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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Kate, what is going on here? I can see

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Speaker 2: your eyes?

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Speaker 1: What you can't?

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Speaker 2: Are you impersonating? Kate? Who are you really?

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever seen my eyes without

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Speaker 1: classes because I always wear glasses and this is brand

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Speaker 1: new for me.

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Speaker 2: Maybe in London or no, you know, didn't you take

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Speaker 2: some photos in Denver with out your glasses? Yeah? Now, okay, but.

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Speaker 1: That was it. But you were concentrating on you and

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Speaker 1: your poses, your model poses. I don't think he were

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Speaker 1: paying attention, no to.

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Speaker 2: My mind, at all.

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Speaker 1: He was really working it. I can tell you've done

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Speaker 1: it before.

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Speaker 2: Let's strike a pose, right, Yeah, So.

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Speaker 1: I'm in the contacts still pretty weird. I will say,

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Speaker 1: if I get anything wrong, We're going to blame the contacts.

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Speaker 1: We're not gonna blame me because I'm getting used to

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Speaker 1: them still. But I do like them so and I

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Speaker 1: know you prefer them.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I prefer them just for convenience. But

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Speaker 2: I don't see as well because I've got that monovision

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Speaker 2: set up or one eye a sceptor sense in what

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Speaker 2: I set for kind of computer you know, like not

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Speaker 2: reading length, and when I'm looking at my computer screen,

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Speaker 2: even things are a little fuzzy. Now is your prescription

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Speaker 2: similar or are you for just like close up?

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Speaker 1: So I have kind of a mix. It's a little

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Speaker 1: fuzzy looking at it right now. My eyes, I think,

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Speaker 1: are still adjusting to it. But it's been really cool

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Speaker 1: to actually wear sunglasses. We have all of these super

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Speaker 1: smart audience members and they email me with all kinds

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Speaker 1: of advice. People who work at Costco and you know who,

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Speaker 1: who have experience with fitting people with glasses, and so

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Speaker 1: everybody's been giving me different advice. So I'm adjusting, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm wearing sunglasses, which is great. I never got prescription sunglasses.

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Speaker 1: I never got the like snap on things. I've just

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Speaker 1: been sort of dealing with it. So, yeah, this is new.

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Speaker 1: This has been good for me.

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Speaker 2: Now, are you okay with getting the contacts in and out?

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Speaker 1: No? I am not. Ever since you told me that

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Speaker 1: you don't like to poke at corpses with eye issues,

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Speaker 1: I've had a slight nightmare about my eyes. So first

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Speaker 1: of all, I went to YouTube, and YouTube was sort

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Speaker 1: of helpful. There are a couple of folks on YouTube

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Speaker 1: who have giant eye models, so you can see kind

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Speaker 1: of like they have a giant lens that looks like

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Speaker 1: it's about two feet long, so you can see the

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Speaker 1: curve of the lens and then they have like a

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Speaker 1: giant eye and they'll kind of demonstrate how to do it.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm going with the tip in method where

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Speaker 1: I kind of go in the lower eyelid and then

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Speaker 1: sort of pull up my upper eyelid. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm just happy I can get them in. That's it.

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Speaker 2: Getting them in for me now has become routine. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: I can struggle getting them out. Yeah, you know, and

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Speaker 2: it's I very I'll try to keep like a thumbnail,

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Speaker 2: a little bit logger, so I can kind of catch

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Speaker 2: an edge as I try to swipe them out. But

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Speaker 2: then I've also caused my eyes to bleed.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh.

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Speaker 2: So you know, just I need to be a little

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Speaker 2: more gentle with my eyeballs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're worse. I've been looking YouTube. YouTube told me

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Speaker 1: to kind of get them out, you kind of pull

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Speaker 1: them down, and getting them out is getting better and better.

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Speaker 1: I know, I just need more practice. But in the summers,

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Speaker 1: when I'm not teaching, that's when I have time to

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Speaker 1: concentrate on like this kind of stuff where I just

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Speaker 1: need to get used to something or you know, landscaping

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Speaker 1: or anything that I need to get done. So this

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Speaker 1: is my summer project, is trying to get used to

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Speaker 1: no glasses. So we'll see, I can see, I can read.

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to be fine. Hopefully, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can keep up with everything, so we'll see how costs.

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Speaker 2: Well, you look great, so.

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Speaker 1: Think and that really that's what counts.

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Speaker 2: You could be blind as a bat, but you look great.

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Speaker 2: You know. That's plenty priority there.

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Speaker 1: That's it. That's it. Well, speaking about our listeners, I

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Speaker 1: get a lot of emails, which is nice from folks

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Speaker 1: with recommendations that I have one from someone named Hailey

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Speaker 1: and it's a story from her area, which is in

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania that she thought was important. She said, a pretty

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Speaker 1: lengthy email with a lot of great details that we

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Speaker 1: used and she signed it Justice for Edith. So this

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Speaker 1: is a story that's almost one hundred years old, and

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Speaker 1: this is what I mean that when we have family

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Speaker 1: members and then just people from the community one hundred

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Speaker 1: years later who feel really passionately about these historic stories.

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Speaker 1: That's why we do the show is you know, you

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Speaker 1: get to know by reading the backgrounds of these people

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Speaker 1: who have been murdered, we get to know them and

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Speaker 1: we feel like we know them by the end of

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Speaker 1: these episodes. Hopefully that's my goal. And so she felt

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Speaker 1: like she really wanted to know more details about this story,

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Speaker 1: and stories are important, and so throughout this I'm going

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Speaker 1: to want to talk a little bit about why prosecutors

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Speaker 1: work hard to try to put together some kind of

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Speaker 1: a narrative for a jury to understand, because that's how

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Speaker 1: we kind of get through life is through these kind

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Speaker 1: of stories.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, you know for sure, you know, and when

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Speaker 2: it does come to, you know, prosecuting a case, the

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Speaker 2: jury needs to understand, of course what happened in the case,

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Speaker 2: as well as the veracity of the information they're hearing

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Speaker 2: during the trial process, but they also have to make

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Speaker 2: a decision of guilt or not, you know, So it's

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Speaker 2: you know, it's important that the DA the prosecutors are

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Speaker 2: able to convey things appropriately and then in our system,

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Speaker 2: of course, that the defense gets their adequate representation. So

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Speaker 2: you know, now the jury is having to balance, right

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Speaker 2: the information that is more geared towards incrimination and the

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Speaker 2: information that's more geared towards exculpatory.

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Speaker 1: But what if you as a prosecutor or as an

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Speaker 1: investigator pitching to a prosecutor a case, what if you

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Speaker 1: don't have a good story. What if it's like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know why he or she did it. I can't

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Speaker 1: explain it. We have some good circumstantial efface, we can

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Speaker 1: run the DNA, but we cannot find no matter what

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Speaker 1: we do, and a fair money hidden anger anything. They

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Speaker 1: were the perfect couple. What if there's no story to

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Speaker 1: sell a jury and not as much evidence as you

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Speaker 1: would like.

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Speaker 2: Well, having motive is ideal, you know, and that really

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Speaker 2: helps as part of understanding why the crime occurred. But

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Speaker 2: it's not necessary to prove who did the crime. So

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Speaker 2: that's part of you know, moving forward is sometimes there

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Speaker 2: are our cases that get prosecuted. We have no idea why,

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Speaker 2: but the facts are there. You know, the beyond a

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Speaker 2: reasonable doubt is there. You know, the information that supports

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Speaker 2: that legal criteria is present. Don't have to answer the

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Speaker 2: question as to what was the motive.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, we've talked about all of this. Let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and get into the story. We are in nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty five Pennsylvania, which I love, love, love Pennsylvania. Let's

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Speaker 1: go ahead and set the scene. We are going to

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Speaker 1: start with the discovery. A lot of times I want

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Speaker 1: to get into who the victim was first, or who

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Speaker 1: the killer was, or leave it all a mystery. But

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Speaker 1: what I want to do is get into how the

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Speaker 1: victim was found and then we'll proceed from there.

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Speaker 2: If that works for you, that works for me.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Saturday, June fifteenth, nineteen thirty five. We're in Bangor, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: This is about forty miles north of Allentown, very close

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Speaker 1: to the edge of the Poconos. Have you been to

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Speaker 1: the Poconos. I have love it, love it, love it.

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Speaker 2: I have not. Oh gosh, I know, I am sorry.

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Speaker 2: Road trip. You know, when I lived in Maryland and

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Speaker 2: I'm talking now like te second to the fourth grade,

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Speaker 2: I know if my parents we went up to Pennsylvania

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Speaker 2: and saw some of the sites up there, but I

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Speaker 2: don't think we ever even got up to Philadelphia. So

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Speaker 2: bangor Pennsylvania is I have no idea what that's about.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll learn a little bit about it. Mostly we're

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Speaker 1: going to concentrate on the victim. So again, nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: five American Sherlock was set nineteen twenty one to nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty three, but I had to go kind of before

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Speaker 1: and after to cover my forensic scientist Oscar Heinrich's life.

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Speaker 1: So I feel pretty comfortable with the forensics that were

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Speaker 1: happening at this time period. You know, some blood stained

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Speaker 1: pattern analysis, not with this case necessarily, but that was around.

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Speaker 1: Fingerprinting was around, ballistics were around, a little bit of profiling,

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Speaker 1: blood typing. Not yet, I don't think so. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: we're we're kind of in the nascent time of forensics here,

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Speaker 1: but there's some I think, some pretty good things that

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Speaker 1: we could pick up on here. Okay, there's an eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old woman who is not our victim. She is

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Speaker 1: going to be someone who makes the discovery. Her name

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Speaker 1: is Olga de Thomas. And she's watering her garden with

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Speaker 1: her mom and and this is June nineteen thirty five,

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Speaker 1: really dry a couple of weeks, it's the summer. So

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Speaker 1: she goes to the family's outdoor cistern. This is probably

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Speaker 1: the fourth time we've talked about a cistern. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: had you ever heard of it before you met me?

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Speaker 1: Had you been familiar with a cistern?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, just from the kind of the general concept.

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Speaker 2: I never had a case in which a body was

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Speaker 2: recovered in a cistern, but you know, on the West Coast,

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Speaker 2: you generally don't see those. Now, we had wells, you know,

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Speaker 2: out there in California. But in terms of this, this

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Speaker 2: concept of a cistern that was, you know, in all

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Speaker 2: these farming communities and everything else. Now, I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: that would be a new experience for me for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and cisterns kind of come in all

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Speaker 1: shapes and sizes and locations. I had a story set

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Speaker 1: in Austin on tenfold. That was a cistern in a basement,

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Speaker 1: which basements are kind of unusual. Here a cistern and

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Speaker 1: abasement where they would retrieve water. And it was lyne,

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Speaker 1: so you know, it's a container that can be underground

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Speaker 1: and it's lined in some way. We on my family

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Speaker 1: farm had a giant concrete cistern that was lined, but

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Speaker 1: it was above ground. So it's all over the place. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So we have Oga and she is pulling the cover

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Speaker 1: off of the family's outdoor cistern where she's going to

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Speaker 1: get some water. And this is a cistern that is

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Speaker 1: very deep, seventeen feet deep in her parents' backyard, and

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Speaker 1: there's not a lot of people who know it's actually

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Speaker 1: there because it's covered and not above ground, and it's

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Speaker 1: filled with eleven feet of water. So when she gets

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Speaker 1: the lid off, she sees something white floating in the water.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't think much of it. Animals would get into

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Speaker 1: the water sometimes, which just sounds disgusting, but I've seen

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Speaker 1: that pop up in a lot of stories, cats drowning.

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Speaker 1: The lid comes off like they would in a will.

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Speaker 1: So a few hours later she mentions it in passing

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Speaker 1: to her fiance is a guy named Joseph, and Joseph

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00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 1: goes and pulls it cover off the cistern and he

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Speaker 1: sees that the white thing is a body. He calls

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Speaker 1: the police. And this is a technical question for you.

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Speaker 1: The police struggle for hours to pull this weighted down body.

225
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Speaker 1: So if you're doing the math, there is seventeen feet

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Speaker 1: of cistern and it is filled with eleven feet of water,

227
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Speaker 1: so we're talking about six feet before she hits water.

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Speaker 1: It's a woman. The corner is trying to help get

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Speaker 1: her out. It's so difficult that he breaks one of

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Speaker 1: his ribs. How would you remove a body now from

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Speaker 1: this type of situation. Do you have any idea what

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Speaker 1: kind of mechanism they would use so that it doesn't

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Speaker 1: damage evidence.

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Speaker 2: With the depth of this well, we are talking this

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Speaker 2: is a difficult body recovery generally speaking. This is where now,

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Speaker 2: if I'm responding out today, you know, I'm not equipped

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Speaker 2: to remove a body from this type of cistern, from

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Speaker 2: this type of depth. This is where I'd probably be

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Speaker 2: calling fire out, or i would be calling out different

240
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,040
Speaker 2: aspects of let's say our public works department, you know.

241
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 2: And so they've got all sorts of equipment, So I'd

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Speaker 2: rely on these experts in terms of, Okay, what kind

243
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,560
Speaker 2: of mechanism do you have that would allow us to

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00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 2: be able to get this body up and also assessed.

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Speaker 2: Do I even need to get a person, a sort

246
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,800
Speaker 2: of a rescuer to go down there in order to

247
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,679
Speaker 2: be able to maybe to get a some sort of

248
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 2: platform that this body could be moved on and strapped

249
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,480
Speaker 2: on before the mechanism could haul the body up. The

250
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,120
Speaker 2: big concern is you can't really do any type of

251
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 2: true forensic processing with the body down at this depth

252
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 2: inside the cistern. So all this removal needs to be

253
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,480
Speaker 2: done in a way to protect the body and anything

254
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 2: that might be adhering to the body, the clothing, or

255
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 2: any other types of evidence within the water. I don't

256
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 2: want the body hitting against the walls of the cistern

257
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,160
Speaker 2: coming up, so it needs to be it's not just

258
00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,800
Speaker 2: a yank the body up. It needs to be a

259
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,319
Speaker 2: very controlled process. And then after the body is out

260
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,880
Speaker 2: of the cistern and is documented and assessed on the surface,

261
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,719
Speaker 2: of course, I want to see what is down in

262
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,240
Speaker 2: the cistern, and my question would be can I drain

263
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,000
Speaker 2: the cistern, right, you know, or is this something where

264
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 2: we might have to get the dive team out and

265
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,360
Speaker 2: you get somebody down in there. Maybe there's a gun

266
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,320
Speaker 2: at the bottom of the cistern or a knife, you know,

267
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 2: So that is important. And then of course the surface

268
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 2: around the cistern you have to pay attention to it

269
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, there's activity with the discovery

270
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,880
Speaker 2: of the body, and this is a form of contaminating

271
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,400
Speaker 2: the crime scene because now there could be shoe impressions.

272
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,720
Speaker 2: The cover has been moved, but is there anything that

273
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,880
Speaker 2: the offender, whoever deposited this body there, has left behind,

274
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 2: you know. So that is all part of the crime

275
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,960
Speaker 2: scene and it should be done in a very step

276
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 2: wise methodical way. You think about Oga being able to

277
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,160
Speaker 2: see something white floating down in the cistern, well, you know,

278
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 2: before the top of the water, it's six feet down.

279
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 2: If this was a very narrow cistern, the light getting

280
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 2: down there for Oga to see anything probably wouldn't happen.

281
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,200
Speaker 2: So I imagine that the opening of the cistern is

282
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,000
Speaker 2: I'm gonna just speculate let's say three feet wide at

283
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 2: least something like that, which allows the water to get

284
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 2: down six feet into this hole and lights up what's

285
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:30,720
Speaker 2: present within the water.

286
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 1: So this is a cistern, and this is a detective

287
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,920
Speaker 1: bending over and you see there's a big I mean,

288
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,840
Speaker 1: I think you are about right. Maybe this is even

289
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 1: bigger than three feet.

290
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,480
Speaker 2: You know. Taking a look at this photo that you're

291
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 2: showing of the top of the cistern, what I'm seeing

292
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 2: is is that I'm surprised it's actually a square opening,

293
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 2: and that the cover appears to be a wood cover

294
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 2: that's possibly hinged and it's opened up. I'm estimating that

295
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 2: this square opening is roughly three feet by three feet,

296
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,560
Speaker 2: which again I think would allow the light to get

297
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 2: down the six feet into this hole. So Olga could

298
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,840
Speaker 2: have seen this body. Now that opening is completely flush

299
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 2: with the ground. So this is where now the offender

300
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,280
Speaker 2: isn't having to lift the stone and the body up

301
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,720
Speaker 2: over some sort of wall structure, literally could slide the

302
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 2: stone and eat its body into this this well.

303
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 1: And look at the background. This looks rural to me.

304
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 1: There's brush, maybe it's even up against a hill. This

305
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: is supposed to be somebody's backyard, but this looks pretty

306
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,200
Speaker 1: maybe isolated based on this photo.

307
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 2: At least with ye. The backdrop behind the cistern, there's

308
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 2: a fair amount of dense vegetation, you know that would

309
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:54,960
Speaker 2: be interesting is this Is this cistern completely surrounded, you

310
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,240
Speaker 2: know by this type of vegetation and maybe there's a

311
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 2: trail that leads to it, because part of assess seeing, Okay,

312
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,080
Speaker 2: how how well known is this cistern? Is this something

313
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 2: that somebody driving by, you know, in a neighborhood road

314
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 2: or on a let's say a trail would see, or

315
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,320
Speaker 2: is this something where somebody had to have prior knowledge

316
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 2: that this sister existed in order to decide, yes, this

317
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,800
Speaker 2: is where I'm going to take this body.

318
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 1: I think investigators say, I don't think anybody except a

319
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,680
Speaker 1: member of this family or a neighbor would have known

320
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 1: about this. And also, look, this is dirt. This is

321
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,680
Speaker 1: your right flush against the ground. I think the lid

322
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 1: is would so it would have just melded right into

323
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 1: the dirt. It's the same color basically right now.

324
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,080
Speaker 2: In my experience, I've had cases that are kind of

325
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 2: what appear to be similarly isolated. So you think it's

326
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:53,399
Speaker 2: only select individuals. What you don't know is people who

327
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,440
Speaker 2: have kind of walked through here played in this location

328
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 2: as a kid. Creepers that are out there pushing through

329
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,639
Speaker 2: the vegetation to peep into houses, you know, So you

330
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,879
Speaker 2: can have somebody that has no connection to the family

331
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,640
Speaker 2: or to the property that has knowledge that the cistern exists.

332
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,840
Speaker 2: So that's just always going to be a factor, no

333
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 2: matter how isolated this location is.

334
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 1: So things we know so far. It's a woman who's

335
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,000
Speaker 1: found naked, and I'll give you some more details about

336
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 1: how she died, damage, all that kind of stuff, But

337
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,880
Speaker 1: we do know that very few people knew the cistern

338
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,280
Speaker 1: even existed. So we can look at Olga's family just initially.

339
00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 1: We can look at Joseph and her mom, and as

340
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 1: of right now, those are the only people that we

341
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,480
Speaker 1: know know anything about this cistern. It doesn't seem like

342
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 1: it would be obvious to anybody but someone in the

343
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:54,320
Speaker 1: family or a neighbor. So when they are pulling her

344
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,720
Speaker 1: out and they layer on the ground, they note several things. One,

345
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,919
Speaker 1: she has no clothes on except for a single dark

346
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 1: glove on one hand, the reason the body was so

347
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,160
Speaker 1: difficult to remove is that a large rock had been

348
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:12,240
Speaker 1: tied with a quarter inch eleven strand clothesline wire. The

349
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 1: wire was wrapped around her neck and throat, under both armpits,

350
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 1: and over one thigh before wrapping around her back. Two

351
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,719
Speaker 1: additional links were made into loops which were then tied

352
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 1: about the rock. And the rock was one twenty five,

353
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 1: So the combined weight was two seventy five. So she

354
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 1: weighed about one point fifty and the rock was about

355
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: one twenty five, is what they're saying. Now. I found

356
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 1: a photo of the wire, so thick metal wire, and

357
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 1: there's the rock. Look at that rock.

358
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,399
Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, so I'm looking at I'm assuming this is

359
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 2: one of the investigators that is holding up this this wire,

360
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,400
Speaker 2: and it truly is a metal wire. The wire itself,

361
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,199
Speaker 2: I can see, has been you know, shaped. You know,

362
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,240
Speaker 2: they obviously at this point have removed this wire from

363
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 2: around the victim's body, but it is still kinked and

364
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 2: the wire has some significant girth to it. Now, I

365
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 2: can't tell if there's a shadow that looks thinner, or

366
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 2: if there's a thinner wire that was utilized and then

367
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 2: they cut that off, Like if there's thinner wire that

368
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 2: have been used as binding, but the wire that appears

369
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 2: to I can't tell if it's still connected to the rock.

370
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 2: And I'll talk about the rock in a second. This

371
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,679
Speaker 2: isn't going to be an easy wire to wrap around

372
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 2: a body or that rock for that matter. You know,

373
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,359
Speaker 2: I think it's something that a man would be able

374
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 2: to bend and shape. But it's, in my opinion, it's

375
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 2: a poor choice. You know, it's basically the offender could

376
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: have chosen a better material. Now, this rock that is

377
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 2: a significant rock. This thing is I would say this

378
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 2: is a boulder. It's at the left foot of this detective.

379
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,479
Speaker 2: This detective I'm just going to zoom, is you know,

380
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 2: average male size. But this rock is extending up to

381
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 2: almost his knee, almost his knee, and it's got a

382
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 2: base to it. Now, I don't know what kind of

383
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 2: rock this is, you know, obviously you know, depending on

384
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: the stone.

385
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: It's limestone. Sorry to interrupt you, it's limestone.

386
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,360
Speaker 2: Well, limestone is not as heavy as granite, as example,

387
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,639
Speaker 2: so you know it's not going to be you know,

388
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 2: if it was granted, it'd be holy smokes, how did

389
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 2: this person move this? But at the same time, you know,

390
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: this is a massive object for the offender to have

391
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 2: to be able to move while this stone is connected

392
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 2: to a one hundred and fifty Poundish woman, you know.

393
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 2: So I see this and I start thinking, are there

394
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 2: multiple individuals involved in disposing of the victim's body? Yeah,

395
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: I start I start leaning that way. I wouldn't say

396
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 2: it's impossible for a single offender to accomplish this, but

397
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 2: that's a much bigger stone than I was envisioning.

398
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: So to me, there seems to be several different possibilities.

399
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 1: And before you know anything even about the victim, because

400
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 1: you don't even know anything about her or anything about

401
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: the potential killers we have here. To me, there seem

402
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: to be a couple of different possibilities for premeditation. One

403
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 1: is it's not premeditated at all. She's either killed there,

404
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: or let's say she's killed there. There's an argument, and

405
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: there happens to be wire that is laying around, because

406
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 1: this does look pretty dense and rule to me and

407
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: this rock, and they panic and drag her over and

408
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 1: figure out how to dispose of the body. Two, somebody

409
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: carries this wire, which doesn't look very easy to do,

410
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: to the scene, but not the rock. And then three

411
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: they carry both to the scene with the intention of

412
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: disposing of a body. None of them sound good to me.

413
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 1: Seems so hard, But it would have concealed the body, well,

414
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: I guess, except somebody looked into the cistern.

415
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: Right, you know, And that's really you know, getting answers

416
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 2: to that question. Was this material present right there by

417
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: the cistern? And that's of course interviewing Oga, her family,

418
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 2: other people who interact with the cistern. Is that something

419
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: that they say, Oh, yeah, that rock used to be

420
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 2: over here, and that wire, you know, was over on

421
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 2: this side. And so the offender just utilized materials at hand.

422
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 2: If this stone and if this wire is foreign to

423
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 2: the scene, then where did it come from and how

424
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 2: did it get to this location? And this also would

425
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: suggest that possibly the victim had been killed at a

426
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: separate location and then brought to this location along with

427
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: the material to weigh her down in the cistern. That's indicating,

428
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: at least for body disposal, the offender or offenders developed

429
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 2: a plan and chose the cistern because they had prior

430
00:23:58,880 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: knowledge of that system.

431
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: Well, let's move along and get to who this is

432
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: and what her injuries are. So I mentioned that ultimately

433
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 1: the corner was the one who helped remove her, and

434
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: he broke a couple of his ribs, one of his

435
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: ribs trying to get her out. She's naked, she's got

436
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: this single dark glove on. It is alarming to everybody there.

437
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: There's a researcher who I'm going to refer to a

438
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: lot named Brian Carroll, who did tons of me pulled

439
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 1: all kinds of newspaper articles and really put some great

440
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: stuff together. And he said that a single dark glove

441
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: had been a hint during this time period of a

442
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: secret criminal society of extortionists known as the Black Hand organization.

443
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: And so immediately that's what everybody thought. But it was

444
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: always a black glove placed on a victim if they

445
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: were murdered, not a blue glove. And this was a

446
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: blue glove. So you know already. I think investigators are

447
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how did this woman end up

448
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 1: at the bottom of a well strangled? It sounds like

449
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: with the same wire. Now, will you also talk to

450
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: me about that? Would that have been easy with this

451
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: wire that you're looking at to strangle somebody with it?

452
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: Is it malleable enough? You think?

453
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: Well, I think if the if the wire is something

454
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 2: that the offender could manipulate and since around the victim's neck,

455
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: then it's it's entirely possible. Right now, you know, I

456
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: need to know more about you know, the you know,

457
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 2: if they have autopsy results, does she have any other injuries?

458
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,719
Speaker 2: You know, was she completely bound prior to possibly being strangled?

459
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 2: Is it possible she has other injuries to indicate that

460
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: she had been had lost consciousness. So just don't know

461
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 2: right now. But the wire itself, I'm almost got the

462
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: sensation in my hands in terms of how hard this

463
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: wire would be. Is that once this wire is bent

464
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: and it's bent enough to wear, it's cutting off circulation

465
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: to the victim's brain at least, you know, closing off

466
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: the jugular veins. And then all you have to do

467
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 2: is just kind of you don't have to tie it

468
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: a knot. You just have to kind of bend it

469
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: and it's going to stay in place. This is a

470
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: stiff wire, you know, there's no way it's going to

471
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: be tied into a you know, a bow knot. You know,

472
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: it's it Literally all you have to do is just

473
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: kind of sense the two ends around each other and

474
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: leave it in place. So yes, I think it's I mean,

475
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: it is entirely possible the victim could have been killed

476
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: using this wire, but I definitely want to know more.

477
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me give you more. So the autopsy

478
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: finds that there's a wound to her head, which is

479
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: a large bruise above her eyebrow extending to the side

480
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: of her head. They think that she was hint with

481
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: a blunt object before she was strangled with the wire,

482
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: and that her right wrist is broken, and we don't

483
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: know if this is the same rist that the glove

484
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: was on. Is it possible, though, that all of these

485
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: injuries are the result of the haphazard way they were

486
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: forced to get her out of the cistern or would

487
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: this have been obvious? I think the strangulation would have

488
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: been obvious. But what about this kind of bruise that

489
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: they're talking about.

490
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: Well, the fact you know a bruise is you know,

491
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: hemorrhaging of blood, you know, through the lower layers of

492
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: the skin and of course into the muscles. That would

493
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: indicate to me that if a bruise had formed, that

494
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: her heart is still pumping. The assumption right now is

495
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 2: that she's dead when she goes into the cistern because

496
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: of the metal or wire around her neck. But did

497
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: they just put that on at the last minute while

498
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 2: she was still alive and then thrower down in the

499
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 2: cistern and of course now you have at least an impact.

500
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 2: Don't have an answer to that question, but you know,

501
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: a theory could be developed that she had received a

502
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: blow to her head prior to being strangled. That blow

503
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 2: could have dazed her, maybe render her unconscious, just depending

504
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 2: on you know, how hard that blow would have been.

505
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: And then there really is little resistance from her to

506
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: the strangulation. Now her right wrist is broken, you know,

507
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 2: so is that? You know, it's like, well, where is

508
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 2: that broken at? Is? Is it just dislocated through the

509
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: wrist bones or was her you know, the the forearm bones,

510
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: the radius, the you know ulna, were those broken down

511
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 2: towards the risk that indicates at least a level significant

512
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 2: amount of force, you know, And and did the offenders

513
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: do that or is that a transport injury? I often

514
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: see bodies that have been they're dead, but now they're

515
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 2: being put into vehicles, removed from vehicles, drug across uh

516
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: you know, surfaces like the ground. Those bodies will have

517
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: a lot of a brace of injuries and all sorts

518
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: of surfaces and oftentimes with weird directionalities, you know. So

519
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: I call those transport injuries because especially like with this

520
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: body again, one hundred and fifty pound woman, this body's

521
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: going to be hard to move around because of the

522
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: sheer weight, especially if it's just a single offender. And

523
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: now you have that she's nude, all this exposed skin

524
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: that's going to be drug across rough surfaces, and so

525
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 2: you see that, you know. So that's again part of

526
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: why I like to look at photographs so I can

527
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: start accurately kind of reconstructing, you know, the sequence of

528
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: events fatal injuries versus transport injuries, and start forming opinions

529
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: as to what I think happened.

530
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: Let's talk real quick about time of death. The coroner

531
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: looked at her and said, I think she's been in

532
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: a cistern between four and eight weeks. Oh, I will

533
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: tell you, Paul, we know that she went missing. Once

534
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: we find out who this is in January and we're

535
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,959
Speaker 1: in June. How can you be that far off unless

536
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 1: she was held for however long. But I will tell

537
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 1: you that no obvious signs of sexual assault, and she

538
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: wasn't pregnant.

539
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: Determining time of death is a very approximate science, if

540
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: you will. There's a lot of factors at play in

541
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: this case. She's floating in water, I'm assuming, I mean,

542
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: she's underground. I'm assuming that this water is fairly stable

543
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: in terms of its temperature, but is going to be

544
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: cold relative to the surface temperatures. Being underwater, She's not

545
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: exposed during that time to insect activity in all likelihood,

546
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: nor is there any marine life in the cistern, you know,

547
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: So in essence, she's refrigerated, not frozen, unless this cistern

548
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: would freeze at the wintertime in northern Pennsylvania, you know,

549
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: and that would be part of assessing, you know, what's

550
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: going on. But all of you know, that aspect is

551
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: a huge variable that can really throw off, you know,

552
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: let's say how much decomposition and other factors that pathologists

553
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: could potentially use to estimate time of death. If she's

554
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: in the water for six months, she's not in good shape,

555
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: you know, So that's going to you know, complicate assessing

556
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: you know, some of the aspects to what, you know,

557
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 2: what kinds of injuries she may have. So I didn't

558
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: realize that she had been in the water that long.

559
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: About five months January, mid January to mid to late June.

560
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I do think that the big question. Obviously,

561
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: it's kind of gross to think that the family could

562
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: be drinking the water as this body is sort of

563
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: you know, decomposing in that cistern. Yeah, but she goes

564
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 2: missing back in January. This victim, it's when does she

565
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: go into the cistern? That's going to be the big question.

566
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: And so that's where now assessing the body. If the

567
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: pathologist is saying, what was it four to eight weeks?

568
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 2: Yeah for a time of death, well maybe he's looking

569
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 2: at the you know, the condition of the body isn't

570
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,719
Speaker 2: as bad is what you had expected if had had

571
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 2: been floating in the cistern since January. Is it possible

572
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: that she had been held alive for a period of

573
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: time and then place killed and then place in the cistern.

574
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: Don't know at this point in time, but maybe the

575
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: difference of what the pathologist is saying and why he's

576
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: so far off is because she had been held alive,

577
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: so more information in terms of the circumstances. You know,

578
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: who the victim is when she goes missing. All of

579
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: that has to be kind of assessed within that context

580
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: and within that possibility.

581
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: Well, the victim is complicated, first of all, just to

582
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: get this out of the way, you know, they couldn't

583
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: identify her. There's nothing else in the well. It's just

584
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: her with one glove on, nothing else. They drain the cistern,

585
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: so they bring in some local dentists and they used

586
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: in mental records to discover that it is a woman

587
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: named Edith Ford. She is thirty seven years old and

588
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: she has been missing since January twelfth, so five months earlier.

589
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: She was last seen leaving her mom's house. She had

590
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: dinner there. Her mom is a widow and she was

591
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: very elderly. Edith was one of fourteen kids, but you know,

592
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: five of them had died. Her family was in poverty.

593
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: She was never reported missing. She would work at Atlantic

594
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: City as a waitress. There were rumors, unfounded rumors that

595
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: she was a sex worker when she would go to

596
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: Atlantic City. She also worked at a silk mill in Reading, Pennsylvania.

597
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: And you know, Bangor is about seventy miles from Reading,

598
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: in about one hundred and fifty miles from Atlantic City.

599
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: She was going very long periods of time away from

600
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: her family and I guess they just didn't hear from her.

601
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: So this is why this has taken so long, just

602
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: to discover her, but also you know, for her family

603
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: to essentially say, well, this is the last time we

604
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: saw her. Once they identify her.

605
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: Okay, and where did she live relative to where her

606
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: body was found.

607
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: Edith lived in Bangor, in the town of Bangor, and

608
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: so everything is pretty centralized here, so I don't think

609
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: very far all.

610
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: Right, So that's that gives me some optimism.

611
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: You know.

612
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: Part of this investigation. Edith has been missing since January.

613
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 2: Now it's a matter of basically doing a canvas of

614
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 2: the town, and that could be done through flyers. Of course,

615
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: that's going out and contacting people. It's utilizing the newspaper

616
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 2: to try to determine if anybody saw Edith in town.

617
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: You know, after the family is saying, well she left,

618
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 2: you know, and she would be gone for long periods

619
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 2: of time. Are we able to narrow down, you know,

620
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 2: this window from the time that Edith was last seen

621
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: alive to the time that you know her body was found.

622
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: Do you have any information along those lines?

623
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: Do so? Once the police find out who Edith is,

624
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: they talk to the mom, they find out that Edith

625
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: had been to her mother's house, her sister had made dinner,

626
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: and they point her towards where Edith lives. They go

627
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: and they find love letters from a local man in

628
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: his fifties who is married, and a lot of people

629
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: know that he has been secretly dating I guess not

630
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: so secretly Edith. He is an Italian immigrant. His name

631
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: is Giuseppe Chimo, married, he has a stepchild, and in

632
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: June seventeenth he's brought in for questioning. So he's part

633
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: of her tight circle and they're looking first at him.

634
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: So he is a cheesemaker, and as I said, people

635
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: know that this is a horribly kept secret. Sounds like

636
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: he has a pretty good business. He's described as having

637
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: a substantial dairy operation, and Edith worked for him at

638
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: some point. That's how they know each other. He's described

639
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: as wealthy. Italian immigrants were in Pennsylvania at this time

640
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 1: and accepted it. Sounds like, so this is a prominent

641
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: member of the community. His best friend lives next door

642
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: to the Thomas family where the cistern is, and he

643
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 1: lived there at one point.

644
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: Also, Yeah, so he has at least a geographic connection

645
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 2: roughly a geographic connection to where Edith's body is found.

646
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: During the interview, does he indicate when he last saw Edith?

647
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: Yep. So she has dinner that her sister made at

648
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: her mother's house on the night of January twelfth. She

649
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: met him at a tavern that night and they talked

650
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: for a while. He says, we had some drinks. He said,

651
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: I've got to go check on some cheese, which I

652
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: don't know why. I think that's funny, but he did.

653
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 1: He was a cheesemaker. He leaves. When he comes back

654
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: to see if Edith is still there. She has left

655
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: to the movies with another man, and that is it.

656
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: That's his story. She left. I have no idea what

657
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: happened after that.

658
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: But she's at a tavern. Do the other patrons at

659
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: the tavern? Are they able to track them down and say, yeah,

660
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: they saw Edith with this other man.

661
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: We don't have witnesses who say she left with another man.

662
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: So the problem for the investigators is, you know, Giuseppe

663
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: has some inconsistencies with his story. There are apparently no

664
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: witnesses who see her leave with either Giuseppe or a

665
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: mystery man, so there is sort of nobody is paying

666
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: attention to Edith. She just at some point vanishes. We

667
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: don't know with who, And he just says, I have

668
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 1: no idea what happened.

669
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: And Giuseppe's best friend also has the geographic connection to

670
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: Olga's family and where the sister is found. Was this

671
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 2: best friend interviewed?

672
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: He was, and he was the guy who owned the

673
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: tavern where they were. He was eventually arrested on a

674
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: gambling charge a few weeks after Edith's body was found,

675
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: but they never had enough evidence against him, and he

676
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 1: had not, you know, been somebody who she had been

677
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: kind of consistently involved with. There was another man that

678
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 1: she had dated, but he was in jail. Great ala,

679
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: Why so that was it for suspects. These three guys,

680
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: they kind of dismissed the tavern owner and really focused

681
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 1: in on Giuseppe. Because, let me tell you this little story.

682
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 1: There's a local newspaper who reported on a fight between

683
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: two women that everybody knows was Edith and Giuseppe's wife,

684
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: whose name was Esther. They don't name the women, but

685
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: everybody knows who it was. In the newspaper. I don't

686
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: know why they just didn't print their names, but they

687
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 1: weren't arrested. There was a physical fight between these two people,

688
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: and they called it between a man, a fight between

689
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: a man's wife and his mistress. The wronged wife hit

690
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: the other woman with a milk bottle and threatened quote

691
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: additional harm. So we don't know much more about that

692
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: information except that we are connecting it to these two women.

693
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: So now you have a scorned wife to throw into

694
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: the mix, hauling one hundred and fifty pound woman and

695
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: one hundred pound stone and tossing it into a cistern.

696
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: First, you know, when did this fight occur relative to

697
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: Edith going missing? And second, what did Eser say during

698
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 2: her interview?

699
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 1: Okay, it looks like this fight happened the year before

700
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: her murder. But there were a lot of rumors that

701
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: the wife, Esther and her son, who was Giuseppe's step son,

702
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: had confessed to the murder. This is newspapers reporting it

703
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: and people around town because of this fight that was reported,

704
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: and the police interviewed Esther and the step son and

705
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: nothing came of it. They just said, we don't think

706
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: that they were involved at all. The only thing I

707
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: could say is that the police didn't take it seriously.

708
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: They dismissed. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just

709
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: means they didn't see any kind of evidence and they

710
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: focused on the husband.

711
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: So this is, as we discussed at the top of

712
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: this episode, one of the primary motives of why people

713
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: get killed is this lover's triangle. Just because Esther and

714
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 2: Edith got into a physical fight prior to Edith going missing,

715
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: that does not necessarily mean that Esser would be the

716
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 2: one that would have physically harmed Edith. But the dynamics

717
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: of this relationship between Edith and Giuseppe and Esser after

718
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: that physical fight probably changed significantly. Giuseppe's you know, his

719
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: marriage is probably not good, and there may have been

720
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: a deterioration in the relationship between Giuseppe and Edith, where

721
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: now he's thinking I've got to end of this relationship.

722
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 2: He places himself with Edith. He's the last one to

723
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: see her alive before she goes missing. He has general

724
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 2: knowledge of the location where Edith's body was found. He

725
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,959
Speaker 2: also has a friend who is at the tavern owns

726
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: the tavern where Edith was per him last scene alive.

727
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: Of course, you've got this mystery man that he's saying

728
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: that Edith went to the movies with. However, there's several

729
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: factors that seem to be pointing at Giuseppe. And this

730
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: is where start taking a look at Edith and the

731
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: stone and the wire and how she's being disposed. Are

732
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 2: we dealing with more than one offender? I think from

733
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: an investigative aspect, is taking a look at the best friend.

734
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: Is he an accomplice? He gets arrested two weeks after

735
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: Edith's body is found. Now, it's an unrelated charge, but

736
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 2: that's something that investigators can leverage in order to get information.

737
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: You put jeopardy on somebody like that, we're going to

738
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: charge you with the maximum for this criminal charge. Plus,

739
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 2: if we find out that you helped either in the

740
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 2: homicide of Edith and or the disposal of the body,

741
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 2: we're going to charge you with this. Unless you cooperate

742
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: with us. You make him nervous, you make him go.

743
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: Oh.

744
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: Now, even though Giuseppe's my friend, I don't want to

745
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 2: go to prison. It doesn't sound like the investigators did

746
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 2: that in this case.

747
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they really dropped the ball here. It

748
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like the tavern owner whose name was al

749
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: Shook was ever interrogated about this. Let me give you

750
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: a little bit more information about Giuseppe's night, what he

751
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: says happened. He said that, you know, he went to

752
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: go check on his cheese, and when he came back,

753
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: she was gone to the movies, is what he had

754
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: been told. He said that when the movie was over,

755
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: he went over to the movie house. It was probably

756
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: the only one, and he said that he watched her

757
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: come out with another man, and they got into a

758
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: car with new jersey plates and they took off. Giuseppe

759
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 1: went back to the tavern and he stayed until about midnight,

760
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: and that was about it. He said that they went,

761
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: you know, and drank some beer somewhere else. But I

762
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 1: will say this, this is an interesting little note. You

763
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: and I talked about whether or not she had been

764
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: held because this time of death was so different, five

765
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: months versus four to six weeks. This is where the

766
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 1: nice thing about stomach contents comes in. The police said

767
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: to her sister, hey, what did you cook for her

768
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: that night? And she said that she had made pickles

769
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: and some liver and some potatoes, and that's what they

770
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: found in her stomach. So all that time she had

771
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: been dead. So it sounds like that's when she died.

772
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: Was that night that she went missing?

773
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that last meal is pretty gross. Don't be judging

774
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: pickles and liver.

775
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: Although let me give you a better idea of that.

776
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: I love learning about food. Liver, sausage, fried potatoes, pickles,

777
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: bread and butter. And that's what shows up in her

778
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: stomach contents. So that's how we know she wasn't held.

779
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: Okay, but you know this is this is an interesting

780
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 2: addition to Ja Seppy's story. You know, so he comes

781
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: back to the tavern, Edith and other man have left

782
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: and gone to the movies. He tracks down, you know

783
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: where they went to the movies and sees Edith leave

784
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: with another man. Per his statement, Now here's another factor

785
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: in terms of motive. You think that there would be jealousy.

786
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: He's been having an affair with Edith. He went out

787
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: to the tavern to have drinks with Edith. Maybe he

788
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: thought that that night was going to go differently. And

789
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 2: when he bails to go check on his cheese, Edith

790
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: gets bored and she finds another man to spend the

791
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: evening with. So you know, now again this is where

792
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 2: aspects of him just keeps adding up. I'm kind of curious.

793
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 2: As a cheesemaker. You know this cheese factory. Was this

794
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: metal wire that was found around Edith's body? Was there

795
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 2: a source of it at his cheese factory?

796
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like investigators found. That doesn't mean there wasn't,

797
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,919
Speaker 1: because now I kind of mistrust investigators here. That is it.

798
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: They are at a dead end. They cannot figure out

799
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: anything else. I know, this is very frustrating. I'm not

800
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: sure we've encountered investigators who have ever done less than this.

801
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: I mean, this is not seem like a lot. Giseppe,

802
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: he is brought in for questioning and he says, listen,

803
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: I'm a cheater, but I'm not a murderer. And that's it.

804
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I most certainly can't pin EDI's

805
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: homicide on Giuseppe with the information we have, right, but

806
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: he's in play as a suspect. This man that Giuseppe

807
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: claims he saw with Edith and get into the car

808
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 2: after the movie theater would be in play if they

809
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: would have been able to identify the man. You know.

810
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 2: Part of assessing this case is the condition of Edith's body.

811
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: She's found completely nude. I'm assuming they never found her clothes,

812
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: and the place placement of this glove on one of

813
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: her hands, even though they say there's no signs of

814
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 2: sexual assault, and we've discussed this before, doesn't mean that

815
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: sexual assault did not occur. So, you know, any time

816
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 2: a woman's body is found nude, that generally is going

817
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: to suggest that maybe there had been some sort of

818
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 2: sexual motive to the crime. Secondly, the placement of the

819
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 2: glove on the hand, that's very unusual. I'm assuming this

820
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 2: is not Edith's glove. This is not something that she

821
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: wore that the offender just never took off. You brought

822
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: up this research that this other was it an author

823
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: had done on this case?

824
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: Yes?

825
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, about this culture of you know, victims who were

826
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 2: killed by this black glove society or whatever you called them,

827
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,439
Speaker 2: they would put a single glove on the killer's hand.

828
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: I'm assuming that this was something that was known to

829
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 2: the general public at some level and not just within

830
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 2: law enforcement. So there's two interpretations I have about the

831
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 2: glove on Edith's hands. One, let's say this is a

832
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: predatory crime and that the placement of the glove on

833
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: the hand was maybe like a taunt or it was

834
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: something that was significant to the fantasy of the predator.

835
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 2: But this very unusual black glove society that's operating in

836
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 2: the area suggests to me the more likely scenario is

837
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 2: that whoever killed Edith knew about this group and was

838
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 2: trying to stage Edith's death to make it look like

839
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: this group had killed her. If this is the case,

840
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 2: and you have that type of staging, that's because the

841
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 2: offender knows that the investigation is going to look at him,

842
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: and now he's misdirecting the investigation by utilizing this glove

843
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 2: and trying to throw it over onto this black glove society.

844
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 2: He just happens to use a blue glove. He doesn't

845
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 2: have access to a black glover or whatever it is.

846
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: You know that staging aspect is behaviorally hugely significant, and

847
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: you take a look at who likely would be focused

848
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 2: in on the investigation, it's somebody close to Edith, and

849
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: Giuseppe checks that box too. So the totality of the

850
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 2: circumstances right now, I think Giuseppe is what I would

851
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 2: consider a prime suspect. Sounds like the original investigators thought

852
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: that as well. They just didn't from an investigator standpoint.

853
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 2: From witnesses from forensics just did not have enough to

854
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: generate a level of probable cause where now there is

855
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 2: confidence that he was truly the killer. I don't have confidence.

856
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 2: I just go I'm I balling Giuseppe in Edith's homicide.

857
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: Well, one really weird note that I just read about

858
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: was that there were a couple of letters that went

859
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: out before her body was discovered, but after she was murdered,

860
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: and they were purported to be from Edith. One went

861
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: to her brother that I went to Florida. I'll see

862
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: you later. Everything is fine. That's why nobody thought anything

863
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: of this, because she was kind of a roamer. So

864
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: it turns out that Giuseppe admitted that he asked a

865
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: woman to write this in her best woman handwriting as

866
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: if she's Edith, addressed to Giuseppe, her boyfriend who's married.

867
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 1: Dear sweetheart, I'm very sorry for what I have done

868
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: and can't write so well, I'm going away to Florida

869
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,479
Speaker 1: and we'll stay there. And then she says, I signed

870
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: the name Edith. This woman. I don't know what she

871
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: was thinking by doing this, and then finding out later

872
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: this woman went missing, and the police of course said

873
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: what the hell, and he said, Well, the guys at

874
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: the tavern were gonna rib me for Edith taking off

875
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: and leaving. So I had this woman write these letters

876
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: when I was drunk to try to explain that she

877
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: wasn't dumping me for the guy at the movies. Instead,

878
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 1: she you know, was going off to start a new life.

879
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 1: It still wasn't enough for the police. So yeah, jist,

880
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, this guy, but he gets away

881
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 1: scot free.

882
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: I'm interpreting. I can't write so well. Well, her handwriting

883
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: is different to the Edith, and so there's that built

884
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 2: in excuse that her handwriting. Probably if mom were to

885
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 2: take a look at these letters, it should go that

886
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: doesn't look like Edith's handwriting. Yeah, as I said Jiusseppe,

887
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 2: who knows exactly why was this jealousy because he truly

888
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 2: saw Edith with this other man? Or was he trying

889
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 2: to preserve his marriage or trying to preserve his reputation?

890
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 2: It was Edith going to you know, threaten. Is this

891
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: a time in which she could have sued him over

892
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 2: the what did you call it? You've talked about that

893
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 2: in the past.

894
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: Oh, the heartbalm, Yes, I think so.

895
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so there's I think there's several different

896
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 2: motives that Giuseppe had, and then everything else is adding up.

897
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: It's just too bad that they couldn't make a case

898
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 2: on him at that time. I bet there would have

899
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: been a prosecutor that would have filed this case and prosecuted.

900
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: I think there's enough potentially there. It all is dependent

901
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: upon on that time frame and what you know, prosecutors

902
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: felt comfortable with that they whether or not they could

903
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 2: prove the case to you know, a twelve member jury.

904
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 2: But right now, you know, just with what I know,

905
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 2: if I'm sitting on the jury, I'd go it's him.

906
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: So really, the conclusion of this is nothing happens with Giuseppe.

907
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: His wife dies in nineteen forty one, this is six

908
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,919
Speaker 1: years after the murder of Edith, he remarries, and then

909
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: he ends up living until nineteen sixty eight. Oh wow,

910
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: for a very long time. Nothing is reportedly happening with

911
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: him that we know of. So there you go. I

912
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 1: think somebody you and I are both pretty certain was

913
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: responsible for her murder has gotten away with it and

914
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 1: probably has gone on and lived a just a fine life.

915
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: I mean, unreal. So this is one of the frustrating

916
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: things about the time period. We have investigators in the

917
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds that nail the right people, and regardless of

918
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: what you think about their punishments, are punished. The right

919
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,800
Speaker 1: people are punished. And then there are times in nineteen

920
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: thirty five where I think, while this probably could have

921
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: advanced differently with just a different investigator or something, I'm

922
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: disappointed in this case because I think that there were

923
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 1: some things that were missing. But there you go. I mean,

924
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,399
Speaker 1: he was not that smart, but he did do some

925
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: stuff that it sounds like got him out of this.

926
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: You know, part of the aspect of law enforcement here

927
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 2: in the United States is, you know, there's I believe

928
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 2: it's over fourteen thousand different law enforcement agencies, and there's

929
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 2: so many that's such a spread of experience and expertise.

930
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 2: You know, Banger is a town today that has a

931
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 2: population base of you know, it looks like over roughly

932
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 2: fifty two hundred people. What was the experience and the

933
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: expertise of the investigators that looked into this case. I

934
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 2: bet there was probably a chance that they had never

935
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 2: looked worked a homicide case before. Yeah, you know, so

936
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: this if this case had occurred in nineteen thirty five

937
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 2: in maybe a larger jurisdiction that had experienced investigators, knew

938
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 2: how to interview, knew how to do the follow up

939
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 2: on at the time, the type of physical evidence they

940
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: needed to look for, like going to the Geese factory

941
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 2: and looking for the metal wire source metal wire there.

942
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 2: I think that a case would have been made against

943
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 2: Giuseppe and probably relatively easily.

944
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: Well, my eyes need to rest now, they're tired. They're

945
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,760
Speaker 1: tired from all of us reading through. This was an interesting,

946
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: very frustrating case. But there are some things that we

947
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: covered that I'm always interested in recovering bodies from water

948
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,760
Speaker 1: time of death. I'm always fascinated about how weather accelerates

949
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,919
Speaker 1: decomposition or slows it down. How do we figure this out?

950
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 1: How did they figure things out in the nineteen thirties.

951
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 1: So this was a good case for you. I enjoyed it.

952
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 2: There was actually a lot to work with in terms

953
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 2: of okay, because of the circumstance. Angel evidence, coupled with

954
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: some of the aspects with how Edith's body was disposed of,

955
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 2: gives great insight into how the investigation can be conducted

956
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 2: and proceed And then information that you ultimately told me

957
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 2: about Giuseppe. You know that that was It was just

958
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: kind of great to be able to put two and

959
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 2: two together, and at least I feel confident in my

960
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 2: conclusion in this particular case. There's been other cases I

961
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,359
Speaker 2: haven't but this one, even though they didn't make an

962
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: arrest and get a conviction, I'm I am confident that

963
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 2: as we discuss this that we came to the right conclusion.

964
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: I agree, and we will have another probably more ambiguous,

965
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 1: less conclusively drawn. I don't even know what the right

966
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: phrase is. I don't know if we're going to have

967
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: a case closed next week, but we'll try so. I

968
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: will see you.

969
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 2: Very soon, all right, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you, Paul,

970
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 2: Thank you Kate.

971
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

972
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com, slash Buried

973
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

974
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,280
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

975
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

976
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

977
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

978
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

979
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

980
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: ary Bones.

981
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

982
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

983
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now

984
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

985
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: cold cases is also available now