Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. On the February two thousand two,
Speaker 1: while the world watched on in horror and disbelief, Russian
Speaker 1: forces invaded the independent nation of Ukraine. While Ukrainian forces
Speaker 1: continue to fight for democracy, their right to sovereignty, and
Speaker 1: the soul of their country. My guests today are working
Speaker 1: to ensure their stories are told. Ida Sawyer is the
Speaker 1: director of the Crisis and Conflict Division at Human Rights Watch.
Speaker 1: The organization is currently on the ground documenting alleged war
Speaker 1: crimes in Ukraine. Sawyer shared with us some of their
Speaker 1: devastating findings and what the organization plans to do with
Speaker 1: these reports. But first I'm talking with Australian photojournalist Bryce Wilson.
Speaker 1: Wilson has documented the humanitarian crisis in Ukraine since two
Speaker 1: thousand fifteen. He was the first Australian journalist to embed
Speaker 1: with the Ukrainian Special Forces covering the conflict in the
Speaker 1: don Bass region. His work has been featured on ABC Australia,
Speaker 1: The Daily Mail and Sky News, and despite his resistance
Speaker 1: to social media, Wilson's Instagram and Twitter feed provided a
Speaker 1: gripping account of the front lines of the Russian invasion.
Speaker 1: That's crazy. I can't believe that Russia has declared war
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. As soon as the declaration, Oh, that's a missile.
Speaker 1: That's a missile. That's a missile. Bryce Wilson joined me
Speaker 1: at five am Australian time, after returning home for a
Speaker 1: well deserved break from reporting in Ukraine. I wanted to
Speaker 1: know how he found his way to conflict photo journalism.
Speaker 1: I found photography through a hobby, so initially I did
Speaker 1: do quite general work like that, like did some food photography,
Speaker 1: did photographs of my friends, made portraits. The war in
Speaker 1: Ukraine was in Australian television a lot because Australians were
Speaker 1: killed when Flight MH seventeen was shut down and the
Speaker 1: news coverage sort of stopped around the war. And then
Speaker 1: I realized that with the skills and the equipment that
Speaker 1: I had, I could probably do my own photojournalism. And
Speaker 1: that's when I went to Ukraine the first time. In
Speaker 1: Who Sent You There? I was freelancing, so I had
Speaker 1: just lost a job and I used my redundancy payout
Speaker 1: to fund my work in Ukraine that first time, and
Speaker 1: maybe naively. I contacted the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense and
Speaker 1: they told me that even freelance media could embed with
Speaker 1: the military so long as I leaded some forms and
Speaker 1: had body armor and everything. So yeah, in about I
Speaker 1: went to Ukraine for the first time with my gear
Speaker 1: and the cash REMI redundancy pay out and just figured
Speaker 1: out how to do journalism. And ever since then, that
Speaker 1: was kind of the catalyst for why I returned, because
Speaker 1: the relationships that I had made with people there from
Speaker 1: my first experiences in many ways stuck with me and
Speaker 1: they're still the same people. I'm still in touch with
Speaker 1: a lot of the people I met during that in
Speaker 1: bed and they've all helped me with my work as
Speaker 1: it has continued. So I'm assuming that that you had
Speaker 1: no formal training in terms of photojournalism or journalism from
Speaker 1: my radio and it is he's shaking his head no,
Speaker 1: with a sly smile in his face. So no formal
Speaker 1: training in photojournalism, the answer is no, correct. Yeah, even
Speaker 1: education wise, my background was in writing, and professionally I
Speaker 1: was working in different creative services agencies. Like I had
Speaker 1: all these fundamental little skills that were a bigger part
Speaker 1: of doing multimedia production work, but no formal training in
Speaker 1: journalism or anything related to that. So the embedded was
Speaker 1: your first real assignment of something that's would be a
Speaker 1: precursor of the work you've been doing, and you're there,
Speaker 1: what was going on in that you were chronicling. So
Speaker 1: the assignment that I had sent myself on that was
Speaker 1: my first practical experience doing journalism, and it was very
Speaker 1: much a thing of lean in the field because the
Speaker 1: place where I was sent was a small town very
Speaker 1: close to the Donetsk airport, which is just on the
Speaker 1: fringe of one of the occupied capital cities in the east,
Speaker 1: where there is now a major escalation seemingly imminent. I
Speaker 1: just say that because after the Russian military's goals Kiev
Speaker 1: region and throughout Ukraine have evolved a little bit. They're
Speaker 1: now focusing on the eastern part of Ukraine and they're
Speaker 1: talking about that being the primary objective. So it seems
Speaker 1: to me very likely that there will be a major
Speaker 1: escalation of the war in that area, specifically, not just
Speaker 1: in Kiev and western Ukraine. And so back then a
Speaker 1: war has been going on in Ukraine for eight years.
Speaker 1: The Russian military annexed Crimea and then was directly involved
Speaker 1: in in essentially fomenting a separatist uprising in some parts
Speaker 1: of the country. Small groups of people that wanted to
Speaker 1: break away from Ukraine, very small groups of people, received
Speaker 1: military support, funding as well as espionage level stuff from
Speaker 1: the Russian military and government, and they broke off two
Speaker 1: parts of eastern Ukraine called the Donetsk People's Republic and
Speaker 1: the Luhansk People's Republic. Those territories actually occupied a lot
Speaker 1: of eastern Ukraine, and then from the Ukrainian military and
Speaker 1: a lot of those were volunteers, pushed the so called
Speaker 1: People's Republic's military forces very close to the border with Russia,
Speaker 1: and then the Russian military launched an incursion, sent their
Speaker 1: military over the border from Russia into Ukraine to fight
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian military. Since then, a number of somewhat effective
Speaker 1: ceasefires have been implemented called the Mintsk Agreements, and those
Speaker 1: Minsk agreements largely froze the front line and conflict in
Speaker 1: place where it was before this current invasion started. So
Speaker 1: when I went there in for the first time, there
Speaker 1: were still significant fighting every day. So the Russia said
Speaker 1: them doing little out of town tryouts. If you would
Speaker 1: have been doing a lot of little rehearsals for this
Speaker 1: big invasion for quite a while now, correct. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a really great way to put it. And I think
Speaker 1: the thing that separates now versus previously the Russian military,
Speaker 1: for example, when they shot down Flight MH seventeen, there
Speaker 1: was a whole bunch of shadow play and trickery around.
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't us, it was people that had
Speaker 1: our hardware. We're not actually in the dom bus. It's
Speaker 1: people that found our tanks. There was this joke that
Speaker 1: they were miners and they found all this equipment stored underground.
Speaker 1: There was all this proof that heavily implicated the Russian
Speaker 1: military as having been in the east of Ukraine, but
Speaker 1: they wouldn't really play into the uncertainty of it all.
Speaker 1: And it was almost a proxy war where the Russian
Speaker 1: military was directly involved in on the ground, but they
Speaker 1: hid behind the idea that it was separatists doing this,
Speaker 1: the rebels. Yes, and they blamed it on separatists and
Speaker 1: your rebels in Dulansk and Donetsk, correct, because you were
Speaker 1: there for both of those, correct incursions, and and so,
Speaker 1: but there were no direct Soviet troops on the ground,
Speaker 1: tanks and weaponry or were there there were so Russian
Speaker 1: military hardware and soldiers were present at some of the
Speaker 1: largest battles in the bus in the early days of
Speaker 1: the war, and because the Ukrainian military counter offensive to
Speaker 1: recapture the occupied territories was so effective, the so called
Speaker 1: separatist forces were pushed very close to the Russian border,
Speaker 1: and that's when the Russian military started launching artillery strikes
Speaker 1: from across the Russian border into Ukraine. They sent their
Speaker 1: military forces in to fight the Ukrainian military actively, and
Speaker 1: the battles where the Russian military participated then was some
Speaker 1: of the most bloody in the history of the war
Speaker 1: at that point. And in one battle, for example, called
Speaker 1: illa Weis, a large percentage of the Ukrainian armed forces
Speaker 1: were encircled and during a breakout humanitarian corridor which was
Speaker 1: offered by the Russian military, a large convoy of Ukrainian
Speaker 1: military personnel left and then the Russian military bombarded that
Speaker 1: convoy with artillery and indirect fire and it killed potentially
Speaker 1: up to a thousand people. During these don Bass battles
Speaker 1: that you covered in six seven years ago were atrocities
Speaker 1: playing then when you hear reports about what's going on
Speaker 1: in Ukraine now? Does it match what you saw years ago?
Speaker 1: I mean as a matter of what level, because I
Speaker 1: saw atrocious things I saw still it's very surreal to
Speaker 1: me because the scenes and events I'm seeing now did
Speaker 1: take place seven years ago. I saw destroyed neighborhoods, maimed bodies,
Speaker 1: missing legs, civilians, homes are destroyed, civilians killed by the war.
Speaker 1: I saw mass graves, not on the same scale, but
Speaker 1: graves where the local separatist forces in that area had
Speaker 1: just dumped people. Civilians from the nearby area dumped their
Speaker 1: own dead personnel when they left. A lot of the
Speaker 1: events that we're seeing now did take place then, It's
Speaker 1: just the scale now, I think, because of that same
Speaker 1: reason that the Russian forces were not their quote unquote,
Speaker 1: there was a lot more subterfuge, whereas now that it's
Speaker 1: all out in the open and not in the shadows,
Speaker 1: everything has been ramped up and scaled up significantly. So therefore,
Speaker 1: I'm assuming you you weren't surprised at all when things
Speaker 1: took the turn they took this year. It was heading
Speaker 1: in that direction, correct. I felt like in the days
Speaker 1: before the invasion was announced, I was already out in
Speaker 1: the don Bus reporting on infrastructure damage in don Bus,
Speaker 1: which had been a big focus of my word, And
Speaker 1: I was given information from contacts within the security services
Speaker 1: setting very clear dates when they expected that the invasion
Speaker 1: would take place, and I will say that they were
Speaker 1: very accurate. The dates that they provided turned out to
Speaker 1: be correct retroactively, and the invasion was actually moved by
Speaker 1: the Russian military and government, and the dates I was
Speaker 1: given are initially were spot on accurate. And then I
Speaker 1: have friends that were serving in the military and they
Speaker 1: were telling me to We're being told we can't leave
Speaker 1: the base. We're being told that we should prepare that
Speaker 1: the invasion is likely to start tomorrow. So a couple
Speaker 1: of days out I knew pretty definitively that it was happening.
Speaker 1: But weeks beforehand, I was there to report on the
Speaker 1: escalation that was already taken place, because in the days
Speaker 1: and weeks leading up to the invasion, there was fighting
Speaker 1: in the Dumbus like I'd never experienced before, the severity
Speaker 1: of artillery, the damage to homes, cease, five violations, civilians
Speaker 1: being killed, like it all objectively increased exponentially in the
Speaker 1: like two weeks before the war started. When you show
Speaker 1: up there to don Buss again a few years later,
Speaker 1: that you know the lay of the land obviously, you
Speaker 1: know the territory, you know where to go to be
Speaker 1: safe for their place, like where does Bryce Wilson sleep?
Speaker 1: Who's paying the bill? When you go on these freelance projects,
Speaker 1: you have to fund this yourself. We did somebody pay
Speaker 1: for it. I had some offers to help with funding,
Speaker 1: but I didn't align with the organization's ethically. They were
Speaker 1: sort of towing almost this pro Russian media viewpoint, which
Speaker 1: was very concerning for me. But for all intents and purposes,
Speaker 1: all of my work since I started has been funded
Speaker 1: by myself. This was the first time that I've had
Speaker 1: any moderate commercial success for my work, But making money
Speaker 1: from doing it had never been a big priority to me.
Speaker 1: Like again, maybe naively, I thought there was like a
Speaker 1: paragon sort of value in journalism and the value of
Speaker 1: it to society, and that was the main motivator for me.
Speaker 1: So if I'm doing an assignment in somewhere like don Bus,
Speaker 1: I would stay in a city or a town very
Speaker 1: close to the front line, and then each day we
Speaker 1: would drive out to the areas where we needed to
Speaker 1: go to do reporting. But even thirty or forty kilometers
Speaker 1: away from the front line, life is relatively normal. In
Speaker 1: the evenings, I would go to a bar with some
Speaker 1: of my colleagues and we would eat a pizza for
Speaker 1: dinner and maybe have a beer or something like this.
Speaker 1: Like it's very surreal because in Key of for example,
Speaker 1: before the current invasion, people would live very normally and
Speaker 1: you could almost fault them for that, like forgetting there
Speaker 1: was a war seven hundred kilometers away. But people even
Speaker 1: thirty kilometers away from the front line would forget there
Speaker 1: was a war at times, and that was very strange.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is a sense something peculiar
Speaker 1: to them? I mean, even in the United States, someone
Speaker 1: said to me that nine eleven will eventually take its
Speaker 1: place alongside Pearl Harbor. It will become a very distant
Speaker 1: memory and Americans will forget this almost inconceivable event that
Speaker 1: happened here in New York and two one. But there's
Speaker 1: nothing peculiar to the Ukrainian nature that makes them want
Speaker 1: to carry on with life as they live it. Where
Speaker 1: is there some where is there something unique about them
Speaker 1: you've found? I mean, there are lots of things that
Speaker 1: are unique about Ukrainian people. One example I can give
Speaker 1: I was working in a village which had just been
Speaker 1: struck by artillery. A person's home was completely destroyed, their
Speaker 1: neighbors homes were destroyed. They were quite literally pulling the
Speaker 1: bodies of their neighbors out of homes around them. And
Speaker 1: I with my colleagues we hadn't eaten that day, and
Speaker 1: they just made us food in the destroyed ruins of
Speaker 1: their homes while they themselves were struggling. I've never experienced
Speaker 1: hospitality on that level before, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: anyone would help people in that instance, but we were
Speaker 1: just strange people, media personalities. There was me and two
Speaker 1: people who just came to them and they fed us
Speaker 1: out of the kindness of their own hearts. And I
Speaker 1: think that, to me was probably one of the most
Speaker 1: unique experiences I had during my assignment. I don't know
Speaker 1: how people live so close to the front line and
Speaker 1: kind of forget about the war, but I think it
Speaker 1: is because primarily the war had been going on for
Speaker 1: eight years at this point. It's part of the everyday
Speaker 1: fabric of life in some areas. Almost esthetically too, there's
Speaker 1: a whole culture around the conflict in Eastern Ukraine lives
Speaker 1: people go from checkpoints from one side of the contact
Speaker 1: line to the other every day. Like there's whole micro
Speaker 1: society and culture and experience of life solely because of
Speaker 1: the war that had been going on for eight years
Speaker 1: at that point. I also think that where you have
Speaker 1: extended conflicts like Vietnam and so forth, that people decide,
Speaker 1: this is my opinion, they make a decision to carry
Speaker 1: on with life as they know it because you know
Speaker 1: it could be over tomorrow. You know, you can live
Speaker 1: in fear, or you can try to normalize things to
Speaker 1: the best of your ability and try to you know,
Speaker 1: raise your children and grow your food or obviously I'm
Speaker 1: talking about Southeast Asia now. But one thing I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: what would you say is your understanding of what percentage
Speaker 1: what fraction is it a significant fraction of people who
Speaker 1: want to reunify with Russia. What percentage of the Ukrainian
Speaker 1: people are Russian sympathizers from your experience. In my experience,
Speaker 1: even in the East, I met very few people that
Speaker 1: truly wanted that unification. There's a lot of information around
Speaker 1: why the separatist republics exist, What are their motivators, what
Speaker 1: is the true support numbers? And to the best of
Speaker 1: my knowledge, even earlier in the war, like in the
Speaker 1: days before the separatists sort of uprisings happened, it was
Speaker 1: single percentage figures and low single percentage figures. And as
Speaker 1: time has gone on the eastern areas there's been a
Speaker 1: mass exodus of people into government controlled territories. And now
Speaker 1: I believe that a significant percentage of people that have
Speaker 1: received Russian passports and there's a whole I guess, absorption
Speaker 1: of that region into Russia effectively. But in my experience
Speaker 1: from west to east of the country, north to south,
Speaker 1: like pre and during the war, I never met anybody
Speaker 1: that truly supported this sentiment that like we in Ukraine
Speaker 1: want to be a part of Russia. It's not to
Speaker 1: say that they don't exist. I talked with people that
Speaker 1: had more pro Russian ideologies, but I never met someone
Speaker 1: our right, Is it just about tradition? What is it
Speaker 1: about Russia let alone? What is it about Putin that
Speaker 1: they want to align themselves with that government in that country?
Speaker 1: I think yes. So many people in those areas might
Speaker 1: have had memories of when the Soviet Union was a
Speaker 1: bigger part of their lives and economically, especially in the
Speaker 1: dom bast During the height of the USSR and the
Speaker 1: history of the Soviet Empire, the Dombas was a major
Speaker 1: economical center. It's where a lot of the mining infrastructure is.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of science and metallurgical studies and
Speaker 1: stuff that took place out there. People in those areas
Speaker 1: lived pretty good lives at the height of the USSR.
Speaker 1: Some people I talked to were or One of the
Speaker 1: guys was a driver that I worked with. He was
Speaker 1: a former marine in the Russian military. He deployed to Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: His memories and experiences of life are completely different than
Speaker 1: someone is living on their pench and struggling. I met
Speaker 1: another person who lived in Donetsk during sort of more
Speaker 1: economically affluent times, and they shared similar things, like all
Speaker 1: they knew was under Ukrainian control, that the area had
Speaker 1: fallen into disrepair and things like this, and they, I
Speaker 1: guess associated that their lives were better when Russia was
Speaker 1: in control of that area. When you started out and
Speaker 1: you had to teach yourself the business of photojournalism, especially
Speaker 1: an a war torn country, what was some of the
Speaker 1: most important things you had to learn upfront, And what
Speaker 1: do you wish you knew? What do you wish you
Speaker 1: do knew then that you know now? What have you
Speaker 1: learned about the job? I wish when I started I
Speaker 1: had better language skills, because for the first couple of
Speaker 1: times I went there, I didn't speak any local languages,
Speaker 1: and when I would come back home, I was taking
Speaker 1: Russian language classes and practicing through the internet and everything too.
Speaker 1: And I wish I'd have started that process sooner, because
Speaker 1: even an extra year, an extra eighteen months of practice
Speaker 1: probably would have been hugely beneficial to my work and skills.
Speaker 1: And I think to one thing I realized is doing
Speaker 1: this sort of work like it does have a toll.
Speaker 1: It takes a toll on you. And for me, it's
Speaker 1: this realization when you witness life and these events, that
Speaker 1: it changes your whole perception of even your reality back home.
Speaker 1: And that's what you can't undo. For me, at least
Speaker 1: filters or affects the filter or the lens through which
Speaker 1: you see your life. And after I went there and
Speaker 1: have worked there, changed a lot of the things that
Speaker 1: I think about life, philosophically, practically, professionally, socially like it.
Speaker 1: It made me a much different person. Now you do
Speaker 1: some of your reporting, or you post some of your
Speaker 1: stuff on social media. Correct, that's correct. I'd used Twitter
Speaker 1: primarily for my work, and then during the early days
Speaker 1: of the invasion I was live streaming updates to people
Speaker 1: on Instagram. How has that changed the way you work?
Speaker 1: I mean, having that immediacy and posting your own stuff.
Speaker 1: Do you find that beneficial? When the invasion started in
Speaker 1: the city I was in. Within seconds or minutes of
Speaker 1: putt into Claring war, they were already dropping bombs very
Speaker 1: close to my house, and I recognized that the war
Speaker 1: had started, and I put my body armor on and
Speaker 1: started live streaming. So from literally the earliest minutes of
Speaker 1: the war, I was live streaming to tens of thousands
Speaker 1: of people on Instagram, and that in and of itself
Speaker 1: is such a fundamental change to the way that people
Speaker 1: consume news and media. Like I didn't need to go
Speaker 1: on television to inform and share news with people. I
Speaker 1: was literally from the palm of my hand, from my iPhone,
Speaker 1: streaming to people all around the world. And at one moment,
Speaker 1: Russian cruise missile flew no more than fifty meters above
Speaker 1: my head and I was live streaming that and showing
Speaker 1: people that in real time, and then that clip went viral,
Speaker 1: as people say, and it was almost like a defining
Speaker 1: moment of the first day of the invasion, like the
Speaker 1: footage of that event. But I went from being someone
Speaker 1: who was very fundamentally antisocial media, like I used it
Speaker 1: as little as possible, two a large percentage of my
Speaker 1: work being attributed to social media. So it's been for
Speaker 1: me a very It's like a contradiction in terms of
Speaker 1: how I want to conduct myself. But social media and
Speaker 1: the new Internet and new media has changed my life
Speaker 1: in a big way. Photojournalist Bryce Wilson. If you'd like
Speaker 1: more insight into the history of the Russia Ukraine crisis,
Speaker 1: check out my interview with New York Times correspondent and
Speaker 1: Putin biographer Stephen Lee Meyer. His book, The News Are
Speaker 1: The Rise and Reign of Vladimir Putin chronicles the ascent
Speaker 1: of the Russian president. Putin only one of the vote,
Speaker 1: and you know, it wasn't a slam dunk. And since
Speaker 1: then Putin made sure that the ways the elections are managed, um,
Speaker 1: there's no uncertainty in the voting. He stripped them of
Speaker 1: the competitive uncertainty that makes them truly democratic, either in
Speaker 1: terms of who can run and then the actual voting itself,
Speaker 1: because transitions in Russia have never gone well. Even during
Speaker 1: the Empire, it was always tumultuous. Here more of my
Speaker 1: conversation with author Stephen Lee Myers that Here's the Thing
Speaker 1: dot org. After the break, Bryce Wilson tells us why
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian forces are some of the best and most
Speaker 1: experienced in the world. I'm Alec Baldwin and you were
Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. Photo journalist Bryce Wilson spent
Speaker 1: the last few months in Ukraine reporting on the Russian invasion.
Speaker 1: His breath taking first person live streams show the world
Speaker 1: what it feels like to be on the front lines.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know if the balance of power is
Speaker 1: affected by the Ukrainian forces preparedness or the Russian forces
Speaker 1: lack thereof. It's definitely both. The Russian military is critically
Speaker 1: underperforming in every facet, logistically, war fighting, the equipment itself, maintenance.
Speaker 1: There are so many facets as to why the Russian
Speaker 1: military performance has been what it is. But the Ukrainian
Speaker 1: armed forces too in the dumbas tens of thousands hundreds
Speaker 1: of thousands of Ukrainian military personnel have done deployment in
Speaker 1: the active war zone. The Armed Forces of Ukraine, in
Speaker 1: my opinion, are probably the most contemporarily experienced military in
Speaker 1: the world. They are trained extensively over the last eight years.
Speaker 1: They're motivated to defend their homes. They're equipped like there
Speaker 1: are so many variables that go into why they've been
Speaker 1: so effective. But I do believe that people overestimated the
Speaker 1: Russian military capabilities and underestimated the Ukrainian military's capabilities. Did
Speaker 1: the citizens of Ukraine. Were they surprised that the Russians
Speaker 1: invader They weren't surprised. I think people were absolutely surprised
Speaker 1: that people I speak to from the east to the west.
Speaker 1: Even leading up to the invasion, people were still convinced
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. It's you know, this is
Speaker 1: just fear mongering. And I think in many ways people
Speaker 1: were conditioned because of the eight years of war. They
Speaker 1: didn't understand how to view the threat objectively or in context.
Speaker 1: Even when the invasion came on the morning there were
Speaker 1: bombs falling in the city and Chromatosk, where I was,
Speaker 1: and I was talking to people who were casually going
Speaker 1: to work. Still they were saying, like, well, I've got
Speaker 1: to go to my job, like I have a duty.
Speaker 1: I won't stop working until like I'm told to. Essentially, So,
Speaker 1: I think up until the very the last moment, people
Speaker 1: were convinced that wasn't going to happen. And even when
Speaker 1: the war did happen, people were still leaving evacuation essentially
Speaker 1: until there were bombs landing at the end of their street. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody took the threat or the risks seriously,
Speaker 1: and I don't know why. As I described the war
Speaker 1: and dumbus, it was a shadow play that was subterfusion trickery.
Speaker 1: The Russian military is there, but they're not saying they're there.
Speaker 1: There's a huge difference between a proxy war like that
Speaker 1: and an active, full scale, multifront invasion of an independent nation.
Speaker 1: But even myself, professionally and personally, I couldn't imagine that
Speaker 1: it was going to happen. Just the scale of something
Speaker 1: like that is so history changing. To send tens of
Speaker 1: thousands of guys rolling across the border with tanks and
Speaker 1: planes and fighter jets, bombers, naval support, just the whole
Speaker 1: thing that just the scale I think boggles the mind.
Speaker 1: But what do you think the Russians want? Do they
Speaker 1: want to just destroy things? Is putting someone who just
Speaker 1: wants to have a military conquest and then leave and
Speaker 1: there's no political aftermath. What's his goal? What does he want? Well, me, personally,
Speaker 1: I just see this as a continuation of Russian hostilities
Speaker 1: towards Ukraine and the concept of Ukrainian independence. This has
Speaker 1: been perpetuated for centuries historically the occupying power in the
Speaker 1: area of Russia. They have forcefully starved millions of people.
Speaker 1: During the whole Lotimore, there were political persecutions against people
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. The Ukrainian language was essentially forbidden. This to me,
Speaker 1: one element of it is just a continuation of this
Speaker 1: anti Ukrainian sentiment in the context of them existing as
Speaker 1: an independent state, because even in recent days there have
Speaker 1: been comments from Russian political leaders where they have essentially said,
Speaker 1: we think it's even offensive that the idea of Ukraine
Speaker 1: even exists, like it's just another part of Russia. So
Speaker 1: I think the military goal in the early days really
Speaker 1: was to capture Kiev, and I think that the Russian
Speaker 1: military and their analysts expected that the Ukrainian military and
Speaker 1: government would just capitulate very quickly and turnover. That hasn't
Speaker 1: happened now and now I think the goal is to
Speaker 1: show through capturing the east and the south of the
Speaker 1: country that it wasn't in vain. Essentially, the Russian military
Speaker 1: could level the whole country, and in some places I
Speaker 1: went to whole villages and cities are just destroyed by
Speaker 1: bombing and people volunteers. I would go there and help
Speaker 1: reconstruct this place. It's a country I love, My friends
Speaker 1: are there. I would be involved. I'm sure tens of
Speaker 1: thousands of people from around the world will go and help. Yes,
Speaker 1: yes they will. Ultimately, this is just an attempt to
Speaker 1: intimidate the concept of Ukraine being an independent nation. And
Speaker 1: whatever their objectives were, if it was to force the
Speaker 1: capitulation of the country, I don't think it will happen.
Speaker 1: Based on the current trend. How do you think this
Speaker 1: is going to end? I'm not sure. My my gut
Speaker 1: feeling around how the conflict would continue or end was
Speaker 1: always that there would be a major escalation of fighting
Speaker 1: in the East because it's territory that Russia had previously
Speaker 1: attempted to take, whether directly or indirectly. I believe that
Speaker 1: the war fighting there could potentially continue for years, as
Speaker 1: it already has. I don't expect that Kiev will be occupied.
Speaker 1: I don't expect that the majority of Ukraine will be occupied,
Speaker 1: but I think areas where the Russian border in Ukrainian
Speaker 1: border exists, there will be ongoing fighting for months potentially,
Speaker 1: And I think really it's a matter of time before
Speaker 1: the sanctions and also economic situation in Russia begins to
Speaker 1: become a bit of a problem. But I don't expect
Speaker 1: that the Ukrainian military or its people will lose their
Speaker 1: will to continue fighting. And when stuff like the mosque
Speaker 1: for being sunk happens, it's a huge morale boost for people.
Speaker 1: So I think it's just a matter of time before
Speaker 1: there are concessions and maybe the peace talks continue. But
Speaker 1: I do suspect that fighting in the East will continue
Speaker 1: for months or years. Do you think that having any
Speaker 1: effect on the Russians. I'm not really sure the machinations
Speaker 1: of it all. I just know on the ground, because
Speaker 1: I have people in my close personal life who have
Speaker 1: relationships with people in Russia, that it's making a difference.
Speaker 1: This is affecting the way people live their lives, and
Speaker 1: I would assume, maybe naively, that when the average persons
Speaker 1: lie starts being affected, that's when they actually get involved
Speaker 1: with sort of pushing for change. Now, of course, one
Speaker 1: of the quickest ways you can engender supporting the American people.
Speaker 1: They talk about war crimes and talk about you know,
Speaker 1: gases and so forth. Either you under are you under
Speaker 1: the impression that the Russians are actually committing war crimes
Speaker 1: over there? Yes, it's my opinion based on things that
Speaker 1: I saw, witnessed read, have had reported to me that
Speaker 1: the Russian military is conducting war crimes in those areas.
Speaker 1: I saw people who were executed while they were bound.
Speaker 1: I've had reports independently verified to me by multiple organizations
Speaker 1: of just agrees your sexual assault, often on some children.
Speaker 1: I've also heard reports that people are being forcibly taken
Speaker 1: and sexually assaulted. And I did read a report that
Speaker 1: someone had been taken from one of the previously occupied
Speaker 1: parts of Kiev and then dumped at the border after
Speaker 1: they've basically been raped by the military. Looting has been
Speaker 1: taken place, and there was a story of a Russian
Speaker 1: soldier stealing a MacBook and he took the armor plate
Speaker 1: out of his vest and put the MacBook in there
Speaker 1: to hide it, and he ended up being shot, and
Speaker 1: the MacBook is actually why he was killed. If he
Speaker 1: was wearing his armor, he probably would have survived the bullet.
Speaker 1: So there's like mass war crimes going on in the
Speaker 1: previously occupied areas, and I hate to think what's happening
Speaker 1: in places where there's not so much media coverage, because
Speaker 1: the mass influx of journalists into those previously occupied areas
Speaker 1: is why they discovered so many atrocities. What's your evaluation
Speaker 1: of Zelenski and what do you see in country? What
Speaker 1: do people there? Does he enjoy the reputation that he
Speaker 1: has here in the United States, and how do people
Speaker 1: feel about him over there. I was at Zelenski's inauguration
Speaker 1: many years ago, and it's very surreal for me to
Speaker 1: have seen this huge narrative of his director quite literally
Speaker 1: a character, because he has an acting background and he's
Speaker 1: a very interesting person. But he, in my opinion, will
Speaker 1: be remembered in the same vein as famous Ukrainian poets,
Speaker 1: people who were invested in the idea of Ukraine's independence,
Speaker 1: like Zelensky, in my opinion, is a hero through his leadership,
Speaker 1: and if Ukraine falls, it means his family are affected
Speaker 1: to it means he's at risk. He was at risk
Speaker 1: of being assassinated many times. He's not running away, he's
Speaker 1: not leaving. He's doing what I think many Ukrainian people
Speaker 1: identify with, and that's sticking up for his country. And
Speaker 1: I think that's why many Ukrainians are very proud of him,
Speaker 1: and it shows that the people stand with him and
Speaker 1: they identify with what he is doing. Are you going
Speaker 1: to go back, Yes, I'm sure that my work in
Speaker 1: Ukraine will continue indefinitely. Like my goal, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be a war journalists specific clear, my work and
Speaker 1: interest is Ukraine. The experiences I've had there and the
Speaker 1: things I've learned have changed me a lot, and I
Speaker 1: really appreciate even when I have opportunities like this to
Speaker 1: share with people, because I think, as you said, this
Speaker 1: war brought a lot of attention to Ukraine, but things
Speaker 1: have been going on there for eight years and twenty
Speaker 1: years before that and thirty years before that, and I
Speaker 1: think it's such a diverse and rich part of the
Speaker 1: world and rich region, and I'm still discovering things and
Speaker 1: I hope I'll be able to continue sharing that with people. Well, listen,
Speaker 1: thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. I'm
Speaker 1: really grateful for the opportunity. Thank you photo journalist Bryce Wilson.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it to yourself,
Speaker 1: Tell a friend and follow here's the thing on the
Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: When we come back, i'd A Sawyer of Human Rights
Speaker 1: Watch discusses the documentation of Russia's human rights abuses in Ukraine.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. When
Speaker 1: the recent atrocities in Bucha were reported, it became clear
Speaker 1: that these events were violations of the international humanitarian law
Speaker 1: and the Geneva Conventions. Ida Sawyer is the director of
Speaker 1: the Crisis and Conflict Division for Human Rights Watch. Sawyer
Speaker 1: spent eight years on the ground in the Democratic Republic
Speaker 1: of Congo covering human rights abuses and supervised teams in
Speaker 1: Syria and Yemen. Ida Sawyer told me about the primary
Speaker 1: objective of her organization. Human Rights Watch where an international
Speaker 1: non governmental human rights organization. So we work in over
Speaker 1: ninety countries around the world, and we document human rights abuses,
Speaker 1: so that's attacks on civilians, laws of war violations during
Speaker 1: armed conflicts, women's rights violations, children's rights, refugees rights issues,
Speaker 1: and we go out we collect the facts. We have
Speaker 1: over five hundred staff working around the world. We speak
Speaker 1: to victims and witnesses and others, try to figure out
Speaker 1: what happened, and then we publish our findings in reports
Speaker 1: and other documents, videos, and then we push for for justice,
Speaker 1: so we push for those most responsible for the abuses
Speaker 1: to be held to account, and then we also push
Speaker 1: for policy changes to to end the abuses that we've documented.
Speaker 1: What do areas of the world that have chronic human
Speaker 1: rights issues? What do those areas of the world. Is
Speaker 1: there something that they have in common? Is it a
Speaker 1: lockdown on the media and dictatorial control of the country.
Speaker 1: Do you find human rights abuses flourish in places like
Speaker 1: that more readily? Yes, definitely. I mean there are they're
Speaker 1: different kinds of chronic human rights abuses in different regions,
Speaker 1: but I think in in countries where you have more
Speaker 1: authoritarian governments, where you don't have freedom of expression, freedom
Speaker 1: of the press, and there's crackdowns on political opposition, leaders,
Speaker 1: journalist activists. That's where we see some of the worst abuses,
Speaker 1: and that can sometimes be related to abuses linked to
Speaker 1: access to healthcare, education, and those sorts of human rights
Speaker 1: as well. For most people, when the conflict between Ukraine
Speaker 1: and Russia, when Putin and Zelinski look like they're going
Speaker 1: to go to another level. You know, many Americans, and
Speaker 1: this is very common in America, they sit there like, yeah,
Speaker 1: what's Russia's beef with the Ukraine? You know, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: what's there? It's all new information for them, and so
Speaker 1: for you, did you know this was coming? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean we were definitely watching it closely. In our Ukraine
Speaker 1: team we have we have a researcher working full time
Speaker 1: on Ukraine and our broader Europe and Central Asia team
Speaker 1: have been working on on the conflict in Ukraine since
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen. And since I've started being focusing so
Speaker 1: closely on this, every Ukrainian you talked to reminds, you know,
Speaker 1: the war didn't start in February. This has been going on,
Speaker 1: So it's definitely something that we were aware of. And
Speaker 1: then by late last year earlier this year, it seemed
Speaker 1: more and more likely that it would really escalate. You're
Speaker 1: hearing some pretty ugly horrible stories about abuses there and
Speaker 1: that Putin and the Russians are war criminals and they're
Speaker 1: doing all kinds of horrible things. Your organization, you have
Speaker 1: people on the ground there in Ukrainei ass m. Yes,
Speaker 1: we don't, and the report to you that they see
Speaker 1: this themselves, they have first hand knowledge of these things themselves. Correct. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: So that's what our teams are doing, and that's really
Speaker 1: trying to understand the context for the violations that are reported. So,
Speaker 1: for example, there's been so much attention on Bucha. So
Speaker 1: that's the area just north of Kiev that the Russian
Speaker 1: forces retreated from and that's allowed Ukrainian authorities to retake control.
Speaker 1: Journalists and others now have access, and we're seeing just
Speaker 1: horrific images of the trail of violence that the Russian
Speaker 1: forces left behind, Bodies strewn along the streets, reports of
Speaker 1: mass graves and and just all of this violence and destruction.
Speaker 1: But what our team there is doing is trying to
Speaker 1: understand Okay, yes many people died, but how did they
Speaker 1: die and what were the circumstances and does this amount
Speaker 1: to war crimes? How did they die? And what were
Speaker 1: the circumstances. So our team is they're documenting now and
Speaker 1: it's it's clear that the Russian forces occupied this area
Speaker 1: from around March fourth until March thirty one, and there
Speaker 1: wasn't one single massacre, but there were a series of
Speaker 1: many different incidents, lots of summary executions as well as
Speaker 1: other cases of targeted killings and indiscriminate attacks on civilians.
Speaker 1: So what we've seen is Russian forces going door to door,
Speaker 1: interrogating the men and then sometimes dragging them out and
Speaker 1: either shooting them on their yard in front of their house,
Speaker 1: or in some cases taking them to a detention center
Speaker 1: that they had set up, and then later their families
Speaker 1: would find that they've been killed, sometimes with a bullet
Speaker 1: to the head, and their bodies lying on the street
Speaker 1: or behind different buildings. We've also seen just indiscriminate attacks,
Speaker 1: sometimes if people who were sheltering in their basements came
Speaker 1: out to look for food, or in one case a
Speaker 1: man went out on his balcony to smoke a cigarette
Speaker 1: and he was shot in the neck. So that's sort
Speaker 1: of just violence at indiscriminate violence against civilians. And then
Speaker 1: when when you say indiscriminate I mean, I appreciate that
Speaker 1: much of it is indiscriminate or also in addition, are
Speaker 1: there some instances where the Russians have sympathizers there or
Speaker 1: they have people who out of fear, are providing them
Speaker 1: with information and saying ten seventeen Main Street, down the
Speaker 1: block there, ten seventeen leon Ede bregion of boulevard, head
Speaker 1: down there, and that guy is part of a cell,
Speaker 1: and that guy is part of the troublemakers. Are a
Speaker 1: lot of people getting ratted out there, So there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people capitulating and helping the Russians to
Speaker 1: identify these people to send shock ways of terror throughout
Speaker 1: the communities that they're in. So what we've seen in Buscha,
Speaker 1: it's not clear that they're targeting any members of particular selves.
Speaker 1: What they say is that they're quote hunting Nazis and
Speaker 1: they're definitely looking for weapons in people's houses and anyone
Speaker 1: with potential connections to the territorial defense forces. But many
Speaker 1: of the cases that we've documented it doesn't appear that
Speaker 1: the individuals who were who were targeted had any links
Speaker 1: to military groups or or otherwise. But we have heard
Speaker 1: cases in other areas that the Russian forces have occupied
Speaker 1: of specific targeted attacks against, for example, journalists and activists
Speaker 1: and others who they might deem to be a particular
Speaker 1: threat to them. So when you go there, what possible
Speaker 1: hope do you have of changing the situation in a
Speaker 1: place with someone who is as unilateral as Putin is?
Speaker 1: I mean Putin is rolling those I mean the Russian
Speaker 1: army is a kick ass army. They got it all.
Speaker 1: They got all the bombs and planes, that's whether that's
Speaker 1: what they spend their money on. They don't feed their people,
Speaker 1: they don't take care of their people. What hope do
Speaker 1: you have of possibly negotiating with Putin? How do you
Speaker 1: feel about that? Do you think there's any hope that
Speaker 1: this is going to end? I think there is hope,
Speaker 1: And I think that what we've seen in other in
Speaker 1: other cases is that it can often take time, but
Speaker 1: that if there is enough pressure and if the documentation
Speaker 1: is there, you can see people being brought to justice.
Speaker 1: And I think something that's really surprised me, and I've
Speaker 1: never experienced this and other conflicts that I've worked on,
Speaker 1: is just how quickly the international community mobilized and the
Speaker 1: International Criminal Board launched an investigation right away. The United
Speaker 1: Nations Human Rights Council launched a commission of inquiry. There's
Speaker 1: been all of this pressure and and Prudent hasn't felt
Speaker 1: to this pressure before, so it might take time, but
Speaker 1: I think that there is a possibility that we could
Speaker 1: see see justice, but we have to keep pushing forward.
Speaker 1: And I think it's important also to remember that the
Speaker 1: types of crimes that we're seeing and we're documenting in
Speaker 1: Ukraine now, they're very similar to crimes that our team
Speaker 1: documented in Syria several years ago committed by Russian forces.
Speaker 1: Some of these same commanders were involved, and they got
Speaker 1: away with it, and they were never held to account,
Speaker 1: and that impunity has helped facilitate has allowed to continue
Speaker 1: with these same sorts of abuses that we're seeing now
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. So I really hope, you know, with all
Speaker 1: of this mobilization, that we're seeing, this pressure, these investigations
Speaker 1: that have started, that will actually finally see some justice
Speaker 1: this time. Do you have any hope that the Russians
Speaker 1: will get kicked out of the Security Council. I think
Speaker 1: we're a long way from that, but they were just
Speaker 1: voted out of the Human Rights Council so I think
Speaker 1: that sends an initial important signal that they really have
Speaker 1: no place They're given this the horrific crimes that are
Speaker 1: being committed now, at the very least in terms of appearances.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of faith in the United Nations
Speaker 1: and I hope that they do kick them out of
Speaker 1: the Security Council. As you said, it's a it's a
Speaker 1: long shot, but I think that we need to We
Speaker 1: need to have people come to the table who recognize
Speaker 1: that war itself is obsolete. That precisely what the Russians
Speaker 1: are doing now is obsolete. You can't go in there
Speaker 1: and completely level a whole country, rely on Western count
Speaker 1: used to come in and clean up the mess. And
Speaker 1: I feel like someone's got to be able to negotiate
Speaker 1: with them and start a global introduction of an idea
Speaker 1: that war itself as a war crime. Forget about there's
Speaker 1: things you can't do during war. You can't do war,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, how do we make war itself obsolete? Now? Um,
Speaker 1: do you think that sanctions work? I think they can
Speaker 1: work here. I think it's also a question of are
Speaker 1: they being implemented? So are you are we actually looking
Speaker 1: for all of the resources that these individuals have and
Speaker 1: making sure they're being seized. There's a question of network sanctions,
Speaker 1: so not just the individuals, but those in the companies
Speaker 1: that are connected to them but hidden a bit, making
Speaker 1: sure they're targeted as well. There's this muscle you developed
Speaker 1: very keenly to look at what people do to abuse
Speaker 1: political power. Has it effective when you come home as
Speaker 1: Human Rights Watch ever brought a case against an American government, Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1: So we have our US program is actually our biggest
Speaker 1: country program. So we do a lot of work here
Speaker 1: in the US. And so I was in New York
Speaker 1: before moving back to d C and worked in on
Speaker 1: a lot of the police violence and abuse during the
Speaker 1: George Floyd protests, and we did we did a big
Speaker 1: project on the crackdown in mod Haven and the South
Speaker 1: Bronx and just documented how the police, the NYPD kettled
Speaker 1: protesters there and then just used complete unprovoked violence, beating up,
Speaker 1: cracking down on these protesters um and really worked with
Speaker 1: other groups to push for push for some accountability. We
Speaker 1: also did work around voting rights during the last elections,
Speaker 1: and then we also look at the conduct of US
Speaker 1: forces internationally and strikes on civilian target for example, and
Speaker 1: pushing for for accountability, reparations and that type of thing.
Speaker 1: So we we definitely do work on the US And yes,
Speaker 1: definitely big focus. You've dedicated your life to this incredibly
Speaker 1: difficult work. You know, it's it's ugly. You learn the
Speaker 1: realities of a lot of horrible things that have been
Speaker 1: happening to people. What keeps you wanting to do this work? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it is we do hear a
Speaker 1: lot of just really horrible stories about the worst of humanity,
Speaker 1: but we also I feel like people want their story
Speaker 1: to be told. They want people to know what they
Speaker 1: what they experienced, what they suffered. So we do play
Speaker 1: an important role in giving giving their stories a voice.
Speaker 1: And then it's also when we do have successes, so
Speaker 1: when we finally see justice, um and and like it's
Speaker 1: it's seeing that that we can make make a difference.
Speaker 1: What is victory for Human Rights Watch? What is justice? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I think one of one of the big victories
Speaker 1: we had was with Bosco and Tegonda. So he was
Speaker 1: a warlord from an armed group backed by neighboring Rwanda,
Speaker 1: and we had documented his crimes for over a decade.
Speaker 1: Mass large scale massacres, mass rapes, sexual violence, he himself
Speaker 1: had raped women who were held under under their control,
Speaker 1: recruitment of children, just a lidany of abuses that we documented,
Speaker 1: and eventually the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant
Speaker 1: for him and he was transferred to the Hague and
Speaker 1: put on trial and later convicted for war crimes and
Speaker 1: crimes against humanity. So I think he is in prison, Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the Hague. He's in prison in the Netherlands, yes,
Speaker 1: But what sentence was he given? So thirty years? He
Speaker 1: was sentenced to thirty years for war crimes or human
Speaker 1: rights abuses in the Hague. This guy, Wow, that's that's
Speaker 1: that's amazing. To get a guy like that, who's real,
Speaker 1: who a real kingpin, a guy who was a lot
Speaker 1: of murder and death and blood on his hands and
Speaker 1: has destroyed the lives of countless people. To see that
Speaker 1: guy get locked up in prisoner must have been very,
Speaker 1: very satisfying. Well, as you're another spot in the world,
Speaker 1: is Ida Sawyer headed somewhere? You don't have to say,
Speaker 1: But do you have another location you want to go
Speaker 1: to next? Well? I am probably heading to Ukraine next week.
Speaker 1: So keeping the focus there for yeah, well listen. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us, and if you do
Speaker 1: head over there, please be careful. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: My thanks to Ida Sawyer and Bryce Wilson. This episode
Speaker 1: was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice, and Maureen Hoban.
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the
Speaker 1: thing is brought to you buy iHeart Radio