also sold liquor and wine and food, and

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Speaker 1: then the end where you could spend the night. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And one other really big shift that took place during

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Speaker 1: that time from ale houses to common brewers with licenses

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Speaker 1: was that the licenses were given to men, So the

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Speaker 1: custom of making ale and eventually beer moved from women

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Speaker 1: to men exclusively. Basically it was taken out of women's hands. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it feels like an industry that's still very much

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Speaker 1: male dominated, uh, as is the wine industry. But I

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Speaker 1: know there's a lot of support behind female brewers and

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Speaker 1: the wine makers these days, so that's always a good

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Speaker 1: thing to seek out. Yeah, well there should be. But

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of pubs per person back then.

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Speaker 1: Uh there's a census from fifteen fifty seven that basically

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Speaker 1: showed that there was one licensed pub for every one

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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty seven people, whereas it's about one for

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Speaker 1: every six and fifty seven people today, Which I mean

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Speaker 1: if you've been to England anytime recently, like there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of pubs there. Yeah, so to imagine there

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Speaker 1: were that many more back then or that fewer people,

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Speaker 1: I guess is probably the likelier thing. The same amount

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Speaker 1: of pubs, just a lot of fewer people. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: always love working out dumb stuff in my head live

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Speaker 1: on our episodes. But there's a good example of it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: we had a great episode on gin. I didn't think

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Speaker 1: that was done by the way. It doesn't matter. It's

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Speaker 1: a combination of both. I think, Uh, more pubs in

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Speaker 1: fewer people. I appreciate you. You're being very magnanimous on

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Speaker 1: your birthday. Uh, jin that we had a great episode

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Speaker 1: on gin um. But if you remember from that episode,

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Speaker 1: in the seventeen hundreds, jin became a very sort of

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Speaker 1: evil liquor and there were moves to ban it and

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Speaker 1: limit gin drinking. But while this was going on, beer

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Speaker 1: was on the rise, and and England was all in

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Speaker 1: on beer, basically saying like we're not saying don't drink,

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Speaker 1: we're saying gin is bad and that ale and beer

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Speaker 1: is really good. Yeah, they definitely accepted it from their

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Speaker 1: ire um and there was a there was a really

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Speaker 1: good um. I guess the political cartoon it was to

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Speaker 1: two different panels in it that was produced in the

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Speaker 1: eighteenth century by William Hogarth. I think it came out

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Speaker 1: in se And on one side is Beer Street on

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Speaker 1: the left side. On the right side is a very

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Speaker 1: similar picture, but it's on Jin Lane. And if you

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Speaker 1: look into what's going on in those pictures, they're very

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Speaker 1: two very different pictures, Um and Jin Lane. It's basically

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Speaker 1: like just has been ravaged by gin. There's a mother

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Speaker 1: who's like stop. Her child is toppling over a wall

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Speaker 1: where it had just been breastfeeding because her mom is

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Speaker 1: now like trying to figure out how to buy some gin.

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Speaker 1: There's some children, um fighting over a dog or fighting

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Speaker 1: over a bone with a dog. Um. I think a

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Speaker 1: tradesman is pawning his his tools all for gin. And

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Speaker 1: then if you go over to Beer Street, it's a

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Speaker 1: different different picture altogether. For sure. Yeah, everything's happening on

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Speaker 1: Beer Street. People are working hard, they look good, they're

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Speaker 1: making art, and they're drinking beer. But what's funny is

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Speaker 1: if you look closely on the Beer Street too, there's

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Speaker 1: stuff that's there's there's a there's it's struggling a little

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Speaker 1: bit too. There's like boards over one window. Um, people

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Speaker 1: are definitely crocked. It's just hilarious that they didn't try

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Speaker 1: to make it like perfectly perfect. Like there's still like

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Speaker 1: just some some freight edges around there on Beer Street too.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was kind of funny. And then the

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Speaker 1: third panel was Weed Avenue. Nothing bad was happening there.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's just kind of sitting around. Yeah, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of PlayStation happening. I forgot what people do what when

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Speaker 1: they spoke pot I can't even come up with a

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00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:28,200
Speaker 1: decent joke here. Well, let's move to the Victorian area,

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Speaker 1: the era and area, because that is when we finally

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Speaker 1: get our name the public house, And this is when

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Speaker 1: things really sort of as as did much in the

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Speaker 1: Victorian area. Man, why do we keep saying that the

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Speaker 1: Victorian era took on a shine and a fanciness and

348
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Speaker 1: these places became pretty swank. Yeah, because while Gin was

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Speaker 1: vilified and run out of town in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, by the middle of the nineteenth century

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Speaker 1: it had come back, Remember in a different form. Originally

352
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Speaker 1: was Dutch Gin and then London Dry Gin made its

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Speaker 1: its mark in the nineteenth century. And everybody's like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: this is fine, we're making it here. And we liked

355
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Speaker 1: jin again. And so they built Jim palaces starting in

356
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Speaker 1: the eighteen forties and they were very very nice. They

357
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Speaker 1: had like marble bars and they were just really well

358
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Speaker 1: decked out. And um, the pubs started kind of replicating

359
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 1: that vibe when they were being built or remodeled or whatever.

360
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Speaker 1: And so pubs started to add like bars. Apparently they

361
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Speaker 1: didn't have bars before. I guess it was just all

362
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Speaker 1: comfortable chairs and like many tables and yeah. Um, and

363
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Speaker 1: so they added bars at this era as well. Pretty awesome. Uh.

364
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Speaker 1: In Ireland, you know, if we're again going chronologically around

365
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Speaker 1: this time, Um, they had some interesting like the pubs

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Speaker 1: over there, and I think this is true to a

367
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Speaker 1: certain degree in England too, but they were there were

368
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Speaker 1: more than just the place to go drink. It was

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Speaker 1: sort of the center for public course and activity. Uh.

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00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 1: Some of them operated other businesses, like some um acted

371
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Speaker 1: as banks during the daytime or post offices. Uh. And

372
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Speaker 1: then there was the Coroners Act of eighteen forty six

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Speaker 1: that basically said pubs have these great cool sellers and uh,

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Speaker 1: that's where dead body should be taken in our village

375
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Speaker 1: to be stored until the funeral, because every pub has

376
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: got a very cool basement, and that wasn't just the

377
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: most common thing at the time and home. So the

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00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: Corners Act of eighteen forty six, I think, demanded that

379
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Speaker 1: a dead body was brought to the nearest pub. Yeah,

380
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: and some publicans, people who own and operate pubs, um said, okay,

381
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Speaker 1: I can make some money doing that, and they started

382
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Speaker 1: installing like marble bars in the basement the sellers of

383
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: their pubs to better accommodate corpses and cadavers that came

384
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Speaker 1: their way. So they became undertakers as well. And it

385
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Speaker 1: makes me wonder like how many how many Irish pubs

386
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Speaker 1: have these marble slabs that the corpses used to be

387
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: laid out on still today, I would love to see that.

388
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Speaker 1: That would I can imagine going in for to a

389
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Speaker 1: pub for a pint and and end up getting a

390
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: tour like that. Yeah, that'd be really cool. Like you

391
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Speaker 1: suddenly woke up on Weed Street, Weed Avenue, dang uh

392
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Speaker 1: and then what about this other thing? This was really cool?

393
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: I think I love it when someone creates a drinking

394
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Speaker 1: law that also has a tremendous gaping loophole for people

395
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Speaker 1: to jump through. Uh, And that was the case in

396
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Speaker 1: eighteen in the eighteen seventies in Ireland, to kind of

397
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: tame down the pub scene, they said, all right, you

398
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: gotta close before midnight and you can only go to

399
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: these pubs um at any hour if you're what's called

400
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: a bona fide traveler, which means that you have traveled

401
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: in good faith at least three miles, like not just

402
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: three miles to go get your drink, but you're really traveling, right,

403
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: So some Dublin pubs picked up stakes and moved about

404
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: three miles outside the town. There anyone in Dublin who

405
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: went there had to be, by definition traveling, and then

406
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: it was just a blurry line whether you were a

407
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: bona fide traveler whatever. So they found that that gaping

408
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: loophole to drive through, drive their horse and carriage through. Yeah,

409
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: it's like, uh, it's one of those hard to enforce

410
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: things like cutting through a gas station to avoid a

411
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Speaker 1: red light. So you also said, Chuck that, um, the

412
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: Irish pub served as these like community centers, and English

413
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: pubs definitely do too. But I feel like the Irish

414
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: pubs actually kind of codified it with things like the

415
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: Coroners Act um. But they really served as as even

416
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: greater community centers, maybe even more vital community centers are

417
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: vitally needed ones over here in the US. When the

418
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: Irish started coming over to America beginning in the eighteen forties, UM,

419
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: they brought with them their knowledge of how to build

420
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: and operate a pub. So Irish pubs started springing up,

421
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: and they they very much served as like the glue

422
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: for the community there. Yeah, taverns especially, UM. I know

423
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Speaker 1: that here in Atlanta anytime there is a big political

424
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: discourse and activity, and they need the persons I know,

425
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: you know what I'm gonna say, they need like the

426
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: person on the streets take the news cruise will invariably

427
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: go to Manual's Tavern uh sort of right near the

428
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: Virginia Highlands in Atlanta. And it's a it's a great

429
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,719
Speaker 1: old traditional uh sort of American style tavern that's been

430
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: around for a long time that was owned by a

431
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: local politician named Manuel Maloof and as a result, he

432
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: would have events there and it became sort of a

433
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: sort of just known for political discourse in Atlanta. So

434
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: that's where the news always goes. I thought you're gonna

435
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: say they went to Backstreet that's not still open, is it?

436
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: I don't think so, but they so, Yeah, Manual's man

437
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: is it manuals? Or Manuel's it's manuals? Okay. So Manuel's

438
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: Tavern was established in nineteen fifty seven. Seems kind of old,

439
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: but apparently there's still taverns in operation today that day

440
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: back to the colonial period, even like there's one in Newport,

441
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: Rhode Island called the white Horse Tavern that says it's

442
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: been open since sixteen seventy three. Yes, not the New

443
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: York white Horse that is two years old or younger?

444
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: Oh is it? Yeah? I mean you think like the

445
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: white Horse Tavern, know, it's the oldest thing in New

446
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 1: York and not even close because the I guess it's

447
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: pronounced The Francis Tavern in New York is from uh

448
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: the seventeen eighties. Yeah, apparently George Washington took his troops

449
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: there to toast them after the British finally left the

450
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: North American continent. I've never heard of this place. I

451
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: was disappointed because I like to try and check out

452
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: the old haunts in New York, and I thought I

453
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: knew them all but this one, you know, it's down

454
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: there in the Financial District at the very lower tip

455
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: of Manhattan. Than it's just not an area I get to.

456
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: I came across um a mention of a place called

457
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: Lafitte's blacksmith Shop down in New Orleans. And it's not

458
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: a tavern or a pub, but it's supposed to be

459
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: the oldest bar in the United States, and that it's

460
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: supposedly dates from SWO and that it was called the

461
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: blacksmith Shop to throw off the authorities. It was actually

462
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: not only a bar and a llegal bar, but also

463
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: a hideout for pirates who would plan and sell their

464
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: um stolen goods there. And it's still looking to day

465
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: from what I understand. Have you seen the new pirate

466
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: show Our Flag means Death? No? Is it any good?

467
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: It's very funny. We just finished Dope Sick. Did not

468
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: see that. It's not funny, but it's really good. Uh,

469
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: what is it? Does it? What's what's the story there?

470
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: It's about the Sackler family and Produe Pharma and how

471
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: they created the ooid epidemics single handedly in the United

472
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: States and does not know it's It's a drama well

473
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: acted by every single person in it. Incredibly well written,

474
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: well directed. It just keeps moving through eight episodes. Um,

475
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: it's on Hulu and it is um Like, it's just

476
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: nuts to realize that we all just lived through that

477
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: and didn't know what was going on, and they're just

478
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: still only waking up to the damage that this this

479
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: family did. Well. Our Flag Means Death is much more

480
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 1: fun than that. I'll check that out. You check out

481
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: Dope Sick, and I'll check out our Flag means Death. Okay,

482
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: I guess we should take a break, uh, take our

483
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: second break and we'll come back and talk about pub

484
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: names and pub games right after this. All right, names

485
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: and games. Nice, you're not gonna not gonna bite no,

486
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: all right. Uh. One of the fun parts about pubs

487
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: is their names. Um, some of the names at the beginning,

488
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: like we mentioned the broom that they would put out front.

489
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes they got tired of that and they would just

490
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: put out other things, uh, like a boot or a

491
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: copper kettle. And that's where you would have pub names

492
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: like the boot or the copper kettle, especially if you

493
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: were um and a literate population at the time, which

494
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people were. For a lot of the

495
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: history of pubs. Um, you would like you would say

496
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to the Copper Kettle, not because there was

497
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: a sign that said the Copper Kettle, because they had

498
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: a copper kettle out like That's that was really helpful

499
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: in that sense. And then over time, as literacy became

500
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: more and more widespread, they would they would write the

501
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: name out and include a picture still for the people

502
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: who couldn't yet read. Yeah, that's why they had this

503
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: cool signs. Uh. It's funny, like if there was only

504
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: one per town, they should just say I'm I'm going

505
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: to beer, right, That's all they needed to say, going

506
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: to ale House. But those those pub names, they are

507
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: really weird in a lot of cases. Even if you

508
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: are English, you might think some of them are really

509
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: really weird. Um. And a lot of times you can

510
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: kind of trace the history of that town or that

511
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: area through the name of the pub. A lot of

512
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: times they trace the larger history of England, like the

513
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: pushing pulled between Catholics and Protestants, the pushing pulled between

514
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: the monarchy and um, the Cromwell and his cronies during

515
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: the English Civil War, um. Like they the names kind

516
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: of reflect these these changes over time in some ways too. Yeah,

517
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: the I think it was King Richard the lion Heart.

518
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: During the Crusades, there are a lot of these pubs

519
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: that were on the routes of the pilgrimages and soldiers

520
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: making their way over there, and so you would see

521
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: there was one that's uh I think still around uh

522
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: called ye Old Trip to Jerusalem, a little on the

523
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: nose called the Saracen's Head, also on the nose. Yeah,

524
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: I saw that ye Old Trip to Jerusalem. They have

525
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: like caves um underneath the actual current structure that they

526
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: still use for seating today that are definitely dated back

527
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: to the thirteenth century. Yeah, so I mean like it's

528
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: legit um some of the other names that kind of

529
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: have come along. Like I was saying, when when Um

530
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: Cromwell and his Puritanical people took over and I'm sorry

531
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: I miss book. That wasn't during the English Civil War.

532
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: This came later, I believe, Um but Cromwell when when

533
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: the Puritans took over and deposed the king um that

534
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: there were a lot of pub owners who said, well,

535
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, these Puritans aren't super into a lot of

536
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: the names that we have, like back in Aalia. So

537
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: that got changed the bag of nails God encompasses us,

538
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: which is you're You're like, why would they change that

539
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: that name? Um, and I remembered like the Puritans would

540
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: have taken that probably is like taking God's name in

541
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: vain and would have very much frowned on that, Okay,

542
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: So instead they went with the much less satanic goat encompasses.

543
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: My favorite is Katharina Fidelis, which is a reference to

544
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: Queen Catherine of Aragon became Cat and Fiddle because right

545
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: there in the middle of Hollywood in Los Angeles there

546
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: is still the Cat and Fiddle pub. Oh yeah, yeah,

547
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: And it's a place I used to go to and

548
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: and back then, I don't know if it's still the case,

549
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: but back then there were um, not rumors, but verified

550
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: accounts of Morrissey hanging out at the Cat and Fiddle

551
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: during the day drinking guinness. And he used to always

552
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: go by there and wonder if he was sitting out, Yeah,

553
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: would you like to put your hands on the window

554
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: and look inside. No, they had this great, uh sort

555
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: of hidden outdoor courtyard off the street that was really

556
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: really lovely. But uh, I had some really good times

557
00:32:58,640 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: at the Cat and fiddle back in the day and

558
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: still around it think um chook. Another thing that people

559
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: would do is cast their lot with the monarchy. So

560
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: you can see just the crown, which I saw that

561
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: they would consider. They would they would take the name

562
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: of the crown, because if you did something like the

563
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: Cat and Fiddle or Cat Catherina Fidelis when that monarch

564
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: was no longer on the throne, you might have to

565
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: change your name. But if you just say the Crown,

566
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: you're basically saying I'm done with the monarchy. Yeah, and

567
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: a boy. The Crown, I think, is one of the

568
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: more common pub names. It's number two from what I saw.

569
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: Number one is red Lion, which comes from all sorts

570
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: of coats of arms, and royal oak is number three,

571
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: after the tree that King Charles the Second hid in

572
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: from Cromwell and his Protestant cronies. I did look up

573
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: up there are a bunch of websites that have like

574
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: the top twenty weirdest names or whatever, uh, And I

575
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: was looking through there was one that was pretty good,

576
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: like sometimes it was what the people did way back when,

577
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: and the one called the blacksmith and the toffee maker,

578
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: so it was kind of on the nose. Can you

579
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: imagine living in town with like a bona fide toffee maker. Yeah,

580
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: I U I just lived there. I'd live outside of

581
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: their house. Once called the job Center and this is

582
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: in Deptford for real. Yeah, and it was a former

583
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: job center and they just renamed it the job Center. Uh.

584
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: And then what is the I can't find the one

585
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: with a really long name that was kind of fun.

586
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: Here's one the camel and artichokes, that's pretty fun. Or

587
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: the pyro technists Arms. Well, that was a big one.

588
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: So so there was probably a fireworks factory around there

589
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: that it was built on the side of the fireworks factory. Yeah,

590
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: so clearly that was a fairly recent one. But it

591
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: follows a longstanding tradition. Like if you if you served

592
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: um carpenters, you call your place the carpenter's Arms or

593
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: the Golden Fleece. If you had like a bunch of

594
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: woolworkers who frequented your place, or if like you were,

595
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: if you set up shop to attract like the sporting types,

596
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: you'd have like the fox and the hound or something

597
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, the dog, the lady in the tramp,

598
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: Lady in the tramp where you can share spaghetti with

599
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: no silverware. That's right, It's very cute. You end up

600
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: kissing at the end. So you you said names, but

601
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: the second half of your titilating rhyme um said games

602
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: that promised games. What kind of games are you delivering on? Well,

603
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: of course darts. I used to be quite a dart

604
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: enthusiast and played in dart leagues. Yeah, through college and

605
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: then in my post college I guess early two thousand's

606
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: Atlanta stay. For a few years before I moved back

607
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: to l A. I was still into darts. I loved it.

608
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: I think we should do a whole podcast on darts.

609
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: When I moved to l A, they had nothing but

610
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: the soft tip electronic game darts, which is no, you

611
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: can't even do that, so I didn't even bother so

612
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 1: I kind of fell out of playing. But my friend Justin,

613
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: who I've referred to a bunch of you know, still

614
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: very big into darts, and in one of the best

615
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: dart players around. He he does uh quite well and

616
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 1: like regional tournaments and like stuff. Well does much. Mr

617
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: fancy pants Justin, who's so good at darts, know that

618
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: it originated with English archers. I don't even know if

619
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: he knows the history. I'm gonna ask him. Oh, you

620
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: gotta tell him, and don't tell him. I call them

621
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: Mr fancy paint. I don't, you don't care. So apparently

622
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: it did um, that's right, and sells wine. Um. They

623
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: apparently it was English archers who would like draw targets

624
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: on um oak casks behind the bar and would shorten

625
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: their arrows and use those to kind of keep their

626
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: their marksmanship steely edged. That's right, And you know what,

627
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: I feel bad. The other day I thought about mentioning

628
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: uh he Melissa's wine shop without saying the name, because

629
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: we say so many names of places, and this is

630
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: one of my old friends. So here in Atlanta, in

631
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: the neighborhood of Kirkwood, you can go to Dombe Juice

632
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: wine shop, Melissa's Portuguese and Dombes Juice is Portuguese. They

633
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: have a great selection of Portuguese wine, but all kinds

634
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: of great wine. And knew dude that they just hired.

635
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: I just met the other day. I was talking to

636
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: him for a minute and he went by the way

637
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: big stuff. You should know fan, Oh yeah, yeah. So

638
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: we chatted up for a little while, but Uh, you,

639
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: you were more likely to see me there than anywhere

640
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,959
Speaker 1: in Atlanta. If you ever want to stop by, there's

641
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: a chance in there. And it's conveniently located in the

642
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: old back street building. Is communely located next to the

643
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: police station. Oh is that convenient? Yeah? So for the police. Yeah,

644
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: but here's the deal. You're next to police station. They're

645
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: either just getting off work and they don't want to

646
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: be bothered, or they're just getting on duty and they

647
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: don't want to be bothered. I guess you're right. So

648
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 1: it's kind of a perfect place to drink. I guess.

649
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: So you just sit outside and drink and mock them

650
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: as they come, you know, to and fro. Yeah, and

651
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: I can walk home or ride my bike. Oh well,

652
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: they you go. So it's convenient for you, is what

653
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: you're saying. That's right. So another game, Chuck is skittles. Yeah,

654
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: I didn't quite get this. It's very easy. It's a

655
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 1: bowling game, but instead of ten pins, you have nine pins,

656
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: and instead of a ball, you have a disc that

657
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 1: is about the shape and size of a cheddar cheese wheel. Okay,

658
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: you just roll it at the pins, all right. In

659
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: the South, they call that tire bowling. That's great. I

660
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: could totally see people doing that too in the South. Uh.

661
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: And then there's one other one. I mean, darts really

662
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: rules all I think of it there for pub games,

663
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: but it's something called bat and trap. Dave dug up

664
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: as an outdoor pub game that seems to be a

665
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: sort of early version of cricket. It's pretty neat. I

666
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: watched the video of it, and these people seem to

667
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: be taking it quite seriously at the pub. But there's

668
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: like a little a little gadget that holds a ball

669
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: and you tap one end of the gadget which knocks

670
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: the ball into the air, and then you hit the

671
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: ball and it looks very much like you're using a

672
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: cricket bat. I'm not sure it's called bad or not.

673
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: And then the other people field the ball and rather

674
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: than being out or not, it's now their turn to

675
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: knock down a target that's located ways away from them

676
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: where you just batted with the cricket bat. Mm hmmm.

677
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: You know bocci is big here in the States at

678
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: at bars now it has a tad bit of an

679
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: element of Bocci to it, but knocking things down with Bocci.

680
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: So I guess Bocci and Domino's plus crickets, Batton Trap

681
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: plus beer. That's right. Oh yeah, you gotta You're not

682
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,479
Speaker 1: gonna play Batton Trap unless you've been drinking. That sounds

683
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: like fun. I think you'd be like, what what is this? Uh?

684
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: So should we wrap it up with what's happening with

685
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: bubs these days? Yes? So the decline started a while ago.

686
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: Dave mentioned the late nineteenth century, and this is when

687
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: sort of the first move of what people see as

688
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: the the beginning of the end for the all encompassing

689
00:39:54,880 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: neighborhood pub is when brewers struck up deals with pubs

690
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: to only sell their beer. Uh. And they became known

691
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: as tide houses because they were tied to the one brand. Uh.

692
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: And in the nineties, it's hard to believe this is

693
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: happening that long ago, but of the pubs in the

694
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: big cities were tied houses. Yeah. And it just kept

695
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: going and going, um and escalating through the twentieth century

696
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: to and Parliament said this sounds really weird, like we

697
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: need to get a we need to get a handle

698
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 1: on exactly how widespread this tide houses thing is. Because

699
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of the brewers started kind of consolidating into

700
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: mega breweries and they found that s all of England's

701
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: pubs were under the thumbs of six brewers, and by

702
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: far Bass controlled the most. They had seventy pubs that

703
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: were tied to them. And here's the thing, like, if

704
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: if you have a pub that's tied to you, all

705
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: you all they can do is sell your merchandise. All

706
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: they can do is use glasses with your logo on it.

707
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: All they can do is sell your beer, and you

708
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: basically set the price whatever you want. It's almost like

709
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: having a franchise basically, um and so Bass had seventy

710
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: d Whitbread had, Encourage had fifty one, and then there

711
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: were just three other brewers that owned the rest of them. Um.

712
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: And that has a really homogenizing effect on everything. It's

713
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, wherever, if you drive to

714
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: any town in the United States, UM, you're gonna find

715
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: like an old Navy and the TJ Max and the

716
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,479
Speaker 1: same everything. Well, that's one thing. If you're talking about

717
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: like reasonably priced genes and you know, off brand bars

718
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: of soap, it's a totally different thing when you start

719
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: messing with the institution that is essentially the soul of

720
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 1: the nation, and that's what was going on through the

721
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: twentieth century. Yeah, and I think it's gotten even more

722
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: out of hand now because a lot of these pubs

723
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: and you know, we've seen this sort of the same

724
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: thing with uh craft brewing here in the United States

725
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: getting out by big brewers, but hasn't really happened to

726
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: my knowledge in the United States is the actual bars

727
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: haven't been bought out on mass. But that's what's happened

728
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: in England. And they're called pub cos. These big corporations

729
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: UM have bought up like tons and tons of these

730
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: pubs as sort of a real estate plague, all of

731
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: McDonald's and a lot of people the criticisms are like

732
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: this is a real estate play, Like you're not even

733
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: you're not even in this to make a good experience

734
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: at the pub. It's just about sort of the building

735
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: in the land. And they also are really strict over margins,

736
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: like if the stock prices UM fluctuate, they might, you know,

737
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: UM find ways to cut costs back at the pub,

738
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: and yeah, they don't. They don't care at all about

739
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: customer experiences or consumer experiences. And apparently UM the Smoking

740
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: Band of two thousand seven and then also the lockdowns

741
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: from coronavirus really put a hit on a lot of pubs.

742
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: A lot of pubs were lost. I think five thousand

743
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: pubs were lost in the last like five years or

744
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 1: something like that in England alone. Um but I strongly

745
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 1: suspect they're not going to ultimately go anywhere. And evidence

746
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: of that is um a group called the Campaign for

747
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: Real Ale, which I think kind of suggests that there's

748
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: always going to be this um man, I guess I

749
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: might as well just say it, this thirst for genuine

750
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: pubs in in England in places like Ireland as well. Yeah,

751
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: so they're trying to kind of go back to that

752
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: throwback to where it was true ale or real ale

753
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: before it was hopped up and carbonated like beer is

754
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: uh and that sort of you know, cast condition ale

755
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: in the basement type of thing run by a sellerman

756
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: or I guess you would say a seller person these

757
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: days hopefully, uh. And there's a more push, there's a

758
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: push to get those going. There are lists that the

759
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: Campaign for Real Ale PUSS puts out a Good Beer

760
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: Guide that lists forty five hundred camera approved pubs. Um

761
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: but yeah, coronavirus. I saw. You know, Dave listed some

762
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 1: of the oldest ones in England. Uh it's still in operation,

763
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: and he listed ye Old Fighting Cocks founded in seventeene.

764
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: That was for a while in the Guinness Book of

765
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: World's record for oldest pub before they said, you know what,

766
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: we can't really verify this stuff anymore, so we're not

767
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 1: even gonna uh list these places. But that one closed

768
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: in February. Chuck seven yeah, yeah, yeah, seven nine three.

769
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: It closed in February and the owner they still used Republican.

770
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: He said, I'm just a publican, I'm not a politician,

771
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: and so he was kind of just speaking to the

772
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: lockdowns and you know, someone else will probably open it up.

773
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: Peter has gotten involved and said, uh, you should open

774
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: it up and change the name from the Old Fighting

775
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: Cocks and only sort of vegan food. And of course

776
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: people over there just love that idea. So we talked

777
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: also about Shawn's Bar. It's supposed to be the oldest

778
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: pub ever and it is pretty close to being verified

779
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: because archaeologists in the seventies found stuff in the walls

780
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: and actually the walls being made of daub and wattle,

781
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: which I think we talked about in the Bars episode. Um,

782
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: and it's supposedly dates back to the um invasion of

783
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: the Vikings around nine so and it's still going strong

784
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: as far as I know. Yeah, that's old man. There's

785
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: also the Old Ferry Boat In, which claims to have

786
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: been operating since five sixty in Cambridgeshire. It's a great name.

787
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: Um and I don't know if that's documented or not,

788
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: but I was looking at that place and it maybe

789
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: the most charming beer garden out back I've ever seen

790
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: in my entire life. Which one the Old ferry Boat in?

791
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I looked that one up five sixty. You know,

792
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: Cambridgeshire is probably pronounced curvester. I know. As it was

793
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: coming out, I was saying, I'm going to get an

794
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: email for this good stuff. Uh. So that's it for pubs, everybody.

795
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: If you have a pub near you, especially a local

796
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: which is an independent pub, go support it. Uh. And

797
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: since I said go support it, that means, of course

798
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: it's time for listening mail. Yeah. And you know what

799
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: last facto I don't want to throw in. Uh, we

800
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: don't need to get into it. But I just had

801
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: no idea that the term gastro pub came from London.

802
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: It seems like a very American sort of name, but

803
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: it was coined in in London in the early nine es,

804
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,479
Speaker 1: is when some of the pubs started saying, hey, let's

805
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: let's stop serving UH bangers and nash and let's start

806
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: serving some uh. They call it stuff that you would

807
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: eat on vacation, basically on holiday good stuff. Uh yeah.

808
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: And since Chuck said gastro pubs, now, everybody's time for

809
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 1: a listener mail, I'm gonna call this suggestion for something

810
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: that we're actually gonna do this from Ron g Hey, guys,

811
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: just want to offer up a suggestion for land acknowledgements.

812
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: The way I found out about them was through a

813
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: seminar attended last year. The host of the seminar was

814
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: a minister of a Buddhist temple up in Sacramento, and

815
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: before he began the seminar, he read a statement acknowledging

816
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: that the land that the temple was on was previously

817
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: occupied by uh and I think he named one two

818
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: four different indigenous peoples and said, when I looked into

819
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: creating a land acknowledgement for our own temple here in

820
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, it seemed like a lot of organizations, mostly

821
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: educational institutions, have already done so. But there's some controversy

822
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: behind it. But there seems to be a lot of

823
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: good stuff out there on the topic, and I think

824
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: listeners might enjoy it. You may even want to create

825
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: a land acknowledgement for your studio so your listeners can

826
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: hear what it sounds like. And that is from Ron G.

827
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: It's a great idea, ron G and ron We're we're

828
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: gonna do this when this is in the works already. Yeah,

829
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: that's what I was saying. It's a great idea. I

830
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: remember when we were on our Australia New Zealand tour.

831
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: I think at pretty much every venue they did a

832
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: land acknowledgement at the beginning. Did It's pretty cool? So

833
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of catching up we have to

834
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: do here in the United States. Yeah, it's all part

835
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 1: of the least we can do, right. Uh. Well, let's

836
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: see if you want to get in touch of this,

837
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: like Ron G did with a great suggestion. We love

838
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: those kinds of things, send them to us. You can

839
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: wrap it up in an email and send it off

840
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: to stuff Podcasts at iHeart Radio dot com Stuff you

841
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more

842
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

843
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.