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Speaker 1: So one of the questions I constantly we get here?

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Speaker 1: I think I've shared that with you with the audience

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Speaker 1: many a time, And there's a lot of ways we

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Speaker 1: can answer the how did we get here? How did

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Speaker 1: we get here? As far as the Democratic parties concerned,

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Speaker 1: how did we get here? In the state of media.

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Speaker 1: Then there's the how did the conservative movement get to

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Speaker 1: a point where it became Donald Trump? And what is

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Speaker 1: the conservative and what's even the definition of Conservative Today,

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Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite conversations with my friends

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Speaker 1: Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes and and so in that spirit,

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Speaker 1: my guest today, Jason's Engerly, has a new book out

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Speaker 1: that at first Blush is going to seem like it's

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Speaker 1: a biography of Tucker Carlson, which it is not, But

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Speaker 1: it is an attempt to answer this question. First of all,

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Speaker 1: Jason's with me now, and Jason, I have to say

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Speaker 1: I love the title of your book. I think the

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Speaker 1: title of your book. You know, it's like titles matter

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Speaker 1: a lot, hated by all the right people. Right which

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Speaker 1: is it does? It's Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of

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Speaker 1: the Conservative mind. But your book is an attempt more

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Speaker 1: at trying to understand it. How did conservatism find its

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Speaker 1: way to Trump or vice versa. Less about Tucker Carlson.

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Speaker 1: But Carlson's your vehicle for the conversation. Is is that

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Speaker 1: that I described the book correctly? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 3: I mean I think Tucker serves as kind of this

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Speaker 3: hopefully you know, compelling vehicle to tell the history the

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Speaker 3: last sort of thirty years of conservative media and conservative

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Speaker 3: politics because he started in such a different place from

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Speaker 3: where he's wound up, and I think his journey in

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Speaker 3: the various stops along the way, you know, kind of

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Speaker 3: reveals a lot about the incentive structure that exists in

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Speaker 3: both conservative media and conservative politics that has created the

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Speaker 3: situation we're now in.

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Speaker 1: Before I get to the larger issue here, but Tucker Carlson,

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Speaker 1: the individual, those of us that have had relationships with

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Speaker 1: him at different points in time in his professional life,

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Speaker 1: you all have the same question what happened to Tucker?

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Speaker 1: And I imagine you you heard various explanations. How much

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Speaker 1: of it do you think? As you were pursuing this,

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Speaker 1: I was, I was having this conversation with my wife,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I wrote a biography of Barack Obama,

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Speaker 1: I always one of my through line observations, and it

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Speaker 1: just was early on in my research, was, you know,

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Speaker 1: how the relationship his white grandmother had with him and

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Speaker 1: the sort of the political lessons he took from her.

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Speaker 1: They weren't necessarily political lessons, but what he took and

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Speaker 1: sort of made him a bit more risk averse and

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Speaker 1: just sort of navigating two worlds. Richie wrote his own

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Speaker 1: book about it, but also, you know, but you can't

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Speaker 1: on when you're writing about Obama. That's a part of

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Speaker 1: the story Tucker Carlson's origin story. I can tell you,

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Speaker 1: ever since I read about the abandonment of Tucker by

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Speaker 1: his mother at at a young age, it has been

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Speaker 1: I can't unhear that, And it's at the core of

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Speaker 1: everything I get when I think about, well, why does

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Speaker 1: Tucker do this that or the other thing? How much

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Speaker 1: does did that? I guess what I'm saying is like,

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Speaker 1: how much did the personal journeys of Tucker Carlson and

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Speaker 1: the professional journeys? How did you sort of both disaggregate

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Speaker 1: that and messhit if you will.

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Speaker 3: And I think I was more interested in the professional

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Speaker 3: journey than the personal journey. I mean, obviously, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you're doing kind of if you were a psychoanalyzed Tucker,

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Speaker 3: I think his mom leaving at the age of five

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Speaker 3: or six, and.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a total it's the single most important thing

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Speaker 1: to understanding particularly and I'm going to speak for you know,

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Speaker 1: it's an important explanation for my wife and understanding why

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Speaker 1: he says and thinks the things he does about women.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can I can definitely see that. I think

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Speaker 3: there's certainly list truth to that and just the journey

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Speaker 3: it sent him on. And I agree with that. I

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Speaker 3: definitely write about it in the book, but it's not

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Speaker 3: I don't. I don't dwell on it too much because, well, Tucker,

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Speaker 3: I think is a really interesting character and interesting person.

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Speaker 3: He's not to me, at least, he's not that interesting,

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Speaker 3: you know, Barack Obama, world historical, you know figure Tucker

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Speaker 3: Carlson maybe not so much. So I think I wanted

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Speaker 3: to write about him more because of just the role.

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Speaker 1: He's played the institutions.

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Speaker 3: He's been a part of, kind of the larger story

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Speaker 3: he tells, you know, when look if he runs for

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Speaker 3: president in twenty thirty two, the person writing the book

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Speaker 3: then can get a little bit more into the details

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Speaker 3: of his.

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Speaker 2: Mom and his dad and all that.

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Speaker 3: But I do, and it is interesting, and he is

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Speaker 3: an interesting guy for that reason, and I do, And

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Speaker 3: you're right what your wife says, Actually, maybe I should

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Speaker 3: have considered a little bit more. It probably does have

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Speaker 3: a fair amount to do with his you know, thoughts

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Speaker 3: about women and gender roles.

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Speaker 2: And the like.

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Speaker 3: But I think that it's a more interested kind of

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Speaker 3: in his relationship with Bill Crystal than I am in

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Speaker 3: his relationship with his mom, because I think that in

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Speaker 3: a weird way. I mean, someone once told me that

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Speaker 3: the two most despised figures and most important figures in

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Speaker 3: Tucker's life are his mom and Bill Crystal. And I

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Speaker 3: think sort of his relationship with Bill Crystal, Yeah, accounts

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Speaker 3: for a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of what he's doing today as well.

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Speaker 1: So his anger at Bill Crystal is it? Is?

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Speaker 2: It?

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Speaker 1: Is? It? Is it a personal vendetta? Is it? What

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Speaker 1: do you think?

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Speaker 2: You like?

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Speaker 1: You understand it? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I do, I think so. I mean, I think that

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Speaker 3: Tucker has told other people, and I think himself this

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Speaker 3: story about his his journey and about his changes, and

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Speaker 3: you know, it starts with him as a young, you know,

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Speaker 3: very good magazine reporter at the Weekly Standard Bill Crystal,

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Speaker 3: the magazine that Bill Crystal founded, and that maybe he

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Speaker 3: was Tucker's first boss. And Tucker was a fairly you know,

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Speaker 3: run of the mill conventional conservative, maybe a little libertarian,

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Speaker 3: definitely a contrarian, but was very much with kind of

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Speaker 3: where the Weekly Standard was in terms of the things

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Speaker 3: that advocated for, including a very you know, aggressive foreign policy,

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Speaker 3: and Tucker supported the Iraq War, and you know, and

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Speaker 3: to his credit, he was one of the first Conservatives

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Speaker 3: to kind of renounce his support and recognize it for

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Speaker 3: the catastrophe that it was. But over the years, he's

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Speaker 3: kind of retconned his relationship to the Standard until Bill Crystal,

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Speaker 3: and he now kind of tells this story that he

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Speaker 3: was this young, naive writer who was used by the

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Speaker 3: neo cons to support the war in Iraq, to support

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Speaker 3: free trade deals, to support open borders, and that he's

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Speaker 3: now kind of making amends for that. His his his

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Speaker 3: stances today in some way our penance for what he

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Speaker 3: did earlier, now that he knows better, now that you know,

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Speaker 3: the scales have fallen away from his eyes, and Crystal

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Speaker 3: just looms so large in that story. And you know,

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Speaker 3: in recording the book and talking to plenty of people

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Speaker 3: who Tucker worked with and all that, Like, I don't

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Speaker 3: think that I don't think Crystal brainwashed him into supporting

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Speaker 3: the Iraq war. I don't think Crystal was this you know,

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Speaker 3: puppet master who was controlling Tucker. I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: Tucker was capable of reaching his own opinions.

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Speaker 1: But I think.

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Speaker 3: To come to the critique that he has of kind

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Speaker 3: of you know, the political media elite, he kind of

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Speaker 3: needs a stand in, and I think Crystal has become

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Speaker 3: that for him and just and he really he looms

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Speaker 3: very large, just in Tucker's psyche and and in Tucker's

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Speaker 3: own explanations for why he's going to reach this point.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, I think why your book works in trying

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Speaker 1: to use Tucker as a vehicle to explaining sort of

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Speaker 1: how did how did what people call the Conservative party

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Speaker 1: today end up here? And I say that because we're

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Speaker 1: so far away from sort of the definition of we're

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Speaker 1: so far away from the George Will conservatism, which maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm being too overly simplistic, but I think that's what

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Speaker 1: most people, you know, in the eighties and nineties certainly

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Speaker 1: viewed that. You know, he was George Will was the

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Speaker 1: intellectual avatar of conservative right.

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Speaker 2: He was like a.

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Speaker 3: Querkian conservative, I mean sort of you know, trying to

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Speaker 3: prove h.

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Speaker 1: And Tucker Carlson with his bow tie and his is

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Speaker 1: you know, attempting the nineties to virtue signal who he was,

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Speaker 1: was clearly trying to say, Hey, I'm I'm a younger

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Speaker 1: version and maybe a cooler version of George Will. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to make conservatism cool. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna but but this is my path. It's funny

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Speaker 1: that he like saves his vehement venom for Crystal when

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Speaker 1: in public life, it was clear to me he was

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Speaker 1: trying so hard to be George Will. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean I mean literally the bow tie, you know,

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Speaker 3: right down like yeah, I mean, you know, and he

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Speaker 3: got that from watching Will on the David Brewer Show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No,

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Speaker 3: he definitely modeled himself. And it maybe I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: he's a waspy prep school kid. It might have been

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Speaker 3: hard for him to pass as a Jewish Neocon. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: he used to say he was an Episcopalian Neocon. I

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Speaker 3: think he was trying to sort of find this, uh

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Speaker 3: you know, blend the two together. But yeah, he was

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Speaker 3: very much, you know, a part of the not just

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Speaker 3: the conservative establishment, but like the political and media establishment.

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Speaker 3: I mean he was, he was really he's very much

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Speaker 3: a creature of Washington, and he is.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I will look, I'm going to defend

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Speaker 1: his outsider credential here a minute, and it goes to

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Speaker 1: something that I've observed of Gavin Newsom, and I think

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Speaker 1: Tucker falls into this category. So Tucker was raised a

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Speaker 1: Blue blood. Would you agree with that? Yeah, yes, but

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Speaker 1: in kind of a weird way. But yeah, correct, I mean,

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Speaker 1: Gavin News some same thing you are, you have you

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Speaker 1: don't personally have money. You actually your childhood was you know,

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Speaker 1: you didn't have certain things that all the other rich

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Speaker 1: kids have. But you got the same education as the

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Speaker 1: rich kids. You end up at the same camps, you

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Speaker 1: got the same job access, college access. So it's like

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Speaker 1: it's it's such a strange thing. Like I think Gavin's

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Speaker 1: gonna have a hard time with this when he starts

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Speaker 1: running for president in that he is, he is going

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Speaker 1: to you know, he got all the benefits of being wealthy,

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Speaker 1: but except for the money part, right, And that was

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Speaker 1: so Tucker was always an outsider, even when he was

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Speaker 1: invited on the inside. And I do you think he

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Speaker 1: wore that on his sleeve as a badge of honor.

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Speaker 1: That was always my sense of him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the question of Tucker and money is

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Speaker 3: an interesting one because look, obviously his mother was an

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Speaker 3: heiress the Miller family fortune from California, and then his

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Speaker 3: stepmother is was an heiress you know, the Swanson family

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Speaker 3: food frozen food fortune. But it's not clear how much

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Speaker 3: money was left by the time by the time Tucker

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Speaker 3: came along, I mean one his mother I think left

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Speaker 3: him one dollar in her will, and then his stepmother.

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Speaker 3: I think maybe the family portion had been depleted a

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Speaker 3: little bit. I mean he was not for though, That's

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Speaker 3: what I mean.

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Speaker 1: No, but he was also not He was not a

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Speaker 1: rich kid, even though he was raised like a rich kid.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but I think once I mean, putting aside

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Speaker 3: his childhood, I think once he got to Washington and

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Speaker 3: once he started his professional life there, Like he was

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Speaker 3: very much a member of the club, but he.

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Speaker 1: Was in a hurry. He was definitely in a hurry.

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Speaker 1: He took whatever show wanted to put him on right,

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Speaker 1: which is how he ended. Definitely he was, Yeah, he was.

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Speaker 1: He was ambitious.

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Speaker 3: But you know, he would get invited to the dinner

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Speaker 3: parties and the cocktail I mean the Georgetown cocktail party

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Speaker 3: that everybody sort of you know, makes fun of. Like

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Speaker 3: I don't know how much does exist, but Tucker was.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you look at the people he was friends with.

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Speaker 3: You look at the people whose weddings he went to.

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Speaker 3: I mean you look at like the attendants at the

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Speaker 3: launch party for the Daily Caller and it's a it's

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Speaker 3: a it's a list of basically all of his enemies today,

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Speaker 3: all the people he you know, attacks for being members

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Speaker 3: of legacy media and the political elite. I mean, that

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Speaker 3: was that was the world that he lived in. And

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Speaker 3: he actually lived in d C. I mean, he wasn't

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Speaker 3: one of these like Colon Powell Republicans out in McLean.

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Speaker 1: He was actually in the.

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Speaker 3: City he loved.

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Speaker 1: He loved DC.

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Speaker 3: You know, he would I mean I remember him, you know,

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Speaker 3: encouraging people to live there, which was not something you

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Speaker 3: typically got from you know, Conservatives or Republicans in Washington.

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Speaker 3: So I mean he had a very designated role within

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Speaker 3: that world. Like he was I think I think in

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Speaker 3: the book, I say he was like he was the

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Speaker 3: invited skunk at the garden party. I mean, people liked

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Speaker 3: him because he was going to say some thing that

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Speaker 3: was out tree or you know, you know, not sort

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Speaker 3: of hue to the kind of standard upper Northwest d

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Speaker 3: C liberal line.

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Speaker 1: But they liked him for that. It's like, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: just Tucker, you know, and they're kind of like, by

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Speaker 1: the way, you know, who else is described that way

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Speaker 1: in New York City before he started running for president.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Yes, why did you invite Donald Trump to parties? Right?

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Speaker 1: You know who he was, but you kind of wanted that. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, he'll liven things up and we need a

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Speaker 1: lively dinner party. You're not wrong about that. That's where

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Speaker 1: Tucker and Trump I think have a lot in common.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, I think so. And I think just

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Speaker 3: the they're populism kind of playing this role of you know,

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Speaker 3: class trader like they don't. I mean, you know, Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump always appears in a suit. Tucker still wears his

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Speaker 3: repties and his role life like. They're not trying. They're

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Speaker 3: not trying. You know, it's not John Kerry and the

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Speaker 3: hunting Jacket or anything. They you know, they they sort

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Speaker 3: of they have credibility in a way because they're not

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Speaker 3: pretending there's something they're not and they're able to say

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Speaker 3: I was in the rooms with these people. I saw

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Speaker 3: what they said about you when you weren't listening, and

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Speaker 3: I'm here to tell you this is what's happening. And

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Speaker 3: I think it's a pretty effective stick.

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Speaker 1: And yet here's a guy who was texting all these

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Speaker 1: terrible things about Donald Trump during January sixth and election

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Speaker 1: night twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's funny because a lot of people obviously

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Speaker 3: come back to those texts, and I think if you

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Speaker 3: you know, there is obviously a great difference in what

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Speaker 3: he said on air about Donald Trump and what he

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Speaker 3: was saying in those texts. At the same time, I

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Speaker 3: do think Tucker was a very His approach to Trump

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Speaker 3: during Trump's first presidency was very different from everyone.

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Speaker 2: Else at HAWKS.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he did not he was not sort of

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Speaker 3: the throne sniffer that you know Hannity was or Laura Ingram.

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Speaker 3: He clearly supported Trump's political project, but he he's he

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Speaker 3: kind of kept a certain distance from him personally. He

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Speaker 3: didn't engage in as much cul to personality stuff. But

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Speaker 3: the end of his presidency, like even on air, he

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Speaker 3: was he was pretty critical of Trump.

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Speaker 1: I mean during COVID, during the would pay this No.

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Speaker 1: That was always what made Tucker a compelling It was

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Speaker 1: almost TV Yeah, Hannity, Hannity was predictable. Tucker was more

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Speaker 1: like O'Reilly, a bit like O'Reilly. What made O'Reilly more

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Speaker 1: interesting than Hannity, you know, no, always know where he

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Speaker 1: was going to come now, yeah, you know, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know what he's going to do or see, And.

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Speaker 3: I think Tucker that was sort of the way I

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Speaker 3: think he dealt with Trump off air too. You know,

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Speaker 3: Hannity was the you know, the shadow White House.

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Speaker 4: You're doing great, mister president. Yeah, yeah, and really wanted

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Speaker 4: to be involved in everything. Loved going to the Oval office,

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Speaker 4: would call Trump all the time. You know, Tucker was

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Speaker 4: like famous at Fox for letting some of Trump's calls

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Speaker 4: go to voicemail.

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Speaker 1: He really he didn't want to be He didn't want.

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Speaker 3: To be identified too closely with Trump. You don't want

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Speaker 3: to be seen with Trump. Sometimes he just he was

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Speaker 3: he was careful about That's very different than the way

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Speaker 3: he's handling it now.

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Speaker 1: So you know, there the other aspect to Tucker that

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Speaker 1: I think for me, the more I think about it

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Speaker 1: and the more I read your book, the more I

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Speaker 1: understand why he has this some affinity for Trump is

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Speaker 1: that he's even at Fox when he first you know,

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Speaker 1: he had to do weekend Fox and Friends, right, he

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Speaker 1: was not considered good enough for the top slot. I

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Speaker 1: believe he was like a herd here. Yeah, I believe

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Speaker 1: he did Weekend Fox and Friends. As like they didn't

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Speaker 1: pay him. They're like he was willing to do it

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Speaker 1: for almost nothing because he just wanted to promote The

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Speaker 1: Daily Caller.

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Speaker 2: Is that? Is that?

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Speaker 3: What I like in my understanding is when he first

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Speaker 3: got to Fox, it was just a standard sort of

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Speaker 3: low paying contributor contract.

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Speaker 1: By the time he got the Fox and.

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Speaker 3: Friends, you know, for full time week gig, I think

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Speaker 3: I think it stepped up and pay. But it was

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Speaker 3: definitely he he would have worked at Fox for free.

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Speaker 3: I mean he was He really wanted to both promote

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Speaker 3: The Daily Caller and kind of maintain a to hold

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Speaker 3: in cable news because after you know, Fire, after getting

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Speaker 3: washed out at CNN and MSNBC, Fox is the only

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Speaker 3: place left. And I think he was he was really

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Speaker 3: happy when they took him on, and the little morsels

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Speaker 3: they would throw.

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Speaker 2: To him, he was happy to have.

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Speaker 1: Well he to me is the reminder that Fox is

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Speaker 1: bigger than the than the individuals. Does he know that still?

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Speaker 1: Because you know, essentially Fox was like, we can put

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Speaker 1: anybody on in primetime watch and they were kind of right.

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Speaker 1: They were well, they were right about that.

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Speaker 3: Like Jesse Waters obviously has you know, fantastic ratings seemingly.

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Speaker 1: And who is other than like a mid level producer

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Speaker 1: for O'Reilly At one point he decided to put on

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Speaker 1: air now that and that was.

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Speaker 3: Always Roger Ailes's theory of the case. I remember that

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Speaker 3: famous line, I could put a dead raccoon on the

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Speaker 3: air and I'd get better ratings than I did last year.

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Speaker 3: So that was that was definitely the way Fox operated.

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Speaker 3: But I do think the Tucker in part because his

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Speaker 3: rise at Fox occurred after Ales left. In a way,

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Speaker 3: he did become bigger than the network. He was allowed

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Speaker 3: to get away with things there that I think other

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Speaker 3: other stars had not been able to get away with them.

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Speaker 3: That was partly because the als was no longer there.

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Speaker 3: I think the other big difference is that when he

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Speaker 3: did leave Fox, I think a lot of people assumed

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Speaker 3: that he will disappear the same way Bill O'Reilly has disappeared,

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Speaker 3: the same way you know, Glenn Beck kind of has

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Speaker 3: Megan Kelly basically a little bit back now. But you know,

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Speaker 3: they would face kind of a diminishment of their standing,

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Speaker 3: and that really hasn't happened. He is, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I would argue he's actually more influential today than he was.

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Speaker 3: He's a kind of I think within trying to figure

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Speaker 3: that out within the Trump administration and I think within

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Speaker 3: kind of the MAGA universe. Yeah, I think he's become

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Speaker 3: I think he's become maybe more influential and just as

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Speaker 3: just as significant, if not more so, than he was

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Speaker 3: than he was when he was at Fox, because I mean,

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Speaker 3: and you can, I mean, look like you probably as

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Speaker 3: much better than I do, just the way media is changing.

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Speaker 3: I don't think he wanted to get fired from Fox, obviously,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sure he was very upset when it happened.

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Speaker 3: At the same time, it it was almost a mix.

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Speaker 3: It was kind of a blessing in disguise because he's

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Speaker 3: been able to sort of enter into this new world

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Speaker 3: that is becoming so important. He's gotten to head start

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Speaker 3: all the people at Fox. Cable News is, you know,

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Speaker 3: a dying medium, and he doesn't have to operate with

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Speaker 3: any I mean, he had very few guardrails at Fox

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Speaker 3: by the end, but now they're none, and that is

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Speaker 3: actually like a fairly big advantage in this, in this

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Speaker 3: in a certain moment, No.

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Speaker 1: There's no doubt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's he couldn't.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he could not have had Nick Flintez on

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Speaker 3: his show at Fox and now he can. I'm not

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Speaker 3: saying that's a good thing, but I think it it.

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Speaker 3: He has had to learn how to master the attention

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Speaker 3: economy a lot sooner than I think other people in

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Speaker 3: his you were in his position, have had to figure out.

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Speaker 3: And he's he's done it in such a way that

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Speaker 3: I think he's kind of setting himself up for a

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Speaker 3: longer run.

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Speaker 1: This episode of The Chuck Podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by Quints, and I love me some Quints. New Year,

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Speaker 1: with pieces truly made to last season after after season.

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Speaker 1: dot com slash chuck. So do you think he's the

463
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: natural air to rush? Now? You know, as we've been

464
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 1: all trying to figure out that even if play Travis

465
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: and Buck Sexton might have the Rush time slot.

466
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, think radio is not a.

467
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

468
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, I mean the way Rush kind

469
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 3: of had his relationship with Reagan and HW Bush and

470
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 3: then Bush. I think I think Tucker's relationship with Trump,

471
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 3: when I say he's influential, maybe more influential, I think

472
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 3: it's because he has the way he has just attached

473
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 3: himself to Trump now and his relationship with Vance, which

474
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 3: is I think even closer than it.

475
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: Is with Well he was at that that to me

476
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: seems to be fascinating that that's a real Do you

477
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: buy that that's real, That that's a real relationship. I

478
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 1: think it's a genuine relationship.

479
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 2: And I think that.

480
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 3: I don't think JD. Vans is vice president without Tucker.

481
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 3: I don't think Jady Vance is Center from Ohio without Tucker.

482
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 3: I mean the amount of airtime that Tucker gave him

483
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 3: when he was running for Ohio Senate on his show,

484
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 3: I think, among Ohio primary voters, probably the most important

485
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 3: show on television. There's certainly more than any local news show.

486
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 3: And then, in addition to that, and perhaps even more importantly,

487
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 3: the degree to which he lobbied Trump during that Senate

488
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 3: campaign to endorse jd Vance, which was something Trump did

489
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 3: not want to do because jd Vance had said so

490
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 3: many bad things about him. You know, Tucker and Don

491
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 3: Junior really put on a full court press and got jd.

492
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 3: Vance the endorsement at the end of that primary, which

493
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 3: and I don't think Javid Vance wins that primary without

494
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 3: Trump's endorsement. So the degree to which Tucker played a

495
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 3: role in getting Trump's endorsement, which I've been told was,

496
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: you know, a fairly substantial role.

497
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: That's important.

498
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 3: And then obviously during the twenty twenty four campaign, when

499
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 3: there were the deepstakes going on, you know, Tucker was

500
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 3: one of the biggest voices cheerleading for Vance. And look

501
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 3: like they are, they are so ideologically aligned right now.

502
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 3: I think I think you just look at sort of

503
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 3: the issues that Vance focuses on, the positions he stakes out,

504
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 3: and even just the stories he tells like they're they're

505
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 3: kind of ripped from the Tucker Carlson Show. There's there's

506
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 3: a lot of there's I think he kind of has

507
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 3: molded himself in some ways in Tucker's image.

508
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: Well, it goes to this you know, there's sort of right,

509
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: there's economic conservatism, religious conservatism, and cultural conservatism. And I

510
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: think where Tucker has his biggest influences on sort of

511
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: shaping what the cultural conservative movement cares about. Right, And

512
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: it's the whole grave incient Yeah, this is why. It's

513
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: what Rush Limbaugh did best. Right, Rush was not a

514
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: policy want He was not going to tell you how

515
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: to come up with an alternative on healthcare to to

516
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: go up against Obama. Right, that that's just not he

517
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 1: doesn't He didn't care about policy. He cared more about

518
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: his status, right, and his you know, and and ultimately right,

519
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: Tucker's personal status and the white male grievance sort of right,

520
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: inter he sort of interlocked, and he became this avatar

521
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: for grievance for white men. Yeah, oh definitely.

522
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, so much of his persona, so

523
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 3: much of mis appeal is about you know, white grievance,

524
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 3: similar to Trump, similar to Dance.

525
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: There really is white male grievance. It's not even just

526
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: white greens. Yeah, whatever, Yeah, I think that's right.

527
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, and there look like Tucker, I

528
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 3: mean in a way that I don't think Brush Limbaugh

529
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 3: was I think Tucker is. I think Tucker is smarter

530
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: than Russell INVA.

531
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 1: I think he I think he has like he's probably

532
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: reads intellectually a bit more curious that negatively, like, yeah,

533
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: I think Rush cared about golfing after he was done

534
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: with the show, where yeah, if Tucker is going to read.

535
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 3: You know, it is going to keep reading, like, you know,

536
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 3: got his joke about golfing is I think so when

537
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 3: people ask him, you know, do you golf, he says no,

538
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: I still like to have sex. So he's not a

539
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 3: big golf fan.

540
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 2: We know that much.

541
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, but Tucker does read. He's got I mean, he

542
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: does have like a pretty sort of compelling critique of

543
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 3: you know, consumer capitalism. I mean it's not it's not

544
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 3: all that dovetails with the grievance, but there there is,

545
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 3: you know, And I think that's one of the reasons

546
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 3: I think why he advanced. Are you know so simpatico

547
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: And they both are smart guys who read a lot,

548
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 3: who have sort of a more textured understanding of these things,

549
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 3: and say, like Donald Trump is just going to be

550
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 3: in this lizard brain populism. H Tucker advance or a

551
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 3: slightly more.

552
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: Because Tucker want to solve the problem. I get this

553
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: sense you didn't think he does.

554
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know the problem in someone is

555
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 3: what feeds his success, right, I mean so yeah, I

556
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: mean I I think if you could at the end

557
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 3: of the day, if you could sort of just say,

558
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 3: all right, we the United States can go back to

559
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties and you know what everything that that means,

560
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,239
Speaker 3: and maybe you won't be on your you know, your

561
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: podcast anymore. My guess is he would take that, you

562
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 3: would take that sort of trade. I mean, I do

563
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: think that he has like a very at this point

564
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 3: sincere vision of what he wants the country to be.

565
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 3: I don't think he's just saying the things he's saying

566
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 3: purely for ratings, I think, And I don't think he

567
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 3: just wants to be a podcaster. I think that he

568
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: has a larger a larger project and larger ambitions than.

569
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 2: What is what do you what is?

570
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: I mean, you know he also started a tobacco company.

571
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, does hease? Oh yeah, well that's.

572
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: Everything else too, right, Yeah, he wants the he wants

573
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 3: the manosphere to run things. No, but he I think

574
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 3: you know, he he has you know, a real sort

575
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: of preference for traditional gender roles and restricted rights for

576
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 3: you know, gay people, and and a country that a

577
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: lot whider than it is today, you know, filled with

578
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 3: legacy Americans or heritage Americans. I think that he, you know,

579
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: that that's something that he wants, and I think he

580
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: hopes that the elected officials that he supports, you know,

581
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 3: make that happen. And I think that you know, in

582
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: Trump and especially in advanced at least advance right now,

583
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 3: I think those are those are pretty good vehicles for that.

584
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: Actually, the more I cycled through my brain, Pat he's

585
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: more Pat Buchanan than Rush Limbo.

586
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Buchanan's a really important figure. And yet

587
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 3: he was probably very critical of Buchanan in the nineties.

588
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: I'm sure he did music. Yeah, well, I mean, look,

589
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 3: it's like the Weekly Standards mission in the nineteen nineties

590
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: was to like read Pat Buchanan out of the conservative movement.

591
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: But and I think this is actually quite sincere on

592
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: Tucker's part. When he saw what happened in Iraq and

593
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: when he got off the bandwagon very early, I think

594
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 3: he reassessed all of the people who he had been

595
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 3: sort of told we were wrong and hat. Buchanan was

596
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 3: first among them, and he started and he basically started

597
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: to wondering what else were they?

598
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: What were they right of?

599
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: Buchanan was right about Iraq? What else was he right about?

600
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: And you see, even going back to his MSNBC days,

601
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: he was pretty he really shifted on immigration early. Like

602
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 3: he was talking about building a border wall, you know,

603
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 3: back when he was on MSNBC, Like he in Buchanan

604
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 3: and Rachel Maddow would debate about it, and he and

605
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: Buchan would be talking about building the wall, and Matt

606
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 3: Now of course, would be against it. I think that

607
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: I think that the Iraq experience for him really was

608
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: you know, a pretty pretty important inflection point and kind

609
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 3: of changing his his ideological uh you know, just trajectory?

610
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: Did he is that?

611
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny that he blamed Bill Crystal for this,

612
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: but it was the Bush administration that really used and

613
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: abused reporters who were more than the Bush administration.

614
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 3: I mean, his best friend, the guy who now runs

615
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: his media company with him, Neil Tatel, was Scooter Libby's

616
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 3: chief of staff. He was in Dick Cheney's office. And yeah,

617
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: the degree to which he blames Bill crystal and not

618
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: NEI able to tell. Makes me think that there's a

619
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: little bit more going on there.

620
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: Well, is that the root of his anti Semitism that

621
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: he seems to be flirting with right now is that

622
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: is it all He's angry at Bill and Bill's Jewish.

623
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 3: This is a theory that people who know him well

624
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 3: have you know, offered to me that that it was

625
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 3: crystal and then just you know, beyond that, that basically

626
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: all the people he really disagreed with and who were

627
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 3: attacking him were Jewish neocons, and therefore a way that

628
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: he could needle them was to criticize Israel, and that

629
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: was sort of where it started. I don't think people

630
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: necessarily think that's what's driving it. Now that it is,

631
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: it is blossomed into something else.

632
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: I'm only enough to remember when you had guys like

633
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: Bob Novak and Pat Buchanan who were were openly critical

634
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: of of of unilateral of sort of blind support for

635
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: Israel militarily. They were, you know, and and they were

636
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: definitely in the in their party, but it wasn't like,

637
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny how we've allowed, you know, support

638
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: for Israel to become this litmus test on anti Semitism

639
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: when there used to be a bit more diversity in

640
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: both parties on this issue.

641
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, although I think I think Buchanan got sort

642
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 3: of hit with the anti semitism charged more than Novak did,

643
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 3: although I guess Novak got it a.

644
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: Little bit too. Tucker.

645
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. The way Tucker talks about Israel now, it's I

646
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: think he goes even further sometimes than where.

647
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: And this is where I don't think he believes half

648
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: of what he says, but he's looking for the reaction.

649
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: And I guess this is that to me, this is

650
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: the thing that you leave unresolved. And I would have

651
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: done the same thing, which is what does he believe?

652
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I look, it's impossible to know. I think what

653
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 3: he believes. And I think you see this, and this

654
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 3: is a real through line through conservative media is he

655
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: does not want to be out of step with the audience.

656
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: And you saw this, you know clearly in the texts

657
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 3: the Fox News texts during theinion that came out during

658
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: the dominion on lawsuit. You know, the way they're dealing

659
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: with January six, and they're all terrified of their audience.

660
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 3: And I think today Tucker is making the calculus that

661
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: the conservative audience and the energy and especially among younger

662
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 3: people is with critics of Israel with you know, borderline

663
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 3: anti Semitic critics of Israel, with neo Nazis like Nick Quintez.

664
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 3: He thinks that's where things are headed, and he wants

665
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: to make sure he's ahead of that. You know, he's

666
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: skating to where he thinks the fuck is man.

667
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: I'll just be honest, I guess I'm personally so resentful

668
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: of that kind of process. I mean, especially those of

669
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: us that are trying to build an information first you

670
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 1: know ecosystem, right, which is when you let the audience

671
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: be your managing editor. This is how we go down

672
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: this Nobody believes anything that they read or see.

673
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think he tried that for a little

674
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 3: bit of a little while the Daily Caller and realized

675
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: pretty quickly that that was that.

676
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: Was not going to be successful.

677
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: Now, early Daily Caller really wanted to be Yes, it

678
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: was certainly you know, it was going to jab at

679
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: legacy media whenever it could and play that card. But

680
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: they seemed genuinely interested in reporting stories. Oh yeah, and

681
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: that was the whole theory of it.

682
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 3: It was gonna you know, he gave that speech at

683
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 3: Sea Pack in two thousand and nine where you know,

684
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 3: he said nice things about the New York Times, and

685
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: he had that famous quoting of accuracy. Isn't your goal

686
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 3: as a media company, like you have no future, you

687
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 3: won't succeed. But I think he realized pretty early on,

688
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 3: just by looking at the traffic numbers, that there wasn't

689
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: an audience for that among conservative media, you know, consertive

690
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: media consumers, and he shifted and and he's I think

691
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: that in a lot of ways is the story of

692
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 3: you know, the past fifteen years, both for him and

693
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 3: for lots of other figures, just wanting to be in

694
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: sync with what you know, viewers and readers are expecting.

695
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: Well, so this gets into an unanswerable question, but I'm

696
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: gonna ask it anyway, which is what is the definition

697
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: of conservatism in real America? I e. Those that don't

698
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: you know versus how you and I are defining it?

699
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: Maybe by what? But the programs that are geared towards conservatives, right, like,

700
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: the programs seem a lot more radical than the conservatives

701
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: I interact with on a daily basis.

702
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: Well, I guess it depends on what concerns you're interacting with, right,

703
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 3: I mean, he I mean conservatism, you know, it's it's

704
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 3: not recognizable.

705
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: What it was pre Trump.

706
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 3: And you know, I think there are people who are

707
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 3: opposed to Trump who are trying to maintain kind of

708
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 3: they believe that there's a future or there is a

709
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 3: conservative movement that's independent of Trump. And you know, you

710
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 3: see that at like you know, like you mentioned, I

711
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 3: think like Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes.

712
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: Earlier, Yeah, the Dispatch, what they were trying to what

713
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: they're trying to build back, you know.

714
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 3: And that's what I think Crystal was trying to do

715
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: for a little while. Though he's not really trying to

716
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: do that anymore. He's he might as well be a

717
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 3: liberal at this point. But I think that that's that's

718
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 3: a vanishingly small number of people. And you know, conservatism

719
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 3: has been subsumed by Trump. And I think I think

720
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: for people like Tucker and people like JD. Vance, I

721
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 3: think the question is can that exist independent of Trump

722
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 3: or after Trump? I think they have a real ideological

723
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 3: vision of a conservatism that is obviously very populist, Is

724
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 3: you know, nativist? Is it sort of a blood and

725
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 3: soil conservatism. Most are returned to you like a Taftian

726
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 3: kind of conservatism.

727
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you brought up taff because it actually

728
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: is part of my next foot and so I just happened.

729
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: You know, these interviews are going to air at different times,

730
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: but I had an interview earlier that I think is

731
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: actually going to air after this one airs. So my

732
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: apologies to my audience's about It's a book about Teddy Roosevelt.

733
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about Teddy, right is the fact that

734
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: he was sort of an outlier in the concern in

735
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: the Republican Party when he was named vice president. He

736
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: was popular as president, so the party accepted him, and

737
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: the second he left the party, they went back to

738
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: who they were. And I've been thinking about this with

739
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, right, which is Trump is arguably the larger,

740
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: larger in life figure that the party hasn't really had. Yeah,

741
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: you might argue Eisenhower considering the role he played in

742
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: saving the free world, but really since Teddy, and there's

743
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: always been this question, has Trump changed the conservative movement

744
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: forever or will conservatism go back? Well after Teddy, it

745
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: actually went back to the pre Teddy conservatism. We're all

746
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: assuming this won't.

747
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 3: Why are we all so sure? I think that's the

748
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 3: you know, the key question. And I'm and when you

749
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 3: say all of this, I don't know.

750
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: I actually don't know.

751
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: I don't know.

752
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: I don't know either when I say those of us

753
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: that do this for a living, right, we're trying to,

754
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: you know, in our own ways, trying to figure out

755
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: where are we, how do we get here, and where are.

756
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: We going next?

757
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: Right in general and with the conservative movement, you know,

758
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: I mean, first I want to define what the hell

759
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: is conservatism right now? And what is it going to

760
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 1: be in five years?

761
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah?

762
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 3: No, I think it's a real question. Is is it

763
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: just a cult of personality around Trump? Or are there

764
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: are there people out there who they believe in Trump,

765
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 3: but they also believe in you know, this this harsh

766
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 3: immigration policy and the tariffs and all these other things

767
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 3: that have come along with Trump, so that if someone

768
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 3: who isn't Donald Trump is you know, supporting those things,

769
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 3: they would support them. And I think that people like Tucker,

770
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 3: you know, people like Steve Bannon to a degree, people

771
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 3: like JD. Vance like they're they're thinking the latter. They

772
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: think it's about it's about the policy issues and the

773
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 3: political positions.

774
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: And they're.

775
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 3: They they think that there's like a coherence to to

776
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 3: trump Ism and to magasm that extends beyond the person.

777
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, Donald Trump is you know, a singular

778
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: figure and a very magnetic figure for a lot of people.

779
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 3: But but I think that there are people like Tucker

780
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 3: who think that it's also what Trump is, you know,

781
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 3: what he's saying about the issues, and therefore you know

782
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 3: there's there's going to be some staying power. I think,

783
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: you know, they also recognize, people like Tucker that they

784
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 3: do understand Trump's magnotism, they understand his charisma, they understand

785
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: his his ability to entertain. And I think that's always

786
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: been that's been a real question about whoever comes after Trump.

787
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 3: So much of Trump's success is, you know, predicated on

788
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 3: that that capacity he has. I don't think Jade Vance

789
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: can do that. I actually do think Tucker can. I mean,

790
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: he is an entertainer if nothing else. And I think that,

791
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 3: you know, when you think about who could kind of

792
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 3: try to who could succeed someone like Trump and keep

793
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 3: those those kind of policies alive and those arguments alive

794
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 3: and also just be a compelling figure for people. I

795
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 3: think Tucker, to me at least strikes he seems like

796
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 3: someone who could do that.

797
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: Do you think, you know, one of the things, one

798
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: of the things I've observed about Trump over the years

799
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: is how many people claw their way into his orbit,

800
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: thinking they can manipulate him. And they do it for

801
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, and eventually the t Rex bites

802
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: their head off, right, and they figure out, you know,

803
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: people try to griff Trump and Trump, you know, you

804
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: might be smarter than him in the moment, but he'll

805
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: eventually be smarter than you in the long run. Is

806
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: Trump using Carlson or is Carlson using Trump?

807
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 3: I think they're using each other. I think that's why

808
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 3: it's actually been kind of a successful role.

809
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 2: They know it.

810
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: I think that's why a weird way they know what

811
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: they each know what the others doing. And yes, it's

812
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: why it works.

813
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 3: And yeah, and I think there's a fair amount of

814
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 3: like kind of transparency and honesty there. I do think

815
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 3: they enjoy each other personally as far as I can

816
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: you know tell from my reporting like that.

817
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: By the way, they're both very good dinner party people. Yeah,

818
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, you can't be this successful

819
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: in a public medium without being that.

820
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think I think there's like a genuine

821
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 3: kind of that they both get a kick out of

822
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 3: each other. And I think that you know, kind of

823
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 3: recognizes what Tucker gives him in terms of sort of

824
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 3: you know, support in certain corners of the conservative movement.

825
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 3: And I think Tucker clearly recognizes what Trump gives him

826
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 3: in terms of just relevance. You know, once he was

827
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 3: fired from Fox, he really had to and lost that

828
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 3: built in audience. He had to start thinking about what

829
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: can I do to stay in people's you know, in

830
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 3: their heads, I mean, keep their attention to.

831
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: Be angry at the Murdocks feel yeah, yeah, I mean

832
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: he says he's not, and he talks about how, you know,

833
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: River Murdock was like the best boss he ever had.

834
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: But oh, I yes, I think so.

835
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 3: I think in the same way that Trump is angry

836
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 3: at the Murdocks, I think that I think that was

837
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 3: actually the basis in a lot of ways for this

838
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: this second sort of you know, phase of their relationship

839
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 3: is when Tucker was fired from Fox and when Trump

840
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 3: was trying to reschart his political career after January sixth,

841
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 3: I mean, Trump was curious at the Murdocks for the

842
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: way that they tried to disappear him, the way they

843
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: were supporting DeSantis. Their interest totally aligned. And I mean,

844
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember, but you know, the

845
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 3: first up debate Fox was carrying, and Fox put on

846
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: a full court press to make sure Trump would show

847
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 3: up for it because any of the ratings weren't going

848
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,959
Speaker 3: to be good, and Trump kind of strung them along.

849
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: And all the while he's talking to Tucker and they're

850
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: plotting to have this you know, sit down interview that

851
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 3: they're going to put on X that's going to air

852
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 3: at the same time as a debate and be counter programming.

853
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 3: I mean, they I think they both wanted to stick

854
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 3: it to Murdoch.

855
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what, Trump, what do you feel like?

856
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: Let me ask this, did you interview Tucker for this book?

857
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 1: Not for this book?

858
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 3: No, I've interviewed Tucker many times over the years. I mean,

859
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: why didn't you interview him for this book? Because I

860
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: tried extremely Yeah.

861
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: No, I mean I'm surprised, why why do you because

862
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: he weirdly, you know, I'm surprised he didn't even give

863
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: you the Yeah, I'll sit down with you even though

864
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: I don't trust you at all type of mindset.

865
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, Tucker, someone like I first met

866
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 3: Tucker when I was an intern at the New Republic,

867
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 3: and he was the Weekly Standard, and I.

868
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: Felt like other sibling. Those always felt like sibling publications

869
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: in the nineties, right, I mean we all knew the simile.

870
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: They were both magazines, one from the last time.

871
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: Right.

872
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 3: I was not friends with him, but he was definitely

873
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 3: someone that I knew, and.

874
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: You were probably friendly, you know, reason not to be friendly,

875
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: and I.

876
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 3: Had I had the same relationship with him as I

877
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 3: think so many political reporters who probably talked to Tucker,

878
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 3: and he's he would you know, you would text him,

879
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 3: he would call you back in five minutes, and and

880
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 3: and actually, you know, I really enjoyed talking to him

881
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: in part because even though he was no longer a

882
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 3: magazine writer, he definitely like kind of retained magazine writer

883
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 3: muscle memory, and he was understand about stories like you.

884
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I would mean almost all you're talking to

885
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 3: a colleague like he would just sort of he would

886
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: be interested in what you were doing.

887
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: By the way we kept talking about him in the past,

888
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: tense is if is if this because the Tucker I mean,

889
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: and and maybe that's it is the Tucker Carlson we

890
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 1: knew dead or alive.

891
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 3: I think he's still alive to some people. I think

892
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 3: I think the thing would have changed with me and

893
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 3: you know him was as soon as he went from

894
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 3: I mean, there's that, there's that Novak expression. You know,

895
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 3: you're either a source or or a target. I think

896
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: when he went from source to target, that's when he

897
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 3: no longer wanted to talk and you. And he said

898
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 3: when when I first approached him out book, he was,

899
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 3: you know, I'd love to talk to you.

900
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: You know, this is great.

901
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: And then you know, and then but I'm not sure

902
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: if Fox will let me and sort of we had

903
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: a long you.

904
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: Know, backup.

905
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: So you've been doing this since he was at Fox?

906
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I start, yeah, oh wow, this is always important.

907
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: Yeah wow. So when did you first start this book

908
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: and how much does it change?

909
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

910
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 1: So I started it in twenty twenty one. Okay, I'm

911
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: not proud of that. It's lease. It took me. I

912
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: did it too, you I did it took me six

913
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: years to fulfill it to your book contract.

914
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 3: So okay, yeah, so I think we're on the same timeline.

915
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

916
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 3: So I started it in twenty one and uh, you know,

917
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 3: and his and ultimately he said he couldn't talk to

918
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 3: me because Fox wouldn't let him, even though I really

919
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 3: wanted to. And then after he was fired, I went

920
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 3: to him. It was like, hey, you know, you can

921
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 3: talk now, and then he didn't even you know, respond that.

922
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: So I think he just made the calculus that you know,

923
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: it would probably be easier to attack it or dismiss

924
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 3: it if he didn't cooperate at all, but he I

925
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 3: think he still talks to plenty of reporters.

926
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 1: I know, I hear about this all the time. Yeah.

927
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben Smith thrown a piece back and that, you know,

928
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 3: I don't know, four or five years ago in the

929
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 3: Times about you know, sort of Tucker bashes the medium,

930
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 3: but he's also like their favorite source.

931
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,719
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955
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: You know, we sort of personally character assassinated me on

956
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: one of his segments. I was like, okay, I'm out.

957
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: You know, I was done with them, and he was

958
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: just attacking my employer. But he decided to use me

959
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: as the vehicle, which is just like you know, was

960
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: typical of that era, right, what cable news was. And

961
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: I just found it to be unseemly by him, and

962
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: I made that clear to him, and he just used

963
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: it all. I got the sense he just thought I

964
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 1: was being too sensitive, like, hey, you're lucky. I'm mentioning you.

965
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: This is good for you. Like it was always the

966
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: attitude Trump had, which is we're just in this attention

967
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: economy together. And that's why there's a sense of Tucker

968
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: when it's like, boy, he seems to live in reality,

969
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: but I don't know what he believes. Yeah, I think

970
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: his reality has changed a lot, though.

971
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: I mean I think that you know, when he left

972
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 3: Washington back I think in twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen,

973
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,720
Speaker 3: after protesters went to his house and you know, scared,

974
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 3: he was not home, but his wife was home, and

975
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 3: there are people outside the house, Channing, we know where

976
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 3: you live. I think that I think I think Washington

977
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 3: had already become fairly inhospitable to him.

978
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 1: You know, he was, yeah, it was look, I was yeah, yeah,

979
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: it was funny. But running we worked in the same

980
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: building and he couldn't make eye contact with me if

981
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: we passed each other in the hall. And it was

982
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: the strange thing. And it wasn't just me, it was

983
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: that he was so because he had to tape in

984
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: that building and he'd like it was like he was

985
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 1: afraid of engaging in any conversation, so he was like

986
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: averting eye contact with everybody.

987
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, he I mean, he's really shrunk his circle. And

988
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 3: now you know, he lives and he lives on two islands.

989
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 3: He lives on an island in Maine and an island

990
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: in Florida, and you know where once he used to

991
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: hang out and have lunch with, you know, David Brooks

992
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 3: and Bill Crystal and all those guys. Now it's you know,

993
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 3: Don Don Junior and Theo Vaughn. I mean, he's just

994
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: completely sort of traded one set for another set, and

995
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 3: I think I think his world has you know, he would,

996
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: I mean, he would say it's not constricted, because he

997
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 3: would say, you know, you'd be constricted when he was

998
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 3: hanging out with Bill Crystal, David Brooks. But but it's

999
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 3: he's he's in a he's in a bit of an

1000
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 3: information bubble himself.

1001
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: So come twenty twenty eight, there's going to be a

1002
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: fight for control or for influence in the conservative movement.

1003
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson and JD. Vans are in one camp. Who

1004
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: are the camps? Who are the entities that you expect

1005
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: to engage in this essentially a competition of some sort.

1006
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: Whether it's a competition of ideas or or influence is

1007
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: an open question. I feel like the Tucker.

1008
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 2: JD.

1009
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: Vance camp is I mean, they're going to be sort

1010
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: of gradations of that.

1011
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 3: I feel like the only person who's staking out a

1012
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 3: position that's completely separate from that and actually in opposition

1013
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 3: to that is Ted cruz.

1014
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: Well, and he's personally gone after Carlson. Right, Yeah, they

1015
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: called it qutar Carlson, Like that's a new thing that

1016
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: someone them have.

1017
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: I mean, he's using Tucker as this avatar to basically

1018
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 3: he's he's really going after Vance for that, right, I mean,

1019
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 3: but he's using it it's easier to go after Tucker exactly,

1020
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 3: So he's using Tucker as a stand in. But I

1021
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 3: really think I actually, i'd be curious you think. I mean,

1022
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 3: I feel like Ted Cruz is sort of like the

1023
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 3: last at least for this very moment. He's like the

1024
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 3: only sort of non lood and soil nationalist Republican out there,

1025
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 3: and only prominent one. He's sort of actually kind of

1026
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: planting his flag there. Yes, And Rand Paul, yes, is

1027
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 3: a pure liberty yes exactly, that.

1028
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: Is going to plan a slightly different flag that is, yes,

1029
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: that you know, it'll be interesting. It's it's you know,

1030
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: he Paul, you know Paul. No presidential candidacy suffered more

1031
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: from the rise of Trump right away than Rand Paul.

1032
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: Rand Paul had the outsider lane to himself until Donald

1033
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: Trump showed up. And the first guy who lost all

1034
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: of his he had this He started out like with

1035
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: a solid fifteen percent, which is pretty good in it

1036
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: when you're kicking off, and it was something to build on.

1037
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: It was he inherited much of his father's and it

1038
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: was sort of a bit different, right, It was that

1039
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: and and Trump just ooped it all up. And it

1040
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: is a portion of the mega movement. Right, So yes,

1041
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: Paul saying this but a libertarian, Yeah, yeah, and.

1042
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 3: It's you know, and it's and it's, uh, you know,

1043
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 3: Trump's kind of America firsty is. So it's so malleable

1044
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 3: at this point, right, Like you can be against sort

1045
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 3: of these wars, but you can also support them.

1046
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the joke at the White House

1047
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump's the least maga of everybody in

1048
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: the room.

1049
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1050
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 3: I think that's I think Tucker's found that out. I

1051
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 3: think Tucker really believed a lot of that stuff and

1052
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 3: he was really I think, you know, he and when

1053
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 3: I say he's influential, like I think, you gotta gotta,

1054
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 3: I gotta put the caveat like, you know, he's not

1055
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 3: that influential. I mean he if he'd had his brothers,

1056
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 3: we would not have attacked Iran, probably not Venezuela.

1057
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: Though it's kind of interesting the way he.

1058
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: Hasn't criticized the Venezuela operation the way he criticized the

1059
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 3: Iran one.

1060
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: But he wasn't critical of the idea before it happened.

1061
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 3: He was critical before it happened, and once it happened,

1062
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 3: he totally cooled his jets, which I thought, you know,

1063
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 3: it was kind of a a good sign that he's

1064
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 3: he's not you know, he's he's he doesn't want to

1065
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 3: be seen as too out of step with Trump. He

1066
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 3: you know, I think he knows where his bread is

1067
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 3: butter just in terms of keeping his relevance and he

1068
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 3: that's a that's a relationship that I think he's more

1069
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 3: interested maybe in preserving than he was before. But but

1070
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 3: I think like you're right about Paul, like he he

1071
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 3: definitely you know, will have He's staking out a position

1072
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 3: that's different from others. But I feel like, you know,

1073
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 3: it's it's cruise Paul and then and then that kind

1074
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 3: of Tucker, JD and then who. There will be other candidates,

1075
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 3: but I think they're going to be wary of straying

1076
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 3: too far from where JD vance is there. There's certainly

1077
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 3: certainly no one's going to criticize Trump.

1078
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: I mean, that's you know, whoever irony is that that

1079
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: that if there are a whole bunch of people trying

1080
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: to have ties to Trump, being the one person that

1081
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: runs away from it could in theory do better than

1082
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 1: you think. But I don't know, we'll.

1083
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: See that many.

1084
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess they'll get I don't know who

1085
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 1: that is vote. It's sort of like Breddick Propberry. It's

1086
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 1: the John Kaiseich voter from twenty sixteen. What happened to them? Right? Like?

1087
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: Are there enough of them? Like they're Democrats? Now? I

1088
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 1: think they are too, But there was you know, there

1089
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: also was twenty two percent for NICKI Haley. There's probably

1090
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: you know, Maga Trump. You know, when you look at

1091
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: the overall, it's thirty five percent is always the bare

1092
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 1: bottom right for any mega policy. So you know, that's

1093
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: about seventy percent of the party, right when it's thirty

1094
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: five percent of the country, probably somewhere between sixteen and

1095
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: seventy percent of the party, which only leaves thirty or

1096
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 1: forty right, the quote unquote sort of chamber of and

1097
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 1: that's the one I you know, the one wing of

1098
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: the party not mentioned here is kind of the business wing, right,

1099
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: the Chamber of Conference wing, And I guess that would

1100
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: be Marko Rubio. But Rubio has made it clear he's

1101
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 1: not going to challenge Vans.

1102
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I feel like that that Chamber of Commerce wing,

1103
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 3: I mean, the way the way all of business has

1104
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 3: behaved this this second the second Trump presidency is I mean,

1105
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 3: they're they're a lot more willing to bend the knee

1106
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 3: and a lot less willing to criticize Trump than they

1107
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 3: were the first time around. And I can't see that

1108
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 3: changing in the next the next few years.

1109
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder what subpoena is from a Democratic Congress

1110
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: will make them think after two years of that. I mean,

1111
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: I take your point on that, but I I think

1112
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: they've underestimated the ire that they're going to draw when

1113
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: when Democrats get power back, and they were not going

1114
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: to be able to get to Trump, so they'll subpoena business.

1115
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, oversight committee versus getting investigated by DJ or having

1116
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: your merger play.

1117
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. None of them want that. Yeah, I hear you,

1118
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 1: But none of them want to be you know, frog

1119
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: marched up on Capitol Hill either, you know. Yeah, talk

1120
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: to Trump for this book?

1121
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 2: No, No, he did not. I was rich. I was

1122
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 2: surprised by he did not. He turned down my interview request.

1123
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: Who in the conservative media world sort of was was

1124
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 1: sort of the most comfortable talking about this in a

1125
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:19,479
Speaker 1: detached way, you know, I like, I mean.

1126
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 3: Some people didn't want to talk on the record, so

1127
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 3: I have to probably be careful about that. I'm just

1128
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 3: trying to think of who talk on the record. I think,

1129
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 3: you know, I think the people who were at the

1130
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 3: Standard back when Tucker was there, you know, that original crew, Crystal,

1131
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 3: David Brooks, those, Andy Ferguson, I think they're you know,

1132
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 3: I think there's still probably some sort of personal sadness there,

1133
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 3: but they kind of moved past that and they just

1134
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 3: sort of are looking at it, you know, almost sort

1135
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 3: of more just analytically at this point, and you know, anthropologically,

1136
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 3: and they were they they had some interesting insights and thoughts,

1137
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 3: but a lot a lot of the people I talked

1138
00:54:56,040 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 3: to for the book from conservative media world were you know,

1139
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 3: didn't didn't want their their names used.

1140
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: Does he interact with people that disagree with them that

1141
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: much anymore? I don't think so.

1142
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,439
Speaker 3: I think that's I think that's the big change really

1143
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 3: since you know, he left Washington. Is he used to

1144
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 3: be kind of I think in the book, I say

1145
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 3: he's like the invited skunk to the garden party, you.

1146
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 1: Know he was, Oh, I think that's genuinely who he is.

1147
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: He wants to debate people. Yeah, Like I actually don't

1148
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: think I mean his interviews were always better than the

1149
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: other conservative interviews because he would challenge a guest every

1150
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 1: once in a while, right Sean, Annity and Laura Ingram

1151
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: every once in a while Laura will challenge, but like

1152
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: Sean never challenges, right, Yeah, ever challenges.

1153
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 2: A guest, you know.

1154
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, you know, and you

1155
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 3: it's funny Tucker now than most of the people he

1156
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 3: has on his show now or you know these you know,

1157
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 3: these are these softball interviews because he grews with them all.

1158
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 3: But then if he has someone who doesn't think when

1159
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 3: he had Ted Cruz on before the Iran attack, I

1160
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 3: mean you kind of like you remember, like, man, he's

1161
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 3: actually a pretty good interviewer.

1162
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: He can really need a smart guy. And yeah, all

1163
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: those things on his feet.

1164
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, he but I don't think he spends

1165
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 3: a lot of time talking to people he disagrees with.

1166
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 3: Now he's very much within kind of the Maga bubble.

1167
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 3: And that's you know, and there look they're probably you know,

1168
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 3: security reasons. I mean, it's you know, I think that

1169
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 3: just the political climate being what it is, I think

1170
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 3: it's it's harder probably for him to you know, exist

1171
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 3: outside that bubble.

1172
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: How do you get a sense he is super ambitious?

1173
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: Does he care about you know, it's interesting if you're

1174
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: Rush Lumbar or Father Coughlan, you know, you're just going

1175
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: to be interesting to historians fifty years later. Beyond that,

1176
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: nobody's going to remember who you are. If you're president,

1177
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: you know, you get it paid. I mean, is he

1178
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,320
Speaker 1: does he care so much about who he is that

1179
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: he needs to run for office so that he's remembered.

1180
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't get that sense. I think I don't

1181
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 3: think he's Bill Clinton. I don't think he's someone who

1182
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 3: has to be president. That said, I think if he

1183
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 3: concludes that the only way he can, you know, achieve

1184
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 3: his goals is by becoming president, I don't know what's

1185
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 3: the goal having. I think the goal is changing the country.

1186
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,800
Speaker 3: I think the goal is making it a place that

1187
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 3: you know, doesn't look very much like it does today.

1188
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 3: And I think that that that's ultimately it really is.

1189
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,720
Speaker 3: He just wants to go back to a male dominated society,

1190
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 3: male dominated, white dominated. You know, in some parts of

1191
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 3: what he wants to go back to I think are

1192
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 3: not necessarily all the negative. I mean, you know, a

1193
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 3: society that's you know more about making things and having

1194
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 3: financial instruments. I mean, they're you know, these are not

1195
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 3: all bad things or wrong things. I think that's that's

1196
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 3: kind of his vision. Well, the unraveling of the conservative

1197
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 3: mind is.

1198
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 2: Do you.

1199
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: Do you think you know what the definition of conservatism is?

1200
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: Now?

1201
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: Do you have an idea of what I.

1202
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 3: Think it's after doing this. I think it's in I

1203
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 3: think it's in flux. And I think the point you

1204
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 3: made about Teddy Roosevelt's a really smart one that you know,

1205
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 3: there there is a scenario where maybe it doesn't go

1206
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 3: back to what it was before. And I think, you know,

1207
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 3: I think the never Trump crowd is, you know, getting

1208
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 3: themselves if they think it will.

1209
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: But it's not gonna be never Trumpers. Yeah.

1210
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 3: I mean, we're not bringing back yeah, yeah, yeah, You're

1211
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: not going to have that Republican Party. It's gonna be

1212
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 3: something else. Will it be as Trumpian as it is

1213
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 3: while he's still in charge? I think that's the real question.

1214
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 3: I think there are I think the people who believe

1215
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 3: that there is kind of a ideological coherence to trump Ism.

1216
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 3: You know, I think it remains to be seen.

1217
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: If I let me ask you, I would you rather

1218
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: be John Thune or Josh Holly for the next decade

1219
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: in Republican politics.

1220
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 3: Josh Holly, without a doubt, I think that. I think

1221
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 3: that's where the energy is. I think that's where and

1222
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 3: that's where young people are. I think I think John

1223
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 3: Thune is a dinosaur. I think I think Josh Holly

1224
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 3: and his his type are where where the future is.

1225
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 1: So, uh, you've been transitioning. Uh are you going to

1226
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: go back to daily writing?

1227
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 2: Not daily?

1228
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 3: But you know, I will just write a long magazine

1229
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 3: articles so it won't be daily. But you know where

1230
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 3: you hang these days. I'm at the New Yorker, at

1231
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 3: the New York which is actually where I am right now,

1232
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 3: little phone booth. Yeah yeah, and so not daily, but

1233
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,479
Speaker 3: you know, definitely more than one thing in six years

1234
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 3: or five.

1235
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: So you've done Times, Post and New Yorker, Is that right?

1236
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 3: Just the just the New York I was at the

1237
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 3: New York Times magazine and I just I just left there,

1238
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 3: uh at the end of the year.

1239
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 2: So I just started at the New Yorker.

1240
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 1: And have you written a piece yet for The New Yorker?

1241
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 2: Not yet.

1242
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 3: I have a piece on Tucker Carlson in this in

1243
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 3: this week's issue. It's a it's an excerpt from the

1244
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 3: book with some new reporting about foes.

1245
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: Tough for fact checkers. New York Times magazine or New Yorker.

1246
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 3: Both both very tough, both and you know, uh, I

1247
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 3: can't imagine doing this stuff without without that that safety net.

1248
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: I've never written for the New York I wrote for

1249
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: The Atlantic single hardest fact checking situation I ever went through,

1250
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 1: which was awesome, and it made me or it was like, God, no,

1251
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 1: I nothing like a magazine to do a fact check.

1252
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're just they're well, I think they're three

1253
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 3: places left that do it basically. I think we just

1254
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 3: named all three and uh, they're it's really country. Yeah,

1255
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 3: but it's so it's so great. I mean there's a

1256
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 3: reason that those places are what they are, and I

1257
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 3: think that's it's it's the editing as well. I mean,

1258
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 3: you know, spending the amount of time that they do

1259
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 3: kind of making sure stuff is right and the arguments work.

1260
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 1: I am all for all of our friends that are

1261
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: doing well on substack and all of that, but there's

1262
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 1: nothing like collaboration to make a better product.

1263
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, having having colleagues, having bosses, having people you can

1264
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 3: kind of you know, just work with and talk about stuff.

1265
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: I think it does make a difference.

1266
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: So what do you hope people get out of the book?

1267
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 3: I you know, I hope I hope it helps people

1268
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 3: understand kind of how we got to this moment. I'm

1269
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,479
Speaker 3: not you know, it's not all encompassing. There all sorts

1270
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 3: of factors. But I do think Tucker is like a

1271
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 3: nice a nice kind of character and vehicle to explain. Oh,

1272
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 3: it's a sort of yeah, we're how we got to

1273
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 3: hear I mean that's I mean, you know, I think

1274
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 3: people always sort of say, you know, what the hell

1275
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 3: are people in our world at least always say like

1276
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 3: what the hell happened to Tucker? And I think like

1277
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 3: there is kind of this larger question, you know, which

1278
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 3: is like what the hell happened to all of us?

1279
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 2: It's it's not just him, and and I hope that in.

1280
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 3: Reading about him, because you're not just reading about him,

1281
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 3: You're reading about the people who are around him. You're

1282
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 3: reading about the institutions he worked in. It's you know,

1283
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 3: and people wind up in very different places, you know,

1284
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 3: I mean, like him in Crystal sort of like you know,

1285
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 3: their their paths the way they crossed, Like, there's something

1286
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 3: I think you know sort of interesting about that, and

1287
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: something that you know speaks is something bigger than just.

1288
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 1: The elected who's the elected Republican? If you were told

1289
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: you had to use a elected Republican as your vehicle

1290
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 1: to do this, who would be the best candidate for that?

1291
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: I have a couple of nominees, but I'm sure is

1292
01:01:58,120 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: where your head would go with this?

1293
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so many of them have. I would have

1294
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 3: said Ted Cruz until recently actually, just because you know

1295
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 3: his his sort of transformation. That's a great question. Uh huh,

1296
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 3: can you tell me yours?

1297
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 1: My two? My two quick ones would be Lindsay Graham

1298
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 1: and Marco Rubio, right they started his critic.

1299
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,439
Speaker 3: Gosh, of course yeah Ruby, Yeah, Rubio even more than Graham.

1300
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: Rubio probably more than even Lindsay. Like Lindsay is so

1301
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: transactional kind of under Yeah, there's it's not a book,

1302
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: that's a penphilet. Yeah, Ruby, rb is interesting. Yeah, Rubio

1303
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: is much more interesting. Yeah.

1304
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 3: And your question earlier about people who you who think

1305
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 3: they can use Trump, there's that's I mean, because obviously Ruby.

1306
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: Was We're not done with that story, Marco. That's what

1307
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: I keep warning my Marco friends. Yeah, you know, he's

1308
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: he's he's unlocked the combination with Trump for Venezuela. Maybe

1309
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: he'll get there with Cuba. Yeah, that doesn't mean he's

1310
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: got a you know, he's still the guy that made

1311
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 1: made fun of his you know what, and that will

1312
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: never be forgotten by the president. At some point he

1313
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 1: will humiliate Marco one more time. Yeah, that's sort of

1314
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: what you sign up for, I think when when you

1315
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: go work there. But yeah, actually, you know, on jd.

1316
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 1: Vance would be a very good uh figure as well.

1317
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: I assigned his collect I assign his book to my

1318
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: students to read and to try to understand. What do

1319
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: you want to you want them to get out of it,

1320
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: to try to, uh, you know, who's that guy and

1321
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: who's the vice president? Tell me who exactly? Yeah, help

1322
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 1: explain the two, you know, where do you see similarities?

1323
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: And what what? What are hard to just to you know,

1324
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: it's more of of just most of them these days

1325
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: don't know much about abiliology, and they and most of

1326
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 1: these students, they can't believe what they read. They're like, yeah, wow,

1327
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: yeah I like that guy. They all like them. Yeah,

1328
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: they love the author jd Vance.

1329
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's like is he know law classmates, they

1330
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 3: all like that guy too, Maybe not so much anymore.

1331
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, hey Jason, congrats. Like I said, I think you

1332
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: hit a home run with the title. Was it your idea?

1333
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: It's a great title. Hated by all the right people.

1334
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, well, I.

1335
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 3: Mean it's you know, it's something that Tucker said. I

1336
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 3: mean Tucker, it was. It was what Tucker said to

1337
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 3: Victor Orbond, that was he was he was getting it

1338
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 3: right and profest and Tucker said, you know, you were

1339
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 3: truly hated by all the right people. It was sort

1340
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 3: of the ultimate compliment.

1341
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: So it was, it was it is shockingly compared. It's

1342
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 1: one of these books, man, when you see it in

1343
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 1: the airport or you see it like you're going to

1344
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 1: look at it a second time. So I hope you're right, yes, exactly.

1345
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: Now you're going to do well. You're going to do

1346
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: well with this because people are constantly trying to figure out,

1347
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:39,439
Speaker 1: explain this to me, what the hell happened? I thought

1348
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: I knew this guy. I thought I knew this movement.

1349
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 1: What what are we doing here?

1350
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 2: Right?

1351
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,919
Speaker 1: And you look, you you don't have a definitive answer

1352
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: because there are no definitive answers, but but you give us,

1353
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: you take us on the critical thinking tour that we

1354
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 1: all need.

1355
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 2: To be on.

1356
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: Thanks that's that was definitely the goal.

1357
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot.

1358
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,800
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