Speaker 1: Hey guys.
Speaker 2: Before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're
Speaker 2: looking for news stories of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series,
Speaker 2: which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal and feel
Speaker 2: ready to share your story, now is a great time
Speaker 2: to reach out. Email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail
Speaker 2: dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: It is not to your detriment that you have loved
Speaker 1: and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person. You,
Speaker 1: unfortunately just got an unhealthy, really sick person who was
Speaker 1: so invested in keeping you out of his whole double
Speaker 1: life that he was living and used every tactic in
Speaker 1: the world to keep you blind to that.
Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode
Speaker 2: eight Solace. Caroline Brega has been dealing with the fallout
Speaker 2: of her husband's betrayal for more than three years. When
Speaker 2: you've been married for half your life, the recovery is long, unpredictable.
Speaker 2: At the beginning, it's just about getting through the next hour,
Speaker 2: the next twenty four hours, being able to get yourself
Speaker 2: to work or show up for your kids. Now, Caroline
Speaker 2: is reaching the point where she can start to truly
Speaker 2: process and heal from that experience. We connected Caroline with
Speaker 2: Kristen Snowden, an expert in betrayal, trauma, and infidelity. She's
Speaker 2: a licensed marriage and Family therapist in the state of
Speaker 2: California and a certified life coach.
Speaker 1: My specialty is helping couples and individuals navigate relationship crises
Speaker 1: that have been brought upon by uncovering an unknown addiction
Speaker 1: or infidelity, and that's either chemical addictions or process addictions
Speaker 1: such as sex, peorn love addiction.
Speaker 2: Addiction is a loaded term and one we want to
Speaker 2: use carefully. Most of us know someone who struggled with
Speaker 2: a chemical addiction, like one to alcohol or opioids. Process
Speaker 2: addictions are different. They involve compulsive behaviors that activate the
Speaker 2: brain's reward system. The DSM five, the official manual clinicians
Speaker 2: used to diagnose mental health disorders, only recognizes one process
Speaker 2: addiction that's gambling disorder. Others, like sex addiction, remain controversial
Speaker 2: and are not officially classified as mental health diagnoses. This
Speaker 2: is not to say the experience of sex addiction isn't
Speaker 2: real and valid, but without a diagnostic criteria can be misunderstood.
Speaker 2: Misused or even abused. Joel began using the word addiction
Speaker 2: to describe his behavior, but only after he was caught.
Speaker 2: You'll remember the text he sent Caroline from rehab.
Speaker 3: Low self esteem, self hatred, depression, anxiety, addiction all contributed
Speaker 3: to my behavior and actions, saying people would not do
Speaker 3: what I did, but I literally was not in my
Speaker 3: right mind.
Speaker 2: We don't know if Joel has been diagnosed with any
Speaker 2: addictions to substances, but because Joel referred to himself as
Speaker 2: an addict, you'll hear Kristen and Caroline use that term
Speaker 2: in this conversation. They're also using it as a shorthand
Speaker 2: for his compulsive and destructive behavior. Kristen started one of
Speaker 2: the first dual diagnosis treatment programs for people with both
Speaker 2: chemical addictions and sexual acting out behaviors, but in the
Speaker 2: last ten years, her focus has shifted to helping betrayed partners.
Speaker 2: She runs groups for those that have been betrayed, and
Speaker 2: she has a YouTube channel where she shares free resources
Speaker 2: for those navigating relationship crises.
Speaker 1: I want betrayed partners to have that specialty training and
Speaker 1: education that they deserve that I think is going to
Speaker 1: help launch them into the ability to heal from these traumas.
Speaker 2: When Kristen first meets with new clients, she often begins
Speaker 2: with this metaphor.
Speaker 1: Something that we do all day, every day is we drive.
Speaker 1: And what we do is we're essentially taking for granted
Speaker 1: that everybody else around us is going to follow the
Speaker 1: rules of the road, and that is what we're doing.
Speaker 1: When we're in these long term relationships with our partners,
Speaker 1: we have very direct, spoken rules but also unspoken rules
Speaker 1: that we're going to give each other the benefit of doubt,
Speaker 1: We're going to do our best to do no harm.
Speaker 1: We're going to follow the rules and move along in
Speaker 1: the correct way together. And then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: when you uncover that your partner is capable of lying,
Speaker 1: sneaking around. It is as if someone is asking you
Speaker 1: every day to just go do the basic things like
Speaker 1: just go drive with the grocery store, just go drop
Speaker 1: your kids off. But oh, by the way, no one's
Speaker 1: going to follow the rules of the road. Hope you
Speaker 1: make it there.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 1: Suddenly the drive, the simple drive that you took for
Speaker 1: granted every single day, becomes the most terrifying, hypervigilant, soul
Speaker 1: sucking experience because you don't know what's coming at you,
Speaker 1: and that is like the best metaphor I have to
Speaker 1: help people understand what these betrayed partners are going through
Speaker 1: from the minute they find out what their partner's done
Speaker 1: and onward.
Speaker 2: Kristin often works with people like Caroline, people who've been
Speaker 2: left to pick up the pieces in the wake of
Speaker 2: their partner's betrayal.
Speaker 1: She's my qui essential client. Unfortunately, I've seen hundreds of her,
Speaker 1: if not thousands.
Speaker 2: Kristin met with Caroline several times over the course of
Speaker 2: this season. With their permission, we'd like to share excerpts
Speaker 2: from those sessions with you. Caroline started with the problem
Speaker 2: she confronts often in her life, feeling on edge. In
Speaker 2: the city she calls home, all she sees are places
Speaker 2: where Joel arranged his meetups. These are landmarks that memorialize
Speaker 2: her husband's affairs.
Speaker 4: There's really only one way to drive to our local airport,
Speaker 4: and I hate the drive. I hate it. All I
Speaker 4: can do is think about this is where he did
Speaker 4: this at, This is where he did this at. How
Speaker 4: many people did he meet in this area? How many
Speaker 4: times did this occur? Like it is just repetitive in
Speaker 4: me how do you.
Speaker 1: Feel in your body when you're driving to the airport
Speaker 1: and you're crossing all those triggering places and spaces. What
Speaker 1: does it feel like.
Speaker 4: It could be the coldest morning in Colorado, and I
Speaker 4: will start sweating when I reach that area of town.
Speaker 4: I will have my heat completely turned off. I'll need
Speaker 4: to crack the window, and the nausea starts, and my
Speaker 4: brain just starts churning. This is the area where he
Speaker 4: did this? How many times did he meet someone? It
Speaker 4: will just continuously churn and I'll keep playing it and
Speaker 4: replaying it and replaying it even after I park, when
Speaker 4: I'm bringing my luggage up, when I'm checking in, it
Speaker 4: just continuously plays in me. The piece of it that
Speaker 4: is so aggravating is that I have no control over it.
Speaker 4: I'm still reliving it every time I drive that route.
Speaker 4: I think that I am a strong female, but I
Speaker 4: will tell you that if you want to test someone's
Speaker 4: ability to stay strong, go through this and have to
Speaker 4: live it every day.
Speaker 1: Right. That's why I always think it's interesting. But there's
Speaker 1: really no such thing in the diagnostic manuals that categorizes
Speaker 1: betrayal as a form of TRAUMADTSD, doesn't really fall in
Speaker 1: that because you know, it has to be life threatening event,
Speaker 1: and people don't consider these things to be life threatening.
Speaker 1: But I mean, I can imagine you feel like you
Speaker 1: have PTSD symptoms.
Speaker 4: I know I do, and I think it's evidenced by
Speaker 4: the fact that my kids and I say, unless it
Speaker 4: was an absolute life threatening event, we will never call
Speaker 4: law enforcement.
Speaker 1: M I'm sorry. It's like a systemic betrayal, similar to
Speaker 1: people who've been betrayed to by the like religious organizations
Speaker 1: like abused by the people in charge, and then shunned
Speaker 1: and ignored and never validated or supported by their community.
Speaker 4: You know, I pride myself in being someone who can
Speaker 4: compartmentalize and keep myself together, but it is a struggle
Speaker 4: to keep every emotion in and keep my shoulders back
Speaker 4: and my head high. Constantly running into his colleagues.
Speaker 1: What's the story you're telling yourself about what they are
Speaker 1: experiencing when they see you.
Speaker 4: When life blew up. Initially to me and my kids,
Speaker 4: Joel said it was my fault. It was my fault
Speaker 4: because we weren't having sex as much as he wanted to.
Speaker 4: I wasn't doing things that he wanted to sexually like
Speaker 4: he pointed the finger at me. And this is also
Speaker 4: the narrative that he started telling all of his employment.
Speaker 4: They're thinking to their selves, we know what Joel did.
Speaker 4: We've been told that you're the reason why this happened.
Speaker 4: He had to go seek sex elsewhere because he wasn't
Speaker 4: getting it at home. He needed to go find it
Speaker 4: around the community. This is all your fault. You caused
Speaker 4: him to lose his job. In one of his disciplinary
Speaker 4: write ups, it actually says Joel disc us that he
Speaker 4: was having problems with his wife at home. It's like
Speaker 4: everyone heard this narrative, but me. I didn't know this.
Speaker 4: In my world, we were living this really blessed, utopian life.
Speaker 4: I didn't know that this was being put on blast
Speaker 4: about me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is that like? On top of the shame
Speaker 1: that you just generally experienced from being betrayed by your
Speaker 1: intimate partner and finding out that he's led this whole
Speaker 1: double life, what is that like to have this community
Speaker 1: where they're blaming you or using your parent marital life
Speaker 1: to justify his behavior.
Speaker 4: It just continued to involve this constant nausea and chaos
Speaker 4: in my life. And to have to have this pretend
Speaker 4: face and this very low affect to not show emotion
Speaker 4: was miserable, and it definitely doesn't feel sustainable to continue
Speaker 4: to try to have this pretend normal at work. It
Speaker 4: doesn't feel good to have this pretend normal at community
Speaker 4: events where I see police officers who stare at me
Speaker 4: and my kids when we're together. My daughter was in
Speaker 4: a car accident her junior year, shortly after he blew
Speaker 4: up our lives. About a month and a week later,
Speaker 4: she was te boned and hit by a driver. And
Speaker 4: when I went out to the scene to see her,
Speaker 4: thank god, she was okay. But even in that moment,
Speaker 4: cops were pulling up to the scene, and I could
Speaker 4: hear them. They didn't even care that we were there,
Speaker 4: what we had just gone through. I could hear them,
Speaker 4: Oh my god, there's Kern's wife and his kid. Oh
Speaker 4: my god, can you believe that he's in rehab right now?
Speaker 4: I could hear them.
Speaker 1: In like your moment of raw vulnerability.
Speaker 4: Yes, I am for my daughter. I am terrified seeing
Speaker 4: how she looks. She's just an absolute shock. Even in
Speaker 4: that moment it's thrown in my face.
Speaker 1: It must be overwhelming, especially when part of your trauma
Speaker 1: has been being lied to. I can imagine it being
Speaker 1: just even more frustrating, to say the least, that you
Speaker 1: continue to be surrounded by a community that keeps telling
Speaker 1: you that you're to blame. There is such a healing
Speaker 1: and release of trauma that happens when a community can
Speaker 1: share in validating that what happened was not okay, and
Speaker 1: that was scary and that rocked our world. And I
Speaker 1: just I'm so sad that you've been denied. I'm hearing
Speaker 1: that you live in a community where there's just a
Speaker 1: lack of empathy for what you and the kids have
Speaker 1: gone through.
Speaker 4: I think it's not only a lack of empathy. I
Speaker 4: think it is the belief of a false narrative.
Speaker 1: What do you tell you about why they can kind
Speaker 1: of be so non empathetic, why they're so invested in
Speaker 1: holding on to Joel's story.
Speaker 4: Hear me out because I'm going to sound very self
Speaker 4: loathing while I say this. I did it. I believe Joel.
Speaker 4: I mean I initially carried this guilt when he looked
Speaker 4: at me and he said, well, we weren't having sex enough.
Speaker 4: You were paying more attention to the kids than you
Speaker 4: did to me. I didn't feel like you loved me,
Speaker 4: And in the moments of it, I doubted myself. I thought,
Speaker 4: oh my god, were we having sex enough? Did I
Speaker 4: show you that I loved you? Did I pay more
Speaker 4: attention to the kids than you? I mean, he got
Speaker 4: in my head when he was excusing his behaviors until
Speaker 4: I know the extent of what he did. When it
Speaker 4: became reality, I was able to let go some of
Speaker 4: that guilt and that burden. But this was someone who
Speaker 4: was extremely well liked within the department. You know, he
Speaker 4: was friendly and got along with people, and he supported
Speaker 4: his own and all of these things. My husband lived
Speaker 4: a double life. And in my gut, I believe that
Speaker 4: he is an extremely intelligent man, and I do think
Speaker 4: that he knew as things were progressing he was about
Speaker 4: ready to be caught and he needed to start shifting
Speaker 4: the blame or provide excuses and people believe him.
Speaker 1: When betrayal happens in a relationship, in a marriage, the
Speaker 1: vulnerability of the fact that that can happen to anybody,
Speaker 1: that you can be blindsided by someone you trust in
Speaker 1: love and they can hurt you the most. I think
Speaker 1: that hits too close to home for most people. So
Speaker 1: they have to package it up in a way that
Speaker 1: makes you different than them. You know, it's scary to
Speaker 1: think that my partner can just go out have a
Speaker 1: bunch of sex with somebody else, lie sninak around, keep
Speaker 1: doing it. If I really sat with the vulnerability of
Speaker 1: that would just lock me up, Like the powerlessness of
Speaker 1: that is just too scary. As a defense mechanism, I
Speaker 1: have to make your story different so I can go
Speaker 1: back and carry on in my life. So the story
Speaker 1: has to be Caroline didn't give him enough sex. Well,
Speaker 1: I give my partner enough sex, and that just others
Speaker 1: her in a way where it allows me to just
Speaker 1: not feel the vulnerability. Do you get what I'm trying
Speaker 1: to say?
Speaker 4: It makes sense, like a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: It's just in this realm of infidelities where there seems
Speaker 1: to be this really strong focus on the betrayed partner.
Speaker 1: No one blames the wife or the spouse or a
Speaker 1: partner for someone's heroin addiction, except for someone's gambling addiction.
Speaker 1: There's just something about the fact that in people's brains
Speaker 1: they want to make it a relational problem when it
Speaker 1: is not a relational problem. What I always say is
Speaker 1: it's like this additional trauma and abuse that happens, that will,
Speaker 1: as you're saying, shut a betrayed partner down, stop them
Speaker 1: from wanting to share their story, cause them to feel
Speaker 1: even more isolated after they've already been betrayed by the
Speaker 1: person they've made themselves most exposed to. Why are we
Speaker 1: talking about, like, well, did you have sex with them enough?
Speaker 1: Were you nagging? I mean it does nothing but harm.
Speaker 2: Caroline is talking to Kristen Snowden, a licensed therapist and
Speaker 2: life coach who specializes in betrayal trauma.
Speaker 4: The other night, I was at a very popular brewery
Speaker 4: and I walk in and I'm standing in line, and
Speaker 4: I hear Caroline, and I turn and I look and
Speaker 4: it's one of Joel's best friends. When Joel got in trouble,
Speaker 4: he turned to this person and he goes over, opens
Speaker 4: his arm, gives me a hug. I did like one
Speaker 4: of these where I just kept my arms straight down,
Speaker 4: you know, like I don't want you to physically touch me.
Speaker 1: Like you had a physiological response to him.
Speaker 4: Yes, we don't need to have physical contact. I do
Speaker 4: not want to hug you. We are not friends. I
Speaker 4: know what you have said about me.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: I just kept my arms straight down, very stiff, and
Speaker 4: he was like, how are you And I just stopped
Speaker 4: him and I said, you know what, I know all
Speaker 4: of the horrible things you have said about me and
Speaker 4: the blame you have placed on me, there's no need
Speaker 4: for us to talk. And he looked at me and
Speaker 4: he kind of got this smirk and he said, okay.
Speaker 4: But for the first time in a long time, it
Speaker 4: felt empowering to not take it, to not engage in it.
Speaker 1: What do you think the difference was? Why now?
Speaker 4: I think the difference at this point is that I
Speaker 4: know I'm not alone. For a long time, I felt
Speaker 4: like this could never happen to anyone else, and this
Speaker 4: almost shame and guilt and the personification of Joel's actions
Speaker 4: onto me and my kids just filled me with embarrassment.
Speaker 4: You know, that was one of the things that drew
Speaker 4: me in with the podcast, as hearing, oh my god,
Speaker 4: like this happened to someone else. Since everything happened, I
Speaker 4: feel like in my past life I was this pretty
Speaker 4: confident person, but since my ex husband's secret life had
Speaker 4: been revealed to me, I mean, it just really put
Speaker 4: a weight of constant insecurity on me. Just constant and
Speaker 4: it's been a really long time since I have been
Speaker 4: able to keep my head up really long time.
Speaker 1: It's common for us to feel less confident and standing
Speaker 1: in our own reality when we're surrounded by people who
Speaker 1: are questioning our reality. There was so many elements where
Speaker 1: you were saying, look, this is you're in a different location.
Speaker 1: Where are you? No, you're crazy, No, I don't know
Speaker 1: what's wrong with you. So you were in a constant
Speaker 1: environment with him where he was questioning your reality, and
Speaker 1: then after he left, you were living in this world
Speaker 1: where everyone was kind of validating his narrative and not
Speaker 1: extending grace and empathy towards you in a very very
Speaker 1: painful way. So I could completely understand why you've struggled
Speaker 1: so much to stand in your confidence. It's so traumatizing
Speaker 1: to have someone dismantle your instincts and intuition and question
Speaker 1: your reality, question your sanity. It is a huge casualty
Speaker 1: of betrayal.
Speaker 4: Yes, spot on.
Speaker 1: I always say like, you've been traumatized, and now you're
Speaker 1: responsible for trying your best to mitigate those unfortunate circumstances.
Speaker 1: Right that you now have a traumatized body, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have trauma triggers, trauma responses. It gets really confusing, like
Speaker 1: is this a red flag or is this like a
Speaker 1: trauma response, a trauma trigger that's coming up for me.
Speaker 1: And so it's just really important to have a couple
Speaker 1: people in your community where you can bounce this off
Speaker 1: of and validate. Am I crazy? Because it's just the
Speaker 1: most benign things you find yourself questioning. That is one
Speaker 1: of the healing pathways after being betrayed. You can't do
Speaker 1: it on your own, no, And so it's this counterintuitive thing, right.
Speaker 1: People come to me because their lives have been devastated
Speaker 1: and turn upside down because they have opened their heart
Speaker 1: and their life to a person and they have just
Speaker 1: been lied to and their whole lives destroy their families
Speaker 1: destroyed because of it. And one of my treatment processes
Speaker 1: is to say, well, and now you need to go
Speaker 1: to a group, and most understandably so they say, hell, no,
Speaker 1: I've exposed myself enough.
Speaker 2: I'm popping in here for just a second. Caroline, like
Speaker 2: many people who've been betrayed, was initially resistant to group workshops,
Speaker 2: but eventually she decided to give them a shot and
Speaker 2: she joined a group. Kristin runs for betrayed partners.
Speaker 4: One of the big pieces of why I fell in
Speaker 4: that category was because it's hard to believe there are
Speaker 4: evil humans out there that would do the same thing
Speaker 4: to other innocent people. And then being in that group hearing,
Speaker 4: oh my god, this happened to all of you. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and replace my name with your name, and our stories
Speaker 4: are almost parallel to each other. I mean, we walked
Speaker 4: a very similar path. You feel so alone though at
Speaker 4: the beginning when it happens, like this could not happen
Speaker 4: to anyone else, especially when you're surrounded with friends and
Speaker 4: family members who assumedly are living these very healthy marriages
Speaker 4: and healthy relationships, and like you're just on this little
Speaker 4: island by yourself that no one else would really understand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what has it been like to be in
Speaker 1: a group where you're around several women who are betrayed
Speaker 1: partners of sex addicts, And I mean, what's that been
Speaker 1: like to hear all those stories?
Speaker 4: There's been I mean a great sense of camaraderie, definitely
Speaker 4: some validation.
Speaker 1: And I always think it's very interesting. One of the
Speaker 1: miss about betrayal trauma is we think that this the
Speaker 1: person that got betrayed, the person that got bamboozled and
Speaker 1: lied to is this passive person that just kind of
Speaker 1: gets fooled. But so often I run into betrayed partners,
Speaker 1: and in every other facet of their life, they're extremely
Speaker 1: clear about what they want, what they need, and it
Speaker 1: just shows the manipulation power that their attic partners.
Speaker 4: Use one hundred percent accurate.
Speaker 1: You've seen in these groups, these phenomenal women who are
Speaker 1: just so smart, have these careers, had these lives, had
Speaker 1: these great children, and then just got side swiped and
Speaker 1: blindsided by their partner's behavior that they had no idea.
Speaker 1: And these betrayed partners often are so busy, in fact,
Speaker 1: living their lives, trying to be the best parents they
Speaker 1: can be, be the best partners that they can be,
Speaker 1: and don't even realize that people can lie and deceive
Speaker 1: and commit illegal acts. All of those are so far
Speaker 1: off their radar. That is why they are kind of
Speaker 1: victimized over such a long period of time. That is
Speaker 1: why they are often so primed to let their partners
Speaker 1: lies kind of trump their own instincts and intuition. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna say, you're a beautiful woman, you're
Speaker 1: well spoken, you're educated, you have this career, you have
Speaker 1: these kids, and it just starts taking stories off of
Speaker 1: people's lists, Like they can't write the story that you
Speaker 1: were unattractive, or you were crazy, or you were money hungry.
Speaker 1: I mean, because you're just You're none of those things.
Speaker 1: You're a high functioning, attractive, loving, stable human being that
Speaker 1: happen to marry an unhealthy person and you are still
Speaker 1: suffering the consequences.
Speaker 4: Thank you for saying that. That makes me like, thank you,
Speaker 4: thank you. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: It is not to your detriment that you have loved
Speaker 1: and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person.
Speaker 1: You unfortunately just got the person who was so invested
Speaker 1: in keeping you out of his whole double life that
Speaker 1: he was living and used every tactic in the world
Speaker 1: to keep you blind to that.
Speaker 4: I heard from multiple family members and then some of
Speaker 4: his subsequent online paramours. He actually used me filing the
Speaker 4: divorce as a tool to garner sympathy. His comment to
Speaker 4: people was, I was sick and Caroline wouldn't work with me.
Speaker 4: You know, Caroline wouldn't stay with me and see me
Speaker 4: through getting the therapy I needed. You know, she just
Speaker 4: wanted to run right away. That was one of the
Speaker 4: things that he had told people, and it had been
Speaker 4: used against me. Of well, if you really loved him,
Speaker 4: you would have stuck it out with him.
Speaker 1: Well and better. Yet, someone in recovery who's really reckoned
Speaker 1: with the fact that there are consequences to every action
Speaker 1: is understanding that these are the typical consequences that come
Speaker 1: with that behavior. I've made bad choices, and I lied,
Speaker 1: and I snuck around, and I broke my vows, and
Speaker 1: I exposed my family to a lot of uncertainty and unsafety.
Speaker 1: And it's heartbreaking and horrible, and I wish that wasn't
Speaker 1: the case. I wish I'd changed sooner. I mean, those
Speaker 1: are words of someone who's moving through recovery. His words
Speaker 1: are more reflective somebody who's just always constantly building that
Speaker 1: wall of entitlement. I work so hard. I'm entitled to
Speaker 1: go do this. She's always nagging me. I'm entitled to
Speaker 1: go do this. I didn't get that promotion. I'm entitled
Speaker 1: to go do this. It's my birthday. I'm titled to
Speaker 1: go do this. I had childhood trauma. I'm entitled to
Speaker 1: go do this. Those are dangerous, dangerous people That is
Speaker 1: not a sign of someone who is, as we say
Speaker 1: in the twelve step world, who's humbled and surrendered. The
Speaker 1: sign of someone who's always setting up justification, rationale and
Speaker 1: entitlement to go out and do what they want to
Speaker 1: do because I get to and they are not thinking
Speaker 1: about the family system, they are not thinking about their
Speaker 1: values and goals, they're not definitely not thinking about the
Speaker 1: true consequences to their behaviors, and those are all things
Speaker 1: required for someone to live in recovery.
Speaker 4: It was funny because you actually said this to me
Speaker 4: last week. I had this moment of like a mind fuck,
Speaker 4: of like did I give it my all? Should I
Speaker 4: have stayed in? You know, I made a vow to
Speaker 4: stay with him in sickness and in health.
Speaker 2: As a reminder. Caroline made the decision to leave the
Speaker 2: marriage after she got a call from a case manager
Speaker 2: at Joel's rehab facility. The case manager told Cane that
Speaker 2: Joel was one of the worst cases of sex addiction
Speaker 2: she'd ever seen. He wasn't taking the treatment seriously, and
Speaker 2: when Caroline realized he wasn't doing the work, she decided
Speaker 2: their marriage was irreparable.
Speaker 4: And that's why I tried to separate our lives as
Speaker 4: quick as I could.
Speaker 2: Caroline reflected back on this moment after hearing the stories
Speaker 2: of other women in Kristen's group, some of whom were
Speaker 2: trying to repair their marriages.
Speaker 4: I took pause for a second of seeing these women
Speaker 4: really try and then saying, you know, I think I'm
Speaker 4: to the point now where I can walk away because
Speaker 4: I've really done everything. I've exhausted all efforts. And I
Speaker 4: had a moment of I should have exhausted all efforts.
Speaker 4: Why didn't I do that? So this past week, two
Speaker 4: of them did say it, I wish I would have
Speaker 4: left right away, And like after we hung up, I
Speaker 4: just I don't know, I just like cried and cried
Speaker 4: and cried just because because it was validating. There's so
Speaker 4: many things that just you replan your head, like did
Speaker 4: I should I could I even though I know I
Speaker 4: did the right thing, but hearing someone say I wish
Speaker 4: I did that, it just felt validating.
Speaker 1: And like we said that, in any given group, there's
Speaker 1: always a story in your head that should I have
Speaker 1: tried harder, should I have left sooner? It is the conundrum. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure, you know, having hope that they'll change, and
Speaker 1: then it's the painful coming to that hard conclusion when
Speaker 1: you're just like, I don't think this person's ever going
Speaker 1: to change. It's not always the case. I obviously do
Speaker 1: work with couples and addicts in recovery who do pivot
Speaker 1: and change, so I always say it's okay to leave,
Speaker 1: and it's okay stay. But especially the betrayed partners who
Speaker 1: don't get the closure, the full disclosure of what really happened,
Speaker 1: a full understanding of why they did what they did,
Speaker 1: with a newfound understanding because they've done all this work
Speaker 1: to understand their poor coping skills and what led them
Speaker 1: to do these behaviors and what was really going on
Speaker 1: in their head. It is so hard for betrayed partners
Speaker 1: to move through and heal without that closure.
Speaker 2: We've been listening to Caroline talk with Kristen Snowden about
Speaker 2: healing after betrayal. One of the things Caroline addressed in
Speaker 2: her sessions was how to have healthy relationships going forward.
Speaker 4: Every Sunday, a group of friends and I get together
Speaker 4: and we do something called Separate Club. I mean, they're
Speaker 4: kind of my core group of people, like my trusted circle,
Speaker 4: the ones who know the full story. But one of
Speaker 4: the things about being in that circle is that they've
Speaker 4: seen me on this journey of attempting to move forward,
Speaker 4: attempting to garner some semblance of normalcy, and they've seen
Speaker 4: me go from very very scared to start dating to
Speaker 4: I'm going to rip the band aid off and go
Speaker 4: on my first date, or I think I'll hang out
Speaker 4: with this person for a little bit. This person is
Speaker 4: not healthier. These qualities are things that I don't want
Speaker 4: around me, and I will make excuses very quick to
Speaker 4: not let things be serious or feel vulnerable in any way.
Speaker 4: And then there's been times where I have thought, I
Speaker 4: just am starting to feel too close and I'd rather
Speaker 4: run before I feel hurt. Well, for the first time,
Speaker 4: maybe ever, since this happened, I have been around someone
Speaker 4: who is just if you just saw this person. My
Speaker 4: joke is that this is like a mother's dream. I mean,
Speaker 4: this is someone who is personable and handsome and amazing,
Speaker 4: has done good service for the community and to his country.
Speaker 4: And there are times where I have been getting ready
Speaker 4: to hang out with him and I will literally be
Speaker 4: putting them on my makeup and think to myself, you
Speaker 4: should run tonight. Tonight's the night you should just go
Speaker 4: to dinner and then ghost him, never speak to him again.
Speaker 4: And I can't really tell you why. It's just this
Speaker 4: feeling of protect yourself now before you feel any more vulnerable. Run.
Speaker 4: Nothing has gone wrong, there's been no red flag. There's
Speaker 4: nothing except this internal voice in me that says you're
Speaker 4: starting to let your guard down, protect yourself, go go now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and.
Speaker 4: You know this supper club that I do. I took
Speaker 4: a chance and invited him to supper club. He walked
Speaker 4: in just a little bit late. Now, the excuse for
Speaker 4: being late. Something came up with his kids. He was
Speaker 4: just running a little bit late. Was it two hours late? No,
Speaker 4: an hour late, not even close, nothing like that. But
Speaker 4: in that moment, I thought, there it is, there's your reason.
Speaker 1: Do it.
Speaker 4: Do it now? Just ridiculous. And one of my friends
Speaker 4: in supper club actually said, do not let this be
Speaker 4: this reason that you let something good go. Don't do it.
Speaker 4: So I know people see it and I know it,
Speaker 4: but I don't know how to let go of that feeling.
Speaker 1: Well, honestly, because because once you've had your instincts and
Speaker 1: intuition totally destroyed and dismantled and being told, oh, it's
Speaker 1: night outside, when the sun is beaming in your eyes.
Speaker 1: It's so common to constantly struggle with the inner compass
Speaker 1: of what's safe and what's not safe when we have
Speaker 1: these wounded parts in us, these really hurt parts because
Speaker 1: understandably so, you have been victimized. We often want to
Speaker 1: push them away because we're sitting there getting ready for
Speaker 1: the date. We should be happy. We tell ourselves what
Speaker 1: we should be right. This is a good person, it's
Speaker 1: great that we're dating. As you said, all the moms
Speaker 1: of the world would love him. So we instinctively want
Speaker 1: to push out that scared part that's screaming out. But
Speaker 1: you have to do kind of something that is counterintuitive,
Speaker 1: which is go into that part and learn more and
Speaker 1: it actually is pretty amazing, like the stories that scared
Speaker 1: part will tell you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a really good challenge.
Speaker 1: And for a woman, let's say, especially a nurturing mom
Speaker 1: like you, it helps with our paradigm shift if we
Speaker 1: view it as like a scared child or even a
Speaker 1: scared teenager, and you listen to it like a mom
Speaker 1: because you're not judging it, you're not saying, oh, what's
Speaker 1: wrong with you? This guy's great, Like stop it, shut up.
Speaker 1: Instead you can say, like, what's scary? All right? How
Speaker 1: can I help you feel safe? What do we know
Speaker 1: now versus what we're feeling inside? And can we get
Speaker 1: through this? And then you and I talked about this before.
Speaker 1: But it's also all about the repair attempt that happens
Speaker 1: once you bring this to the person you're dating. You
Speaker 1: now have taken the minute to be like, this triggered
Speaker 1: the heck out of me. I feel really unsafe. Lateness
Speaker 1: does not just mean being to me. There's this amazing
Speaker 1: repair attempt that can happen in a future relationship where
Speaker 1: this time your partner doesn't invalidate you. They don't tell
Speaker 1: you you're crazy. They can say, you know, I'm sorry
Speaker 1: this made you feel scared or upset. I'm sorry this
Speaker 1: triggered a history, but let me help you feel safe
Speaker 1: for this time.
Speaker 4: So it's interesting that you bring that last part up
Speaker 4: because I wanted to be fair and I actually told
Speaker 4: him about the podcast, and so telling him about the
Speaker 4: podcast meant that I had to tell him about my history.
Speaker 4: And I admit that I not only told him to
Speaker 4: be fair, but I also told him, because there was
Speaker 4: this piece of me that was like, so you're going
Speaker 4: to hear this and you're going to see just the
Speaker 4: insanity that I've had to experience. Let me see if
Speaker 4: I can get you to run. And his response was
Speaker 4: I think you're really brave.
Speaker 1: Wow. And how healing was that sentence.
Speaker 4: It was just like oh my god, oh my God,
Speaker 4: like thank you. It had been a really long time
Speaker 4: to hear someone. I mean, of course, my friends, my
Speaker 4: friends have seen and heard and they know the insanity
Speaker 4: and the wheel of insanity that I was locked into
Speaker 4: and what I was going through. But for him to
Speaker 4: have taken pause, listened to me, asked relevant clarifying questions,
Speaker 4: and then ended it with I think you're really brave.
Speaker 4: It took this weight off of me and to have
Speaker 4: just this pause for wait, there is some humanity in this.
Speaker 1: That is so healing. I mean, that's why I also
Speaker 1: say why betrayal trauma can never be healed on your own,
Speaker 1: because these are severe attachment wounds. These are wounds that
Speaker 1: came due to others breaking your heart and betraying you.
Speaker 1: So a lot of the healing and rewiring has to
Speaker 1: occur in a relationship setting and as you mentioned, good friends, family,
Speaker 1: But your brain has to find new evidence that your
Speaker 1: ex's behaviors were more unique and an anomaly that you
Speaker 1: can avoid by taking healthy steps and setting up boundaries
Speaker 1: and keeping other safe people around you for a checks
Speaker 1: and balance system. But these are the rule. He was
Speaker 1: the exception. These are the rule, and you can still
Speaker 1: feel safe and vulnerable with these people.
Speaker 4: It's tough, though, Oh it's scary.
Speaker 1: Well, and let's like talk to those scared parts for
Speaker 1: a second. What is different, you know, update those scared
Speaker 1: parts that were betrayed and blindsided. What is different now?
Speaker 4: Well, one of the biggest things is that I'm not married,
Speaker 4: and I'm not locked into this need to believe or
Speaker 4: feel like I needed to have blind trust in someone.
Speaker 4: That I am my own authority. I can make my
Speaker 4: own decisions on this and don't need to believe anyone
Speaker 4: for anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I always say I never let someone tell me
Speaker 1: what my reality in my experience is. You never get
Speaker 1: to tell me that. And even if even if I
Speaker 1: am inaccurate with like thinking that you're somewhere or that
Speaker 1: you were cheating and you're not cheating, the bottom line
Speaker 1: is my experiences, I'm questioning your choices. I'm not feeling
Speaker 1: safe in this relationship. I'm experiencing in congruencies that are
Speaker 1: making me want to pull away. I don't feel respected,
Speaker 1: I don't feel like you're hearing me, And those are
Speaker 1: all important things to be relentless about. I'm supposed to
Speaker 1: feel safe with other people, and so when I don't,
Speaker 1: it's my job, my responsibility to really go inside and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: what is happening that's making me not feel safe. A
Speaker 1: partner who loves you, who considers you a partner guy,
Speaker 1: should both be invested in helping the other person feel safe,
Speaker 1: be able to talk it out, negotiate, validate, change the
Speaker 1: way you approach issues that aren't working. But from the
Speaker 1: part's work, I would say, don't ignore those parts. They're
Speaker 1: not bad, but you have to dive deeper into that
Speaker 1: part and understand what's it trying to tell you. And
Speaker 1: then the other piece is to let them know this
Speaker 1: is an updated information. I didn't know how to keep
Speaker 1: myself safe in the past. I was completely bamboozled. I
Speaker 1: was deprived of all the information I needed to keep
Speaker 1: myself safe. I didn't even know what I didn't even know,
Speaker 1: but look how much more I know now.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Kristen. You have no idea. This means so
Speaker 4: much to me. The fact that I have this clarity
Speaker 4: and insight now, I just I can't thank you enough.
Speaker 4: A quick note.
Speaker 2: Before we end, Caroline and Kristen discussed attachment wounds and
Speaker 2: parts work, which are just two approaches to dealing with
Speaker 2: trauma responses. Kristin recommended that Caroline seek out further evidence
Speaker 2: based trauma therapy practices such as EMDR, neurofeedback, brainspotting, and
Speaker 2: internal family systems work. It's critical for anyone seeking therapeutic
Speaker 2: care to work with a license professional. If you want
Speaker 2: more from Kristen, go to her website Kristensnowden dot com.
Speaker 2: We've linked in the show notes. On the next episode
Speaker 2: of Betrayal, we discuss how grief is a marathon.
Speaker 4: Well, this is the first year that we have actually
Speaker 4: gotten into steak my brother just across the finish line.
Speaker 2: On Thank you for listening to Betrayal season four. If
Speaker 2: you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
Speaker 2: email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal
Speaker 2: Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to
Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H.
Speaker 2: Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates.
Speaker 1: One way to.
Speaker 2: Support the series is by subscribing to our show on
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star reviews
Speaker 2: help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is
Speaker 2: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,
Speaker 2: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced
Speaker 2: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal is hosted and
Speaker 2: produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden,
Speaker 2: also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Fetterman. Our associate
Speaker 2: producer is Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry
Speaker 2: and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard, Audio editing
Speaker 2: and mixing by Matt Alvecchio, editing by Tanner Robbins, Special
Speaker 2: thanks to voice actor John Blomo, and special thanks to
Speaker 2: Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Speaker 2: Music library provided by my Music and For more podcasts
Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever
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