1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Better Offline. I'm 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: your host ed zig Tron. Well, and in the next 3 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: two episodes, I'm going to tell you the names some 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: of the people responsible for destroying the Internet. And I'm 5 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: going to start on February fifth, twenty nineteen, when Ben Gomes, 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: Google's former head of Search, well, he had a problem. 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: Jerry Dishler, then the VP and GM of Ads at Google, 8 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: and Shiv Van Carterman, then the VP of Engineering Search 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: and Ads on Google Properties, had called something called a 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: code yellow for search revenue due to and I quote 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: emails that came out as part of Google's anti trust 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: hearing steady weakness in the daily numbers and a likeliness 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: that it would end the quarter significantly behind in metrics 14 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: that kind of unclear for those unfamiliar with Google's, in turn, 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: a kind of scientology esque jargon which means most people, 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: let me explain, a code yellow isn't a terrible need 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: to piss or some sort of crisis of moderate severity. 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: The yellow, according to Stephen Levy's Tell All book about Google, 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: refers to and I promise this is not a joke, 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: the color of a tank top that a former VP 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: of Engineering called Wayne Rosling used to wear during his 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: time at the company. It's essentially the equivalent of deafcom 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: one and activates, as Levy explained, a war room like 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: situation where workers are pulled from their desks and into 25 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: a conference room where they tackle the problem as a 26 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: top priority. Any other projects or concerns are sidelined and independently. 27 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: I've heard there are other colors like purple. I'm not 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: going to get into that, though, it's quite boring and 29 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: irrelevant to this situation. In emails released as part of 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: the Department of Justices antitrust case against Google, as a 31 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: previously mentioned Dishler laid out several contributing factors. Search query 32 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: growth was significantly behind forecast, the timing of revenue launches 33 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: was significantly behind, and he had this vague worry that 34 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: several advertiser specific in sector weaknesses existed in search. Now 35 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: I want to cover something because I've messed up, and 36 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: I really want to be clear about this. I've previously 37 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: and erroneously referred to the code yellow as something that 38 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: Gomes raised as a means of calling attention to the 39 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: proximity of Google's ad side getting a little too close 40 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: to search. I'm afraid the truth is extremely depressing and 41 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: so much grimmar. The code yellow was actually the rumble 42 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: of the goddamn rot economy, with Google's revenue arms sounding 43 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: the alarm that its golden goose wasn't laying enough eggs. Gomes, 44 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: a Googler of nineteen years that basically built the foundation 45 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: of modern search engines, should go down as one of 46 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: the few people in tech that actually fought for an 47 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 1: actual principle, and he was destroyed by a guy called 48 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: Prabaka Ragavan, a computer scientist class traitor that sided with 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: the management consultancy sect. More confusingly, one of their problems 50 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: was that there was insufficient growth in queries, as in 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: the amount of things that people were asking Google. It's 52 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: a bit like if Ford decided that things were going 53 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: poorly because their drivers weren't putting enough goddamn miles on 54 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: their trucks. This whole story has personally upset me, and 55 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: I think you're going to hear that in this but 56 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: going through these emails is just very depressing. 57 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: Anyway. 58 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: A few days beforehand, on February first, twenty nineteen, Kristen Gill, 59 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: then Google's VP business finance officer had emailed Shashi Thakker, 60 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: then Google's VP of Engineering, Search and Discover, saying that 61 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: the ADS team had been considering a code yellow to 62 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: close the search gap it was seeing, vaguely referring to 63 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: how critical that growth was to an unnamed company plan. 64 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: To be clear, this email was in response to Thaker 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: stating that there is nothing that the search team could 66 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: do to operate at the fidelity of growth that the 67 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: ADS department had demanded. Shashy Forward did the email to 68 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: Gomes asking if there's any way to discuss this with 69 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: Sandar Pashai, Google CEO, and declared that there was no 70 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: way he would sign up for a high fidelity business 71 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: metric for daily active users on search. Saker also said 72 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: something that I've been thinking about constantly since I read 73 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: these emails, that there was a good reason that Google's 74 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: founders separated search from ads. I want you to remember 75 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: that line for later. A day later, on February second, 76 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,119 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Thacker and Gomes shared their anxieties with Nick Fox, 77 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: a vice president of Search and Google assistant, entering a 78 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: multiple day long debate about Google's sun lust for growth. 79 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: This thread is a dark window into the world of 80 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: growth focus Tech, where the Kherr listed the multiple points 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: of disconnection between ads and Search, discussing how the search 82 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: team wasn't able to finally optimize engagement on Google without 83 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: hacking it, a term that means effectively tricking users into 84 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: spending more time on a site, and that doing so 85 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: would lead them to and I quote, abandoned work on 86 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: efficient journeys. In one email, Fox adds that there was 87 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: a pretty big disconnect between what finance and ads wants 88 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: and what Search was doing. Every part of this story 89 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: pisses me off so much. When Gomes pushed back on 90 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: the multiple requests for growth, Fox added that all three 91 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: of them were responsible for Search and that Search was 92 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: and again I quote, the revenue engine of the company, 93 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: and that bartering with the ads and finance teams was 94 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: now potentially the new reality of their jobs. On February sixth, 95 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Gomes said that he believed that Search was 96 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: getting too close to the money and ended his email 97 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: by saying that he was concerned that growth is all 98 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: that Google was thinking about. On March twenty second, twenty nineteen, 99 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: Google VP of Product Management Darshan Cantac would declare the 100 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: end of the Code Yellow. The thread mostly consisted of 101 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: congratulatory emails until Gomes made the mistake of responding congratulating everyone, 102 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: saying that the plans architected as part of the Code 103 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: Yellow would do well throughout the year. Enter Probarka Ragavan, 104 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: then Google's head of Ads and the true mastermind behind 105 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: the Code Yellow, who would respond curtly saying that the 106 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: current revenue targets were addressed by heroic RPM engineering and 107 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: that the core query softness continued without mitigation, a very 108 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: clunky way of saying that despite these changes, query growth 109 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: was not happening at the rate he needed it to. 110 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: A day later, Gomes emailed Fox Andhaker an email he 111 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: intended to center Ragavan. He led by saying that he 112 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: was annoyed both personally and on behalf of the search team. 113 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: In this very long email, he explained in arduous detail 114 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: how one might increase engagement with Google Search, but specifically 115 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: added that they could increase queries quite easily in the 116 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: short term, but only in user negative ways, like turning 117 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: off spell correction or ranking improvements, or placing refinements effectively 118 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: labels all over the page, adding that it was possible 119 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: that there are trade offs here between the different kinds 120 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: of user negativity caused by engagement hacking, that he was deeply, 121 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: deeply uncomfortable with this. He also added that this was 122 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: the reason he didn't believe that queries, as in the 123 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: amount of the things with people searching on Google, were 124 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: a good metric to measure search, and that the best 125 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: defense against the weaknesses of queries was to create compelling 126 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: user experiences that make users want to come back. 127 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: Crazy idea there, what if the product was good not 128 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: good enough? 129 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: Of prabaka, so little bit of history about Google here. 130 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: They regularly throughout the year do core updates to search. 131 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: These are updates that change the algorithm. Let's say, okay, 132 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: we're going to suppress this kind of thing. We can 133 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: elevate this kind of thing. And they are actually the 134 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: reason that search changes. It's why certain sites suddenly disappear 135 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: or reappear. It's why sites get a ton of traffic, 136 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: some don't get any, and so on and so forth. 137 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: But they do a lot of them. The one that's really. 138 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: Interesting and a little bastard and I went and looked 139 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: through pretty much the last decade of these, the one 140 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: that stood out to me it was the March twenty 141 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: nineteen core update to Search, which happened about a week 142 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: before the end of the code yellow, meaning that it's 143 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: very likely that this was a result of Prabaka's bullshit. 144 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: So this was expected to be one of the largest 145 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: updates to Search in a very long time, and I'm 146 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: quoting Search Engine Journal there. Yet when it launched, many 147 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: found that the update mostly rolled back changes and traffic 148 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: was increasing to sites that had been suppressed by previous updates, 149 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: like Google Search's Penguin update from twenty twelve that specifically 150 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: targeted spami search results. 151 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: There were others that were. 152 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: Seeing traffic as well from an update that happened on 153 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the first of August twenty eighteen that was a few 154 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: months after Gomes became head of Search. 155 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: While I'm guessing here, I really don't know. I do 156 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: not work for Google. 157 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: I do not have friends there. I think the timing 158 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: of the March twenty nineteen core update, along with the 159 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: traffic increases the previously suppressed sites that one hundred percent 160 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: were spamy seo nonsense. I think these suggest that Google's 161 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: response to the co jello was to roll back changes 162 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: that were made to maintain the quality of search. A 163 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: few months later, in May twenty nineteen, Google would roll 164 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: out a redesign of how ads were shown on Google Search, 165 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: specifically on mobile, replacing the bright green AD label and 166 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: URL color on ads with a tiny, little, bolded black 167 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: note that said ad in the smallest font you could 168 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,599 Speaker 1: possibly put there, with the link looking otherwise identical to 169 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: a regular search link. I guess that's how they managed 170 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: to start hitting their numbers, hah. And then in January 171 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Google would bring this change to desktop, and 172 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: the vergins John Porter would suggest that it made Google's 173 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: ads look just like search results now awesome. Five months later, 174 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: a little over a year after the code yellow situation, 175 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: Google would make Probakar Ragavan the head of Google Search, 176 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: with Jerry Dishler taking his place as the head of Ads. 177 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: After nearly twenty years of building Google Search, Gomes would 178 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: be relegated to the spe VP of Education at Google. Domes, 179 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: who was a critical part of the original team that 180 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: made Google Search work, who has been credited with establishing 181 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: the culture of the world's largest and most important search engine, 182 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: was chased out by a growth hungry managerial type, several 183 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: of them actually led by Probagar Ragavan, a management consultant 184 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: wearing an engineer costume. As a side note, by the way, 185 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: I use the term management consultant there as a pejorative 186 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: while he exhibits all the same being counting morally young 187 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: guided behaviors of a management consultant. From what I can tell, 188 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: Ragavan has never actually worked in that particular sector of 189 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: the economy. 190 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 2: But you know who has. 191 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: San Dhar Pishai, the CEO of Google, who previously worked 192 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: at McKinsey, arguably the most morally abhorrent company that's ever existed, 193 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: having played roles both in the two thousand and eight 194 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: financial crisis, where it encouraged banks to load up on 195 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: debt and floored mortgage backed securities, and the ongoing opioord crisis, 196 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: where it effectively advised Perdue Farmer on how to growth 197 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: hack sales of oxy content and extremely addictive painkiller. McKinsey 198 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: has paid nearly one billion dollars over several settlements due 199 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: to its work with Perdue. But I'm getting sidetracked, but 200 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: one last point. McKinsey is actively anti labor. When a 201 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: company brings in a McKinsey consultant, they're often there to 202 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: advise on how to cut costs, which inevitably means layoffs 203 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: and outsourcing. McKinsey is to the middle class. What fleshy 204 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: in bacteria is the skin. But back to the emails, 205 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: which are a stark example of the monstrous, disgusting rot economy, 206 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: the growth that all costs mindset that's dominating the tech ecosystem. 207 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: And if you take one thing away from this episode, 208 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: I want it to be the name Prabakar Ragavan and 209 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: an understanding that there are people responsible for the current 210 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: state of the Internet. These emails, which I really encourage 211 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: you to look, and if you go to where's youreed 212 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: dot at, you'll be able to see a newsletter that 213 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: has links to them. Well, these emails tell a dramatic 214 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: story about how Google's finance and advertising teams, led by Ragavan, 215 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: with the blessing of CEO Sandhar Pashai, the McKinsey guy, 216 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: actively worked to make Google worse to make the company 217 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: more money. This is exactly what I mean when I 218 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: talk about the economy, an illogical, product destroying mindset that 219 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: turns products you love into torturous frustrating quasi tools that 220 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: require you to fight the company to get the thing 221 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: you want. Ben Gomes was instrumental in making Search work 222 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: both as a product and a business. He joined the 223 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: company in nineteen ninety nine, a time long before Google 224 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: established dominance in the field, and the same year when 225 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: Larry Page and Sergey Britain tried to sell the company 226 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: to Excite for one million dollars, only to walk away 227 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: after Vinnard Coosler and Excite investor and co founder of 228 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: some Microsystems that's now a VC who tried to stop 229 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: people going to a beach in Halfman Bay, Well, he 230 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: tried a low ball and with a seven hundred and 231 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars offer also known as a one hundred 232 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: square foot apartment in San Francisco. In an interview with 233 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: Fast Companies Harry McCracken from twenty eighteen, Gomes freyed Google's 234 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: challenge as taking the page rank algorithm from one machine 235 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: to a whole bunch of machines, and they weren't very 236 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 1: good machines at the time. Despite his impact and tenure, 237 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: Gomes had only been made head of Search in the 238 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: middle of twenty eighteen after John Gillanderia moved to Apple 239 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: to work on its machine learning and AR strategy. Domes 240 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: had been described as Google's searches are beloved for his 241 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: ability to communicate across Google's many quite decentralized apartments. Every 242 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: single article I've read about Gomes and his tenure at 243 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: Google spoke of a man deeply ingrained in the foundation 244 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: of one of the most important technologies ever made. A 245 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,599 Speaker 1: man who had dedicated decades to maintaining a product with 246 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: a and I quote Gomes here guiding light of serving 247 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: the user and using technology to do that. 248 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,239 Speaker 2: And when finally given the keys. 249 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: To the kingdom the ability to elevate Google Search even further, 250 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: he was rap fucked by a series of rotten careerists 251 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: trying to please Wall Street, led by Provakar Ragavan. Do 252 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: you want to know what Provacar Ragavan's old job was? 253 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: What Probacar Ragavan the new head of Google Search, the 254 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: guy that ran Google Search, that runs Google Search right now, 255 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: that is running Google Search into the goddamn ground. 256 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 2: Do you want to know what his job was? 257 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: His job before Google, He was the head of search 258 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: for god damn Yahoo from two thousand and five through 259 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: two thy and twelve when he joined the company. When 260 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: Probakar Ragavan took over Yahoo Search, they held a thirty 261 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: point four percent market share, not far from Google's own 262 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: thirty six point nine percent and miles ahead of the 263 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: fifteen point seven percent that Microsoft's MSN Search had. By 264 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: May twenty twelve, Yahoo was down to just thirteen point 265 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: four percent and had shrunk for the previous nine consecutive months, 266 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: and was being beaten by Eva, the newly released BING. 267 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: That same year, Yahoo had the largest layoffs in its 268 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: corporate history, shedding two thousand employees, or fourteen percent of 269 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: its overall workforce. The man who deposed, Ben Gomes, someone 270 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: who worked on Google Search from its very beginnings, was 271 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: so shit at his job that in two thousand and nine, 272 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: Yahoo effectively threw in the towel on its own search tech, 273 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: instead choosing to license Bing's engine in a ten year deal. 274 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: If we take a long view of things, this likely 275 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: precipitated the overall decline of the company, which went from 276 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: being worth one hundred and twenty five billion dollars at 277 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: the peak of the dot com boom to being sold 278 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: to Verizon for four point eight billion dollars in twenty seventeen, 279 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: which is roughly a three thousand square foot apartment in 280 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: San Francisco. With Search no longer a priority in making 281 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: less money for the company, Yahoo decided to pivot into 282 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: Web two point zero and original content, making sum bats 283 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: that paid off, but far far too many that did not. 284 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: It spent one point one billion dollars on Tumblr in 285 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, only for Verizon to sell it for just 286 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: three million dollars in twenty nineteen. It put Zimbra in 287 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven ostensibly to complete with the new 288 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: Google Apps productivity suite, only to sell it for a 289 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: reported fraction of the original purchase price to VMware a 290 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: few years later. That's not his fault, but nevertheless, Yahoo 291 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: was a company without a mission, a purpose, or an objective. Nobody, 292 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: and I'll speculate even though his leading the company really 293 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: knew what it was and what it did. Anyway, just 294 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: a big shout out right now to Kura Swisher, who 295 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: referred to Pradaka as well respected. When he moved from 296 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: Yahoo to Google. He absolutely nailed at Kara bang up job. 297 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: In an interview with zd and ets Dan Farber from 298 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and five, Ragavan spoke of his intent to 299 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: align the commercial incentives of a billion content providers with 300 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: social good intent while at Yahoo, and his eagerness to 301 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: inspire the audience to give more data. 302 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: What anyway before that, It's it's actually hard. 303 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: To find out exactly what Ragava and did, though according 304 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: to ZDNA, he spent fourteen years doing search and data 305 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: mining research ibm MM. In April twenty eleven, The Guardian 306 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: ran an interview with Ragavan that called him Yahoo's secret weapon, 307 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: describing his plan to make rigorous scientific research and practice 308 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: to inform Yahoo's business from email to advertising, and how 309 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: under then CEO Carol Bart's the focus had shifted to 310 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: the direct development of new products. It speaks of Ragavan's 311 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: scientific approach and his steady process based logic to innovation 312 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: that is very different to the common perception the ideas 313 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: and development are more about luck and spontaneity. A sentence 314 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: that I'm only reading to you because I really need 315 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: you to hear how stupid it sounds and how specious 316 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: some of the tech press. 317 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: Used to be. 318 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: Frankly, this entire article is ridiculous, so utterly vacuous, that 319 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm actually astonished I don't want to name the reporter. 320 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 2: I feel bad. 321 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: What about Ragavan's career made this feel right? How has 322 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: nobody connected these thoughts before? I have a day job, 323 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: I run a PR firm, I am a blogger with 324 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: a podcast, and I'm the one who said, yeah, okay, 325 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: drag Uller is now the CEO of the Blood Bank. 326 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: Nobody saw this. Nobody saw this at the time. I 327 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: just feel a bit crazy. I feel a bit crazy. 328 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: But to be clear, this was something written several years 329 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: after Yahoo had licensed its search technology to Microsoft in 330 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 1: a financial deal that the next CEO, Marissa Maya, who 331 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: replaced Barts, was still angry about for years. Ragavan's reign 332 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: as what zd Neat referred to as the search Master 333 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: was one so successful that it ended up being replaced 334 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: by a search engine that not a single person in 335 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: the world enjoys saying out loud. The Guardian article ran 336 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: exactly one year before dramatic layoffs at Yahoo that involved 337 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: firing entire divisions worth of people, and four months before 338 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: Carol Barts would be fired by telephone by then chairman 339 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: Roy bost. Her replacement Scott Thompson, who previously served as 340 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: president of PayPal. Would last a whole five months in 341 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: the role before he was replaced by former Google executive 342 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: Marissa Mayer, in part because it emerged he lied on 343 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: his resume about having a computer science degree. 344 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,479 Speaker 2: Hey, Brobaka, did you not notice that anyway? Whatever? 345 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: Barts joined Yahoo in two thousand and nine, so about 346 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: four years into Broba Kha's reign of terror, I guess, 347 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: and she joined in the aftermath of its previous CEO, 348 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: Jerry Yang, refusing to sell the company to Microsoft for 349 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: forty five billion dollars. In her first year, she laid 350 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: off hundreds of people and struck a deal that I've 351 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: mentioned before to power Yahoo Search using Microsoft's being search 352 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: engine Tech, with Microsoft paying Yahoo eighty eight percent of 353 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: the revenue a game from searches. A deal made Yahoo 354 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: a couple hundred million dollars for handing over the keys 355 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: and the take to its most high traffic platform. As 356 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: I previously stated, when Brabakhar Ragavan, Yahoo's secret weapon was 357 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: doing his work, Yahoo Search was so valuable that it 358 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: was replaced by Bing its sole value. In fact, I 359 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: mean maybe I'm being a little unfair. There's a way 360 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: of looking at this that you could say that Yahoo's 361 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: entire value at the end of his career was driven 362 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: by nostalgia and association with days before he worked there. Anyway, 363 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: thanks to the state of modern search, it's actually very, 364 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: very difficult to find much about Ragavan's history. It took 365 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: me hours of digging through Google and at one point 366 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: being embarrassingly to find three or four articles that went 367 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: into any depth about him. But from what I've gleaned, 368 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: his expertise lies primarily in failing upwards ascending through the 369 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: ranks of technology on the momentum from the explosions he's coursed. 370 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: In a wide interview from twenty twenty one, GLAD handler 371 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: Stephen Levy said Ragavan isn't the CEO of Google, he 372 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: just run the place, and described his addition to the 373 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: company as a move from research to management. While Levy 374 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: calls him a world class computer scientist who has authored 375 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: definitive text in the field, which is true, he also 376 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: describes Ragavan as choosing a management track, which definitely tracks 377 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: with everything I found out about him. Ragavan proudly declares 378 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: that Google's third party ad tech plays a critical role 379 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: in keeping journalism alive, and a really shitty answer to 380 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: a question that was also made at a time when 381 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: he was in aggressively incentivizing search engine optimized content, and 382 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: a year after he'd deposed someone who actually gave a 383 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: shit about search. Under Ragavan, Google has become less reliable 384 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: and it is dominated by search engine optimization and just 385 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: outright spam. And I've said this before, but look, we 386 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: complain about the state of Twitter under Elon Musk and 387 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: justifiably he's a vile, anti, semi racist bigger. We all 388 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: know this. It's fully true. We can say a million times. However, 389 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: I'd argue that Ragavan, by extension some Ar Pashai deserve 390 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: one hundred times more criticism. They've done unfathomable damage to society. 391 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: You really can't fix the damage they've been doing and 392 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: the damage they'll continue to do, especially as we go 393 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: into an election. Ragavan and his cronies worked to oust 394 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: Ben Gomes, a man who dedicated a good portion of 395 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: his life to making the world's information more accessible, in 396 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: the process burning the Library of Alexandria to the goddamn 397 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: ground so that Sundar Pashai could make more than two 398 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars a year, and Ragavan a Manager High 399 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: by Sundar Pashai, a former McKinzie man. The King of 400 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: Managers is an example of everything wrong with the tech industry. 401 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: Despite his history as a true computer scientist with actual 402 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: academic credentials, Ragavan chose to bulldoze actual workers, people who 403 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: did things, and people that care about technology and replace 404 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: them with horrifying toadies that would make Google more profitable 405 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: and less useful. Since Prabakar took the reins of Google 406 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, Google search has dramatically declined with these 407 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: core search updates I mentioned, allegedly made to improve the 408 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: quality of results, having the adverse effect increasing the prevalence 409 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: of spammy shitty search optimized content. 410 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: It's frustrating. The anger you hear in my voice. 411 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: The emotion is because I've read all of these antitrust emails. 412 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: I have gone through this guy's history, and I've read 413 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: all the things about Ben Gomes too. Every article about 414 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: Ben Gomes where they interviewed, is this guy just having 415 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: these dreamy thoughts about the future of information and the 416 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: complexity of delivering it at high speed. 417 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 2: Every interview with Ragavan. 418 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: Is some vague bullshit about how important data is it's 419 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: so goddamn offensive to me. And all of this stuff 420 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: happening is just one example of what I think are 421 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: probably hundreds of things happening across startups or that have 422 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: happened across startups in the last ten or fifteen years, 423 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: and big tech two and it's because the people running 424 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: the tech industry are no longer those who build Tim 425 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: Larry Page and Sergey Brin left Google in December twenty nineteen, 426 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: the same year, by the way as the Code Yellow thing, 427 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: and while they remained as co controlling shareholders, they clearly 428 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: don't give a shit about what Google means anymore. Propakar 429 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: Ragavan is a manager, and his career, from what I 430 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: can tell, is mostly made up of did some stuff 431 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: at IBM, failed to make Yahoo anything of no, and 432 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: fucked up Google so badly that every news outlet has 433 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: run a story about how. 434 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: Bad it is. 435 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: This this is the result of taking technology out of 436 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: the hands of real builders and handing it to managers 437 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: at a time when management is synonymous with staying as 438 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: far away from actual work as possible. When you're a 439 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: do nothing looking to profit as much as possible, who 440 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: doesn't use tech, who doesn't care about tech and you 441 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: only care about growth. 442 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 2: Well, you're not a. 443 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: User, You're a parasite. And it's these parasites that have 444 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: dominated and are now draining the tech industry of its value. 445 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: They're driving it into a goddamn ditch. Ragavan's story is 446 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 1: unique in so far as the damage he's managed to inflict, 447 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: or if we're being exceptionally charitable, failed to avoid in 448 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: the case of Yahoo, on two industry defining companies, and 449 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 1: the fact that he did it without being a CEO 450 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: or founder is remarkable. Yeah, he's far from the only 451 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: example of a manager falling upwards. I'm going to editorialize 452 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: a bit here. I want to think about your job history. 453 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: I want you to think about the managers you've had. 454 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: I've written a lot about management, and specifically to do 455 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: with remote work and the whole thing around guys who 456 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: don't do work, who are barely in the office, telling 457 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: you you need to be in the office. This problem 458 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: is everywhere. Managers are everywhere, and managers aren't doing work. 459 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure someone will email me now and say, well, 460 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: I'm a manager and off I'll do work all the time. 461 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, make sure you do. 462 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: That's why you're emailing me telling me how good you 463 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: are at your job. People who actually do work don't 464 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: feel defensive about it. People who do things then are 465 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: part of the actual profit center. They don't need a 466 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: podcast to tell them they're good at their job. What 467 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: I think the problem is in modern American corporate society 468 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: is that management is no longer synonymous with actually managing people. 469 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 1: It's not about getting the people what they need. It's 470 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: not about organizing things and making things efficient and good. 471 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: It's not about execution. It's about handing work off to 472 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: other people and getting paid handsomely. And if you disagree 473 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: easy at better offline dot com, I will read your email, 474 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: maybe I'll even respond. But the thing is management has 475 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: become a poison in America. Managers have become poisonous because 476 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: managers are not actually held to any kind of standard. No, 477 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: only the workers who do the work are. What happened 478 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: to Ben Gomes is one of the most disgusting, disgraceful 479 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: things to happen in the tech industry. It's an absolute joke. 480 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: Ben Gomes was a goddamn hero. And I really need 481 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: you to read the news there and read these emails. 482 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: I need you to see how many times him and 483 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: Thakka Great Guy as well were saying, hey, growth is 484 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: bad for search. The thing that Ben Gomes was being 485 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: asked to do was increase queries on Google, the literal 486 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: amount that people's search. There are many ways of looking 487 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: at that and thinking, oh shit, that's not what you want. 488 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: Surely you don't want no queries. You don't want people 489 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: not using it at all, but queries going upwards. Lennearly 490 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: suggests that if you're not magic, get to use the growth. 491 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: At least the people are not getting what they want 492 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: on the first try, which, by the way, kind of 493 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: feels like how Google is nowadays when you go to 494 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: Google and the first result and the second result, and 495 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: the fifth result and the tenth result just don't get 496 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: what you need because it's all that SEO crap. Now, 497 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: this is all theorizing. But what I think prabagar Ragavan 498 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: did was I think he took off all the fucking 499 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: guidelines on Google Search. I think he rolled back changes 500 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: specifically to make search, to increase queries, to give Google 501 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: more chance to show you adverts. I am guessing don't 502 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: have a source telling me this, but the pattern around 503 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: the core search updates. The fact that Google Search started 504 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: getting worse toward the middle and end of twenty nineteen 505 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 1: and unquestionably dipped in twenty twenty. Well, that's when Prabakar 506 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: took over, That's when the big man took the reins. 507 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: That's when Drac Killer got his job at the blood bank. 508 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: And this is the thing. There's very little that you 509 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: and I can actually do about this. But what we 510 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: can do is say names like Probagar Ragavan a great 511 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: deal of times so that people like this can be known, 512 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: so that the actions of these scurrilous assholes can be 513 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: seen and heard and pointed at and spat upon. I'm 514 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: not suggesting spitting on anyone, no violent acts. No can 515 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: be pissy on the internet like the. 516 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: Rest of us. Now I'm ranting. I realize i'm ranting, 517 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: but this subject, really, it really got to me. But 518 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 2: it's not the only one. 519 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: In the next episode, I'm going to conclude this sordid 520 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: three part fiasco with a few more examples. And how 521 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: many of these managers, these bean counters, devoid of imagination 522 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: or ability or anything of note save for that utter 523 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: slug likability. To protect oneself, I want to talk about 524 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: how these people manage to obfiscate their true intentions by 525 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: pretending to be engineers, by pretending to be technologists, and pretending. 526 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: To be innovators. 527 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: I want to tell you all about how Adam Masseri 528 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: destroyed Instagram, and I want to tell you how little 529 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: Sam Altman has achieved other than making him and his 530 00:29:47,840 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: friends rich. See you next time. Thank you for listening 531 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better 532 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can check out more 533 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: of his music and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, 534 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: M A T T O S O W s ki 535 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: dot com. You can email me at easy at better 536 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: offline dot com, or check out better Offline dot com 537 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: to find my newsletter and more links to this podcast. 538 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. 539 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 2: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For 540 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 541 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 542 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.