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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Pamela Kahanas grew up the

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Speaker 1: second youngest of eight siblings in a big farm family

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Speaker 1: outside Stillwater, but the twenty five year old wanted to

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Speaker 1: see more of the world, and she thought by joining

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Speaker 1: the Navy she would possibly be able to do this.

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Speaker 1: Khanas made it through two months of boot camp in Florida,

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Speaker 1: then came August fifth, a driver found her body in

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Speaker 1: the lawn of an empty house a half hour north

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Speaker 1: of the training base in Orlando. Her brothers and sisters

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Speaker 1: spent the next thirty four years in agony, and many

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Speaker 1: times I would think, you know, okay, if I say

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Speaker 1: a prayer and I lay here still tonight, I'll be

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Speaker 1: directed to what happened to her, and it just never comes.

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Speaker 1: A beautiful young female Navy recruits vicious murder. The Minnesota

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Speaker 1: woman Pamela Kahanes just twenty five years old, beaten, strangled, dead,

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Speaker 1: just two days after she graduates from Orlando Naval Training Center.

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Speaker 1: That was August. Her white uniform was found strowne just

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Speaker 1: inches away from her dead body, but as the time

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Speaker 1: ticked by, there was no answer. The family, distraught friends

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Speaker 1: came under the microscope who killed Pamela Caines joining me

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Speaker 1: an all star panel. First of all newcomer Nicol to board.

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Speaker 1: Former prosecutor, criminal defense attorney, Cheryl McCullum, Director of the

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Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, CSI expert, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert,

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Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon. Renowned California's Psycho and Let's Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. But right now to Robin Wilinski, crime online

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Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter and author of Beautiful Life, The

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Speaker 1: CSI behind the Casey Anthony Trial. To Robin Willinsky, what

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Speaker 1: can you tell me about Pamela? Because her body is found,

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Speaker 1: she's dead, beaten and strangled. Her uniform is found very

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Speaker 1: close to her body. I take that to mean she

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Speaker 1: was assaulted as well sex assaulted. Well, Nancy, she was

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Speaker 1: found with her underwear on. So they have never said

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Speaker 1: that there was a rape in this case. Wait, wait, place,

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Speaker 1: just wait wait wait. I'm sorry, Robin Wilenski. I normally

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Speaker 1: agree with every single thing you say, But Cheryl McCollum plays,

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Speaker 1: can you help me here? Let's give everybody a reality check.

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Speaker 1: A woman is found, her clothes are off, the fact

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Speaker 1: that her underwear are on, that means nothing unless she's

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Speaker 1: driving around and nothing but her underwear. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's true. So when you've got a lady in

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Speaker 1: her closer off, Cheryl, of course she was assaulted, it

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Speaker 1: certainly would make you think sexual. But n ify, here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. She's wearing a naval uniform. Maybe it was

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Speaker 1: simply somebody that didn't Okay, Um, Cheryl, I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: be nice to you because today's your birthday. But um,

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Speaker 1: you say a woman has her let me get this robin.

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Speaker 1: Her clothes are stripped off except for her underwear. That's

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Speaker 1: a yes, No, that's correct. Uniform gone uniform laying beside her. So, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: your made up theory is that someone thought she didn't

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Speaker 1: deserve to be in the armed forces, so they beat her,

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Speaker 1: killed her, strangled her, and ripped off her uniform. Is

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Speaker 1: that what you're saying. I'm saying that's a constability if

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Speaker 1: she in fact were not great. Okay, So um, help

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Speaker 1: me out, doctor Bethany Marshall, because apparently I'm not speaking

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Speaker 1: plain English. Because when you find a dead woman's body

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Speaker 1: and their clothes are ripped off. Of course it's sexual, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: My understanding was that she was bludgeoned, that there was

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Speaker 1: semen on the side of her underwear. There's a possibility

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Speaker 1: she would killed somewhere else and then dumped there. What

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Speaker 1: other motivation is there other than a sex assault. We

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Speaker 1: don't know of any intimate relationship she was in. I

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Speaker 1: don't think she had a husband or a boyfriend there.

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Speaker 1: So this doesn't seem like domestic homicide, doesn't seem like

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Speaker 1: a kidnap. Nobody was taking her somewhere so they could

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Speaker 1: have her all to themselves. No, she was accosted, assaulted,

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Speaker 1: there was semen, and she was dumped in a field. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this has sex written all over it. But of course

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Speaker 1: you know, well, you may call that sex, Bethany Marshall.

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Speaker 1: You're a psycho analyst. You know a lot more about

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Speaker 1: this field than I do. But I call that attack.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't sound like sex to me, because the word

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Speaker 1: sex means to me suggest that it's consensual, And I

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Speaker 1: certainly don't think that she would be found blood and

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Speaker 1: faced down with her clothes ripped off if it were consensual.

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Speaker 1: But you know what, that's just me, all right, so

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Speaker 1: at least you and I agree. Joseph Scott Morgan, are

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Speaker 1: you going to argue with me about this? You don't

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Speaker 1: think that the fact that she's stripped down dead means anything?

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Speaker 1: Does that mean nothing to anybody but me? Oh no,

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Speaker 1: I think that there's a strong sexual component here. I've

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Speaker 1: worked serial killings where their serial killer would have sex

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Speaker 1: with the body and then put the underwear back on

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Speaker 1: the body. But anything, okay, that will give me something

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Speaker 1: to think about as I go about my day, all right,

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Speaker 1: that they kill somebody and rape them after the death,

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Speaker 1: or then redress them after the death. You know who

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Speaker 1: did that? Right? A lot of people don't know this,

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. They think he was just this dashing lawyer

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Speaker 1: want to be had, some charming blah blah that would

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Speaker 1: go around and pick up women and then bludging them. No,

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Speaker 1: he was a complete freak, Joe Scott Morgan, isn't it true?

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Speaker 1: You know what? Let me go to Cheryl MC call

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Speaker 1: them on this one, miss miss Maybe they took her

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Speaker 1: uniform off because they didn't think she should be in

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Speaker 1: the armed forces. Cheryl. I'm going to try to pretend

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Speaker 1: that never happened with you and go forward as if

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Speaker 1: nothing went wrong. Cheryl ted Bundy. Isn't it true that

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Speaker 1: on many of his victims he would after he raped

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Speaker 1: them and murdered them, would bathe them, would fix their hair,

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Speaker 1: would put on makeup and redress them. Absolutely, he stays

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Speaker 1: many things after the fact. He spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time with his victims afterwards, no doubt about it. I

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Speaker 1: think spending time once again, Charyl, I'm gonna get you

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Speaker 1: another cup of coffee. Spending time with a victim the

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Speaker 1: body's dead. It's not like you're chatting and spending time

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Speaker 1: with somebody. You're redressing them and applying hair and makeup.

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Speaker 1: That's a little different than quote spending time with somebody

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Speaker 1: plus they're dead. Correct. What I meant was, I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to be very clear. He spent time with the corpse

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Speaker 1: after the fact. He did that. He dressed them, he

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Speaker 1: positioned them, he fixed their hair, he repositioned their clothing. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I also mentioned to you Nicolder Board let the hazing begin.

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Speaker 1: Nicolder Board. Her bra was found three days later, about

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Speaker 1: two hundred feet from where her body was found. No,

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Speaker 1: it certainly sounds like there is a sexual assault component,

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Speaker 1: and I agree with you. That's not about sex, that's

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Speaker 1: about violence. So this is definitely, in my opinion, a

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Speaker 1: very nasty attack, horrible, horrible attack. And I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: her picture right now. I'm talking about a beautiful young

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Speaker 1: Navy recruit, Pamela Cahanes murdered in the Orlando area. Now,

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Speaker 1: investigators had found DNA and they tested it and tested

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Speaker 1: it and tested it never got a match. To Robin Willinski,

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Speaker 1: the family beside themselves, what happened, Well, that's right, Dancy.

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Speaker 1: Pamela was from a small town called Stillwater, Minnesota. She

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Speaker 1: was very far away from home. She had wanted to

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Speaker 1: see the country and possibly the world, and this is

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Speaker 1: why she was in the Navy to begin with. She

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Speaker 1: was stationed at the Orlando Naval Training Center and her

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Speaker 1: body was actually found outside of an abandoned house in Sanford,

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Speaker 1: which is also in the Orlando area. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is reminding me of and I'm going to go to

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Speaker 1: you on this, Cheryl McCullum, because I think you and

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott can definitely identify if what I'm about to say.

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Speaker 1: As Robin Winsk was describing this young twenty five year

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Speaker 1: old Pamelaa Haynes coming from the small town in Minnesota,

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Speaker 1: and she joins the Navy. My dad was in the Navy,

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Speaker 1: thinking she was going to see the world, and she

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Speaker 1: ends up dead on the side of the road with

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Speaker 1: her clothes ripped off. And to make matters worse, they

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Speaker 1: can't catch the killer. I'm just thinking because Cheryl, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: we three come from an area where I came from.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing but pine trees and soybean fields as far

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Speaker 1: as you can see, red dirt. And the thought that

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Speaker 1: there was something beyond rural bib County. I mean, for many,

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Speaker 1: many years, I've never dawned on me. And then I

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Speaker 1: realized there was a big world out there. And Pamela,

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Speaker 1: just twenty five years old, ends up dead, face down, bludgeoned,

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Speaker 1: and they can't find her killer. Now take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friend at New six or Land a reporter

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Speaker 1: Jerry Askin and the victim's family relieved tonight for Pamela

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Speaker 1: Kahuntas's family, just joy, just wonderful. A detective flew to

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Speaker 1: Minnesota today, surprising her family with this news. When she

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Speaker 1: came and sat us down and said they got him,

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Speaker 1: I was jumping out of the chair. Or Hi guy,

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Speaker 1: just I couldn't believe it, cheff Lima saying it's not

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Speaker 1: clear why co Hunters was killed, but said genealogy research

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Speaker 1: helped him track down Garner from his DNA. We can

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Speaker 1: now say that we've put closure to this thing, this horrible,

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Speaker 1: horrible tragedy, and the person's responsible is not out there

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Speaker 1: walking the street crime stories with Nancy Grace to Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, this is what they had. She had been shopping,

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Speaker 1: excited about ending her recruit shop and moving into the Navy.

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Speaker 1: She had been shopping, but all of her shopping backs

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Speaker 1: when the day before were laying around her, including about

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Speaker 1: five hundred dollars in travelers checks. Everything was there and

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Speaker 1: accounted for, so it wasn't a robbery. There was a

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Speaker 1: blue cellifan on her right shoulder, a pubic hair on

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Speaker 1: her left shoulder, not her own seamen, staying on her underwear,

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Speaker 1: and a matched the DNA profile of scrapings down under

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Speaker 1: her fingernails. Yellow carpet fibers were clinging to the waistband

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Speaker 1: of her pants. And as you will recall to Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, the first time that fiber anali was used

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Speaker 1: was admitted into court in our country was in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: with the Atlanta serial killings, and the way that happened

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Speaker 1: was a man, a boy from very young to upper

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Speaker 1: teams found dead, all fitting the same general description. And

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Speaker 1: finally the only connection was fibers. Fibers from the carpet

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Speaker 1: of a car and fibers ultimately from the killer, Wayne

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Speaker 1: William's home. These fibers cracked the case. In this case,

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Speaker 1: we see yellow fibers on the back of her waistband,

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Speaker 1: which means to me that she was assaulted on yellow

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Speaker 1: carpet or her body was moved from yellow carpet. More

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Speaker 1: likely the first. It was particularly on the waistband upper pants,

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Speaker 1: nowhere else on those pants. Joe Scott Morgan explained to

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Speaker 1: me how DNA very, akin to the Golden State killer case,

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Speaker 1: cracked this case wide open. The fascinating thing about this case, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: is as with all forensics cases, is that you want connectivity.

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Speaker 1: In this particular case, as you mentioned, they did find

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Speaker 1: semen stains. One of the problems that they encountered at

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Speaker 1: that time as there was no DNA database to go to,

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Speaker 1: and so in this particular case, they built a profile

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Speaker 1: of the killer or who they thought might be the

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Speaker 1: killer based upon a genealogy, a genealogy that could stretch

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Speaker 1: back a number of years and look at family connections

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Speaker 1: through the tree. The problem with this old seman like

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Speaker 1: this that you have sometimes it will degrade, okay, and

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Speaker 1: it won't be as viable as it was a back

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Speaker 1: all those years ago. So if they get a partial

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Speaker 1: off of that, they can put it in the ballpark

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Speaker 1: and then they can zero in on a suspect. In

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Speaker 1: this particular case, they were able to get a viable sample,

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Speaker 1: a fresh sample from him, and just confirm what they

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Speaker 1: already suspect. I want you to take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friend a wj XT news for Jacksonville. This is

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Speaker 1: actually Harden, a Seminal County sheriff says, had it not

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Speaker 1: been for the actions of Thomas Garner back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty four, Pamela Kakehanes would have celebrated her sixtieth birthday

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Speaker 1: this year. Garner went before a judge yesterday showing no emotion.

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Speaker 1: But while investigators have not said what led up to

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Speaker 1: the murder, there was a murder the sheriff described as brutal.

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Speaker 1: A stranglation marks around her neck, physical damage to her

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Speaker 1: face which suggested a struggle. I know that this woman,

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Speaker 1: the victim, twenty five year old Pamelaka Haynes, was one

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Speaker 1: of eight children from Minnesota. She was seeking a new

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Speaker 1: exciting life then from small town Minnesota, and what she

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Speaker 1: got was murdered. Semen stains found on her underwear. So

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Speaker 1: to you, Robin will Lynsky, what can you tell me

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Speaker 1: about the guy who matches up to the DNA and

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Speaker 1: the semen? Well, it turns out this skuy his name

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Speaker 1: is Thomas Garner. He's fifty nine, was living in Jacksonville,

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Speaker 1: and he was a dental hygienist. And Nancy how they

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Speaker 1: actually got him was once they created that DNA profile

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Speaker 1: that's been discussed, they had a really good idea who

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Speaker 1: they were looking for, and they were kind of tracking

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Speaker 1: him and he dropped some personal items and a trash

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Speaker 1: bag that were retrieved by the detectives and it was

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Speaker 1: a match seven hundred billion to one that it was him.

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Speaker 1: The dental hygienis Okay, that's the kind of numbers that

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Speaker 1: I loved to tell the jury. Seven hundred billion to one.

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Speaker 1: Now let me talk about what she just said. Nicole

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Speaker 1: to Board former prosecutor now criminal defense attorney Nicole. So

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Speaker 1: this is what I'm hearing, and Robin jump in if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong with genealogy, and I'm just let's just say

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Speaker 1: ancestry dot com, okay, But very often they use a

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Speaker 1: public genealogy, not a private genealogy. So what happens is

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Speaker 1: you don't just go through and you find the perp.

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Speaker 1: The perp most likely has not tried to find out

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Speaker 1: whose great great great great great great grandmother is in Ireland.

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Speaker 1: All right, it's gonna be one of the perp's relatives

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Speaker 1: that has used a genealogy site. So they go in

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Speaker 1: and they get a familial family match, and so you

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Speaker 1: know you've got the family of the perp. Then they

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Speaker 1: have to do a lot of gyrations and go, for instance,

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Speaker 1: all the way back to ancestors and then come back

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Speaker 1: down through the DNA chain to find them who they

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Speaker 1: think is the perp. But then they have to get

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Speaker 1: his DNA. So they do a steak out, so they

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Speaker 1: watch the guy. They watch him discard a McDonald's coffee

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Speaker 1: cup or eat a piece of pizza, and they get

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Speaker 1: the pizza crust that he threw away, because that's abandoned property, Nicole.

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Speaker 1: They don't need a warrant. So you watch your target

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Speaker 1: and then you get anything that they've touched. A stamp,

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Speaker 1: a coffee cup, any a piece of pizza has been done,

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Speaker 1: and that's how they get the DNA. That's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: You got it exactly right. And you know all of

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Speaker 1: these people participating in these various ancestry programs so they

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Speaker 1: can find their lineage. You are really helping add to

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Speaker 1: the database for law enforcements. So bottom line on this

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Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: how much DNA does it take? Because I know for

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Speaker 1: a fact one parup was caught because he, as I said,

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Speaker 1: eight pizza, the leftovers were still in the box. He

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Speaker 1: throws the box away. They're sitting in there in the

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Speaker 1: pizzaia watching him undercover. They wait from to throw away

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Speaker 1: the pizza box. When he leaves, they get the box

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Speaker 1: and they test it. So just that amount of saliva

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Speaker 1: did it? Cheryl? Oh? Nay, it takes very little. With

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Speaker 1: today's technology. When they swab that pizza crust or the

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Speaker 1: water bottle like we had with boxes, strangler, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: get a beautiful, beautiful match. And what we're seeing now,

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Speaker 1: they're solving cases left and the right by this very methods.

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Speaker 1: They wait for somebody to discard something, they run it

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Speaker 1: through and Santry dot com or twenty four they and

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Speaker 1: they narrow it down to the actual perpetrator. It's a remarkable,

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Speaker 1: remarkable too, that we have an art. Well, I've got

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Speaker 1: another question, Dodtor Bethany Marshall, boy, do I need a shrink?

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Speaker 1: How do these suspects, how do they go on to

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Speaker 1: live seemingly normal lies after committing such a horrible crime.

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Speaker 1: Well Reading Lloyd, who's a researcher in the area of

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Speaker 1: sociopathy talks, has a phrase called the mask of sanity.

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Speaker 1: He says that these men put on what's called the

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Speaker 1: mask of sanity, that they actually know that they're different

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Speaker 1: from the rest of society. They know their killers. They

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Speaker 1: know that they don't have the emotions that everybody else has.

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Speaker 1: That they do not want to be in committed relationships.

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Speaker 1: They're often parasitic. They live off other people. They lack

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Speaker 1: empathy or remorse. They're con artists. They have a thin

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Speaker 1: veneer of affability that just cracks in a split second

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Speaker 1: when somebody disagrees with them, but they look and act normal.

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Speaker 1: They really do. I think one of the telltale signs

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Speaker 1: with these guys is that there will be a string

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Speaker 1: of broken relationships with an undercurrent of violence. And I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if we learn, as this case continues,

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Speaker 1: that this guy has either domestic abuse charges against him,

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Speaker 1: he's been on parole, he's been committing other crimes. But

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Speaker 1: this guy has not led a pure life. Nancy. It's

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Speaker 1: amazing to me that so often we see them blending

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Speaker 1: in Cheryl mccollin, look at BTK a dogcatcher that should

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Speaker 1: have been a tip off right there, but a dogcatcher

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Speaker 1: with a wife and a family, all active in his church,

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Speaker 1: seemingly blending into the community, when what he really was

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Speaker 1: is a cold bloody killer. Serial killer are the reason

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Speaker 1: they're able to get away with it, Nancy, is because

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Speaker 1: of us. We don't go about our day going man,

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Speaker 1: I bet my preacher of a killer. I bet that

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Speaker 1: guy the grocery store raised and murdered somebody. Oh, I

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Speaker 1: bet that guy that's worked at the dentist's office raised

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Speaker 1: and beat somebody to death. We don't do that. We

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Speaker 1: just take people as they tell us, they are sometimes

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Speaker 1: not as we see them, and no better. Think how

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Speaker 1: many women have dated somebody that has abused them and

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Speaker 1: they've made an excuse for him. We do that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, and we explain odd behavior and we explain violence.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of the reasons they're able to get

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Speaker 1: away with this masking, you know, sanity, as doctor Marshall

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Speaker 1: talked about, is because we allow them to. Well. Robert Olenski,

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Speaker 1: isn't it true that the authorities showed Pamela's families family

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Speaker 1: members video of the arrest and the takedown they did,

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Speaker 1: And I think it was awesome that they flew out

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Speaker 1: there to do it in person. I know it's cold

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Speaker 1: comfort for this family, but at least it is that much.

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Speaker 1: At least she's resting in peace universe. Steve Hartford student

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Speaker 1: twenty one year old Jake Washer faces two counts of

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Speaker 1: attempted murder. This attack occurred inside one of the campus apartments.

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Speaker 1: Snapchat videos obtained by Fox sixty one show the chaotic,

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Speaker 1: Hollywood like parade of ambulances and police at the Quad

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Speaker 1: apartments Sunday afternoon. We're all very like shocked and we

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Speaker 1: found out it happened. You know, we just get alerts

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Speaker 1: on our phone saying that we can't leave the school.

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Speaker 1: But it was no movie. Police say Washer snapped, stabbing

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Speaker 1: two fellow drama students spend times with chen knife as

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Speaker 1: they were re enacting a scene from the two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four sci fi thriller The Butterfly Effect. I definitely

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Speaker 1: like after seeing his mugshot, like pictures him on ends.

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Speaker 1: I've seen him around, but I didn't know him. Washer

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Speaker 1: ran the campus, thrust into lockdown. Did a twenty one

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Speaker 1: year old drama stunit snap and stab two classmates during

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Speaker 1: a re enactment of a scene at a Connecticut university.

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Speaker 1: I mean, see Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Jake Washer is believed to have

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Speaker 1: launched into a frenzied assault on two people, stabbing them

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Speaker 1: in the chest and the back during a rehearsal. It's

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Speaker 1: like a TV or a movie program where the star

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Speaker 1: is using a prop but it turns out to be

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Speaker 1: a real knife. Joining me now, Crime Online dot Com

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter John Limley, John, what happened, Nancy? This is

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Speaker 1: a Sunday afternoon on the campus of the University of Hartford,

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Speaker 1: a group of the school's drama students are working on

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Speaker 1: a project for one of their classes, presumably one that's

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Speaker 1: going to be presented in just the next couple of

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Speaker 1: days the coming week. Their assignment is to act out

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Speaker 1: and even film a scene from this two thousand and

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Speaker 1: four movie, The Butterfly Effect. This particular scene is a

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Speaker 1: violent one, one that involves a stabbing one of the students.

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Speaker 1: Jake Washer is playing the lead role that was played

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Speaker 1: by Ashton Kutcher in the movie. As the afternoon progresses,

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Speaker 1: they finally get to the point where they really want

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Speaker 1: to take the scene all the way through with no stops.

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Speaker 1: And as they get to the point when the character

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Speaker 1: played by Jake Washer is supposed to stab the two

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Speaker 1: other students there in the room, he has in his

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Speaker 1: hand of kitchen knife, and instead of just mimicking a stabbing,

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Speaker 1: he actually begins physically stabbing the other two students. And

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Speaker 1: the next thing of students in these student apartments know

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Speaker 1: they are absolutely swamped with medical personnel, police and all

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Speaker 1: sorts of trying to figure out what in the world

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Speaker 1: has happened and to get help for these students. We

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Speaker 1: are reporting on a twenty one year old Connecticut student.

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Speaker 1: It is alas she stabbed two other students during a

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Speaker 1: re enactment of a scene and from the supernatural thriller

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Speaker 1: The Butterfly Effect. Ashley Wilcot judge, lawyer anchor. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at Ashley Wilcott dot com. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know why anybody always says they snapped. Okay, my

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Speaker 1: friends at Oxy didn't even have a hit show snap.

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Speaker 1: But I've got news for everybody. There is no such

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Speaker 1: thing in the law as snapped. That is not a defense.

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Speaker 1: Oh I snapped? Really? Okay, that sounds all You got

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Speaker 1: mad and you stabbed somebody. That's what that is. That's

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Speaker 1: not Snap is not a legal defense. No, it's not

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Speaker 1: a legal defense. Now insanity is. But that means insanity,

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Speaker 1: as you well know, means you didn't understand that your

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Speaker 1: consequences so that you were going to have or in

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Speaker 1: the alternative, that they were wrong. That's not this case.

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Speaker 1: He knew he stabbed them, that it was wrong and

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Speaker 1: a bad consequence. You know, I want to go to

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Speaker 1: doctor Carol Lieberman forensic psychiatrists joining us. Carol, what do

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Speaker 1: you make of this? I mean to do this in

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Speaker 1: front of the other students at a play rehearsal. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, he told the police when they first caught

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Speaker 1: him that he wanted to see what it would be

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Speaker 1: like to stab someone. And he said he wasn't acting.

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Speaker 1: And then he changed his story and he said he

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Speaker 1: was acting and his emotions got the better of him.

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Speaker 1: He was into his character. I acted a little too hard,

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Speaker 1: he said. I think actually that there is a psychological problem.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it rises to the level of

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Speaker 1: an insanity defense, a persuasive sanity insanity defense. But he

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Speaker 1: was taken to the hospital for a psychiatric evaluation after

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Speaker 1: he was caught. I mean, it seems to me that

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Speaker 1: this could be something like I mean, he has to have,

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Speaker 1: of course, an intensive examination. But there are things that

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Speaker 1: you psychiatric issue diagnoses where you can lose touch suddenly

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Speaker 1: with reality. You know. Here's the thing. Let me think

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Speaker 1: this through to Stephen Lampley, renowned detective joining us. Stephen Lampley,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure they were not using an actual

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Speaker 1: knife as a prop which means to me he had

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Speaker 1: to bring the knife, which means to me premeditation, which

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Speaker 1: means to me follow through to the logical conclusion this

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Speaker 1: was premeditated. Yeah, Nancy, that's what I think. He planned

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Speaker 1: this all along, and I believe his original story. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to see what it was like to staff somebody.

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Speaker 1: And this is not this is not anything new. We

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Speaker 1: looked back at Edmund Kimper. He wanted to know what

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Speaker 1: it would like to kill kill grandma. You probably remember

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Speaker 1: a case back from two thousand and nine, a list

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Speaker 1: of mister Monte. She wanted to know what it would

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Speaker 1: like to kill somebody. I believe he had this planned

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Speaker 1: all along, you know, I mean, help me out here,

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Speaker 1: John Lemley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. You can

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Speaker 1: find this in all other breaking crime in justice music

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Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com. John, I doubt pretty seriously that

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Speaker 1: in this University of Connecticut. What school was it, John,

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Speaker 1: University of Hartford, thank you, University of Hartford drama class,

425
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: they had a real knife. I doubt that very seriously.

426
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: I mean, was this part of the scene I've never seen?

427
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: Although you say Ashton is the star, and you know,

428
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: if he's married to Mili Cunist, I'm sure he must

429
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: be a great guy. That's that's what I know about that.

430
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: But question, is there a stabbing scene in the butterfly effect.

431
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: There actually is. In fact, there's actually more than one

432
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: if you want to get technical, but there is one

433
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: in particular where two victims are actually actually I want

434
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: to find out how many times you can were actually

435
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: into one sentence. Actually, but okay, no offense, go ahead, start.

436
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: I sorry. There are two scenes in the movie that

437
00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: involved actually actually the one is focus at this point.

438
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: That was the assignment for the students. Takes place in

439
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: a prison and there are two other victims there in

440
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: the prison cell with the character. And yes, ordinarily a

441
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: collapsible knife is used in theater and in movies as well,

442
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: that would cause no harm whatsoever to anyone. But for

443
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: some reason, jack Washer had a physical kitchen knife in

444
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: his hand. So okay, let let's just follow that through

445
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: Ashy Wilcott. I mean, I hear doctor Carol Lieberman's forensic

446
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: psychiatrist saying that he had some kind of a mental defect. Well,

447
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: you know what he had to plan to bring that

448
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: kitchen knife in. And if I'm correct, I'll get this

449
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: from Limley. Sounds to me like after he stabs the people,

450
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: he takes off running. One victim just twenty one years old,

451
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: got two stab was to the chest and four two

452
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: the bat reportedly, Washer attacks to two drama students and

453
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: then he takes off, and this is during rehearsal for

454
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: a class assignment. He reportedly leaves the scene and runs

455
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: into the woods to hide. Help me out. I mean,

456
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: if you don't know you've done something wrong, why are

457
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: you hiding? Exactly so, Nancy, with the insanity defense, it

458
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: has to be right at the time that the act occurred.

459
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: And that's how the prosecution combats insanity defense is to

460
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: show what was the person doing before, Like you pointed out,

461
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: he had to have a knife, didn't He had to

462
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: get the knife somewhere, he had to a plan to

463
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: have the knife, and then what were they doing after?

464
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: And as you pointed out, in this case, he took off,

465
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: And that would be my argument that yes, by taking off,

466
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: he knew it was wrong. Clime stories with Nancy Grace.

467
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: He's a commuter, he's not a resident. Washer is originally

468
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: from California. He was living here on Warrenton Avenue in Hartford,

469
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: but after a tense two hours, police spotted him here

470
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: near the swampy woods on the edge of campus. He

471
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: saw police and ran back into the woods. Several more

472
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: officers responded to the area feverable commands, and the suspect

473
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: came out of the woods. All this while the bustling

474
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: campus hosted prospective students to tour the campus for what

475
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: they call their Spring visit Days. Really unfortunate day for

476
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: it to happen because there was an accepted students day,

477
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of people, you know, touring on

478
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: campus and everything. And today we also learned the names

479
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: of the victims. They are Brandon Gasparino and Thomas Knee.

480
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: Gasparino was the one who got out of the hospital today,

481
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: while Nie remains in critical condition. You were hearing our

482
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: friends at WTIC. That was Matt Caron reporting on washer

483
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: running from the Saint. You know, I think there may

484
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: be another motive to you. Ashley Wilcot, judge lawyer, anchor

485
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: at Ashley Wilcott dot com. Ashley, he was in an

486
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: off campus apartment and he was rehearsing scenes with these

487
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: other two students. It was a rehearsal for a class

488
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: assignment on The Butterfly Effect. That was a movie with

489
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: Aston Kuschner and it's a supernatural thriller that according to

490
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: John Linley does involve a stabbing scene. I'm curious. I don't.

491
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not buying this whole motive or this

492
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: whole scenario. He goes to their apartment and starts stabbing

493
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: both of them. Was there some grudge or was there

494
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: some other motive for the stabbing. It's hard to know,

495
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: but it doesn't really makes I don't know, though. I'm

496
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: torn because we do have crimes where people say I

497
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: just wanted to know, just like John pointed out what

498
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: it felt like to stab someone, to kill someone, to

499
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: shoot someone. On the other hand, we're gonna have to

500
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: look into the releasehip between him and these other two individuals.

501
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: He had the lead in the play. Who knows what

502
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: was going on in terms of their friendship, maybe the

503
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: romantic interest. We just don't know yet that we have

504
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: to look at that. Law enforcement will look at that.

505
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: The University of Hartford put in total lockdown while authority

506
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: searched through the woods for washer Washer, a young student

507
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: himself with the world in front of him, A twenty

508
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: one year old Connectut student now accused of stabbing two

509
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: others on campus during a believed reenactment of the scene

510
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: from the supernatural thriller the Butterfly Effects. So what scene

511
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: was that, John Limley, what was happening in that scene?

512
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: In the scene, the main character, Ashton Coucher in the

513
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: movie is confronted by two prisoners in a cell and

514
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: they are intimidating this new prisoner in the cell, harassing him,

515
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, the camera in the movie,

516
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: of course, shoots to his right hand and you can

517
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: see the tip of a knife sticking out, and without warning,

518
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 1: the character begins stabbing the other two prisoners they're in

519
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: the cell. The movie is about a college student, Evan Treyborne,

520
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: and he Treyborne, is afflicted with headaches that are so horrible,

521
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: so intense, he actually blacks out. And then in this thriller,

522
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: while he's unconscious from these migraines, he can travel in

523
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: time to difficult moments of his own childhood. He can

524
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: actually alter the past, and in one of these scenarios,

525
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: he alters the past of one of his best friends

526
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: named Kelly, who had been molested by her father as

527
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: a child. But then when he changes the past, it

528
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: drastically alters the present. Then he finds himself in a

529
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: horrible nightmare of two different realities, and in one of

530
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: those realities, he's actually locked away in a prison cell.

531
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: So doctor Carroll Liebermann forensic psychiatrists, with all that in mind,

532
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: I definitely need a shrink because what is this guy

533
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: Washer doing? What character is he identifying with? Because he's

534
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: going to end up being locked away in a prison

535
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: cell for life if these accusations are true. Yes, it's

536
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: life imitating art in all different kinds of ways, because

537
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: not only was he is he going to end up

538
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: in a prison cell, or he is in a sense

539
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: already in jail. So he has been art has been

540
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: life has been imitating art in a lot of different ways.

541
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: But you know, I still really do think that there

542
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: is something psychiatrically wrong with him because he was so

543
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: excited to go to this school to pursue a batched

544
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: in fine arts. He was coming from California, the University

545
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: of cal State Fullerton. You know, he wrote all kinds

546
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: of things on social media about how excited he was

547
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: his this is his dream to pursue acting. So for

548
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: him to consciously decide even if they did have some

549
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: kind of grudge, I mean, yes, it could be something

550
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: that overwhelmed him, but this ruined his whole This would

551
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: ruin his whole dream. And he was only at the

552
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: University of Hartford since this past fall. So you know,

553
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: perhaps in a way there is something also life imitating

554
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: art in that perhaps these two classmates who were playing

555
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: these roles of the two prisoners, maybe they were intimidating

556
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: him in real life or something. It's actually, from what

557
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: I understand, they were standing in their apartment on campus,

558
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: cooking in the kitchen. So I'm not sure. I mean,

559
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: doctor Carol Laberman, no, have you ever seen a murderer

560
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: that you didn't think was insane? Yes, But I don't

561
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: mean that they were intimidating him just that minute. I mean,

562
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: if there is, I don't know that there is a

563
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: backstory that they really were intimidating him before this. But

564
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: it wasn't a kitchen, I mean there was He wasn't

565
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: an apartment where there was a kitchen. And I thought

566
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: that the knife came from the kitchen, not from that

567
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: he brought it. You know, you may be right, and

568
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: it was a kitchen knife with a white handle. It

569
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: was for you know what, You're right, from a University

570
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: of Hertford campus. My question is when you're re enacting

571
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: a scene and you were rehearsing. This was an assignment

572
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: they had. He actually said to police, I was acting

573
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: too hard. Is that right, John Emley, That's correct. He

574
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: said that he just let things get out of hand.

575
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: He was a little too into his character at the moment.

576
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: You know another thing, I'll let me go to you,

577
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, renowned detective doctor Carroll Lieberman is talking about

578
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: all of his postings on social media and no mention

579
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: of him seeming abnormal, having any emotional problems, nothing. In fact,

580
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: he's excited to go to University of Hartford, no indication.

581
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean so many times, Stephen Lampa. You go online,

582
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: you find uh kokes. I was just researching the Parkland shooter,

583
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: Nicholas Cruise. You go on his social media, you see

584
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,919
Speaker 1: pictures of knives and guns and comments about school shootings

585
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,919
Speaker 1: and death and killing. I mean, you don't see any

586
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 1: of that on this guy social media. Well, I answer,

587
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 1: you don't have to. Just because they don't post on

588
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 1: social media doesn't mean that necessarily and that something's going

589
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 1: on and there's been their brain. If there's something process

590
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: is going on, Yeah, he's a killer. That's what's going

591
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: on in his brain exactly. So, yeah, just because there's

592
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: no posting on social media, you know, give or take it.

593
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: He was posting on social media. He was posting, and

594
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: it was all normal. That's what I'm saying. It's it's

595
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,879
Speaker 1: just because he was not posting about knives for guns.

596
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: You're killing that Now that really doesn't really doesn't tell

597
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 1: us a whole And now he wants a bond hearing

598
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 1: that's the last thing I want ask you. Willcott see

599
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: this guy walking across my front yard, right, I know

600
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: you don't want him out on bond because the reality

601
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: is whether he has mental health issues or not, regardless

602
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: of what his defense is going to be, I don't

603
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: think there's any dispute that he did it, and so

604
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: until those things can be determined, it's a really scary

605
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 1: problem amongst a general population. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing

606
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,