WEBVTT - Disc Golf Architecture with John Houck 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.520 Welcome back to another edition of The Fried Egg Podcast. 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.000 I'm Garrett Morrison, managing editor at The Fried Egg, and 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:11.120 today we dive into the world of disc golf architecture. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.200 You heard that right, disc golf, and it turns out 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.600 to be a really interesting subject. But first, this episode 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.480 is brought to you by the Frida Egg Pro Shop. 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.959 You can find it at proshop dot thefridagg dot com. 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:28.480 We've got all sorts of things from tumblrs to photography 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.440 prints to cold weather gear which might be relevant to 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.720 a lot of people's situations right now. But today I'd 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.280 like to point out our Fried Egg white liampolo. It's 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:41.960 made by b Dratty, so you know it's high quality. 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.080 You know, it's made of b Draddy's famous Peruvian Pima cotton, 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.440 so soft, so breathable, and it has the Frida Egg 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.600 logo tastefully stitched into the pocket. It's just a great standard, 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:56.959 everyday polo fit for a bunch of different situations. So 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.880 get your own at pro shop dot The Friday great 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.959 way to support the pod, all right, So today's guest 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.240 is John Howke, who is widely regarded, even universally regarded 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.200 as the leading designer in disc golf. He's behind courses 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.919 like Harmony Benz in Columbia, Missouri, see the Ranch in Talco, Texas, 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.120 and Hillcrest Farms on Prince Edward Island. These courses are 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.880 considered to be among the very best in the disc 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.679 golf world. And just last year there was a tournament 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.160 at Hillcrest Farms and I'll put a link to a 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.440 video of it in the show notes. I want you 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:39.560 to see it. It's a pretty stunning place. So until recently, 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.160 I had never really thought about disc golf architecture. And 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.560 here I have to apologize to any listeners who are 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.320 avid disc golfers. I have a great deal of respect 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:49.880 for the sport, but I just don't know a whole 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.440 lot about it, So parts of this episode might seem 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.440 a little basic to you. But trying my best, I 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:57.960 was aware of disc golf. I just hadn't really put 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.680 it together that the sport had to have something like 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:04.680 its own tradition of design, just like golf does. And 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.080 it turns out that the world of disc golf architecture 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:09.919 has a lot in common with the world of golf architecture. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.840 Disc golfers love to talk about courses and rank courses 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.320 they travel to see new places. There's a healthy debate 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.959 about what makes for good design and poor design. Disc 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:24.120 golf even has its own issues with distance and technology 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:27.959 and the obsoleting of older courses and things like that, 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.120 But there are also some big differences. There's a lot 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.720 less money in disc golf, for better or for worse. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:38.080 From my perspective, maybe mostly for better. The courses are 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.600 really natural, and abundance of trees is a good thing 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.040 for disc golf because trees are the main hazard in 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:48.079 the sport. The properties are pretty small because a disc 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.080 doesn't travel as far as a golf ball. There doesn't 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.400 need to be this intensively cultivated short crop turf because 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.280 disc golfers are just standing on the ground instead of 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.200 playing off of it. Maintenance is really manageable. Just about 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.480 everybody walks. Golf style carts aren't available or even practical 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.280 most of the time. In the green fees I mean, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:11.640 a lot of disc golf courses are free to play, 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.200 especially the ones on city land. Some do charge, but 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.720 the rates are really low. One of John Howke's newer courses, 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.960 seal a Ranch, charges twenty dollars for unlimited play, all day. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:25.400 And keep in mind that see the Ranch is regarded 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.800 as one of the best disc golf courses in the world, 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.560 certainly one of the most ambitiously designed. So I find 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.160 all of this incredibly appealing. I feel like golf could 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.160 actually learn a good bit from disc golf. And at 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.000 the same time, disc golf is at this interesting place 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:44.160 in its history where it's growing, getting more popular, attracting 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.400 more money, and that money, on the one hand, will 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.680 allow architects like John Howck to do more and to 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.560 realize their visions more fully. On the other hand, part 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.320 of what's attractive about disc golf and part of what 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.800 it does better than traditional golf is usibility and affordability. 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.280 So disc golf is going to have to figure out 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:10.240 how much it really wants to change as it gets bigger. Anyway, 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.320 that's why I wanted to talk to John Howck, and 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.880 without further ado, here's my conversation with him. I miss 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.680 a green, for example, I'm already upset when I find 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:20.440 my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:22.480 And when I find my ball in a fried egg 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.520 Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida egg, Frida egg 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.200 egg Frida egg Bride egg Lie. I'm about ready to 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:29.840 run off the golf course. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.920 So why don't we just start by talking a little 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.960 bit about your background in disc golf, the sport, and 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:00.760 then how you got into disc golf course design. 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.800 Sure. Well, I loved frisbee since I was a little kid. 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.400 I have a very clear recollection of being maybe in 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:14.640 third grade and playing catch with a friend and not 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.040 not even wanting to catch it sometimes, I just I 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.600 just loved the way it would hover and land. I 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:25.200 was just fascinated by it. So I by the time 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:31.000 I got to seventh eighth grade, this was now mid seventies, 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.120 ultimate was starting to get big, and you know, so 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.720 we learned about it and we would play, you know, 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.640 two on two or three on three. I remember teaching 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.920 myself how to throw a sidearm, which took hours, throwing 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.000 the throwing my master frisbee into the garage and picking 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:50.839 it up and throwing it again. Of course, now I 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:52.440 can you know, I can teach a kid how to 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:57.000 do it in two minutes. And by the time I 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.640 got out of college, I was very sure curious about it. 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:04.279 You know, in those days, if you played frisbee, you 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:09.080 did everything. So we did disc golf, we did freestyle, distance, 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.240 maximum time, aloft, all that stuff, and by the time 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.440 I got out of college, I actually had a chance 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:20.599 to kind of make a living doing freestyle demonstrations around 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.680 the country. So at that point in my career, I 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:28.320 was really focused on freestyle. But it became clear that 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:33.200 disc golf was about to explode, and so I ran 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:38.680 my first disc golf well overall event that included disc 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.800 golf in nineteen eighty four. I had to design the 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.120 course for that event, and that was the beginning at 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:49.960 Zilk Park in Austin, Texas. And as far as golf, 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.760 you know, my dad started pulling me around in a 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:57.760 little red wagon when I was five, and he always 0:06:57.800 --> 0:06:59.520 liked to be the first one on the course, so 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.719 we were up early and he'd be out there and 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.279 pull me along until I was old enough to start 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.520 playing on my own. I will also never forget the 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.760 day I think we were on about hold twelve and 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.760 I was, you know, probably give or take one hundred 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.440 and fifty, and he and all his friends were around sixty. 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:23.200 And that was the day he told me that the 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:27.440 highest score doesn't win, So I almost gave up the 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:32.960 sport that day, but I hung in there, and you know, 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.720 my whole thing was was promoting the sport and trying 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:38.840 to get more people involved, and to do that we 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.640 needed more courses. And so thankfully that's you know, right 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.520 around the time that people, particularly here in Texas where 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.480 I was at the time, we're really getting interested in it, 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.440 and the phone started ringing and we started putting in 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:54.520 disc golf courses. 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:56.640 So it sounds like you have a bit of a 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:01.200 background in golf as well. When you started designing golf courses, 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:05.480 were you drawing on some of your experience with traditional golf. 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.640 Absolutely, I mean, you know, the disc golf world is 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:14.800 a little divided. Some people think we're brothers or cousins, 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.480 and some people think, you know, we might as well 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:22.120 be disc golf and snowboarding. I certainly don't take that view. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.600 I also have a lot of respect for golf. I mean, 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.000 there's there's a reason why it's one of the most 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:32.720 popular sports in the world, and you know, four hundred 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:37.080 years of learning how to do things right. Clearly, there 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.319 are things about disc golf that are very different and 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.440 we need to emphasize those. But there's so much about 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:48.800 golf that we can learn from and incorporate or you know, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.600 use variations of. So it was really important to me 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.280 to learn as much as I could about golf, you know, 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:01.920 learn which principles we could incorporate, which principles maybe we couldn't, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:07.280 which we could use varieties of. And so I've always 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.840 been a big advocate of learning from golf. 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.880 And we'll get into some of those similarities and differences 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.520 later on. I'm very curious to dig into the details 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:22.000 there and talk about design, But just to begin with 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:26.720 the basics, do disc golf courses usually have eighteen holes? 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.520 Well, that's so funny you asked that because a statistic 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.520 just came out last week. I would have said easily yes. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:40.480 But apparently where give or take fifty to fifty or 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:45.559 sixty forty between eighteen and nine or sometimes other numbers. 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.280 I mean, we go I think as low as three 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:53.400 or four, and we go up to twenty seven. There's 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.600 a thing in Michigan where there's a lot of twenty four's. 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.360 I don't know where that came from. But eighteen, you know, 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.680 for whatever reason, you may know the history of it 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.760 better than I do. But eighteen is a sacred number, 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.560 and if we're not doing eighteen, we're usually doing nine. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.280 Gotcha. Okay, how long are disc golf courses typically? How 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.000 long are the holes? And what's the mixture of pars 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:20.600 and you know, what are we looking at? 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:25.160 Well, the rule of thumb on distances was always about 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:31.080 a third. There have been substantial improvements and changes in 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.959 our technology over the last ten twenty years, so that's 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.160 not so much the case anymore. I think when you're 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:43.640 at the highest level, par threes are almost all going 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:49.880 to be you know, to seventy to three seventy. Occasionally 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.559 they'll be a little shorter. Occasionally they'll they'll be a 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:53.240 little higher. 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.079 And we're talking feet here. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.120 Yes, I'm sorry feet. Yes, we do everything in the 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:02.959 feet excepting where we have to convert from meters and 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:07.120 you're a player, so yes, but exactly we typically use 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.520 feet instead of yards, and so you know, par four 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:14.960 for us typically about double that, so you know, five 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.760 point fifty to seven fifty for the top players. Again, 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.199 par fives, you know, eight hundred to eleven hundred typically 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.920 that kind of thing. So, but yeah, discs are flying 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:28.440 farther and that's that's been a real issue for us. 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.920 I mean, I know you all have an issue with 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:38.840 older courses being somewhat obsolete. We have that problem times ten. 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.559 Oh well, we'll dig into that later for sure. What 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.200 do the pins look like in disc golf? They're these 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.880 baskets or do you call them pins? 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.319 Some of us call them pins, we call them baskets. 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:57.400 We call them targets. Typically, the center poll is give 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.800 or take five feet tall, and there's a a basket 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.480 that's about two foot diameter and about two and a 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.320 half feet off the ground, and then there's a series 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.360 of chains above the basket. And if you've ever seen 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.480 I don't know if they even exist anymore, but they 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.440 used to make basketball nets out of chain, right, so 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.600 wider at the top and narrow at the bottom. That's 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.200 what that's what our chains kind of look like. And 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.440 that allows you to throw a shot that's flat and 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.040 it hits the chains and drops into the basket. 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.040 And I have to say, when the disk hits the chains, 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.240 it makes this very satisfying sound. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.280 That is the sound of life for many disc golfers. 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:45.080 Yeah. So do disc golf courses have teas and greens 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.520 as golfers would understand them? 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:55.200 Teas? Yes, of course. Our te'es. You know, we run 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.960 up on the tee and the only golfer who does 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:04.440 that is Happy Gilmour, right, but we do that almost 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:10.000 all the time. So the tea's are always, if possible, 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:14.440 a flat, hard surface. We're experimenting with a lot of 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:20.800 different surfaces. You know, a rubber has been experimented with 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.400 over the last couple of decades. Turf is becoming popular now. 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:30.040 The king is still concrete in my mind. But the 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.640 idea is you have to give the players a level, 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:38.880 predictable surface for players to run up and so a 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:43.280 tea pad typically on my championship courses we do six 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.880 feet wide, twelve or fifteen feet long. They need to 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.880 be flush with the ground so that people don't have 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.800 to step up onto it and so they can't you know, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.640 fall off it. As far as greens, that is one 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:04.720 of the huge, huge, huge differences between our versions of golf. 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.000 In your version, I mean, the greens are like a 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:13.000 whole different world, right, all of a sudden, you're using 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.800 a different a very different club. The ball is not 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:23.640 leaving the surface. It's about reading and pace, right. That 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:28.240 doesn't happen with us. You know, we have discs that 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.760 we call putters and that we use in short range. 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.960 But they're just kind of taller and rounder than all 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.640 the other discs we use, right, they're not that that 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.680 kind of night and day difference that that traditional golf uses. 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.800 And so for you, being on the green and being 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.200 off the green is a big deal, and for us 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:56.800 it's more of a continuum. Right. When we're closer, we're 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.640 using the putter. As we get further out, we're still 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.920 going to use the putter, and the shot is similar. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.040 But as we go back, there's no point where we go, Okay, 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.760 I'm off the green. You know, life is different. So 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:17.640 in my mind, there are design elements for our green areas. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.080 You know, I still refer to the area around the 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:25.720 basket as the green typically, but it's it's not at 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.080 all like what happens in the in the traditional golf world. 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.840 And I should mention that for those who don't know 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.240 much about disc golf, that disc golfers use a number 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.280 of different discs for different situations. I'm not sure how 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.720 many disks disc golfers usually use. Is there is there 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:44.120 a limit? 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:48.640 We do not yet have a bag limit, So it's 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.440 you know, typically when people are starting out. We recommend 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.120 just three a driver, a mid range and a putter. 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.240 But you know, once people get serious about it, they 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:06.240 can carry thirty or more and may have up to 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:11.720 one hundred in their arsenal. You know that they may 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.440 take out, you know, depending on the course and the weather. 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:20.200 So discs will vary in speed, which is the biggest 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:24.320 factor in terms of distance, but also in the carry 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:28.120 the glide, whether they like to go right, it all 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.960 how much they want to go left, which you know 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:39.520 we refer to as understable and overstable. And with our discs, 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.320 even though we're able to curve them either direction, and 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:46.720 believe it or not, we have disks that you can 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.120 throw that will go to the right and then come 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.200 back and break to the left or vice versa. When 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:58.160 our disks, particularly drivers start to slow down, they always 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.360 fall one way. We call that paid so a right 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:04.600 handed backhand. If it's still in the air and it 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:06.399 runs out of gas, it's going to fall to the 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.960 left every time. And if you throw a side arm 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:12.920 or forehand, when it runs for a right hand or 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:14.640 when it runs out of gas, it's going to fall 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:18.640 to the right every time. So huge, huge, huge variety 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.720 in discs and don't forget. You know, we also do 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.640 skip shots, we do roller shots, we do upside down shots, 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:29.960 and those you know, different discs are are good for 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:35.399 different of those shots. And every model comes in a 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:42.359 variety of plastics for more durability, different grip, and every 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:46.520 disc comes in a variety of weights, typically between you know, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.720 one hundred and forty five grams and one hundred and 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:53.720 seventy five grams. So it's very different from choosing clubs. 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.880 And as they age and start to get beat up, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.480 they'll fly a little bit so they can get seasoned, 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:08.159 you know. Club quote. Club selection for us is a 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:13.840 very can be a very complex decision. 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:16.520 This will be I think reassuring to a lot of 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:21.680 traditional golfers who get obsessed with their gear. Hearing that 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:25.600 there that there's this extent of and variety of equipment 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.240 and disc golf the disc is both the ball and 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.679 the club. It seems like, yes, it takes on this 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.240 sort of extra importance, right, and you can. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.359 Yes, if you're someone who likes to get obsessed, you 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.360 can get very obsessed about discs. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:43.119 So just generally speaking, if a traditional golfer were to 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.880 walk onto a disc golf course, what would look different, 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:52.480 what would be kind of unfamiliar about that environment. 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:57.080 Well, the first thing you notice is our courses are 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:02.200 are so different from each other, right, I mean, for you, 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.640 if you've never been to a course before, you know, 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.680 before you get their pars probably going to be between 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.560 sixty eight and seventy two. The fairways are going to be, 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.320 you know, give or take a certain width. The par 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.480 threes are going to be in this range, and the 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.000 fours in this range, and the fives in this range. 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.800 With us, you have no idea what's coming. There are 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:28.280 courses that are more or less wide open with wide fairways. 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.680 There are courses that are all in the woods where 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.720 the fairy you know, instead of a three hundred and 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.080 fifty foot hole with just a couple of trees, it 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.359 could be a two hundred and fifty foot hole through 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:46.439 a five foot fairway that has a thousand trees. So 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.919 you just never know. And I think we probably have 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:57.760 more variety in terrain. Two. You know, we love big hills. 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.960 There's more variety in the type of terrain we use. 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:08.840 There's more variety in our design. So you'll probably notice 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:14.320 almost always there's no big clubhouse. There's almost never a carpbarn, 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.720 but you know, once you get on the tee, it's 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.560 it's really the same kind of idea. 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.600 What does it take to maintain a disc golf course? 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.439 I'm sure this depends on the kind of land that 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.320 it's on, but what are the typical sort of like 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.040 maintenance standards for a disc golf course? 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:39.280 I would say in general, maintenance on a disc golf 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:43.280 course is pretty similar to maintenance in you know, a 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:47.480 city park. The height of the grass is not a 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:49.480 big deal for us the way it is for you, 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.000 all right, and that's that's a good thing and a 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.480 bad thing. So you know, if we're typically at four 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.960 or five inches, that's that's fine for us. We just 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:00.800 don't want it to be so tall that we can't 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:06.159 find our disc. So the the you know, species of 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:09.280 grass not a big deal for us. And again you know, 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:17.440 not having the greens as you do where you know, height, species, dryness, 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.240 all of those factors are so important that that really 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:24.240 doesn't happen for us. So we we actually have more 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:29.280 issues with tree branches growing into the fairway because we're 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:33.080 so dependent upon trees or you know, brush growing up. 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:38.679 So maintenance is very important to us. And if a 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:45.080 course isn't maintained, it becomes much less of an enjoyable experience. 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.160 But our maintenance is very different from your maintenance. 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.159 You don't necessarily need an agronomist in the way that 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:55.520 a golf course need an agronomist. It's just, you know, 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:57.440 mow the grass where you need to mow the grass. 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.600 And I've also noticed that disc golf courses, when they 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:04.000 play through these heavily wooded areas, the ground will be natural, right, 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:07.640 It'll be dirt, which is the usual kind of natural 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.560 state of ground that's under a thick canopy of trees. 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.160 That can be part of a disc golf course as well. 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:17.680 It can. I think we're starting to move out of 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.880 that era a little bit. Part of what I tried 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.639 to do in my designs in particular is give people 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.639 more options. You know, when we're in a wooded environment, 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:35.679 which means clearing a wider fairway, leaving some trees in 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:37.800 the middle for people to go around. I mean it's 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.200 almost like having you know, multiple fairways on the same hole. 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.680 And what happens when you do that is if you 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.919 get to the point where you're letting more sunlight in, 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:52.439 it's going to be easier for you to have grass 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:55.240 in there, which which is a really nice benefit. As 0:22:55.320 --> 0:23:00.000 a matter of fact, I'm doing one course now in Pennsylvania, 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:04.639 you know, where after they cleared the most of the 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:07.960 wooded holes, they went in and put seed down. And 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:12.000 I came back and I mean it was incredible, you know, 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:16.080 for disc golfers to have, you know, grassy fairways in 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.520 the woods. But we did that in New Orleans too, 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.360 at the park day from Me course where they seated 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:27.560 everything and it almost looks like a golf fairway with 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:33.560 some of the trees left. So, you know, the difference 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:39.639 in maintenance makes disc golf courses a lot less expensive 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:43.560 to build and maintain, even though you know, we're starting 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.240 to raise the bar there, but it makes it, you know, 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:50.160 less expensive to play, less expensive to install. And our 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:53.719 thing is, you know, we need to it's more about 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:59.360 discovering the holes out in nature than building them. Now 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.080 we're doing more building, and I don't want to say 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:09.280 that golf architects don't discover, but it's a big difference 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:12.000 in emphasis there. We kind of you know, carve out 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:15.040 of the woods. We don't clearcut, you know, I mean, 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:19.280 for us a fifty foot fairway in the woods is gigantic. 0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:23.800 So we're talking a little bit about terrain here, you know, 0:24:24.080 --> 0:24:26.520 as a golfer, and I'm sure there are many golfers 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:28.240 who would disagree with me about this. This is a 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.480 subject of debate. But to me, the ideal piece of 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:34.720 land for a golf course would be attractive links land. Right, 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:40.560 you have sandy rolling terrain, not many trees, if any, 0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:46.120 firm turf that the ball can roll along, interesting contours 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:50.560 that have been shaped by the sea, sandy base to 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:52.760 the soil that you know, you can just kord of 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:55.840 dig out and you have bunkers. That to me is 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:58.840 really the ideal land for a golf course. It's where 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:02.080 golf began, It's where many of the best golf courses are. 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:06.200 If you were to say what the ideal piece of 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:09.600 terrain for a disc golf course would be, what would 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:10.160 come to mind? 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:14.240 That is a great question. You know, our whole thing 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:20.000 in design is to capitalize on the natural assets. You're 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:22.959 giving me the opportunity to say, with the natural assets 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:25.679 are going to be ahead of time, you know. The 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:29.040 important thing is is we want to create an experience 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:35.800 for the player that emphasizes decision making, recovery options, you know, 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:42.359 fairness and wits and fairness and rewards for execution. So 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:46.760 the three things that we always say we look for 0:25:47.560 --> 0:25:53.080 are mature treaties, interesting terrain, and water features. And we're 0:25:53.119 --> 0:25:56.040 typically happy if we can get two of those, and 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.160 we're really happy if we can get three of those. 0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:03.800 And the four things that we're always looking to create 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:06.640 and these you know, I kind of codified these back 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:09.359 in the nineties and you'll recognize them from the Gulf 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:17.320 World variety, balance, character, and strategy. So we would want 0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:21.560 interesting terrain. What does that mean. It's going to be hilly. 0:26:22.640 --> 0:26:27.200 It's going to have a good number of trees because 0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:29.879 that's what we use for obstacles, and we want the 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:36.359 design to be complex and rich, So the trees are 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:40.879 really important. Water is actually turning out to be a 0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:44.400 topic for debate. Water features if you use them right, 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:47.120 are great, you know, because you know, same thing for us, 0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:53.440 the esthetics are important. So my ideal property would have 0:26:53.760 --> 0:26:56.320 a lot of variety in the terrain. It would it 0:26:56.320 --> 0:27:02.679 would be hilly, there would be firms and raised areas 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:05.800 that we could use for tees and landing areas and greens, 0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:10.600 a lot of slopes, and you know, like I said, 0:27:10.640 --> 0:27:14.720 trees and water are critical. So those are all aspects 0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:16.480 of it. And when we need to, you know, we 0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:20.359 plant trees. We're getting at the point where, you know, 0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:25.000 we can actually build mounting features. I just created some 0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:28.840 really neat mounds because we had the opportunity to do one, 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:35.720 but the client's budget was devastated by COVID, so we're 0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:38.720 keeping that available for future projects now. 0:27:38.760 --> 0:27:41.080 So it sounds like earth moving is on the horizon. 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:43.679 I was going to ask what kinds of alterations to 0:27:43.720 --> 0:27:48.520 the landscape you might make in creating a disc golf course. 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:52.719 Is earth moving typically part of it or not? Do 0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:56.200 you remove trees? Sounds like you sometimes plant trees. 0:27:56.880 --> 0:28:00.720 Historically, earth moving not a big deal for us, but 0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:05.080 we are we are headed in that direction cautiously. I 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:09.000 really have been focusing on landing areas, and I've been 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:12.200 working on well defined landing areas, you know, on par 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:15.960 fours and par fives. You know, again, we want to 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:21.159 give the players good footing on landing areas. So you know, 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.080 the first time I got to work with an excavator 0:28:24.800 --> 0:28:27.280 was a revelation for me because I had an area 0:28:27.359 --> 0:28:29.760 that was rocky and you could hardly walk on it. 0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:32.640 And the guy went in there and leveled it out 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:35.760 and got the rocks out, and I had a beautiful, 0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:38.680 you know, landing area with good footing for the players 0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:41.520 and a slope coming down into it and a slope 0:28:41.560 --> 0:28:44.520 coming off of it. So it had great risk rewards. 0:28:45.520 --> 0:28:50.680 So we're just heading that way. I've done you know, 0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:53.560 several courses where we've done a little bit of it. 0:28:54.680 --> 0:28:58.000 Most designers haven't had the opportunity to do that yet. 0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:00.600 I've got some projects coming up where we're going to 0:29:00.680 --> 0:29:04.440 have more of that opportunity. But I think the first 0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:06.760 step for us is they're going to be key parts 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:09.240 of the fairway, you know, like the landing areas on 0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:12.480 par fours and five. We did this at Harmony Bins 0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:14.600 a little bit where you know, we're able to create 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:17.840 a flat area on the side of a steep slope 0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:20.600 so that if you hit that landing area, you're going 0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:22.840 to get rewarded with good footing and you'll have a 0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:24.680 run up and if you miss it, you know, you 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:27.760 have to deal with the slope. So we did some 0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:31.240 of that at the International Disc Golf Center on the 0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:36.320 on the W. R. Jackson Course, and so we are 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:42.120 slowly incrementally heading that way. So since about ten years ago, 0:29:42.720 --> 0:29:46.200 you know, you'll you'll see sculpted features on courses here 0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:49.160 and there, but I think as we move forward, we're 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:51.360 going to see more of that. So because man, I'm 0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:53.880 telling you, working with that excavator was was. 0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:56.200 Fun intoxicating, right, Yeah, A lot of a lot of 0:29:56.440 --> 0:29:59.600 golf course shapers say that what does the what did 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:02.920 the budget look like in terms of time and money? 0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:04.640 And where are those budgets headed. 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:09.640 Well, in terms of money, it's never enough. And in 0:30:09.880 --> 0:30:16.560 terms of time Championship course for me, I'm typically working 0:30:16.800 --> 0:30:20.040 two to three hundred hours, almost all on site. Some 0:30:20.160 --> 0:30:22.400 of it obviously is going to be at my desk. 0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:26.719 But you know, there's there's so much variety, Garrett, you know, 0:30:27.040 --> 0:30:29.280 I mean, because there's so much variety in the courses. 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:32.800 So when you're when you're into the bigger courses, you 0:30:32.840 --> 0:30:35.880 know where par is in the mid to high sixties, 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:41.800 and particularly if it's in a wooded environment, because a 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:44.160 lot of the a lot of the projects that I've 0:30:44.160 --> 0:30:47.400 been getting the last ten years where it's basically virgin 0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:50.200 woods and we have to carve everything out of it. 0:30:50.360 --> 0:30:53.760 So the biggest budget that we've been involved with so 0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:57.960 far has been six hundred and fifty thousand. You know, 0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:00.720 even on the bigger courses, the average, which by the 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:03.160 time it's all said and done, is probably closer to 0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:09.320 two hundred thousand. But I am dreaming and ready for 0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:14.200 starting to see some seven figure budgets because there's so 0:31:14.440 --> 0:31:18.000 much that that I can do that I that I 0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:20.040 haven't been able to do. 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:20.160 You. 0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:23.200 I mean, I just I just did a course, started 0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:25.600 a course last year where I got to implement an 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:28.760 idea and sitting on for ten years and just never 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:30.000 had the right opportunity. 0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:32.440 What I what idea was that it. 0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:37.480 Was kind of a split level landing area. One of 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:40.040 the hard things for us, and of the one of 0:31:40.080 --> 0:31:42.480 the real advantages that I think you have in your 0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:48.080 game is you have such a great correlation between brisk 0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:51.560 and reward, and you know, if you execute a little 0:31:51.840 --> 0:31:54.320 little less well than your hoping. Let's say, I mean 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:56.600 you're you know, you missed the fairway by a little bit. 0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:00.640 Maybe you're in the first cut right, so you can recover, 0:32:01.360 --> 0:32:04.240 but you have to make a great shot. So often 0:32:04.280 --> 0:32:07.800 in disc golf, Historically, you make a little mistake and 0:32:07.880 --> 0:32:10.040 you got nothing. I mean, you can be in the 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:12.560 woods and the only thing you can do is pitch 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:15.320 back to the fairway ten feet and then move up. 0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:20.640 So that has been a real mission for me, is 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:24.840 to say, you know, small mistake instead of being severely punished, 0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:28.880 deserves an opportunity, right, the opportunity to recover. That's been 0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:33.360 so lacking in disc golf. So this this split level fairway, 0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:37.080 if you hit any part of it, you're rewarded with 0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:39.920 good footing and you know, a decent shot up the fairway. 0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:44.280 But you hit the higher part, you know you've got 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:46.960 an easier shot from there. You hit the lower part, 0:32:47.040 --> 0:32:49.760 now you've got more uphill to deal with, and that 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:53.920 kind of thing. So I've been real fortunate so far 0:32:54.080 --> 0:32:57.320 that I've had several clients that said, look, we want 0:32:57.360 --> 0:32:59.920 the best course that we can have, you know, give 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:04.040 in our limitations, and they say, go and do what 0:33:04.080 --> 0:33:06.800 you need to do. I mean, when the owners of 0:33:06.840 --> 0:33:12.080 Cela Ranch, after much deliberation, agreed to spend seventeen thousand 0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:15.000 dollars to put the bridge out to the island so 0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:18.000 we could incorporate the island, and we have a beautiful 0:33:18.600 --> 0:33:22.880 par five with an actual island green. I knew that 0:33:23.040 --> 0:33:24.240 they were all in So. 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:27.080 Was that island there in the in the Yeah, it was. 0:33:27.360 --> 0:33:29.080 It was just about building the bridge out to it. 0:33:30.360 --> 0:33:32.959 Yes, you had to up until that point you had 0:33:33.000 --> 0:33:35.160 to swim or I don't know. I think at the 0:33:35.240 --> 0:33:37.520 narrowest point it's only seventy feet out there, but you 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:41.200 couldn't walk out there. But they built the bridge and 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:46.840 we were able to incorporate that into the design. We're 0:33:46.880 --> 0:33:50.520 just getting into a situation now where I can create 0:33:50.640 --> 0:33:54.479 water features. I'm not a pond designer by any means, 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:59.320 but you know I can. I can recommend shapes where 0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:04.240 were you in peninsulas or greens or cheese or landing areas, 0:34:04.320 --> 0:34:08.200 and you know where the where the undulations are and 0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:13.160 the concavities and the ponds and lakes. Huge ability for 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:16.960 us to uh enhance the strategy when when we have 0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:18.360 that kind of control. 0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:21.560 So water on disc golf courses. You mentioned earlier that 0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:24.600 it might be something of a subject of controversy in 0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:29.000 the disc golf world, but just considering the relationship that 0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:34.319 players have with their discs, what's when when you have 0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:37.320 a water hazard on a disc golf course and somebody 0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:40.359 throws their disc into it, what happens. 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:48.640 Then, Uh, well, they lose a stroke. I probably shouldn't 0:34:48.719 --> 0:34:52.520 comment on some things that that might happen at that 0:34:52.920 --> 0:34:55.000 at that point, but let's say, you know, from a 0:34:55.040 --> 0:34:59.759 design perspective, if it's used properly, if people have the 0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:02.799 opp opportunity to play around it and play safe, that 0:35:02.960 --> 0:35:07.400 is key. Some courses at this point maybe don't always 0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:12.600 offer that. But if you add to the the risk, 0:35:12.719 --> 0:35:15.640 you know, and you use the water features so that 0:35:15.719 --> 0:35:19.359 it's beneficial to play close to it, but you don't 0:35:19.360 --> 0:35:22.120 want to get in it, that's a huge deal. And 0:35:22.200 --> 0:35:24.080 I'll just tell you real quick. I don't know if 0:35:24.120 --> 0:35:27.920 you've seen this, but there are a lot of courses, 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:29.960 you know, where they don't have the water, they don't 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:33.880 have the natural terrain, and the designers, particularly for tournaments, 0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:38.520 they'll just put down rope and pretend that that's a pond. 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:43.120 And you know, obviously that can enhance the strategy, but 0:35:43.800 --> 0:35:47.280 it's not the same, right. I mean, aesthetics are important 0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:50.000 to us just as they are to you. And for 0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:53.040 someone to be on the wrong side of the rope 0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:55.879 and say, you know, I'm high and dry and you're 0:35:55.920 --> 0:36:00.000 telling me I have to take a stroke. Psychologically, it's 0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:03.439 it's very different. So you know, I'm not a fan. 0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:09.680 I would much prefer water. And look, we're we're at 0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:12.400 a stage in our development where we're trying different things 0:36:12.440 --> 0:36:15.160 and what works and what doesn't. And if somebody says, look, 0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:17.319 I don't have water, what am I supposed to do. 0:36:17.840 --> 0:36:19.920 I'm not looking to pick a fight. I'm just saying 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:25.759 it's preferable to have real water. Then just kind of pretending. 0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:28.799 So it's it's not for me, And you know, to me, 0:36:29.400 --> 0:36:32.320 I may have to spend another ten or twenty hours 0:36:32.360 --> 0:36:35.000 on that whole to get it to where it plays 0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:38.680 with sufficient strategy with without having to put rope down. 0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:40.640 But you know, to me, that's worth it. 0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:42.719 If your disc goes in the water, do you go 0:36:42.800 --> 0:36:43.359 in after it? 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:51.480 Again, I'm under legal advice. You can use your you 0:36:51.520 --> 0:36:52.839 can use your imagination. 0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:56.880 Yeah, okay, So as far as as far as hazards 0:36:56.880 --> 0:37:00.439 are concerned on a disc golf course, we've talked to water. 0:37:00.960 --> 0:37:04.480 That's obviously one. It seems to me that trees and 0:37:04.600 --> 0:37:10.160 disc golf are almost like bunkers in traditional golf in 0:37:10.200 --> 0:37:14.000 that they are kind of the primary standard hazard that 0:37:14.080 --> 0:37:17.840 creates strategy on a hole. You know, golf is played 0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:19.680 on the ground. You have to hit the ball off 0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:23.200 the ground, so obviously inconsistencies on the ground create a 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:26.960 kind of hazard for traditional golfers. Disc golfers play the 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:32.439 sport through the air and trees obstruct their paths through 0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:35.800 the air. Could you talk about how trees are used 0:37:35.800 --> 0:37:39.000 on disc golf holes and how they create what you 0:37:39.040 --> 0:37:40.320 would consider strategy. 0:37:41.040 --> 0:37:44.560 Yes, I love that question, And let me be clear, 0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:49.000 we love trees. We need trees, all right. Sometimes we 0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:53.799 have no choice but to remove them. But even in 0:37:53.840 --> 0:37:57.480 the cases where you know it's it's solid woods and 0:37:57.520 --> 0:38:01.560 we have to do something to create the fairways, my 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:05.360 job is to discover, you know, the bigger trees, the 0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:09.680 nice groupings of trees, and work around those. I don't 0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:12.759 ever put a design on paper and say, okay, go 0:38:13.200 --> 0:38:16.759 cut this shape out of the woods. And you're absolutely 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:19.520 right about the playing surface, and when you come down 0:38:19.560 --> 0:38:22.000 to it, that may be the biggest difference in the 0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:25.640 biggest challenge for us. Like I said, you know, you 0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:29.839 have the first cut, and it's clear that people don't 0:38:29.840 --> 0:38:32.240 want to be in that right, it makes no difference 0:38:32.239 --> 0:38:37.640 to us. Sand traps so critical to traditional golf, mean 0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:40.000 nothing to us, right, we would just stand in it 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:43.480 and throw out of it. I've actually been been trying 0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:46.640 to figure out if there is an analogous thing in 0:38:46.680 --> 0:38:49.359 disc golf to a fried egg, and I haven't. I 0:38:49.480 --> 0:38:51.759 haven't been able to figure that out. 0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:54.080 But maybe maybe getting stuck in a tree. 0:38:54.160 --> 0:38:58.160 Well, getting stuck in a tree, yeah, actually used to 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:00.400 be if you were above two meters used to be 0:39:00.400 --> 0:39:03.440 a stroke penalty. We got rid of that, although some 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:06.440 designers can still use it if they want. So if 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:08.560 you're if you're stuck in a tree, you bring your 0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:11.520 lie straight down and you may be behind the tree, 0:39:12.400 --> 0:39:15.200 which I think is what you were getting at. So 0:39:15.320 --> 0:39:19.120 we need to we need to ensure a variety of 0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:22.600 shots and a variety of fairway shapes because we want 0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:27.440 it to be, you know, a complex and rich experience. 0:39:27.600 --> 0:39:33.280 So don't forget we're we're able to go around trees 0:39:33.640 --> 0:39:36.560 right in ways that you can't, and you know, using 0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:39.239 the skip shot or the roll shot, sometimes we can 0:39:39.280 --> 0:39:43.960 go underneath things. So we need to have a variety 0:39:44.719 --> 0:39:50.440 of fairway width, a variety of shot shapes, and so 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:55.799 it's been a challenge and really a mission for me 0:39:56.440 --> 0:39:59.080 to try to find a way to use whatever we have, 0:39:59.360 --> 0:40:03.840 which is merrily trees the way golf designers use the 0:40:03.920 --> 0:40:09.120 different cuts of grass and sand traps. So I try 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:11.760 to get to where if you make a small mistake 0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:15.759 and you're you know, you're not an ideal position where 0:40:15.760 --> 0:40:19.600 you have a fair let's say, a sixty to eighty 0:40:19.680 --> 0:40:22.160 percent opportunity to get to where you want to on 0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:24.600 the next shot. You've missed the fairway a little bit. 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:26.840 I want to make sure you know that you have 0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:31.480 the ability to recover. So the primary thing that I 0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:35.600 do is take that area quote unquote off the fairway 0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:40.080 and open it up enough to open some alleys for 0:40:40.160 --> 0:40:43.600 you so that you know, now you've got to hit 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:47.080 instead of a ten to twenty foot gap, now you've 0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:49.440 got to hit a four to five foot gap, and 0:40:49.560 --> 0:40:53.080 if you can hit that shot, you can still save 0:40:53.120 --> 0:40:55.480 your birdy or save your par as the case may be. 0:40:56.400 --> 0:41:01.400 But being able to do that, which is very time consuming, 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:04.080 and you know it takes it takes a lot of 0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:06.520 work to do it. It's very difficult because you know, 0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:09.000 if I miss the fairway, by a foot or if 0:41:09.040 --> 0:41:11.920 I miss it by three feet, I still want, you know, 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:14.800 both of those players to have an opportunity to recover. 0:41:14.920 --> 0:41:20.040 But basically creating secondary and tertiary gaps off the fairway 0:41:20.120 --> 0:41:24.960 for people to recover. Now, there's there's other ways to 0:41:25.960 --> 0:41:30.839 do that than just you know, making tight gaps by 0:41:30.920 --> 0:41:35.200 using the elevation and the angle that the player requires. 0:41:35.719 --> 0:41:39.399 Sometimes the area you have to throw through is height 0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:42.759 limited instead of just left and right. So those are 0:41:42.800 --> 0:41:48.520 all techniques difficult, but to me, really important techniques so 0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:54.880 that we give people the opportunity to recover from mistakes, 0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:57.920 because that's such an important part of the golf experience, 0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:01.160 I think, right, I mean, that's what shot do you 0:42:01.280 --> 0:42:03.160 talk about at the end of the day, right when 0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:05.480 you're with your friends. It's like, oh my god. You know, 0:42:05.560 --> 0:42:07.319 I was really in a mind. I didn't know if 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:09.480 I could get out of there, and I just hit 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:13.040 it perfectly, or I threw it perfectly and I saved 0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:16.120 my birdie. You know, those are the ones that you 0:42:16.200 --> 0:42:18.640 talk about and right, those are the ones that keep 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:21.760 you coming back in a lot of instances. So being 0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:26.040 able to create that for people is really important. And 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:31.600 I realized several years ago that if I can get 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:36.640 better at what I do, people will enjoy the experience 0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:40.319 of playing the course and not even be able to 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:43.560 say why right, because it has to work and it 0:42:43.640 --> 0:42:47.920 has to look natural. It can't feel contrived. They just 0:42:48.000 --> 0:42:51.760 have to say, yeah, you know, I got in trouble, 0:42:51.840 --> 0:42:54.880 I made some great shots and I can't put my 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:57.760 finger on it, but I loved playing that course. 0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:02.480 That's so true that the good, good design is often 0:43:02.600 --> 0:43:06.440 not noticed by the player, who nonetheless is having a 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:08.440 lot of fun, even if they don't know how to 0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:11.440 express why yes exactly. 0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:14.440 And of course, the downside of it, which I'm sure 0:43:14.480 --> 0:43:19.239 all golf course architects are familiar with, is the end 0:43:19.320 --> 0:43:21.400 result is people go, I could have designed that. 0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:24.000 Yeah, that looks Easy's. 0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:26.759 What's the big deal? Right? But that's where you want 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:28.520 to be. It's like, well, you know, I mean, what 0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:32.920 does it take. You throw some bunkers out there, and 0:43:33.000 --> 0:43:35.360 you know, you put some mounds and you undulate the 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:38.080 green and what's uh, what's the big deal? But the 0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:41.279 truth is there are hundreds of things that go into 0:43:41.280 --> 0:43:44.759 the decision making process, and so if you if you 0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:48.880 do it right, people can just enjoy it and you know, 0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:51.279 don't don't even know how much you really did. 0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:54.120 Right, So it sounds like what you're talking about with 0:43:54.200 --> 0:43:59.200 trees and gaps between trees is essentially creating different options 0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:03.200 with different levels of risk and reward, ye, both off 0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:06.800 the tee and on recovery. So off the tee, maybe 0:44:06.800 --> 0:44:09.759 you have a gap that's pretty wide but kind of 0:44:09.800 --> 0:44:12.040 takes you the long way around or doesn't give you 0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:14.280 that great of an angle to the pin or the basket, 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:17.160 and a narrow gap that kind of takes you straight 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:18.839 there and if you hit it, you're great. But if 0:44:18.840 --> 0:44:21.160 you don't hit it, then you're screwed. But then on 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:24.640 the second shot, if you're off the beaten path of 0:44:24.680 --> 0:44:28.240 the hole, then you have again another set of gaps 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:32.319 between trees, another set of options to choose between and 0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:35.480 decide what level of risk you're willing to bear. Does 0:44:35.520 --> 0:44:37.080 that sound? Does that resonate with you? 0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:40.359 Yes, you're exactly right. And that's that's another thing that 0:44:40.400 --> 0:44:44.759 I really focus on. I mean, for me, the concepts 0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:49.040 of strategy and the goals of design are similar in 0:44:49.120 --> 0:44:53.000 golf and disc golf, that how we achieve that is 0:44:53.040 --> 0:44:55.560 going to be very different, right, and one of the 0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:59.080 most obvious things is you know, you can be standing 0:44:59.120 --> 0:45:02.760 on a tee and have two or three or four 0:45:03.040 --> 0:45:07.720 completely different routes that you can take right and anybody 0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:09.319 goes well, you know, I can make a hole with 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:13.920 four routes, but you have to balance all the options right. So, 0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:17.879 like you said, this route is easier off the tee. 0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:20.520 You know, I'm not likely to get in trouble. But 0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:23.480 even if I hit it well, I'm not going to 0:45:23.520 --> 0:45:26.680 be in as good a position as if I take 0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:31.120 the riskier route and I nail it and I'm exactly 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:33.960 where I want to be. So to me, the first 0:45:34.080 --> 0:45:36.440 level is if I can make a hole with a 0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:42.680 bunch of different options and different players take different routes, 0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:47.520 that's a win. But the bigger win is when one 0:45:47.600 --> 0:45:51.160 individual player, every time they step up to the hole, 0:45:51.960 --> 0:45:54.080 I'll say, well, I tried it this way last time 0:45:54.480 --> 0:45:57.720 and it really didn't work, so I'm thinking about going 0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:01.320 this way, or you know, my left to right shot 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:03.919 really isn't working today, so I'm going to do that. 0:46:04.400 --> 0:46:09.200 And it's so important for me because back in the 0:46:09.200 --> 0:46:11.520 old days, when I first started playing, there was only 0:46:11.600 --> 0:46:14.880 one way to play every hole. I knew before I 0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:17.560 got out of the shower that morning that I'm whole sixteen. 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:20.200 I was going to throw a rock at this particular 0:46:20.239 --> 0:46:24.440 angle and seventy five percent of full power and it 0:46:24.480 --> 0:46:27.880 was going to work or it isn't. So you guys, 0:46:28.360 --> 0:46:31.880 course management and strategy is such a big part of 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:37.000 your game, and I've been trying to bring that into 0:46:37.040 --> 0:46:40.600 our game, and you know, just so you know, all 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:43.160 that becomes so much harder for us because we have 0:46:43.320 --> 0:46:49.560 such a huge spectrum of skills between beginning players and 0:46:49.880 --> 0:46:53.719 players who are really good. So, and you tell me 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:56.200 if you think I have my numbers wrong. Here, Let's 0:46:56.200 --> 0:47:01.920 say a young, fairly athletic person who's never played golf before. 0:47:02.680 --> 0:47:05.120 You can, you know, give them a lesson and put 0:47:05.160 --> 0:47:07.560 him on the range for a couple hours, and odds 0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:10.759 are that first day that person's going to hit a 0:47:10.760 --> 0:47:11.759 ball two hundred. 0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:17.040 Yards something like that. Depends on gender and age, I suppose, 0:47:17.239 --> 0:47:19.719 but but yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to 0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:25.239 say generally that if somebody's pretty strong and athletic, even 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:27.160 if they don't have great technique, and even if they 0:47:27.160 --> 0:47:29.120 aren't keeping the ball in the face of the planet, 0:47:29.440 --> 0:47:31.760 then they can they can hit the ball a pretty 0:47:31.800 --> 0:47:35.200 long ways, almost almost right away. Yeah, so the. 0:47:36.000 --> 0:47:40.279 Right not consistently, yeah, but it's doable. And let's do 0:47:40.360 --> 0:47:43.560 apples to apples. Let's say a young athletic male who 0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:47.080 hits two hundred yards and last time I checked, you're 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:49.360 you're kind of middle of the pack on the PGA 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:51.400 tour if you're averaging two sixty. 0:47:51.640 --> 0:47:54.880 Right, it's a little more than that now, But I 0:47:54.880 --> 0:47:57.319 think you know, the point that you're building towards is 0:47:57.360 --> 0:48:01.120 that golfers, even though there's a big disparity between the 0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:03.640 distance of a professional that a male professional hits the 0:48:03.680 --> 0:48:08.680 ball and a male amateur in his twenties or thirties 0:48:08.760 --> 0:48:10.840 hit the ball. Even though there's a pretty big difference, 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:16.440 that difference in disc golf exactly massive. I mean, it's 0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:19.440 it's not even if people think it's big and traditional 0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:22.080 golf and disc golf. I've seen some of these professionals 0:48:22.120 --> 0:48:23.719 through the disc Oh my. 0:48:23.760 --> 0:48:29.000 God, exactly. So let's say our guy in our example 0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:32.880 is you know, maybe seventy percent of the way to 0:48:33.920 --> 0:48:36.920 middle of the pack PGA guys, right, the gods of 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:41.799 golf day one, not consistently, but in disc golf, you 0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:44.760 can start and work your butt off for a month 0:48:45.400 --> 0:48:48.480 to get to three hundred feet. And I mean, I 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:51.160 know people who you know have been playing for years 0:48:51.200 --> 0:48:55.080 and can't throw three hundred feet and that is half 0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:57.560 or maybe even a little less than half of what 0:48:57.800 --> 0:49:01.560 the what the top pros can throw. So you know, 0:49:02.000 --> 0:49:04.600 what kind of challenge does that make for the designer 0:49:04.680 --> 0:49:07.479 knowing that all these different people have to be able 0:49:07.480 --> 0:49:09.799 to use the course and enjoy it, and par has 0:49:09.840 --> 0:49:13.680 to make sense for them and all that, so, you know, 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:17.000 and part of it comes from the design of the discs. 0:49:17.080 --> 0:49:21.440 Right as we make discs that can go farther, some 0:49:21.600 --> 0:49:24.040 people who are beginners may not even be able to 0:49:24.040 --> 0:49:26.440 take advantage of that technology. So it's kind of the 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:30.239 rich get richer. I don't know if that's true with drivers. Mean, 0:49:30.640 --> 0:49:33.080 I kind of assume if you give me a driver 0:49:33.160 --> 0:49:35.040 with a big head, I'm going to be able to 0:49:35.360 --> 0:49:37.000 hit farther. Is that not the case? 0:49:37.640 --> 0:49:41.120 Yeah, But what you're talking about is pretty much exactly 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:44.560 the case and traditional golf right now, in the sense 0:49:44.640 --> 0:49:48.320 that the design of the driver face and the spin 0:49:48.480 --> 0:49:53.320 model of the golf ball makes it so that players 0:49:53.360 --> 0:49:55.960 with a lot of clubhead speed can take advantage of 0:49:56.000 --> 0:49:58.760 those things in a way that a normal person would 0:49:58.800 --> 0:50:03.000 never imagine. And so it sounds like there's there's Is 0:50:03.040 --> 0:50:07.120 there a technology debate right now in disc golf? Are 0:50:07.160 --> 0:50:09.759 people worried about where disc technology is going? 0:50:11.120 --> 0:50:17.640 Yes, However, in one sense, we're like the golf world 0:50:17.760 --> 0:50:20.279 in that the average person that says, Wow, you're gonna 0:50:20.320 --> 0:50:22.440 let me hit it farther, You're going to give me 0:50:22.480 --> 0:50:24.960 more spin control, you know, give me, give me a gimmick. 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:28.640 And you know, you're not worried about courses being obsolete 0:50:28.680 --> 0:50:35.399 for them, but because of you know, where are our 0:50:35.560 --> 0:50:40.480 design is? I mean, almost everything gets obsoleted as the 0:50:40.520 --> 0:50:44.359 technology changes and as the players get better, right, they're 0:50:44.400 --> 0:50:47.919 getting better conditioned, and they're now that they're making more money, 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:50.799 they can train more. You know, they don't have to 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:53.480 be working a job. You know, you can quit your 0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:57.440 job and go on tour more or less. So that 0:50:57.440 --> 0:50:59.480 that all is part of it. 0:51:00.480 --> 0:51:03.399 So this we're talking sort of about things that are 0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:07.000 happening now, things that are changing in disc golf. Last 0:51:07.120 --> 0:51:12.520 question here, how do you hope disc golf design evolves 0:51:12.640 --> 0:51:15.960 in the future or where do you think disc golf 0:51:16.000 --> 0:51:19.920 design is going. Is there going to be a response 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:23.880 to the increasing distances that the elite players are throwing 0:51:23.920 --> 0:51:27.600 the disc? Are there going to be changes related to 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:32.360 more courses being built or greater budgets being spent on courses? 0:51:32.960 --> 0:51:35.120 What do you think the next you know what ten 0:51:35.200 --> 0:51:37.320 twenty years look like in your field? 0:51:37.920 --> 0:51:42.319 Well, I you know, the sport is growing, so it 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:45.520 seems like it's growing so rapidly, and it is, but 0:51:45.680 --> 0:51:48.200 if you look back, it's been it's been really steady 0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:51.120 over the last few decades. You know, you mentioned I 0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:53.680 think maybe before we started that you'd seen disc golf 0:51:53.680 --> 0:51:57.120 on ESPN two recently. That's a huge step for us 0:51:57.600 --> 0:52:00.680 to have the finals of the Disc Golf Pro Tour 0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:04.279 covered on ESPN two an hour for the for the 0:52:04.320 --> 0:52:07.000 men and an hour for the women, and did well 0:52:07.120 --> 0:52:09.680 enough that it got replayed again a few weeks later, 0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:12.520 and I think maybe even a third time. So there 0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:19.080 is so much in our future and with more players, 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:26.120 bigger purses, you know, no doubt, we always want better courses. 0:52:26.680 --> 0:52:31.160 And you know, property owners understand that disc golfers are 0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:34.840 like traditional golfers and that they love their sports so much. 0:52:35.560 --> 0:52:39.560 They will travel, they will plan vacations around disc golf. 0:52:39.640 --> 0:52:42.839 They will choose where they take a job based on 0:52:42.920 --> 0:52:45.280 disc golf, they will choose where they go to school 0:52:45.320 --> 0:52:51.640 based on disc golf. And so when those factors become 0:52:52.120 --> 0:52:56.040 an opportunity to bring income to a community or to 0:52:56.120 --> 0:53:00.359 a facility, you know, whereas twenty years ago a city 0:53:00.400 --> 0:53:02.279 would put in a disc golf course and just be 0:53:02.320 --> 0:53:04.319 a drain on their budget. But now if I can 0:53:04.320 --> 0:53:07.240 build a private facility and I'm going to get green spees, 0:53:07.280 --> 0:53:09.600 I'm going to get lodging and the economic impact that 0:53:09.640 --> 0:53:13.320 comes with it, that just gives everybody an incentive to 0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:16.960 keep raising the bar, which I'm excited about because I 0:53:17.120 --> 0:53:22.719 have a vision for kind of the next level of 0:53:22.760 --> 0:53:25.040 what happens in course design, and then I have a 0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:29.560 vision for for what happens after that. So you know, 0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:32.680 keeping in mind that you know, designing a disc golf 0:53:32.719 --> 0:53:36.480 course is a different set of skills from designing a 0:53:36.520 --> 0:53:39.920 golf course. That you know, we're going to have different 0:53:40.320 --> 0:53:43.160 needs as you brought up in terms of, you know, 0:53:43.440 --> 0:53:46.839 the type of properties. But we're getting better properties, we're 0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:50.880 getting better budgets, we can we can do more in 0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:54.160 the design than we've been able to do and all 0:53:54.320 --> 0:53:57.919 that will allow us to make the experience not only 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:03.680 more enjoyable for every buddy, but as you said, to 0:54:03.719 --> 0:54:07.960 make the tournament courses more challenging and more fair and 0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:11.759 more rewarding for the top players. So I mean, believe me, 0:54:12.200 --> 0:54:15.839 I have a vision for all kinds of design features 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:20.560 and player experiences that we have not had the opportunity 0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:25.440 to create. Yet. We are absolutely headed that way. There's 0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:27.640 so much that we haven't done, or so much that 0:54:27.719 --> 0:54:30.080 we've just kind of put our toe in the water 0:54:31.120 --> 0:54:37.200 and very very bright future. You know, those bigger budgets 0:54:37.200 --> 0:54:39.840 are going to be there, and it's going to be 0:54:39.880 --> 0:54:43.320 worth it because you know, whoever puts up the money 0:54:43.440 --> 0:54:46.160 is going to reap the rewards from the from the 0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:49.239 players that they get. So tell all your people in 0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:53.280 the golf world, start to start setting some money aside 0:54:53.280 --> 0:54:55.279 for disc golf. It's going to be worth it. 0:54:55.719 --> 0:54:59.640 Yeah. Well, you know, from a golf perspective, something that 0:54:59.719 --> 0:55:02.520 is so so tremendously A number of things are tremendously 0:55:02.560 --> 0:55:03.960 appealing about disc golf. 0:55:04.000 --> 0:55:04.200 To me. 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:08.080 A couple of things about the courses that I've noticed 0:55:08.800 --> 0:55:12.520 one and you talked about this, the courses the designs 0:55:12.560 --> 0:55:15.759 are about finding things in the landscape, and that's how 0:55:15.800 --> 0:55:19.359 golf really used to be. More there are designers in 0:55:19.480 --> 0:55:23.239 traditional golf who do that now. But you know, these 0:55:23.280 --> 0:55:27.600 courses are so natural and it's just lovely how the 0:55:27.600 --> 0:55:31.680 good holes use the landscape and use the natural features there. 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:36.080 But then at the same time, you know, the fact 0:55:36.120 --> 0:55:40.560 that they're natural allows them to be accessible, allows the 0:55:40.600 --> 0:55:44.560 green fees to be very low, and that's really appealing 0:55:44.600 --> 0:55:47.040 as well. And so I wonder if you're at all 0:55:47.080 --> 0:55:51.600 worried about that aspect of disc golf going away as 0:55:51.680 --> 0:55:55.160 more money and more popularity comes to the sport. 0:55:55.440 --> 0:56:00.520 Two things. One, I think the old school, city heart 0:56:00.920 --> 0:56:04.120 free to play courses are not going away. Those are 0:56:05.280 --> 0:56:07.600 far into our future, always going to be there, so 0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:10.759 people don't have to worry about, you know, oh my god, 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:13.839 we're building you know, these big disc golf resorts or 0:56:13.880 --> 0:56:17.280 whatever's coming, and we're going to lose where we came from. Okay, 0:56:17.520 --> 0:56:21.920 that's that's not going to happen. Number Two, for me, 0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:28.200 you're absolutely right right. Using the natural features is where 0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:32.800 we come from. It is a big appeal for the 0:56:32.960 --> 0:56:38.440 sport and for our clientele. So I feel like, I 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:42.440 need to stay on that path. There's going to be 0:56:42.520 --> 0:56:46.959 times when you know, this natural feature isn't quite big 0:56:47.040 --> 0:56:49.840 enough for me to use as a landing area. So maybe, 0:56:50.040 --> 0:56:52.160 you know, I need to do a little bit to 0:56:52.239 --> 0:56:55.799 make it a little bigger, maybe augment it. But I 0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:59.000 don't see us saying, okay, we're going to seat it 0:56:59.239 --> 0:57:03.560 like a golf course worse, and we don't. We can 0:57:03.760 --> 0:57:07.799 look beautiful without doing that, and we don't need that. 0:57:08.600 --> 0:57:11.080 So somebody said to me, you know, if you if 0:57:11.080 --> 0:57:13.840 you had an unlimited budget and you could build whatever 0:57:13.920 --> 0:57:16.040 features you wanted to do and put the you know, 0:57:16.120 --> 0:57:20.160 big trees wherever you wanted to, I I'm not sure 0:57:20.560 --> 0:57:23.000 I'd want to do it that way. I mean, it's 0:57:23.040 --> 0:57:29.240 it's great to have more control, right, but using the 0:57:29.320 --> 0:57:34.560 natural features also make every course different from from all 0:57:34.600 --> 0:57:38.040 the rest. So yes, I want to I want to 0:57:38.080 --> 0:57:41.680 have that creative control and be able to, you know, 0:57:41.760 --> 0:57:44.040 make the slopes that I want and the flat areas 0:57:44.040 --> 0:57:46.840 that I want, and the and the water features that 0:57:46.920 --> 0:57:50.680 I want. But it's always got to stay in line 0:57:51.040 --> 0:57:55.600 with where disc golf came from. And I mean, my god, 0:57:55.760 --> 0:57:59.120 look look at look at the backlash you know the 0:57:59.160 --> 0:58:04.200 golf has had over the years from using fertilizers and chemicals, 0:58:04.240 --> 0:58:07.040 and you know we don't need to go there, right 0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:11.080 and we live in an era where that is even 0:58:11.560 --> 0:58:14.360 more frowned upon than it used to be. So the 0:58:14.480 --> 0:58:17.960 natural aspect of it is very important. I want to 0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:22.760 be able to keep innovating within that tradition and framework 0:58:22.840 --> 0:58:26.440 that disc golf has. Y would I love to be 0:58:26.480 --> 0:58:29.240 able to plant a huge tree somewhere as opposed to 0:58:29.320 --> 0:58:32.440 planning a fifteen foot tree and waiting for it to grow. Sure, 0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:37.240 but I think I think you're absolutely right. We would 0:58:37.240 --> 0:58:41.439 be disappointing our own clientele if we got too far 0:58:41.480 --> 0:58:46.080 away from just being out there in nature is such 0:58:46.080 --> 0:58:48.640 a big part of it. So yes, bring on the 0:58:48.640 --> 0:58:52.200 big budgets, don't forget to hire a great designer. We'll 0:58:52.320 --> 0:58:55.920 keep it natural looking and we'll make it fun for 0:58:55.960 --> 0:58:59.960 everybody and challenging for the top pros. That is all doable. 0:59:00.560 --> 0:59:19.800 I've seen it. We're going to get there. Mhm.