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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. I'm Rob Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going to be

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Speaker 3: talking about the ultimate classic of modern B movies, Troll two.

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Speaker 3: This has got to be the one, right, Like, even

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Speaker 3: if you rarely watch B movies, you might have seen

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Speaker 3: this one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. This is one of the titans of bad film,

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Speaker 2: of B films, and it's one where on one hand,

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Speaker 2: some listeners might say, Hey, this is only the second

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Speaker 2: episode of Weird House Cinema. I can't believe you're doing

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Speaker 2: Troll two already, But really the reality is we had

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Speaker 2: to go ahead and do Troll too. Otherwise listeners would

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Speaker 2: be asking for it, they would be demanding it, and

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Speaker 2: we had You know, this is just the hospitable thing

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Speaker 2: to do, and we don't piss on hospitality on this show.

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Speaker 2: I do want to add a quick note some of

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Speaker 2: if you were probably listening to this and you're like,

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Speaker 2: what is Weird House Cinema. What is going on? This

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Speaker 2: is a science and culture podcast. Why are you talking

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Speaker 2: about beef, be movies and weird films? Well, this is

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Speaker 2: something we're trying. This is something we just kicked off.

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Speaker 2: Joe and I have been talking about doing a weird

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Speaker 2: movie standalone podcast for a while. We were looking at

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Speaker 2: other options, and it was decided, partially by us, partially

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Speaker 2: by powers on High, that we would do this as

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Speaker 2: a little extra episode that airs on Fridays. I don't

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Speaker 2: think they're going to let us publish it at midnight,

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Speaker 2: because I don't think that would be good business. But

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Speaker 2: you can think of it as the midnight offering from

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Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 3: Right, the principalities and powers to create it must come

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Speaker 3: out in the daytime, but you can still enjoy it

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Speaker 3: in the daytime. Watch the movie at night and then

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Speaker 3: listen in the day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or you can skip it. If weird films aren't

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Speaker 2: your thing, just skip it and you can watch our

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Speaker 2: core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, which are

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Speaker 2: still going to come out Tuesdays and Thursdays.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: I think it's good to get into try too early

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Speaker 3: in the lifetime of this series because Troll two is

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Speaker 3: a nuclear weapon of thematic theft. It brings all of

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Speaker 3: the themes mainly meat and vegetables are the themes of

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Speaker 3: Troll two. In fact, just before we started recording, we

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Speaker 3: were talking about that obnoxious mid twenty tens bacon craze

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Speaker 3: where suddenly there was just ironic bacon on everything. You know,

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Speaker 3: there would be like a there's a website called the

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Speaker 3: Art of the Mustache that has a logo with a

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Speaker 3: guy in a top hat in a monocle, and they

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Speaker 3: sell bacon flavored whiskey. And I don't know where all

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Speaker 3: that came from, but I strongly suspect the pork industry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And one place that it did not take root though,

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Speaker 2: is definitely the town of nil Bog. Nil Bog is

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Speaker 2: the setting for the movie Troll two, and this is

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Speaker 2: where the goblins live Nilbog. Of course his goblins spelled backwards.

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Speaker 2: This is a strange town of some we're in America.

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Speaker 2: We get kind of a Utah feel from this. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And it's here that we find an American family on

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Speaker 2: vacation running a foul of goblins and an ancient witch

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Speaker 2: who uses stone hinge magic in order to turn people

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Speaker 2: into like vegetable goo so that vegetarian goblins can eat them.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I would say that is the plot in a nutshell,

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Speaker 3: it's that there are vegetarian goblins who eat people, but

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Speaker 3: they have to turn them from meat into vegetarian green

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Speaker 3: jello before they can eat them, and they worship Stonehenge.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, let's just go ahead and listen to

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Speaker 2: a little bit of the audio from the original trailer.

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Speaker 4: Good lad, I'm sorry we had a small miss out.

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Speaker 2: Here are the Keyes here.

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Speaker 4: A nice stay in Millmond.

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Speaker 1: You in our city.

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Speaker 2: You're telling the same story, Josh. Goddles don't exist, Gossins

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Speaker 2: don't exist.

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Speaker 3: And remember thereating good boy, didn't we kids us to

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Speaker 3: like your first love?

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Speaker 4: Ice cream? Delicious?

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Speaker 2: And so this is you know, we're talking about what

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Speaker 2: makes a good weird film or a good bad film,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, the kind of film we want to talk

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Speaker 2: about on the show. And really this does have everything.

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Speaker 2: It has a weird plot, it has weird performances, it

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Speaker 2: has it has like just weird choices in how they're

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Speaker 2: going to try and tell this story. It just it

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Speaker 2: just brings it all. And at the same time, it's

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Speaker 2: an exceedingly watchable film, Like there's never a dull moment

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Speaker 2: in Troll Too.

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Speaker 3: It's impossible to be bored while watching Troll two. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: this is the kind of movie that also it's not

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Speaker 3: just entertaining. It sucks people in. It's like a magnet

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Speaker 3: if you put it on in a house and people

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Speaker 3: are doing things in other rooms that people will come

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Speaker 3: from the other rooms to the troll too. They come

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Speaker 3: from all over to kneel at the foot of stone Hinge.

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Speaker 3: And it's It's also got a kind of cultural sensibility

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Speaker 3: that exists basically nowhere else because it's part very much

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Speaker 3: italianissimo bad horror. You know, it's very Italian, but it's

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Speaker 3: also very utah and so we were calling it last

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Speaker 3: night Utalian.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's that's a good way of looking yeh.

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Speaker 2: Because the filmmakers themselves, most of the crew were Italian.

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Speaker 2: Then the actors are all American and a lot of

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Speaker 2: them are just very local, non actor American. Now, this

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Speaker 2: film came out in nineteen ninety, so I want to

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Speaker 2: set the stage a little bit here. You don't really

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Speaker 2: need to understand what was going on politically or culturally

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Speaker 2: in the world for the most part to understand Troll two.

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Speaker 2: But Troll two is definitely what I refer to as

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Speaker 2: a Gromlin film. Okay, so it's one of the many,

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Speaker 2: many films about small, mischievous monsters to come out in

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Speaker 2: the wake of nineteen eighty four's Grimlins. So I think

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Speaker 2: if you've ever walked, if you ever walked around a

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Speaker 2: video rental store, you know what I'm talking about. Because

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Speaker 2: we didn't just have Grimlins and then eventually Grimlins too.

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Speaker 2: You had Goolies, you had critters, you had hobgoblins, you

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Speaker 2: had Munchies, and you had these troll films.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know about Munchies. I had to look it up.

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Speaker 3: It looks gross, it looks yeah, nasty.

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Speaker 2: So Troll two is marketed as a sequel to the

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Speaker 2: Gromlin film Troll, which came out in nineteen eighty six,

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Speaker 2: which has nothing to do with Troll too. Troll was

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Speaker 2: a Charles Band production, and of course Charles Band is

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Speaker 2: a notable maker of weird films. I think we'll definitely

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Speaker 2: come back to Charles Band on these episodes in the future.

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Speaker 3: I think he made the puppet Master movies, didn't he.

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Speaker 2: He did one thing with Charles Band to keep in mind,

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Speaker 2: without small creatures. He does like small creatures, but he

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Speaker 2: was more serious early on in his career, and I

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Speaker 2: think he kind of found a niche later on is

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Speaker 2: making sort of intentionally bad films to a certain extent,

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Speaker 2: you know, certainly once you get into like Evil Bong

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Speaker 2: and the Gingerbread film. What it was a Ginger Dead

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Speaker 2: I'm not I can't remember.

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Speaker 4: Off hand the ginger dead man that was him.

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Speaker 2: He did some sort of gingerbread man evil creature thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: But before that was Puppet Masters, and then before even

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Speaker 2: that were some films that I hope we'll get back

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Speaker 2: to on this show. But Patrol from nineteen eighty six

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Speaker 2: was definitely an attempt to cash in on the Grimlin craze.

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Speaker 2: It starred the wonderful Michael Moriarty is Harry Potter senior, Yes,

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Speaker 2: firmly establishing Harry Potter as a fictional character prior to

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Speaker 2: the Harry Potter books. Atreyu himself, Noah Hathaway was Harry

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Speaker 2: Potter Junior in that film. And you also had Julia,

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Speaker 2: Luis Dreyfus and Sonny Bono showing up as various in

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Speaker 2: various roles. But it was not there's no connection here

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Speaker 2: between Troll one and Troll two. Troll two is an

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Speaker 2: Italian production from shock Master Joe Diamatto. That's the producer.

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Speaker 3: And this is actually something that was pretty common for

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Speaker 3: Italian films at the times, like a lot of Italian

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Speaker 3: horror movies would be marketed as a sequel to an

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Speaker 3: existing movie, even though they had nothing to do with

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Speaker 3: it whatsoever. So, for example, the Italian movie Zombie was

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Speaker 3: marketed as a sequel to Dona the Dead even though

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Speaker 3: it was not made by George Romero, had nothing to

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Speaker 3: do with Dona the Dead, it just wasn't related. And

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Speaker 3: there are other movies by Claudio Fergosso, the director of

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Speaker 3: Troll two, that were marketed as movies in an existing franchise.

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Speaker 3: So example, they were marketed as like a movie in

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Speaker 3: the Texas Chainsaw Massacre franchise, even though they weren't.

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Speaker 2: Right, and in that case the film in question being

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Speaker 2: night Killer, it was so Texas Chainsaw Masaker had a

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Speaker 2: different title in Italy and then it's the sequel to that.

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Speaker 2: So it's not instantly recognizable to a lot of Western

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Speaker 2: film fans that this would be marketed as a sequel

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Speaker 2: to Texas Chainsaw Masaker.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in Italy, Texas Chainsaw was non a pre or

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Speaker 3: I don't know how to pronounce it, non a prete

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Speaker 3: de la puerta, I think, which means like, do not

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Speaker 3: open that door.

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Speaker 2: Ah, well, that's great. I love a good don't film.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's talk about some of the people

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Speaker 2: of note here. So really one of one of the

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Speaker 2: main two people to focus on is the director himself,

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Speaker 2: Claudio Fergasso born in nineteen fifty one, still very much

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Speaker 2: alive as of this recording and still making films, I believe.

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Speaker 2: While Troll two is probably his most well known film

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Speaker 2: in the US, he's had quite a long career in

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Speaker 2: the Italian film world, with some of his pictures shooting

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Speaker 2: in the United States. He has thirty director credits forty

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Speaker 2: screenwriting credits, including such notable entries as Monster Dog starring

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Speaker 2: Alice Cooper and then Shocking Dark, which was a Bruno

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Speaker 2: Mattei directed knockoff of Aliens and Terminator, and it's kind

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Speaker 2: of infamous in its own right for being just a

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Speaker 2: blatant knockoff.

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Speaker 3: Well mainly from what I'm understand, I haven't seen that one.

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Speaker 3: The box art is just the cover of Terminator. I

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Speaker 3: mean it's just, yeah, straight out James Cameron's Terminator, A

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Speaker 3: slight like a traced version of it.

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Speaker 4: Pretty much.

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Speaker 3: But the movie is more a ripoff of Aliens, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, Like I was watching some clips from it,

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Speaker 2: and it's clearly like, let's go make Aliens, guys, let's

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Speaker 2: do it, but with a much cheaper budget.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, Aliens was a prolifically ripped off filmy. Like Aliens

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Speaker 3: has more copycats than maybe any other movie I can

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Speaker 3: think of. It really spawned the space marine genre, which

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Speaker 3: was everywhere in the eighties and nineties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's been ripped off at every level too.

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Speaker 2: It's been ripped off at the shocking dark level. But

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Speaker 2: also just so many films would not exist, Like they're clearly,

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Speaker 2: you know, feeding on that same energy, they're tapping into

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Speaker 2: that same vein.

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Speaker 3: But now so a lot of the directors, writer directors,

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Speaker 3: AU tours who create horror movies, you might be, I

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Speaker 3: don't know, you might be tempted to kind of just

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Speaker 3: call them hacks, like they're just phoning in some work.

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Speaker 3: They're pointing the camera at things, they're telling the actors

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Speaker 3: what to say, and then they get on with it.

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Speaker 3: I get the feeling from at least Troll two that

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Speaker 3: Fragaso very much sees himself as an artist, and he

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Speaker 3: is in there in the movie.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely. So for instance, two of the names

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Speaker 2: already mentioned Joe Diamatto and Bruno Mattei. So Joe Diamatto,

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Speaker 2: I really have enjoyed some of his films, but he

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Speaker 2: was very much a in the business of titillation, like

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Speaker 2: what can I do violently or erotically on the screen

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Speaker 2: that will we'll bring viewers in. And then Bruno and

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Speaker 2: Fragoso points this out as well in interviews, like Bruno

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Speaker 2: was very much like, let's make some money, let's get

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Speaker 2: let's make some money. Let's go do a predator movie.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing. Let's I'm gonna make aliens, write me a

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Speaker 2: script for aliens. We'll call it shocking Dark, you know,

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Speaker 2: Like that was very much the vibe. But for Gaso,

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things that's fascinating about him

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Speaker 2: is that he, yeah, he did seem to think of

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Speaker 2: himself as as this like legitimate autour. You know, that

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Speaker 2: he had had something to say in these films, and

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Speaker 2: that can be vital to having like a really successful

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Speaker 2: weird film or just a really amusing B film because

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Speaker 2: somebody cares. I think we've said We've pointed out this

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Speaker 2: out before. To really enjoy a well, any film, but

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Speaker 2: especially a B movie, somebody has to be serious about it.

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Speaker 2: There's got to be an actor in there, or an

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Speaker 2: FX person, a cinematographer. Somebody's got to be serious about

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Speaker 2: saying something with this film.

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Speaker 3: With Troll two, you really get the feeling that for Gosso,

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Speaker 3: this is not just a plot device. He really means

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Speaker 3: it when he says that evil can only be defeated

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Speaker 3: by the power of goodness and by processed meat, like

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Speaker 3: he really thinks that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because we do have to drive home that just

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Speaker 2: because you have ideas and just because you have something

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Speaker 2: you want to say, it doesn't mean you're capable of

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Speaker 2: creating interesting cinema. It doesn't mean you're capable of actually

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Speaker 2: pushing those ideas through to the finished product. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that those ideas are going to survive the budgetary

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Speaker 2: constraints or the you know or you know, your your

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Speaker 2: limited ability to you know, to cast professional actors in

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Speaker 2: the role, et cetera. But still you can often see

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Speaker 2: that the effort is there in the finished product, like

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Speaker 2: at some point somebody cared and I should point out

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Speaker 2: that Fragasso seems he seems pretty open about this in

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Speaker 2: recent interviews I've seen with him, where he's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I really you know, I I I really thought I was,

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Speaker 2: you know, as a serious filmmaker when I was making

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Speaker 2: a Control Too or or or night Killer or whatever

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Speaker 2: the case may be. And I think he's kind of

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Speaker 2: like sees like, oh, yeah, maybe I maybe I should

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Speaker 2: have listened a little more to Bruno when he was

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Speaker 2: telling me, No, you're making a horror movie, you're making

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Speaker 2: a slasher movie, you're making a monster movie. Just go

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Speaker 2: out and make it. But you know, he wanted to

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Speaker 2: inject this this art or in this and or this

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Speaker 2: commentary on what he was doing.

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Speaker 3: You get a sense of art artistic ego also in

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Speaker 3: his work, in the very best classical sense, like a

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Speaker 3: John Milton kind of ego, the person who believes that

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Speaker 3: his message is very important and he's the only one

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Speaker 3: who can say it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, of course these are not these films are

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Speaker 2: not just Fragaso's voice. Also there's the voice of his

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Speaker 2: co screenwriter and I believe partner, Rosella Drudi. Now. Drudi

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Speaker 2: was born in nineteen sixty three. Frequent collaborator with her

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Speaker 2: husband and seemed to share his ambition for exploring social

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Speaker 2: commentary and psychology in their films. As John O'Brien pointed

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Speaker 2: out in a recent piece for sci Fi Wire, she

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Speaker 2: described Troll two as a quote ferocious analysis of today's society.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's definitely about today's society where where you

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Speaker 3: can't get any eggs at the store because the guy

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Speaker 3: there says black and he only gives you unrefrigerated milk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just sitting there on the shelf, that nil bog milk.

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Speaker 3: It's definitely about today's society where when you move into

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Speaker 3: a new neighborhood, they bring you a cheesecake, but it's

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Speaker 3: made with wild nettles that turn your body into green jello. Definitely,

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Speaker 3: it points out how in society today you can take

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Speaker 3: a month off of work by just calling your boss

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Speaker 3: the night before and saying, Hey, I'm going to be

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Speaker 3: gone for a month. Can you take care of that

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Speaker 3: business for me?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So basically Troll two is just wall to wall wonderful

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Speaker 2: little dialogue exchanges between characters who are supposed to be human, or,

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Speaker 2: at least in the case of the nil Boggians, they're

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Speaker 2: supposed to be goblins pretending to be humans. But everybody

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Speaker 2: says things that no human has ever said, that no

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Speaker 2: human would ever say, things that just don't sound like

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Speaker 2: authentic human dialogue. Like it seems as if the entire

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Speaker 2: movie is actually populated by goblins trying to pass themselves

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Speaker 2: off as human beings.

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Speaker 3: I want to come back to this point about the

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Speaker 3: lack of verisimilitude later on, because I think that is

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Speaker 3: the defining esthetic feature of the movie, and we should

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Speaker 3: explore that in a bit.

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Speaker 2: Yes, let's go ahead and go through the rest of

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Speaker 2: the cast. For what it's worth here, we have to

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Speaker 2: mention Michael Paul Stevenson, who plays the boy Joshua Waits, notably,

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Speaker 2: but mostly in terms of troll Too, for making the

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Speaker 2: two thousand and nine documentary Best Worst Movie, which is

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Speaker 2: an exploration of what this film is and where it

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Speaker 2: came from. But he's also directed other things. He directed

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Speaker 2: the twenty seventeen Bob Odenkirk movie Girlfriend's Day.

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Speaker 3: I saw a Best Worst Movie at a screening here

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Speaker 3: in Atlanta at a local theater, and George Hardy, the

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Speaker 3: actor who plays the father and the family in trol Too,

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Speaker 3: was there to answer questions at the screening. It was

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Speaker 3: really special.

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Speaker 2: The dentist with the linebacker's job that plays the dad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, well I think so. Here's another thing about

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Speaker 3: Troll two, and we should describe the plot in more

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Speaker 3: detail in a minute here, But so it is about

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Speaker 3: a family who goes to this goblin infested town. The family,

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Speaker 3: I think is clearly supposed to be modeled on the

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Speaker 3: family from Poltergeist, because we just recently watched Poltergeist, and

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Speaker 3: I would be shocked if in casting George Hardy they

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Speaker 3: weren't trying to go for Craig T.

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Speaker 4: Nelson.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. He is kind of like a you know, bottom

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Speaker 2: basement Craig T. Nelson. Yeah, yeah, and definitely he's great

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Speaker 2: in it as well. But a couple of the real

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Speaker 2: standout performances for me are from, you know, from other characters.

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Speaker 2: For instance, there's an actor by the name of Deborah

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Speaker 2: Reid who plays the witch Credence leonor Gilgod in this

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Speaker 2: particular movie, and this is this is pretty much her

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Speaker 2: only acting role, but she just acts her heart and

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Speaker 2: face off in every scene. Like you get the impression

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Speaker 2: that Fragaso was just saying, like, I like what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: But go ahead and do it like fifty times what

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Speaker 2: you're doing now, just more, Just give me more of that.

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Speaker 4: He's like, it's just like.

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Speaker 3: George Lucas, a faster, louder, more intense.

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Speaker 4: Yes. But she, but she takes it to heart.

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Speaker 3: Credence slays in this movie. She is so good she is.

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Speaker 3: It's it's a very melodramatic community theater type performance. But

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Speaker 3: she's the kind of actor who you would see in

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Speaker 3: an amateur community theater production. But she would be the

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Speaker 3: standout actor, head and shoulders above everybody else in that Like,

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't be able to stop talking about her after

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Speaker 3: it was over.

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Speaker 2: I would say that it is perhaps one of the

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Speaker 2: most memorable overacting jobs of all time. Yeah, it's and

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Speaker 2: it's almost not overacting because it fits in this film perfectly,

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Speaker 2: Like it's it's not like everybody else is doing like

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Speaker 2: a real refined and professional time and she's just hamming

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Speaker 2: it up. No, I mean, this is the perfect place

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Speaker 2: for this level of hamminess.

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Speaker 3: Uh huh, Now what about I know you wanted to

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Speaker 3: talk about the guy who runs the general store in Nilbog,

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Speaker 3: who the guy who's like, we don't have any bacon

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Speaker 3: her eggs here, that's oh in the coffee. No coffee,

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Speaker 3: it's the devil's drink. But we do have shelves and

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Speaker 3: shelves of unrefrigerated milk and what looks like jars of

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Speaker 3: pink teeth is all I could say.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure what that's supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they didn't get to that one. Maybe there's

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Speaker 2: a cutscene, but but no. This guy playing the drug

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Speaker 2: store owner is Don Packard. This is his only screen

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Speaker 2: role outside of you know, showing up in the documentary.

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Speaker 2: But man, he comes off as a legitimately creepy and

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Speaker 2: intense character in a way that really makes me think

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Speaker 2: this guy missed his calling as a B movie heavy

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Speaker 2: because he has this kind of like carved from granite face.

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Speaker 2: He looks like he should be like just an old

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Speaker 2: cowboy sitting in the back of a gunsmoke episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he could have been a Michael Ironside of his generation,

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Speaker 3: but not quite.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's said he's his generation's Don Packard. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a memorable performance. A lot of the other actors

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Speaker 2: in the film were, of course, just straight up locals,

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Speaker 2: and many of them didn't work beyond this picture. But

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Speaker 2: there is an interesting bit of one interesting person from

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Speaker 2: the crew, Laura Gimser, an actor who starred in numerous

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Speaker 2: Immanuel movies, which were erotic pictures of the day. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: she was credited as Emmanuel, or she'd be playing the

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Speaker 2: Emmanuel character. She was the costume designer on troll Too,

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Speaker 2: and reportedly she was the only crew member who spoke

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Speaker 2: both Italian and English well enough to communicate with the actors,

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Speaker 2: So she was the communicative bridge between the filmmakers and

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Speaker 2: the crew and the cast.

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Speaker 3: She was the human babblefish that made this artistic production possible. Yes, well,

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Speaker 3: that makes sense because a lot of the dialogue in

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Speaker 3: this movie feels like when you take a sentence and

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Speaker 3: you run it through Google Translate several times to different languages.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, apparently. Fragaso was very It was very firm

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Speaker 2: on the idea that the script should be used verbatim.

396
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Speaker 2: So there was gonna be no ad libbing, no taking

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Speaker 2: the dialogue and putting it in a form that would

398
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Speaker 2: come out naturally through your mouth. No, it needed to

399
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 2: stay in the original form. And therefore you have these

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Speaker 2: just strangely structured sentences and sometimes just strangely expressed thoughts.

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Speaker 3: Well, maybe we should run through the plot a little bit,

402
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 3: just to say what happens in the film point by point. Okay,

403
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 3: so the So the movie starts with an apparent fairy

404
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Speaker 3: tale scene. You've got a guy who looks like Jack

405
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Speaker 3: in the beanstalk. He's got on the elf hat, and

406
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Speaker 3: he's wandering through the forest and he comes across a

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Speaker 3: girl who offers him some green goo. I guess it

408
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 3: looks like toothpaste, kind of like aim brand or whatever

409
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Speaker 3: it is that has that really verdant green.

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Speaker 2: It's so green that it looks like virtually nothing you

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Speaker 2: would consume. It's like too green to be bad. Absinthe,

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Speaker 2: toothpaste or candy.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, she offers this to him. And then we

414
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Speaker 3: realized that this is a story being told to a

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Speaker 3: child by an old man, and the old man is

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Speaker 3: Grandpa Seth, and the child is Joshua, the main kid

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Speaker 3: in the movie. And as Grandpa Seth narrates the story,

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Speaker 3: I would love to see what book he was reading

419
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Speaker 3: out of, because he talks about like when this girl

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Speaker 3: kneels down to feed Jack the goo, he says that

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Speaker 3: she was a lovely girl with huge eyes. The color

422
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 3: of the sea, which brought to mind like Homeric scholarship

423
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Speaker 3: questions about like what color is the sea? What does

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Speaker 3: the wine dark sea mean? I'm not sure what that

425
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:46,959
Speaker 3: was supposed to be there, But she has lots of

426
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 3: freckles drawn onto her face with a sharpie. They just

427
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Speaker 3: took a marker and dotted her cheeks. And then she

428
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Speaker 3: feeds him the stuff and he starts bleeding green all

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Speaker 3: over the place, and then the the goblins eat him,

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Speaker 3: and then the end of Grandpa's story is just like, yes,

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Speaker 3: they ate him. That's just what happened, and that's there's

432
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 3: no happiness or redemption at all. It's just a fairy

433
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 3: tale where the guy gets eaten and that's it.

434
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 2: But it's pretty great because we've introduced the magic. We've

435
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: introduced the monsters and introduced the rules for how they function.

436
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 2: You know, they don't eat meat, they eat vegetables, but

437
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 2: they use magic to turn people into vegetables so that

438
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: they can eat them.

439
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 3: Right, I think that's all pretty well established early on.

440
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 3: But I just have to say a couple of other

441
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 3: things about this opening scene. So one thing we find

442
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 3: out is that Grandpa Seth, who's telling the story, to

443
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 3: Joshua he's a ghost, and he vanishes as soon as

444
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 3: the mom appears in the room. And it becomes clear

445
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 3: that Joshua has been repeatedly hallucinating his dead grandfather and

446
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 3: he's not supposed to be hallucinating him anymore.

447
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 4: The parents are like, you've.

448
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: Got to stop, and she says to him, I think

449
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 3: the line is, Grandpa Seth is in all our hearts,

450
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: but you must banish him from your mind, like send

451
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 3: him to the realm of dust and ghosts.

452
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 2: I love this because this is a case where someone

453
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: could have made a firm case to Forgaso and said, look,

454
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: you got two movies here, why don't you do the

455
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: dead Grandpa ghost movie and maybe they can fight, you know,

456
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 2: killer REDNECKX or something. But then you've got this supernatural

457
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: troll thing that's another movie. But for Gaso's like, no,

458
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: this is one movie. We're going to do both of

459
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: these crazy elements in one film.

460
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 3: One of the things I love. I mean, the movie

461
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 3: fails at verisimilitude at essentially every level, but I love

462
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 3: Joshua's Bedroom because I noticed for the first time watching

463
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 3: it this time. Actually, I can't remember if I've said

464
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 3: this already, but this is a movie I watched probably

465
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 3: fifty times when I was in college and then didn't

466
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 3: watch for about a decade, and so coming back to

467
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: it was like one of those dreams where you wander

468
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 3: through your childhood home, going from room to room and

469
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 3: it's been a long time, but it's very familiar, but

470
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 3: you also notice things anew. And one of the things

471
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 3: I noticed this time was in Joshua's bedroom, he has

472
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 3: merch from essentially every baseball team. I'm not a real

473
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: sports fan, but I thought usually you would have your

474
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 3: team or your couple of teams, and they're the ones

475
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 3: you're fans of, and you've got their kind of stuff.

476
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 3: But Joshua apparently has like flags and merch for his

477
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 3: seventeen top baseball teams.

478
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 2: This one kind of feels like a case where you

479
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: have you have filmmakers who know what it's like to

480
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: be a movie fan, maybe don't know what it's like

481
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 2: to be, especially an American sports fan, and you just

482
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: kind of roughly translate one into the other, you know,

483
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: like if I were trying to figure out as a teenager,

484
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: like what it's like to be a fan of sports,

485
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: so it'd be like oh, I guess you do. Yeah,

486
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 2: you just get a bunch of posters like and everywhere

487
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 2: in my room that I have a music or a

488
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: movie poster. I would just replace that with some sort

489
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: of sport poster.

490
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's possible. I'm just wrong about this. Sports fans,

491
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 3: let us know. I mean, do you have merch for

492
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 3: your twentieth favorite baseball team?

493
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 4: I'd be curious.

494
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 3: But what we find out is the family is about

495
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 3: to go on vacation for a month to this town

496
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: called Nilbog to trade houses with some people from the town.

497
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: They're going to come stay in their house, and they're

498
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 3: just telling everybody the night before they leave that they're

499
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: going to be gone for a month. So the dad

500
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 3: appears to be on the phone with his boss or

501
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: his workplace or something's like, yeah, we'll be gone for

502
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: a month. Yeah, it's called Nilbog. Can you take care

503
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: of that for me. The daughter Holly is telling her

504
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 3: boyfriend that night that she's about to be gone for

505
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 3: a month, and it's like, one of the many ways

506
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 3: in which there's very lack of verisimilitude in this movie

507
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 3: is that the characters are as if they just started

508
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 3: existing when the movie began, and there's no attempt to

509
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 3: create a through line that they had lives before the

510
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: camera started rolling.

511
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: I will say that the basic plot here, the whole

512
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: switching houses for a month, than it almost makes more

513
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 2: sense in twenty twenty than it could have possibly made

514
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: sense in nineteen ninety. You know, like if you already

515
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: had a coworker today and they're gonna be like, oh, yeah,

516
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to be switching houses with some friends for

517
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: a month. Yeah, you know, so you know, just there'll

518
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: be a different background on my zoom call. You'd be like,

519
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: all right, that makes sense. That makes us much sense

520
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: as anything this year.

521
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah, if you're a digital worker. I don't

522
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 3: think George Hardy in this movie is supposed to be

523
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 3: a digital worker. I mean, for all I know, he's

524
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 3: supposed to be a dentist like the actor actually was.

525
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 3: But yeah, So they travel to this country, and again

526
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 3: the family is very much the family.

527
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 4: From Poltergeist Craig T. Nelson.

528
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 3: The kids are kind of fighting, They drive ten miles

529
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: per hour on the freeway. That's pretty fun, and Joshua

530
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 3: keeps hallucinating encounters with Grandpa Seth, who's warning them not

531
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 3: to go to Nilbag because he says it's a kingdom

532
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 3: of evil where the goblins rule.

533
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: One of the great things about Grandpa throughout this film

534
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: is that he has and I have difficulty figuring out

535
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: at times whether this was intentional. There's almost a Grandpa

536
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: Simpson level of clumsiness to his ghostly presence, you know.

537
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, very Yeah.

538
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 3: Well, there's one part where he's trying to appear in

539
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 3: a mirror like Bloody Mary to contact Joshua, but he

540
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 3: gets the wrong room in the house and he accidentally

541
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: appears in Holly's mirror and she screams and freaks out.

542
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 3: Like five minutes of the film are devoted to this

543
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 3: mix up. They're really kind of padding it out there.

544
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: So I don't know if that's an inept choice or

545
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: really a genius choice. I don't know. It works within

546
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: the context control too, it absolutely works.

547
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, So they get to the town. Also arriving at

548
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: the town because I guess you've got to fill out

549
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: the cast. This is a thing that often happens in

550
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 3: horror movies. You'll notice that, you know, somewhere toward the

551
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 3: middle of the first act, it starts getting populated with

552
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: seemingly unimportant characters, and you're like, why are all these

553
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 3: people suddenly appearing in the movie. It's because, well, this

554
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: is a horror film, and you just randos to get

555
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 3: murdered as the film progresses, like you've got to fill

556
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: out the kill list basically, And so that is mainly

557
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 3: done in this movie by having Holly's boyfriend Elliott and

558
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 3: his three weird friends show up in a camper van

559
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: or an RV I guess, and they're just hanging out

560
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: in the town too, and so you know what's going

561
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: to happen to these buddies here.

562
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just pure fodder.

563
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: But in all of the scenes where the goblins attack

564
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: the humans, they all pretty much have the same progression,

565
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 3: which is the human is given something to eat or drink,

566
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: and then they eat or drink it and that turns

567
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: them into the green goop or turns them into a

568
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: plant somehow, and then the goblins eat or otherwise attack them.

569
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the main threat becomes this, and this is

570
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: something that joshua Is is woken up to before the

571
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: rest of the family. You will be tricked into eating

572
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: something at some point that will transform your entire family

573
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: into vegetables and then the trolls will eat them.

574
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: Right, and probably famously this is dealt with it a

575
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 3: scene where the family arrives at the house where they're

576
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 3: going to be staying for a month, and out on

577
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: the table has laid a bountiful feast of disgusting looking

578
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 3: plato food that looks like it was made out of

579
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 3: like mud and sticks by a child, and sometimes with

580
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 3: toothpaste and green paint. And they're like, delicious, look what

581
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 3: they've prepared for us. And they all sit down to eat,

582
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 3: and so Grandpa Seth says, Joshua has to find a

583
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 3: way to stop them from eating. And this is I

584
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 3: would say this is one of the most famous scenes

585
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 3: in the movie. He says, you know, since I am Chronos,

586
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: the Wizard of Time, I'm just gonna stop time for

587
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: thirty seconds to give you time to figure that out.

588
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: But if Grandpa Seth has the power to stop time,

589
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: you'd think that would be useful throughout the movie. Instead,

590
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: he only does it once.

591
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: What I kind of love about this is that it

592
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: makes the audience think it's kind of like a werewolf

593
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: break right, where yes, the director is saying, all right, audience,

594
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: how would you stop your family from eating the tainted food.

595
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 4: Right, what would you do?

596
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: And of course he does the most ridiculous thing possible,

597
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: but in a way. But this is like, again the

598
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: brilliance of this film, because only Fragaso would choose to

599
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: have the child use this moment to jump up on

600
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: the table and pee urinate on all of the food,

601
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: thus tainting it further and preventing the family from eating it.

602
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 3: We're thankfully spared seeing that actually happen. There's a cutaway

603
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 3: and then you see them scraping the food out and

604
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 3: the father it's a tasteful movie, has quite tasteful, and

605
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 3: the father is chewing Joshua out. He says like, you

606
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 3: can't piss on hospitality. I won't allow it.

607
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and he shames them. He is he like

608
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: he's messing with his belt after he takes him up,

609
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: but he's like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm

610
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: tightening my bel to notch because of the coming hunger paints.

611
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: So one thing about this is I was like, I

612
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 3: know there has got to be a good monster science

613
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 3: tie in, and I found one. Are you ready for

614
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 3: some monster science?

615
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: Let's do it?

616
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: Okay, So surely there is evidence of some kind of

617
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: animal joshua that pees on food in order to get

618
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: people not to eat it. And you know what, I

619
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 3: didn't find exactly that, but I found something pretty close.

620
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: I found a paper from the Canadian Journal of Zoology

621
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 3: by Fred H. Harrington called Urine marking at food and

622
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 3: Caches and Captive Coyotes. So the study was done in

623
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 3: captive coyotes Canus latrans. And as always, it's worth noting

624
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 3: that animals sometimes behave differently in captivity than they do

625
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: under natural condition, so it's possible the behaviors described here

626
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: wouldn't be as common in the wild. But either way,

627
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 3: Harrington notes that often when captive coyotes are observed during feeding,

628
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: they will just sometimes urinate on food. They'll just pee

629
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 3: on food piles or on quote, individual food items that

630
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: had been carried and dropped some distance from the pile.

631
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 3: And also sometimes when a food item was stolen from

632
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 3: one coyote taken by another, sometimes the animal would pee

633
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 3: on it. So why would you pee on food piles

634
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 3: and food items?

635
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 4: You might be assuming something.

636
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 3: You might guess, well, okay, these are canines basically sort

637
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 3: of dogs, so you might assume they are making a

638
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 3: claim of possession. Right, this food is mine. Now I'm

639
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 3: going to pee on it, so that you understand. But

640
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 3: this does not appear to be the case, Harrington writes,

641
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 3: quote marking of food did not reserve it for the

642
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: marking animal. Others usually ignored the urine mark and ate

643
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 3: the item, which is kind of gross but okay, So

644
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: in that case, what purpose does it serve?

645
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 4: Well?

646
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 3: One observation was that this behavior of peeing on a

647
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 3: food item specifically increased a lot during the breeding season,

648
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 3: so it's possible it played some role in quote the

649
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 3: expression of dominance in intrast sexual rivalries, So like, if

650
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: there are rivalries between the males or between the females,

651
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 3: they might be expressing dominance by peeing on their food.

652
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 3: That sounds kind of weird, like if you were doing

653
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 3: some kind of office politics thing and you just like pede

654
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 3: on your TV dinner in front of the person you're

655
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 3: trying to impress. But you know, canines are different. But

656
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 3: there's another kind of food peeing, and specifically, this was

657
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: the peeing that occurred at food caches, so places where

658
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 3: food was hidden or stored.

659
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 4: Quote.

660
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 3: Urin marking never occurred when food was cashed and rarely

661
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: occurred while the cash still contained food. However, once the

662
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 3: cash was emptied, urin marking usually occurred. Thus, at caches,

663
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: urin marking evidently serves as a book keeping role, indicating

664
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 3: that the caches are no longer worth investigating, although food

665
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: odors might still linger, which I thought was really interesting. So,

666
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: like you pee on a food storage site, apparently as

667
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 3: a note to self and possibly as a note to

668
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: others as well.

669
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 4: Nothing to eat here, move along.

670
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't expend the energy of getting in here, because

671
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: it's all the food has been to.

672
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 3: Right, And the same patterns of your in marking at

673
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: cash is have been observed in wolves and red foxes

674
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: as well, and it's been documented in previous studies that

675
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 3: this actually increases foraging efficiency. The dogs and other canines

676
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 3: waste less time foraging for food when they mark emptied caches.

677
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 3: It prevents you from wasting time trying to dig up

678
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 3: food places where food had.

679
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 4: Been buried before, but isn't there anymore.

680
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 3: So anyway, there's a kind of canine Joshua thing going

681
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: on here, right, So if they had been coyotes, maybe

682
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: he would have peed all over the table and then

683
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 3: the family just would have been like, huh, I guess

684
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 3: there's no food here, got to move on.

685
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course there was apparently no other food

686
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 2: in the house, because this is what you do when

687
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 2: you go to like an airbnb, right, you bring no

688
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 2: food of your own, and you immediately start eating whatever

689
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 2: food was in the refrigerator when you'd got there, or

690
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 2: on the table in the case of this film.

691
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: But it's all just chunky milk that's in the fridge

692
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: like everywhere in town.

693
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: You know. As long as we're talking monster science here,

694
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 2: let's talk a bit about the monsters in this film,

695
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 2: the goblins themselves. Okay, so these are clearly little people

696
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: actors in a horrific mix of costumes. Some of the

697
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: costumes are really almost kind of convincing, except maybe in

698
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: the eyes. Others look a little more hastily thrown together.

699
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: But all in all, I find that they are like

700
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: equal parts terrifying, like legitimately terrifying, because you're seeing people

701
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: in strange like fur costumes running at you with spears,

702
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: and then at the same time they're just completely goofy,

703
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: like they're just completely like it looks like someone left

704
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: an ewot costume out in the rain for a month.

705
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 3: Yes, I would say that the monster costumes in this

706
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 3: film are cheap and bad, but they're actually scary because

707
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 3: they're so cheap and bad. They don't code as monsters.

708
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 3: They code as like people in deranged costume coming at you.

709
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, and I think it works. I don't know

710
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: if it works in the same the way that the

711
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: filmmakers intended, but there are plenty of scenes where they're

712
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: like running down the hallways or you know, running through

713
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: the woods. They're standing menacingly in the woods, and it works.

714
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: Now again, the most notable thing about the monsters here

715
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: is that they must transform their animal prey into vegetation

716
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 2: in order to consume them, and of course they do

717
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: this via potions and magic. Now, to a certain extent,

718
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: this makes perfect sense because in our food chain, there

719
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: are plants that gain energy from the sun, and then

720
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: animals that consume the converted energy in those plants, and

721
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: then there are predators that consume those herbivores. So it's

722
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: kind of an inverted treatment of how this works that

723
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: we see in the town of Nilbog, for example. Just

724
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 2: one example to sort of put all this in context,

725
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: consider what leaf cutter ants do they harvest leaf clippings,

726
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: but they don't eat the leaf clippings. They use the

727
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: leaf clipping to grow a specific ant, domesticated fungus that

728
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: they use as their primary food source. It's not a

729
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: magical transformation from one biological kingdom to another, but it

730
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 2: is an energy transformation. So in a way, that's what

731
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 2: we're seeing happen here with the goblins. You know, they're like, oh, well,

732
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 2: we don't eat the people. We turn the people into

733
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: something we can eat. And that's a lot like what

734
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: we see with the leaf cutter ants, just without the magic.

735
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 4: Yeah.

736
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 3: I mean, in a way, you're relying on the digestion

737
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 3: and energy storage faculties of a different species to do

738
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 3: some of your digesting externally for you when you're a

739
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 3: leaf cutter ant like that, Like if you were to

740
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 3: just eat the plant matter directly, you wouldn't be able

741
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 3: to get as much energy out of it as you

742
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 3: can get by growing some fungus.

743
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: Now, I can't remember. Do we find out how they're

744
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 2: making the tainted food and the millbog milk, Like is

745
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 2: that goblin milk from goblin teats or is that some

746
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: sort of are they getting the goblin drippings from the

747
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: people that have been turned into green mush.

748
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 3: This is the real nil bogology question, and I don't

749
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 3: know the answer. I don't think they ever show that

750
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 3: in the movie. I mean sense that it's all magic.

751
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 3: And there's one thing that's cool about this movie that

752
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 3: it has in common with Halloween three Season of the Witch. Yes,

753
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: both movies rely on the magic of the Stone Hinge

754
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 3: magic Stone. So in Halloween three Season of the Witch,

755
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 3: Dan O'Herlihy, the old man from RoboCop, steals one of

756
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 3: the rocks, one of the bluestones from Stonehinge, and then

757
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 3: turns that into magic microchips that turn your head into crickets.

758
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 3: In this movie, Credence. Credence has part of Stone Hinge

759
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: in her house and there's light and fog that comes.

760
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 4: Out of it.

761
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 3: It's never explained how she got this. Part of Stone

762
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: Hinge was just there, and that seems to be the

763
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 3: source of her power from what I can tell.

764
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, maybe you use the stone. She traveled

765
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: through the Stone through time, and there's an actual link

766
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: between the world of the Outlander books and the world

767
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: of troll too. I'm gonna I'm gonna have to explore

768
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: that on my own time, I think, but I think

769
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: there might be a connection.

770
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 4: Kilt Lifter four returned to Nilbog.

771
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: This movie, like we said, you know, it seems to

772
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 2: have a message. It had some sort of intent anyway,

773
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: and going by what the film makers have to say

774
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: about it, a certain amount of the deep thinking here

775
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: seems to have revolved around the idea of vegetarianism as

776
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 2: something that, if not in itself bad, is, is thrust

777
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: upon us that it poses a danger or a threat

778
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 2: to people because we find ourselves thrust into a story

779
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 2: where the monsters are all vegetarians, and then the weird

780
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 2: people in the weird town, you know, are all also

781
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: very much opposed to the consumption of dairy or meat

782
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 2: and coffee for some reason.

783
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,720
Speaker 3: Well, regarding the coffee, I think there is some pretty

784
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 3: strong Latter Day Saint influence on this film, or at

785
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 3: least presence within the film in the cast. But I

786
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 3: would say, maybe you're selling short the critique of vegetarianism here.

787
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 3: I think this presents vegetarianism as a satanic cult.

788
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because I mean there are scenes in the

789
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 2: film where it's it's a little more vague as as

790
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: to how we're supposed to take it, But there are

791
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: plenty of scenes where Troll two is pushing vegetarianism as

792
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: being this like violent transformation into plant matter, that there's

793
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 2: this communal coltish pressure to drink nil bog milk to

794
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: you know, change become one of us. So you know

795
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: that in these places the film certainly reeks of an

796
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: entirely hyperbolic reaction to vegetarianism and veganism that I think

797
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 2: most of us are somewhat familiar with. You know, the

798
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 2: sort of fear that your uncle might spout about how

799
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: the liberals are going to force everyone to become vegans

800
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: and the government is going to take your stake night

801
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: away from you, to take away that sort of thing.

802
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 3: They'll they'll take your hamburgers, they'll and and specifically, I

803
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 3: would say that to the extent this movie has a message,

804
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 3: it's trying to take away the implied moral authority of

805
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 3: vegetarianism or veganism. It assumes that someone who just eats

806
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 3: plants thinks that they're better than you and is show it,

807
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 3: and the movie is showing you that no, actually they're

808
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 3: the real murderers.

809
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like eating plants is murder. Let me show

810
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: you how it works. It involves magic in months now,

811
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think we have time to really

812
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 2: go into depth on this particular topic, but there are

813
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 2: some very solid health and environmental arguments for at least

814
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: cutting back on the consumption of meat and dairy without

815
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: even getting into moral arguments. At the same time, one

816
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: does have to realize that vegetarian and vegan food products

817
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: are not necessarily flawless choices. For example, just as far

818
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: as milk substitutes go, you have to take into account

819
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: the water usage and the crop location. As such, they

820
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 2: are strong arguments for say, oat milk as being a

821
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 2: better choice than say, almond milk, and a lot of

822
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 2: that has to do with how much water is consumed.

823
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: You also have to take into account like deforestation, habitat

824
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: loss whenever you're talking about crops being grown. But this

825
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: is of course also the case with dairy cows. For

826
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: cow milk, you have to take into account the land, juice,

827
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: the water use, and methane emissions from the cows themselves.

828
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: It takes roughly four square kilometers of land to produce

829
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: just one glass of cow's milk, and that again that

830
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: land use means potential deforestation and habitat loss. And on

831
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: top of that, the cows are probably eating soy or

832
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: oats as well, which puts an additional land strain on

833
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 2: their milk. Less land use is required meanwhile, to produce

834
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 2: milk from the same soy and oats. For a plant

835
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 2: based milk, each glass of dairy milk contributes half a

836
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 2: kilogram of greenhouse gas emissions, and that's compared to point

837
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 2: one two point two kilograms with plant based milks. Now,

838
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: I was looking over all these stats and then I

839
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 2: started thinking, well, what about nilbog milk. We have no

840
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 2: idea how to crunch the numbers on how environmentally sound

841
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: nilbog milk is.

842
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 4: There are scientists on both sides.

843
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: But anyway, back to the idea of this film basically

844
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: being about hating on vegetarians or vegans, I decided to

845
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 2: look into it just a little bit and I found

846
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 2: a wonderful article on The Conversation from twenty eighteen by

847
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: Kate Stewart and Matthew Cole titled Vegans Why they Inspire

848
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 2: fear and loathing among meat eaters. And this is an

849
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: informative read I recommend it to everybody. But here's just

850
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 2: some of the highlights. So first they point out that

851
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: has been going on for a while, but that a

852
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 2: lot of the old stereotypes about vegans are not applicable

853
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: anymore because it's simply more or widespread. So all of

854
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 2: these quote angry, militant, self denying, sentimental, fatty or joyless

855
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: unquote stereotypes, they don't really zing like they used to.

856
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: And I feel like you get a sense of that

857
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 2: when you watch older television. If you find like a

858
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: nice vegan or vegetarian jab on saying an old episode

859
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: of The Simpsons or even Futurama, you're like, oh, well,

860
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 2: that that doesn't really feel as authentic today as maybe

861
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 2: it arguably was. You know, twenty years ago, was.

862
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 4: The Simpsons jabbing at vegetarians. I remembered Lisa becoming one.

863
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: She did, But well, I guess I mainly there's a

864
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: Futurama episode where there's an annoying vegan character that shows up,

865
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: and he's the one I mostly think of because it

866
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: is like just an outrageous stereotype of like an angry

867
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: vegeta vegan who wants to you know who wants to

868
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 2: convert everyone around him, and of course they have him

869
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 2: eaten by a lion at the end, like there's some

870
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: sort of perverse joy in seeing the vegan consumed by

871
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 2: the animal.

872
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 3: Well, of course, I mean a vegan vegetarian can be annoyed,

873
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 3: just like anybody can be annoying.

874
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 4: Well, yes, you know, yeah, everybody.

875
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 3: Should be eaten by lions. That's what I'm really saying.

876
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 3: But I think it's a pretty common feature of human

877
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 3: psychology that people who abstain from what's perceived as hedonic

878
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 3: activity are often vilified and disdained by the people who

879
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 3: engage in that same activity. And this is true for

880
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: not just meat. It's true for like everything that's perceived

881
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 3: as like some kind of pleasurable consumption or activity, like drugs, alcohol, sex,

882
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 3: unhealthy food, trashy TV, with any of that stuff, if

883
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 3: you encounter somebody who says none for me, thanks, it

884
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: can kind of trigger a discomfort and defensiveness in the

885
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 3: people who are having some of whatever it is. Because

886
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 3: like if you think of the scene at a party,

887
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's an episode of Mad Men, or

888
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 3: you know, kids at college or whatever. If somebody tries

889
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 3: to refuse a drink that's not usually people don't usually

890
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 3: react to that in just a neutral way, like if

891
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 3: they had turned down a glass of water, you react like, oh,

892
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 3: come on, have one, or you say like, oh, now

893
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 3: the vibe is off.

894
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 4: You made it weird.

895
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: Like there's a discomfort people have when when others in

896
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 3: their social circle are not engaging in all of the

897
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 3: same hedonic activities that they are, And naturally, I think

898
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 3: this comes from a place of insecurity, like the presence

899
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 3: of a person who abstains from something is a natural

900
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 3: social signal that makes you wonder if maybe you should

901
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 3: be abstaining as well, And then it kind of makes

902
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: you feel bad and makes you feel like, well, now

903
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about consuming this more than I wanted to

904
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 3: be thinking about it in this moment. And so the

905
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: reaction is hostility and sometimes attempts at ostracism, like oh,

906
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 3: you think you're just so perfect, don't you.

907
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess a lot of this is unavoidable

908
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 2: just by the you know, the fact that we are

909
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 2: social animals and we pick up all these cues. And

910
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 2: this paper backs up most of what you just said. Here,

911
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 2: for instance, they point out quote the exchange is arguably

912
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: emblematic of the contemporary plague of entitled anger that toxifies

913
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: public discourse whenever entitlement is challenged. However politely so. Some

914
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: of the other key points they make. They say, part

915
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: of this does seem to be unresolved. Guilt as vegan

916
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 2: lifestyles may be seen as implying a failure to act

917
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 2: on a moral issue. Again, Oh you think you're so

918
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: great what you're turning down meat? You're saying I should

919
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: turn it down too, That I should feel guilty about

920
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: eating this meat, etc. On top of that, it can

921
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: be interpreted as an affront to freedom of choice for

922
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 2: some weird reason, even though they are actually engaging in choice.

923
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 2: It's not a choice if everybody has to eat steak, right.

924
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 2: And then, on top of that quote, food practices are

925
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: socially powerful markers of social and cultural identity, making actual

926
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: or implied criticism of them personally and hurtfully felt. For instance,

927
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: they give the example that meat often this is less

928
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: most more social than cultural, I guess, but about how

929
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 2: meat eating is often linked to masculine identity, and therefore

930
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 2: it could be seen as a threat to one's masculinity

931
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: or some other you know, way of some other like

932
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: cultural critique. They're turning down meat. Meat is important to me,

933
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: therefore they are turning down me.

934
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 3: I mean, it's weird that I know exactly what you're

935
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 3: saying here, and I agree that there can be this

936
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 3: feeling that your freedom is being challenged even when somebody

937
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 3: has not told you not to do something and not

938
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 3: I mean, let alone that they don't have any power

939
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 3: to prevent you from doing it, but haven't even told

940
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 3: you not to do it or suggested you shouldn't do it.

941
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 3: And I think it's because sometimes when you do something

942
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 3: without thinking about doing it, even being asked to think

943
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: about the fact that you're doing it is perceived as

944
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 3: a challenge to your freedom to do it. And I

945
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 3: think I think that's where the abstinence of someone else

946
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 3: comes in. Like, even if someone else abstains from whatever

947
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 3: it is, meat or alcohol or whatever, even if they're

948
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 3: not commenting on your behavior, the fact that you notice

949
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 3: them abstaining makes you think about what you're doing when

950
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: you weren't thinking about it before. And it doesn't feel

951
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 3: good to do that.

952
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, oh, I'm meeting me, Okay, I guess

953
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 2: I'm a monster. I guess I'm a literal monster that

954
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: catches tourists and eats them with magic. And so you

955
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 2: want to turn that on its head and you want

956
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: to create a scenario in which the opposite is true. Yeah.

957
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 3: No, you're the monster. You're the one who's turning people

958
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 3: into jello.

959
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's one of those things where with Troll two,

960
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 2: it is on one hand, it's ridiculous, this seems like

961
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 2: just a ridiculous, hyperbolic thrust of your artistic expression. But

962
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: on the other hand, like this is clearly like this

963
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 2: is a real cultural energy, Like this is a thing

964
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: that people feel, even if they're not like truly rationalizing

965
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: the thought. Maybe it's more subconscious in many cases, but

966
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: you know this, this is a true human reaction. So

967
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 2: in a way, they've kind of pushed through that, and

968
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 2: they've dared to make the film that that makes these accusations.

969
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we should say in the end, the

970
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 3: way that they defeat the Witch and the Goblins is

971
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 3: by eating a double decker baloney sandwich while putting a

972
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 3: hand on the stonehinge magic stone.

973
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, which which is within the context of the film

974
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 2: perfect just a perfect narrative choice. But it also just

975
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: again reeks of this whole, like, oh, eating steak is bad.

976
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: Watch me eat some steak. Oh I'm going to eat

977
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: steaks so hard.

978
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 3: It's like the sword and the Stone, but with instead

979
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 3: of a sword, it's like, you know, a mulsified meat product.

980
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it would be the ultimate you know,

981
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 2: just straight up baloney.

982
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,959
Speaker 3: Yes, it is funny that baloney is sort of used

983
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 3: as the ultimate meat. It's it's not just any meat.

984
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 3: It's like the mediest meat you could have. And I

985
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 3: think maybe that's because it is the most processed form

986
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,800
Speaker 3: of meat, Like it is ground to a finer consistency

987
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 3: than any other meat on Earth, and thus it's the

988
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 3: most meaty. Like it's inherently identifying the consumption of meat

989
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 3: with industrial processes for production of food.

990
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is like the the the ultimate like anti

991
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 2: druidic food product. It's like the perfect thing to overturn stonehenge.

992
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 3: Wey to hell with nature. Food should not look like

993
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 3: the shape it originally in habits. But so, there's one

994
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 3: last thing I wanted to talk about before we wrap

995
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,399
Speaker 3: up our discussion of Troll two, which is the idea

996
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 3: of verisimilitude in film. This has come up a couple

997
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 3: of times already. But one of the things everybody notices

998
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 3: about troll Too, probably its most salient aesthetic feature, is

999
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 3: the overwhelming anti verisimilitude in the dialogue. Almost every time

1000
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 3: a character says a line, your brain just raises a

1001
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 3: flag that says, uh uh not how people talk. And

1002
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 3: so I'm trying to think of the best examples. One

1003
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 3: is when Joshua says to his dad while they're standing

1004
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 3: there being observed by a bunch of the creepy people.

1005
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 4: In the town.

1006
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 3: Joshua says, there are goblins, monstrous beings. There's, of course

1007
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 3: the line about Grandpa Seth is in all our hearts,

1008
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 3: but you must banish him from your mind. You know,

1009
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 3: the will be gone for a month. Can you take

1010
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 3: care of that business for me? And this made me

1011
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 3: think about a couple of things. I'm sure both of

1012
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,479
Speaker 3: these questions will come up again and again in Weird

1013
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 3: House cinema, because anti vera similitude is one of the

1014
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 3: most common and interesting and enjoyable features in bad movies.

1015
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 3: But first of all, why is it? Why is what

1016
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 3: we call vera similitude a desirable characteristic in fiction? To

1017
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 3: begin with, so vera similitude is, of course, you know,

1018
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 3: the feeling of realism, the feeling of life likeness in

1019
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 3: a book or in a movie. You know it seems

1020
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 3: true to life. Why is that desirable to begin with?

1021
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 3: And then the second thing is what actually causes the

1022
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 3: feeling of verisimilitude in a film? As to why it's

1023
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 3: a desirable characteristic, I mean, there are a couple of answers,

1024
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 3: first of which is verisimilitude is a mental lubricant, right

1025
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 3: like it helps you stay immersed in the story and

1026
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 3: avoid unnecessary metacognition where you start remembering that you're sitting

1027
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 3: there watching a movie and thinking about it as a

1028
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 3: created piece of media. Anti verisimilitude automatically and immediately causes

1029
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 3: that metacognition. Every time there's a line that thuds as unreal,

1030
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 3: like that you can't be in the story anymore because

1031
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, wait a minute, I'm watching a movie.

1032
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: One of the weird things about this, though I don't

1033
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 2: know if you've had this experience, is that, in a way,

1034
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: the experience of watching a film like this, like Troll two,

1035
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:01,439
Speaker 2: is akin to watching a production of a William Shakespeare play.

1036
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 2: You know, because nobody in our immediate world speaks like

1037
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 2: a Shakespeare play. For that matter, you can point to

1038
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: other examples where this still holds up from contemporary authors,

1039
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 2: like nobody actually speaks like a David Mammott play. You know,

1040
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 2: but but but we're drawn into it. But on the

1041
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 2: on the on the on the other hand, it can

1042
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 2: throw you out of it at times if you stop

1043
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 2: to realize, oh, nobody talks like this. I don't talk

1044
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 2: like this. People around me don't talk like this. I

1045
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 2: don't eavesdrop conversations of this nature.

1046
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 3: Well, this actually cuts ahead to the other question I

1047
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 3: wanted to answer, what causes something to feel realistic? Because

1048
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 3: I agree with you, and I'd actually go farther than

1049
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 3: you just did. It's not just Shakespeare or David Mammott,

1050
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,439
Speaker 3: I would say flatly. Almost no movies have what could

1051
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 3: actually be called realistic dialogue, if you're going to be

1052
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 3: technical about it, because almost no movie has dialogue that

1053
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 3: sounds the way people really talk in life. And usually

1054
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 3: you wouldn't want a movie to sound that way because

1055
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 3: it would be boring, It would be really teed and

1056
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 3: hard to understand, and narratively inefficient. It would not move

1057
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 3: the plot along. And yet when we listen to characters

1058
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 3: in a movie talk to each other, there is a

1059
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 3: quality that we automatically look out for, and we intuitively

1060
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 3: think of this quality as realism or vera similitude. But

1061
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 3: that's not exactly what it is, right, So what is

1062
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 3: that quality and what is that quality that when it's

1063
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 3: violated we feel like, oh, people.

1064
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 4: Don't talk like this.

1065
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 3: I don't know the full answer to that question, but

1066
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 3: I think part of it has to do with a

1067
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 3: kind of flowing narrative logic, where one idea or statement

1068
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 3: feels like it logically proceeds into the next one, even

1069
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 3: though that's not how people would actually have a conversation

1070
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 3: in real life. Usually, a lot of the dialogue in

1071
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 3: the movies that causes this feeling of anti verisimilitude or

1072
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 3: feels very unreal has this quality of constantly stopping, or

1073
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 3: where the conversation is just ring and you are you

1074
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 3: are repeatedly feeling this thud of an inappropriate maneuver in

1075
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 3: the conversation.

1076
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

1077
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it makes sense. You know that. It also

1078
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 2: drives home I think why sometimes the most memorable moment

1079
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 2: in a movie is when another character is telling a story. Yeah,

1080
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 2: two examples come to mind from kind of related but

1081
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: ultimately very different films. One, of course is quint and Jaws,

1082
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: but the other is Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith

1083
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 2: is a scene where he tells a story to Anakin,

1084
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 2: And both of those are tremendous scenes.

1085
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 3: Best scene in the prequels in my view.

1086
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are both like terrific scenes that have their

1087
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: own kind of inner reality. You know, you could you

1088
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 2: could take either one outside of the rest of the

1089
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 2: film and it would still make sense. It would still

1090
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 2: be entirely self contained, and it is entirely narrative and

1091
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: structured in a way that we just letely consume it.

1092
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 3: Can I learn to have this power not from a vegetarian?

1093
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 2: And of course Quinn is eaten by a shark, so

1094
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 2: it's perfect as well.

1095
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 3: This is also something we could come back to in

1096
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 3: future Weird House episodes.

1097
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 4: But I was thinking about.

1098
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 3: The comparison between how verisimilitude is used in analyzing fiction

1099
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 3: versus verisimilitude in science, where the term has played an

1100
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 3: important role in the history of science and philosophy of science,

1101
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 3: and like trying to come up with ideas about what

1102
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 3: makes a scientific theory a good one. The basic problem is,

1103
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 3: you know, we generally presume that the dominant theories in

1104
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:43,959
Speaker 3: the sciences tend over time to advance toward increasing truthiness

1105
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 3: or verisimilitude. You know, they get a better and better

1106
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 3: description of life in the world as it really is.

1107
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 3: But and this was a point discussed by the philosopher

1108
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 3: of science Carl Popper, all scientific theories are, in the

1109
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 3: strictest understanding falls they're never perfect explanations of reality. The

1110
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 3: understanding is that their attempts to get closer and closer

1111
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 3: to accurately explaining and predicting the world. But you could

1112
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 3: ask questions like what criteria would actually decide whether a

1113
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 3: theory is more truth like or has more verisimilitude than another?

1114
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 3: For example, does it matter how much a theory explains

1115
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 3: or does it matter more how accurately it explains what

1116
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 3: it does? You know, if a theory is like ninety

1117
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 3: percent accurate but explains a lot of things, is that

1118
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 3: better or worse than a theory that's ninety five percent

1119
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 3: accurate but explains a lot less.

1120
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: Hm, that's a good point. I mean, I guess it

1121
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 2: to compare it to dialogue in a film, like as

1122
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 2: a viewer, you want that dialogue to tell you what's

1123
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: happening and what will happen. That's kind of what the

1124
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 2: dialogue's doing. Right, here's a dialogue scene. It's about establishing

1125
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 2: the threat of the goblins or whatever. But on the

1126
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 2: other hand, you don't want it to be so blatantly explanatory.

1127
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's a careful balance you have to you

1128
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 2: have to strike.

1129
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean that's actually one of the one

1130
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 3: of my favorite types of bad dialogue in movies is

1131
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 3: the kind that is just obviously to fill the audience

1132
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 3: in about something, and this is something the characters would

1133
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 3: never need to say to each other.

1134
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 2: Oh. There's a tremendous scene of this to a certain

1135
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 2: extent intro too, where the woman is transforming into the

1136
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 2: plant who has been transformed by the witch's potion. The

1137
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 2: goblins are eating her, and then you have the kid

1138
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 2: down there who's staring up and he says they're eating her,

1139
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 2: and then they're going to eat me.

1140
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, oh my god.

1141
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:47,479
Speaker 2: And there's a fly in his head the whole time.

1142
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 2: It's also so weird and authentically twenty twenty. But yeah,

1143
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 2: it's just it's like, of course you're going to be

1144
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 2: eating next, that's implied, but he says it too. And

1145
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 2: that's one of the wonderful things this film.

1146
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,479
Speaker 3: I imagine this must have been a really buggy set

1147
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 3: because people get covered in green goop, and I imagine

1148
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 3: that goop was very sweet and sticky whatever it was. Yeah,

1149
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 3: there must have been flies all over the place.

1150
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 2: You know.

1151
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 3: There's another great piece of dialogue like that in the

1152
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 3: very first scene where the mother sits down on Joshua's

1153
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 3: bed to explain to him that he must banish Grandpa

1154
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 3: Seth from his mind. She says, I think, she says,

1155
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 3: Grandpa Seth meant a lot to us. He meant a

1156
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 3: lot to you, to your sister, to your father, and

1157
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 3: to me his daughter.

1158
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:39,920
Speaker 2: Oh that's great.

1159
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 4: Should we wrap up there?

1160
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 2: I guess we should. Yeah, let's say. What else to

1161
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 2: point out here? I will say that I mentioned Night Killer,

1162
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 2: which also came out in nineteen ninety. It's a slazier film. Yeah,

1163
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 2: I gotta say sexualized Slasherville.

1164
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 3: I tried to watch that one, and the scenes the

1165
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 3: good scene are really funny, even like on the troll

1166
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 3: two level, Like there's a scene of a dance choreography

1167
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 3: rehearsal at the beginning. That's just exquisite. But also that

1168
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 3: movie is gross. I would not recommend it at all.

1169
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 2: So it's it's a deeper cut, not for everybody. It's

1170
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 2: not near as fun as Troll too. Troll two is

1171
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 2: for the children, and I mean, well, don't take me

1172
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 2: to the bank on that, but it's I feel like

1173
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 2: it's more.

1174
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 4: Creative before you show it to your children. But yeah,

1175
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 4: certainly more than Night Killer.

1176
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, night Killer is not for most people, but it's

1177
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 2: out there as well. And you know that Fragatso has

1178
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 2: an entire filmography that's worth exploring as well. We mentioned

1179
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 2: Best Worst Movie as a documentary worth checking out about

1180
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 2: the making of Troll two and sort of the the

1181
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 2: culture of its acceptance by cult film fans. I also

1182
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 2: want to point out that there's an excellent episode of

1183
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 2: CBC's Ideas, which is a radio show podcast. They did

1184
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 2: an episode on cult films titled the Cult Movie Cannon,

1185
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 2: and they discuss like what makes a cult film? Why

1186
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 2: do we keep coming back to them? And they mentioned

1187
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 2: several films, but there is a segment on Troll two

1188
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 2: that is notable.

1189
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 3: Oh cool, You've sent me that to check out before,

1190
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 3: and I apologize that I never got around to it.

1191
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 3: Now I feel bad. Well, I have to go back

1192
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 3: and listen to that now.

1193
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. They talk about Repo Man, they talk about The

1194
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 2: Last Dragon. It's a fun, fun listen. They also interview

1195
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 2: some experts on bad movies and cult films.

1196
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 3: Oh wait, there's one more I have to mention before

1197
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 3: we quit, because it's one that's not really worth watching

1198
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 3: in full because it's pretty boring on its own, but

1199
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 3: it's a good one to sort of put on and

1200
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 3: catch a snip of here and there. And it's called

1201
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 3: Robo War. This was not directed by Claudio for Grosso.

1202
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 3: I think it was written by him.

1203
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 2: And they're directed by Bruno.

1204
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 3: Oh okay, Yeah, And this one is a just blatant

1205
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 3: ripoff of Predator. Came out a year or two after Predator,

1206
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 3: and it has the guy who plays blast Hard Cheese

1207
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 3: in Space Mutiny Red Brown. Yes, he's playing the Arnold

1208
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 3: Schwarzenegger role, and the Predator in it is this cyborg.

1209
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 3: So if you watch the movie with the Google auto

1210
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 3: generated subtitles on it's on YouTube, and you get it

1211
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 3: to come up with the subtitles. The robot is sort

1212
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 3: of mumbling in all of its scenes where it's stalking people,

1213
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 3: and it keeps saying what YouTube thinks is greasy target

1214
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 3: center And that phrase is in my head forever.

1215
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: The target center. That should have been the title.

1216
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 4: Okay, that's it from me.

1217
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 2: All Right, we're gonna go ahead and close out this

1218
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 2: episode of Weird House Cinema. But in the meantime, we'd

1219
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 2: love to hear from everybody. Do you think this is

1220
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 2: a wise use of our time? Do you have problems

1221
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 2: with all of this? Let us know about that. But

1222
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 2: even more of the point, what other weird films should

1223
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 2: we consider for the future, not only bad films, you know,

1224
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 2: not only be movies, but just films that have some

1225
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 2: element of weirdness to them. What would you like to

1226
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 2: hear us discuss on the show. Let us know. In

1227
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 2: the meantime, if you want to listen to episodes of

1228
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, which again come out every

1229
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday, and maybe you want to listen to

1230
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 2: the occasional episode of Weird House Cinema on Fridays, well

1231
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 2: you can find Stuff to Blow your Mind wherever you

1232
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 2: get your podcast. That is the show. That is the feed.

1233
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 2: That is the podcast feed in which you find this show.

1234
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

1235
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 3: Nicholas Johnson. If you'd like to get in touch with

1236
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 3: us with feedback on this episode or any other, to

1237
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 3: suggest topic for the future, just to say hello, you

1238
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 3: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

1239
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

1240
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1241
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1242
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.