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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, we have some exciting news to share. ABC

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Speaker 1: News Studios has turned Caroline Brega's story from Betrayal season

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Speaker 1: four into a docu series. You'll get to meet the

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Speaker 1: people involved, you'll hear from people who have never spoken before,

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Speaker 1: and you get to see where this story took place.

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Speaker 1: We are so proud and excited to share it with

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Speaker 1: you all. Stream Betrayal Dirty Secrets now on Hulu or

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Speaker 1: Hulu for Disney Plus. Hey, guys, Before we get into

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Speaker 1: the episode, a quick note, we're looking for news stories

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Speaker 1: of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series, which returns in August.

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Speaker 1: If you've experienced betrayal and feel ready to share your story,

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Speaker 1: now is a great time to reach out. Email us

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Speaker 1: at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod

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Speaker 1: at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: It is not to your detriment that you have loved

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Speaker 2: and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person.

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Speaker 2: You unfortunately just got an unhealthy release, sick person who

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Speaker 2: was so invested in keeping you out of his whole

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Speaker 2: double life that he was living and used every tactic

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Speaker 2: in the world to keep you blind to that.

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode eight, Solace.

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Speaker 1: Caroline Brega has been dealing with the fallout of her

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Speaker 1: husband's betrayal for more than three years. When you've been

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Speaker 1: married for half your life, the recovery is long, unpredictable.

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Speaker 1: At the beginning, it's just about getting through the next hour,

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Speaker 1: the next twenty four hours, being able to get yourself

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Speaker 1: to work or show up for your kids. Now, Caroline

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Speaker 1: is reaching the point where she can start to truly

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Speaker 1: process and heal from that experience. We connected Caroline with

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Speaker 1: Kristin Snowden, an expert in betrayal, trauma, and infidelity. She's

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Speaker 1: a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of

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Speaker 1: California and a certified life coach.

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Speaker 2: My specialty is helping couples and individuals navigate relationship crises

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Speaker 2: that have been brought upon by uncovering an unknown addiction

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Speaker 2: or infidelity. And that's either chemical addictions or process addictions

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Speaker 2: such as sex, porn, love addiction.

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Speaker 1: Addiction is a loaded term and one we want to

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Speaker 1: use carefully. Most of us know someone who struggled with

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Speaker 1: a chemical addiction, like one to alcohol or opioids. Process

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Speaker 1: addictions are different. They involve compulsive behaviors that activate the

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Speaker 1: brain's reward system. The DSM five, the official manual clim

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Speaker 1: Nians used to diagnose mental health disorders, only recognizes one

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Speaker 1: process addiction, that's gambling disorder. Others, like sex addiction, remain

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Speaker 1: controversial and are not officially classified as mental health diagnoses.

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Speaker 1: This is not to say the experience of sex addiction

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Speaker 1: isn't real and valid, but without a diagnostic criteria, the

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Speaker 1: label can be misunderstood, misused, or even abused. Joel began

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Speaker 1: using the word addiction to describe his behavior, but only

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Speaker 1: after he was caught. You'll remember the text he sent

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Speaker 1: Caroline from rehab.

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Speaker 3: Low self esteem, self hatred, depression, anxiety, addiction all contributed

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Speaker 3: to my behavior and actions, saying people would not do

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Speaker 3: what I did, but I literally was not in my

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Speaker 3: right mind.

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Speaker 1: We don't know if Joel has been diagnosed with any

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Speaker 1: addictions to substances, but because Joel referred to himself as

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Speaker 1: an addict, you'll hear Kristin and Caroline use that term

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Speaker 1: in this conversation. They're also using it as a shorthand

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Speaker 1: for his compulsive and destructive behavior. Kristin started one of

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Speaker 1: the first dual diagnosis treatment programs for people with both

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Speaker 1: chemical addictions and sexual acting out behaviors. But in the

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Speaker 1: last ten years, her focus has shifted to helping betrayed partners.

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Speaker 1: She runs groups for those that have been betrayed, and

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Speaker 1: she has a YouTube channel where she shares free resources

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Speaker 1: for those navigating relationship crises.

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Speaker 2: I want betrayed partners to have that specialty training and

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Speaker 2: education that they deserve that I think is going to

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Speaker 2: help launch them into the ability to heal from these traumas.

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Speaker 1: When Kristen first meets with new clients, she often begins

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Speaker 1: with this metaphor.

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Speaker 2: Something that we do all day, every day is we drive.

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Speaker 2: And what we do is we're essentially taking for granted

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Speaker 2: that everybody else around us is going to follow the

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Speaker 2: rules of the road, and that is what we're doing.

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Speaker 2: When we're in these long term relationships with our partners.

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Speaker 2: We have very direct, spoken rules but also unspoken rules

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Speaker 2: that we're going to give each other the benefit of

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Speaker 2: the doubt, We're going to do our best to do

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Speaker 2: no harm. We're going to follow the rules and move

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Speaker 2: along in the correct way together. And then all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, when you uncover that your partner is capable

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Speaker 2: of lying, sneaking around. It is as if someone is

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Speaker 2: asking you every day to just go do the basic things,

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Speaker 2: like just go drive at the grocery store, just go

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Speaker 2: drop your kids off. But oh, by the way, no

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Speaker 2: one's going to follow the rules of the road. Hope

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Speaker 2: you make it there, okay. Suddenly the drive, the simple

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Speaker 2: drive that you took for granted every single day, becomes

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Speaker 2: the most terrifying, hyper vigilant, soul sucking experience because you

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Speaker 2: don't know what's coming at you. And that is like

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Speaker 2: the best metaphor I have to help people understand what

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Speaker 2: these betrayed partners are going through from the minute they

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Speaker 2: find out what their partner's done and onward.

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Speaker 1: Kristin often works with people like Caroline, people who've been

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Speaker 1: left to pick up the pieces in the wake of

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Speaker 1: their partner's betrayal.

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Speaker 2: She's my quintessential client. Unfortunately I've seen hundreds of her,

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Speaker 2: if not thousands.

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Speaker 1: Kristin met with Caroline several times over the course of

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Speaker 1: this season. With their permission, we'd like to share excerpts

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Speaker 1: from those sessions with you. Caroline started with the problem

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Speaker 1: she confronts often in her life, feeling on edge in

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Speaker 1: the city she calls home. All she sees are places

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Speaker 1: where Joel arranged his meetups. These are landmarks that memorialize

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Speaker 1: her husband's affairs.

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Speaker 4: There's really only one way to drive to our local airport,

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Speaker 4: and I hate the drive. I hate it. All I

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Speaker 4: can do is think about this is where he did

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Speaker 4: this at. This is where he did this at. How

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Speaker 4: many people did he meet in this area? How many

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Speaker 4: times did this occur? Like it is just repetitive in me.

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Speaker 2: How do you feel in your body when you're driving

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Speaker 2: to the airport and you're crossing all those triggering places

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Speaker 2: and spaces, What does it feel like?

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Speaker 4: It could be the coldest morning and Colorado, and I

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Speaker 4: will start sweating when I reach that area of town.

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Speaker 4: I will have my heat completely turned off. I'll need

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Speaker 4: to crack the window, and the nausea starts, and my

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Speaker 4: brain just starts churning. This is the area where he

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Speaker 4: did this. How many times did he meet someone? It

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Speaker 4: will just continuously churn and I'll keep playing it and

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Speaker 4: replaying it and replaying it, even after I park, when

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Speaker 4: I'm bringing my luggage up, when I'm checking in, it

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Speaker 4: just continuously plays in me. The piece of it that

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Speaker 4: is so aggravating is that I have no control over it.

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Speaker 4: I'm still reliving it every time I drive that route.

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Speaker 4: I think that I am a strong female, but I

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Speaker 4: will tell you that if you want to test someone's

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Speaker 4: ability to stay strong, go through this and have to

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Speaker 4: live it every day.

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Speaker 2: Right. That's why I always think it's interesting. But there's

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Speaker 2: really no such thing in the diagnostic manuals that categorizes

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Speaker 2: betrayal as a form of TRAUMADTSD doesn't really fall in

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Speaker 2: that because you know, it has to be life threatening event,

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Speaker 2: and people don't consider these things to be life threatening.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, I could imagine you feel like you

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Speaker 2: have PTSD symptoms.

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Speaker 4: I know I do, and I think it's evidenced by

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Speaker 4: the fact that my kids and I say, unless it

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Speaker 4: was an absolute life threatening event, we will never call

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Speaker 4: law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: Hmm, I'm sorry. It's like a systemic betrayal, similar to

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Speaker 2: people who've been betrayed to by the like religious organizations like,

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Speaker 2: abused by the people in charge, and then shunned and

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Speaker 2: ignored and never validated or supported by their community.

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Speaker 4: You know, I pride myself in being someone who can

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Speaker 4: compartmentalize and keep myself together, but it is a struggle

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Speaker 4: to keep every emotion in and keep my shoulders back

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Speaker 4: and my head high, constantly running into his colleagues.

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Speaker 2: What's the story you're telling yourself about what they are

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Speaker 2: experiencing when they see you.

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Speaker 4: When life blew up. Initially to me and my kids,

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Speaker 4: Joel said, it was my fault. It was my fault

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Speaker 4: because we weren't having sex as much as he wanted to.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't doing things that he wanted to sexually, Like

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Speaker 4: he pointed the finger at me. And this is also

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Speaker 4: the narrative that he started telling all of his employment.

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Speaker 4: They're thinking to theirselves, we know what Joel did. We've

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Speaker 4: been told that you're the reason why this happened. He

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Speaker 4: had to go seek sex elsewhere because he wasn't getting

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Speaker 4: it at home. He needed to go find it around

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Speaker 4: the community. This is all your fault. You caused him

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Speaker 4: to lose his job. In one of his disciplinary write ups,

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Speaker 4: it actually says Joel discussed that he was having problems

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Speaker 4: with his wife at home. It's like everyone heard this narrative,

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Speaker 4: but me. I didn't know this. In my world, we

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Speaker 4: were living this really blessed, utopian life. I didn't know

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Speaker 4: that this was being put on blast about me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is that like, on top of the shame

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Speaker 2: that you just generally experienced from being betrayed by your

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Speaker 2: intimate partner and finding out that he's led this whole

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Speaker 2: double life, What is that like to have this community

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Speaker 2: where they're they're blaming you or using your parent marital

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Speaker 2: life to justify his behavior.

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Speaker 4: It just continued to involve this constant nausea and chaos

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Speaker 4: in my life, and to have to have this pretend

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Speaker 4: face and this very low affect to not show emotion

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Speaker 4: was miserable and it definitely doesn't feel sustainable to continue

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Speaker 4: to try to have this pretend normal at work. It

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Speaker 4: doesn't feel good to have this pretend normal at community

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Speaker 4: events where I see police officers who stare at me

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Speaker 4: and my kids when we're together. My daughter was in

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Speaker 4: a car accident her junior year, shortly after he blew

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Speaker 4: up our lives. About a month and a week later,

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Speaker 4: she was te boned and hit by a driver. And

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Speaker 4: when I went out to the scene to see her,

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Speaker 4: thank god, she was okay. But even in that moment,

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Speaker 4: cops were pulling up to the scene and I could

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Speaker 4: hear them they didn't even care that we were there,

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Speaker 4: what we had just gone through. I could hear them,

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, there's Kern's wife and his kid. Oh

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Speaker 4: my god, can you believe that he's in rehab right now?

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Speaker 4: I could hear them.

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Speaker 2: In like your moment of raw vulnerability.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I am terrified for my daughter. I am terrified

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Speaker 4: seeing how she looks. She's just an absolute shock. Even

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Speaker 4: in that moment it's thrown in my face.

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Speaker 2: It must be overwhelming, especially when part of your trauma

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Speaker 2: has been being lied to. I can imagine it being

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Speaker 2: just even more frustrating, to say the least, that you

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Speaker 2: continue to be surrounded by a community that keeps telling

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Speaker 2: you that you're to blame. There's such a healing and

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Speaker 2: release of trauma that happens when a community can share

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Speaker 2: in validating that what happened was not okay, was scary,

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Speaker 2: and that rocked our world. And I just I'm so

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Speaker 2: sad that you've been denied. I'm hearing that you live

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Speaker 2: in a community where there's just a lack of empathy

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Speaker 2: for what you and the kids have gone through.

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Speaker 4: I think it's not only a lack of empathy. I

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Speaker 4: think it is the belief of a false narrative.

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Speaker 2: What do you tell yourself about why they can kind

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Speaker 2: of be so non empathetic, why they're so invested in

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Speaker 2: holding on to Joel's story?

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Speaker 4: Hair me out because I'm going to sound very self

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Speaker 4: loathing while I say this. I did it. I believe Joel.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I initially carried this guilt when he looked

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Speaker 4: at me and he said, well, we weren't having sex enough.

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Speaker 4: You were paying more attention to the kids than you

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Speaker 4: did to me. I didn't feel like you loved me.

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Speaker 4: And in the moments of it, I doubted myself. I thought,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, were we having sex enough I show

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Speaker 4: you that I loved you? Did I pay more attention

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Speaker 4: to the kids than you? I mean, he got in

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Speaker 4: my head when he was excusing his behaviors until I

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Speaker 4: know the extent of what he did. When it became reality,

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Speaker 4: I was able to let go some of that guilt

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Speaker 4: and that burden. But this was someone who was extremely

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Speaker 4: well liked within the department. You know, he was friendly

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Speaker 4: and got along with people, and he supported his officers

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Speaker 4: and all of these things. My husband lived a double life,

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Speaker 4: and in my gut, I believe that he is an

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Speaker 4: extremely intelligent man. And I do think that he knew

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Speaker 4: as things were progressing he was about ready to be

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Speaker 4: caught and he needed to start shifting the blame or

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Speaker 4: provide excuses and people believe him.

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Speaker 2: When betrayal happens in a relationship, in a marriage, the

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Speaker 2: vulnerability of the fact that that can happen to anybody,

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Speaker 2: that you can be blindsided by someone you trust in

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Speaker 2: love and they can hurt you the most. I think

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Speaker 2: that hits too close to home for most people, so

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Speaker 2: they have to package it up in a way that

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Speaker 2: makes you different than them. You know, it's scary to

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Speaker 2: think that my partner can just go out have a

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Speaker 2: bunch of sex with somebody else, lie, snink around, keep

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Speaker 2: doing it. If I really sat with the vulnerability of that,

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Speaker 2: it would just lock me up, Like the powerlessness of

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Speaker 2: that is just too scary. As a defense mechanism, I

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Speaker 2: have to make your story different so I can go

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Speaker 2: back and carry on in my life. So the story

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Speaker 2: has to be Caroline didn't give him enough sex. Well,

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Speaker 2: I give my partner enough sex, and that just others

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Speaker 2: her in a way where it allows me to just

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Speaker 2: not feel the vulnerability. Do you get what I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to say?

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Speaker 4: It makes sense, like a lot of sense.

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Speaker 2: It's just in this realm of infidelity where there seems

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Speaker 2: to be this really strong focus on the betrayed partner.

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Speaker 2: No one blames the wife or the spouse or a

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Speaker 2: partner for someone's heroin addiction, except for someone's gambling addiction.

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Speaker 2: There's just something about the fact that in people's brains

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Speaker 2: they want to make it a relational problem when it

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Speaker 2: is not a relational problem. What I always say is,

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Speaker 2: it's like this additional trauma and abuse that happens that will,

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Speaker 2: as you're saying, shut a betrayed partner down, stop them

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Speaker 2: from wanting to share their story, cause them to feel

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Speaker 2: even more isolated after they've already been betrayed by the

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Speaker 2: person they've made themselves most exposed to. Why are we

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Speaker 2: talking about, like, well, did you have sex with them enough?

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Speaker 2: Were you nagging? I mean, it does nothing but harm.

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Speaker 1: Caroline is talking to Kristen Snowden, a licensed therapist and

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Speaker 1: life coach who specializes in betrayal trauma.

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Speaker 4: The other night, I was at a very popular brewery

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Speaker 4: and I walk in, and I'm standing in line, and

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Speaker 4: I hear Caroline, and I turn and I look and

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Speaker 4: it's one of Joel's best friends. When Joel got in trouble,

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Speaker 4: he turned to this person and he goes over, opens

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Speaker 4: his arm, gives me a hug. I did like one

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Speaker 4: of these where I just kept my arms straight down,

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Speaker 4: you know, like I don't want you to physically touch me,

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Speaker 4: like you had a physiological response to him. Yes, we

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Speaker 4: don't need to have physical contact. I do not want

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Speaker 4: to hug you. We are not friends. I know what

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Speaker 4: you have said about me, you know. I just kept

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Speaker 4: my arms straight down, very stiff, and he was like,

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Speaker 4: how are you, And I just stopped him and I said,

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Speaker 4: you know what, I know all of the horrible things

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Speaker 4: you have said about me and the blame you have

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Speaker 4: placed on me. There's no need for us to talk.

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Speaker 4: And he looked at me and he kind of got

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Speaker 4: this smirk and he said, okay. But for the first

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Speaker 4: time in a long time, it felt empowering to not

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Speaker 4: take it, to not engage in it.

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Speaker 2: What do you think the difference was? Why? Now?

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Speaker 4: I think the difference at this point is that I

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Speaker 4: know I'm not alone. For a long time, I felt

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Speaker 4: like this could never happen to anyone else, and this

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Speaker 4: almost shame and guilt and the personification of Joel's actions

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Speaker 4: onto me and my kids just filled me with embarrassment.

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Speaker 4: You know. That was one of the things that drew

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Speaker 4: me in with the podcast, as hearing, Oh my god,

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Speaker 4: like this happened to someone else. Since everything happened, I

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Speaker 4: feel like in my past life, I was this pretty

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Speaker 4: confident person, but since my ex husband's secret life had

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Speaker 4: been revealed to me, I mean, it just really put

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Speaker 4: a weight of constant insecurity on me, just constant, and

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Speaker 4: it's been a really long time since I have been

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Speaker 4: able to keep my head up, like a really long time.

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Speaker 2: It's common for us to feel less confident in standing

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Speaker 2: in our own reality when we're surrounded by people who

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Speaker 2: are questioning our reality. There was so many elements where

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Speaker 2: you were saying, look, this is you're in a different location.

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Speaker 2: Where are you? No, you're crazy. No, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what's wrong with you. So you were in a constant

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Speaker 2: environment with him where he was questioning your reality, and

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Speaker 2: then after he left, you were living in this world

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Speaker 2: where everyone was kind of validating his narrative and not

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Speaker 2: extending grace and empathy towards you in a very very

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Speaker 2: painful way. So I could completely understand why you've struggled

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Speaker 2: so much to stand in your confidence. It's so traumatizing

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Speaker 2: to have someone dismantle your instincts and intuition and question

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Speaker 2: your reality, question your sanity. It is a huge casualty

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Speaker 2: of betrayal.

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Speaker 4: Yes, spot on.

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Speaker 2: I always say like, you've been traumatized, and now you're

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Speaker 2: responsible for trying your best to mitigate those unfortunate circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Right that you now have a traumatized body, you're gonna

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Speaker 2: have trauma triggers, trauma responses. It gets really confusing, like

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Speaker 2: is this a red flag or is this like a

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Speaker 2: trauma response, a trauma trigger that's coming up for me?

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Speaker 2: And so it's just really important to have a couple

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Speaker 2: people in your community where you can bounce this off

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Speaker 2: of and validate. Am I crazy? Because it's just the

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Speaker 2: most benign things you find yourself questioning. That is one

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Speaker 2: of the healing pathways after being betrayed. You can't do

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Speaker 2: it on your own, no, And so it's this counterintuitive thing, right,

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Speaker 2: people come to me because their lives have been devastated

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Speaker 2: and turn upside down, because they have opened their heart

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Speaker 2: and their life to a person and they have just

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Speaker 2: been lied to, and their whole lives destroy their families

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Speaker 2: destroyed because of it. And one of my treatment processes

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Speaker 2: is to say, well, and now you need to go

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Speaker 2: to a group, and most understandably so they say, hell no,

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Speaker 2: like I've exposed myself enough.

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Speaker 1: I'm popping in here for just a second. Caroline, like

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Speaker 1: many people who've been betrayed, was initially resistant to group workshops,

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Speaker 1: but eventually she decided to give them a shot and

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Speaker 1: she joined a group Kristen runs for Betrayed Partners.

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Speaker 4: One of the big pieces of why I fell in

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Speaker 4: that category was because it's hard to believe there are

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Speaker 4: evil humans out there that would do the same thing

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Speaker 4: to other innocent people, and then being in that group

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Speaker 4: hearing oh my god, this happened to all of you. Yeah,

353
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Speaker 4: and replace my name with your name, and our stories

354
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Speaker 4: are almost parallel to each other. I mean, we walked

355
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Speaker 4: a very similar path. You feel so alone though at

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Speaker 4: the beginning, when it happens like this could not happen

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Speaker 4: to anyone else, especially when you're surrounded with friends and

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Speaker 4: family members who assumedly are living these very healthy marriages

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Speaker 4: and healthy relationships, and like you're just on this little

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Speaker 4: island by yourself that no one else would really understand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and what has it been like to be in

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Speaker 2: a great group where you're around several women who are

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Speaker 2: betrayed partners of sex addicts, And I mean, what's that

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Speaker 2: been like to hear all those stories?

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Speaker 4: There's been I mean a great sense of camaraderie, definitely

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Speaker 4: some validation.

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Speaker 2: And I always think it's very interesting. One of the

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Speaker 2: mists about betrayal trauma is we think that the person

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Speaker 2: that got betrayed, the person that got bamboozled and lied to,

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Speaker 2: is this passive person that just kind of gets fooled.

371
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Speaker 2: But so often I run into betrayed partners and in

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Speaker 2: every other facet of their life, they're extremely clear about

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Speaker 2: what they want, what they need, and it just shows

374
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Speaker 2: the manipulation power that their attic partners.

375
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Speaker 4: Use one hundred percent accurate.

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Speaker 2: You've seen in these groups, these phenomenal women who are

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Speaker 2: just so smart, have these careers, had these lives, had

378
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Speaker 2: these great children, and then just got side swiped and

379
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 2: blindsided by their partner's behavior that they had no idea.

380
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Speaker 2: And these betrayed partners often are so busy, in fact,

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Speaker 2: living their lives trying to be the best parents they

382
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Speaker 2: can be, be the best partners that they can be,

383
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Speaker 2: and don't even realize that people can lie and deceive

384
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Speaker 2: and commit illegal acts. All of those are so far

385
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Speaker 2: off their radar. That is why they are kind of

386
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Speaker 2: victimized over such a long period of time. That is

387
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Speaker 2: why they are often so primed to let their partners

388
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Speaker 2: lies kind of trump their own instincts and intuition. Yes. Yes,

389
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Speaker 2: And I'm just gonna say, you're a beautiful woman. You're

390
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Speaker 2: well spoken, you're educated, you have this career, you have

391
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Speaker 2: these kids, and it just starts taking stories off of

392
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Speaker 2: people's lists. Like they can't write the story that you

393
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Speaker 2: were unattractive, or you were crazy, or you were money hungry.

394
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Speaker 2: I mean, because you're just You're none of those things.

395
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Speaker 2: You're a high functioning, attractive, loving, stable human being that

396
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Speaker 2: happened to marry an unhealthy person and you are still

397
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Speaker 2: suffering the consequences.

398
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Speaker 4: Thank you for saying that. That makes me like, thank you,

399
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 4: thank you.

400
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it is not to your detriment that

401
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 2: you have loved and made yourself willing to be vulnerable

402
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 2: to another person. You unfortunately just got the person who

403
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: was so invested in keeping you out of his whole

404
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: double life that he was living and used every tactic

405
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Speaker 2: in the world to keep you blind to that.

406
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Speaker 4: I heard from multiple family members and then some of

407
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 4: his subsequent online paramours. He actually used me filing the

408
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 4: divorce as a tool to garner sympathy. His comment to

409
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 4: people was, I was sick and Caroline wouldn't work with me.

410
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Speaker 2: You know, Caroline wouldn't.

411
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Speaker 4: Stay with me and see me through getting the therapy

412
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 4: I needed. You know, she just wanted to run right away.

413
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Speaker 4: That was one of the things that he had told people,

414
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Speaker 4: and it had been used against me of well, if

415
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 4: you really loved him, you would have stuck it out

416
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Speaker 4: with him.

417
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Speaker 2: Well and better. Yet, someone in recovery who's really reckoned

418
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Speaker 2: with the fact that there are consequences to every action

419
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: is understanding that, like, these are the typical consequences that

420
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 2: come with that behavior. I'd made bad choices and I lied,

421
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: and I snuck around, and I broke my vows and

422
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: I exposed my family to a lot of uncertainty and unsafety,

423
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: and it's heartbreaking and horrible, and I wish that wasn't

424
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: the case. I wish I'd changed sooner. Those are words

425
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 2: of someone who's moving through recovery. His words are more

426
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: reflective somebody who's just always constantly building that wall of entitlement.

427
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: I work so hard. I'm entitled to go do this.

428
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: She's always nagging me. I'm entitled to go do this.

429
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 2: I didn't get that promotion. I'm entitled to go do this.

430
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: It's my birthday. I'm titled to go do this. I

431
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: had childhood trauma. I'm entitled to go do this. Those

432
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 2: are dangerous, dangerous people. That is not a sign of

433
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 2: someone who is, as we say in the twelve step world,

434
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: who's humbled and surrendered. Is a sign of someone who's

435
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: always setting up justification, rationale, and entitlement to go out

436
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: and do what they want to do. Because I get

437
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,239
Speaker 2: to they are not thinking about the family system, they

438
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 2: are not thinking about their values and goals. They're not

439
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: definitely not thinking about the true consequences to their behaviors,

440
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 2: and those are all things required for someone to live

441
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: in recovery.

442
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 4: It was funny because you actually said this to melat week.

443
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: I had this moment of like a mind fuck, of

444
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 4: like did I give it up my all? Should I

445
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 4: have stayed in? You know, I made a vow to

446
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 4: stay with him in sickness and in health.

447
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: As a reminder. Caroline made the decision to leave the

448
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: marriage after she got a call from a case manager

449
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: at Joel's rehab facility. The case manager told Caroline that

450
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: Joel was one of the worst cases of sex addiction

451
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: she'd ever seen. He wasn't taking the treatment seriously, and

452
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: when Caroline realized he wasn't doing the work, she decided

453
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: their marriage was irreparable.

454
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 4: And that's why I tried to separate our lives as

455
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 4: quick as I could.

456
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: Caroline reflected back on this moment after hearing the stories

457
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: of other women in Kristen's group, some of whom were

458
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: trying to repair their marriages.

459
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 4: I took pause for a second of seeing these women

460
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 4: really try, and then saying, you know, I think I'm

461
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 4: to the point now where I can walk away because

462
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 4: I've really done everything. I've exhausted all efforts. And I

463
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 4: had a moment of I should have exhausted all efforts.

464
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 4: Why didn't I do that? So this past week two

465
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 4: of them did say it, I wish I would have

466
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 4: left right away, and like after we hung up, I

467
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: just I don't know, I just like cried and cried

468
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 4: and cried just because it was validating. There's so many

469
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 4: things that just you replan your head, like did I

470
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 4: should I could I even though I know I did

471
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 4: the right thing, but hearing someone say I wish I

472
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 4: did that, it just felt validating.

473
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: And like we said that, in any given group, there's

474
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 2: always a story in your head that should I have

475
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: tried harder, should I have left sooner? It is the conundrum. Yeah,

476
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: for sure, you know, having hope that they'll change, and

477
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: then it's the painful coming to that hard conclusion when

478
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 2: you're just like, I don't think this person's ever going

479
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: to change. It's not always the case. I obviously do

480
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: work with couples and addicts in recovery who do pivot

481
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: and change, so I always say it's okay to leave,

482
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: and it's okay to stay. But especially the betrayed partners

483
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: who don't get the closure, the full disclosure of what

484
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: really happened, a full understanding of why they did what

485
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: they did, with a newfound understanding because they've done all

486
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: this work to understand their poor coping skills and what

487
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: led them to do these behaviors and what was really

488
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: going on in their head. It is so hard for

489
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: betrayed partners to move through and heal without that closure.

490
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: We've been listening to Caroline talk with Kristen Snowden about

491
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: healing after betrayal. One of the things Caroline addressed in

492
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: her sessions was how to have healthy relationships going forward.

493
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 4: Every Sunday, a group of friends and I get together

494
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 4: and we do something called Separate Club. I mean, they're

495
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 4: kind of my core group of people, like my trusted circle,

496
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 4: the ones who know the full story. But one of

497
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 4: the things about being in that circle is that they've

498
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 4: seen me on this journey of attempting to move forward,

499
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 4: attempting to garner some semblance of normalcy, and they've seen

500
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 4: me go from very very scared to start dating to

501
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 4: I'm going to rip the band aid off and go

502
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 4: on my first date. Or I think I'll hang out

503
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 4: with this person for a little bit. This person is

504
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 4: not healthier. These qualities are things that I don't want

505
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 4: around me, and I will make excuses very quick to

506
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 4: not let things be serious or feel vulnerable in any way.

507
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 4: And then there's been times where I have thought I

508
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 4: just am starting to feel too close and I'd rather

509
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 4: run before I feel hurt. Well, for the first time,

510
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 4: maybe ever, since this happened, I have been around someone

511
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 4: who is just if you just saw this person. My

512
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 4: joke is that this is like a mother's dream. I mean,

513
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 4: this is someone who is personable and handsome and amazing,

514
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 4: has done good service for the community and to his country.

515
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 4: And there are times where I have been getting ready

516
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 4: to hang out with him and I will literally be

517
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 4: putting them on my makeup and think to myself, you

518
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 4: should run tonight. Tonight's the night you should just go

519
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 4: to dinner and then ghost him, never speak to him again.

520
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 4: And I can't really tell you why. It's just this

521
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 4: feeling of protect yourself now before you feel any more vulnerable. Run.

522
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 4: Nothing has gone wrong, there's been no red flag. There's

523
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 4: nothing except this internal voice in me that says you're

524
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 4: starting to let your guard down, protect yourself. Go go now.

525
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 4: And you know this supper club that I do. I

526
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 4: took a chance and invited him to supper club. He

527
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 4: walked in just a little bit late. Now the excuse

528
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 4: for being late. Something came up with his kids. He

529
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 4: was just running a little bit late. Was it two

530
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 4: hours late?

531
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: No?

532
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 4: An hour late, not even close, nothing like that. But

533
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 4: in that moment, I thought, there it is, there's your reason.

534
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: Do it. Do it now?

535
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 4: Just ridiculous. And one of my friends in supper club

536
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 4: actually said, do not let this be this reason that

537
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 4: you let something good go.

538
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 2: Don't do it.

539
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 4: So I know people see it and I know it,

540
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 4: but I don't know how to let go of that feeling.

541
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, because once you've had your instincts and intuition

542
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: totally destroyed and dismantled, and being told, oh it's night

543
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: outside when the sun is beaming in your eyes, it's

544
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: so common to constantly struggle with the inner compass of

545
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 2: what's safe and what's not safe. When we have these

546
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: wounded parts in us, these really hurt parts because understandably

547
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: so you have been victimized. We often want to push

548
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: them away because we're sitting there and getting ready for

549
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: the date. We should be happy. We tell ourselves what

550
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: we should be right. This is a good person and

551
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 2: it's great that we're dating. As you said, all the

552
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: moms of the world would love him, so we instinctively

553
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: want to push out that scared part that's screaming out.

554
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: But you have to do kind of something that is counterintuitive,

555
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: which is go into that part and learn more and

556
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: it actually is pretty amazing, like the stories that scared

557
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: part will tell you.

558
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a really good challenge.

559
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: And for a woman, let's say, especially a nurturing mom

560
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: like you, it helps with our paradigm shift if we

561
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: view it as like a scared child or even a

562
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: scared teenager and you listen to it like a mom

563
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: because you're not judging it. You're not saying, oh, what's

564
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 2: wrong with you? This guy's great, like stop it? Shut up.

565
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: Instead you can say, like, what's scary? All right? How

566
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: can I help you feel safe? What do we know

567
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: now versus what we're feeling inside? And can we get

568
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 2: through this? And then you and I talked about this before.

569
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: But it's also all about the repair attempt that happens

570
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: once you bring this to the person you're dating. You

571
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: now have taken the minute to be like, this triggered

572
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: the heck out of me. I feel really unsafe. Lateness

573
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: does not just mean being late to me. There's this

574
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 2: amazing repair attempt that can happen in a future relationship

575
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 2: where this time your partner doesn't invalidate you. They don't

576
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: tell you you're crazy. They can say, you know, I'm sorry

577
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: this made you feel scared or upset, I'm sorry this

578
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 2: triggered a history, but let me help you feel safe

579
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: for this time.

580
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 4: So it's interesting that you bring that last part up

581
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 4: because I wanted to be fair, and I actually told

582
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 4: him about the podcast, and so telling him about the

583
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 4: podcast meant that I had to tell him about my history. Okay,

584
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 4: And I admit that I not only told him to

585
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 4: be fair, but I also told him because there was

586
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 4: this piece of me that was like, so you're gonna

587
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 4: hear this, and you're going to see just the insanity

588
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 4: that I've had to experience. Let me see if I

589
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 4: can get you to run. And his response was I

590
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 4: think you're really brave.

591
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: Wow. And how healing was that sentence.

592
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 4: It was just like, oh my god, oh my god,

593
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 4: like thank you. It had been a really long time

594
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 4: to hear someone. I mean, of course, my friends, my

595
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 4: friends have seen and heard and they know the insanity

596
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 4: and the wheel of insanity that I was locked into

597
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: and what I was going through. But for to have

598
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 4: taken pause, listened to me, asked relevant clarifying questions, and

599
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 4: then ended it with I think you're really brave. It

600
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 4: took this weight off of me and to have just

601
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 4: this pause for wait, there is some humanity in.

602
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 2: This that is so healing. I mean, that's why I

603
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: also say why betrayal trauma can never be healed on

604
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: your own, because these are severe attachment wounds. These are

605
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: wounds that came due to others breaking your heart and

606
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 2: betraying you. So a lot of the healing and rewiring

607
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: has to occur in a relationship setting and as you mentioned,

608
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: good friends, family, But your brain has to find new

609
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: evidence that your x's behaviors were more unique and an

610
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: anomaly that you can avoid by taking healthy steps and

611
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: setting up boundaries and keeping other safe people around you

612
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 2: for a checks and balance system. But these are the rule.

613
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 2: He was the exception. These are the rule, and you

614
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: can still feel safe and vulnerable with these people.

615
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 4: It's tough though, it's scary.

616
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 2: Well, and let's like talk to those scared parts for

617
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: a second. What is different, you know, update those scared

618
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 2: parts that were betrayed and blindsided. What is different now?

619
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 4: Well, one of the biggest things is that I'm not

620
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 4: married and I'm not locked into this need to believe

621
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 4: or feel like I needed to have blind trust in

622
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 4: someone that I am my own authority. I can make

623
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 4: my own decisions on that that. Don't need to believe

624
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 4: anyone for anything.

625
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always say I never let someone tell me

626
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: what my reality and my experiences. You never get to

627
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: tell me that. And even if even if I am

628
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 2: inaccurate with like thinking that you're somewhere or that you

629
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: were cheating and you're not cheating, the bottom line is

630
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 2: my experiences. I'm questioning your choices. I'm not feeling safe

631
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: in this relationship. I'm experiencing in congruencies that are making

632
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: me want to pull away. I don't feel respected, I

633
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: don't feel like you're hearing me, And those are all

634
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,439
Speaker 2: important things to be relentless about. I'm supposed to feel

635
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: safe with other people, and so when I don't, it's

636
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: my job, my responsibility to really go inside and say, Okay,

637
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: what is happening that's making me not feel safe. A

638
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 2: partner who loves you, who considers you a partner, I

639
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: should both be invested in helping the other person feel safe,

640
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: be able to talk it out, negotiate, validate, change the

641
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: way you approach issues that aren't working but from the

642
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: part's work, I would say, don't ignore those parts. They're

643
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: not bad, but you have to dive deeper into that

644
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 2: part and understand what's it trying to tell you. And

645
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 2: then the other piece is to let them know this

646
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: is an updated information. I didn't know how to keep

647
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: myself safe in the past. I was completely bamboozled. I

648
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: was deprived of all the information I needed to keep

649
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: myself safe. I didn't even know what I didn't even know.

650
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: But look how much more I know now.

651
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 4: Thank you, Kristin. You have no idea. This means so

652
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 4: much to me. The fact that I have this clarity

653
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 4: and insight now, I just I can't thank you enough.

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Speaker 1: A quick note before we end, Caroline and Kristen discussed

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Speaker 1: attachment wounds and parts work, which are just two approaches

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Speaker 1: to deal with trauma responses. Kristin recommended that Caroline seek

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Speaker 1: out further evidence based trauma therapy practices such as EMDR, neurofeedback, brainspotting,

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Speaker 1: and internal family systems work. It's critical for anyone seeking

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Speaker 1: therapeutic care to work with a licensed professional. If you

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Speaker 1: want more from Kristen, go to her website. Kristin Snowden

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Speaker 1: dot com. We've linked it in the show notes. On

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Speaker 1: the next episode of Betrayal, we discuss how grief is

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Speaker 1: a marathon.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is the first year that we have actually

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Speaker 2: gotten into speek. My brother just crossed the finish line one.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Betrayal season four. If you

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Speaker 1: would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email

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00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 1: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod

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Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to follow

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Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H.

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00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates. One way

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00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: to support the series is by subscribing to our show

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star

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00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal

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Speaker 1: is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass

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00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 1: Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: The show is.

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Speaker 1: Executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal is

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00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced

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00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: by Caitlin Golden, also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Fetterman.

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Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team is

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Speaker 1: Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard,

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00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing by Matt Alvecchio, editing by Tanner Robbins.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to voice actor John Blomo, and special thanks

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Speaker 1: to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by

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Speaker 1: Oliver Baines. Music Library by my Music and For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts,