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Speaker 1: Ruby.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz. What is the world?

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Speaker 3: I'm Marco Went and this This is Amazing Wildlife, a

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Speaker 3: podcast where we cover unique stories of wildlife from around

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Speaker 3: the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast is

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Speaker 3: in production with iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego Zoo

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Speaker 3: Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation.

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Speaker 2: Organization which oversees this beautiful.

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Speaker 3: Place, the San Diego Zoo where we are now and

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Speaker 3: the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.

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Speaker 1: You know, every time you do that monel like my friend.

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Speaker 4: Which it's an intro, but you know, I tend to

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Speaker 4: like get in sync with our surrounding area. Guess where

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Speaker 4: we're here at the zoo again. There's a robin flying

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Speaker 4: behind you. There is a red shild or hawk cruising around.

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Speaker 3: We're lucky that we get to go on locations of

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Speaker 3: this podcast. I know a lot of podcasts are in

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Speaker 3: studio and sound control and all that, but I think

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Speaker 3: we're lucky we get to places.

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Speaker 4: And I was remembering, like we were talking about and

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Speaker 4: Panda last and we were here in the area at

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Speaker 4: the zoo right, like we learned a lot of really

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Speaker 4: cool things and it made me think of like even

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Speaker 4: just like bears in general and where bears live, and

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Speaker 4: even like some people live really close to maybe like

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Speaker 4: a grizzly or a polar air.

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Speaker 3: It's actually a big part of the conservation world that

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Speaker 3: we have. Yeah, there's humans. They're a big part of

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Speaker 3: why we need that conservation yea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: I mean even being a native San Diego you know,

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Speaker 4: I know they're mountain lying in the area, but it's

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Speaker 4: something we have to think about. And you know, while

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Speaker 4: we were talking about it, we brought this wonderful journal, right.

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Speaker 2: So for those who.

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Speaker 3: Video yet, we brought our scenes a wildlife journal, a

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Speaker 3: wildfe Lions Journal. Excuse me, Yeah, that came out in

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Speaker 3: July and August partly only dropped mine.

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Speaker 1: Sorry mind so pristine and beautiful.

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Speaker 4: But even in the cover, man, I means like there's

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Speaker 4: a beautiful species right here, like a leopard, right and

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Speaker 4: then in the middle here there's a really cool title,

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Speaker 4: which I want to get props at Peggy, who actually

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Speaker 4: I learned later came out with the title and we

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Speaker 4: can talk about a little more. But it's a common ground, right,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of really interesting facts and stories about

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Speaker 4: community and wildlife.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's two articles that I want to make sure

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Speaker 3: you know. And this is the benefit of being a

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Speaker 3: member of the San Diego Zoo and the Safari Park

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Speaker 3: is not only do you get the free entrance with

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Speaker 3: every visit and guests get all sorts of extra things

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Speaker 3: that way too, but you get these great stories that

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Speaker 3: come in and talk a lot about the inside of

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Speaker 3: what we do as an organization. And there's one article

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Speaker 3: in here about the jaguar and human conflicts that occur

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Speaker 3: in South and Central America and the work being done

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Speaker 3: to help mitigate that, to help change that from being

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Speaker 3: a conflict to be living in coexistence. And then the

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Speaker 3: other one you mentioned, common Ground, of course, which is

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Speaker 3: about all the elephants there in Kenya and work being

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Speaker 3: done to find common ground for humans and elephants to

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Speaker 3: live together there.

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Speaker 1: I know, I mean, I think we should talk about

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Speaker 1: it more.

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Speaker 2: I think we should.

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Speaker 3: But instead of you and I just talking about the articles,

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Speaker 3: why don't we ask the experts that we have with Oh, I.

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Speaker 1: Know, we got the experts. Hey, good morning, experts.

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Speaker 6: Good morning extnie y, good morning.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience.

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Speaker 3: Let them know who you are and what your title

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Speaker 3: is here with this organization.

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Speaker 7: I'm doctor Christy Rupert.

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Speaker 5: I am an Associate Director of Community Engagement on our

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Speaker 5: Conservation Science where on Life Health team, I get to

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Speaker 5: work on the human dimensions of conservation, so understanding how

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Speaker 5: people interact with wildlife, how they affect by wildlife conservation,

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Speaker 5: and how our conservation hubs can support human wildlife coexistence

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Speaker 5: around the globe.

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Speaker 2: This is a small job, that's awesome.

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Speaker 8: And I'm doctor Schiffer Goldenberg and I'm a scientist also

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Speaker 8: within our Conservation Science and Wildlife Health department, and I

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Speaker 8: work mostly in ecological fields and mostly on megafauna, so

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Speaker 8: large animals that he plants.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, that would be.

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Speaker 5: Here.

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Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough.

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Speaker 4: I mean there was a lot to talk about. Can

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Speaker 4: you guys highlight a little like what's succor this article

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Speaker 4: for you? What impressed you so much about it?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? Sure, so I can start.

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Speaker 8: I think part of a collaboration with social science is

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Speaker 8: really understanding how important those long term relationships are and

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Speaker 8: the process of conversation about what the problem is and

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Speaker 8: what the context is for that conflict and coexistence. And

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Speaker 8: this work in particular grew out of human leopard coexistence

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Speaker 8: work that Kirsty and her colleagues have been leading for

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Speaker 8: many years, and it was that collaboration that really allowed

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Speaker 8: us to expand into this space of human elephant code systems.

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Speaker 5: And part of the reason the conversation really emerged to

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Speaker 5: the top is reflective of broader trends and patterns in Kenya,

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Speaker 5: where a lot of our work is centered. The challenges

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Speaker 5: to elephant populations historically have revolved around ivory poaching, so

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Speaker 5: in global demand for ivory products, and over the last

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Speaker 5: ten or so years, Kenya and many other countries have

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Speaker 5: really stemmed ivory poaching as the main pressure on elephant populations.

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Speaker 5: That is a major success for conservation and thinking about

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Speaker 5: overall populations. Though the rates that elephants are illegally killed

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Speaker 5: has actually shifted more so over to conflicts with people

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Speaker 5: and so in Kenya, trying to better understand human elephant

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Speaker 5: conflict as a challenge to people and elephants has helped

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Speaker 5: kind of emerge this as a focus for us in

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Speaker 5: our work.

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Speaker 3: So I want to ask real quick so we can

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Speaker 3: kind of set the common ground for our audience, what

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Speaker 3: are the actual conflicts someone listening to this, who might

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Speaker 3: live in, whether it's rural Middle America or a big

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Speaker 3: city like San Diego or Los Angeles or somewhere like that,

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Speaker 3: may not really have a clear picture as to what

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Speaker 3: is human elephant conflict, what conflict could possibly exist, because

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that's a clearer image as to

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Speaker 3: how people might have to coexist with them in Kenya.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so what are some of the problems.

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Speaker 8: It's a really great question. And so if people have

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Speaker 8: heard about human elephant conflict, they've probably heard about crop reading,

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Speaker 8: which is elephants going into agricultural fields and just eating

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Speaker 8: their fill and trampling crops in the process. That's not

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Speaker 8: as much of an issue in the area where we

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Speaker 8: work in northern Kenya because it tends to be a

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Speaker 8: very dry area where it's not supportive of very large

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Speaker 8: scale agriculture. So we do see some crop reading, and

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Speaker 8: we do see some you know, destruction of kitchen gardens,

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Speaker 8: but we also see a lot of conflict emerging in

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Speaker 8: other cases, some cases where trees are being ripped down

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Speaker 8: by elephants when they switch to brows in the dry season,

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Speaker 8: going after water resources that are shared, and then you know,

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Speaker 8: things sort of change in space and time where people

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Speaker 8: are walking to community resources like a school or a

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Speaker 8: clinic and they're bumping into elephants and it escalates from there.

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Speaker 8: And so those are some of the issues that we

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Speaker 8: see and that we hear about from this community.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like it's so vary too.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm a TikTok scarlier you guys, And sometimes

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Speaker 4: I get on some videos where I see a video

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Speaker 4: of maybe a rhino that went into a suburban area

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Speaker 4: and for good reason, the mother is very worried about

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Speaker 4: her child. And I imagine it's extremely specific and nuanced.

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Speaker 4: Even just Africa alone, I would imagine different communities where

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Speaker 4: the north or south and we have to listen, right,

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Speaker 4: we have to work with those communities. Can you talk

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Speaker 4: a little bit more about that, like how do we

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Speaker 4: as the Alliance help out those communities in those kind

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Speaker 4: of scenarios.

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Speaker 5: I think this relates to something Triffer is just touching on,

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Speaker 5: which is that the conflicts are varied. Yeah, conflicts are

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Speaker 5: not singular and they're not static. And so when we

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Speaker 5: approached engaging with these communities in Northern Kenya, a lot

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Speaker 5: of it was about understanding the diversity of interactions and challenges,

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Speaker 5: as well as priorities for coexistence where people see elephants

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Speaker 5: and where the interactions are not negative so that can

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Speaker 5: be maintained and supported. And really it was about prioritization too,

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Speaker 5: so we tried to be open and honest and that

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Speaker 5: conflict is never going to be eliminated, is never going

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Speaker 5: to be zero. These conflicts are going to fluctuate as

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Speaker 5: conditions change over time, and so part of the process

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Speaker 5: was developing one that was a trusted and transparent process

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Speaker 5: to rate and prioritize what types of conflicts communities wanted

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Speaker 5: to address first. And we did this by pulling information

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Speaker 5: from different channels, like said for scientists, we want information

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Speaker 5: to guide some of these decisions. Data data that's generated

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Speaker 5: by these community members, and I think that's really important

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Speaker 5: because the decision making around what's selected to pursue, having

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Speaker 5: that come from voices within the community at different levels,

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Speaker 5: so not just people informal power, but pulling those different

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Speaker 5: perspectives to understand as a community what to approach first

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Speaker 5: was really important to us. So we started with mapping

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Speaker 5: exercises to understand again spatially, where people are really dependent

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Speaker 5: on natural resources like water sources, or grazing blocks for

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Speaker 5: their livestock. We did a number of focus group discussions

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Speaker 5: and that really illuminated some of the seasonal aspects of

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Speaker 5: human elephant interactions that were really pertinent to our decision

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Speaker 5: making process. And then also a representative survey, and that

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Speaker 5: was to get at some of the voices within the

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Speaker 5: community that maybe aren't always at the community meetings, So

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Speaker 5: how do you get a representative sample from these areas?

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Speaker 5: That helped us rate and prioritize if we can't address everything,

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Speaker 5: what's most important to address first. And this helped us

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Speaker 5: identify human safety, particularly for children walking to school, as

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Speaker 5: something community members certainly wanted to address first.

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Speaker 1: I love that.

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Speaker 4: I mean specifically on the really hit home for me

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Speaker 4: was those people who can't go to those certain meetings

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Speaker 4: as an example, get that data, ranchers. I'm thinking out

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Speaker 4: in the back of the country and there are opinions matter.

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Speaker 1: Greatly as well these scenario.

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Speaker 4: So that's really great that you guys are trying to

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Speaker 4: invest in all manners of community in different walks of life.

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Speaker 1: So that's really cool.

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Speaker 7: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 5: It was important to us as well to gather that

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Speaker 5: information before any of these strategies started, so we can

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Speaker 5: monitor that over time, learn what's working what's not, so

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Speaker 5: that our conservation strategies could be adjusted.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you had mentioned that it'll never go to zero,

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Speaker 3: that there's always going to be fluctuations of different things

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Speaker 3: going on in the environment. Populations of course as well,

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Speaker 3: can change things. There's so many variables. But of course

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Speaker 3: the goal is to mitigate it as much as possible,

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Speaker 3: and it being of course the conflict between the elephants

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Speaker 3: and the people.

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Speaker 2: When it comes to doing this, and we've talked.

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Speaker 3: About this for in fact, they just came up in

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Speaker 3: pandas that conservation isn't just to go in and solve

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Speaker 3: the riddle and you're done.

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Speaker 2: It is a long game. It's a long process.

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Speaker 3: When you look at the riddle of elephant human conflict,

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Speaker 3: knowing it's going to be a long game, what are

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Speaker 3: some of the more important things you look at going

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Speaker 3: into that. We've talked about really addressing things within the community,

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Speaker 3: listening to them, leaning on their knowledge and expertise of

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Speaker 3: the environment and the weather patterns and the elephants and

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Speaker 3: all that.

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Speaker 2: But for this long game of mitigating.

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Speaker 3: This, what's probably some of the more important things you

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Speaker 3: guys have come across so far.

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Speaker 8: That's a really great question. I think you touched on it.

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Speaker 8: With a complexity. There is so much complexity involved with

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Speaker 8: human elephant conflict for a number of reasons. Elephants, as

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Speaker 8: we know, are extremely smart animals. They are problem solvers

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Speaker 8: and they figure out a bluff. And so what we

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Speaker 8: know with mitigation methods is that they will find the

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Speaker 8: weak points or they will understand when it's actually not

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Speaker 8: that risky to do what they're trying to tell you.

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Speaker 8: So and of course they're driven to these great resources.

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Speaker 8: Elephants they have these spatial maps in their head. They

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Speaker 8: know where they're going, they know when those resources are ripe,

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Speaker 8: whether it's accia pods on trees or you know, water

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Speaker 8: sources that are ephemeral, and so that's a piece of

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Speaker 8: the complexity. Another piece of the complexity is that the

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Speaker 8: seasonal dynamics of the place change all the time, and

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Speaker 8: so the levels of conflict and the distribution of conflict changes.

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Speaker 8: And then there are other degrees of come complexity, including

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Speaker 8: whether a community is willing to buy into a particular intervention,

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Speaker 8: whether there are barriers for entry with that intervention, financial sustainability,

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Speaker 8: of the method that kind of thing, and so Kirsty

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Speaker 8: touched on this a bit where she spoke about level

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Speaker 8: setting at the beginning and understanding what we're going to

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Speaker 8: be able to do and what we're not going to

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Speaker 8: be able to do, and so prioritizing and understanding that

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Speaker 8: there's always going to be some degree of conflict, but

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Speaker 8: where can we prioritize And then to the piece about adaptability.

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Speaker 8: I think it's really important to understand that because you

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Speaker 8: need a suite of tools and you need the adaptability

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Speaker 8: piece within a community. We have really focused effort on

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Speaker 8: training for community members who are dealing with conflict so

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Speaker 8: that people actually are able.

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Speaker 6: To go and you know, not reinvent the wheel.

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Speaker 8: There are resources available, there are organizations who are leading trainings,

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Speaker 8: and so the last couple of years or so, we've

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Speaker 8: been facilitating a lot of those exchanges so that there

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Speaker 8: are people embedded within the community who can adapt as

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Speaker 8: the conflicts change well.

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Speaker 3: And that gives them a sense of ownership too. It's

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Speaker 3: not just you walking in the same Okay, this is

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Speaker 3: what you need to do. I'm going to go back

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Speaker 3: home now. I'll be back in a few months to

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Speaker 3: check on you.

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Speaker 1: Guys.

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Speaker 3: But when you do the training and there's other organizations

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Speaker 3: that are involved. The partnerships that we have with other

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Speaker 3: organizations are so important. But then giving ownership to of

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Speaker 3: the individuals who live there, who are dealing with the

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Speaker 3: conflict on a daily basis to then empower them to

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Speaker 3: teach others as well. Really is that sense of ownership

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Speaker 3: where you can go back and check up on them,

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Speaker 3: but you're not needed there every single day.

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Speaker 4: I would imagine a little more inclined to you know,

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Speaker 4: I definitely know that guy from the other side of

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Speaker 4: the valley, but these I don't know about the es

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Speaker 4: day from the alliance because that could be something that

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Speaker 4: you have to contend with. I would imagine sometimes in

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Speaker 4: certain communities, wouldn't you say?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this brings up a point that we always like

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Speaker 5: to highlight, which is the incredible team on the ground

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Speaker 5: that we work with.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so I wish he.

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Speaker 5: Was sitting next to me, our Human Round Life Code

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Speaker 5: Existence coordinator and Kenny his name is Ambrose, led to Luai.

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Speaker 2: Shout out to Ambrose.

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Speaker 5: Ambrose, and he is helping to manage this group of

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Speaker 5: community conservation assistants that are going down to learn from

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Speaker 5: save yellowpant since Southern Kenya about the human elephant coexistence

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Speaker 5: toolbox and the point about ownership, I think that goes

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Speaker 5: part and parcel with leadership within these communities and different

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Speaker 5: roles and opportunities. Something we've learned from exploring this elephant

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Speaker 5: coexistence work is that there are different types of knowledge

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Speaker 5: and experience that can have a role in.

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Speaker 7: Any collective strategy.

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Speaker 5: So someone perhaps is formally trained in the toolbox and

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Speaker 5: they can lead trainings about say, reading elephant behavior, and

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Speaker 5: then in addition, they can invite or have an elder

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Speaker 5: from the community to share about their wisdom that they've

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Speaker 5: developed through the course of their life living with elephants.

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Speaker 5: A key part of our process has been sharing results

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Speaker 5: from the different streams of information that we've been gathering

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Speaker 5: so that any decision making is collective. And I always

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Speaker 5: remember sitting in Lasso Lodge next to Ambrose and next

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Speaker 5: to our other colleague, LExEN, and one of the elders said,

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Speaker 5: I definitely want there to be education days where you're

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Speaker 5: sharing about this toolbox. I want to be there and

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Speaker 5: share what I know too, and that wisdom piece I

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Speaker 5: think is really important for this elephant work. We did

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Speaker 5: ask those questions and some of the surveys about what

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Speaker 5: do you already do? And that is really important to

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Speaker 5: understand also as we're evaluating any strategies and interventions, because

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Speaker 5: it's not a clean slate, this is not a static

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Speaker 5: laboratory setting, so understanding what people are already doing and

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Speaker 5: how well they think those strategies work is an important

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Speaker 5: component of this as well.

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Speaker 2: So I want to ask.

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Speaker 3: Both of you mentioned a couple of times the toolbox,

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Speaker 3: and I know in context what you mean, but for

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Speaker 3: our audience who may be guessing or trying to understand

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Speaker 3: what that means, what is the toolbox?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 4: Not a literal one exactly.

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Speaker 6: So it's a book.

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Speaker 8: It's essentially a manual that our colleagues that Save the

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Speaker 8: Elephants put together, which is a collection of all the

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Speaker 8: different mitigation strategies that people have used.

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Speaker 6: And the different ways that they work.

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Speaker 8: And as well, it's really important it's sort of the

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Speaker 8: trade off of labor and costs that's involved, and so

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Speaker 8: obviously not every method is going to work in every community,

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Speaker 8: and so it allows people to really evaluate what might

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Speaker 8: work in their communities, what they're already doing, and so

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Speaker 8: they have trainings along with that manual, and they have

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Speaker 8: it published in many languages at this point, and they're always

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Speaker 8: updating it so visual.

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Speaker 7: It's illustrations are gorgeous, and it is available online.

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Speaker 5: So anyone listening to this podcast our members can search

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Speaker 5: the Human Elephant Coexistence Toolbox and find the website that

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Speaker 5: Save the Elephants manages and updates regularly with different languages,

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Speaker 5: and as the evidence base around coexistence evolves and develops.

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Speaker 5: I think that's an important aspect too. Is part of

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Speaker 5: the toolbox development was a call for information about how

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Speaker 5: well these strategies work, so that could be refined over

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Speaker 5: time as well.

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Speaker 4: I'm curiously when you talked about methods that were successful

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Speaker 4: and we're not successful for listeners who have no idea

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Speaker 4: what's going on out there with elephants in different communities,

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Speaker 4: could you give me like a couple examples, maybe one

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Speaker 4: a little more rule and maybe one a little more urban,

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Speaker 4: if you can think of a certain different situations you

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Speaker 4: know or not, just whatever pops up in your head.

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Speaker 4: You know, some of the nuances of elephant and human

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Speaker 4: interactions and conflicts.

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Speaker 7: That have fences high. What do you want?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and actually the one that's a good one because

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Speaker 4: actually there's a really cool picture and I mean I

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Speaker 4: can describe a little bit, but it's a picture.

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Speaker 1: Actually, you guys describe this picture? What am I looking

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Speaker 1: at right here?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is a photo that's in the common

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Speaker 5: Ground article within the Sez tw a journal I got

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Speaker 5: to take this photo actually, but yeah, during.

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Speaker 7: A visit, yeah, thank you. During a visit from or

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Speaker 7: for Chewy Mamas.

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Speaker 5: They were being hosted by one of the women's groups

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Speaker 5: that say the Elephants work at called Loam Beni. So

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Speaker 5: they were at the women's center that's next to Save

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Speaker 5: the Elephants camp in Savo or in the Voi Savo

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Speaker 5: area of Kenya, and one of the Save the Elephants

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Speaker 5: staff members is describing a beehive fence to these Chewy Mamas.

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Speaker 5: Be High fences are an incredible innovation that work in

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Speaker 5: that the the beehives are set up around a fixed boundaries,

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Speaker 5: such as around a farm, and there's wire between each

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Speaker 5: of those bee hives, and so the beehives will shake

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Speaker 5: if something touches them like an elephant or in the wind,

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Speaker 5: and be highs and the sound would invoke a few

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Speaker 5: response from elephants. And so that would keep elephants further

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Speaker 5: away from the farm Shiffra, Is that right?

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Speaker 8: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think this is an incredible innovation. There

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Speaker 5: are some really important considerations though. One is that there's

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Speaker 5: heavy initial cost investment and so it's not a viable

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Speaker 5: option for some household owners that are more resource constrained.

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Speaker 5: So there's a heavy initial cost investment. And then a

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Speaker 5: really important aspect is that bees require water sources nearby

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Speaker 5: and so yeah, so you need bees within those boxes

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Speaker 5: for it to be an effective fence tool. And so

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Speaker 5: in drought times, which is a natural but unfortunately exacerbated

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Speaker 5: aspect of conditions in Kenya giving climate related drought impacts,

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Speaker 5: if the bees aren't there, then the fence isn't going

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Speaker 5: to work, right, Yeah. So I think that it's incredible

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Speaker 5: to look at where these beehive fences work because it's

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Speaker 5: also producing a product that someone can sell for an

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Speaker 5: additional income stream.

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Speaker 7: But I think the really important.

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Speaker 5: Place for us to highlight here is that the behigh

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Speaker 5: fences are going to be fixed spatially.

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Speaker 7: It's going to be around something like a crop.

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Speaker 5: And where we work in northern Kenya, the conflicts are

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Speaker 5: not fixed spatially. They are around resource access and use,

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Speaker 5: looking for grasslands, looking for water, walking to school, walking

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Speaker 5: to a clinic, and so something like a beehiveh fence

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Speaker 5: isn't going to be a match for some of the

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Speaker 5: pastoralist communities that we work in, right, and just real quick,

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Speaker 5: pastoral community means what pastoralism is referring to societies that

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Speaker 5: keep and herd livestock. So it's around livestock production. It's

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Speaker 5: not only an important part of economic security. It's tied

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Speaker 5: to food security, it's tied to cultural significance. And so

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Speaker 5: in northern Kenya where we work in, like Hippia and

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Speaker 5: Sambru Counties in particular, the pastoralist communities are really important

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Speaker 5: partners for conservation. And so all of our conservation strategies.

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Speaker 7: Are going to involve livestocks that happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I have a little more that too, So

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Speaker 3: people here in America that might be listening. It's not

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Speaker 3: like a farm where they bring hay to the livestock.

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Speaker 3: They are hurting their livestock every morning out of the

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Speaker 3: little bomas or areas they create for safety.

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Speaker 2: Overnight, they're walking through the wilds.

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Speaker 3: Basically the finals grasslanes you had mentioned that's where those

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Speaker 3: conflicts can happen, and they bring them back in at

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Speaker 3: night time there's no delivery of hay or grains, so

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Speaker 3: they're really very much a part of the habitat that

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Speaker 3: they're living in with those elephants exactly.

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Speaker 5: And that's part of the decision making around these community

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Speaker 5: conservancies where we work. So community conservancies are such a

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Speaker 5: critical land use type, not only for land rights for

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Speaker 5: pastoralist communities, but because wildlife cannot survive in government protected

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Speaker 5: areas alone.

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Speaker 7: There's just not enough space.

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Speaker 5: And so the community conservancies are neighboring some of these

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Speaker 5: formally protected areas or private conservancies and managing landscape level

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Speaker 5: wildlife populations. And so the community conservancies, that's part of

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Speaker 5: their governance is deciding where livestock can graze during different

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Speaker 5: times of the year. What a few minutes ago referred

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Speaker 5: to a core conservation area or a grazing block. Those

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Speaker 5: are areas where the community would decide, Okay, we can

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Speaker 5: graze livestock here for these particular months until certain conditions change,

445
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,160
Speaker 5: like the next set of rains come, etc. The other

446
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 5: aspect I want to mention is that pastoralism is changing too.

447
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 5: So in the last few decades, more past oralist communities

448
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 5: in the North have been keeping small stock like goats

449
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 5: and sheep, and the grazing patterns for goats and sheep

450
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,399
Speaker 5: is different than cattle, So some of those considerations around

451
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,000
Speaker 5: where some of these livestock are going is important as well.

452
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 5: You'd ask us about different strategies and trade offs. I

453
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 5: talked about the high fences, Shifferd. Did you want to

454
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 5: talk about other types of fences too. I think this

455
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 5: is another part of the conversation when you think about

456
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 5: large scale land use planning.

457
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's definitely true.

458
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 8: So you know, electric fences are another popular intervention for conflict.

459
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 8: They don't come without costs. I mean there's very heavy

460
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 8: investment to begin with. And then also, you know, elephants

461
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 8: can figure out how to bring through a fence either

462
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,919
Speaker 8: they find a weak point, they figure out their tusks

463
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 8: don't conduct electricity and they use them.

464
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 5: No but serious talk about the videos to look at

465
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 5: watching an elephant figure out they could use their tusks

466
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,400
Speaker 5: to get is oh yourritible?

467
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 8: Yeah, and then you get these notorious fence breakers that

468
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 8: people know about, like these repeat offenders exactly, and because

469
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 8: they're social learners. You know, they're teaching those types of behaviors,

470
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 8: and so that becomes an issue. But it also, i

471
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 8: think Christy was alluding to it touches on something else

472
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 8: that we talk about a lot within conservation sounds and

473
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 8: wildlife health, which is landscape permeability. And so senses aren't

474
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 8: always great because you want to encourage movement, right, and

475
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 8: it really can restrict movement. And in this landscape in particular,

476
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 8: movement is critical Cattle they are tracking those fresh grasses,

477
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,880
Speaker 8: and so are elephants and other wildlife, and they're changing

478
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 8: their land use patterns as there's more ephemeral water on

479
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 8: the landscape, and so that movement really allows the habitat

480
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 8: to sort of recover in some areas when you know

481
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 8: there's not as much pressure on it because the wildlife

482
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 8: have moved elsewhere, and so that's an important one. You

483
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,199
Speaker 8: asked about other interventions and when they might work and

484
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 8: when they don't, and so part of the period when

485
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 8: we were looking and talking to people and looking and

486
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 8: seeing what people are already doing, were some really incredible

487
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 8: interventions that people had done just out of materials that

488
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 8: were around essentially trash, so like plastic bottles putting them

489
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 8: on wire fences because there's like a whistling sound that

490
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 8: comes through and.

491
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 4: Then elephants and it sounds weird over.

492
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: Exactly can go so far, I imagine.

493
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 8: Well, that's the point is that elephants figured out they

494
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 8: might be freaked out initially, and then they realize, oh,

495
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 8: that's at that tree looks really good and.

496
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 5: Say for it that that maybe the sound is repulsive

497
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 5: until the acacia pods inside looked just good enough to

498
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 5: try it exactly.

499
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 4: On the couch, you know, like, do I get up

500
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 4: and get those chips that I know I want to

501
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 4: get that I'm gonna so I really really need it,

502
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 4: you know. But that's really fascinating and so challenging with

503
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 4: such an intelligent animal as well, especially one the history

504
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 4: of communities in those areas in Africa. They're ingrained in

505
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 4: the nuances of wildlife. Zebra flow in one area and

506
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 4: so or they're cattle and whatnot. But then you have

507
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 4: a big elephant rollman in and you have to navigate

508
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 4: those things. How does one navigate an area where there

509
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 4: is no fence involved?

510
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 8: You know?

511
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 4: Do we understand the movements of behavior the elephant hurts

512
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 4: in that area and we try to navigate around those

513
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: behaviors or what are some of the strategies in that regard.

514
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, the two things that come to mind have to

515
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 5: do with elephant wear behavior, So.

516
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, why don't you touch on that, and I can

517
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 8: touch about tracking elephants.

518
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 5: Sure, So the foot based encounters that are tied to

519
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 5: human safety are part of one of our current strategies

520
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 5: that's highlighted in the toolbox, and that is understanding elephant behavior,

521
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 5: being able to read it as you are on the landscape.

522
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 5: And so one way to think about it is almost

523
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 5: these zones and thresholds, So if you come across an elephant,

524
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 5: making a decision about what you can do given how

525
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 5: aggravated they are or how close you are. So that's

526
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 5: one piece is reading elephant behavior, reading their cues, their

527
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,239
Speaker 5: body language. And the big part of that though, is

528
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 5: trying to avoid it beforehand. And so one aspect that

529
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 5: we're working to coordinate with our community partners is a

530
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 5: pilot that's going on right now during the school term,

531
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 5: which is gathering the students in the morning and having

532
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 5: them walked as a group by someone that's trained in

533
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 5: elephant or where behavior that's gone to the toolbox training,

534
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 5: and that has kind of cleared away based on some

535
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 5: of our other representatives that have called in to say, actually,

536
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 5: this path is safe. We're just there and there aren't

537
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 5: elephants there this morning. So you're trying to avoid it.

538
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 5: You're trying to strengthen numbers with the kids, and you're

539
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 5: trying to put into perspective what to do given the

540
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 5: situation with that particular elephant. Are there multiple elephants? There

541
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 5: is there a baby? There is it a single male?

542
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 7: Exactly? Exactly?

543
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: Wow?

544
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, So elephant aware of behavior and it's again you'll

545
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 8: find this in the toolbox that we spoke about earlier.

546
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 8: It's learning to read elephant behavior and so what are

547
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 8: the signs that they're aggravated, What are the signs that

548
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 8: you're too close?

549
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 6: What might you do if they start to escalate? Right?

550
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 6: What's the safe way to get away?

551
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 8: And so that's an important one, is just making sure

552
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 8: that people are sort of on the same page in

553
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 8: reading elephant behavior. If you see a bowl elephant, should

554
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 8: you look for other elephants. There's often an idea that

555
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 8: elephant bowls are alone, but that's not always true, right,

556
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 8: And so little aspects of that and understanding the ecology

557
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 8: and their behavior a little bit better, and that's been

558
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 8: a focus of the training.

559
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 7: You want to give an example of sound.

560
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 5: I feel like this is an interesting specifics of wind

561
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 5: sound and maybe something like an auditory noise could help

562
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 5: or could hurt given how close you are to the elephant.

563
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 5: I'm thinking about the vo voozellas in the toolbox.

564
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 6: Oh you talk about it.

565
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: Okay, before we get to that. Yeah, I want to

566
00:25:58,600 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: point I love that story. By the way.

567
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 4: It makes me think the kids can actually learn how

568
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 4: to read elephant behavior when y're watching the trained individual

569
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 4: for true, and I bet a lot of those crosswalkers

570
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 4: in the state, so listen to this, like man, I

571
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 4: could be read that.

572
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: It's a really cool concept.

573
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 4: So anyway, I love that idea, like just teaching the kids,

574
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 4: you know, from square one, seeing the kids.

575
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 5: From square one, and then embedding some of that evaluation throughout.

576
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 5: So I think that the data that's present and Kenya

577
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 5: oftentimes is around incidences when something happens. Is there a

578
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 5: crop rating incident? Is there something a really unfortunate safety

579
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 5: incident where someone gets hurt or worse, But we don't

580
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 5: have data on when something works to keep elephants away

581
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,239
Speaker 5: from somewhere. And that's what this pilot is helping us

582
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 5: to do too, in trying to get that reflection on

583
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 5: how well something's working. So having concentrated effort for a

584
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 5: short period of time and then coming back to reflect

585
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 5: and learn with that community decide if that's what we'll

586
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 5: pursue going forward is an important part of this process

587
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 5: as well. It's not a problem solution and then we

588
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 5: go and then they go and it works. It's going

589
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 5: to be a process and I think that is something

590
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 5: that we've committed to and has built the trust needed

591
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 5: to enable any of this work. So that I think

592
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 5: is a key aspect of the adaptability piece that Schiffer

593
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 5: was mentioning.

594
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 7: That's right.

595
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 8: Yeah, And Marco, you asked also about you know, on

596
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 8: the elephant side, like how can we monitor the elephants

597
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 8: and there are others on the landscape who are tracking

598
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 8: elephants that are prone to come into conflict. We're not

599
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 8: doing that work, but it can really inform how they

600
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 8: move around these resources and really importantly and touches on

601
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 8: something that we haven't discussed yet today, which is the

602
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 8: drivers of conflict. And so We've talked a lot about

603
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 8: mitigation methods, but land use is a big, big driver

604
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 8: of conflict, and so how a particular space is used,

605
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 8: whether it's a human area or a wildlife area. Are

606
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 8: there areas that have been corridors for elephants forever and

607
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 8: they're not going to stop even if there's development in there,

608
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 8: And so some of those tracking studies can really help

609
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 8: identify those corridors and help in those bigger conversations around

610
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 8: land use, planning, habitat fragmentation, which increases interactions between humans

611
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 8: and elephants.

612
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 4: While you're speaking, actually makes me think maybe some guests

613
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 4: aren't aware of like how elephants are so nuanced and

614
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 4: their traditions and their culture of what they do. I mean,

615
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 4: it makes me think of certain elephant species crossing vast deserts.

616
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: But the matriarch Abuelita, how the she.

617
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 4: Knows, you know, in a few miles are going to

618
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 4: hit that water source right there. So maybe people aren't

619
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 4: aware of that that these antle fins are really committed

620
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 4: in their traditions.

621
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: They're like, to your point, they're going to go through

622
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: this town because this is what.

623
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 4: We've been doing for generations, generations, So we have to

624
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 4: think about.

625
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 7: Those practices absolutely.

626
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 8: And if you want to see a really cool map

627
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 8: and you know, sort of story about Abulita is like

628
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 8: you can look at this paper published by Polanski at

629
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 8: All twenty fifteen and it showed these elephants in the

630
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 8: Namibian desert and you see their tracks. They're wandering, they're wandering,

631
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 8: they're wandering. It gets to a certain point when their

632
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 8: calves are going to need water and they be lined

633
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 8: for the closest water source, even if.

634
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 6: That's kilometers away.

635
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 8: It's remarkable how they do that, so they know very

636
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 8: well where that resource is.

637
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to your point you'd said, these elephant corridors,

638
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: these corridors, they're not super highways in the fact that

639
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 3: there's a lot of traffic, but it is this path

640
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 3: that they have known for generations and it's been passed

641
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: down for generations. So if maybe in the season that

642
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: they're not using that corridor, something is built there or

643
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: humans try to move into that space, that's an immediate

644
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: conflict that's going to occur because the elephant's like, no,

645
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 3: this is our road, this is where we've always gone.

646
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: So understanding the behavior of elephants, understanding the need of

647
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 3: the humans. Now, one thing we didn't touch on because

648
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: I think for us and probably for our audience, it's

649
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: kind of an understood why is this even important? Why

650
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 3: even address this? Why worry about the elephants? Why do

651
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: we care to try and make sure everyone can get along?

652
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 3: Why not just go, hey, humans need this and is

653
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: here we are great?

654
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: That's a heavy.

655
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 3: Fair and I do think I do believe our audience

656
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: listens to us, they're fans of this, understand the parts

657
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: of these conversations of conservation. But also it's a fair

658
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 3: question as because let's say somebody who's listening saying, hey,

659
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: I just listened to this great thing, this is what

660
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 3: they're doing for it, and.

661
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,479
Speaker 2: Someone's just looking. Why does that matter? Yeah, let's give

662
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: them that information. Why does that matter?

663
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 3: Let's let our audience have the opportunity to spread the

664
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 3: words sort of like you know, you were saying, how

665
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 3: we need to teach everyone these aspects of mitigating the

666
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 3: conflict by I understanding elephants. Let's teach our audience why

667
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: is this important? Why does it matter?

668
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 8: You know? I think elephants are remarkable animals for many, many, many, many,

669
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 8: many many reasons. There's the reason that you know, I

670
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 8: got into elephant study, which is that they have these

671
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 8: incredible social behaviors. They have strong relationships like we do,

672
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 8: and those relationships are adapted. They are incredibly important ecosystem engineers.

673
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 8: And so they are tree killers, which means that they

674
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 8: open up savannahs for grassland and prevent the sort of

675
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 8: bush encroachment that you get in a lot of areas.

676
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 8: They also create these paths that are used by other

677
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 8: wildlife by people. They dig, they release water from underground.

678
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 8: I mean, there's so many ways in which they serve

679
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 8: as important ecosystem engineers. One that we hear about a

680
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 8: lot for forest elephants is that they're seed dispersers. And

681
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 8: there are tree species that have evolved to be eaten

682
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 8: in past the gut of an elephant and depend on

683
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 8: an elephant's gut to actually spread. And so there's so

684
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 8: many ecological reasons. There are incredibly important cultural reasons and

685
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 8: social reasons as well.

686
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 5: Elephants are such an important part of national heritage in Kenya,

687
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 5: and so there is a strong societal significance. And I

688
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 5: touched on the wisdom that communities have from living with elephants,

689
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 5: and that's because that shared space dates so far back,

690
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 5: and so the meaningful connection to elephants is there. And

691
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 5: it's not to say that even with challenges, people don't

692
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 5: want elephants there. And so a lot of our strategies

693
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 5: are also building tolerance for accepting some of these risks,

694
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 5: but having the ability and the belief that they can

695
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 5: address any of these challenges to continue sharing space with elephants.

696
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 5: Shiftframentioned how elephants can be ecosystem engineers open up space

697
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 5: for grasslands to develop and flourish, and people that are

698
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 5: living with livestock need those grass resources, and so there's

699
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 5: many social and ecological reasons why protecting a future for

700
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 5: people and elephants is so important.

701
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: Pretty good answers, yeahs.

702
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 3: And it goes right into reminding everyone that we're all interconnected,

703
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 3: even in our human bubbles. We can appreciate wildlife, a

704
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 3: bird or whatever flying over a squirrel in the park,

705
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: but we're all connected. And we lose the elephants, the

706
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: folks over there will lose their entire livelihood essentially because

707
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: the engineering of the ecosystem. And that's an obvious point

708
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 3: there in the sense it was big mammal doing big

709
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: things but it's true for all species. They're all interconnected,

710
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 3: they all play a part in the world we live in.

711
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: It's so important for us to have our lives as well,

712
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 3: So it's great.

713
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that.

714
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 8: One of the reasons that we are able to have

715
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 8: this conversation is because there are elephants in that landscape,

716
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 8: because people have co existed with elephants for hundreds of years,

717
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 8: and I think that's an important one to re Absolutely.

718
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: It makes me excited.

719
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 4: You guys, they think of communities like in the Amazon

720
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 4: dealing with jaguars or maybe leopards in Asia. I mean

721
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 4: so many different things, even mountain lion. Here in the

722
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 4: United States, we're not.

723
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: You're removed from these coplaces as well.

724
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 4: Right, so maybe applications in Africa could be useful here

725
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 4: in the United States as well. But I love what

726
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: you guys are doing community work, engaging everyone together and

727
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 4: not just the Alliance alone. Right, We're always saying it

728
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: over two hundred collaborators around the world.

729
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 2: We can't do it alone.

730
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 4: So this is the stuff that really makes my heart sinks.

731
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 4: I really appreciate you telling me these stories.

732
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: Is great.

733
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 3: And before we wrap up, I was just reminded we're

734
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 3: here at the zoo, of course, and a family.

735
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: Just walked by.

736
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 3: Can we ask real quick each of you, how did

737
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: you get into this line of work? This is this

738
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: is your lifelihood, this is what you do. Yeah, and

739
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: we asked this question a lot of.

740
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: Our wildlife care specialists and whatnot.

741
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 3: But the level of conservation science where you're going back

742
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: and forth to Kenya, where you're helping bring communities together

743
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: and you're listening to communities to bring better information back,

744
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 3: how did you get to where you are today?

745
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: Either?

746
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 4: When of you go first, think about the little kids

747
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 4: here because no shape. But your jobs are the ones

748
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 4: people think about when they think about the aligns.

749
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: You guys are out.

750
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 4: There sweating it up, getting bitten by mosquito, step on

751
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 4: an elephant poop, I'm sure, but you're smiling every second

752
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 4: it anyway, it's great.

753
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 5: People ask me if I thought that I would be

754
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 5: exactly here, and the answer is no.

755
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 7: I was interested in education. I wanted to be an educator.

756
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 5: I've always loved nature, and so I started my career

757
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 5: with San Diegazy Wildlifeliones in some of our environmental education programs.

758
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 5: I was evaluating those to understand how people learn about

759
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 5: the environment, how they feel about certain pro environraural behaviors.

760
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 5: And then that really turned my attention to human behavior

761
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 5: as this driver of challenges that species face and also

762
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 5: this key that can turn some conservation strategies toward positive

763
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 5: futures for people in wildlife. And so I went to

764
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 5: graduate school my degrees focused on participation in conservation. For

765
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 5: my PhD work, I studied human draft interactions and poaching

766
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 5: is a threat to giraffe in Kenya. That's what really

767
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 5: built a lot of my relationships with these pastoralist communities.

768
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 5: And now I get to focus on the human dimensions

769
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 5: and ensure that our conservation strategies are for community goals

770
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 5: as much as they are to boost species population. And

771
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 5: before Shiff introduces herself or maybe after, the reason that

772
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 5: I'm so glad that we got to have this conversation

773
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 5: together is because our partnership is something I really value

774
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 5: in that it's bridging some of the social and ecological perspectives.

775
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 5: So we mentioned these dynamic systems and so being able

776
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 5: to approach some of these systems and understanding by pulling

777
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 5: information from communities, pulling information from elephant movements is really

778
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 5: valuable and so I love doing this with scientific partners

779
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 5: as well.

780
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: I love it.

781
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 8: And so for me, yeah, my family, I will say

782
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 8: it's always been extremely supportive of just following my interests

783
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 8: wherever they leave. And so I read everything I could,

784
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 8: and you know, as an undergrad like, I realized, oh,

785
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 8: if I'm interested in ecology, I should get some experience

786
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 8: doing ecological research, and so I cold went up to

787
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 8: a professor and he was awesome and he mentored me

788
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 8: for the next year and a half and kind of

789
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 8: taught me about ecological research.

790
00:35:58,640 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 6: And then that continued.

791
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 8: As I realized is that I wasn't really interested in

792
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 8: pursuing a career in freshwater diatoms. I was, it was fascinating,

793
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 8: but I was really interested in animal behavior and particularly

794
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 8: an animal social behavior, and so I started reaching out

795
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 8: to people who were doing the job that I wanted

796
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 8: to do, and eventually I got in touch with who

797
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,919
Speaker 8: became my PhD professor and who taught me a tremendous

798
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 8: amount about elephants and ecology and sort of crossing the

799
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 8: world between animal behavior and applied conservation. And so that

800
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 8: was really important and so I like to tell younger

801
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 8: people you know, like have a little hutzpa and make

802
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 8: sure that you're like reaching out and be okay with

803
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 8: rejection because you might not hear back.

804
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 6: All the time.

805
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: It's a good word hoodspy or little age, right, a

806
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: little saw. But that's great.

807
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, and I agree with that too.

808
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: It's like, if you're really passionate about it, a no,

809
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 3: it doesn't mean no forever. It just means not that person,

810
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: not that connection, not the route you're supposed to be on.

811
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: But keep following that passion and your curiosity, and eventually

812
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 3: water finds its balance. Right, you'll get to where you belong.

813
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 3: Where you guys are great examples of that.

814
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 2: So thank you so much.

815
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: Well, yes, later on.

816
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 8: Exactly exactly, and then find awesome colleagues you can work

817
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 8: that keeps you guys.

818
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: But again, right, it's that passion you each have has

819
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 3: brought you together to become colleagues, to become that cohort

820
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 3: that now you can bring others into around the.

821
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 2: World for this work.

822
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 3: So thank you both so much for spending some time

823
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 3: with us, sharing your stories and all the work you

824
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 3: guys are doing.

825
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 5: Thank you for having us and for highlighting community based work.

826
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 5: It's so fulfilling for us, and I hope we're back

827
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 5: to share how this work progresses.

828
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 4: I think we need to. This article is really rat

829
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 4: so literally everyone can jump on. Get the journal, become

830
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 4: a member, and your project does progress. If something comes

831
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 4: up that doesn't end up in the journal, give us

832
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 4: a call again for an update. Thank you, Thank you

833
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 4: some elephant nuckles.

834
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: Community was really good. That was really I.

835
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 4: Love when we talk about community, diversity of people over

836
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 4: the world, the United the Alliance, all these people together

837
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 4: work in and benefiting wildlife.

838
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: It's just it's great, right well.

839
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 3: You know, it's definitely an underlying current through every piece

840
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 3: of conservation we talk about, no matter what species, no

841
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 3: matter what location on the world you're in the US

842
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 3: or anywhere else, even like burrowing owls here in San Diego,

843
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 3: for example, there's an ongoing part of it, which is community,

844
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 3: trusting the locals and what they understand and know, and

845
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 3: working with them, collaboration with other organizations, not just doing

846
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 3: it ourselves, bringing together these teams to then not just

847
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 3: go Okay, we're done here and walk away, but let

848
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: that team that's staying there, that lives.

849
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: It's part of it.

850
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 3: Grow and become a part of that conservation and the

851
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 3: diversity of people that have to come together to make

852
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 3: that work. It's been a part of every story so far,

853
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 3: yet it's unique.

854
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: To each story.

855
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 4: Also, it's wild right now, and just the nuances of

856
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 4: human culture and in this case, elephant culture and all

857
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 4: these traditions woven together makes me excited of the possibilities

858
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 4: of the future for all manners of walking life.

859
00:38:58,760 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: And we're just talked about.

860
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,479
Speaker 4: Bees to elephants, but also we got to think about

861
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 4: the plants too, and these kind of conversations, right, and

862
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 4: that might be something we're gonna touch on that episode.

863
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: As a lovely lead in a great you're like a

864
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: professional podcast you are Amanda.

865
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 2: For that one.

866
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: But no, but it's exciting, right. We get we're talking

867
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 1: about some orchids.

868
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about a dangered orchid.

869
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll be the orchid house.

870
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: That's cool, guest.

871
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 3: Maybe our general audience might think, oh, orchids, I see

872
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 3: them in the store all the time.

873
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 2: But these are orchids.

874
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 4: We're like, maybe there's four left on the planet hundred percent, right,

875
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 4: And they get just as effected with all these conflicts

876
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 4: as well, with human beings also, so I can't.

877
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: Wait to talk about them.

878
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: All right, Well, there you go.

879
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 4: We're going to stay at the Zoo another episode, but

880
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 4: I'm excited about It's going.

881
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: To be a good one.

882
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: So if you haven't subscribed, please do and tune in

883
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 3: next time we talk about and learn more about in

884
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 3: endangered orchids right here at the San Diego Zoo.

885
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 1: Can't wait. I'm Marko Went and.

886
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: I'm Rick Schwartz. Thanks for listening and for watching.

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Speaker 3: For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San

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Speaker 3: Diego Zuosafari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife

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Speaker 3: is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikia

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Speaker 3: Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra

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Speaker 3: Spreen and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check

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Speaker 3: out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.