1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Podcast I am Robert Evans hosted Behind the Bastards, and 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: that was another fail to attempt to introduct. Introduce, introduction, 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: start my podcast about bad people you shouldn't have acts 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: the standard. Man, I really liked it. Yeah, I feel 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: a need to change it. Do you get a haircut 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: or something? Man, I get a lot of haircuts. I 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: don't know. You know something different? You know what I mean? 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: Go get a mohawk and keep the greeting the same. 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: I think frosted mohawk. Technically, yeah, frost to tips. Get 10 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: some frost and tips and leave the lips. No. I 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,319 Speaker 1: feel that like George Lucas, like, I'm not really an 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: artist unless I am tinkering with my work past the 13 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: point where it works and to the point where no 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 1: one enjoys it anymore. But your real artist man splaining, 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: and you still have that. Well, Actually, Sophie, this episode, 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to have you explained the asterday I wrote 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: about who you have never heard of? So this will 18 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: be a short episode of the show. M Hi, I'm 19 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: Sophia Alexander. You guys just out here giving him ship, 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: didn't You didn't even enter your guests because I interrupted him? 21 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: It was just a train wreck from the out of 22 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: the jump. Um, good god, you're not even tor like 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,639 Speaker 1: shady like eye looks. We keep giving each other about 24 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: all deserved. I'm very hungover right now. Um, so this 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: is a ship show in so many ways, Sophia, Hi, 26 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: Alexandra private parts unknown and for fiance, bitch we out, 27 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: that's right, Sophia. Yeah. Do you know about a guy 28 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: named John Ronald Brown? Yeah? I sucked him last week. No, 29 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: I don't know who. I hope not. I really really, 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: you will not want to have fucked this guy after 31 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: I'm here. He is, Uh, he is a genocider of 32 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: just babies, And I'm sure that I will want to 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: kill myself by the end of this, like I usually do, 34 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: because that's what you do to invite me here. No, 35 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, a genocider of babies. So babies aren't very tough, right, 36 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: So if you're killing babies, it's probably pretty quick, right, 37 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: Like they just can't handle a lot, probably, he said, 38 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: John Ronald Brown. This might be our darkest episode because, um, 39 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: because like the crime is the darkest because like obviously 40 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: we've talked about people have killed a lot more people. 41 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: Georgia Tan killed a lot more people, but the things 42 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: that he did to people are so gruesome and ghastly. 43 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about a lot of botched surgery today, 44 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: So oh my god, dude, I watched that show Botched 45 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: all the time. This is perfect for me. This is 46 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: like the most the worst version of that. Um we're 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: talking about a doctor who abused trans people for years. 48 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: So ah, dude, really, yeah, it's not a good it's 49 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: what I'm not here? Does he talk about he hates 50 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: me the most? I don't like all of the guests. 51 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: Is that what happened? Yeah, it's literally his hobby. You 52 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: are a bastard among bastards. I'm the real bad guy 53 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: of the series, except for in the case of this episode, 54 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: because John Ronald Brown is even worse than I could 55 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: hope to be. All right, let's do this. So, if 56 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: you were like a trans woman in like the eighteen fifties, 57 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: your options would be pretty much limited to like the 58 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: cosmetic you know, shaving, wearing, you know, the clothing of 59 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: your of your choice makeup. There weren't like options for surgery, right, 60 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: and so even many like pretty woke writers who had 61 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: a deep understanding of the community in the eighteen hundreds. 62 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: In early nineteen hundreds would kind of lump transgender women 63 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: in with transvestites and usually just use the word transvestite. 64 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: And nowadays that's like definitely an insult, but kind of 65 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: and you're reading stuff from like the late eighteen hundreds, 66 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: a lot of times they actually are trying to be 67 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: like understanding. It's just like the verbage hadn't evolved very 68 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: far at that point. The first person to transition medically 69 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: was probably Lily Elbe, who did so in nineteen thirty 70 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: with the help of pioneering sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld. In addition 71 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: to having an incredible name, Magnus was one of the 72 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: bravest scientists in history. He was homosexual himself, and he 73 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: had to hide being gay in order to practice medicine 74 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: at the highest levels of German society. Uh and in 75 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: spite of this, he established a career as a tireless 76 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: advocate for LGB in particularly t individuals. In Berlin. In 77 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety seven, he founded the Scientific Humanitarian Committee, which 78 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: was dedicated to ending the stigma against homosexuality and to 79 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: criminalizing it in germanys this eighteen ninety seven, so Magnus 80 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: ahead of the curve. Big Magnus energy over there, Big 81 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: Magnus energy. It's interesting to me that he's like such 82 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: an advocate while also being a closeted gay man himself, 83 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: because I think there was this understand that, like, well, 84 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: I won't be able to actually do this work very 85 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: effectively if kind of everyone knows. Um, because it's Germany 86 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: and eight. Um, that's an incredible sacrifice to make to 87 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: take closeted so you can help other people be themselves. Yeah, 88 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: he was an amazing guy. Um. Now. One of Magnus's 89 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: achievements was the establishment of an LGBT self help group 90 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: and probably the first self help group of like sort 91 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: of in the modern sense of the word, where queer 92 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: individuals in Berlin and again in the eighteen nineties and 93 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: early nine hundreds couldn't meet and discuss their issues. By 94 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: creating a space where these people could gather, Magnus also 95 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: gathered for himself the first large sample population of queer 96 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: men and women ever studied in a systematic and scientific way. 97 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: He circulated a questionnaire among them and received answers from 98 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of people. Um. Because he was able 99 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: to actually do like like longitudinal sort of like survey 100 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: work on the gay community prior to World War One. Um, 101 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: so there's obviously like groundbreaking ship, but obviously, given the 102 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: time it was, it was not perfect and you would 103 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: not consider like the wording that he used for everything 104 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: ideal in the modern sense of the word. And I'm 105 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: gonna quote from the Guardian now Elb, who was that uh, 106 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: one of the transgender women that he worked with, was 107 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: reportedly disgusted by the questionnaire and the ambiguity of trans 108 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: sexuality as it was represented in the institute. She described 109 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: being requested to answer all these very rude and strict questions, 110 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: says Rainy or Herne, a sexology researcher at Charite Hospital 111 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: in Berlin, she refused the descriptions of sexual intermediates such 112 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: as transvestites and hermaphrodites was not acceptable for her. For her, 113 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: there was no ambiguity. She was a woman, so she 114 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: was very irritated by the whole process. So even like 115 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: a guy like Herschfeld doesn't really understand like transgender, like that, 116 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: like the like the nature that doesn't understand what's going 117 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: on with Elb. And I don't think anyone really has 118 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: a vocabulary here. So like a lot of people I 119 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: think who were trans back then probably would have called 120 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: themselves something different, just because, like the state of development 121 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: of the vocabulary area was so much more primitive. Um. 122 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: But Hirchfield agreed to help Elb transition, and with his assistance, 123 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: she underwent surgery to have her testicles removed in Berlin, 124 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: and then she underwent further surgeries in Dresden. Now these 125 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: were mostly cosmetic surgeries. Um. But as her points out, 126 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: just cosmetic surgery was not enough for Alb. Quote. Elb 127 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: wanted to have implanted ovaries and a uterus because at 128 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: that time, to be a real woman you had to 129 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: be capable of having children. That was her ideal. She 130 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: was obsessed by this, and Elb's biography, which is based 131 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: on her diaries, she always fantasizes about being a complete woman. 132 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: So obviously then is now technology did not make that possible. Um, 133 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: I don't think we can do that now. In nineteen 134 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: thirty one, it was not a thing medical science was 135 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,679 Speaker 1: up to the task of doing. Uh An Elb's body 136 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: rejected the new womb and she died of heart failure 137 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: on September nineteen thirty one. Yeah, it's a real bummer 138 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: of a story. Um. And there's a there's a good 139 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: book about her, uh, the title of which I thought 140 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: I included in here, but I did not. It'll be 141 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: on Behind the Bastards dot Com in our in our 142 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: Stars notes. So Magnus Hirschfeld's Institute for Sexual Research was 143 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: destroyed by the Nazis and his records were destroyed once 144 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: Hitler came to power. If you google Nazi book burning, 145 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: the pictures that you get are the Hirschfeld library being 146 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: burned by the Nazis. And this was a major setback 147 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: for humanity and particularly for LGBT individuals, as much of 148 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: what Magnus had been studying where that was like the 149 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: biological roots of homosexuality. Uh. And in some ways science 150 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: still has not recovered from this loss. It took up 151 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: until like really the last like ten or fifteen years 152 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, where like we started to 153 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: rebuild to the level that he was he was getting 154 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: to be at in the thirties. Have you seen the 155 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: show Transparent, No, they do flashbacks to to this, to 156 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: the to the whole story, yeah, to all the clear people, 157 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: and then to the book burning. It's not really like 158 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: told and like a chronological kind of like and then 159 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: this happened scene a just a little flashes every episode 160 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: for the season, for this one season anyway. Yeah, it's 161 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: a bummer of a tail um. So yeah, the Nazis, 162 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: as Nazis do, really uh jammed a finger in the 163 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: eye of progress. But progress did not stand still in 164 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: other developments in the early twentieth century had a major 165 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: impact on the development of gender transitioning. In nine, estrone, 166 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: a female hormone, was isolated, followed by estriol. Eventually both 167 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: hormones were classified together as estrogen. Progesterone was isolated and 168 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: described to the first time in nineteen thirty four, testosterone 169 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty five. Now, it was not a short 170 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: route from isolating these hormones and tooth figuring out how 171 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,599 Speaker 1: to produce them synthetically, but by the nineteen forties, the 172 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: first injectable hormones had been developed, making what we now 173 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: know as hormone replacement therapy possible. So that's like the 174 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: genesis of of HRT. Now, the first person to receive 175 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: what we'd recognize as a modern gender transition was a 176 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: woman named Christine Jorgensen Um and you you might call 177 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: the first guinea pig for injectable hormones, because like people 178 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: really didn't know like how this was all going to 179 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: work until they tried it on her um. And I'm 180 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: going to quote now from the book Crossing Sexual Boundaries 181 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: by J. R. Kane Demos quote just how confusing the 182 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: whole situation was at the time, as indicated by the 183 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: fact that the physician involved in the case called Jorgenson 184 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: a transvestite in his official account of the case. His 185 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: treatment of Jorgenson was in part surgical castration and a penectomy, 186 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 1: but the important thing was the massive hormone treatment. Before 187 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: going to Denmark, Jorgensen had been injecting herself with estrogen 188 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 1: to bring about physiological changes, and after Hamburger and his 189 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: associate examiner, they decided to treat her with massive injections 190 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: of estrogen, much larger than she had given herself. The 191 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: large dose has just changed the shape of Jourgensen's body 192 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: to a more feminine contour, and her behavior, gait, and 193 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: appearance also became more feminine. As her beard became sparser, 194 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: electrolysis was used to remove the remaining hair. The one 195 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: thing they did not do for her was to give 196 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: her a vagina, a failure that was only later partially 197 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: resolved and not particularly satisfactory. Yet she looked and acted 198 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: like a and something that took considerable practice before she 199 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: was satisfied enough to tell her story. So Christine Jorgensen 200 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: went to the press in nineteen one um explicitly against 201 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: her doctor's wishes UM, and her story was an instant, 202 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: like huge media sensation UM. And while the media at 203 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: the time definitely did not treat it with overwhelming respect UM, 204 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: the fact that she was coming out and talking about 205 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: her experience was one of the most important moments in 206 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: the history of transvisibility. Like it was one of those 207 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: things that like it had to happen and it was 208 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: always going to suck. Kind of the first person to 209 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: do it because the media in nineteen fifty one was 210 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 1: not going to be very tactful, um. But because whenever 211 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: the Jackie Robinson of anything, it sucks. Yeah, And it's 212 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: a little like what you were talking about earlier, Like 213 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: it is awkward. We're kind of in this awkward period 214 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: now of discussing like non binary gender and like trying 215 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: to figure all this stuff in the terminology out and 216 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: it leads to a lot of arguments, but like you 217 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: have to have these awkward periods before you kind of 218 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: like get people used enough to certain ideas that it 219 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: stops being weird and starts being something that like is 220 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: just life. Um. Yeah, So Jourgensen is as important for 221 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons UM. And in the wake of 222 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: her transition UM, huge numbers of people started writing to 223 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: her doctor, who was again Danish, UM to request the 224 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: surgery for themselves, and in fact, so many people flooded 225 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: Denmark with requests for gender reassignment surgery that the government 226 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: had to enact a law banning it for non Danish 227 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: people out of a fear that they would just be 228 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: flooded by trans people from around the world looking for 229 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: surgery and hormone replacement therapy. So this is like like 230 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: there's all these people who have clearly always been there, 231 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: and when Jorgensen comes out there like, oh, it wasn't 232 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: just this thing that I alone was dealing with, UM, 233 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: And then they kind of flood Denmark with requests for 234 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: surgery because it's the only place doing it at the time. Now, 235 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: the medical community in the fifties was obviously very much 236 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: mixed on the subject of what precisely Christine Jorgensen was. 237 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: Many chiatrists considered her mentally ill and criticized Dr Hamburger 238 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: for using surgery and hormone replacement therapy instead of psychotherapy 239 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: to correct what was seen as a sexual perversion. Well, 240 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: it took a while for them to take it out 241 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: of the d s M as being something that we 242 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: can consider to be abnormal sexuality. So yeah, yeah, decades 243 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: and decades um. And the whole battle over that is 244 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: is very complicated and again beyond kind of the scope 245 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: of this episode, um. But one of the results of 246 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: this whole thing it was that doctor Harry Benjamin popularized 247 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: the term trans sexualism to replace transvestism. So in like 248 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: trans sexual again, we've moved beyond that term these days 249 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: and it's generally seen as rude, but there was a 250 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: time in which that was like the kind of polite 251 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: and medical term used. Yeah, yeah, that was a gain. 252 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: It was a step forward. So over the following years, 253 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: the first gender identity clinics started to be established, starting 254 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: with Johns Hopkins University and then case Western Reserve University 255 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: and then the University of Minnesota to the University of Oregon, 256 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:06,119 Speaker 1: and Stanford University. Kind of surprising that Minnesota beat Stanford, 257 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: uh for gender identity clinics, but good for Minnesota. Yeah, 258 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: Stanford should have been first. What the funk California you 259 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: would think, right, I mean, California hasn't always been this 260 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: libertine paradise is today. Yeah. Now, um, these institutions began 261 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: to slowly catch up to where Magnus Hirschfeld had been 262 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: back in the thirties. And while their research focused mostly 263 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: on trying to understand and classify what precisely trans people were, uh, 264 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: they also engaged in early sexual reassignment surgeries. Um. Dallas 265 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: Denny's Dallas Denny sorry, a trans rights activist and writer. 266 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: They did the ship at Denny's. Yeah, that's actually right 267 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: after That's fucking tight. It turns out they were terrible 268 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: at surgery, but really good at cooking omelets, so they 269 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: just sort of moved right into that. Man, kid can't 270 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: make an omelet without breaking a few removing a few eggs. 271 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: Am I right there we go. Sorry, who may have 272 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: actually a wrong idea about what an omelet is. We'll 273 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: talk about that way. So um. Now, Dallas Denny, um, 274 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: who was a trans woman who trans rights activist and 275 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: a writer, was very critical about some of their about 276 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: like the efforts of these kind of early gender reassignment 277 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: clinics uh And she wrote this quote. The clinics viewed 278 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: sexual reassignment as a last ditch effort to save those 279 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: with whom other therapies and interventions had failed. Those who 280 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: were accepted for treatment were usually prostitutes, those with substance 281 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: abuse problems, sociopaths, those who were schizophrenics, those who were 282 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: profoundly depressed or suicidal, and others who were considered hopeless 283 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: i e. Likely to die anyway. It was a classics 284 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: application of the triage method, with those most likely to 285 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: benefit from the intervention being turned away and the terminal 286 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: cases receiving treatment. So people who like were relatively emotionally 287 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: stable and healthy would be denied the surgery um because 288 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: they would seems like, well, you're fine, you don't need this, 289 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: and like people who were like clearly for probably a 290 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: lot of other reasons, you know, kind of on the 291 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: edge of suicide emergency cases would be given surgery. So 292 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: it meant that and this has this is like had 293 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: an effect that went onto this day because it means 294 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: that like some of the first you know, transgender like people. 295 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: The first people to go through this surgery that were 296 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: studied were people who had a whole lot of other issues, 297 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: which again lad to like. This reinforced this belief that 298 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: they were like fundamentally unhealthy because they wouldn't let healthy 299 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: trans people have the surgery. Um, so it's kind of 300 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: messed up. It's like when people blame Jews for being 301 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: into money and then the only jobs they could have 302 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: as whereas money lenders. It's like, yeah, now, um. Since 303 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: medical schools were often unwilling to help trans patients, the 304 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: private sectors swooped in to offer assistance, because sweet Lady 305 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: capitalism is nothing if not inclusive. Once money is on 306 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: the line. A small number of surgeons, some motivated by altruism, 307 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: others by a desire for cold, hard cash, began to 308 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: service the needs of the trans community. This was i see, 309 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: legal ground to protect themselves from malpractice claims. Many of 310 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: these surgeons required psychiatric clearances. The ones who did not, 311 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: inevitably tended to be sketchier individuals. And this finally brings 312 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: us to the subject of today's episode, John Ronald Brown. 313 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: The long introduction, Oh and now it's time for ads 314 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: you know who won't perform sketchy unlicensed surgery, Sophia, the 315 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: following goods and services, Yes, only licensed surgery um from 316 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: the following goods and services. Oh boy, it's gonna it's 317 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: not gonna be the last ad transition that's uncomfortable in 318 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: this episode. Was not great, Robert, it was not great. 319 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: It was not great. What do you want? No, No, 320 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: not great. A good add transition on a Sophia episode 321 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: that's not gonna have truth, But don't bring me into it. Yeah, 322 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: don't loop her unto your us thinking, your battleship. You 323 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: know what didn't kill all those babies, dick pills. Here's 324 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: some products, and we're back, all right. You notice I 325 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: got you saying goods and services? Now I do I do? 326 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: You incepted it? In my mind? I know it's pretty great. 327 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: I'll glow, I'll grow inside of you slowly like a fungus, Robert. 328 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: I love funguses. That's where we get all of our 329 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: best mushrooms. I'm just the mushroom of the heart, Sylvia. Yes, 330 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: we've had a little history lesson, and now it's time 331 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: to talk about a terrible person motherfucker. This whole thing 332 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: is a history lesson. Okay. Yeah, John Ronald Brown. Uh. 333 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna continually use his middle name because calling 334 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 1: him John Brown will very much mix him up with 335 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: the guy that we don't want mixed up in this story, 336 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: the hero John Brown. So, John Ronald Brown was born 337 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: in July fourteenth, nineto. I don't know where, and I 338 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: haven't been able to find much, if any, meaningful tales 339 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: about his childhood. He claims in interviews to have been 340 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: the son of a Mormon physician in Utah, which is 341 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: probably where he comes from. John was apparently something of 342 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: a child genius, and he found academic so easy that 343 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: he graduated high school at age sixteen. He was drafted 344 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: into the army at the start of World War Two. 345 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: And I feel like he would lie about graduating at sixteen. 346 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: But I do not feel like you would lie about 347 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: being from Utah. What do you gain from that? No 348 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: one has ever pretended to be from saying anyway, It's 349 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: like lying about coming from Oklahoma City. Yeah, I trust him. 350 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: So he gets drafted into the army at the start 351 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: of World War two, and as a new soldier, he 352 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: was required to take the General Classification Test, which is 353 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: the precursor to the modern as FAB test, which is like, 354 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: are you are what jobs are you smart enough to do? 355 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: In the army? Um. Now, decades later, in interviews with journalists, 356 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: John Ronald Brown would claim to have scored higher on 357 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: this test than any of the other three hundred thousand 358 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: people who had taken it previously in Utah. Now, this 359 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 1: guy is a liar, so he might be lying, But 360 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: I also don't know that you would lie about being 361 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: the smartest man in Utah. Um. Again, I mean, if 362 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 1: you're the kind of man who lied about being from Utah, 363 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: you would probably lie about being the smartest man in Utah. 364 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: I think he's probably it's just a pile of lies. Yeah, 365 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: maybe it's undred on your S A T S. But 366 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: only when you're not in your hometown. I like, I 367 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if three hundred thousand people was like 368 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand times the number of people who could 369 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: read fluently in Utah in the nineteen forties. So a 370 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of Utah shade being thrown in this. It is beautiful, 371 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 1: but not humans. Nobody goes to Utah for humans. It's 372 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: national park to get away from them. Yeah exactly, so, 373 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: um yeah, whatever the truth about how intelligent he was 374 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: visa v. The rest of Utah. Brown score was high 375 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: enough that the Army sent him to medical school. He 376 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: received his bachelor's degree from the University of Utah and 377 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: his medical degree three months later, because apparently that was 378 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: a lot easier in the What the fuck you just 379 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: had a b A and put in an extra three months. 380 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: That's like a summer. I don't think it was hard 381 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: to be a doctor back then. Um, they had just 382 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: locked down that you shouldn't shoot people for arsenic so 383 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: actually have been born earlier. I get some medical people up. 384 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 1: Oh man, you'd be a doctor. I'd be a colonel. 385 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: We could. We could have a podcast called The Doctor 386 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: Colonel Our Yeah, and it's still it will still be 387 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: a lot of murder, but in real life because there's 388 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: also no contact lenses back then, and I'm very blind, 389 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: so the doctor would be wild as hell. The doctor 390 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: would be wild the driving as well, because none of 391 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: us are wearing seatbelts. Um, just a bunch of blind 392 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: people crashing into each other at big steel cars. It 393 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: sounds awesome, Yeah, it does. It dool kind of rule Now, um, 394 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: the shitty John Brown, as I like to call him, 395 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: moved to Los Angeles to do his internship at Harvard General. 396 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: He finished his internship at the Queen of Angels Hospital 397 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, and at this point in his budding 398 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: medical career, there seems to have been no sign that 399 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: John was headed for anything but a productive career as 400 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: a man of medicine. John finished his time in the 401 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: military and went on to work as a general practitioner 402 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: in California, Alaska, Hawaii, and the Marshall Islands. Now it's 403 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: possible that all this moving around was just John taking 404 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: advantage of the fact that his skills as a doctor 405 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: gave him the opportunity to see the world. Given what 406 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: comes next, it's even more possible that he fucked up 407 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: in a number of horrifying ways and had to repeatedly 408 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: switch states. That's the case anytime you've got a doctor 409 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: in the forties that you know, got to move him 410 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: to another parish. God, it would be so like I 411 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: would absolutely have been surgerying people back any kind of surgery. 412 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: You want to just leave. I don't want to stay 413 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: in Mississippi. Like cut off an arm. In the next day, 414 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: it'll be awesome. So, um yeah, we don't know precisely 415 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: what he did in his early career or if he 416 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: was terrible from an early point. We only have one 417 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: example of an early funk up, when he botched a 418 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: thyroid actomy and almost lost a patient. Um, and we 419 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: do know that John shouldn't have attempted to perform that 420 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: surgery because he was not a surgeon and was not 421 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: qualified to perform a surgery so early on in his career. 422 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: There is at least one case of him performing surgery 423 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: without being trained to do so. Sunk you know what 424 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean? Oh yeah, you know surgeries Really it's like driving, 425 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, you just gotta get in there and 426 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: do it. Put your foot on the gas, close your eyes, 427 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: and start cutting it white meat. You know, that's the 428 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: way it works. So uh. After botching a surgery, John 429 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: decided that he should get training in the field if 430 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: he was going to start cutting into people, and he 431 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: spent two years in Newark City Hospital as a resident, 432 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: and also attended a plastic surgery program in New York's 433 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: Columbia Presbyterian Hospital. Unfortunately, he proved to be terrible at 434 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: all of this. He failed repeatedly. The So he goes 435 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: to surgery school, but he fails constantly the exam that 436 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: would actually certify him to perform plastic surgery um and 437 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: then he later brags about this to journalists. Quote, I 438 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: passed the written part of the exam without cracking a book. 439 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: But he says that he failed his orals because his 440 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: domineering father traumatized him and so he couldn't handle confrontation 441 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: with authority figures. He would say that my brain turns 442 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: into cottage cheese whenever he had to do the practical exam, 443 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: which did also stop bragging about not practicing. For being 444 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: a doctor, he had nobody not make you feel good. 445 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: I want you to practice, Yeah, I don't. I don't 446 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: pick my doctors, Like, who do I think has the 447 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: best gut instinct? I'm like, you could wing it. You 448 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: can be my doctor that I want the guy, Yeah, 449 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: that's not how we choose him. Yeah. I want someone 450 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: who's like, looks exhausted from the sheer number of books 451 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: that they've read. Yeah. I want to come in their 452 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: office and be like, damn, I could never read all 453 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: of these. That's how I want to feel. Yeah. Yeah, 454 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: So in total, John Ronald Brown failed the general surgery 455 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: oral examination twice and the plastic surgery oral examination three times. 456 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: He's not great. Now, this should have stopped him from 457 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: ever performing surgery in a hospital, but it didn't, largely 458 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: because no one really checked up on him. Since he 459 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: completed specialty residencies, he was still considered bored eligible, and honestly, 460 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: it seems like no one was really paying close attention. UM. 461 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: So John got to work surgery all sorts of people, 462 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: and outside of work, he had a somewhat tumultuous life. 463 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: His first wife left him for one of his friends 464 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: while he was in the army. Second life died of 465 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: breast cancer. John moved back from the East Coast to California, 466 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: where he started a medical surgery practice in San Francisco. 467 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: Now we don't know how John first learned about Christine 468 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: Jorgensen's transition or how he felt about it, but it's 469 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: plausible to assume his establishment in San Francisco, which was 470 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: then one of the very few places in America where 471 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: trans people had any visibility um would have keyed him 472 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 1: in on the fact that there was suddenly a major 473 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: demand in this segment of the population for surgeons. And 474 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: particularly surgeons who might not checked or surgeons who might 475 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 1: not um you know, wanted you to have a doctor's 476 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: note saying that you, uh, you were prepared for the 477 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: surgery surgeons who might just take the cash and do 478 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: whatever you ask them, Like when you go get button 479 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: plants and they put cement in your butt, Yes, exactly, 480 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: just in a hotel in Miami. Yeah, so the first 481 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: vaginta that's that was very specific. I mean, that's a case. 482 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: Remember that Vice documentary about people's like lip injections that 483 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: would rock their faces off, So that sounded I'm assuming 484 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: it's the same kind of thing. Yeah, exactly, just putting 485 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: ship into things that you shouldn't be because you're not 486 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: all licensed person and people just trying to save money 487 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: out there and do it under the table. It's amazing 488 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: the desperation for uh something like thicker lips that would 489 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: allow lead you to just like let somebody in a 490 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: hotel room inject you with nonsense. Like so many of 491 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: the stories are like oh and then I was like, 492 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: is there is there no uh anesthesia? And they're like nah. 493 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, well that's a really big sign for when 494 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: you're going to get surgery. That you should be an 495 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: under anesthesia, not for lip injections. But you know what 496 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: I'm saying when people are like, yeah, I had to 497 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: get butt injections, and they're just like, well, you're gonna 498 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: be wait during this, and like what that? Yeah? So 499 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: uh yeah, in the nineteen sixties, the late sixties, uh, 500 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: doctor started performing the first vagina plastics UM. And again 501 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: we don't exactly know when Brown got into this line 502 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: of work. He probably started providing minor cosmetic surgery to 503 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: transitioning individuals, like facial surgery and stuff like that, UM, 504 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: but he quickly grew interested in doing more extensive work 505 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: UM and by February of nineteen seventy three, John Ronald 506 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: Brown was established enough in the trans community that he 507 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: gave a presentation at the second Interdisciplinary Symposium on Gender 508 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: Dysphoria Syndrome sponsored by Stanford. Brown's presentation focused on what 509 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: he called his miniaturization technique, in which he would turn 510 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: a patient's penis into a clitterists, thus guaranteeing them the 511 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: ability to continue to experience sexual climax. UM. So that's 512 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: like the thing he starts like, he's probably for years 513 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: working in the community, but he has this idea to 514 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: basically trim a penis down to a clitterist while doing 515 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: a vagina plastic selling point. I mean, it's a good 516 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: selling point. Yeah, it makes sense. Right If someone was like, oh, 517 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: and you can come, I would be like, I don't 518 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: care what you said before that. So yeah, So by 519 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: the fall of that year, Brown had transitioned his own 520 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: career almost entirely towards that sort of work, very few 521 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: other doctors willing to do it, and most charged prices 522 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: that were far out of the reach of many trans people. 523 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Access is just not like, yep, 524 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: it's financial and whatever and yeah, yeah, well no, you're right, 525 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: you're you're you're right on the money. Because John Brown 526 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: basically establishes himself as the budget surgeon for gender transition um, 527 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: which is not uh, I mean, it's obviously it's a 528 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: necessary thing to have because there's a lot of desperate 529 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: people who need the surgery, But praying on people who 530 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: are just trying to live their lives like lives and 531 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: ruining them physically and otherwise is just evil. Yeah. Yeah, 532 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: well that's what we're getting to this period of time 533 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: is when a guy named Paul Ciotti, a journalist for Time, 534 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: met John Ronald Brown. Now Paul covered the LGBT community 535 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: for Time, and he seems to be one of the 536 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: very few mainstream journalists in that period who legitimately cared 537 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: about queer people. Um, if you read through his old articles, like, 538 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: the terminology he uses is not the terms we use today. 539 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: But he's clearly like trying to be understanding and coming 540 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: at this from a place of knowledge as opposed to sensationalism. 541 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: And he kept his ear to the ground and read 542 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: the mimiographed zines that the LGBT community disseminated during this 543 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: period of time to get out vital information. And as 544 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: a result, he ran across a story about a doctor 545 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: on Lombard Street who was, in the words of one columnist, 546 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: lopping people's penises off. So obviously, as a journalist, uh, 547 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: Paul's like, I want to know what's going on here. Uh, 548 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: So he gives a call to Brown's clinic follow up 549 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: on a lobbing penis's off. Lead. That's very promising. Let's 550 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: let's see what's going on. Um. So he calls Brown's 551 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: clinic and he winds up talking to Brown's partner, a 552 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: guy named Dr James Spence, and I'm gonna quote from 553 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: Siati's article in l a Weekly. Now, Spence struck me 554 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: as a bit of a hustler, far less polished than 555 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: one would expected someone with a medical degree if he 556 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: had a medical degree. To some people, he gave business 557 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: cards reading Dr James Spence, but to me he said 558 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: he'd earned his medical degree in Africa and thus couldn't 559 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: practice here. I later heard he was an ex con 560 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: who claimed to be a veterinarian, but that degree was 561 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: phony too. The clinic wasn't much, just a few rooms 562 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: on a busy street. It seemed more like a real 563 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: estate office than anything else. Sinsing my skepticism, perhaps Spence 564 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: invited me to an upcoming formal dinner at his hilltop 565 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: home in Burlingham, where he and his partner, the renowned 566 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: plastic surgeon doctor John Ronald Brown, would be explaining his 567 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: new operation to a group of urologists, proctologists and internists, 568 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: some of whom Spence hoped would join him and Dr 569 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: Brown and setting up the finest sex change facility anywhere 570 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: in the country. So there's a lot of information in 571 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: those paragraphs, and probably the most interesting is the fact 572 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: that this guy's business partner, Dr James Spence, is in 573 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: no way a doctor. He's even less of a doctor 574 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: than his non doctor partner. Yeah, he's having lied about 575 00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: being a veterinarian. So um. Yeah. Dr Brown's practice was 576 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: not exactly on the up and up. Um. Now, despite 577 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: his sketchiness, Brown needed Spence because the good doctor, the 578 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: actual doctor Brown was terrible at meeting people and had 579 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: no connections in the queer community and it was kind 580 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: of an awkward person, was not very good at building connections. 581 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: And at this point, you're really talking about something very 582 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: similar to being a drug dealer, when you're talking about 583 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: being the kind of medical professional like working with this community. 584 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: And so Brown doesn't have the ability to like kind 585 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: of interface the way that a drug dealer needs to 586 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: to build connections and trust in the community. And Spence, 587 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: who is a literal criminal and not at all the doctor, 588 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: is good at doing that and he's able to build 589 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: connections with the gay community. Um. And he helps broker 590 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: deals between John Brown and queer figures like Angela Brown, 591 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: who was the publisher of Mirage magazine, which was like 592 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: an LGBT focused periodical at the time, John Brown helped 593 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: to fund the magazine in exchange for promotion of his clinic. 594 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: Now Pulsati attended the soire Brown and Spence through to 595 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: publicize the opening their new clinic, and here's how he 596 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: described it. This is interesting to me. After the fruit 597 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: and cheese, we adjourned to the kitchen, where one of 598 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: the waitresses lay on a butcher blocked table and casually 599 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: flipped up her skirt. A goose neck lamp was produced, 600 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: and all the doctors proceeded to examine the kind of 601 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: work currently being done by Dr Brown's competition. I'm no 602 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: expert in female anatomy, but the waitresses genitalia did not 603 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: look like those of any woman I'd ever seen. There 604 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: was no clitterest or anything resembling a vagina. It rather 605 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: looked like someone had taken a pickaxe and neatly poked 606 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: a small square hole and inch on aside directly into 607 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: her growing Either that or like an aerial photograph of 608 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: a Manitoba iron ore mine taken from twenty feet. In contrast, 609 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: Spence maintained Brown had developed a revolutionary technique that would 610 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: give transsexuals fully orgasmic clitteresses and esthetically pleasing vaginas. Later, 611 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: Dr Brown and I stood around the kitchen table while 612 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: he displayed what to me were ghastly photographs of his 613 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: surgical technique. One picture showed a gauze noose holding up 614 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: the head of a bloody penis while Brown sliced away 615 00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: at the tendrils of unwanted directile tissue. So, and I 616 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: want to emphasize here, Si is not like a squeamish 617 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: dude about all this, Like he's not the kind of dude. 618 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: He's just squeamish about the idea of trans surgeries. What 619 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: he's seeing in Dr Brown's work is like not good. 620 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: It's not the way it should look. Brown and Spence 621 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: are like when serial killers work together, and like Brown 622 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: is the one that stays home and murders, and then 623 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: like Spence is the one and that goes and gets 624 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: the victims because he's like personal, yeah, yeah, except for 625 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: the victims sort of survive and in some ways get 626 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: brought into the clinic. So like one of the ways, 627 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: one of the ways that actually kind of made sense 628 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: that they ran their clinic. So at this time, if 629 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: you were going to like go the legit way to 630 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: get gender confirmation surgery. UM, you would work with a 631 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: psychiatrist and would essentially spend some time taking hormones and 632 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: living as your new gender UM, and then that psychiatrist 633 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: would be like, Okay, I think you're you're ready, You're 634 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: you've committed, Like this is clearly not a passing thing. 635 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: Let's get you the surge. What Dr Brown and his 636 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: uh and Spence said should be done is instead other 637 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: trans women should meet with the people who wanted surgeries 638 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: and vet them, which, on its face it sounds like, okay, 639 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: that might be one a reasonable way to do it. 640 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: Is like these people know what's really involved in the surgery, 641 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: they might be able to do a better job of 642 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: like judging like when someone's like emotionally like ready to 643 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: undergo this thing, you know, when you're talking about the seventies. 644 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: That seems like a pretty pretty advanced way to look 645 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: at it. But the reality is that, um, those people 646 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: are doctors or professionals. They're just they're not doctors or professionals, 647 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: and they're essentially working for Dr Brown as a way 648 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: to pay off their own surgeries. Yeah, so it's not 649 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: there's there's aspects of what he was saying. He wanted 650 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: to do that. I'm like, yeah, that might make sense, 651 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: and then like you really dig into it and it's like, 652 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: oh no, it was just a grift. Okay, the fucking 653 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: MLM scheme man a little bit, except for I don't like, 654 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 1: none of them are in it to make a profit. 655 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: They're just trying to get this thing that they like 656 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: literally is life and death for them, this surgery. No. 657 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: I just mean like, once they're in, they're getting other 658 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: people involved, and then those people are going to get 659 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: new people involved, and it's just like witness. Yeah, yeah, 660 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: it's not maybe not the best idea, although you can 661 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: see why when he explains it to other people they 662 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: might be like, oh, yeah, that seems like a reasonable 663 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: way to do it. Yeah, and who would know at 664 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: that point. It's not like exactly, this is revolutionary, so 665 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: could be revolutionary, like we know that this is great 666 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: or revolutionary, Like it's just new, that's it. Yeah. So 667 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: to Layman, at least, what Dr Brown claimed to be 668 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: doing made sense. His patients had penises that they wanted 669 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: to transform into vaginas, so he would basically split the penis, 670 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: saving the nerves and blood supply, and then reposition the 671 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: head under a hood of flesh to create a glutorus. 672 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: The penile skin was used to create labia, and the 673 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: hair was removed from the scrutle skin to create the 674 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: lining of a new vagina. In theory, this is a 675 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: pretty reasonable way to do things. This is on paper 676 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: what is supposed to be happening. There were two problems 677 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: probably him. One was that John Ronald Brown had an 678 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: almost pathological aversion to performing surgery in hospitals, medical clinics, 679 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: and anywhere else you might actually want to have major surgery. Dude, 680 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: that's part of the job. Are you kidding me? That's 681 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: like if I'm like, I want to be a comedian, 682 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: but I do not want to be on a stage 683 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: or in a bar, or in a theater or in 684 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: a club. I want to be a comedian, but I 685 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: would like to tell my jokes to the children of 686 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: strangers who I abduct from their elementary school. Is that 687 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: a job? I It's like, No, that's not the job. 688 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: That's just a crime. Um. Yeah. So instead of working 689 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: in like, you know, a clean operating room where it's 690 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: safe to perform surgery, John Ronald Brown preferred to work 691 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: out of his own home UM, which I prefer to 692 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,919 Speaker 1: work out of my home too. I'm working in my home, 693 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: drinking my coffee and wearing my pajamas right now. Yeah, 694 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: but you can't be a stay at home surgeon. That's 695 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: that's a fucked up dream. Like points for dreaming the 696 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 1: big dream, But you cannot be a stay at home 697 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: surgeon exactly. I performed surgery less than five times a year, 698 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: I would say, um, and you know, mainly to friends 699 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: and enemies. Um so yeah. One early patient recalled going 700 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: to Brown's home office, assuming that they would just receive 701 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: a checkup on a surgery they'd gotten earlier. Instead, she 702 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: woke up from the anesthetic to find that Brown had 703 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 1: performed surgery on her in his garage. Jesus not great. Um, 704 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: unsettling as that is. Dr Brown was very popular for 705 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 1: a while as hiss no frills practice made transitioning much 706 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: more affordable than it had ever been before. John's home 707 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: acquired the nickname the House of Dreams, which is fucking 708 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: heartbreak and given what he takes. Yeah. One of John's 709 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: early patients was a woman named Elizabeth. She was initially 710 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: very happy with her new vagina, but a year after 711 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: receiving the surgery, it began to tighten up and essentially 712 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: heal itself closed. When she freaked out about this, John 713 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: was nowhere to be found. Elizabeth had to find another surgeon, 714 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: Dr Jack Fish, sure to bat clean up. When interviewed later, Fisher, 715 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: who had to clean up for a lot of Brown's patients, 716 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: said this, It's hard to imagine anyone worse than John 717 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: Ronald Brown. He didn't care much for evaluating his patients 718 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: before surgery or for post operative care. He was totally 719 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: focused on the technical procedure itself, and he didn't do 720 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: that very well. So this guy is all about the 721 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: technical details of the surgery, and he's also bad at 722 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: the technical details of the surgery. Uh yeah. Now, In 723 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: spite of the sketchiness of Brown's practice and the bad 724 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,879 Speaker 1: experience of a lot of his patients, he was very 725 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: popular among the trans community for a while. Wendy Davidson, 726 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: who helped to organize peer clinics for the trans community, 727 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: which is like clinics, operated like buy in for trans 728 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: people to like provide each other with life saving healthcare. 729 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 1: Since the government and society did not give a funk 730 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: about them, so Wendy worked with Dr Brown for a 731 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: while until another activist, Donna Colvin, reported that she'd seen 732 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,240 Speaker 1: Brown shooting up valium before performing surgery on patients, sometimes 733 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: on literal kitchen tables. Required the nickname table to browns Now, Sophia, 734 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: you know who won't shoot up valium and perform unlicensed 735 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: surgery and a kitchen tabletop the following goods and services. 736 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: That's right, we're back. Uh we're talking about tabletop Brown. 737 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: Um a terrible surgeon. So, Sophia, how are you feeling 738 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: so far? Feeling pretty peppy? Good things are on the horizon? 739 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: You are You are fiddling with things with your hand 740 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: in such a way that I can almost like taste 741 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: the discomfort in the room, and that means it's a 742 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: good episode. Question until I can show her what this 743 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: guy looks like. Let's wait until the end of episode one. Okay, 744 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: so excited. Oh my god, Now I'm trying to picture. 745 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 1: I think you might look like, Yeah, it's it's a 746 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: it's a thing. So uh. These stories, stories of like 747 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: him shooting up valium before performing table surgery, took some 748 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,399 Speaker 1: time to percolate out into the wider community. For one thing, 749 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: most of the women engaging Brown services specifically hired him 750 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: because they couldn't afford to go to professional clinics where surgery, 751 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: for example, was performed in a not in a kitchen. 752 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: The fact that he worked out of his house as 753 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: well as hotel rooms and garages was just something that 754 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: these patients had to accept because they were transmarted in 755 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: the seventies and they just weren't a lot of fucking options. 756 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: You know, it was garbage. It's still garbage, but slightly less. Anyway, 757 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: do you think if you got your surgery done in 758 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: the in the kitchen and then you found out your 759 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: friend got there's in a garage, you were like kind 760 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: of big timing them. You're like, oh, yeah, I guess 761 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: you didn't think you were good enough to operate for 762 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: to operate on in the kitchen. Oh you're a kitchen 763 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: or huh, yeah you're a garage. Yeah I was in 764 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: the kitchen. Sorry about that. Sorry about that nice kitchen. 765 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: He had a juice maker. Um So Paul Ciotti, who 766 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: was like the very first journalist to dig into John 767 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: and really like the source of sixty percent of the 768 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: information for this podcast. I really I have a lot 769 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: of I don't know much about the rest of his career, 770 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: but just based on sort of his work in this 771 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: community in this period. I have a lot of admiration 772 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: for him because he's writing for like, Time fucking magazine, 773 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: and he's covering this group of people that like nobody 774 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: else gives a shit about. So good on you, Paul, Um, Yeah, props. 775 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: So Uh. He found John Ronald Brown impressive at their 776 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: first meeting. Uh, And I'm gonna quote from him here. 777 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: I must say he came across as genial, knowledgeable, and 778 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,439 Speaker 1: obviously quite proud of his technique. There was a certain 779 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: naivete and even passivity about him that struck me as 780 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: surprising and a surgeon. But compared to everything else I 781 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: had seen that night, it didn't warrant a second thought. 782 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: So Paul wrote what he describes as a pretty boring 783 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 1: article about sexual reassignment surgery for Time, since he didn't 784 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: think that Time would publish the wider details about what 785 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: he'd seen. Um And before it went to print, Dr 786 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: Brown called him to beg that Paul not mentioned his 787 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: name in the article. He informed Paul that he and 788 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: Spence had had a falling out and canceled their plans 789 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: to start a clinic. It is uncertain precisely what happened 790 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: between Spence and Brown, but stories later came out that 791 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: he allowed Spence to carry out his own surgeries, and 792 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: again Spence was a fake veterinarian, uh, not even a 793 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: fake doctor. So like something very very sketchy happened between 794 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,240 Speaker 1: him and Spence and they stopped getting along. By nineteen 795 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 1: seventy seven, Dr Brown had botched enough surgeries that a 796 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 1: bunch of other doctors, the ones who had to correct 797 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 1: his work largely had complained. The California Board of Medical 798 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: Quality Assurance looked into Dr Brown and was shocked to 799 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,919 Speaker 1: realize that he'd worked with a fake veterinarian turned fake 800 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: doctor and let this person perform surgery. They revoked his 801 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: medical license for quote gross negligence and competence and practicing 802 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: unprofessional medicine in a matter which involved moral turpitude, among 803 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: other things. The board was furious with John for allowing 804 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: his patients to work as clinical assistance in order to 805 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: pay off their medical debts to him. So this is 806 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: again what I'm talking about, Like people can't pay all 807 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: up front, and he's like, why don't you be a nurse? Well, 808 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: I don't you don't need to know to be a nurse. 809 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: My my, my partner here is a fake vets exactly. 810 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 1: My doctor partner is not a doctor. No amous like 811 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: who we say we are here. You want to pretend 812 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: to be a nurse, You want to pretend to be 813 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: a nurse. I'll shave a couple grand off the cost. 814 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: Now I'm going to quote from Palsiati again. Among other things, 815 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: the board charged Brown allowed Spence to hold himself out 816 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: as an m D. He allowed unlicensed people, including other 817 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: transsexual patients, to write prescriptions under his signature, diagnosed patients, 818 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: and provide medical care. He misrepresented sex change surgery and 819 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 1: insurance forms is corrective surgery for the congenital absence of 820 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 1: a vagina. He exhibited gross negligence by failing to perform 821 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 1: sex change operations in an acute care facility. Brown did 822 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: them in his office on an outpatient basis. He unaccountably 823 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: failed to hospitalize a patient who had a life endangering 824 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,479 Speaker 1: and puss infected wound the size of a softball where 825 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: his penis used to be. He failed to take medical 826 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: histories or do physical exams before surgery, and he did 827 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: sex change surgery on virtually anyone who asked for it, 828 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: regardless of whether they were physically or emotionally stable enough 829 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: to cope with it. Um And I think that's uh 830 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 1: where her penis should be. I'm not really sure about 831 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: how that patient identified. As a general rule, Paul's pretty 832 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: careful about not miss gendering people. But it was the seventies. 833 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: Um And yeah, yeah, I think I think he's better 834 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: than most people. UM. So at that point in history, 835 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: many credible surgeons required their patients to have lived as 836 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: their chosen gender for at least a year prior to 837 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,240 Speaker 1: receiving surgery. There's a lot that makes sense about this practice, 838 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: but it also meant that many of the people who 839 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: most needed to transition never got the opportunity. If your 840 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: life and job and friends and family couldn't accept you 841 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 1: living as a woman before actually receiving the surgery that 842 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: would that would make it easy to pass, than you 843 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: just couldn't transition. Um. Some people, including some reputable physicians, 844 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: defended Dr Brown for serving the community when no one 845 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: else would. Uh. The judge who revoked his medical license 846 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: actually filed a memorandum opinion for Brown, calling him a 847 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: pioneer who made innovative contributions to trans sexual surgery despite 848 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,800 Speaker 1: difficulties like performing major surgery on a dinner table. The 849 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: judge suggested that Brown should be limited to perform arming 850 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: surgery and a medically recognized organization rather than being drummed 851 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,479 Speaker 1: out of the field entirely. So that's actually a little 852 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: bit surprising to me that, like, yeah, what a weird 853 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: answer to the situation, Like we still want this guy 854 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: on the team, you know. I think it might just 855 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: be a judge who realized that these people were desperate 856 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: and that no one else was serving them, and is like, again, 857 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: the primitive nature of like our understanding of like um 858 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 1: gender and particularly trains people at this point means that 859 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: like this might not have seemed as brutal because like 860 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: you have to think they think about early treatments for cancer, 861 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: like they're literally like pouring acid into people's wounds, like 862 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: like hydrochloric acid and ship like that, like trying to 863 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: burn it off from the inside. Um, So medicine tends 864 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: to be brutal, and especially medicine that's kind of on 865 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: the cutting edge, and especially in this period, and I 866 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: think probably there were a lot of people who are 867 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,760 Speaker 1: like well, of course he has a lot of patients 868 00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,040 Speaker 1: with bad outcomes. This is new, nobody knows how to 869 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: do it. Well, we're still learning this thing. You know. 870 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: We should just try to make sure he works in 871 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: a good, clean space because he's a pioneer. Like I 872 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: think that's the that's the angle at least from the 873 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,240 Speaker 1: people who are like reasonably um, like compassionate, Like I 874 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:16,840 Speaker 1: I think he kind of tricked some of them and 875 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,360 Speaker 1: they're like, well, yeah, what he did isn't great, but 876 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: like no one else's is doing this work, and it's 877 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 1: it's no one else is harming this group of people. Yeah, well, 878 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: you also have to admit there were hundreds of people 879 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: by this point who had horrible at least dozens who 880 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: had horrible John Brown stories, but there were at least 881 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: as many, if not more, people who had good John 882 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: Brown surgeries. Um, because you know, it's it's some people. 883 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,280 Speaker 1: It's the same thing. That's like one of the difficulties today. 884 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,280 Speaker 1: Some people take really easily to this kind of surgery 885 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: and their bodies heal well and it's very simple for them. 886 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: And you know, between like minor surgery and the hormones, 887 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,399 Speaker 1: they have a really easy transition. And some people because 888 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,359 Speaker 1: of their age, because of just their genetics. It's much 889 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,720 Speaker 1: more complicated. And so there are some people who John 890 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: does his thing on and it works out great for them, 891 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: and they get a good deal and they're grateful and 892 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,840 Speaker 1: they speak his praises and they send other people to him. Um. 893 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,799 Speaker 1: And so it's not just people saying he did a 894 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: horrible job on me. I guess I didn't realize how 895 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:23,600 Speaker 1: many happy customers he ut. Sounds like you're for him. 896 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to point out, like when I was 897 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: here last time, you were like pro a certain kind 898 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: of dog fight. I am, I'm trow a lot of 899 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: kinds of dog fights. I mean, look, we don't need 900 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: to get into that today. No, sorry, go ahead. Hashtag 901 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:44,920 Speaker 1: not all dog fights. Um. Hashtag Robert, it's a good hashtag. Sophie, 902 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:50,400 Speaker 1: it's a good hashtag. So Um. The judges like, this 903 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,000 Speaker 1: guy's a pioneer. We got to stop him from doing 904 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 1: tabletop surgery. But you know, maybe if we can get 905 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,399 Speaker 1: him to just work in an o R, he can 906 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,200 Speaker 1: do good work. Um. But John Brown did not ache 907 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 1: this advice or this chance to actually improve his skills 908 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: and serve a community in a responsible way. Instead, he 909 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: moved to Hawaii. UH. He almost immediately lost his permission 910 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: to practice medicine in the state by doing something horrible, 911 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,280 Speaker 1: So he moved to Alaska, and he lost his permission 912 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,640 Speaker 1: to practice medicine in Alaska shortly thereafter. The hits kept 913 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: on coming. In nineteen seventy nine, one of his very 914 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 1: first vaginal plastic patients sued. Julie had initially reached out 915 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,560 Speaker 1: to Dr Brown about getting breast implants. He had convinced 916 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: her that he could make her, into his words, a 917 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,399 Speaker 1: perfect woman with his new techniques UH, and convinced Julie 918 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,760 Speaker 1: to undergo a full operation UH. Dr Brown was assisted 919 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,440 Speaker 1: in this by not a doctor Spence. The surgery did 920 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,399 Speaker 1: not go well, and Julie sued in nineteen seventy nine, 921 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,640 Speaker 1: claiming Dr Brown had left her neither male nor female. 922 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,280 Speaker 1: They settled out of court for enough money to provide 923 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 1: psychiatric care, help for the rest of Julie's life, and 924 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: a new operation. By the time the court battle was done, 925 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,400 Speaker 1: Dr Brown had basically rendered himself unemployable across the entirety 926 00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:01,360 Speaker 1: of the continentally United States, Hawaii, and Alaska. So next 927 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 1: he moved to the Caribbean. Fuck, Why you got to 928 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:11,719 Speaker 1: bring the Caribbean into this? Why you gotta do it? Yeah? 929 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,600 Speaker 1: St Lucia to be specifical. Now, when you read other 930 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,319 Speaker 1: doctors talking about John Brown, they'll note that it was 931 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,359 Speaker 1: considered almost impossible to lose your medical license in the 932 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 1: Caribbean at that point in time. But John did um 933 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:30,920 Speaker 1: and he is a pen like people talking about like, 934 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: I don't know how he lost his medical license and 935 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,760 Speaker 1: the fucking Caribbean, but he It must have been horrible. 936 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: So uh, St Lucia was not entirely a loss for 937 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,839 Speaker 1: Dr John Ronald Brown, though in ninety one he fell 938 00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 1: in love there for the third and final time. Love 939 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,319 Speaker 1: might be too strong a word for it. Yeah, love, 940 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 1: love may not be the proper way to describe this, 941 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,280 Speaker 1: I should say. At age fifty nine, doctor John Brown 942 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 1: contracted and arranged marriage with the parents of a seventeen 943 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: year old girl who did not English. Oh God, would 944 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: I'd call it buying a woman? Oh yeah, buying a 945 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 1: woman seems accurate. He seems to have basically paid her 946 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:17,360 Speaker 1: parents for her hand in marriage. She's a child, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. 947 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 1: He taught his new wife, Julie to speak English. And 948 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,359 Speaker 1: they had two sons. Uh. In an interview with Paul 949 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,160 Speaker 1: Ciotti decades later, here's how Julie recalled their courtship. He 950 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: asked me if I would like to get married. I said, 951 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I was seventeen, he was fifty nine. Still, 952 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 1: I'd be remiss if I didn't state that. Julie has 953 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,320 Speaker 1: for years been consistent in expressing her gratitude to Dr. Brown. 954 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,240 Speaker 1: Even after they divorced in the nineteen nineties, she insisted 955 00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,759 Speaker 1: to reporters that she still loved him. He raised me. 956 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 1: He taught me to read and write. He's a really 957 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,279 Speaker 1: good man. If I had to do it again, I'd 958 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: marry him in a heartbeat. That's straight up Stockholm syndrome. Yeah, 959 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: it's fucked up. Like he raised me and taught me 960 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:58,440 Speaker 1: how to read and write. Yeah, that's it's not okay. 961 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,959 Speaker 1: You can't raise someone and at the same time, that's 962 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:08,320 Speaker 1: not okay. No, No, you cannot, um no, you cannot. 963 00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,839 Speaker 1: I don't have a joke for that. Just pickle an, 964 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Now. Once John lost his 965 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: license to practice in the Caribbean, he was left with 966 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,359 Speaker 1: only one possible option for continuing his medical practice. Do 967 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,319 Speaker 1: I even need to say where he moved next? You know, 968 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 1: no where to where do where does a California doctor 969 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,840 Speaker 1: go with no other place? P? Yeah, that's right, baba baby. 970 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,879 Speaker 1: Uh no longer legally a doctor, Brown established a new 971 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:47,800 Speaker 1: plastic surgery clinic in Tijuana while he lived in Chula Vista, California. 972 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 1: In order to dress up the fact that he was 973 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,720 Speaker 1: illegally performing surgery in Mexico. To avoid US law enforcement, 974 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,399 Speaker 1: Brown described his business as an international practice in brochures. Now, 975 00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,560 Speaker 1: he was far from the only doctor to use Tijuana 976 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,280 Speaker 1: as a bay of operations for his underground gender reassignment 977 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,560 Speaker 1: surgery business. A number of physicians, some of whom were competent, 978 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:07,839 Speaker 1: worked out of the city as well. The two most 979 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: prominent were doctors Biber and Barbosa. In short order, Dr 980 00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,040 Speaker 1: Brown established himself as the dude you went to when 981 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: you could not afford either of those other better guys. Uh. 982 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:18,959 Speaker 1: He was the doctor you went with if you wanted 983 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,879 Speaker 1: a surgery fast. He didn't even require hormone treatment, let 984 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: alone a psychiatrist referral beforehand. Over the course of the 985 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, he earned a reputation as tabletop Brown for 986 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,680 Speaker 1: his willingness to perform surgery basically anywhere. Dallas STINNY. A 987 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:36,680 Speaker 1: transactivist started hearing horrifying stories about Brown During this time, quote, 988 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,400 Speaker 1: patients were waking up in parked cars or abandoned in 989 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,360 Speaker 1: hotel rooms. There was no screening and no aftercare. Anyone 990 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,080 Speaker 1: who walked in the room was a candidate. Some of 991 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:48,080 Speaker 1: these people, expecting vagina plastics, received simple penectomies, leaving them 992 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,480 Speaker 1: looking somewhat like a Barbie doll. Others ended up with 993 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,399 Speaker 1: something that looked like a penis which has been soon 994 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,880 Speaker 1: and split to their groin, which is essentially what had 995 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,120 Speaker 1: been done. Some ended up with vaginas which were lined 996 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,400 Speaker 1: with hair bearing scrotal skin. These vaginas quickly filled up 997 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,360 Speaker 1: with pubic hair, becoming inflamed and infected. Some ended with 998 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,879 Speaker 1: paradon titus, some with permanent colostomies. Some ran out of money, 999 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,000 Speaker 1: and we're dumped in back alleys and parking lots to 1000 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:16,400 Speaker 1: live or die. Wow? What a yeah, Yeah, it's a nightmare. 1001 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,000 Speaker 1: Um Now, Jack Fisher, who's that plastic surgery professor at 1002 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 1: UC San Diego we talked about earlier, the guy who 1003 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,719 Speaker 1: batted clean up for John Brown. A lot concurs with 1004 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,840 Speaker 1: Dallas's summary of Dr Brown's competence. And again, this is 1005 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,560 Speaker 1: the guy who spent years like working on people that 1006 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,799 Speaker 1: he had butchered. Um And after correcting what he called 1007 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:38,240 Speaker 1: twelve to fifteen pelvic disasters, he said this, he's a terrible, 1008 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,080 Speaker 1: appalling technical surgeon. There is just no other way to 1009 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,480 Speaker 1: describe it. He doesn't know how to make a straight incision, 1010 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,399 Speaker 1: he doesn't know how to hold a knife, he has 1011 00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 1: no regard for limiting blood loss. Uh. And Dr Fisher 1012 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,640 Speaker 1: believes Dr Brown's practice amounted to a crime against humanity, 1013 00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,839 Speaker 1: but I should say not everybody felt this way. Dr 1014 00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,719 Speaker 1: Brown performed hundreds of gender transition surgeries, and either through 1015 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,960 Speaker 1: his own own semi competence or the fact that some 1016 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,400 Speaker 1: people really take easily to the surgery, a number of 1017 00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: these worked out pretty well. Uh. Pulciotti tracked down several 1018 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:09,720 Speaker 1: of these women. And I'm gonna quote from his reportage again. 1019 00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,840 Speaker 1: One thirty three year old manager for a major airline 1020 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,240 Speaker 1: tells me she had Brown do her gender reassignment surgery 1021 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five when she was only nineteen. It 1022 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,800 Speaker 1: was so successful. She says that when she later got married. 1023 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,920 Speaker 1: Her husband never guessed that she'd been a male. To 1024 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:23,840 Speaker 1: simulate a period, she used to prick her finger to 1025 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,399 Speaker 1: leave bloodstains on the sheets. I also hear from Anne, 1026 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,240 Speaker 1: a Cambodian refugee whose father was killed by the Khmer Rouge, 1027 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 1: that Brown had changed her entire, suffering, painful life from 1028 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,280 Speaker 1: that of an ugly worm to a beautiful butterfly. Furthermore, 1029 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,640 Speaker 1: unlike that of some trans sexuals who have difficulty passing 1030 00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:39,839 Speaker 1: as women, her surgery turned out so well she says 1031 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:44,240 Speaker 1: that she got a job as a stripper in Las Vegas, Chinatown. Now, 1032 00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:48,080 Speaker 1: while these stories were not necessarily rare, they were not 1033 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:52,600 Speaker 1: the norm either. Cherry, a North California businesswoman, traveled to 1034 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 1: Dr Brown's clinic in nine four to have dual sexual 1035 00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:59,120 Speaker 1: reassignment surgery with her brother. She explains he ran specials 1036 00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,560 Speaker 1: bring a girl for a two for the price of one. 1037 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,000 Speaker 1: Cherry backed out at the last moment when she saw 1038 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,920 Speaker 1: his actual office. The sewers overflowed constantly and there was 1039 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,360 Speaker 1: rarely running water. The O R was just a bedroom 1040 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,880 Speaker 1: with an O B G Y N chair in it. Sometimes, 1041 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,040 Speaker 1: Cherry claimed, Brown would sip coffee while doing the operation. 1042 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,880 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote now from l A Weekly. The 1043 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,840 Speaker 1: thing that most bothered Cherry, she says, was Brown's brusque 1044 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,160 Speaker 1: attitude after surgery. Would grab the dried, blood clotted bandages 1045 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,520 Speaker 1: and ripped them right off. He was always so disheveled 1046 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,120 Speaker 1: to his hair went in different directions, his shoes were 1047 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: scuffed and worn down. I remember him walking down the 1048 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,360 Speaker 1: hall eating raw weenies right out of the package. A 1049 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,600 Speaker 1: fucking package of weenies. So. In one case, says Sherry, 1050 00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:39,759 Speaker 1: who spent eleven days at Browne's clinic caring for her 1051 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,759 Speaker 1: new sister, Brown operated on an HIV positive patient who 1052 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:44,880 Speaker 1: still had pins in her arm from an auto accident. 1053 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,320 Speaker 1: She used the insurance settlement to pay for her surgery. 1054 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,920 Speaker 1: In another, he used too much erectile tissue to construct 1055 00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,239 Speaker 1: the genital outer lips. As a result, whenever the girl 1056 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:57,759 Speaker 1: got excited, her labia got hard. So not a great surgeon. Now. 1057 00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,720 Speaker 1: As the nineteen eighties faded into the night eighteen nineties, 1058 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: Dr John Brown was probably the most prominent low budget 1059 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,799 Speaker 1: gender reassignment surgeon, at least in Mexico, but the growing 1060 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 1: list of people crippled and deformed by his work. We're 1061 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,399 Speaker 1: starting to gain notice and speak out against him. Unfortunately 1062 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 1: for everyone, Dr Brown had evolved and his miniaturization technique 1063 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,480 Speaker 1: had given away to something vastly more horrifying. We're going 1064 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,080 Speaker 1: to talk about that and how it all came crashing 1065 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,840 Speaker 1: down for John Ronald Brown in part two. How you doing, Sophia, 1066 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 1: Just peachy, everything's super fun and happy. Thanks for having me, Robert. 1067 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,280 Speaker 1: You like this guy? Yeah? What ifan? Oh my god, 1068 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 1: that's what he looks like. Yeah? Yeah, you looking at 1069 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,680 Speaker 1: his picture? Yeah, he does not look like I would 1070 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:46,120 Speaker 1: trust him. No, how would you describe him? Just like 1071 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,720 Speaker 1: an evil old man, like racism personified? I guess. Yeah, 1072 00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: he looks like he would be like shouting at a 1073 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,840 Speaker 1: group of school kids in particularly shouting at the school 1074 00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,480 Speaker 1: definitely for being on his lawn. Yeah, he's your definitely 1075 00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,960 Speaker 1: your friends, like grandpa that would molest you. That's what 1076 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:15,160 Speaker 1: he looks. Yeah, he looks very molesty, like profoundly so. So, Sophia, 1077 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:20,160 Speaker 1: are you uh in a good mood? Yeah? Sup? S happy? 1078 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 1: You know, I love love, love love it when a 1079 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:29,280 Speaker 1: group of people just gets terrorized by a fucking murderer 1080 00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:35,360 Speaker 1: and they already are the most marginalized group out there, 1081 00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, if you can pretty good. For 1082 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 1: some reason, the most horrifying part of all this, like 1083 00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of terrible surgery stories in here, but 1084 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,880 Speaker 1: the most horrifying thought here is of like a doctor 1085 00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,360 Speaker 1: sipping coffee and eating cold wienies from a package and 1086 00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,439 Speaker 1: then immediately performing surgery without washing his hands. Like that's 1087 00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,600 Speaker 1: the thing that likes. The entire thing is so creepy. 1088 00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,480 Speaker 1: A doctor's with open sewage around. How can you even 1089 00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:11,440 Speaker 1: eat a weenie when they're sewage around? Raw? Or cooks? 1090 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:16,280 Speaker 1: John Brown? God, damn well, you want to plug your 1091 00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,960 Speaker 1: plugable Sofia before we write out. Yeah, you can find 1092 00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:24,560 Speaker 1: me on Twitter and Instagram at the Sophia t h E. 1093 00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,360 Speaker 1: S so f I y A and I have a 1094 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,760 Speaker 1: weekly podcast with Miles Gray from The Daily's Eyegeist. It's 1095 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:37,320 Speaker 1: called Fiance. It's half game show, half recap of our 1096 00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,200 Speaker 1: favorite trash show ninety Fiance and I have a podcast 1097 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,280 Speaker 1: about love and sexuality called Private Parts and now. So 1098 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,160 Speaker 1: check both of those out with Courtney Kossak, who did 1099 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,520 Speaker 1: Bastards like two episodes ago. She did, she didn't, And 1100 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. I have a podcast. It's this one. 1101 00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,000 Speaker 1: You can listen to it by continuing to listen to it. 1102 00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,400 Speaker 1: You can find it online behind the Bastards dot com. 1103 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,720 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram and Bastard's pot. 1104 01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,000 Speaker 1: I have a political podcast you can listen to about 1105 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,959 Speaker 1: this election called Worst Year Epper with my friends Katie 1106 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:11,840 Speaker 1: and Cody. It's on the same network. Um, and I 1107 01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:15,600 Speaker 1: will perform surgery on you. Um, but I will eat 1108 01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,320 Speaker 1: cold Weenies the entire time I'm doing it. Um, any 1109 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,680 Speaker 1: kind of surgery, I don't really care. I just love surgery. So, UM, 1110 01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:26,320 Speaker 1: come on down, find me in the woods. Um, I'll 1111 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:30,520 Speaker 1: just start cutting. Robert the Cutter, Robert the Cutter, all right, 1112 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:35,600 Speaker 1: that's the episode. Go, um, go listen to something happy 1113 01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,480 Speaker 1: to wash this out of your brain. Yeah,