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Speaker 1: Music saved me to be This is just this is neurology.

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Speaker 1: You know, somebody can tell me it's okay that you're

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Speaker 1: going through a season of depression right now, and that

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Speaker 1: can be powerful if I hear someone telling me that.

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Speaker 1: But there's also beautiful music that's happening at the same time.

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Speaker 1: It sort of puts it on steroids, for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better term.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lyn Hoffman and welcome to the Music Save Me podcast,

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Speaker 2: the podcast where we talk with musicians about their personal

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Speaker 2: stories that transform into their powerful music. Music Save Me

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Speaker 2: is also a proud supporter of musicians on call. On

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Speaker 2: this episode, we are so happy to have singer songwriter

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Speaker 2: William Fitzimmons, who definitely knows a thing or two about

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Speaker 2: the healing and transformative powers of music. He has some

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Speaker 2: great new music out that we'll get to as well

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Speaker 2: as talk about how music affected him and in essence,

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Speaker 2: transformed his life. William Fitzsimmons, Welcome to Music Save Me.

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Speaker 2: It's so great to have you here.

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Speaker 1: It's wonderful to be here. Thanks. Lynn.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're not only an incredible talented musician and songwriter

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Speaker 2: and engineer and producer, but you also have which I

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Speaker 2: find so incredibly interesting. A master's degree in mental health therapy,

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Speaker 2: and prior to your successful career in music, you worked

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Speaker 2: as a mental health therapist. So that makes you just

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Speaker 2: about the most perfect guest for this show that I

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Speaker 2: could get. So my first question to you is do

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Speaker 2: you believe that music has healing powers?

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Speaker 1: It'd be crazy if I said no, right now, right,

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Speaker 1: and then well see you guys, letter really do Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And I never I was not a music therapist. I

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Speaker 1: worked with music therapist. I did impatient for about five

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Speaker 1: years in Camden, New Jersey, and we would occasionally have

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Speaker 1: music therapist that would come in and I thought it

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Speaker 1: was fascinating. But at that point I had never put

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Speaker 1: the two together in anything more than just an experiential way.

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Speaker 1: Music could my entire life was a healing force. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it in a professional manner, but I

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Speaker 1: always knew that in my personal life it was wildly transformative.

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Speaker 2: When did you realize that it was a huge part

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Speaker 2: of your calling in life? And did your unique childhood

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Speaker 2: upbringing have anything to do with it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, of course I think so. My parents are

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Speaker 1: both blind, I'm supposed to say visually disabled, but they

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Speaker 1: stay blind. So I feel like I can probably stay

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Speaker 1: blind too. And the thing that I realized of being

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Speaker 1: a peripheral part of that community of watching my parents

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Speaker 1: and the organizations they were part of and their friends,

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Speaker 1: is that music. It was like this. It was like

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Speaker 1: a leveling force where like my dad is an amazing organist,

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Speaker 1: wonderful organ player, he just doesn't need his eyes. It

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Speaker 1: would be lovely if he could, you know, when he's

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Speaker 1: when he's learning a new bach piece or something. If

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Speaker 1: he could site read it, that would be great. But

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Speaker 1: to actually experience to play music, to sing a song

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Speaker 1: with somebody else, you just don't need to see to

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Speaker 1: do that. And so in our family, that was one

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Speaker 1: of the very few things that we could fully connect

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Speaker 1: on and be in the same level. So I think

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Speaker 1: even as a kid, you know, not like not being

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Speaker 1: able to have eye contact with my mom as like

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Speaker 1: a toddler, which you don't know it when you're three

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Speaker 1: or four, but you feel it, you know. But she

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Speaker 1: would sing like John Denver songs to me and I

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Speaker 1: would start sing them with her, and so there was

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Speaker 1: no disconnect at that point. So I had the understanding

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Speaker 1: of how connect at the very least, how connecting. Music

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Speaker 1: can be and it's cheesy, but it actually brings people together.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the few things that can do that

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Speaker 1: in a really powerful way.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's cheesy at all. Think it's incredible

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Speaker 2: and what a skill to be given to you at

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Speaker 2: such a young age. And you didn't even realize the

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Speaker 2: extent of no idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just something really special. That's why I

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Speaker 1: didn't think of it as as a job, you know.

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, no, of course, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: play music, that's what you know. I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: that annoying the guy with the acoustic guitar on college campus,

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Speaker 1: like singing Wonderwall, like trying to get all the girls

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Speaker 1: to come over and listen to them, you know.

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Speaker 3: With the puppy and the guitar case.

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Speaker 1: I maybe that's why I didn't work that well, that would.

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Speaker 2: Have been h Well, you know I've read that you'd

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Speaker 2: once said about your job description as a musician that

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Speaker 2: pretty much you have to write about the hard shit

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Speaker 2: and nothing's off limits in your private life. What allows

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Speaker 2: you to be so profoundly open about the personal aspects

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Speaker 2: of your life.

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Speaker 1: It's how my mom has always been where nothing really

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Speaker 1: was off limits, and like even to an uncomfortable level.

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Speaker 1: So I had that education pretty young where you know,

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Speaker 1: she when when my parents split up and we stayed,

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Speaker 1: my mom had full custody. She's a very open emotional person,

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Speaker 1: and for better or worse, that was kind of the

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Speaker 1: That was the experience that I That was the modal

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Speaker 1: experience that I had of encountering emotions was being fully

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Speaker 1: free to talk about like I'm angry, I'm sad. You know.

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Speaker 1: It was that and frankly just the training for being

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Speaker 1: a therapist. If if you're unwilling to sit in a

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Speaker 1: room with somebody and then literally described like the darkest,

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Speaker 1: most difficult stuff, you're never going to make it. So

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Speaker 1: it's really sink or swim like that. You know. It's

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Speaker 1: one thing when you're doing you're in grad school and

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Speaker 1: you're practicing with your your peers and they're making up

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Speaker 1: problems they have, and then all of a sudden, you're

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Speaker 1: in your internship and someone is weeping and they're talking

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Speaker 1: about a parent that died, like you have to you

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Speaker 1: either can show up and sit with them in that pain,

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Speaker 1: or it's time to find a new job. So it

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Speaker 1: really I don't give myself much credit for it. That's

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Speaker 1: just the experiences that I had, And I was ready

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Speaker 1: when I started writing my own songs, like I don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk about you know, boring, ineffectual stuff like

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Speaker 1: to me, the fund's not the right word. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about the really hard stuff because that's where

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Speaker 1: I saw the most change and the most reward for

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Speaker 1: everybody in the room.

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Speaker 2: I mean, to some degree, we all sort of struggle

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Speaker 2: in our own ways with so many similar things, but

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Speaker 2: nobody really ever talks about it. So combined talking about

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Speaker 2: it with music, I would imagine that would probably be

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Speaker 2: like the pinnacle of Yeah, just layter all out there

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Speaker 2: and connecting with people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well there's there's good stalts, right, the whole is

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Speaker 1: greater than the some of its parts. And that's you know, music, film,

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Speaker 1: like any multi modal kind of art form. I think

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Speaker 1: it the more modes that you have in there, the

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Speaker 1: better you're able to bypass the frontal lobe, because to

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Speaker 1: be this is just this is neurology. You know, somebody

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Speaker 1: can tell me, you know, it's okay that you're going

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Speaker 1: through a season of depression right now, and that can

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Speaker 1: be powerful if I hear someone telling me that, but

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Speaker 1: there's also beautiful music that's happening at the same time.

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Speaker 1: I just I think it's like it's it sort of

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Speaker 1: puts it on steroids, for lack of a better term,

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Speaker 1: And I just think it goes right in and your

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Speaker 1: your defense mechanisms have a lot of difficulty fighting it

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Speaker 1: because you just you know, you listening to a song

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Speaker 1: and you start crying right and you have no idea

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Speaker 1: why that. That to me, that's the strength that music has.

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Speaker 1: I think it can get deeper quicker.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about.

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Speaker 2: Your new project, Incidental Contact, and in particular your stepmom,

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Speaker 2: who I'm sorry to hear passed away. How did that

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Speaker 2: impact you and your music?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I it's you have to be careful with

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Speaker 1: some of these things that you write about. I remember

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Speaker 1: there was one I did a I did a piece

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Speaker 1: a long time ago, like a long form interview about

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Speaker 1: my third record that was about my first divorce. Can

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Speaker 1: I have to have to count on my fingers which

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Speaker 1: one it is? And I'm just kidding, okay, And like

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Speaker 1: everything was overwhelming and positive. There was great feedback on it,

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Speaker 1: but there was one comment which that that's why I

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Speaker 1: learned never to read internet comments where I was like,

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Speaker 1: what a what a disgrace? Two to make money off

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Speaker 1: of this? You know, this this painful like experience. And

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Speaker 1: I'm old enough now or I can look at that

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Speaker 1: and be like, oh that I see that person's point

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Speaker 1: and that's the reaction they had and for some reason

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Speaker 1: they were put off by it, and that's okay, Like

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Speaker 1: I have room for that. I felt like my intentions

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Speaker 1: were pretty pure, so I wasn't overly bothered by it,

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Speaker 1: but for you know, a day or two. But all

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Speaker 1: that to say, when Vicky, when my stepmom died, it

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Speaker 1: was a really big surprise. And writing is just that

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Speaker 1: that tends to be the tool that I've developed to

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Speaker 1: figure stuff out. It's really very similar to journaling, which

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Speaker 1: which I do on and off as well. That my

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Speaker 1: therapist got me into that years ago, but I had

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Speaker 1: already been doing that With writing songs, it just it

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Speaker 1: just helped me get stuff out that maybe I was

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Speaker 1: having trouble figuring out, like what am I actually feeling

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Speaker 1: right now? Am I'm angry? You know? Am I guilty

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Speaker 1: for maybe things that were left unseat or undone? And

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Speaker 1: so writing those songs really was just about Okay, the

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Speaker 1: we're in grief right now, let's start, let's start walking

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Speaker 1: through it. What do we do? Let's sit at the

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Speaker 1: piano and see what comes out. It was really that

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Speaker 1: it was that simple, and you know, it didn't fix everything,

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Speaker 1: but I think it got me, like to the next

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Speaker 1: stage where I could start figuring out what was next.

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Speaker 2: So many people are not fortunate enough to have people

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Speaker 2: in their lives to talk to, so having that skill

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Speaker 2: is huge.

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Speaker 1: It'd be nicer. Mental health was not something that we

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Speaker 1: had to pay exorbit fees for. That's a different conversation.

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Speaker 2: But something that you said right before, what you just

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Speaker 2: said too, I mean, it hits me even you know

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Speaker 2: where we're sitting here trying to figure out you know,

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Speaker 2: what is it about music that helps people so much

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Speaker 2: and also helps the people who create it, not just

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Speaker 2: the people who consume it or listen to it.

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Speaker 3: And where do you draw.

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Speaker 2: That line of feeling like you're capitalizing for a better

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Speaker 2: word off of someone's pain when it actually is really

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Speaker 2: coming from your heart.

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Speaker 3: You're not.

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Speaker 2: You don't do it for other reasons other than to

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Speaker 2: help those listening.

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Speaker 1: In yourself, No, I'm just trying to buy a boat.

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Speaker 1: I figured the the best way to make money in

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Speaker 1: music and buy a boat is writing really really sad

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Speaker 1: folk music. And I nailed it. You know, the feedback

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Speaker 1: that I got really early on when I wasn't even

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Speaker 1: doing this, you know, as a career I was. I

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Speaker 1: just bought a really cheat I went to guitar Center.

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Speaker 1: I had a little bit of money from like Christmas

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Speaker 1: and birthday saved up when I was in grad school,

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Speaker 1: and I went and bought this little little recording box

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Speaker 1: and a really cheap microphone. Because that I had always

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Speaker 1: wanted to record music. I used to do a thing

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Speaker 1: where my parents had the high fi system and you

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Speaker 1: would my mom had a little radio shack mic and

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Speaker 1: you could record yourself singing, and then you'd put that

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Speaker 1: tape in the in the stereo, put a new tape

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Speaker 1: in the recorder, and you're multi tracking.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: I was so fascin I was like, this is the

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Speaker 1: coolest thing ever. But the feedback that I got really

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Speaker 1: early on from those songs was really really powerful stuff. Literally,

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Speaker 1: people were like, you know this this I'm going through

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Speaker 1: a divorce right now or a lot of like death.

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Speaker 1: Death was a big bit because I wrote about that

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Speaker 1: early on. You know, my father died a year ago

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Speaker 1: and this song really helped me. Oh I never really,

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Speaker 1: I never looked back after that. I was like, well, clearly,

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Speaker 1: even if other people are put off by it, the

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Speaker 1: great majority of people that are talking to me are

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Speaker 1: saying that's helping them. So if it's helping me get

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Speaker 1: stuff out, if it's helping them feel less alone, then

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Speaker 1: that's just a win, right.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: Your music is described as inward looking, of course what

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Speaker 2: we're talking about. Can you tell us how you feel

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Speaker 2: when you visually see and feel people reacting in a

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Speaker 2: positive way to your music?

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Speaker 3: How does how does it make you feel?

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Speaker 1: It's great, It's it's so great. You have to like,

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Speaker 1: you have to check your ego, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: really do like performing. It's it's wonderful. It's one. I

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Speaker 1: feel so happy and comfortable on a stage. And part

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Speaker 1: of that is just we like the things that we

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Speaker 1: believe we're good at, and I think I'm half way

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Speaker 1: decent at doing that. But no, it's really I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've I've seen people sing along and cry and go

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Speaker 1: through a whole host of emotions and that's I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's it's incredible. But I you know, I also had

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Speaker 1: to temper that early on too, because you really do,

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Speaker 1: you start to feel like you're real important. I can

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Speaker 1: help people go through emotion that's dangerous even as a therapist,

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Speaker 1: like you have to recognize it's not you, you know,

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Speaker 1: you you're you're essentially just reflecting back what they're going

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Speaker 1: through and helping them move a little forward. There's no

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a magician or something. So I

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Speaker 1: do love it. I'm not gonna lie, but I always like,

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Speaker 1: I always like the grounding experience of like having somebody

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Speaker 1: that's just looking at their phone while I'm singing about

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Speaker 1: like the biggest heartbreak of my life and they could

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Speaker 1: give two craps about what's happening. That's actually kind of

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Speaker 1: beautiful too, because you're like, dude, you're just a dude

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Speaker 1: up here with the guitar man. Calm down, you know,

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Speaker 1: keeping it real.

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Speaker 3: That's that's very important, you know.

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Speaker 2: And speaking of that, though, why do you think it

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Speaker 2: is so hard for people to look inward? And you know,

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Speaker 2: and the better way of putting it is, why do

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Speaker 2: you think it's so hard for people to be able

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Speaker 2: to laugh at themselves?

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Speaker 1: It hurts it's scary. There's a lot more fun stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like there's really funny TV shows,

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Speaker 1: you know, and there's like there's cal zones, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, And those things are so much more fun.

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Speaker 3: Did you know cal zones?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's my favorite food.

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Speaker 2: It's gonna say, yeah, that's my that's my Bengo card.

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Speaker 1: It's not fun. Nobody wants to even for me, which

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Speaker 1: I really like. I enjoy being emotional as like, ask

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Speaker 1: my wife, you know, it's one of my favorite things. Oh,

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Speaker 1: here's another deep conversation. It's it's just because it's hard.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't it doesn't feel good, you know. It's it's

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Speaker 1: like listening to I would like more challenging me, like

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Speaker 1: a Radiohead record. It feels amazing, but it's so good

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Speaker 1: and it's complicated that it doesn't always feel like andy

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Speaker 1: on the first listen. Right, It's like a really good

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Speaker 1: meal that it takes a lot of time to digest.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't fault anybody that I tend to

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Speaker 1: think that people that are like really put off by

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Speaker 1: my music are you know, they might just not be

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Speaker 1: ready to experience or they just hate it. But that's fine. Too.

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Speaker 1: You know, people have a different preparedness, different readiness. You know,

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Speaker 1: I would never recommend, for example, somebody do therapy if

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Speaker 1: they're not ready for it. You know, it's just gonna

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Speaker 1: be a waste of time and money. There has to

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Speaker 1: be like a little spark of Okay, this thing happened,

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Speaker 1: I'm ready to start thinking about it. Well.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting if I look back across your career,

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Speaker 2: you've been making people feel even before you became a

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Speaker 2: known musician, just doing scores for television shows and creating

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Speaker 2: that emotional transition for things that we were seeing on television.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like little shows like what was it Gray's.

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Speaker 2: Anatomy, And you've been around doing stuff even behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes that people wouldn't even know besides helping them therapeutically

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Speaker 2: and now with your music, which is pretty incredible stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And like I mentioned before, I always loved you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a big Wes Anderson fan, so Royal Tannenbaum's Rushmore,

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Speaker 1: Grand Budapest Hotel, all those, and what an absolute genius

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Speaker 1: at at using music too to really highlight what's happening emotionally,

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Speaker 1: you know, And there's a there's a there's a scene

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Speaker 1: when in Royal Tennetbaumbs when Gwyneth Paltrow's character is walking

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Speaker 1: off a bus and it's the it's a Jackson Brown

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Speaker 1: song these days, but it was covered by it. I

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Speaker 1: believe it was Nico that covered it. And she's walking

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Speaker 1: off the bus in Slow My Mocean and like I

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Speaker 1: just remember seeing that, like ah, like that's the I

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Speaker 1: understand exactly what Ritchie, what Luke Wilson's character is feeling,

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Speaker 1: and that song with like if you change the song

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Speaker 1: or if you put no music on there, it just

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Speaker 1: doesn't hit the same way. So I always love them.

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Speaker 1: My music is is it even when it's on like

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Speaker 1: Jersey Shore or something like that, which which has happened before.

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Speaker 1: It's cool it. It's helping to convey something that would

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Speaker 1: be difficult to do just with with words or visuals alone.

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Speaker 2: I think, oh yeah, I think all picture is nothing

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Speaker 2: without the music. I mean, picture can be powerful, but

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Speaker 2: the music really just just take me to that next level.

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Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, I agree, Yeah, I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a snob, but not to say that,

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Speaker 1: not to say that there are you know, wildly powerful

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Speaker 1: images that stand completely on their own of course, like

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Speaker 1: a you know, it doesn't have to be a musical.

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Speaker 1: There's plays that are just life changing, you know. But

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Speaker 1: for for me, you know, I like when I always

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Speaker 1: like when there's music happening too.

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Speaker 2: What do you what songs in particular during those challenging

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Speaker 2: times depression, divorce, death, we've talked about all of it.

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Speaker 2: When you were going through those things in your life,

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Speaker 2: do you remember specific artists or bands that you turn to?

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Speaker 2: And on the flip side of that, how would you

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Speaker 2: suggest others utilize music to help them through challenging times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's got It's been different at different stages. I

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Speaker 1: remember David Wilcox who not never got like a huge

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Speaker 1: which is a great injustice. He's an American singer, songwriter,

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Speaker 1: incredible guitar player, and really like upfront sentimental. I think

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Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why maybe he never, you know,

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Speaker 1: completely blew up is because for some reason, sentimentality and

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Speaker 1: music is it hasn't been in vogue for a long time,

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Speaker 1: Like in the you know, I was thinking like John Denver,

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Speaker 1: who's one of my favorites of Annie's song, you fill

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Speaker 1: up my senses like night in the Forest, like you

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Speaker 1: can't you can't say that anymore. You can, but I

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Speaker 1: think people are like, uh, it's cringey or something. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's fine, but yet David Wilcox was one very early

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Speaker 1: on in in high school. A friend shared his music

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Speaker 1: with me, and I was a real rough go in

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Speaker 1: high school. I developed an eating disorder. I was really

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Speaker 1: depressed and it was it was it was a rough

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Speaker 1: rough patch. And there was one song in particular, it

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Speaker 1: was called hold It Up to the Light, and it's

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Speaker 1: about spirituality, and we don't have to go in on that,

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Speaker 1: but there was something about it that just made me

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Speaker 1: feel like, regardless of what's happening right now, things are

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Speaker 1: going to be okay later. Will Cox has always been

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Speaker 1: like a go to if there's a hard moment. Another

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Speaker 1: another big one for my last divorce record that I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I would have got through without it. It

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Speaker 1: was Mental Illness by Amy Mann, which which I think

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Speaker 1: she she finally won her first Grammy for, and that

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Speaker 1: record is that's a hard one to listen to, but

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Speaker 1: she's got a song on there called you Never Loved Me,

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Speaker 1: and that just that chorus that that book helped me

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Speaker 1: feel like it was okay to be angry about what

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Speaker 1: was happening. So no, I've got like a rolodex. It's

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Speaker 1: not that large, but of artists that kind of depending

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Speaker 1: on what I'm feeling, it's like, Okay, here's the prescription,

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Speaker 1: here's the pill, you know, And I mean, honestly, I

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Speaker 1: as far as how people get it, there's a million

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Speaker 1: different ways. But for me, I like to ask friends,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, what are they listening to? What's something

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Speaker 1: that's been really meaningful to you that you've heard in

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Speaker 1: the last year or something. Those are great conversations and

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Speaker 1: that's how I wouldn't have found David Wilcox. I probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have found Nick, Drake Soufi and Stevens artists that

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Speaker 1: have become my like just lifetime favorites.

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Speaker 2: What would you say if you ever got to meet them?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've gotten to me a couple folks that

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Speaker 1: I would I would say are heroes. And I kept

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Speaker 1: it real chill. I just said very point, like when

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Speaker 1: I met I met Ben Gibberd a death cab for

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Speaker 1: Cutie and I'm a really big fan of his and

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Speaker 1: I just I walked up and I said, Ben, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to bother you. I just wanted you to

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Speaker 1: know that Plans is a really really important record for me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for thanks for making that And he said thanks,

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Speaker 1: and I walked away. I don't want to bug anybody.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's probably heard that a few million times,

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Speaker 1: but I think I would just say thank you.

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Speaker 3: Would you?

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Speaker 2: I think it's interesting for people to hear that, because

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Speaker 2: it takes a lot to walk up to somebody that

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Speaker 2: you look up to like that, especially someone who's famous

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Speaker 2: or that you listen to their music, And it's nice

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Speaker 2: to know that you do that too with other people

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Speaker 2: in your industry, and for people to hear that, because

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Speaker 2: we are all human, it's not it's important, and especially

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Speaker 2: if someone's helping you to heal, why wouldn't you want

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Speaker 2: to take that opportunity to thank them and tell them.

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Speaker 1: I mean the day that, the day that I stopped

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Speaker 1: being a fan of music, I probably have no business

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Speaker 1: writing songs anymore, because then what am I doing? You know? Yeah? No,

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Speaker 1: I god no. There have been a lot of artists.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's Soufi and Stevens. Like I said, he's

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Speaker 1: probably probably my favorite ever, I think at this point,

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Speaker 1: and his music's gotten me through a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Well, William fitz Simmons, you have to keep I could

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Speaker 2: talk to you for hours. Just keep making that incredible

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Speaker 2: medicine called music that you do. And thank you for

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Speaker 2: all of that powerful music that you put out there.

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Speaker 2: And I hope everyone takes a listen. William Fitzimmons, your

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Speaker 2: new album is Incidental Contact and it's out now. And

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for being on Music Save Me

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Speaker 2: and helping us try to figure out what it is

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Speaker 2: exactly about music that helps us all so much.

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Speaker 3: And I hope you come back again soon.

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Speaker 1: I would love to thank you so much