1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. On the February two thousand two, 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: while the world watched on in horror and disbelief, Russian 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: forces invaded the independent nation of Ukraine. While Ukrainian forces 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: continue to fight for democracy, their right to sovereignty, and 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: the soul of their country. My guests today are working 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: to ensure their stories are told. Ida Sawyer is the 8 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: director of the Crisis and Conflict Division at Human Rights Watch. 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: The organization is currently on the ground documenting alleged war 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: crimes in Ukraine. Sawyer shared with us some of their 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: devastating findings and what the organization plans to do with 12 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: these reports. But first I'm talking with Australian photojournalist Bryce Wilson. 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: Wilson has documented the humanitarian crisis in Ukraine since two 14 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: thousand fifteen. He was the first Australian journalist to embed 15 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: with the Ukrainian Special Forces covering the conflict in the 16 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: don Bass region. His work has been featured on ABC Australia, 17 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: The Daily Mail and Sky News, and despite his resistance 18 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: to social media, Wilson's Instagram and Twitter feed provided a 19 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: gripping account of the front lines of the Russian invasion. 20 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: That's crazy. I can't believe that Russia has declared war 21 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: in Ukraine. As soon as the declaration, Oh, that's a missile. 22 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: That's a missile. That's a missile. Bryce Wilson joined me 23 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: at five am Australian time, after returning home for a 24 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: well deserved break from reporting in Ukraine. I wanted to 25 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: know how he found his way to conflict photo journalism. 26 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: I found photography through a hobby, so initially I did 27 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: do quite general work like that, like did some food photography, 28 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: did photographs of my friends, made portraits. The war in 29 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: Ukraine was in Australian television a lot because Australians were 30 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: killed when Flight MH seventeen was shut down and the 31 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: news coverage sort of stopped around the war. And then 32 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: I realized that with the skills and the equipment that 33 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: I had, I could probably do my own photojournalism. And 34 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: that's when I went to Ukraine the first time. In 35 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: Who Sent You There? I was freelancing, so I had 36 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: just lost a job and I used my redundancy payout 37 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: to fund my work in Ukraine that first time, and 38 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: maybe naively. I contacted the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense and 39 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: they told me that even freelance media could embed with 40 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: the military so long as I leaded some forms and 41 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: had body armor and everything. So yeah, in about I 42 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: went to Ukraine for the first time with my gear 43 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: and the cash REMI redundancy pay out and just figured 44 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: out how to do journalism. And ever since then, that 45 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: was kind of the catalyst for why I returned, because 46 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: the relationships that I had made with people there from 47 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: my first experiences in many ways stuck with me and 48 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: they're still the same people. I'm still in touch with 49 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: a lot of the people I met during that in 50 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: bed and they've all helped me with my work as 51 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: it has continued. So I'm assuming that that you had 52 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: no formal training in terms of photojournalism or journalism from 53 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: my radio and it is he's shaking his head no, 54 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: with a sly smile in his face. So no formal 55 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: training in photojournalism, the answer is no, correct. Yeah, even 56 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: education wise, my background was in writing, and professionally I 57 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: was working in different creative services agencies. Like I had 58 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: all these fundamental little skills that were a bigger part 59 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: of doing multimedia production work, but no formal training in 60 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: journalism or anything related to that. So the embedded was 61 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: your first real assignment of something that's would be a 62 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: precursor of the work you've been doing, and you're there, 63 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: what was going on in that you were chronicling. So 64 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: the assignment that I had sent myself on that was 65 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: my first practical experience doing journalism, and it was very 66 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: much a thing of lean in the field because the 67 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: place where I was sent was a small town very 68 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: close to the Donetsk airport, which is just on the 69 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: fringe of one of the occupied capital cities in the east, 70 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: where there is now a major escalation seemingly imminent. I 71 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: just say that because after the Russian military's goals Kiev 72 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: region and throughout Ukraine have evolved a little bit. They're 73 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: now focusing on the eastern part of Ukraine and they're 74 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: talking about that being the primary objective. So it seems 75 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: to me very likely that there will be a major 76 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: escalation of the war in that area, specifically, not just 77 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: in Kiev and western Ukraine. And so back then a 78 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 1: war has been going on in Ukraine for eight years. 79 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: The Russian military annexed Crimea and then was directly involved 80 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: in in essentially fomenting a separatist uprising in some parts 81 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: of the country. Small groups of people that wanted to 82 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: break away from Ukraine, very small groups of people, received 83 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: military support, funding as well as espionage level stuff from 84 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: the Russian military and government, and they broke off two 85 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: parts of eastern Ukraine called the Donetsk People's Republic and 86 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: the Luhansk People's Republic. Those territories actually occupied a lot 87 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: of eastern Ukraine, and then from the Ukrainian military and 88 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: a lot of those were volunteers, pushed the so called 89 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: People's Republic's military forces very close to the border with Russia, 90 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: and then the Russian military launched an incursion, sent their 91 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: military over the border from Russia into Ukraine to fight 92 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian military. Since then, a number of somewhat effective 93 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: ceasefires have been implemented called the Mintsk Agreements, and those 94 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: Minsk agreements largely froze the front line and conflict in 95 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: place where it was before this current invasion started. So 96 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: when I went there in for the first time, there 97 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: were still significant fighting every day. So the Russia said 98 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: them doing little out of town tryouts. If you would 99 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: have been doing a lot of little rehearsals for this 100 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: big invasion for quite a while now, correct. Yeah, it's 101 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: a really great way to put it. And I think 102 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: the thing that separates now versus previously the Russian military, 103 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: for example, when they shot down Flight MH seventeen, there 104 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: was a whole bunch of shadow play and trickery around. 105 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't us, it was people that had 106 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: our hardware. We're not actually in the dom bus. It's 107 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: people that found our tanks. There was this joke that 108 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: they were miners and they found all this equipment stored underground. 109 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: There was all this proof that heavily implicated the Russian 110 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: military as having been in the east of Ukraine, but 111 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: they wouldn't really play into the uncertainty of it all. 112 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: And it was almost a proxy war where the Russian 113 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: military was directly involved in on the ground, but they 114 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: hid behind the idea that it was separatists doing this, 115 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: the rebels. Yes, and they blamed it on separatists and 116 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: your rebels in Dulansk and Donetsk, correct, because you were 117 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: there for both of those, correct incursions, and and so, 118 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: but there were no direct Soviet troops on the ground, 119 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: tanks and weaponry or were there there were so Russian 120 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: military hardware and soldiers were present at some of the 121 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: largest battles in the bus in the early days of 122 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: the war, and because the Ukrainian military counter offensive to 123 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: recapture the occupied territories was so effective, the so called 124 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: separatist forces were pushed very close to the Russian border, 125 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: and that's when the Russian military started launching artillery strikes 126 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: from across the Russian border into Ukraine. They sent their 127 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: military forces in to fight the Ukrainian military actively, and 128 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: the battles where the Russian military participated then was some 129 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: of the most bloody in the history of the war 130 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: at that point. And in one battle, for example, called 131 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: illa Weis, a large percentage of the Ukrainian armed forces 132 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: were encircled and during a breakout humanitarian corridor which was 133 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: offered by the Russian military, a large convoy of Ukrainian 134 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: military personnel left and then the Russian military bombarded that 135 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: convoy with artillery and indirect fire and it killed potentially 136 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: up to a thousand people. During these don Bass battles 137 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: that you covered in six seven years ago were atrocities 138 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: playing then when you hear reports about what's going on 139 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: in Ukraine now? Does it match what you saw years ago? 140 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: I mean as a matter of what level, because I 141 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: saw atrocious things I saw still it's very surreal to 142 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: me because the scenes and events I'm seeing now did 143 00:09:53,840 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: take place seven years ago. I saw destroyed neighborhoods, maimed bodies, 144 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: missing legs, civilians, homes are destroyed, civilians killed by the war. 145 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: I saw mass graves, not on the same scale, but 146 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 1: graves where the local separatist forces in that area had 147 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: just dumped people. Civilians from the nearby area dumped their 148 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: own dead personnel when they left. A lot of the 149 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: events that we're seeing now did take place then, It's 150 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: just the scale now, I think, because of that same 151 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: reason that the Russian forces were not their quote unquote, 152 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: there was a lot more subterfuge, whereas now that it's 153 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: all out in the open and not in the shadows, 154 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: everything has been ramped up and scaled up significantly. So therefore, 155 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm assuming you you weren't surprised at all when things 156 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: took the turn they took this year. It was heading 157 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: in that direction, correct. I felt like in the days 158 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: before the invasion was announced, I was already out in 159 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: the don Bus reporting on infrastructure damage in don Bus, 160 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: which had been a big focus of my word, And 161 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: I was given information from contacts within the security services 162 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: setting very clear dates when they expected that the invasion 163 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: would take place, and I will say that they were 164 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: very accurate. The dates that they provided turned out to 165 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: be correct retroactively, and the invasion was actually moved by 166 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: the Russian military and government, and the dates I was 167 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: given are initially were spot on accurate. And then I 168 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: have friends that were serving in the military and they 169 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: were telling me to We're being told we can't leave 170 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: the base. We're being told that we should prepare that 171 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: the invasion is likely to start tomorrow. So a couple 172 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: of days out I knew pretty definitively that it was happening. 173 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: But weeks beforehand, I was there to report on the 174 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: escalation that was already taken place, because in the days 175 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: and weeks leading up to the invasion, there was fighting 176 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: in the Dumbus like I'd never experienced before, the severity 177 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: of artillery, the damage to homes, cease, five violations, civilians 178 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: being killed, like it all objectively increased exponentially in the 179 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: like two weeks before the war started. When you show 180 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: up there to don Buss again a few years later, 181 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: that you know the lay of the land obviously, you 182 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: know the territory, you know where to go to be 183 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: safe for their place, like where does Bryce Wilson sleep? 184 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: Who's paying the bill? When you go on these freelance projects, 185 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: you have to fund this yourself. We did somebody pay 186 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: for it. I had some offers to help with funding, 187 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: but I didn't align with the organization's ethically. They were 188 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: sort of towing almost this pro Russian media viewpoint, which 189 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: was very concerning for me. But for all intents and purposes, 190 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: all of my work since I started has been funded 191 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: by myself. This was the first time that I've had 192 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: any moderate commercial success for my work, But making money 193 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: from doing it had never been a big priority to me. 194 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: Like again, maybe naively, I thought there was like a 195 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: paragon sort of value in journalism and the value of 196 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: it to society, and that was the main motivator for me. 197 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: So if I'm doing an assignment in somewhere like don Bus, 198 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: I would stay in a city or a town very 199 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: close to the front line, and then each day we 200 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: would drive out to the areas where we needed to 201 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: go to do reporting. But even thirty or forty kilometers 202 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: away from the front line, life is relatively normal. In 203 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: the evenings, I would go to a bar with some 204 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: of my colleagues and we would eat a pizza for 205 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: dinner and maybe have a beer or something like this. 206 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: Like it's very surreal because in Key of for example, 207 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: before the current invasion, people would live very normally and 208 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: you could almost fault them for that, like forgetting there 209 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: was a war seven hundred kilometers away. But people even 210 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: thirty kilometers away from the front line would forget there 211 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: was a war at times, and that was very strange. 212 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: Why do you think that is a sense something peculiar 213 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: to them? I mean, even in the United States, someone 214 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: said to me that nine eleven will eventually take its 215 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: place alongside Pearl Harbor. It will become a very distant 216 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: memory and Americans will forget this almost inconceivable event that 217 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: happened here in New York and two one. But there's 218 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: nothing peculiar to the Ukrainian nature that makes them want 219 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: to carry on with life as they live it. Where 220 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: is there some where is there something unique about them 221 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: you've found? I mean, there are lots of things that 222 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: are unique about Ukrainian people. One example I can give 223 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: I was working in a village which had just been 224 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: struck by artillery. A person's home was completely destroyed, their 225 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: neighbors homes were destroyed. They were quite literally pulling the 226 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: bodies of their neighbors out of homes around them. And 227 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: I with my colleagues we hadn't eaten that day, and 228 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: they just made us food in the destroyed ruins of 229 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: their homes while they themselves were struggling. I've never experienced 230 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: hospitality on that level before, and I don't know if 231 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: anyone would help people in that instance, but we were 232 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: just strange people, media personalities. There was me and two 233 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: people who just came to them and they fed us 234 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: out of the kindness of their own hearts. And I 235 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: think that, to me was probably one of the most 236 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: unique experiences I had during my assignment. I don't know 237 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: how people live so close to the front line and 238 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: kind of forget about the war, but I think it 239 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: is because primarily the war had been going on for 240 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: eight years at this point. It's part of the everyday 241 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: fabric of life in some areas. Almost esthetically too, there's 242 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: a whole culture around the conflict in Eastern Ukraine lives 243 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: people go from checkpoints from one side of the contact 244 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: line to the other every day. Like there's whole micro 245 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: society and culture and experience of life solely because of 246 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: the war that had been going on for eight years 247 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: at that point. I also think that where you have 248 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: extended conflicts like Vietnam and so forth, that people decide, 249 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: this is my opinion, they make a decision to carry 250 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: on with life as they know it because you know 251 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: it could be over tomorrow. You know, you can live 252 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: in fear, or you can try to normalize things to 253 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: the best of your ability and try to you know, 254 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: raise your children and grow your food or obviously I'm 255 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: talking about Southeast Asia now. But one thing I'm wondering, 256 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: what would you say is your understanding of what percentage 257 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: what fraction is it a significant fraction of people who 258 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: want to reunify with Russia. What percentage of the Ukrainian 259 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: people are Russian sympathizers from your experience. In my experience, 260 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: even in the East, I met very few people that 261 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: truly wanted that unification. There's a lot of information around 262 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: why the separatist republics exist, What are their motivators, what 263 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: is the true support numbers? And to the best of 264 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: my knowledge, even earlier in the war, like in the 265 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: days before the separatists sort of uprisings happened, it was 266 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: single percentage figures and low single percentage figures. And as 267 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: time has gone on the eastern areas there's been a 268 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: mass exodus of people into government controlled territories. And now 269 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: I believe that a significant percentage of people that have 270 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: received Russian passports and there's a whole I guess, absorption 271 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: of that region into Russia effectively. But in my experience 272 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: from west to east of the country, north to south, 273 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: like pre and during the war, I never met anybody 274 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: that truly supported this sentiment that like we in Ukraine 275 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: want to be a part of Russia. It's not to 276 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: say that they don't exist. I talked with people that 277 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: had more pro Russian ideologies, but I never met someone 278 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: our right, Is it just about tradition? What is it 279 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: about Russia let alone? What is it about Putin that 280 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: they want to align themselves with that government in that country? 281 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: I think yes. So many people in those areas might 282 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: have had memories of when the Soviet Union was a 283 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: bigger part of their lives and economically, especially in the 284 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: dom bast During the height of the USSR and the 285 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: history of the Soviet Empire, the Dombas was a major 286 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: economical center. It's where a lot of the mining infrastructure is. 287 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: There was a lot of science and metallurgical studies and 288 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: stuff that took place out there. People in those areas 289 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: lived pretty good lives at the height of the USSR. 290 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: Some people I talked to were or One of the 291 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: guys was a driver that I worked with. He was 292 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: a former marine in the Russian military. He deployed to Afghanistan. 293 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: His memories and experiences of life are completely different than 294 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: someone is living on their pench and struggling. I met 295 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: another person who lived in Donetsk during sort of more 296 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: economically affluent times, and they shared similar things, like all 297 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: they knew was under Ukrainian control, that the area had 298 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: fallen into disrepair and things like this, and they, I 299 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: guess associated that their lives were better when Russia was 300 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: in control of that area. When you started out and 301 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: you had to teach yourself the business of photojournalism, especially 302 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: an a war torn country, what was some of the 303 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: most important things you had to learn upfront, And what 304 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: do you wish you knew? What do you wish you 305 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: do knew then that you know now? What have you 306 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: learned about the job? I wish when I started I 307 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: had better language skills, because for the first couple of 308 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: times I went there, I didn't speak any local languages, 309 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: and when I would come back home, I was taking 310 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: Russian language classes and practicing through the internet and everything too. 311 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: And I wish I'd have started that process sooner, because 312 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: even an extra year, an extra eighteen months of practice 313 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: probably would have been hugely beneficial to my work and skills. 314 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: And I think to one thing I realized is doing 315 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: this sort of work like it does have a toll. 316 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: It takes a toll on you. And for me, it's 317 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: this realization when you witness life and these events, that 318 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: it changes your whole perception of even your reality back home. 319 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: And that's what you can't undo. For me, at least 320 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: filters or affects the filter or the lens through which 321 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: you see your life. And after I went there and 322 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: have worked there, changed a lot of the things that 323 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: I think about life, philosophically, practically, professionally, socially like it. 324 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: It made me a much different person. Now you do 325 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: some of your reporting, or you post some of your 326 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: stuff on social media. Correct, that's correct. I'd used Twitter 327 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: primarily for my work, and then during the early days 328 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: of the invasion I was live streaming updates to people 329 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: on Instagram. How has that changed the way you work? 330 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: I mean, having that immediacy and posting your own stuff. 331 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: Do you find that beneficial? When the invasion started in 332 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: the city I was in. Within seconds or minutes of 333 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: putt into Claring war, they were already dropping bombs very 334 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: close to my house, and I recognized that the war 335 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: had started, and I put my body armor on and 336 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: started live streaming. So from literally the earliest minutes of 337 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: the war, I was live streaming to tens of thousands 338 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: of people on Instagram, and that in and of itself 339 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: is such a fundamental change to the way that people 340 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: consume news and media. Like I didn't need to go 341 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: on television to inform and share news with people. I 342 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: was literally from the palm of my hand, from my iPhone, 343 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 1: streaming to people all around the world. And at one moment, 344 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: Russian cruise missile flew no more than fifty meters above 345 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: my head and I was live streaming that and showing 346 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: people that in real time, and then that clip went viral, 347 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: as people say, and it was almost like a defining 348 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: moment of the first day of the invasion, like the 349 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: footage of that event. But I went from being someone 350 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: who was very fundamentally antisocial media, like I used it 351 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: as little as possible, two a large percentage of my 352 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: work being attributed to social media. So it's been for 353 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: me a very It's like a contradiction in terms of 354 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: how I want to conduct myself. But social media and 355 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: the new Internet and new media has changed my life 356 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: in a big way. Photojournalist Bryce Wilson. If you'd like 357 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: more insight into the history of the Russia Ukraine crisis, 358 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: check out my interview with New York Times correspondent and 359 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: Putin biographer Stephen Lee Meyer. His book, The News Are 360 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: The Rise and Reign of Vladimir Putin chronicles the ascent 361 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: of the Russian president. Putin only one of the vote, 362 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: and you know, it wasn't a slam dunk. And since 363 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: then Putin made sure that the ways the elections are managed, um, 364 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: there's no uncertainty in the voting. He stripped them of 365 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: the competitive uncertainty that makes them truly democratic, either in 366 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: terms of who can run and then the actual voting itself, 367 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: because transitions in Russia have never gone well. Even during 368 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: the Empire, it was always tumultuous. Here more of my 369 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: conversation with author Stephen Lee Myers that Here's the Thing 370 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: dot org. After the break, Bryce Wilson tells us why 371 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian forces are some of the best and most 372 00:23:47,880 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: experienced in the world. I'm Alec Baldwin and you were 373 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. Photo journalist Bryce Wilson spent 374 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: the last few months in Ukraine reporting on the Russian invasion. 375 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: His breath taking first person live streams show the world 376 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: what it feels like to be on the front lines. 377 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to know if the balance of power is 378 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: affected by the Ukrainian forces preparedness or the Russian forces 379 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: lack thereof. It's definitely both. The Russian military is critically 380 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: underperforming in every facet, logistically, war fighting, the equipment itself, maintenance. 381 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: There are so many facets as to why the Russian 382 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: military performance has been what it is. But the Ukrainian 383 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 1: armed forces too in the dumbas tens of thousands hundreds 384 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: of thousands of Ukrainian military personnel have done deployment in 385 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: the active war zone. The Armed Forces of Ukraine, in 386 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: my opinion, are probably the most contemporarily experienced military in 387 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: the world. They are trained extensively over the last eight years. 388 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: They're motivated to defend their homes. They're equipped like there 389 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: are so many variables that go into why they've been 390 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: so effective. But I do believe that people overestimated the 391 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: Russian military capabilities and underestimated the Ukrainian military's capabilities. Did 392 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: the citizens of Ukraine. Were they surprised that the Russians 393 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: invader They weren't surprised. I think people were absolutely surprised 394 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: that people I speak to from the east to the west. 395 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: Even leading up to the invasion, people were still convinced 396 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. It's you know, this is 397 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: just fear mongering. And I think in many ways people 398 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: were conditioned because of the eight years of war. They 399 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: didn't understand how to view the threat objectively or in context. 400 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: Even when the invasion came on the morning there were 401 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: bombs falling in the city and Chromatosk, where I was, 402 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: and I was talking to people who were casually going 403 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: to work. Still they were saying, like, well, I've got 404 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: to go to my job, like I have a duty. 405 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: I won't stop working until like I'm told to. Essentially, So, 406 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: I think up until the very the last moment, people 407 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: were convinced that wasn't going to happen. And even when 408 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: the war did happen, people were still leaving evacuation essentially 409 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: until there were bombs landing at the end of their street. Like, 410 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody took the threat or the risks seriously, 411 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: and I don't know why. As I described the war 412 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: and dumbus, it was a shadow play that was subterfusion trickery. 413 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: The Russian military is there, but they're not saying they're there. 414 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: There's a huge difference between a proxy war like that 415 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: and an active, full scale, multifront invasion of an independent nation. 416 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: But even myself, professionally and personally, I couldn't imagine that 417 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: it was going to happen. Just the scale of something 418 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: like that is so history changing. To send tens of 419 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: thousands of guys rolling across the border with tanks and 420 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: planes and fighter jets, bombers, naval support, just the whole 421 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: thing that just the scale I think boggles the mind. 422 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: But what do you think the Russians want? Do they 423 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: want to just destroy things? Is putting someone who just 424 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: wants to have a military conquest and then leave and 425 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: there's no political aftermath. What's his goal? What does he want? Well, me, personally, 426 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: I just see this as a continuation of Russian hostilities 427 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: towards Ukraine and the concept of Ukrainian independence. This has 428 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: been perpetuated for centuries historically the occupying power in the 429 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: area of Russia. They have forcefully starved millions of people. 430 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: During the whole Lotimore, there were political persecutions against people 431 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: in Ukraine. The Ukrainian language was essentially forbidden. This to me, 432 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: one element of it is just a continuation of this 433 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: anti Ukrainian sentiment in the context of them existing as 434 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: an independent state, because even in recent days there have 435 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: been comments from Russian political leaders where they have essentially said, 436 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: we think it's even offensive that the idea of Ukraine 437 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: even exists, like it's just another part of Russia. So 438 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: I think the military goal in the early days really 439 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: was to capture Kiev, and I think that the Russian 440 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: military and their analysts expected that the Ukrainian military and 441 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: government would just capitulate very quickly and turnover. That hasn't 442 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: happened now and now I think the goal is to 443 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: show through capturing the east and the south of the 444 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: country that it wasn't in vain. Essentially, the Russian military 445 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: could level the whole country, and in some places I 446 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: went to whole villages and cities are just destroyed by 447 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: bombing and people volunteers. I would go there and help 448 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: reconstruct this place. It's a country I love, My friends 449 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: are there. I would be involved. I'm sure tens of 450 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: thousands of people from around the world will go and help. Yes, 451 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: yes they will. Ultimately, this is just an attempt to 452 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: intimidate the concept of Ukraine being an independent nation. And 453 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: whatever their objectives were, if it was to force the 454 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: capitulation of the country, I don't think it will happen. 455 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: Based on the current trend. How do you think this 456 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: is going to end? I'm not sure. My my gut 457 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: feeling around how the conflict would continue or end was 458 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: always that there would be a major escalation of fighting 459 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: in the East because it's territory that Russia had previously 460 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: attempted to take, whether directly or indirectly. I believe that 461 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: the war fighting there could potentially continue for years, as 462 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: it already has. I don't expect that Kiev will be occupied. 463 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: I don't expect that the majority of Ukraine will be occupied, 464 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: but I think areas where the Russian border in Ukrainian 465 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: border exists, there will be ongoing fighting for months potentially, 466 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: And I think really it's a matter of time before 467 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: the sanctions and also economic situation in Russia begins to 468 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: become a bit of a problem. But I don't expect 469 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: that the Ukrainian military or its people will lose their 470 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: will to continue fighting. And when stuff like the mosque 471 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: for being sunk happens, it's a huge morale boost for people. 472 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: So I think it's just a matter of time before 473 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: there are concessions and maybe the peace talks continue. But 474 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: I do suspect that fighting in the East will continue 475 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: for months or years. Do you think that having any 476 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: effect on the Russians. I'm not really sure the machinations 477 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: of it all. I just know on the ground, because 478 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: I have people in my close personal life who have 479 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: relationships with people in Russia, that it's making a difference. 480 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: This is affecting the way people live their lives, and 481 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: I would assume, maybe naively, that when the average persons 482 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: lie starts being affected, that's when they actually get involved 483 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: with sort of pushing for change. Now, of course, one 484 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: of the quickest ways you can engender supporting the American people. 485 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: They talk about war crimes and talk about you know, 486 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: gases and so forth. Either you under are you under 487 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: the impression that the Russians are actually committing war crimes 488 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: over there? Yes, it's my opinion based on things that 489 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: I saw, witnessed read, have had reported to me that 490 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: the Russian military is conducting war crimes in those areas. 491 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: I saw people who were executed while they were bound. 492 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: I've had reports independently verified to me by multiple organizations 493 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: of just agrees your sexual assault, often on some children. 494 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: I've also heard reports that people are being forcibly taken 495 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: and sexually assaulted. And I did read a report that 496 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: someone had been taken from one of the previously occupied 497 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: parts of Kiev and then dumped at the border after 498 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: they've basically been raped by the military. Looting has been 499 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: taken place, and there was a story of a Russian 500 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: soldier stealing a MacBook and he took the armor plate 501 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: out of his vest and put the MacBook in there 502 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: to hide it, and he ended up being shot, and 503 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: the MacBook is actually why he was killed. If he 504 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,479 Speaker 1: was wearing his armor, he probably would have survived the bullet. 505 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: So there's like mass war crimes going on in the 506 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: previously occupied areas, and I hate to think what's happening 507 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: in places where there's not so much media coverage, because 508 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: the mass influx of journalists into those previously occupied areas 509 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: is why they discovered so many atrocities. What's your evaluation 510 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: of Zelenski and what do you see in country? What 511 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: do people there? Does he enjoy the reputation that he 512 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: has here in the United States, and how do people 513 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: feel about him over there. I was at Zelenski's inauguration 514 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: many years ago, and it's very surreal for me to 515 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: have seen this huge narrative of his director quite literally 516 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: a character, because he has an acting background and he's 517 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: a very interesting person. But he, in my opinion, will 518 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: be remembered in the same vein as famous Ukrainian poets, 519 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: people who were invested in the idea of Ukraine's independence, 520 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: like Zelensky, in my opinion, is a hero through his leadership, 521 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: and if Ukraine falls, it means his family are affected 522 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: to it means he's at risk. He was at risk 523 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: of being assassinated many times. He's not running away, he's 524 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: not leaving. He's doing what I think many Ukrainian people 525 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: identify with, and that's sticking up for his country. And 526 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: I think that's why many Ukrainians are very proud of him, 527 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: and it shows that the people stand with him and 528 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: they identify with what he is doing. Are you going 529 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: to go back, Yes, I'm sure that my work in 530 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: Ukraine will continue indefinitely. Like my goal, I don't want 531 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: to be a war journalists specific clear, my work and 532 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: interest is Ukraine. The experiences I've had there and the 533 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: things I've learned have changed me a lot, and I 534 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: really appreciate even when I have opportunities like this to 535 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: share with people, because I think, as you said, this 536 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: war brought a lot of attention to Ukraine, but things 537 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: have been going on there for eight years and twenty 538 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: years before that and thirty years before that, and I 539 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: think it's such a diverse and rich part of the 540 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: world and rich region, and I'm still discovering things and 541 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 1: I hope I'll be able to continue sharing that with people. Well, listen, 542 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. I'm 543 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: really grateful for the opportunity. Thank you photo journalist Bryce Wilson. 544 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it to yourself, 545 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: Tell a friend and follow here's the thing on the 546 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 547 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: When we come back, i'd A Sawyer of Human Rights 548 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: Watch discusses the documentation of Russia's human rights abuses in Ukraine. 549 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. When 550 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: the recent atrocities in Bucha were reported, it became clear 551 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 1: that these events were violations of the international humanitarian law 552 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: and the Geneva Conventions. Ida Sawyer is the director of 553 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: the Crisis and Conflict Division for Human Rights Watch. Sawyer 554 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: spent eight years on the ground in the Democratic Republic 555 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: of Congo covering human rights abuses and supervised teams in 556 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: Syria and Yemen. Ida Sawyer told me about the primary 557 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: objective of her organization. Human Rights Watch where an international 558 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: non governmental human rights organization. So we work in over 559 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: ninety countries around the world, and we document human rights abuses, 560 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: so that's attacks on civilians, laws of war violations during 561 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: armed conflicts, women's rights violations, children's rights, refugees rights issues, 562 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: and we go out we collect the facts. We have 563 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: over five hundred staff working around the world. We speak 564 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: to victims and witnesses and others, try to figure out 565 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: what happened, and then we publish our findings in reports 566 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: and other documents, videos, and then we push for for justice, 567 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: so we push for those most responsible for the abuses 568 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: to be held to account, and then we also push 569 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: for policy changes to to end the abuses that we've documented. 570 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: What do areas of the world that have chronic human 571 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: rights issues? What do those areas of the world. Is 572 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: there something that they have in common? Is it a 573 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,240 Speaker 1: lockdown on the media and dictatorial control of the country. 574 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: Do you find human rights abuses flourish in places like 575 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 1: that more readily? Yes, definitely. I mean there are they're 576 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: different kinds of chronic human rights abuses in different regions, 577 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: but I think in in countries where you have more 578 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: authoritarian governments, where you don't have freedom of expression, freedom 579 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 1: of the press, and there's crackdowns on political opposition, leaders, 580 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: journalist activists. That's where we see some of the worst abuses, 581 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: and that can sometimes be related to abuses linked to 582 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: access to healthcare, education, and those sorts of human rights 583 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: as well. For most people, when the conflict between Ukraine 584 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: and Russia, when Putin and Zelinski look like they're going 585 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: to go to another level. You know, many Americans, and 586 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 1: this is very common in America, they sit there like, yeah, 587 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: what's Russia's beef with the Ukraine? You know, I mean, like, 588 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 1: what's there? It's all new information for them, and so 589 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: for you, did you know this was coming? Yeah, I 590 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: mean we were definitely watching it closely. In our Ukraine 591 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 1: team we have we have a researcher working full time 592 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: on Ukraine and our broader Europe and Central Asia team 593 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: have been working on on the conflict in Ukraine since 594 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen. And since I've started being focusing so 595 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: closely on this, every Ukrainian you talked to reminds, you know, 596 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: the war didn't start in February. This has been going on, 597 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 1: So it's definitely something that we were aware of. And 598 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: then by late last year earlier this year, it seemed 599 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: more and more likely that it would really escalate. You're 600 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: hearing some pretty ugly horrible stories about abuses there and 601 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 1: that Putin and the Russians are war criminals and they're 602 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: doing all kinds of horrible things. Your organization, you have 603 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: people on the ground there in Ukrainei ass m. Yes, 604 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,919 Speaker 1: we don't, and the report to you that they see 605 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:57,919 Speaker 1: this themselves, they have first hand knowledge of these things themselves. Correct. Yes, yes, 606 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: So that's what our teams are doing, and that's really 607 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: trying to understand the context for the violations that are reported. So, 608 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: for example, there's been so much attention on Bucha. So 609 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: that's the area just north of Kiev that the Russian 610 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: forces retreated from and that's allowed Ukrainian authorities to retake control. 611 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: Journalists and others now have access, and we're seeing just 612 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 1: horrific images of the trail of violence that the Russian 613 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: forces left behind, Bodies strewn along the streets, reports of 614 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: mass graves and and just all of this violence and destruction. 615 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: But what our team there is doing is trying to 616 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: understand Okay, yes many people died, but how did they 617 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: die and what were the circumstances and does this amount 618 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: to war crimes? How did they die? And what were 619 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: the circumstances. So our team is they're documenting now and 620 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 1: it's it's clear that the Russian forces occupied this area 621 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: from around March fourth until March thirty one, and there 622 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: wasn't one single massacre, but there were a series of 623 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: many different incidents, lots of summary executions as well as 624 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: other cases of targeted killings and indiscriminate attacks on civilians. 625 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: So what we've seen is Russian forces going door to door, 626 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: interrogating the men and then sometimes dragging them out and 627 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: either shooting them on their yard in front of their house, 628 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: or in some cases taking them to a detention center 629 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: that they had set up, and then later their families 630 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: would find that they've been killed, sometimes with a bullet 631 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: to the head, and their bodies lying on the street 632 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: or behind different buildings. We've also seen just indiscriminate attacks, 633 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: sometimes if people who were sheltering in their basements came 634 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: out to look for food, or in one case a 635 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: man went out on his balcony to smoke a cigarette 636 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: and he was shot in the neck. So that's sort 637 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: of just violence at indiscriminate violence against civilians. And then 638 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,040 Speaker 1: when when you say indiscriminate I mean, I appreciate that 639 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: much of it is indiscriminate or also in addition, are 640 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: there some instances where the Russians have sympathizers there or 641 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: they have people who out of fear, are providing them 642 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: with information and saying ten seventeen Main Street, down the 643 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: block there, ten seventeen leon Ede bregion of boulevard, head 644 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: down there, and that guy is part of a cell, 645 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: and that guy is part of the troublemakers. Are a 646 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: lot of people getting ratted out there, So there are 647 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people capitulating and helping the Russians to 648 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: identify these people to send shock ways of terror throughout 649 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: the communities that they're in. So what we've seen in Buscha, 650 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: it's not clear that they're targeting any members of particular selves. 651 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: What they say is that they're quote hunting Nazis and 652 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: they're definitely looking for weapons in people's houses and anyone 653 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: with potential connections to the territorial defense forces. But many 654 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: of the cases that we've documented it doesn't appear that 655 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 1: the individuals who were who were targeted had any links 656 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: to military groups or or otherwise. But we have heard 657 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: cases in other areas that the Russian forces have occupied 658 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: of specific targeted attacks against, for example, journalists and activists 659 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: and others who they might deem to be a particular 660 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: threat to them. So when you go there, what possible 661 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: hope do you have of changing the situation in a 662 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: place with someone who is as unilateral as Putin is? 663 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,240 Speaker 1: I mean Putin is rolling those I mean the Russian 664 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,879 Speaker 1: army is a kick ass army. They got it all. 665 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: They got all the bombs and planes, that's whether that's 666 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: what they spend their money on. They don't feed their people, 667 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: they don't take care of their people. What hope do 668 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: you have of possibly negotiating with Putin? How do you 669 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 1: feel about that? Do you think there's any hope that 670 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: this is going to end? I think there is hope, 671 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: And I think that what we've seen in other in 672 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: other cases is that it can often take time, but 673 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: that if there is enough pressure and if the documentation 674 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: is there, you can see people being brought to justice. 675 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: And I think something that's really surprised me, and I've 676 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: never experienced this and other conflicts that I've worked on, 677 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: is just how quickly the international community mobilized and the 678 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: International Criminal Board launched an investigation right away. The United 679 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,399 Speaker 1: Nations Human Rights Council launched a commission of inquiry. There's 680 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: been all of this pressure and and Prudent hasn't felt 681 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: to this pressure before, so it might take time, but 682 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: I think that there is a possibility that we could 683 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: see see justice, but we have to keep pushing forward. 684 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: And I think it's important also to remember that the 685 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: types of crimes that we're seeing and we're documenting in 686 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: Ukraine now, they're very similar to crimes that our team 687 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: documented in Syria several years ago committed by Russian forces. 688 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 1: Some of these same commanders were involved, and they got 689 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: away with it, and they were never held to account, 690 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: and that impunity has helped facilitate has allowed to continue 691 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,399 Speaker 1: with these same sorts of abuses that we're seeing now 692 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: in Ukraine. So I really hope, you know, with all 693 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: of this mobilization, that we're seeing, this pressure, these investigations 694 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: that have started, that will actually finally see some justice 695 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,760 Speaker 1: this time. Do you have any hope that the Russians 696 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: will get kicked out of the Security Council. I think 697 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 1: we're a long way from that, but they were just 698 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 1: voted out of the Human Rights Council so I think 699 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: that sends an initial important signal that they really have 700 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: no place They're given this the horrific crimes that are 701 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,839 Speaker 1: being committed now, at the very least in terms of appearances. 702 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: I have a lot of faith in the United Nations 703 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 1: and I hope that they do kick them out of 704 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: the Security Council. As you said, it's a it's a 705 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: long shot, but I think that we need to We 706 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,320 Speaker 1: need to have people come to the table who recognize 707 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: that war itself is obsolete. That precisely what the Russians 708 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: are doing now is obsolete. You can't go in there 709 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: and completely level a whole country, rely on Western count 710 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: used to come in and clean up the mess. And 711 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: I feel like someone's got to be able to negotiate 712 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: with them and start a global introduction of an idea 713 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: that war itself as a war crime. Forget about there's 714 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: things you can't do during war. You can't do war, 715 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:21,359 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, how do we make war itself obsolete? Now? Um, 716 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: do you think that sanctions work? I think they can 717 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,120 Speaker 1: work here. I think it's also a question of are 718 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: they being implemented? So are you are we actually looking 719 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 1: for all of the resources that these individuals have and 720 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: making sure they're being seized. There's a question of network sanctions, 721 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: so not just the individuals, but those in the companies 722 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,280 Speaker 1: that are connected to them but hidden a bit, making 723 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: sure they're targeted as well. There's this muscle you developed 724 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: very keenly to look at what people do to abuse 725 00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,080 Speaker 1: political power. Has it effective when you come home as 726 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: Human Rights Watch ever brought a case against an American government, Yes, definitely. 727 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 1: So we have our US program is actually our biggest 728 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 1: country program. So we do a lot of work here 729 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: in the US. And so I was in New York 730 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,720 Speaker 1: before moving back to d C and worked in on 731 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 1: a lot of the police violence and abuse during the 732 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 1: George Floyd protests, and we did we did a big 733 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,359 Speaker 1: project on the crackdown in mod Haven and the South 734 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: Bronx and just documented how the police, the NYPD kettled 735 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 1: protesters there and then just used complete unprovoked violence, beating up, 736 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: cracking down on these protesters um and really worked with 737 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: other groups to push for push for some accountability. We 738 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 1: also did work around voting rights during the last elections, 739 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: and then we also look at the conduct of US 740 00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: forces internationally and strikes on civilian target for example, and 741 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: pushing for for accountability, reparations and that type of thing. 742 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: So we we definitely do work on the US And yes, 743 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: definitely big focus. You've dedicated your life to this incredibly 744 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: difficult work. You know, it's it's ugly. You learn the 745 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: realities of a lot of horrible things that have been 746 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 1: happening to people. What keeps you wanting to do this work? Yeah, 747 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,319 Speaker 1: I mean I think it is we do hear a 748 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 1: lot of just really horrible stories about the worst of humanity, 749 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,880 Speaker 1: but we also I feel like people want their story 750 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: to be told. They want people to know what they 751 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: what they experienced, what they suffered. So we do play 752 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: an important role in giving giving their stories a voice. 753 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 1: And then it's also when we do have successes, so 754 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:57,319 Speaker 1: when we finally see justice, um and and like it's 755 00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 1: it's seeing that that we can make make a difference. 756 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: What is victory for Human Rights Watch? What is justice? Yeah? 757 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: So I think one of one of the big victories 758 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,360 Speaker 1: we had was with Bosco and Tegonda. So he was 759 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 1: a warlord from an armed group backed by neighboring Rwanda, 760 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: and we had documented his crimes for over a decade. 761 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: Mass large scale massacres, mass rapes, sexual violence, he himself 762 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,240 Speaker 1: had raped women who were held under under their control, 763 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,359 Speaker 1: recruitment of children, just a lidany of abuses that we documented, 764 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 1: and eventually the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant 765 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,839 Speaker 1: for him and he was transferred to the Hague and 766 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 1: put on trial and later convicted for war crimes and 767 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,359 Speaker 1: crimes against humanity. So I think he is in prison, Yeah, 768 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,879 Speaker 1: in the Hague. He's in prison in the Netherlands, yes, 769 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,839 Speaker 1: But what sentence was he given? So thirty years? He 770 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: was sentenced to thirty years for war crimes or human 771 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,239 Speaker 1: rights abuses in the Hague. This guy, Wow, that's that's 772 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,319 Speaker 1: that's amazing. To get a guy like that, who's real, 773 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,919 Speaker 1: who a real kingpin, a guy who was a lot 774 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,799 Speaker 1: of murder and death and blood on his hands and 775 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: has destroyed the lives of countless people. To see that 776 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 1: guy get locked up in prisoner must have been very, 777 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,280 Speaker 1: very satisfying. Well, as you're another spot in the world, 778 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 1: is Ida Sawyer headed somewhere? You don't have to say, 779 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: But do you have another location you want to go 780 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: to next? Well? I am probably heading to Ukraine next week. 781 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: So keeping the focus there for yeah, well listen. Thank 782 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us, and if you do 783 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: head over there, please be careful. Thank you so much. 784 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:50,360 Speaker 1: My thanks to Ida Sawyer and Bryce Wilson. This episode 785 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,480 Speaker 1: was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. 786 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the 787 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,840 Speaker 1: thing is brought to you buy iHeart Radio