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Speaker 1: Hey guys.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're

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Speaker 2: looking for news stories of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series,

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Speaker 2: which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal and feel

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Speaker 2: ready to share your story, now is a great time

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Speaker 2: to reach out. Email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: It is not to your detriment that you have loved

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Speaker 1: and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person. You,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately just got an unhealthy, really sick person who was

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Speaker 1: so invested in keeping you out of his whole double

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Speaker 1: life that he was living and used every tactic in

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Speaker 1: the world to keep you blind to that.

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode

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Speaker 2: eight Solace. Caroline Brega has been dealing with the fallout

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Speaker 2: of her husband's betrayal for more than three years. When

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Speaker 2: you've been married for half your life, the recovery is long, unpredictable.

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Speaker 2: At the beginning, it's just about getting through the next hour,

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Speaker 2: the next twenty four hours, being able to get yourself

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Speaker 2: to work or show up for your kids. Now, Caroline

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Speaker 2: is reaching the point where she can start to truly

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Speaker 2: process and heal from that experience. We connected Caroline with

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Speaker 2: Kristen Snowden, an expert in betrayal, trauma, and infidelity. She's

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Speaker 2: a licensed marriage and Family therapist in the state of

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Speaker 2: California and a certified life coach.

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Speaker 1: My specialty is helping couples and individuals navigate relationship crises

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Speaker 1: that have been brought upon by uncovering an unknown addiction

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Speaker 1: or infidelity, and that's either chemical addictions or process addictions

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Speaker 1: such as sex, peorn love addiction.

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Speaker 2: Addiction is a loaded term and one we want to

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Speaker 2: use carefully. Most of us know someone who struggled with

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Speaker 2: a chemical addiction, like one to alcohol or opioids. Process

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Speaker 2: addictions are different. They involve compulsive behaviors that activate the

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Speaker 2: brain's reward system. The DSM five, the official manual clinicians

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Speaker 2: used to diagnose mental health disorders, only recognizes one process

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Speaker 2: addiction that's gambling disorder. Others, like sex addiction, remain controversial

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Speaker 2: and are not officially classified as mental health diagnoses. This

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Speaker 2: is not to say the experience of sex addiction isn't

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Speaker 2: real and valid, but without a diagnostic criteria can be misunderstood.

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Speaker 2: Misused or even abused. Joel began using the word addiction

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Speaker 2: to describe his behavior, but only after he was caught.

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Speaker 2: You'll remember the text he sent Caroline from rehab.

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Speaker 3: Low self esteem, self hatred, depression, anxiety, addiction all contributed

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Speaker 3: to my behavior and actions, saying people would not do

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Speaker 3: what I did, but I literally was not in my

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Speaker 3: right mind.

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Speaker 2: We don't know if Joel has been diagnosed with any

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Speaker 2: addictions to substances, but because Joel referred to himself as

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Speaker 2: an addict, you'll hear Kristen and Caroline use that term

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Speaker 2: in this conversation. They're also using it as a shorthand

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Speaker 2: for his compulsive and destructive behavior. Kristen started one of

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Speaker 2: the first dual diagnosis treatment programs for people with both

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Speaker 2: chemical addictions and sexual acting out behaviors, but in the

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Speaker 2: last ten years, her focus has shifted to helping betrayed partners.

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Speaker 2: She runs groups for those that have been betrayed, and

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Speaker 2: she has a YouTube channel where she shares free resources

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Speaker 2: for those navigating relationship crises.

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Speaker 1: I want betrayed partners to have that specialty training and

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Speaker 1: education that they deserve that I think is going to

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Speaker 1: help launch them into the ability to heal from these traumas.

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Speaker 2: When Kristen first meets with new clients, she often begins

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Speaker 2: with this metaphor.

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Speaker 1: Something that we do all day, every day is we drive.

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Speaker 1: And what we do is we're essentially taking for granted

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Speaker 1: that everybody else around us is going to follow the

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Speaker 1: rules of the road, and that is what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: When we're in these long term relationships with our partners,

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Speaker 1: we have very direct, spoken rules but also unspoken rules

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Speaker 1: that we're going to give each other the benefit of doubt,

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Speaker 1: We're going to do our best to do no harm.

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Speaker 1: We're going to follow the rules and move along in

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Speaker 1: the correct way together. And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: when you uncover that your partner is capable of lying,

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Speaker 1: sneaking around. It is as if someone is asking you

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Speaker 1: every day to just go do the basic things like

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Speaker 1: just go drive with the grocery store, just go drop

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Speaker 1: your kids off. But oh, by the way, no one's

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Speaker 1: going to follow the rules of the road. Hope you

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Speaker 1: make it there.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly the drive, the simple drive that you took for

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Speaker 1: granted every single day, becomes the most terrifying, hypervigilant, soul

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Speaker 1: sucking experience because you don't know what's coming at you,

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Speaker 1: and that is like the best metaphor I have to

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Speaker 1: help people understand what these betrayed partners are going through

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Speaker 1: from the minute they find out what their partner's done

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Speaker 1: and onward.

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Speaker 2: Kristin often works with people like Caroline, people who've been

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Speaker 2: left to pick up the pieces in the wake of

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Speaker 2: their partner's betrayal.

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Speaker 1: She's my qui essential client. Unfortunately, I've seen hundreds of her,

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Speaker 1: if not thousands.

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Speaker 2: Kristin met with Caroline several times over the course of

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Speaker 2: this season. With their permission, we'd like to share excerpts

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Speaker 2: from those sessions with you. Caroline started with the problem

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Speaker 2: she confronts often in her life, feeling on edge. In

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Speaker 2: the city she calls home, all she sees are places

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Speaker 2: where Joel arranged his meetups. These are landmarks that memorialize

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Speaker 2: her husband's affairs.

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Speaker 4: There's really only one way to drive to our local airport,

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Speaker 4: and I hate the drive. I hate it. All I

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Speaker 4: can do is think about this is where he did

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Speaker 4: this at, This is where he did this at. How

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Speaker 4: many people did he meet in this area? How many

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Speaker 4: times did this occur? Like it is just repetitive in

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Speaker 4: me how do you.

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Speaker 1: Feel in your body when you're driving to the airport

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Speaker 1: and you're crossing all those triggering places and spaces. What

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Speaker 1: does it feel like.

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Speaker 4: It could be the coldest morning in Colorado, and I

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Speaker 4: will start sweating when I reach that area of town.

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Speaker 4: I will have my heat completely turned off. I'll need

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Speaker 4: to crack the window, and the nausea starts, and my

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Speaker 4: brain just starts churning. This is the area where he

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Speaker 4: did this? How many times did he meet someone? It

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Speaker 4: will just continuously churn and I'll keep playing it and

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Speaker 4: replaying it and replaying it even after I park, when

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Speaker 4: I'm bringing my luggage up, when I'm checking in, it

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Speaker 4: just continuously plays in me. The piece of it that

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Speaker 4: is so aggravating is that I have no control over it.

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Speaker 4: I'm still reliving it every time I drive that route.

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Speaker 4: I think that I am a strong female, but I

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Speaker 4: will tell you that if you want to test someone's

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Speaker 4: ability to stay strong, go through this and have to

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Speaker 4: live it every day.

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Speaker 1: Right. That's why I always think it's interesting. But there's

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Speaker 1: really no such thing in the diagnostic manuals that categorizes

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Speaker 1: betrayal as a form of TRAUMADTSD, doesn't really fall in

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Speaker 1: that because you know, it has to be life threatening event,

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Speaker 1: and people don't consider these things to be life threatening.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I can imagine you feel like you

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Speaker 1: have PTSD symptoms.

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Speaker 4: I know I do, and I think it's evidenced by

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Speaker 4: the fact that my kids and I say, unless it

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Speaker 4: was an absolute life threatening event, we will never call

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Speaker 4: law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: M I'm sorry. It's like a systemic betrayal, similar to

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Speaker 1: people who've been betrayed to by the like religious organizations

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Speaker 1: like abused by the people in charge, and then shunned

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Speaker 1: and ignored and never validated or supported by their community.

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Speaker 4: You know, I pride myself in being someone who can

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Speaker 4: compartmentalize and keep myself together, but it is a struggle

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Speaker 4: to keep every emotion in and keep my shoulders back

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Speaker 4: and my head high. Constantly running into his colleagues.

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Speaker 1: What's the story you're telling yourself about what they are

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Speaker 1: experiencing when they see you.

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Speaker 4: When life blew up. Initially to me and my kids,

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Speaker 4: Joel said it was my fault. It was my fault

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Speaker 4: because we weren't having sex as much as he wanted to.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't doing things that he wanted to sexually like

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Speaker 4: he pointed the finger at me. And this is also

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Speaker 4: the narrative that he started telling all of his employment.

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Speaker 4: They're thinking to their selves, we know what Joel did.

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Speaker 4: We've been told that you're the reason why this happened.

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Speaker 4: He had to go seek sex elsewhere because he wasn't

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Speaker 4: getting it at home. He needed to go find it

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Speaker 4: around the community. This is all your fault. You caused

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Speaker 4: him to lose his job. In one of his disciplinary

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Speaker 4: write ups, it actually says Joel disc us that he

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Speaker 4: was having problems with his wife at home. It's like

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Speaker 4: everyone heard this narrative, but me. I didn't know this.

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Speaker 4: In my world, we were living this really blessed, utopian life.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know that this was being put on blast

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Speaker 4: about me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what is that like? On top of the shame

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Speaker 1: that you just generally experienced from being betrayed by your

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Speaker 1: intimate partner and finding out that he's led this whole

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Speaker 1: double life, what is that like to have this community

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Speaker 1: where they're blaming you or using your parent marital life

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Speaker 1: to justify his behavior.

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Speaker 4: It just continued to involve this constant nausea and chaos

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Speaker 4: in my life. And to have to have this pretend

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Speaker 4: face and this very low affect to not show emotion

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Speaker 4: was miserable, and it definitely doesn't feel sustainable to continue

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Speaker 4: to try to have this pretend normal at work. It

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Speaker 4: doesn't feel good to have this pretend normal at community

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Speaker 4: events where I see police officers who stare at me

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Speaker 4: and my kids when we're together. My daughter was in

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Speaker 4: a car accident her junior year, shortly after he blew

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Speaker 4: up our lives. About a month and a week later,

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Speaker 4: she was te boned and hit by a driver. And

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Speaker 4: when I went out to the scene to see her,

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Speaker 4: thank god, she was okay. But even in that moment,

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Speaker 4: cops were pulling up to the scene, and I could

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Speaker 4: hear them. They didn't even care that we were there,

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Speaker 4: what we had just gone through. I could hear them,

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, there's Kern's wife and his kid. Oh

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Speaker 4: my god, can you believe that he's in rehab right now?

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Speaker 4: I could hear them.

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Speaker 1: In like your moment of raw vulnerability.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I am for my daughter. I am terrified seeing

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Speaker 4: how she looks. She's just an absolute shock. Even in

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Speaker 4: that moment it's thrown in my face.

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Speaker 1: It must be overwhelming, especially when part of your trauma

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Speaker 1: has been being lied to. I can imagine it being

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Speaker 1: just even more frustrating, to say the least, that you

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Speaker 1: continue to be surrounded by a community that keeps telling

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Speaker 1: you that you're to blame. There is such a healing

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Speaker 1: and release of trauma that happens when a community can

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Speaker 1: share in validating that what happened was not okay, and

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Speaker 1: that was scary and that rocked our world. And I

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Speaker 1: just I'm so sad that you've been denied. I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: that you live in a community where there's just a

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Speaker 1: lack of empathy for what you and the kids have

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Speaker 1: gone through.

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Speaker 4: I think it's not only a lack of empathy. I

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Speaker 4: think it is the belief of a false narrative.

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Speaker 1: What do you tell you about why they can kind

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Speaker 1: of be so non empathetic, why they're so invested in

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Speaker 1: holding on to Joel's story.

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Speaker 4: Hear me out because I'm going to sound very self

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Speaker 4: loathing while I say this. I did it. I believe Joel.

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Speaker 4: I mean I initially carried this guilt when he looked

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Speaker 4: at me and he said, well, we weren't having sex enough.

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Speaker 4: You were paying more attention to the kids than you

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Speaker 4: did to me. I didn't feel like you loved me,

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Speaker 4: And in the moments of it, I doubted myself. I thought,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, were we having sex enough? Did I

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Speaker 4: show you that I loved you? Did I pay more

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Speaker 4: attention to the kids than you? I mean, he got

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Speaker 4: in my head when he was excusing his behaviors until

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Speaker 4: I know the extent of what he did. When it

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Speaker 4: became reality, I was able to let go some of

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Speaker 4: that guilt and that burden. But this was someone who

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Speaker 4: was extremely well liked within the department. You know, he

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Speaker 4: was friendly and got along with people, and he supported

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Speaker 4: his own and all of these things. My husband lived

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Speaker 4: a double life. And in my gut, I believe that

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Speaker 4: he is an extremely intelligent man, and I do think

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Speaker 4: that he knew as things were progressing he was about

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Speaker 4: ready to be caught and he needed to start shifting

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Speaker 4: the blame or provide excuses and people believe him.

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Speaker 1: When betrayal happens in a relationship, in a marriage, the

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Speaker 1: vulnerability of the fact that that can happen to anybody,

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Speaker 1: that you can be blindsided by someone you trust in

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Speaker 1: love and they can hurt you the most. I think

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Speaker 1: that hits too close to home for most people. So

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Speaker 1: they have to package it up in a way that

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Speaker 1: makes you different than them. You know, it's scary to

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Speaker 1: think that my partner can just go out have a

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Speaker 1: bunch of sex with somebody else, lie sninak around, keep

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Speaker 1: doing it. If I really sat with the vulnerability of

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Speaker 1: that would just lock me up, Like the powerlessness of

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Speaker 1: that is just too scary. As a defense mechanism, I

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Speaker 1: have to make your story different so I can go

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Speaker 1: back and carry on in my life. So the story

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Speaker 1: has to be Caroline didn't give him enough sex. Well,

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Speaker 1: I give my partner enough sex, and that just others

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Speaker 1: her in a way where it allows me to just

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Speaker 1: not feel the vulnerability. Do you get what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to say?

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Speaker 4: It makes sense, like a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: It's just in this realm of infidelities where there seems

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Speaker 1: to be this really strong focus on the betrayed partner.

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Speaker 1: No one blames the wife or the spouse or a

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Speaker 1: partner for someone's heroin addiction, except for someone's gambling addiction.

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Speaker 1: There's just something about the fact that in people's brains

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Speaker 1: they want to make it a relational problem when it

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Speaker 1: is not a relational problem. What I always say is

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Speaker 1: it's like this additional trauma and abuse that happens, that will,

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Speaker 1: as you're saying, shut a betrayed partner down, stop them

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Speaker 1: from wanting to share their story, cause them to feel

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Speaker 1: even more isolated after they've already been betrayed by the

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Speaker 1: person they've made themselves most exposed to. Why are we

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Speaker 1: talking about, like, well, did you have sex with them enough?

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Speaker 1: Were you nagging? I mean it does nothing but harm.

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Speaker 2: Caroline is talking to Kristen Snowden, a licensed therapist and

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Speaker 2: life coach who specializes in betrayal trauma.

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Speaker 4: The other night, I was at a very popular brewery

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Speaker 4: and I walk in and I'm standing in line, and

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Speaker 4: I hear Caroline, and I turn and I look and

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Speaker 4: it's one of Joel's best friends. When Joel got in trouble,

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Speaker 4: he turned to this person and he goes over, opens

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Speaker 4: his arm, gives me a hug. I did like one

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Speaker 4: of these where I just kept my arms straight down,

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Speaker 4: you know, like I don't want you to physically touch me.

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Speaker 1: Like you had a physiological response to him.

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Speaker 4: Yes, we don't need to have physical contact. I do

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Speaker 4: not want to hug you. We are not friends. I

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Speaker 4: know what you have said about me.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: I just kept my arms straight down, very stiff, and

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Speaker 4: he was like, how are you And I just stopped

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Speaker 4: him and I said, you know what, I know all

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Speaker 4: of the horrible things you have said about me and

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Speaker 4: the blame you have placed on me, there's no need

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Speaker 4: for us to talk. And he looked at me and

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Speaker 4: he kind of got this smirk and he said, okay.

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Speaker 4: But for the first time in a long time, it

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Speaker 4: felt empowering to not take it, to not engage in it.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the difference was? Why now?

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Speaker 4: I think the difference at this point is that I

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Speaker 4: know I'm not alone. For a long time, I felt

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Speaker 4: like this could never happen to anyone else, and this

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Speaker 4: almost shame and guilt and the personification of Joel's actions

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Speaker 4: onto me and my kids just filled me with embarrassment.

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Speaker 4: You know, that was one of the things that drew

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Speaker 4: me in with the podcast, as hearing, oh my god,

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Speaker 4: like this happened to someone else. Since everything happened, I

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Speaker 4: feel like in my past life I was this pretty

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Speaker 4: confident person, but since my ex husband's secret life had

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Speaker 4: been revealed to me, I mean, it just really put

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Speaker 4: a weight of constant insecurity on me. Just constant and

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Speaker 4: it's been a really long time since I have been

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Speaker 4: able to keep my head up really long time.

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Speaker 1: It's common for us to feel less confident and standing

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Speaker 1: in our own reality when we're surrounded by people who

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Speaker 1: are questioning our reality. There was so many elements where

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Speaker 1: you were saying, look, this is you're in a different location.

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Speaker 1: Where are you? No, you're crazy, No, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with you. So you were in a constant

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Speaker 1: environment with him where he was questioning your reality, and

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Speaker 1: then after he left, you were living in this world

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Speaker 1: where everyone was kind of validating his narrative and not

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Speaker 1: extending grace and empathy towards you in a very very

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Speaker 1: painful way. So I could completely understand why you've struggled

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Speaker 1: so much to stand in your confidence. It's so traumatizing

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Speaker 1: to have someone dismantle your instincts and intuition and question

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Speaker 1: your reality, question your sanity. It is a huge casualty

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Speaker 1: of betrayal.

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Speaker 4: Yes, spot on.

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Speaker 1: I always say like, you've been traumatized, and now you're

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Speaker 1: responsible for trying your best to mitigate those unfortunate circumstances.

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Speaker 1: Right that you now have a traumatized body, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have trauma triggers, trauma responses. It gets really confusing, like

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Speaker 1: is this a red flag or is this like a

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Speaker 1: trauma response, a trauma trigger that's coming up for me.

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Speaker 1: And so it's just really important to have a couple

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Speaker 1: people in your community where you can bounce this off

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Speaker 1: of and validate. Am I crazy? Because it's just the

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Speaker 1: most benign things you find yourself questioning. That is one

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Speaker 1: of the healing pathways after being betrayed. You can't do

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Speaker 1: it on your own, no, And so it's this counterintuitive thing, right.

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Speaker 1: People come to me because their lives have been devastated

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Speaker 1: and turn upside down because they have opened their heart

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Speaker 1: and their life to a person and they have just

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Speaker 1: been lied to and their whole lives destroy their families

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Speaker 1: destroyed because of it. And one of my treatment processes

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Speaker 1: is to say, well, and now you need to go

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Speaker 1: to a group, and most understandably so they say, hell, no,

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Speaker 1: I've exposed myself enough.

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Speaker 2: I'm popping in here for just a second. Caroline, like

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Speaker 2: many people who've been betrayed, was initially resistant to group workshops,

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Speaker 2: but eventually she decided to give them a shot and

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Speaker 2: she joined a group. Kristin runs for betrayed partners.

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Speaker 4: One of the big pieces of why I fell in

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Speaker 4: that category was because it's hard to believe there are

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Speaker 4: evil humans out there that would do the same thing

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Speaker 4: to other innocent people. And then being in that group hearing,

350
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Speaker 4: oh my god, this happened to all of you. Yeah,

351
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Speaker 4: and replace my name with your name, and our stories

352
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 4: are almost parallel to each other. I mean, we walked

353
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Speaker 4: a very similar path. You feel so alone though at

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Speaker 4: the beginning when it happens, like this could not happen

355
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Speaker 4: to anyone else, especially when you're surrounded with friends and

356
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Speaker 4: family members who assumedly are living these very healthy marriages

357
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Speaker 4: and healthy relationships, and like you're just on this little

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Speaker 4: island by yourself that no one else would really understand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and what has it been like to be in

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Speaker 1: a group where you're around several women who are betrayed

361
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Speaker 1: partners of sex addicts, And I mean, what's that been

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Speaker 1: like to hear all those stories?

363
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Speaker 4: There's been I mean a great sense of camaraderie, definitely

364
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Speaker 4: some validation.

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Speaker 1: And I always think it's very interesting. One of the

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Speaker 1: miss about betrayal trauma is we think that this the

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Speaker 1: person that got betrayed, the person that got bamboozled and

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Speaker 1: lied to is this passive person that just kind of

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Speaker 1: gets fooled. But so often I run into betrayed partners,

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Speaker 1: and in every other facet of their life, they're extremely

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Speaker 1: clear about what they want, what they need, and it

372
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Speaker 1: just shows the manipulation power that their attic partners.

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Speaker 4: Use one hundred percent accurate.

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Speaker 1: You've seen in these groups, these phenomenal women who are

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Speaker 1: just so smart, have these careers, had these lives, had

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Speaker 1: these great children, and then just got side swiped and

377
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: blindsided by their partner's behavior that they had no idea.

378
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Speaker 1: And these betrayed partners often are so busy, in fact,

379
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Speaker 1: living their lives, trying to be the best parents they

380
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Speaker 1: can be, be the best partners that they can be,

381
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Speaker 1: and don't even realize that people can lie and deceive

382
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Speaker 1: and commit illegal acts. All of those are so far

383
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: off their radar. That is why they are kind of

384
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Speaker 1: victimized over such a long period of time. That is

385
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Speaker 1: why they are often so primed to let their partners

386
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Speaker 1: lies kind of trump their own instincts and intuition. Yes, yes,

387
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Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna say, you're a beautiful woman, you're

388
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Speaker 1: well spoken, you're educated, you have this career, you have

389
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Speaker 1: these kids, and it just starts taking stories off of

390
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: people's lists, Like they can't write the story that you

391
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: were unattractive, or you were crazy, or you were money hungry.

392
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Speaker 1: I mean, because you're just You're none of those things.

393
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Speaker 1: You're a high functioning, attractive, loving, stable human being that

394
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Speaker 1: happen to marry an unhealthy person and you are still

395
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Speaker 1: suffering the consequences.

396
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Speaker 4: Thank you for saying that. That makes me like, thank you,

397
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 4: thank you. Yeah, I know.

398
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Speaker 1: It is not to your detriment that you have loved

399
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Speaker 1: and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person.

400
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: You unfortunately just got the person who was so invested

401
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: in keeping you out of his whole double life that

402
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: he was living and used every tactic in the world

403
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: to keep you blind to that.

404
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 4: I heard from multiple family members and then some of

405
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 4: his subsequent online paramours. He actually used me filing the

406
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 4: divorce as a tool to garner sympathy. His comment to

407
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 4: people was, I was sick and Caroline wouldn't work with me.

408
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 4: You know, Caroline wouldn't stay with me and see me

409
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Speaker 4: through getting the therapy I needed. You know, she just

410
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 4: wanted to run right away. That was one of the

411
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 4: things that he had told people, and it had been

412
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 4: used against me. Of well, if you really loved him,

413
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 4: you would have stuck it out with him.

414
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: Well and better. Yet, someone in recovery who's really reckoned

415
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: with the fact that there are consequences to every action

416
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: is understanding that these are the typical consequences that come

417
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: with that behavior. I've made bad choices, and I lied,

418
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: and I snuck around, and I broke my vows, and

419
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: I exposed my family to a lot of uncertainty and unsafety.

420
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: And it's heartbreaking and horrible, and I wish that wasn't

421
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: the case. I wish I'd changed sooner. I mean, those

422
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: are words of someone who's moving through recovery. His words

423
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: are more reflective somebody who's just always constantly building that

424
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: wall of entitlement. I work so hard. I'm entitled to

425
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 1: go do this. She's always nagging me. I'm entitled to

426
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: go do this. I didn't get that promotion. I'm entitled

427
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: to go do this. It's my birthday. I'm titled to

428
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: go do this. I had childhood trauma. I'm entitled to

429
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: go do this. Those are dangerous, dangerous people That is

430
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: not a sign of someone who is, as we say

431
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: in the twelve step world, who's humbled and surrendered. The

432
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: sign of someone who's always setting up justification, rationale and

433
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: entitlement to go out and do what they want to

434
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: do because I get to and they are not thinking

435
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: about the family system, they are not thinking about their

436
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: values and goals, they're not definitely not thinking about the

437
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: true consequences to their behaviors, and those are all things

438
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: required for someone to live in recovery.

439
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 4: It was funny because you actually said this to me

440
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 4: last week. I had this moment of like a mind fuck,

441
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 4: of like did I give it my all? Should I

442
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 4: have stayed in? You know, I made a vow to

443
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 4: stay with him in sickness and in health.

444
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 2: As a reminder. Caroline made the decision to leave the

445
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: marriage after she got a call from a case manager

446
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: at Joel's rehab facility. The case manager told Cane that

447
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 2: Joel was one of the worst cases of sex addiction

448
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: she'd ever seen. He wasn't taking the treatment seriously, and

449
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: when Caroline realized he wasn't doing the work, she decided

450
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: their marriage was irreparable.

451
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 4: And that's why I tried to separate our lives as

452
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 4: quick as I could.

453
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: Caroline reflected back on this moment after hearing the stories

454
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 2: of other women in Kristen's group, some of whom were

455
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: trying to repair their marriages.

456
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 4: I took pause for a second of seeing these women

457
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 4: really try and then saying, you know, I think I'm

458
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 4: to the point now where I can walk away because

459
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 4: I've really done everything. I've exhausted all efforts. And I

460
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 4: had a moment of I should have exhausted all efforts.

461
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 4: Why didn't I do that? So this past week, two

462
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 4: of them did say it, I wish I would have

463
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 4: left right away, And like after we hung up, I

464
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: just I don't know, I just like cried and cried

465
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 4: and cried just because because it was validating. There's so

466
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 4: many things that just you replan your head, like did

467
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 4: I should I could I even though I know I

468
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 4: did the right thing, but hearing someone say I wish

469
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 4: I did that, it just felt validating.

470
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: And like we said that, in any given group, there's

471
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: always a story in your head that should I have

472
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: tried harder, should I have left sooner? It is the conundrum. Yeah,

473
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: for sure, you know, having hope that they'll change, and

474
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: then it's the painful coming to that hard conclusion when

475
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: you're just like, I don't think this person's ever going

476
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: to change. It's not always the case. I obviously do

477
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: work with couples and addicts in recovery who do pivot

478
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: and change, so I always say it's okay to leave,

479
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: and it's okay stay. But especially the betrayed partners who

480
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: don't get the closure, the full disclosure of what really happened,

481
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: a full understanding of why they did what they did,

482
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: with a newfound understanding because they've done all this work

483
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: to understand their poor coping skills and what led them

484
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: to do these behaviors and what was really going on

485
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: in their head. It is so hard for betrayed partners

486
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: to move through and heal without that closure.

487
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: We've been listening to Caroline talk with Kristen Snowden about

488
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: healing after betrayal. One of the things Caroline addressed in

489
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: her sessions was how to have healthy relationships going forward.

490
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 4: Every Sunday, a group of friends and I get together

491
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 4: and we do something called Separate Club. I mean, they're

492
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 4: kind of my core group of people, like my trusted circle,

493
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 4: the ones who know the full story. But one of

494
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 4: the things about being in that circle is that they've

495
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 4: seen me on this journey of attempting to move forward,

496
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 4: attempting to garner some semblance of normalcy, and they've seen

497
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 4: me go from very very scared to start dating to

498
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 4: I'm going to rip the band aid off and go

499
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 4: on my first date, or I think I'll hang out

500
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 4: with this person for a little bit. This person is

501
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 4: not healthier. These qualities are things that I don't want

502
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 4: around me, and I will make excuses very quick to

503
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 4: not let things be serious or feel vulnerable in any way.

504
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 4: And then there's been times where I have thought, I

505
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: just am starting to feel too close and I'd rather

506
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 4: run before I feel hurt. Well, for the first time,

507
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 4: maybe ever, since this happened, I have been around someone

508
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 4: who is just if you just saw this person. My

509
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 4: joke is that this is like a mother's dream. I mean,

510
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 4: this is someone who is personable and handsome and amazing,

511
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 4: has done good service for the community and to his country.

512
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 4: And there are times where I have been getting ready

513
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 4: to hang out with him and I will literally be

514
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 4: putting them on my makeup and think to myself, you

515
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 4: should run tonight. Tonight's the night you should just go

516
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 4: to dinner and then ghost him, never speak to him again.

517
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 4: And I can't really tell you why. It's just this

518
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 4: feeling of protect yourself now before you feel any more vulnerable. Run.

519
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 4: Nothing has gone wrong, there's been no red flag. There's

520
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 4: nothing except this internal voice in me that says you're

521
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 4: starting to let your guard down, protect yourself, go go now.

522
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and.

523
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 4: You know this supper club that I do. I took

524
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 4: a chance and invited him to supper club. He walked

525
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 4: in just a little bit late. Now, the excuse for

526
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 4: being late. Something came up with his kids. He was

527
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: just running a little bit late. Was it two hours late? No,

528
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 4: an hour late, not even close, nothing like that. But

529
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 4: in that moment, I thought, there it is, there's your reason.

530
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: Do it.

531
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 4: Do it now? Just ridiculous. And one of my friends

532
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 4: in supper club actually said, do not let this be

533
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 4: this reason that you let something good go. Don't do it.

534
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 4: So I know people see it and I know it,

535
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 4: but I don't know how to let go of that feeling.

536
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: Well, honestly, because because once you've had your instincts and

537
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: intuition totally destroyed and dismantled and being told, oh, it's

538
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: night outside, when the sun is beaming in your eyes.

539
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: It's so common to constantly struggle with the inner compass

540
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,439
Speaker 1: of what's safe and what's not safe when we have

541
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: these wounded parts in us, these really hurt parts because

542
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: understandably so, you have been victimized. We often want to

543
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: push them away because we're sitting there getting ready for

544
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: the date. We should be happy. We tell ourselves what

545
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: we should be right. This is a good person, it's

546
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: great that we're dating. As you said, all the moms

547
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: of the world would love him. So we instinctively want

548
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: to push out that scared part that's screaming out. But

549
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: you have to do kind of something that is counterintuitive,

550
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: which is go into that part and learn more and

551
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: it actually is pretty amazing, like the stories that scared

552
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: part will tell you.

553
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a really good challenge.

554
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: And for a woman, let's say, especially a nurturing mom

555
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: like you, it helps with our paradigm shift if we

556
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: view it as like a scared child or even a

557
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: scared teenager, and you listen to it like a mom

558
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: because you're not judging it, you're not saying, oh, what's

559
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: wrong with you? This guy's great, Like stop it, shut up.

560
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: Instead you can say, like, what's scary? All right? How

561
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: can I help you feel safe? What do we know

562
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: now versus what we're feeling inside? And can we get

563
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: through this? And then you and I talked about this before.

564
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: But it's also all about the repair attempt that happens

565
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: once you bring this to the person you're dating. You

566
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: now have taken the minute to be like, this triggered

567
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: the heck out of me. I feel really unsafe. Lateness

568
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: does not just mean being to me. There's this amazing

569
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: repair attempt that can happen in a future relationship where

570
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: this time your partner doesn't invalidate you. They don't tell

571
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: you you're crazy. They can say, you know, I'm sorry

572
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: this made you feel scared or upset. I'm sorry this

573
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,959
Speaker 1: triggered a history, but let me help you feel safe

574
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: for this time.

575
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 4: So it's interesting that you bring that last part up

576
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 4: because I wanted to be fair and I actually told

577
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 4: him about the podcast, and so telling him about the

578
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 4: podcast meant that I had to tell him about my history.

579
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 4: And I admit that I not only told him to

580
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 4: be fair, but I also told him, because there was

581
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 4: this piece of me that was like, so you're going

582
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 4: to hear this and you're going to see just the

583
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 4: insanity that I've had to experience. Let me see if

584
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 4: I can get you to run. And his response was

585
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 4: I think you're really brave.

586
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: Wow. And how healing was that sentence.

587
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 4: It was just like oh my god, oh my God,

588
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 4: like thank you. It had been a really long time

589
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 4: to hear someone. I mean, of course, my friends, my

590
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 4: friends have seen and heard and they know the insanity

591
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 4: and the wheel of insanity that I was locked into

592
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 4: and what I was going through. But for him to

593
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 4: have taken pause, listened to me, asked relevant clarifying questions,

594
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 4: and then ended it with I think you're really brave.

595
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 4: It took this weight off of me and to have

596
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 4: just this pause for wait, there is some humanity in this.

597
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: That is so healing. I mean, that's why I also

598
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: say why betrayal trauma can never be healed on your own,

599
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: because these are severe attachment wounds. These are wounds that

600
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 1: came due to others breaking your heart and betraying you.

601
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: So a lot of the healing and rewiring has to

602
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: occur in a relationship setting and as you mentioned, good friends, family,

603
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: But your brain has to find new evidence that your

604
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: ex's behaviors were more unique and an anomaly that you

605
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: can avoid by taking healthy steps and setting up boundaries

606
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: and keeping other safe people around you for a checks

607
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: and balance system. But these are the rule. He was

608
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: the exception. These are the rule, and you can still

609
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: feel safe and vulnerable with these people.

610
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 4: It's tough, though, Oh it's scary.

611
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: Well, and let's like talk to those scared parts for

612
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: a second. What is different, you know, update those scared

613
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: parts that were betrayed and blindsided. What is different now?

614
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 4: Well, one of the biggest things is that I'm not married,

615
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 4: and I'm not locked into this need to believe or

616
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 4: feel like I needed to have blind trust in someone.

617
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 4: That I am my own authority. I can make my

618
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 4: own decisions on this and don't need to believe anyone

619
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 4: for anything.

620
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I always say I never let someone tell me

621
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: what my reality in my experience is. You never get

622
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: to tell me that. And even if even if I

623
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: am inaccurate with like thinking that you're somewhere or that

624
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 1: you were cheating and you're not cheating, the bottom line

625
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: is my experiences, I'm questioning your choices. I'm not feeling

626
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: safe in this relationship. I'm experiencing in congruencies that are

627
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: making me want to pull away. I don't feel respected,

628
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: I don't feel like you're hearing me, And those are

629
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: all important things to be relentless about. I'm supposed to

630
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: feel safe with other people, and so when I don't,

631
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: it's my job, my responsibility to really go inside and say, Okay,

632
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: what is happening that's making me not feel safe. A

633
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: partner who loves you, who considers you a partner guy,

634
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: should both be invested in helping the other person feel safe,

635
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: be able to talk it out, negotiate, validate, change the

636
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: way you approach issues that aren't working. But from the

637
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: part's work, I would say, don't ignore those parts. They're

638
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: not bad, but you have to dive deeper into that

639
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: part and understand what's it trying to tell you. And

640
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: then the other piece is to let them know this

641
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 1: is an updated information. I didn't know how to keep

642
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: myself safe in the past. I was completely bamboozled. I

643
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: was deprived of all the information I needed to keep

644
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: myself safe. I didn't even know what I didn't even know,

645
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 1: but look how much more I know now.

646
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 4: Thank you, Kristen. You have no idea. This means so

647
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 4: much to me. The fact that I have this clarity

648
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 4: and insight now, I just I can't thank you enough.

649
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 4: A quick note.

650
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: Before we end, Caroline and Kristen discussed attachment wounds and

651
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: parts work, which are just two approaches to dealing with

652
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: trauma responses. Kristin recommended that Caroline seek out further evidence

653
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: based trauma therapy practices such as EMDR, neurofeedback, brainspotting, and

654
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 2: internal family systems work. It's critical for anyone seeking therapeutic

655
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Speaker 2: care to work with a license professional. If you want

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Speaker 2: more from Kristen, go to her website Kristensnowden dot com.

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Speaker 2: We've linked in the show notes. On the next episode

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Speaker 2: of Betrayal, we discuss how grief is a marathon.

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Speaker 4: Well, this is the first year that we have actually

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Speaker 4: gotten into steak my brother just across the finish line.

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Speaker 2: On Thank you for listening to Betrayal season four. If

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Speaker 2: you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team,

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00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 2: email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal

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Speaker 2: Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to

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Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H.

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Speaker 2: Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates.

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Speaker 1: One way to.

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Speaker 2: Support the series is by subscribing to our show on

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star reviews

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Speaker 2: help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is

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Speaker 2: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,

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Speaker 2: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced

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Speaker 2: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal is hosted and

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Speaker 2: produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden,

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Speaker 2: also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Fetterman. Our associate

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Speaker 2: producer is Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry

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Speaker 2: and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard, Audio editing

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Speaker 2: and mixing by Matt Alvecchio, editing by Tanner Robbins, Special

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Speaker 2: thanks to voice actor John Blomo, and special thanks to

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Speaker 2: Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.

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Speaker 2: Music library provided by my Music and For more podcasts

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Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever

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Speaker 2: you get your podcasts