WEBVTT - S4: E8 — Solace 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:01.240 Hey guys. 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:03.920 Before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:07.320 looking for news stories of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series, 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:11.280 which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal and feel 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.160 ready to share your story, now is a great time 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.599 to reach out. Email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:26.200 dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.480 It is not to your detriment that you have loved 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:33.080 and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person. You, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:38.479 unfortunately just got an unhealthy, really sick person who was 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.479 so invested in keeping you out of his whole double 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.479 life that he was living and used every tactic in 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.479 the world to keep you blind to that. 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.520 I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:18.240 eight Solace. Caroline Brega has been dealing with the fallout 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.959 of her husband's betrayal for more than three years. When 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:26.400 you've been married for half your life, the recovery is long, unpredictable. 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.440 At the beginning, it's just about getting through the next hour, 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.640 the next twenty four hours, being able to get yourself 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.480 to work or show up for your kids. Now, Caroline 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:40.760 is reaching the point where she can start to truly 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.039 process and heal from that experience. We connected Caroline with 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.720 Kristen Snowden, an expert in betrayal, trauma, and infidelity. She's 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.440 a licensed marriage and Family therapist in the state of 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.000 California and a certified life coach. 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:02.360 My specialty is helping couples and individuals navigate relationship crises 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.680 that have been brought upon by uncovering an unknown addiction 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:10.360 or infidelity, and that's either chemical addictions or process addictions 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.400 such as sex, peorn love addiction. 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.320 Addiction is a loaded term and one we want to 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.920 use carefully. Most of us know someone who struggled with 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:27.560 a chemical addiction, like one to alcohol or opioids. Process 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:32.240 addictions are different. They involve compulsive behaviors that activate the 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:36.800 brain's reward system. The DSM five, the official manual clinicians 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:41.320 used to diagnose mental health disorders, only recognizes one process 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:47.359 addiction that's gambling disorder. Others, like sex addiction, remain controversial 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:52.560 and are not officially classified as mental health diagnoses. This 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.360 is not to say the experience of sex addiction isn't 0:02:55.400 --> 0:03:01.280 real and valid, but without a diagnostic criteria can be misunderstood. 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:07.080 Misused or even abused. Joel began using the word addiction 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.000 to describe his behavior, but only after he was caught. 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.440 You'll remember the text he sent Caroline from rehab. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:21.440 Low self esteem, self hatred, depression, anxiety, addiction all contributed 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:25.160 to my behavior and actions, saying people would not do 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.760 what I did, but I literally was not in my 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:28.480 right mind. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:31.800 We don't know if Joel has been diagnosed with any 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.720 addictions to substances, but because Joel referred to himself as 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.200 an addict, you'll hear Kristen and Caroline use that term 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.120 in this conversation. They're also using it as a shorthand 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:49.080 for his compulsive and destructive behavior. Kristen started one of 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.880 the first dual diagnosis treatment programs for people with both 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:57.240 chemical addictions and sexual acting out behaviors, but in the 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.400 last ten years, her focus has shifted to helping betrayed partners. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.880 She runs groups for those that have been betrayed, and 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.920 she has a YouTube channel where she shares free resources 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.240 for those navigating relationship crises. 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:16.880 I want betrayed partners to have that specialty training and 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.000 education that they deserve that I think is going to 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.440 help launch them into the ability to heal from these traumas. 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.200 When Kristen first meets with new clients, she often begins 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:29.760 with this metaphor. 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.040 Something that we do all day, every day is we drive. 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.080 And what we do is we're essentially taking for granted 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.360 that everybody else around us is going to follow the 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.559 rules of the road, and that is what we're doing. 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.480 When we're in these long term relationships with our partners, 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.080 we have very direct, spoken rules but also unspoken rules 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.120 that we're going to give each other the benefit of doubt, 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.400 We're going to do our best to do no harm. 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.440 We're going to follow the rules and move along in 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:02.840 the correct way together. And then all of a sudden, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.120 when you uncover that your partner is capable of lying, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.680 sneaking around. It is as if someone is asking you 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.840 every day to just go do the basic things like 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:14.880 just go drive with the grocery store, just go drop 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.960 your kids off. But oh, by the way, no one's 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.120 going to follow the rules of the road. Hope you 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:20.600 make it there. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:21.040 Okay. 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:26.200 Suddenly the drive, the simple drive that you took for 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:33.880 granted every single day, becomes the most terrifying, hypervigilant, soul 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.320 sucking experience because you don't know what's coming at you, 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.680 and that is like the best metaphor I have to 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.799 help people understand what these betrayed partners are going through 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.120 from the minute they find out what their partner's done 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.920 and onward. 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:55.120 Kristin often works with people like Caroline, people who've been 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.400 left to pick up the pieces in the wake of 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:58.640 their partner's betrayal. 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:04.840 She's my qui essential client. Unfortunately, I've seen hundreds of her, 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:06.080 if not thousands. 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.200 Kristin met with Caroline several times over the course of 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.880 this season. With their permission, we'd like to share excerpts 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:17.680 from those sessions with you. Caroline started with the problem 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.279 she confronts often in her life, feeling on edge. In 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.080 the city she calls home, all she sees are places 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:29.520 where Joel arranged his meetups. These are landmarks that memorialize 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:30.600 her husband's affairs. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.320 There's really only one way to drive to our local airport, 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.760 and I hate the drive. I hate it. All I 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.760 can do is think about this is where he did 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:42.680 this at, This is where he did this at. How 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:44.520 many people did he meet in this area? How many 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.080 times did this occur? Like it is just repetitive in 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:48.800 me how do you. 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.359 Feel in your body when you're driving to the airport 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:55.000 and you're crossing all those triggering places and spaces. What 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:55.800 does it feel like. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:07:01.280 It could be the coldest morning in Colorado, and I 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:05.080 will start sweating when I reach that area of town. 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.720 I will have my heat completely turned off. I'll need 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.480 to crack the window, and the nausea starts, and my 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.400 brain just starts churning. This is the area where he 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.000 did this? How many times did he meet someone? It 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.600 will just continuously churn and I'll keep playing it and 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.320 replaying it and replaying it even after I park, when 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.800 I'm bringing my luggage up, when I'm checking in, it 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:34.960 just continuously plays in me. The piece of it that 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:40.440 is so aggravating is that I have no control over it. 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:47.560 I'm still reliving it every time I drive that route. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.320 I think that I am a strong female, but I 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.120 will tell you that if you want to test someone's 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.160 ability to stay strong, go through this and have to 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:57.960 live it every day. 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.400 Right. That's why I always think it's interesting. But there's 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.560 really no such thing in the diagnostic manuals that categorizes 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:12.120 betrayal as a form of TRAUMADTSD, doesn't really fall in 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.880 that because you know, it has to be life threatening event, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.960 and people don't consider these things to be life threatening. 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.480 But I mean, I can imagine you feel like you 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.600 have PTSD symptoms. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.800 I know I do, and I think it's evidenced by 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:32.160 the fact that my kids and I say, unless it 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.240 was an absolute life threatening event, we will never call 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:36.040 law enforcement. 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:41.800 M I'm sorry. It's like a systemic betrayal, similar to 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:46.040 people who've been betrayed to by the like religious organizations 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.760 like abused by the people in charge, and then shunned 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:54.599 and ignored and never validated or supported by their community. 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.199 You know, I pride myself in being someone who can 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:03.080 compartmentalize and keep myself together, but it is a struggle 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.400 to keep every emotion in and keep my shoulders back 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.600 and my head high. Constantly running into his colleagues. 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.600 What's the story you're telling yourself about what they are 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:16.000 experiencing when they see you. 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:22.040 When life blew up. Initially to me and my kids, 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.000 Joel said it was my fault. It was my fault 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.360 because we weren't having sex as much as he wanted to. 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.440 I wasn't doing things that he wanted to sexually like 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.280 he pointed the finger at me. And this is also 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.720 the narrative that he started telling all of his employment. 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.600 They're thinking to their selves, we know what Joel did. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.439 We've been told that you're the reason why this happened. 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.200 He had to go seek sex elsewhere because he wasn't 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.360 getting it at home. He needed to go find it 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:51.880 around the community. This is all your fault. You caused 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.439 him to lose his job. In one of his disciplinary 0:09:55.520 --> 0:10:00.560 write ups, it actually says Joel disc us that he 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.480 was having problems with his wife at home. It's like 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:08.439 everyone heard this narrative, but me. I didn't know this. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.720 In my world, we were living this really blessed, utopian life. 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.319 I didn't know that this was being put on blast 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:18.760 about me. 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.880 Yeah, what is that like? On top of the shame 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.760 that you just generally experienced from being betrayed by your 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.000 intimate partner and finding out that he's led this whole 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.880 double life, what is that like to have this community 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:41.000 where they're blaming you or using your parent marital life 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:42.320 to justify his behavior. 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:49.240 It just continued to involve this constant nausea and chaos 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:53.920 in my life. And to have to have this pretend 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.200 face and this very low affect to not show emotion 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:04.880 was miserable, and it definitely doesn't feel sustainable to continue 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.440 to try to have this pretend normal at work. It 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.120 doesn't feel good to have this pretend normal at community 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.760 events where I see police officers who stare at me 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.040 and my kids when we're together. My daughter was in 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.960 a car accident her junior year, shortly after he blew 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.600 up our lives. About a month and a week later, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:30.360 she was te boned and hit by a driver. And 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.199 when I went out to the scene to see her, 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.800 thank god, she was okay. But even in that moment, 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.400 cops were pulling up to the scene, and I could 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.120 hear them. They didn't even care that we were there, 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.880 what we had just gone through. I could hear them, 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.200 Oh my god, there's Kern's wife and his kid. Oh 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.560 my god, can you believe that he's in rehab right now? 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:58.040 I could hear them. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:58.400 In like your moment of raw vulnerability. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.199 Yes, I am for my daughter. I am terrified seeing 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:06.600 how she looks. She's just an absolute shock. Even in 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.200 that moment it's thrown in my face. 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.520 It must be overwhelming, especially when part of your trauma 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:18.240 has been being lied to. I can imagine it being 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:22.280 just even more frustrating, to say the least, that you 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.480 continue to be surrounded by a community that keeps telling 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:29.560 you that you're to blame. There is such a healing 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.640 and release of trauma that happens when a community can 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.240 share in validating that what happened was not okay, and 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.400 that was scary and that rocked our world. And I 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:44.440 just I'm so sad that you've been denied. I'm hearing 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.400 that you live in a community where there's just a 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.560 lack of empathy for what you and the kids have 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:52.200 gone through. 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:55.640 I think it's not only a lack of empathy. I 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.080 think it is the belief of a false narrative. 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.600 What do you tell you about why they can kind 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:06.280 of be so non empathetic, why they're so invested in 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.240 holding on to Joel's story. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.800 Hear me out because I'm going to sound very self 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:18.400 loathing while I say this. I did it. I believe Joel. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.720 I mean I initially carried this guilt when he looked 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:25.680 at me and he said, well, we weren't having sex enough. 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:27.880 You were paying more attention to the kids than you 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.640 did to me. I didn't feel like you loved me, 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.000 And in the moments of it, I doubted myself. I thought, 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.520 oh my god, were we having sex enough? Did I 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.120 show you that I loved you? Did I pay more 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.400 attention to the kids than you? I mean, he got 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.920 in my head when he was excusing his behaviors until 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.320 I know the extent of what he did. When it 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.839 became reality, I was able to let go some of 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:54.679 that guilt and that burden. But this was someone who 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.560 was extremely well liked within the department. You know, he 0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.760 was friendly and got along with people, and he supported 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:04.000 his own and all of these things. My husband lived 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.520 a double life. And in my gut, I believe that 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.800 he is an extremely intelligent man, and I do think 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.120 that he knew as things were progressing he was about 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.120 ready to be caught and he needed to start shifting 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.400 the blame or provide excuses and people believe him. 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:29.360 When betrayal happens in a relationship, in a marriage, the 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.200 vulnerability of the fact that that can happen to anybody, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.200 that you can be blindsided by someone you trust in 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.840 love and they can hurt you the most. I think 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:42.000 that hits too close to home for most people. So 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.480 they have to package it up in a way that 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:49.560 makes you different than them. You know, it's scary to 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.520 think that my partner can just go out have a 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.360 bunch of sex with somebody else, lie sninak around, keep 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.440 doing it. If I really sat with the vulnerability of 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.680 that would just lock me up, Like the powerlessness of 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.720 that is just too scary. As a defense mechanism, I 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.320 have to make your story different so I can go 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.120 back and carry on in my life. So the story 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.720 has to be Caroline didn't give him enough sex. Well, 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.400 I give my partner enough sex, and that just others 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:22.960 her in a way where it allows me to just 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.080 not feel the vulnerability. Do you get what I'm trying 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:25.440 to say? 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.160 It makes sense, like a lot of sense. 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:38.400 It's just in this realm of infidelities where there seems 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:42.680 to be this really strong focus on the betrayed partner. 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.360 No one blames the wife or the spouse or a 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:51.160 partner for someone's heroin addiction, except for someone's gambling addiction. 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.800 There's just something about the fact that in people's brains 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.600 they want to make it a relational problem when it 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:05.480 is not a relational problem. What I always say is 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:11.000 it's like this additional trauma and abuse that happens, that will, 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.400 as you're saying, shut a betrayed partner down, stop them 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.240 from wanting to share their story, cause them to feel 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.240 even more isolated after they've already been betrayed by the 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:24.360 person they've made themselves most exposed to. Why are we 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.000 talking about, like, well, did you have sex with them enough? 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:41.360 Were you nagging? I mean it does nothing but harm. 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.840 Caroline is talking to Kristen Snowden, a licensed therapist and 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.560 life coach who specializes in betrayal trauma. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:17:01.280 The other night, I was at a very popular brewery 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.160 and I walk in and I'm standing in line, and 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.280 I hear Caroline, and I turn and I look and 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.920 it's one of Joel's best friends. When Joel got in trouble, 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.480 he turned to this person and he goes over, opens 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.400 his arm, gives me a hug. I did like one 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.359 of these where I just kept my arms straight down, 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.440 you know, like I don't want you to physically touch me. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.040 Like you had a physiological response to him. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.560 Yes, we don't need to have physical contact. I do 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.040 not want to hug you. We are not friends. I 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:33.439 know what you have said about me. 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:34.040 You know. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.479 I just kept my arms straight down, very stiff, and 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.119 he was like, how are you And I just stopped 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.320 him and I said, you know what, I know all 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.119 of the horrible things you have said about me and 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.960 the blame you have placed on me, there's no need 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:52.399 for us to talk. And he looked at me and 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.760 he kind of got this smirk and he said, okay. 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.399 But for the first time in a long time, it 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.439 felt empowering to not take it, to not engage in it. 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.600 What do you think the difference was? Why now? 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:11.919 I think the difference at this point is that I 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.440 know I'm not alone. For a long time, I felt 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:17.920 like this could never happen to anyone else, and this 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:24.800 almost shame and guilt and the personification of Joel's actions 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:28.560 onto me and my kids just filled me with embarrassment. 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.200 You know, that was one of the things that drew 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.919 me in with the podcast, as hearing, oh my god, 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.760 like this happened to someone else. Since everything happened, I 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.520 feel like in my past life I was this pretty 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:45.800 confident person, but since my ex husband's secret life had 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.360 been revealed to me, I mean, it just really put 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.840 a weight of constant insecurity on me. Just constant and 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.879 it's been a really long time since I have been 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.920 able to keep my head up really long time. 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.800 It's common for us to feel less confident and standing 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.000 in our own reality when we're surrounded by people who 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:15.639 are questioning our reality. There was so many elements where 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.200 you were saying, look, this is you're in a different location. 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.359 Where are you? No, you're crazy, No, I don't know 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.520 what's wrong with you. So you were in a constant 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:29.880 environment with him where he was questioning your reality, and 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.080 then after he left, you were living in this world 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:38.240 where everyone was kind of validating his narrative and not 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:43.880 extending grace and empathy towards you in a very very 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.520 painful way. So I could completely understand why you've struggled 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:53.080 so much to stand in your confidence. It's so traumatizing 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.840 to have someone dismantle your instincts and intuition and question 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:02.359 your reality, question your sanity. It is a huge casualty 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:03.160 of betrayal. 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:04.320 Yes, spot on. 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.400 I always say like, you've been traumatized, and now you're 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:15.000 responsible for trying your best to mitigate those unfortunate circumstances. 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.280 Right that you now have a traumatized body, you're gonna 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:21.439 have trauma triggers, trauma responses. It gets really confusing, like 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.399 is this a red flag or is this like a 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.080 trauma response, a trauma trigger that's coming up for me. 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.119 And so it's just really important to have a couple 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:33.760 people in your community where you can bounce this off 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.600 of and validate. Am I crazy? Because it's just the 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:43.080 most benign things you find yourself questioning. That is one 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.119 of the healing pathways after being betrayed. You can't do 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:53.480 it on your own, no, And so it's this counterintuitive thing, right. 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.000 People come to me because their lives have been devastated 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.920 and turn upside down because they have opened their heart 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.879 and their life to a person and they have just 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.040 been lied to and their whole lives destroy their families 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:09.520 destroyed because of it. And one of my treatment processes 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.280 is to say, well, and now you need to go 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:17.040 to a group, and most understandably so they say, hell, no, 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:20.280 I've exposed myself enough. 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.119 I'm popping in here for just a second. Caroline, like 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:29.679 many people who've been betrayed, was initially resistant to group workshops, 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:33.159 but eventually she decided to give them a shot and 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.240 she joined a group. Kristin runs for betrayed partners. 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:39.240 One of the big pieces of why I fell in 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:46.960 that category was because it's hard to believe there are 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.520 evil humans out there that would do the same thing 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:57.600 to other innocent people. And then being in that group hearing, 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:02.240 oh my god, this happened to all of you. Yeah, 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.680 and replace my name with your name, and our stories 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:08.680 are almost parallel to each other. I mean, we walked 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:12.959 a very similar path. You feel so alone though at 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:16.000 the beginning when it happens, like this could not happen 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:20.240 to anyone else, especially when you're surrounded with friends and 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:24.600 family members who assumedly are living these very healthy marriages 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:28.880 and healthy relationships, and like you're just on this little 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.200 island by yourself that no one else would really understand. 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.160 Yeah, and what has it been like to be in 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:41.520 a group where you're around several women who are betrayed 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.280 partners of sex addicts, And I mean, what's that been 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:46.720 like to hear all those stories? 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.240 There's been I mean a great sense of camaraderie, definitely 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:53.320 some validation. 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.280 And I always think it's very interesting. One of the 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:00.240 miss about betrayal trauma is we think that this the 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.840 person that got betrayed, the person that got bamboozled and 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:06.119 lied to is this passive person that just kind of 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:10.640 gets fooled. But so often I run into betrayed partners, 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:14.159 and in every other facet of their life, they're extremely 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:16.879 clear about what they want, what they need, and it 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:22.639 just shows the manipulation power that their attic partners. 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:25.720 Use one hundred percent accurate. 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:30.160 You've seen in these groups, these phenomenal women who are 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:33.880 just so smart, have these careers, had these lives, had 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:37.000 these great children, and then just got side swiped and 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:41.879 blindsided by their partner's behavior that they had no idea. 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:46.920 And these betrayed partners often are so busy, in fact, 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.040 living their lives, trying to be the best parents they 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:51.960 can be, be the best partners that they can be, 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:56.640 and don't even realize that people can lie and deceive 0:23:56.920 --> 0:23:59.960 and commit illegal acts. All of those are so far 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.600 off their radar. That is why they are kind of 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:08.399 victimized over such a long period of time. That is 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:13.360 why they are often so primed to let their partners 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:18.320 lies kind of trump their own instincts and intuition. Yes, yes, 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:21.760 And I'm just gonna say, you're a beautiful woman, you're 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:24.560 well spoken, you're educated, you have this career, you have 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:29.760 these kids, and it just starts taking stories off of 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:32.359 people's lists, Like they can't write the story that you 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:35.880 were unattractive, or you were crazy, or you were money hungry. 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:38.400 I mean, because you're just You're none of those things. 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:44.640 You're a high functioning, attractive, loving, stable human being that 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:51.760 happen to marry an unhealthy person and you are still 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:53.320 suffering the consequences. 0:24:54.600 --> 0:25:00.000 Thank you for saying that. That makes me like, thank you, 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.640 thank you. Yeah, I know. 0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.720 It is not to your detriment that you have loved 0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:13.439 and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person. 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:19.960 You unfortunately just got the person who was so invested 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:23.439