Speaker 1: Hi there, it's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
Speaker 1: the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
Speaker 1: I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
Speaker 1: I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
Speaker 1: may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
Speaker 1: Along the way, I often have to remind people to
Speaker 1: lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Speaker 1: Rules simply don't apply because all's fair in love and war.
Speaker 1: So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelts
Speaker 1: and let's go. Hi there, it's me Laura Wasser, and
Speaker 1: this is All's Fair. My name is Johnny Rains. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening today. Y'all's Fair podcast is dedicated to all
Speaker 1: things relationship, from friendships to hook ups, to marriages, divorces
Speaker 1: and everything in between. But when it comes to marriage,
Speaker 1: though I do love a good wedding, I remain unconvinced
Speaker 1: that the idea of till death do us Part is
Speaker 1: as viable as it once may have been. Well, that
Speaker 1: article we just posted on the It's Over Easy Mighty
Speaker 1: network from Fatherly, written by Jeremy Brown sort of spells
Speaker 1: it out. Is your marriage just to pack to die together?
Speaker 1: What do you think about that article? I think, I mean,
Speaker 1: I do look now that I fall into the category
Speaker 1: of great divorce or silver divorce. I mean, it is
Speaker 1: something you start thinking about a little bit more as
Speaker 1: you get into dying with your the person you're with,
Speaker 1: having somebody to grow old with, absolutely, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's no longer like, oh God, I'm gonna be with
Speaker 1: this person for the rest of my life. It's more like,
Speaker 1: oh my God, is this person going to take me
Speaker 1: into my hospice? You know? So I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's definitely something to think about. You know, when we
Speaker 1: were living until thirty five or forty, it was a
Speaker 1: lot easier to stay together until death do us part.
Speaker 1: Now that we're living so much longer, you have to
Speaker 1: really examine if you're happy in the relationship, makes sense
Speaker 1: to etcetera. And that's what they talk about in the
Speaker 1: article is kind of ways to keep it fresh, and
Speaker 1: how important intimacy is, and how easy it is to
Speaker 1: fall into the sort of just the comfort position without intimacy, right,
Speaker 1: I take comfort these days, However, when a relationship is
Speaker 1: toxic if it moves past comfortable into toxic, it can
Speaker 1: really bring you down, affecting all aspects of your life,
Speaker 1: whether you realize it or not. Peter Economy writes about
Speaker 1: this in I Love this Guy's Name. So. Peter Economy
Speaker 1: writes about this in inc Magazine. He points out that
Speaker 1: when a relationship is toxic, it stunts your growth and
Speaker 1: blocks you from growing in near full potential. But getting
Speaker 1: out of a toxic relationship is often easier said than done,
Speaker 1: and so he shares in the article seventeen super inspiring
Speaker 1: quotes to help you end a toxic relationship. M ready,
Speaker 1: this is a Steve Jobs one. Your time is limited,
Speaker 1: so don't waste it living somebody else's life. This was
Speaker 1: by Wayne Die at number sixteen on the list relationships
Speaker 1: based on obligation lack of dignity. I like that one.
Speaker 1: How about staying in and in a healthy relationship that
Speaker 1: robs you of peace of mind? Is not being loyal,
Speaker 1: It is choosing to hurt yourself mentally, emotionally and sometimes physically. Kemmy.
Speaker 1: These are all like things that you could put on
Speaker 1: an Instagram post as inspirational or completely uninspirational. Quotes in
Speaker 1: any way, thank you, Thank you INC Magazine, Thank you
Speaker 1: Peter Economy. Um. And then once you're out of a relationship,
Speaker 1: now what Well, that is what we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about today. It's up to the individual. But the next
Speaker 1: chapter is full of possibilities. You guys just need to
Speaker 1: be prepared, which is what our new video series is
Speaker 1: all about. It's called Next Chapter Life after Divorce. It
Speaker 1: is now available online at next Chapter series dot com.
Speaker 1: Today's show is all about next Chapter. So, without further ado,
Speaker 1: I am honored to introduce you all to our first guest.
Speaker 1: She is a behavioral relationship expert, personal success mentor, and
Speaker 1: the host of her own podcast, Deal with It. Welcome
Speaker 1: to All's Fair, Tracy Crossley, Thank you for having me
Speaker 1: on today. Welcome. So tell us what your advice is
Speaker 1: to people who settle in a relationship. Tracy, what do
Speaker 1: you tell these guys that call up on the podcast
Speaker 1: or that you work with. Well, I'm probably gonna go
Speaker 1: against mainstream advice, and that is first of all, people
Speaker 1: have to figure out what it is that makes them
Speaker 1: settle in the first place. A lot of times we
Speaker 1: have pressure from outside sources, society, our friends, so on
Speaker 1: and so forth. And they're telling us to get out
Speaker 1: of something we're settling for, right, and we have that
Speaker 1: little voice in our head, Oh my god, I can't
Speaker 1: believe I'm putting up with this. All of that, but
Speaker 1: that doesn't really solve the issue of why you would
Speaker 1: choose to be in a relationship and settle in the
Speaker 1: first place. So I'm all about you've got to look
Speaker 1: at what you're afraid of in leaving the relationship. What
Speaker 1: are you afraid is going to happen to you? Afraid
Speaker 1: you're gonna be alone? Are you afraid that it's a
Speaker 1: bad decision, that this is the best you're ever going
Speaker 1: to have? What is it? Okay? So now you've done that,
Speaker 1: you realize, Okay, I think I'm really I'm afraid of
Speaker 1: being alone. This is you know, there's so many good
Speaker 1: things about him or her. Do you then say to people, no,
Speaker 1: you're not going to be alone, or hey, be alone
Speaker 1: might be okay, not the worst thing in the world.
Speaker 1: I mean, are you do you generally find yourself and
Speaker 1: I of course it's a case by case, but do
Speaker 1: you generally find yourself saying deal with it, you gotta
Speaker 1: move on, You're just gonna stagn it here forever, or
Speaker 1: do you say, here's how we can work on this
Speaker 1: and make it better. I say, here's how we can
Speaker 1: work on this and make it better because a lot
Speaker 1: of times when you're settling, there's a part of you
Speaker 1: that just wants to get out right. You have that
Speaker 1: um I would call it energy of I need to
Speaker 1: get the hell out of here. And it really is
Speaker 1: about dealing with the other part of yourself that's settling
Speaker 1: and going, Okay, what is it I'm not doing because
Speaker 1: I'm probably not taking care of myself and probably not
Speaker 1: speaking up, I'm not being authentic, I'm not being honest,
Speaker 1: and so we start to delve into those areas and
Speaker 1: this is all learned from child. This is all coming
Speaker 1: from insecure attachment. For most people that settle, because there's
Speaker 1: a fear again that's bigger than the desire to leave.
Speaker 1: So you've got to make it where the desire to
Speaker 1: leave is bigger than the fear and it's just a
Speaker 1: small tipping point, it's not a huge tipping point. Do
Speaker 1: you find most people are settling from the beginning or
Speaker 1: does the settling happen as you settle into the relationship.
Speaker 1: A lot of times people have a fantasy going into
Speaker 1: a relationship. Right on the first date, they already start thinking, Oh,
Speaker 1: he would look great walking down the aisle with me,
Speaker 1: or wow, I want to introduce her to my parents.
Speaker 1: And they don't even know this person, but they're developing
Speaker 1: a dream just from what they're getting on that first date,
Speaker 1: and it just keeps continuing until it crashes and burns
Speaker 1: at some point with wow, Okay, I am settling here, right.
Speaker 1: So are these some of the things you talk about
Speaker 1: in your thirty day emotional cleanse Yes? I do, I
Speaker 1: really do get to the bottom of what it is
Speaker 1: that drives people to have either a relationship they're settling
Speaker 1: for or something that's toxic, and so of us some
Speaker 1: of the tips or the steps to get rid of
Speaker 1: those roadblocks. First of all, you have to look at
Speaker 1: where you have resistance. Resistance is a physical feeling in
Speaker 1: the body of heaviness. It makes you have a sense
Speaker 1: of inertia, like walking through cement, right, And so we'll
Speaker 1: avoid things in our lives that feel that way to us.
Speaker 1: Oh God, that's too hard, I'd rather do this. You
Speaker 1: got to do the hard stuff, right. So that's number one,
Speaker 1: which a cleans is By the way, I don't think
Speaker 1: I ever got to thirty days. It was that hard,
Speaker 1: not emotional. I never tried that. I'm would even harder.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, just even the dietary clean work started
Speaker 1: just drinking alcohol and it was really it isn't lemon juice,
Speaker 1: honey and cayenne and vodka. Yeah, it didn't work out. Okay, sorry,
Speaker 1: I don't know the vodka part. I'm thinking I added
Speaker 1: that I don't work out that all right, Okay, So yes, okay,
Speaker 1: So that's one thing. The other thing is about looking
Speaker 1: at what you focus on. Most of us focus outside
Speaker 1: of us. Were always focused on other people. But the
Speaker 1: truth is, you want to have an internal locus of control.
Speaker 1: You want to be able to come from the inside
Speaker 1: to the outside. So you have to start looking at
Speaker 1: how you personalize people, how you assume things about people.
Speaker 1: And this can be in your relationship but also around you,
Speaker 1: because the more you chip away at how you focus
Speaker 1: on everybody else and not on yourself, you start to realize,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I gotta get myself in hand. And
Speaker 1: that's why I'm always take your time with leaving a relationship,
Speaker 1: because that's the most important thing, absolutely and do you
Speaker 1: find this happens a lot, particularly with mothers, because you're
Speaker 1: focusing on the family, the kids. You know, your significant
Speaker 1: other does that? I mean I hear that a lot
Speaker 1: in my practice of you know, I can't focus on myself.
Speaker 1: I have all these things. I don't have a second
Speaker 1: to focus on me. I hear that a lot with mothers.
Speaker 1: I also hear that a lot with men. Um And
Speaker 1: the thing is with men, they start to feel and
Speaker 1: this isn't all men. This is men who usually run
Speaker 1: because they start to feel responsible for the other person,
Speaker 1: run away, right, got it? So talking about that, let's
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about dating after a divorce or
Speaker 1: breakup from a significant relationship. What are the signs that
Speaker 1: you tell people mean that they may be ready to
Speaker 1: get back out there and date. Okay, so I think
Speaker 1: dating is the greatest laboratory for self growth. Agree. Yah,
Speaker 1: you represent yourself. It's more for you than anybody else.
Speaker 1: I guess it really helps with this whole self exploration
Speaker 1: thing too. Yes, because in the crash test, dummy sitting
Speaker 1: and cross and reading a piece of swordfish and a
Speaker 1: glass of sardon. It's all about you. It is all
Speaker 1: about you. But most people make it about the other person.
Speaker 1: If I say, oh, how is the date, they'll go, well,
Speaker 1: he did this or he did that, or she did
Speaker 1: this or she did that. That has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with your experience, Right, what did you do? How did
Speaker 1: you feel? Would you date? You? Got it? And so
Speaker 1: how soon is too soon to date? I don't really
Speaker 1: have a limit on it. Some people can date right
Speaker 1: away because let's say eve been settling for last twenty
Speaker 1: years your relationship and you have nothing left, You're gonna
Speaker 1: be able to move on pretty easily. But let's say
Speaker 1: somebody is leaving you, then you're going to have to
Speaker 1: take some time and take care of yourself. So I
Speaker 1: never say that there's a day, you know, okay, three
Speaker 1: days a month. I always feel that it's whatever works
Speaker 1: for that individual got it. So now we've gotten them
Speaker 1: back out there, they're dating, they've got their online profile,
Speaker 1: they're ready to go. Let's talk about some of the
Speaker 1: pitfalls of dating in that you have to probably deal
Speaker 1: with the website. Plenty of fish says of millennial daters
Speaker 1: reported being ghosted or permanently ignored by the person they
Speaker 1: were dating. What do you first of all explain to
Speaker 1: our listeners how that happens, and what you tell people
Speaker 1: when they say I don't know. I thought I was
Speaker 1: going fine, and the next thing I knew I didn't
Speaker 1: hear from them. Again, Well, what is what does ghosting?
Speaker 1: Is that permanently ignored by the person. It's the same
Speaker 1: permanently ignored, gone, not coming back for the rest of
Speaker 1: the interview, Johnny, Okay, So we would never do that time.
Speaker 1: We love you. Okay. So when they call you and
Speaker 1: say I don't know what, how this happened? What do
Speaker 1: you say again that this is not about you, this
Speaker 1: is about them. Make it about you. And I really
Speaker 1: do say that because a lot of times we are
Speaker 1: choosing from alistic characteristics that we've had for a long time. Right, Oh,
Speaker 1: they have to be this tall, they have to have
Speaker 1: this job, they have to look at this way, whatever
Speaker 1: it happens to be. Oh, I've got to have intense
Speaker 1: sexual chemistry with them, otherwise forget it. Well, those are
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons why this happens in the first place.
Speaker 1: Because our checklist doesn't mean anything. It's I don't want
Speaker 1: to say it's stupid, but it is stupid most of
Speaker 1: the time. And what do you tell somebody what would
Speaker 1: you tell me if I was like, listen, I've been
Speaker 1: seeing this guy, I'm not into him, and it would
Speaker 1: just be so much easier since I don't have to
Speaker 1: see him all the time. If I, you know, permanently
Speaker 1: ignored him online or ghosted him. Do you do you
Speaker 1: kind of school your people in like dating etiquette. I do,
Speaker 1: and I make it all about you again because it's
Speaker 1: a growth opportunity to actually have to stand up and
Speaker 1: say I'm not really interested in dating you instead of
Speaker 1: just ghosting somebody. What's bread crumbing? So bread crumbing is
Speaker 1: a form of torture. It's basically where again, Um, it's
Speaker 1: it's a different kind of torture than the cleans the clans. Yeah,
Speaker 1: an emotional cleanse, by the way, is probably up there
Speaker 1: with the whole cayenne pepper. Yeah, it's hard to do anyways. Um,
Speaker 1: when it comes to bread crumbing, it's where you think
Speaker 1: you're being ghosted and you think things are great too.
Speaker 1: In the beginning, you think you're being ghosted, but then
Speaker 1: this person shows back up and this can go on
Speaker 1: for years where it's this yo yo relationship where they
Speaker 1: come and they give you just enough and you're in
Speaker 1: that fan of see of what you thought it was
Speaker 1: going to be on the first date, and you're sort
Speaker 1: of stuck in that mindset, right and every time he
Speaker 1: or she shows up, it pulls you right back in.
Speaker 1: Is this something that the bread crumber is doing purposely
Speaker 1: or is it just they're just kind of super selfish.
Speaker 1: They're out there and they're like, oh, that was a
Speaker 1: hot piece of ask maybe I'll text her again or something.
Speaker 1: I mean, or is it really a maniacal, machiavellian, sick
Speaker 1: old thing to do. It's a control thing, and it's
Speaker 1: a control thing that is developed from fear. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have clients like this where I have a client
Speaker 1: who goes out with a different woman every night, and
Speaker 1: he came to me because he wants a healthy relationship.
Speaker 1: And so the reason he does this is he's had
Speaker 1: bad relationships in the past. He's afraid of somebody, you know,
Speaker 1: being a meshed with it. So that's why a lot
Speaker 1: of these people will drop bread crumbs and they'll just
Speaker 1: keep it at a distance. But if he gets too close,
Speaker 1: then fear comes up and then they don't know what
Speaker 1: to do with themselves. But can you be a person
Speaker 1: that says I'm really not looking for anything serious. I'm
Speaker 1: in a period of self explorers and I want to
Speaker 1: go out with a different person every night because this
Speaker 1: is what is helping me heal and also helping me evolve.
Speaker 1: And as long as I'm honest with people about that,
Speaker 1: is that. Okay? It is, I think in the short term.
Speaker 1: But when it becomes a long term pattern, then you're
Speaker 1: just avoiding. Then there's fear about getting close. And everybody
Speaker 1: has fear about getting close. So we have to get close.
Speaker 1: If you want to have a healthy relationship, you do.
Speaker 1: If you want unhealthy and you like all the drama,
Speaker 1: which a lot of people do, like all the drama.
Speaker 1: What if you just want to be alone, but you'd
Speaker 1: like to have dinner with people and get to know people,
Speaker 1: but you're not looking for something more serious. Again, better
Speaker 1: short term? Well, it's better short term because that's a
Speaker 1: comfort zone and that's kind of a bubble that we
Speaker 1: can stay in. And from what I know, I was
Speaker 1: single for many years in between my first divorce and
Speaker 1: getting remarried, and I used it as an excuse. I
Speaker 1: used my kids as an excuse, I used everything as
Speaker 1: an excuse. So it was really comfortable to do that
Speaker 1: because I didn't have to push myself out of the nest,
Speaker 1: right And every time I pushed myself out of the nest,
Speaker 1: I had an excuse, Oh, there's only idiots out there,
Speaker 1: you know. All of that kind of stuff, got it. So, Tracy,
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about how you counsel
Speaker 1: people to prevent this from becoming a cycle that's unhealthy.
Speaker 1: Like you said, even you did it. So it's easy
Speaker 1: to fall into this pattern of I just want to
Speaker 1: keep a safe distance. But in terms of really being
Speaker 1: able to move into a healthier relationship when you're ready,
Speaker 1: how do you talk to people about taking the steps
Speaker 1: to do that. So, first of all, I have people
Speaker 1: slow down because a lot of times we're not in
Speaker 1: the present moment. We are out in the future already
Speaker 1: deciding things, Oh, this isn't gonna work, or this is
Speaker 1: gonna work, based on what I'm thinking is going to happen,
Speaker 1: rather than what is happening right now. The other thing
Speaker 1: is a lot of people don't enjoy dating. They tend
Speaker 1: to not find it fun. And I actually found it
Speaker 1: fun when I really got a clue that I was
Speaker 1: the one who was emotionally unavailable so you gotta check
Speaker 1: yourself and you gotta ask what am I doing when
Speaker 1: I go on on a date? How open am I? Am?
Speaker 1: I just so focused on the other person and reacting
Speaker 1: to them that this is this is what it becomes,
Speaker 1: is just a reaction, because that's usually what it is,
Speaker 1: instead of going, wait a minute, am I actually being real?
Speaker 1: And I used to check in with myself on dates
Speaker 1: and go, what are you saying right now? Are you
Speaker 1: actually saying something? Are you trying to get a second date?
Speaker 1: Right question? And I don't know if this is something
Speaker 1: that And again obviously case by case, how soon is
Speaker 1: too soon to sleep with somebody? Okay? So a lot
Speaker 1: of people ask me that question. In fact, I just
Speaker 1: answered it yesterday, I think, But anyway, I'm sure the
Speaker 1: answer changes every day. Well, the thing is there is
Speaker 1: no right time. Is the time of you emotionally being
Speaker 1: ready for that. And I believe that the relationship, especially
Speaker 1: if you're somebody who sleeps with people to try and
Speaker 1: hook them, or you sleep with people and you leave them,
Speaker 1: it's somebody where you feel you're building a relationship and
Speaker 1: that the relationship is in a stable position, it's progressing.
Speaker 1: There's consistency, it's growing. That's what you want. So when
Speaker 1: it's in that position, I think it's great to sleep
Speaker 1: with somebody if you're you and it for any other
Speaker 1: reason than you're doing it for the wrong reasons. What
Speaker 1: if your reason is you just want to hook up, well,
Speaker 1: then that's a whole different story. Then you're not really
Speaker 1: looking for a healthy relationship. Okay, all right? Speaking of
Speaker 1: healthy relationships, and when you are ready to get back
Speaker 1: out there, it should come as no surprise that out
Speaker 1: there these days actually means on your smartphone or your laptop.
Speaker 1: So if you haven't cracked the code yet on building
Speaker 1: the best online dating profile, stay tuned. This is All's
Speaker 1: Fair with Laura Wasser. I know divorce sucks, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be that way, which is why we've
Speaker 1: expanded our content to embrace all types of relationships. As
Speaker 1: the saying goes, all's fair in love and war, and
Speaker 1: we plan to cover it all right here every week
Speaker 1: with you. Today's show is about turning the page on
Speaker 1: a relationship you've outgrown to reveal a fresh new next
Speaker 1: chapter and dating again. We've been speaking with behavioral relationship
Speaker 1: expert Tracy Crossley about getting ready to date and join
Speaker 1: our conversation by phone now Live from Chicago. Is someone
Speaker 1: well known across the media world for her expertise guiding
Speaker 1: people towards finding love the second time around. You can
Speaker 1: find her latest article on the It's Over is the
Speaker 1: Insights blog. She's the dating expert on The Steve Harvey
Speaker 1: Show and The Kelly Clarkson Show, and she's founder of
Speaker 1: the Smart Dating Academy. Welcome to All's fair, Bella Gandhi,
Speaker 1: happy to be here. We're happy to have Did you
Speaker 1: share that Midwestern accent? Guys, we're good corn fed people
Speaker 1: here in the Midwest. Yes, you are so so tell
Speaker 1: us Bella about the Smart Dating Academy. So I realized
Speaker 1: for when I was back in college that I had
Speaker 1: really good matchmaking instincts. I set up my college roommate
Speaker 1: with the guy that I met at a fraternity party,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden I met him and I
Speaker 1: was like, the room got really quiet. It's like a
Speaker 1: scene from a movie. And when I when I sort
Speaker 1: of came to I looked at him and I said
Speaker 1: to him, I'm like, oh my god, you're gonna marry
Speaker 1: my roommate. And he looked at me. He's like, what
Speaker 1: did you just say? And then I realized how insane
Speaker 1: that sounded. I was like, you would be What I
Speaker 1: meant to say is you would be perfect for my roommate.
Speaker 1: And five years later they got engaged, they got married,
Speaker 1: they're happily living in the suburbs with three kids. And
Speaker 1: I did it again and again and just kept setting
Speaker 1: people up. My friends called me their dating Yoda. And
Speaker 1: so when I sold my last business, which was in manufacturing,
Speaker 1: I thought, what do I want to do for the
Speaker 1: rest of my life. I want to help people find love.
Speaker 1: So I started the business in two thousand nine, and
Speaker 1: what we do now is we help to fix people's pickers.
Speaker 1: Number one. Typically, if you're going around the relationship, married
Speaker 1: around once twice, three types, blown up relationships, maybe several divorces.
Speaker 1: The common denominator and that is usually US. And so
Speaker 1: we really help people to figure out their dating patterns,
Speaker 1: start to choose the right people. For women, we called
Speaker 1: the high GHQ guys. That's our trademark, High and Good
Speaker 1: Husband Qualities. And then so we coach them, We do
Speaker 1: their online photography, we write their profiles, and then they
Speaker 1: have us as like their personal trainers for their love
Speaker 1: lives for usually six to twelve months. Wow. Okay, so wait,
Speaker 1: let me just go back. So you're, what eighteen nineteen,
Speaker 1: You're at a frat party with a solo cup of
Speaker 1: bad Keg beer in your hand, and this came to
Speaker 1: you and then it happened again and again. So this
Speaker 1: is really your passion. So then you went into like
Speaker 1: the manufacturing whatever, and in two thousand nine you shut
Speaker 1: that down and thought, what is it that I really
Speaker 1: love doing? What am I really good at? So you
Speaker 1: kind of started this next career which has been going
Speaker 1: for ten years now. Yes. Yeah, we actually sold our
Speaker 1: business in two thousand six, and manufacturing business Dutch multinationals.
Speaker 1: So I was lucky enough where I didn't, you know,
Speaker 1: have to figure out where the next meal was going
Speaker 1: to come from, and I could really say, what do
Speaker 1: I want to do with the rest of my life?
Speaker 1: So my my husband, who's amazing, the best cheer later
Speaker 1: partner ever for twenty years guys with two kids by
Speaker 1: the way, I mean, she knows that she's talking about here. Okay,
Speaker 1: So and he was is does he work with you
Speaker 1: with Smart Day Academy or does he do something totally separate. No,
Speaker 1: he's in venture capital and strategy, so he has his
Speaker 1: own big jobs. So between the two of us, we
Speaker 1: somehow partner to keep all the plates up in the air.
Speaker 1: Got it all right? So now, so this has been
Speaker 1: going for ten years, and you probably have seen a shift.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. Ten years we were really
Speaker 1: just more starting out with online dating. So you've really
Speaker 1: been on the front of the wave of all of this.
Speaker 1: And let me ask you a question. This is when
Speaker 1: you said we help them with their online dating profile
Speaker 1: on their pictures. What happens when somebody wants to post
Speaker 1: a picture that just does not look like that ten
Speaker 1: years ago. No, because they're taking the pictures. But you know,
Speaker 1: how much retouching and slimming and smoothing do you allow?
Speaker 1: Because I do know so many people who say to me,
Speaker 1: I don't understand what happened. I picture of this person.
Speaker 1: I swiped right or left right, Bella, you swipe right
Speaker 1: and I'm right if you like, and any or she
Speaker 1: acts into the bar and they're like fifteen years older
Speaker 1: and thirty pounds heavier. That doesn't seem Is that cat fishing?
Speaker 1: Is that what that is? I don't know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would go with that, all right. So, so how
Speaker 1: do you regulate that bella as part of the Smart
Speaker 1: Dating Academy. If you do, we do so. Number one.
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this and you're not sure what
Speaker 1: to do, your photos should be no more than one
Speaker 1: year old, yes, one year old, right, And some people go, well,
Speaker 1: I don't really look any different than I did two
Speaker 1: or three years ago, just a little bit. So and
Speaker 1: it's just look posting old photos are overfiltered, super cute
Speaker 1: snap joey I filtered pictures. It's the first act of
Speaker 1: self sabotage, right, and ultimately it comes from like our
Speaker 1: own bad self talk like I don't look good enough.
Speaker 1: I've got to present the scrubbed up, gloat up image
Speaker 1: of me. So no, dress yourself up, shows yourself up, guys, girls, men, women,
Speaker 1: and get some good photos taken. Grab a friend who
Speaker 1: has a good camera, I mean today cell phone cameras
Speaker 1: are amazing, or even better, hire a great photographer who
Speaker 1: does non cheesy, amazing lifestyle photography. It's one of the
Speaker 1: things that we do really well. And then have photos
Speaker 1: taken of you that are not filtered and not photoshop. Okay,
Speaker 1: So now you get those up, and I know you've
Speaker 1: got packages that range from like a VI I P
Speaker 1: day in Chicago to three, six or twelve month programs
Speaker 1: when you are what you called remote coaching. Is that
Speaker 1: like when I like leave the table, go into the
Speaker 1: bathroom and start texting one of your coaches like, holy
Speaker 1: sh it, I don't know what to do he said this,
Speaker 1: or I don't I mean, is that is it that
Speaker 1: hands on? We're super hands on. We usually what we do,
Speaker 1: we're like a teaching programmler. So we teach you what
Speaker 1: to do in all of these scenarios because this is
Speaker 1: you know, matchmaking is like give a man to fish,
Speaker 1: and I believe in teaching people to fish. So we
Speaker 1: teach you about you know, less or right on each
Speaker 1: date what happens. And so usually our clients are able
Speaker 1: to navigate the dates, but then they have a dating
Speaker 1: scorecard that we've given them to rate their date and
Speaker 1: really rate themselves and how they showed up for the dates.
Speaker 1: So we're super hands on through the process with people.
Speaker 1: I like the rating yourself. That sounds a little bit
Speaker 1: like what Tracy was talking about. And I'm assuming you
Speaker 1: do male and female, yes, same sex relationships too. Yep,
Speaker 1: we do. I love is love okay? And have you
Speaker 1: ever had two people that were both your clients date
Speaker 1: each other? Yes, of course. We'll put me into this
Speaker 1: crazy business where my matchmaking instincts. So if I think
Speaker 1: that two people would be good for each other, I
Speaker 1: have set people up literally between the state of Texas
Speaker 1: and Illinois. Like, if I think you're going to spark,
Speaker 1: if I tell you I've got to guy for you,
Speaker 1: go out with him in five minutes. Tell us dating
Speaker 1: plan tip number one. So here's tell us what a
Speaker 1: dating plan is. Sorry backing up, what's a dating plan?
Speaker 1: That's a great question. So, like anything big you want
Speaker 1: to do in your life, you have to start with
Speaker 1: the plan. So many of us just start out with
Speaker 1: dating like, oh, let me just put an app on
Speaker 1: and see what happens. No, really start out with the plan.
Speaker 1: Who are you looking for this time around? What worked,
Speaker 1: what didn't work? And we do analyzes with our clients
Speaker 1: called the marriage maps. We really help them to figure
Speaker 1: out what what is going to make you happy and
Speaker 1: then manage across what I call three candidate pipelines. There's
Speaker 1: three major ways to meet people. One is using online
Speaker 1: dating or technology. The second pipeline is meeting people in
Speaker 1: real life, and the third is getting set up right.
Speaker 1: So that's your dating plan. And then we help people
Speaker 1: to cleverly and strategically push on all three of those
Speaker 1: levers to start to get good can to day to
Speaker 1: make your dating life sizzily and exciting. How many dating
Speaker 1: sites do you recommend that a person join? No more
Speaker 1: than two? No more than two. We start people off
Speaker 1: on one, and then you know, we have a fluid strategy.
Speaker 1: Have a thirty day strategy on this, not a thirty
Speaker 1: minute strategy, but a thirty days strategy on a site
Speaker 1: or an app. See how it goes, and then if
Speaker 1: you're doing well on it, we might add a second
Speaker 1: one if you've got the bandwidth to actually do that.
Speaker 1: But sometimes people will come in and say, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm on eight different sites and app and I can't
Speaker 1: meet anybody, Like Jesus, you're gonna dating a d h
Speaker 1: D like you got. Let's slim this down. And how
Speaker 1: many people should you message in each day? Do you figure?
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you generally tell people? Look, I
Speaker 1: like data and statistics so that long term averages, say
Speaker 1: that of messages online don't get a response. Ten nine
Speaker 1: aren't going to get a response, Okay, So now play
Speaker 1: with those numbers. And that's the long term game. So
Speaker 1: I tell my clients, Look, if you can message five
Speaker 1: new people a day right time seven, that's thirty five
Speaker 1: by the end of the week. Now let's assume don't respond.
Speaker 1: You could still be corresponding with three to four people
Speaker 1: on a weekly basis. And I want you to have
Speaker 1: a dating funnel, right, especially for women. We'll see one
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, I like him in our netting instincts
Speaker 1: kick in and then we just want to shut everything
Speaker 1: in it and date that one. I'm like, no, start
Speaker 1: planning the wedding, right, Start planning the wedding. He needs
Speaker 1: to earn you, he needs to earn us. Back it up,
Speaker 1: slow it down, don't put all your eggs in one basket, honey,
Speaker 1: totally and then totally. I'm a I'm a finance person
Speaker 1: by education, so I was I'm like, diversify your dating assets, right.
Speaker 1: You got to think of your dating life as a
Speaker 1: horse race and you're the prize, right, But you don't
Speaker 1: want to diversify too much because that's a the a
Speaker 1: D D problem. And maybe a little slutty, maybe an
Speaker 1: s t I problem. We we we tell our clients
Speaker 1: to prey. Speaking of the slicing, exclusivity gave sex off
Speaker 1: until you were in an exclusive relationship. And exclusive doesn't
Speaker 1: mean hey, I'm not dating anybody right now. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean you're exclusive. That means he's not dating someone else
Speaker 1: until the door pops open again. I want you to
Speaker 1: be my girlfriend. You have the conversation, there's no red
Speaker 1: flags around this person, and from our metrics over the
Speaker 1: last ten years, that's anywhere from thirteen to twenty dates
Speaker 1: with the same person. Okay, this sounds exhausting. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: let's give us a few dudes and don't of online dating.
Speaker 1: What are some of the things that are automatically like
Speaker 1: going to just shut it down. Well, I think we said,
Speaker 1: don't post photos that are old and don't look like you,
Speaker 1: and with your pictures, definitely dress yourself up. And then
Speaker 1: you've got to have head shots and body shots. Don't
Speaker 1: have other people in your photos. Sometimes we think, Okay,
Speaker 1: I want people to think I have a life, and
Speaker 1: I want you to see my kids, or I want
Speaker 1: you to see my friends. Remember, this is like your
Speaker 1: personal marketing and cyberspace. The photo should be just you
Speaker 1: doing things you love, looking cute, whatever that is, and
Speaker 1: then five to six of them at the same time
Speaker 1: head shots, and you've got to have body shots, guys,
Speaker 1: at least head to me, no, you can't just keep
Speaker 1: cutting yourself off at the neck. There are lids to
Speaker 1: every single pot out there, I promise you. And it's
Speaker 1: one of the things people will say most like I'm
Speaker 1: not happy with my weight or how I look right now.
Speaker 1: I don't really want to post body shots. I feel
Speaker 1: self conscious and like, look around. People in happy relationships
Speaker 1: are not just size zero and they're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess that's true. So you've got to have great
Speaker 1: photos and then make sure your profile text is really positive.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that. What does that mean? Like I
Speaker 1: can imagine reading one like you know, and it just
Speaker 1: sounds so negative. Hate traffic, hate people who lie, hate
Speaker 1: cheat people. I'm like, okay, dude, process of ellimination, I
Speaker 1: get it, but still so be positive and what else?
Speaker 1: Be positive and give people a little conversation starters. Don't
Speaker 1: just use a bunch of adjectives. I'm kind, I'm adventurers,
Speaker 1: I'm fun, everybody says the same things. If you want
Speaker 1: to differentiate yourself, think about what I call show versus tell.
Speaker 1: How do you show that you're kind? You know? Are
Speaker 1: you the person that bakes banana cupcakes for people whenever
Speaker 1: they're sick? If you're adventure have you climbed seven of
Speaker 1: the highest peaks? Like? Think about what makes you that
Speaker 1: your profile? Right? Okay, I think I'm probably the kind
Speaker 1: of test in a like draft process of elimination. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, Bella, I probably need to call you if
Speaker 1: I have to get back out there again. For Bella's
Speaker 1: complete guide to building the best online dating profile, visit
Speaker 1: it's over easiest community tab, click insights and search for
Speaker 1: Bella one L B E L A. Rejoining Bella and
Speaker 1: I now is behavioral relationship expert Tracy Crossley. I want
Speaker 1: to ask you both what your thoughts are on whether
Speaker 1: or not people are meant for long term monogamy. I
Speaker 1: think it depends on what you believe about yourself. If
Speaker 1: you believe that you're not, then you're going to do
Speaker 1: everything in your power to not be monogamous. So it's
Speaker 1: really up to the individual in what they believe. Okay,
Speaker 1: how about you Bella. I mean, is that that's the
Speaker 1: goal with the with the with the dating academy, right
Speaker 1: to find the person that you're going to be with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of ironic. I think human beings
Speaker 1: are one of the few species on earth that are
Speaker 1: meant to pair bond. Right, We're happy it's when we
Speaker 1: have one committed person, But now our instincts are also
Speaker 1: to keep propagating with others to kind of continue the species.
Speaker 1: And we have to struggle with having one person that
Speaker 1: we love and chairs with the instincts of potentially being
Speaker 1: attracted to other people. Yes, and so, and is that
Speaker 1: kind of a nature versus nurture? Like has society told
Speaker 1: us at a certain age, you find that person, you
Speaker 1: partner up, you procreate, and now you're done. You stay
Speaker 1: with that person and now you're done. And that's where
Speaker 1: the work comes in. Right. Getting married is the easy part.
Speaker 1: Keeping it going. It takes work, and it takes work
Speaker 1: to keep that emotional bond which creates that physical flame.
Speaker 1: How many of your clients would you say are on
Speaker 1: second time, whether they're married or have just been in
Speaker 1: long term relationships versus really getting out there for the
Speaker 1: first time. Boy, more than two thirds of the Smartating
Speaker 1: Academy clients are out there for the second third. I
Speaker 1: help someone who had had four marriages and she had
Speaker 1: her fifth, and I said to her, this till death
Speaker 1: do you part. We've amazing. I know it's bananas. How
Speaker 1: about you, Tracy? Are your most of your clients second time?
Speaker 1: Or is at least most of my clients are all
Speaker 1: over the map? In other words, I have people that
Speaker 1: are on their second time, but most of them are
Speaker 1: in between. And a lot of them have been single
Speaker 1: for years. So it's a real mix of people that
Speaker 1: are single and people that are in dysfunctional relationships. How
Speaker 1: how much to each of you deal with fear? I mean,
Speaker 1: how much fear is there in the people that you're
Speaker 1: dealing with and just getting past that? All of my clients,
Speaker 1: that's all. That's why they're there too, because a lot
Speaker 1: of them are stuck in these patterns and they can't
Speaker 1: get out of them, and they're needing somebody else to go.
Speaker 1: This is what's going on with you, and this is
Speaker 1: what you need to do. And Bella, do you find
Speaker 1: the same thing. Even if maybe they don't know it's fear,
Speaker 1: they're acting out of an insecurity, but they really it's
Speaker 1: becoming it's coming from a place of fear. Yeah, most
Speaker 1: things that we do from a place of fear don't
Speaker 1: end up serving us well. So yeah, I mean people
Speaker 1: have so many like diverse fears in the dating world,
Speaker 1: from fear of will I get a second date? You know,
Speaker 1: do I know what to talk about? Am I going
Speaker 1: to choose correctly this time around? So a hundred percent
Speaker 1: of our clients, our clients, we get to self selecting
Speaker 1: cohortive people that hire us, But they're hiring us because
Speaker 1: they need help, and underneath that help, there's an underlying
Speaker 1: fear of doing the same thing that they've done before.
Speaker 1: Got it. So back to this question of monogamy long
Speaker 1: term till death do us part? I want to open
Speaker 1: that up to our audience. Keep this conversation going with
Speaker 1: our social and it's over easy before we go, Bella
Speaker 1: and Tracy. You guys know my day job as being
Speaker 1: a lawyer, Yes, yes, absolutely so. I'm also as part
Speaker 1: of that, I'm a litigator and as such, during the
Speaker 1: discovery process of litigation, one of the tools we used
Speaker 1: to gather information in legal matters are interrogatories. So in
Speaker 1: all sphere. We twist that up for a bit of fun.
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, Bella and Tracy, do you both swear to
Speaker 1: tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing about the truth? Sure?
Speaker 1: Absolutely yes? All right? Tracy? First, which relationship in your
Speaker 1: life has had the most profound impact? I would say
Speaker 1: that my marriage right now has the most impact at
Speaker 1: the moment. In the past, my most dysfunctional relationship have
Speaker 1: the most impact. Bella, how about you? My marriage is
Speaker 1: definitely the most profoundly good thing that is happened to me.
Speaker 1: Without the husband I have, I wouldn't have been able
Speaker 1: to start this business ten years ago. Go husband's all right, Bella?
Speaker 1: What's your favorite love song? Okay, don't laugh, endless love?
Speaker 1: I can listen. How about you? I mean, you've dated yourself?
Speaker 1: But okay, um, Tracy, that's a good question that I
Speaker 1: don't really have an answer for. I can default to
Speaker 1: what it used to be, which was Layla love that song?
Speaker 1: Are you really dated yourself? She's like, she listens to
Speaker 1: the classic station. I got it. Tracy, what's the one
Speaker 1: piece of advice you'd share with your twenties something year
Speaker 1: old self to relax and slow down and not worry
Speaker 1: It's not like there's slim pickens. It's only what you
Speaker 1: think in your head. Bella, I wish I had known
Speaker 1: this quote that I read a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: that said everything you need is right inside of you already. Nice.
Speaker 1: I like that. Okay, to both of you, starting with you, Bella,
Speaker 1: which romantic comedy could you watch on repeat? Love? Actually,
Speaker 1: Love Love? Actually just watched it again over the holidays.
Speaker 1: How about you, Tracy? I like the holiday You and
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian have that in common. Actually, all right, ladies, Bella,
Speaker 1: thanks for calling into the All's Fair studio at My
Speaker 1: Heart today. Please tell people were having where they can
Speaker 1: find you online and get more info about the Smart
Speaker 1: Dating Academy. So it's easy, just go to Smart Dating
Speaker 1: Academy dot com. And we also do a lot on Instagram,
Speaker 1: which is at Smart Dating Academy dot com. We've got
Speaker 1: a free infographic on our website right now at Smart
Speaker 1: Dating Academy called the seven Clues you might be in
Speaker 1: a relationship with the Narcissist. So for you amazing listeners,
Speaker 1: go in and you can download the guy right on
Speaker 1: our site. And Bella has her own Instagram page two,
Speaker 1: which is Bella b E l A Gandhi g A
Speaker 1: N d h. I also at some Dating Academy is
Speaker 1: another page for her, and you can see TV appearances
Speaker 1: on YouTube slash Bella Gandhi. Yes, yes, and Tracy, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming in with us in person.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you and your podcast? Deal with
Speaker 1: it online and learn more about your thirty day course
Speaker 1: to Healthy Relationships. Everything is on my website. The courses
Speaker 1: on my website. You can find all my social media
Speaker 1: on my website, and I have other programs available as
Speaker 1: well there. And her instagram is at Tracy no e
Speaker 1: t r A c y L Crossley c r O
Speaker 1: S s l e Y. Website is www dot Tracy
Speaker 1: Crossley dot com and blog Tracy cross Lead dot com
Speaker 1: slash blog. Yes, yes, thank you guys both so much
Speaker 1: for being here. You were fantastic guests. Thank you for
Speaker 1: having us by Bella. We'll see you soon, I hope, yes,
Speaker 1: for sure. Keep me posted. Okay, my ladies, thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. As awesome, both so knowledgeable. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was so great. I mean I think the whole
Speaker 1: world would agree with everything they had to say, except
Speaker 1: for you bringing up how often I need to hook up. Well,
Speaker 1: I just I just remember that when like I have
Speaker 1: friends that have been in like long marriages and they
Speaker 1: split up and they went on like you know, bumble
Speaker 1: match dot com, and they were just constantly they would
Speaker 1: take somebody with their dudes, but they take somebody for
Speaker 1: dinner and then like basically it was I paid for dinner,
Speaker 1: you blow me that. I mean, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of it is like getting back out there. I don't
Speaker 1: want to say grudge fucking. It's really just that freedom
Speaker 1: fucking and meeting people. And I think I think that
Speaker 1: the tide is turned. I feel like maybe this is
Speaker 1: a whole different, more conscious coupling, politically correct looking for
Speaker 1: their relationship. I mean, maybe that's the difference between like
Speaker 1: a Tinder and a bumble I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: know enough about this, but clearly neither of them was
Speaker 1: having it. They're looking for like they're looking for the lockdown.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but I I really I love the conversation
Speaker 1: you and Dr Emily Morris had about this topic. I
Speaker 1: think it. You know, if you have been in a
Speaker 1: relationship and you break up or you get divorced, you
Speaker 1: can imagine that you haven't been having sex a lot,
Speaker 1: or there must have been problems in the relationship, so
Speaker 1: getting out there and just doing it seems to be
Speaker 1: like the first thing once what should do? Well? No,
Speaker 1: According to Emily, the first thing I want you to
Speaker 1: do is to be doing it with yourself. Yes, yes, anyway,
Speaker 1: So we'll leave you on that note. Start touching yourself immediately.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the All's Fair podcasts. Whether
Speaker 1: you're happy and single, ready to date again, or you're
Speaker 1: living contentedly with the person you've decided to cast your
Speaker 1: lot with, our relationships provide texture to the fabric of
Speaker 1: our lives. Clearly written by Drowning Okay, if you like
Speaker 1: what you're hearing, click to rate at Apple podcast and
Speaker 1: write as a quick review so we know what you
Speaker 1: want to hear next. Thanks for joining us on All's
Speaker 1: Fair until next week. I'm Laura Wasser and I'm Johnny Rains.