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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane

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Speaker 1: never told your production of iHeart Radio, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: Activists around the World, and Annie of Court. Before we start,

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Speaker 1: both of us have discussed the fact that we're really

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Speaker 1: not on social media much. I will say I just

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Speaker 1: recently posted a pic because I was on my back

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Speaker 1: patio and there was a full moon. It was perfect,

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Speaker 1: look so sparkly. But uh, you know, other than that,

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Speaker 1: I stay off for the most part um and I

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Speaker 1: know you do too. I have to like bring your

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Speaker 1: attention to be like, hey, this is something you might

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Speaker 1: want to read. Look at this. I am as well

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Speaker 1: as Marissa friend of the show. We are your TikTok

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Speaker 1: guides as we've discovered as well. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if we've really gone to in depth about

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Speaker 1: why we chose not to go. So do you mind

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Speaker 1: telling us what made you decide to do less social media? Yeah? Sure,

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Speaker 1: I'll try to condense it. I guess it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a long story, but essentially I was never I was

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Speaker 1: always kind of afraid by it. I remember people making

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Speaker 1: me get Facebook when it first came out, ish, like

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Speaker 1: they set up my Facebook page because I wouldn't do it,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't. I had been known to do this,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't me being like I'm too cool for that.

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Speaker 1: I was actually just scared of it. Um. I was

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Speaker 1: scared of being judged and feeling like I wasn't popular,

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Speaker 1: I guess um. And then I had had bad experiences

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Speaker 1: with messaging on platforms around video games that caused me

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Speaker 1: to step off, and so I already had a healthy

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Speaker 1: fear around that, like harassment. And so when I got

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Speaker 1: to college, I got on, but I was still very

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Speaker 1: hesitant to ever post, and I just felt so embarrassed.

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Speaker 1: I want to make sure this is coming from a

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Speaker 1: very personal space. I don't want anybody to feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm judging them for their habits. But for me, I

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Speaker 1: just felt embarrassed and immediately I would regret it. After

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Speaker 1: I posted anything, I was like, Oh, no, what if

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Speaker 1: it can be read this way? What if it's misinterpreted

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Speaker 1: like this? What if it is really bad and I

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Speaker 1: don't realize it, or what if it's just it gets

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Speaker 1: one like? And then I just feel silly for posting it.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't. It was never fun for me. I'll admit,

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Speaker 1: like every now and then I'd get one post and

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Speaker 1: it would get like fifty likes, and that'd be great,

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Speaker 1: but it was still I was still living in fear

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Speaker 1: of the one person who would be like, actually this

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Speaker 1: is really problem about it, or actually you're you should

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Speaker 1: go away and be quiet, which is silly, but I

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Speaker 1: did have a fear of it. It was never a

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Speaker 1: fun experience. I had to do it for work, so

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Speaker 1: it became kind of a work stressor. And then during

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Speaker 1: the pandemic, I I tried to get on it more

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Speaker 1: because I thought, you know, you have more time, this

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Speaker 1: is the way of feeling connection. And then it just

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Speaker 1: after all of the gracial violence of Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 1: and the pandemic, I already felt weird for being like

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Speaker 1: I'm okay when I knew so many people weren't okay.

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Speaker 1: I just stopped because I didn't really like it anyway.

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Speaker 1: And then I couldn't figure out a way to make

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Speaker 1: it something that I didn't regret every time I used it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's the story, that's all that whole thing. That's

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Speaker 1: definitely a whole thing, um, And I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: I definitely feel that same way that anxiety. I've talked

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Speaker 1: about with other people. I've actually asked other the creators,

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Speaker 1: like how do you do this without feeling the judgment

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Speaker 1: or feeling completely uh impaired in and moving forward writing

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Speaker 1: something that you know is meaningful and then damned if

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Speaker 1: you do, damned if you don't, because if you're silent

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Speaker 1: and like that says a lot, you're not saying anything.

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Speaker 1: You haven't even talked about this movement. And of course,

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Speaker 1: something that I often reminded when I worked with teenagers

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Speaker 1: be like Internet forever. Even if you think you've deleted it,

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Speaker 1: you've probably not deleted it fast enough. Um. And remember

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Speaker 1: it we say really ridiculous things at times and thinking

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Speaker 1: that we're being funny. So I've always constantly going back

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Speaker 1: to like did this sound bad? This is sound inappropriate?

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Speaker 1: Is this ablest? Is this racist? Is you know? All

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Speaker 1: those things? Because what you think at that time you

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Speaker 1: might not understand has a lot of way behind it

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Speaker 1: and swayed behind it. Um and yeah, And the other

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Speaker 1: part is what being constantly judged for what we say

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Speaker 1: or what we might not say. I will say that

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Speaker 1: I was trying to find it because recently I saw

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Speaker 1: an interaction involving stuff I've never told you episode, and

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Speaker 1: a listener wonderful talking about how she really loved the

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Speaker 1: episode and that we should all listen to it or

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Speaker 1: people should go listen to it, and how it was

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Speaker 1: really helpful. Random person, random but I don't know what

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Speaker 1: it was, came through it and was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: what is wrong with you? Moms should be in the

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Speaker 1: kitchen or taking care of their children and not be

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Speaker 1: on podcasts. And the response for the listeners obviously never

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Speaker 1: listened because they didn't say anything about moms. And then

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Speaker 1: they were like, of course not oh you're so liberal

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. And they responded back and

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Speaker 1: you'll never find a man. Of course, I'm the immediate response.

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Speaker 1: So you'll never find a man. You'll be unhappy because

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Speaker 1: you do these things. And then the again, the listener's

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Speaker 1: response was I'm engaged, but not none of your business,

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Speaker 1: and of course the response was the poor dude. Whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's such a bad interaction. And I will say for

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Speaker 1: the listener who did this, I was trying to go

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Speaker 1: back to it, kudos because they handled it beautifully. Every

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Speaker 1: day was like perfect, and I really just wanted to

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Speaker 1: like clap. I kept liking their responsible was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I get them, because it's obvious they were trolling. Like

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Speaker 1: all they saw was it was a person with a

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Speaker 1: no profile, zero profile, picture numbers behind their names. Obviously

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Speaker 1: one of those bought things. And it is it's kind

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Speaker 1: of one of those things. I'm like, this is the

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Speaker 1: interaction that that makes me petrify. They the person who

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Speaker 1: was writing for us and writing in defense of themselves,

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Speaker 1: were did a beautiful job and like, go go away,

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Speaker 1: troll essentially, but I don't feel like I have that aspect.

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Speaker 1: When we get we will get even emails. Literally one

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Speaker 1: was like, hey Annie Till, stop having your fire other

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Speaker 1: co hosts. I can't stand her. I tried to skip

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Speaker 1: over her voice and it's really annoying like that. And

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Speaker 1: I'm the one who in response and I was like, yeah, things,

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Speaker 1: I'll let her know, you know, so that they understood, Hey,

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Speaker 1: we don't have people doing our accounts. It's us. And

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Speaker 1: this is one of the many reasons I hate doing

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Speaker 1: social media. And honestly, I think I've gotten worse since

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Speaker 1: I've been on stuff. Mom never told you, because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't like it. I don't like this bit to

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Speaker 1: it and it feels so vulnerable and it feels so gross,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, being a woman, you and I have talked

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Speaker 1: many times when we've talked about our episodes, being petrified

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Speaker 1: about doing an episode because we know trolls come at

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Speaker 1: us at any point and just bracing ourselves for that. Right,

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Speaker 1: just thinking about it gives me an anxiety. But okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm back. So there is we've talked. We're talking a

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Speaker 1: lot about social media. Everybody's probably like, what, how, what

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Speaker 1: does this have anything to do with activists. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of ups and downs again when it comes

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Speaker 1: to social media, and the rules and exceptions are ever changing,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's that's just a good reminder of

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Speaker 1: like what used to be okay five years ago not

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Speaker 1: okay today. You need to keep up. We need to

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Speaker 1: keep up and figure out why because we have to

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Speaker 1: progress um and including what is acceptable and what isn't

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Speaker 1: an online interactions again, like the d M sliding once

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Speaker 1: upon a time was cute and like could be a

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Speaker 1: meet cute, but today's I'm like, hey, just be careful

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Speaker 1: of what you're standing out there, especially those who think

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Speaker 1: the picks are cute. They're not cute. They're not cute.

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Speaker 1: That's porn in sexual harassment. Just so you know, today

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Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about one woman who not only

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Speaker 1: saw firsthand the toxicity of social media, but decided to

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Speaker 1: take a methodical approach to expose the underlying issues behind it.

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Speaker 1: And we're talking about as Mina Roda yes Um. And

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Speaker 1: we have had several episodes talking about the abuse many

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Speaker 1: women and non binary folks experience online, especially those from

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Speaker 1: marginalized communities, and Droda is no stranger to the issue

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Speaker 1: and has created a broader conversation about the toxicity of

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Speaker 1: social media. Jodia graduated from the University of British Columbia

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Speaker 1: with the political science degree, going on to get her

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Speaker 1: masters at the London School of Economics, and she soon

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Speaker 1: made her way to working as a researcher in technology

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Speaker 1: and human rights at Amnesty International, where she spearheaded the

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Speaker 1: work on the Violence and Abuse against Women on the

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Speaker 1: Internet whole project she was working on to kind of

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Speaker 1: about this um. Within her work, she conducted research for

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Speaker 1: different high profile figures on social media and was able

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Speaker 1: to get data on the experiences of many of the

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Speaker 1: women who were being harassed and targeted online. And with

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Speaker 1: this data she has been able to write out different

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Speaker 1: articles and policies on the impact of it all. In

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Speaker 1: her report for the Troll Patrol Project Great Name, which

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Speaker 1: was yes with Amnesty International and it was quote a

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Speaker 1: joint effort by human rights researchers, technical experts, and thousands

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Speaker 1: of women and thousands of online volunteers to build the

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Speaker 1: world's largest crowdsourced data set of online abuse against women.

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Speaker 1: They were able to give specific statistics of online harassment

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Speaker 1: right and in it they stated that seven point one

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Speaker 1: percent of tweets sent to the women in the studies

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Speaker 1: were problematic or abusive. Uh this amounts to one point

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Speaker 1: one million tweets mentioning seven and seventy eight women across

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Speaker 1: the year, or one every thirty seconds. So I'm quoting

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Speaker 1: this from their report. So if you're if you're wondering,

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Speaker 1: women of color, Black, Asian, Latin X, and mixed race

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Speaker 1: women where thirty four percent more likely to be mentioned

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Speaker 1: in abusive or problematic tweets than white women. Black women

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Speaker 1: were disproportionately targeted, being eighty four percent more likely than

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Speaker 1: white women to be mentioned in abusive or problematic tweets.

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Speaker 1: Um An online abuse targets women from across the political spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Politicians and journalists face similar levels of online abuse, and

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Speaker 1: we observed both liberals and conservatives alike, as well as

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Speaker 1: left and right leaning media organizations were all targeted. Yeah

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Speaker 1: Um and Jodia's work has led to a deeper conversation

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Speaker 1: on who is being held responsible for these violations. Um

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Speaker 1: Jodia authored a report titled Toxic Twitter Violence and Abuse

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Speaker 1: against Women Online in eighteen showing that Twitter, specifically quote

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Speaker 1: is failing in its responsibility to respect women's rights online

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Speaker 1: by failing to adequately investigate and respond to reports of

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Speaker 1: violence and abuse in a transparent manner, which leads many

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Speaker 1: women to silence or censored themselves on the platform. And

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Speaker 1: after demands from Amnesty International for Twitter to release data

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Speaker 1: about reports of violence and abuse against women, they finally

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Speaker 1: did so in December, but it showed many weaknesses and holes,

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Speaker 1: and not only their data, but the policies placed by

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Speaker 1: Twitter to protect their users. As Dirtyo wrote, Quote, the

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Speaker 1: violence and abuse many women experience on Twitter has a

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Speaker 1: detrimental effect on their right to express themselves equally, freely

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Speaker 1: and without fear. Instead of strengthening women's voices, the violence

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Speaker 1: and abuse many women experience on the platform, leaves women

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Speaker 1: to self censor what they post, limit their interactions, and

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Speaker 1: even drives women off Twitter completely. At a watershed moment

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Speaker 1: when women around the world are using their collective power

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Speaker 1: to speak out and amplify their voices through social media platform,

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Speaker 1: Twitter's failure to adequately respect human rights and effectively tackle

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Speaker 1: violence and abuse on the platform means that instead of

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Speaker 1: women using their voices to quote impact the world, many

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Speaker 1: women are instead being pushed backwards to a culture of silence.

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Speaker 1: And with her research and data, Amnesty and other organizations

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Speaker 1: have laid out plans to help curb the violence being

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Speaker 1: aimed at the marginalized community on social media platforms, but

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Speaker 1: many of the platforms have not taken the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: combat the problem on a larger scale. In her article

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Speaker 1: for the Worldwide Web Foundation, Jodia writes, quote, the digital

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Speaker 1: world has become a new front in the assault on

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Speaker 1: the freedom and power of women. Being online while female

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Speaker 1: means being disproportionately at risk of abuse, and when you're

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Speaker 1: a woman of color or LGBT plus or both, the

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Speaker 1: abuse can be even worse. Globally, thirty eight percent of

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Speaker 1: women have reported being personally subject to online violence. According

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Speaker 1: to the latest numbers from the Economist Intelligence Unit, this

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Speaker 1: rises to forty five percent for Gen zs and millennials.

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Speaker 1: This is consistent with a web Foundation survey which found

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Speaker 1: fifty of young women and girls at experienced abuse online. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so there's so many other reports that she has

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Speaker 1: done and has really done an amazing job specifically finding

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Speaker 1: AI to get this data that is so important, and

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Speaker 1: how she has continued to push for the bigger conversation

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Speaker 1: and trying to provide safety for women online. UM. In July,

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Speaker 1: Giordia organized over two notable women like famous women and

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Speaker 1: journalists and politicians in an open letter demanding action to

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Speaker 1: stop the online abuse and violence. I think that's still ongoing,

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Speaker 1: as we can all kind of see. And so we've

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Speaker 1: talked about even with Bridget when she is on about

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Speaker 1: women on the internet, we know this is problematic. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: she has made a giant career UM in trying to

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Speaker 1: protect women online and in technology. After she left Emnesty

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Speaker 1: International with working with him over I think eight years,

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Speaker 1: she moved on to the Open Rights Group, which helped

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Speaker 1: pen a lot of this data and research and put

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Speaker 1: it out there for us to know she worked with

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Speaker 1: the Worldwide Foundation, which we mentioned earlier. Um and she

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Speaker 1: is now a part of Bubble, the dating app um

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Speaker 1: as the safety policy lead. So that makes me feel better.

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Speaker 1: We've already talked about how Bumble has done a great

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Speaker 1: job or a better rather than most online dating sites

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Speaker 1: and trying to protect women as best they can with

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Speaker 1: the ever changing tactics when it comes to the Internet.

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Speaker 1: But they have done a great job and trying to

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Speaker 1: provide a safe space for women and non binary folks

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Speaker 1: on that site. Uh. Yes. She was also named BBCs

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Speaker 1: Women One for her work, and I'm sure she is

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Speaker 1: charging her way through doing so much more and trying

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Speaker 1: to create this narrative and trying to find safe spaces

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Speaker 1: for women and marginalized floakes on uh the interwebs. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think it's hugely important work because so much

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Speaker 1: of what we read here that she said, I was like, yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: Like people are leaving her voices are being censored. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's been too long that we've just accepted platforms

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Speaker 1: are going to allow for our abuse and that's fine, right,

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Speaker 1: And I think that having a saturation of you know,

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Speaker 1: really terrible Internet users on a platform is not good

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Speaker 1: for anyway, right, good, right, yes, go away, and thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for all the work you're doing,

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Speaker 1: and also thank you listeners. As Samantha is talking about,

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Speaker 1: we see you and we appreciate when you handle those

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Speaker 1: kind of trolls for us, it really like means the

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Speaker 1: world absolutely and we do like as much as we

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Speaker 1: don't post that often, we see your comments like yes,

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Speaker 1: and we appreciate them. So thank you, thank you, thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you. If you would like to contact us, you

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Speaker 1: can email us at stuff Dia Mom Stuff at iHeart

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Speaker 1: mea dot com. You can find us on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: Mom's Top podcast or on Instagram at stuff I've Never

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Speaker 1: Told You. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Christina, and thanks to you for listening Stuff

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Speaker 1: when ever told you this protection of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcast from my Heart Radio, you can check

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Speaker 1: out the heart radio app Apple podcast, where if you

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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows no more o