Speaker 1: The seven circles as well as your spiritual, physical, mental,
Speaker 1: emotional state of being. They're inextricably connected, and if you
Speaker 1: think of them in a visual sense, if you grab
Speaker 1: one and you wobble it, it's going to move everything else.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think,
Speaker 1: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 1: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 1: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 1: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 1: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Speaker 1: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
Speaker 1: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 1: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Our guest on this episode is Chelsea Luger and Thosh Collins.
Speaker 1: Chelsea is a writer and wellness advocate originally from North Dakota.
Speaker 1: She's an enrolled member of the Turtle Mountain Band of
Speaker 1: Chippewa and descendant of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe. She
Speaker 1: has an undergraduate degree from Dartmouth College concentrating on comparative
Speaker 1: histories of global Indigenous cultures, and later earned an MS
Speaker 1: and Digital Media at Columbia University. She's the co founder
Speaker 1: of Well for Culture, and her writing has appeared in
Speaker 1: The Atlantic, Huffington's Post, Yes Magazine, and others. Thosh is
Speaker 1: a photographer, board member for the Native Wellness Institute and
Speaker 1: co founder of Well for Culture. He is an acmel
Speaker 1: Odom Seneca cayuga O sage born and raised in the
Speaker 1: Salt River Reservation. He serves on the Salt Pima Maricopa
Speaker 1: Landboard and is politically and culturally active within that community. Today,
Speaker 1: Eric Chelsea and Thosh discussed their book, The Seven Circles
Speaker 1: Indigenous Teachings for Living Well. Hi, Thought and Chelsea, Welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Hi, thank you so much for having us. Hello,
Speaker 1: thanks for having us. Yeah, it's a pleasure to have
Speaker 1: you guys on. We are going to be discussing your book,
Speaker 1: which is called The Seven Circles Indigenous Teachings for Living Well.
Speaker 1: But before we do that, let's start with the parable.
Speaker 1: Like we always do. There's a grandparent who's talking with
Speaker 1: their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two
Speaker 1: wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One
Speaker 1: is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 1: bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second
Speaker 1: and looks up at their grandparents as well. Which one wins,
Speaker 1: and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to are off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. I like that question. I like that story,
Speaker 1: and I always reflect on a lot of original Indigenous
Speaker 1: teachings and a lot of our creation stories across various
Speaker 1: indigenous nations have these stories about how there's always been
Speaker 1: two forces and there's been this struggle for for balance
Speaker 1: and harmony between two forces that is told in a
Speaker 1: number of different stories. But that's the general concept to that,
Speaker 1: and listening to the creation stories where I come from,
Speaker 1: they talk of these things here, and it even comes
Speaker 1: down to what's happening inside of our own selves, our
Speaker 1: own mental, spiritual, physical, emotional being. And what that means
Speaker 1: to me is that there is these these forces at
Speaker 1: work constantly and it just is. And I know as
Speaker 1: human beings, and with our work, we try to pave
Speaker 1: a way for things such as love and kindness and
Speaker 1: compassion to be demonstrated in the world and in our
Speaker 1: coming generations. We work hard to do that, but we
Speaker 1: also understand that there's all ways forces opposite of that
Speaker 1: at work, and that's the way of the world, and
Speaker 1: there's nothing that is human beings. We don't have the
Speaker 1: power to change that. And it's expressed even in the
Speaker 1: natural world. You know, when you go out to the
Speaker 1: world and you see you know, the animal nations, you
Speaker 1: know how treacherous they can be, or catastrophic events in
Speaker 1: our world. It's it's represented in a number of different
Speaker 1: aspects of our world and it just is. And I
Speaker 1: think that's something that we in our work we accept that.
Speaker 1: We try to teach seven circles as a life of
Speaker 1: living well, but we also understand there's always going to
Speaker 1: be struggle in our world because it is the way
Speaker 1: it is, that the natural way of this and is
Speaker 1: human beings. We have to accept that. So I have
Speaker 1: those struggles on a daily basis to in my healing journey,
Speaker 1: and I have to choose to feed the wolf there
Speaker 1: that is trying to foster wellness and kindness and love
Speaker 1: and compassion in my own life, my family and community.
Speaker 1: So that's what that means to me. Thank you. I
Speaker 1: have a question, which is the origin of this parable?
Speaker 1: You know, originally I heard it and it started with
Speaker 1: a Cherokee grandfather said. So, I've heard very differing things
Speaker 1: about whether this is actually a Native American parable story
Speaker 1: or not, and so I just don't attribute it anywhere.
Speaker 1: But I'm kind of curious. Do you guys have a
Speaker 1: sense of its origin? Does it feel like it's from
Speaker 1: your culture or does it feel like it's not. I guess,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm asking you to speculate. But yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a good question, and I think you're wise to take
Speaker 1: the origin story of it with a sense that it
Speaker 1: could be potentially false. Neither of us are Cherokee or
Speaker 1: from that nation, so I can't say for sure, but
Speaker 1: I would imagine that if it were a Cherokee proverb
Speaker 1: or story, there's probably a lot more to it than
Speaker 1: that small piece of it that is commonly shared and
Speaker 1: I have heard it as well before, so I can't
Speaker 1: say for sure, but I would say that if it
Speaker 1: is from the Cherokee Nation, they're more than likely is
Speaker 1: quite a bit even more context that we don't have
Speaker 1: access to in this moment, got it, And we'll get
Speaker 1: to this probably at some point in the conversation, you know,
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation, right. I don't want to be taking a
Speaker 1: story and not giving proper attribution. But I've had Cherokee
Speaker 1: people both say yes and no, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know then, Okay, so you know, it's a
Speaker 1: useful story. We'll kind of leave it there it is,
Speaker 1: and it's totally fine to say, you know, exactly what
Speaker 1: you said, this has been attributed to the Chaich nation,
Speaker 1: but it might not be either, So yeah, we just
Speaker 1: have to wonder. I think what also is interesting though,
Speaker 1: is that again, like across many different cultures of the world,
Speaker 1: there is the concept of these two forces at work.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's such a great story and
Speaker 1: a great parable, you know, to pose to people and
Speaker 1: ask what that means to them, because I think we
Speaker 1: can all agree that that's something that's pretty commonly shared
Speaker 1: across the world. Yeah, there's certainly it's not biblical, right,
Speaker 1: but in a Christian tradition they'll talk about a devil
Speaker 1: in an angel on each shoulder, right whispering different things,
Speaker 1: do you you know? And certainly in a lot of
Speaker 1: Eastern traditions there's the yin and the yang, and there's
Speaker 1: the you know, there's just the pull of opposites, seems
Speaker 1: to be in all wisdom traditions. So what I'd like
Speaker 1: to do next is start with something you guys say
Speaker 1: really early in the book, can you say together around
Speaker 1: the indigenous world from I don't know how to say
Speaker 1: this word aotario out there at some body word for
Speaker 1: New Zealand, Okay to Arizona to Alaska, there is one
Speaker 1: common practice that is shared by nearly all Native people.
Speaker 1: We begin with gratitude. Chelsea. You want to say we're
Speaker 1: about that absolutely, well, I'll just express like, we're so
Speaker 1: grateful to be here in this interview, to be interacting
Speaker 1: with you, getting to know you as as a human being.
Speaker 1: And then also that you came across our work and
Speaker 1: happened to find it inspiring enough to bring us in
Speaker 1: to connect with you and with your audience. And truly
Speaker 1: that's how we've been taught in in a way conditioned
Speaker 1: to approach life, and that is you know, indigenous culture
Speaker 1: is very diverse. There's thousands of indigenous nations and we
Speaker 1: have many different teaching different languages. Were so diverse, but
Speaker 1: one thing that you find in common between almost every
Speaker 1: nation is this attention to gratitude and this very sincere
Speaker 1: commitment to whatever we're starting out in our day, we
Speaker 1: need to start it in a good way. We need
Speaker 1: to start by giving thanks and by acknowledging the gift
Speaker 1: of simply being here or the abilities that we have
Speaker 1: that allow us to be here having this conversation. When
Speaker 1: we do that, we avoid taking things for granted, and
Speaker 1: then we avoid slipping into a negative mindset. So again,
Speaker 1: you know that negativity, like we talked about with the parable,
Speaker 1: it will come into play. Those negative thoughts or actions
Speaker 1: will inevitably be present and will rise because we're human
Speaker 1: and we can't help that, and we live in a
Speaker 1: world of balance, so those will come into play. But
Speaker 1: when we feed that wolf with things like gratitude, with
Speaker 1: things like not taking life for granted, that's one of
Speaker 1: the ways that we can consistently be actively on our
Speaker 1: wellness journey actively healing and actively countering those negative forces.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. You said something there, Chelsea that really struck me,
Speaker 1: and you said, we've been conditioned to be this way,
Speaker 1: And I think that's really powerful to realize that if
Speaker 1: you consistently repeat the process of being grateful, it starts
Speaker 1: to become a default condition. And that's one of the
Speaker 1: things that we talk about on the show a lot
Speaker 1: is we are very conditioned beings, but that conditioning can change,
Speaker 1: but it's little and often it's lots of repetition. So
Speaker 1: that was more a statement than a question. Might following
Speaker 1: question would be do you guys find times where it
Speaker 1: is hard to be grateful or do you find times
Speaker 1: where you do take things for granted? You're like, well,
Speaker 1: I know I should feel grateful for this house over
Speaker 1: my head, but I just don't. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, you
Speaker 1: know we have those times too, and I think that
Speaker 1: especially as parents with two small children, and we're constantly busy,
Speaker 1: and we're constantly in the home cleaning and doing dishes,
Speaker 1: and you know where it feels like it's never ending,
Speaker 1: and then we sometimes we get swept up in the
Speaker 1: local stuff, the small things around us, and we are
Speaker 1: taught also to that those are the times that we're
Speaker 1: supposed to reset, to sit down and to think about
Speaker 1: what we are grateful for and to remember that, and
Speaker 1: that changes our our behavior. And like we talked about
Speaker 1: in the book, this concept that in English language that
Speaker 1: talk about being gratitude, that those are concepts that you know,
Speaker 1: have been on our nation's for you know, generations, and
Speaker 1: we have many different types of ceremonies, not just on
Speaker 1: a certain you know, annual basis, but on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: that we're supposed to have those on our mind. There
Speaker 1: and then this certainly comes from people, you know who
Speaker 1: we're trying to thrive in these harsh climates and trying
Speaker 1: to survive and keep up with you know, the hunting
Speaker 1: of the fishing or planting seeds and not knowing if
Speaker 1: there was going to be an abundant harvest of planting
Speaker 1: and foraging, and people just had a different sense of
Speaker 1: what mattered, and they had a different sense of the
Speaker 1: elements in our world that contribute to their life today. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, there's many things that are offered in this
Speaker 1: age of plenty and convenience that sometimes we forget about
Speaker 1: how much things have to happen in order for us
Speaker 1: to just sit in our homes, in the comfort of
Speaker 1: our homes, and to get from a to b in
Speaker 1: a safe manner. You know, sometimes we get caught up
Speaker 1: and wrapped up in that. And that's why for us too,
Speaker 1: we try to implement daily practices. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that I usually do in the morning, and it's
Speaker 1: like split seconds when I'm first waking up is like
Speaker 1: I always take like a breath too, is I'm getting
Speaker 1: out of bed, and you know, I probably could pause
Speaker 1: a little bit longer, but when I'm waking up, I
Speaker 1: really breathe, and I try not to just lay in
Speaker 1: bed so much. I take a breath and I sit up,
Speaker 1: and even if I'm like back is tight and I'm
Speaker 1: sore from the other day, or you know, I don't
Speaker 1: feel a whole lot of energy at the moment, like
Speaker 1: I still in my mind, like there's like a split
Speaker 1: second of well, I'm glad, I'm living, I'm glad I'm breathing.
Speaker 1: And then sometimes when I get some coffee and me,
Speaker 1: then I'll sit there a little bit longer in the morning.
Speaker 1: And if I don't meditate, I at least sit there
Speaker 1: and I'm visualizing the day, and I'm giving kind of
Speaker 1: things for things. I'm trying to like reset before the
Speaker 1: day starts. I'm trying to not focus on the struggles
Speaker 1: of the day or not focusing on something that I
Speaker 1: know is going to be a challenge. I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to focus on what we have that's good health, family, opportunity,
Speaker 1: um roof over ahead and just trying to reset and
Speaker 1: trying to stay at that throughout the day. And it
Speaker 1: does get you challenging, you know, we get we are
Speaker 1: we are, you know, in a stressful times and it
Speaker 1: can be challenging for sure, but we always try to
Speaker 1: reel it back and we do little things in our
Speaker 1: household with our daughters, you know, on a weekly basis,
Speaker 1: to try to reset ourselves into that mind frame. How
Speaker 1: are your daughters right now? One and a half and
Speaker 1: four and a half? Okay, you are in the thick
Speaker 1: of it, Yeah, yeah, I have a twenty is it possible?
Speaker 1: Four year old son? Wow? It seems unbelievable, But from
Speaker 1: what we're here, we're going to get there in the
Speaker 1: blink of an eye. So it's such a cliche and
Speaker 1: yet it's so true. What's that phrase? The days are long,
Speaker 1: but the years are short, right, you know, with a
Speaker 1: one and a half year old, sometimes you're like, this
Speaker 1: day is never going to end. But the next thing
Speaker 1: you know, you're taking him to college. Yeah. I saw
Speaker 1: something online the other day that said, there's nothing I
Speaker 1: love more than my one year old, And there's also
Speaker 1: nothing I look forward more than seven thirty pm when
Speaker 1: when they go to sleep, And I'm like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: it's so true. I love bedtime totally. Yeah. It's such
Speaker 1: beautiful and rewarding and wonderful work and it's exhausting. It is, yes,
Speaker 1: like all good things in life. And that's why for
Speaker 1: the listeners out there, one of the things that will
Speaker 1: be a consistent theme that you'll find in our book
Speaker 1: is this concept of accepting the challenges, accepting that there
Speaker 1: will be negative, That we're not going to just arrive
Speaker 1: at this place of perfection and now we're healed and
Speaker 1: we're good and we're floating. That doesn't happen because we're human.
Speaker 1: We live in a world where you have challenges, you
Speaker 1: have hardship, you have stuff coming at you all the time,
Speaker 1: and so wellness isn't about being perfect or arriving at
Speaker 1: a perfect state. It's about accepting these and recognizing the
Speaker 1: ability to be grateful when things are going a little
Speaker 1: bit smoother, and recognizing that we are human and we
Speaker 1: can always return to balance, and being balance requires being
Speaker 1: out of balance, and it's just this constant returning to Yeah,
Speaker 1: you talk about wellness a lot in the book, and
Speaker 1: you do say that for you guys, it's not a
Speaker 1: perfect state of being. It's a state of preparedness for
Speaker 1: the inevitable hardships in life. It's a toolkit for steadiness.
Speaker 1: And there's a story in the book I'm wondering if
Speaker 1: you would share with us, which is of a dust storm,
Speaker 1: and I believe it was one of your parents or grandparents.
Speaker 1: So would you guys like to share that story because
Speaker 1: I think it's really well told in the book. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you like that story. So we sort of
Speaker 1: use it as a metaphor, and it's a true story.
Speaker 1: It's quite simple. We were just, you know, out and
Speaker 1: about as a family. We were swimming at the river
Speaker 1: one morning and then we didn't want to quite go home.
Speaker 1: The kids were sleeping in the car, and we pulled
Speaker 1: up to Thosh's dad's house on the reservation, and he
Speaker 1: came out and chit chat with us, you know, leans
Speaker 1: against the truck and on the passenger side, and he's
Speaker 1: telling us about his day. And see, I grew up
Speaker 1: in north the Coda. I'm relatively new to Arizona, which
Speaker 1: is where Thosh and his nation are from, and so
Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with dust storms, and i haven't seen
Speaker 1: many of them. And it was just out of nowhere
Speaker 1: to me, bright sunny day and then suddenly boom, it's
Speaker 1: almost like a tornado and you see it coming, you know,
Speaker 1: you have a few seconds to prepare, and it's coming
Speaker 1: toward us fast, and I'm kind of panicking. I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, what's happening here? And Tony's like, okay,
Speaker 1: we're fine. Just roll up the window. Gosh, goes Dad,
Speaker 1: do you want to hop in? He's like, no, I'm good.
Speaker 1: So thought rolls up the window and the dust and
Speaker 1: Tony pulls his a bucket hat over his head and
Speaker 1: just kind of leans into the car. But he's still
Speaker 1: standing outside and we just get peppered. The car surrounded.
Speaker 1: It's almost black, peppered with twigs and rocks and everything
Speaker 1: that the wind is, you know, whirling around us, and
Speaker 1: then it passes. The kids remain sleeping the whole time.
Speaker 1: Tony's laughing. We roll the window back down, you know,
Speaker 1: it hardly bothers him. And I just expressed that feeling
Speaker 1: of in my mind so grateful that we were able
Speaker 1: to shield our daughters from the storm. But then I
Speaker 1: looked at Tony, I observed his reaction, and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: even more than that, I hope that at some point
Speaker 1: they become resilient and able to handle something like a
Speaker 1: storm with the same amount of humor and grace and
Speaker 1: just you know, accepting these things happen in life. So
Speaker 1: to me, that dust storm was really just a metaphorical
Speaker 1: teaching that really just snapped into play in my mind
Speaker 1: in that moment as a parent, and I was just like, Wow,
Speaker 1: I want my daughters not to grow up shielded from everything,
Speaker 1: but to grow up being able to handle things and
Speaker 1: to have a certain amount of resilience and hardiness to them, right,
Speaker 1: because the storms of life will come, you know, sooner
Speaker 1: or later they will come. I'm not of those people
Speaker 1: who believes like we need to make things hard for
Speaker 1: our kids, because I believe life will just give it
Speaker 1: to them. But yeah, not shielding them, teaching them to
Speaker 1: deal with it on their own. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a beautiful teaching that Fosha's dad was able to show, you, guys, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And of course the further context of that is already
Speaker 1: having observed my father in law get through so much
Speaker 1: on a daily basis that he deals with in the
Speaker 1: same manner that he dealt with that storm. I mean
Speaker 1: truly hardships, you know, deaths, and community issues and political
Speaker 1: issues and all kinds of stuff that comes our way,
Speaker 1: and a lot of stories that I've heard of things
Speaker 1: that he has faced in his own life and just
Speaker 1: continuing to get through them and to continue to try
Speaker 1: to be there for others as well. There's an idea
Speaker 1: in your work, and it ties to this a little bit,
Speaker 1: which is you say you're moving beyond the question of
Speaker 1: what happened to you and further asking what is right
Speaker 1: with you? What are your gifts? What are the beneficial,
Speaker 1: beautiful and healing aspects of your life that you've inherited.
Speaker 1: And I think that's great because we do have to
Speaker 1: face our trauma, we do have to face the things
Speaker 1: that have happened, but that's not all that it's there,
Speaker 1: and I love the orientation to say, yes, that's there
Speaker 1: and thoughts you want to come in on that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, that's something that a lot of our really
Speaker 1: proactive thinking elder people always share. I've heard a lot
Speaker 1: and they've always encouraged us to We'll focus on our strength,
Speaker 1: They'll say, many times, let's not even talk about the
Speaker 1: trauma in this instance. Let's talk about our strengths. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about what we have been able to pass down
Speaker 1: over the generations and those tools, and let's talk about
Speaker 1: how are we going to apply these teachings in these
Speaker 1: practices today. Are life ways such as ceremony or practices
Speaker 1: around acquiring food, and our teachings that we follow to
Speaker 1: hold ourselves accountable to treat relatives and all living beings
Speaker 1: in a good way. Let's let's let's focus straight on those,
Speaker 1: and let's let's find out how are we going to
Speaker 1: bring those to the community, to the children, and how
Speaker 1: can we demonstrate those for the world. With that approach,
Speaker 1: your understanding that there is trauma and there is grief,
Speaker 1: there is a lot of things in the world that
Speaker 1: need fixing. But by focusing and being proactive on the
Speaker 1: solution then we are adopting strength based thinking, solution based thinking.
Speaker 1: We're shooting beyond just let's do this to mitigate symptoms. Instead,
Speaker 1: we're shooting beyond that. And the aim is to thrive
Speaker 1: in a spiritual, physical, mental emotional sense, to thrive in
Speaker 1: our indigenous sovereignty, to thrive in our economies are enterprises
Speaker 1: and indigenous communities. And I think that that's really something
Speaker 1: that we have to focus on collectively as all people.
Speaker 1: It's yes, it doesn't mean that you are ignoring the
Speaker 1: injustices that certain populations have endured. You're acknowledging all of those.
Speaker 1: But with the solution usitions here, we're shooting beyond that
Speaker 1: to heal and to cure. So much we're healing and
Speaker 1: curing things such as diabetes, depression, conditions like anxiety in
Speaker 1: the path of a striving for attaining thriving spiritual, physical,
Speaker 1: mental emotional wellness, thriving in our own life, family and community.
Speaker 1: So I think that's really what we try to talk
Speaker 1: about in there, and to be from that strength based,
Speaker 1: healing centered approach. You talk about how from the outside
Speaker 1: the narrative around indigenous culture is how broken it is,
Speaker 1: right and those of us who are more social justice
Speaker 1: oriented recognize the grave harm that has been done. But
Speaker 1: you talk about the only seeing that doesn't paint the
Speaker 1: full picture of who you are, and that you don't
Speaker 1: want that to be the only narrative that people see
Speaker 1: about Indigenous cultures. Yes, we want to recognize the harm done,
Speaker 1: but we also you want us to be recognizing the
Speaker 1: incredible resilience and beauty of your culture and traditions. Would
Speaker 1: that be an accurate way to say it, Yes, that's
Speaker 1: very accurate. We always say that you know our hardship
Speaker 1: and our trauma that we have faced indeed is a
Speaker 1: piece of our story, but it's not our full story.
Speaker 1: And just like any other human being or person or
Speaker 1: group who you encounter, until you can see them in
Speaker 1: all of their humanity, then you can't fully respect them
Speaker 1: or fully understand them as sort of a just like
Speaker 1: you and I type of basis. And I know that
Speaker 1: growing up and really to this day, if and when
Speaker 1: we ever see anything about Indigenous people, for example, on
Speaker 1: the news or in the papers, it's something to do
Speaker 1: with a hardship or a trauma. And often, in addition
Speaker 1: to that, there's not enough historical context for the viewer
Speaker 1: to understand that there's not anything wrong with us as people.
Speaker 1: It's what we've in through. It's this deeply rooted historical
Speaker 1: issue that has caused economic and political and social troubles
Speaker 1: in our communities today. They often leave out this huge
Speaker 1: part of our story in our history, which is what
Speaker 1: we write about in the book, which is that we
Speaker 1: were a people that were thriving and well and our
Speaker 1: communities had so much to offer, very fascinating political structures
Speaker 1: and cultural teachings and gifts and abundance, and our people
Speaker 1: really understood wellness, I think in a very deep way.
Speaker 1: And so as two individuals today who have done a
Speaker 1: lot of work on integrating our ancestral teachings and that
Speaker 1: have helped us on our spiritual journeys ever since we
Speaker 1: were children, were integrating those into the hardships that we
Speaker 1: also face in today's world. We recognize that these are
Speaker 1: tools that anybody can learn from, and we hope that
Speaker 1: folks now begin to see Indigenous culture in its fullness
Speaker 1: as opposed to just for some of the hardships that
Speaker 1: we face on a day to day basis. Hi, everyone,
Speaker 1: I wanted to personally invite you to a workshop that
Speaker 1: we are offering at the end of October at the
Speaker 1: Omega Institute, which is in the Hudson Valley in New York,
Speaker 1: and it is really beautiful this time of year. It's
Speaker 1: going to be a great chance to meet some wonderful people,
Speaker 1: recharge and relax while learning foundational spiritual habits that will
Speaker 1: allow you to establish simple daily prac This is that
Speaker 1: will help you feel more at ease and more fulfilled
Speaker 1: in your life. You can find details at one you
Speaker 1: feed dot net slash Omega. I'm really looking forward to
Speaker 1: meeting many of you there. I have a question that
Speaker 1: may lead us a variety of different directions past this.
Speaker 1: I really want to get into some of the Seven
Speaker 1: Circles stuff specifically. But one of the things about Native culture,
Speaker 1: and for very good reason. You'll probably explain the reasons
Speaker 1: in a minute. A lot of the beauty of your
Speaker 1: culture is shielded, right, It's sort of kept within the culture.
Speaker 1: And I wonder do you think to any degree that
Speaker 1: makes it hard for outsiders to see beyond the narrative
Speaker 1: of their only being hardship and trauma. And again, you
Speaker 1: can explain why you guys keep your ceremonies private. And
Speaker 1: I think it's very justifiable, but I'm curious what you
Speaker 1: think about that. So cultural appropriation is a big issue,
Speaker 1: and we do, as Native people today, have to be
Speaker 1: very careful about what we talk about, what we share
Speaker 1: at Native ceremonies. They're not events that are advertised or
Speaker 1: where photos are taken, or where videos or where we
Speaker 1: post on social media. Even at home, like Josh and I,
Speaker 1: we smudge and do stuff like that on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: and we never share that to social media because it's sacred.
Speaker 1: So it doesn't even make sense to be filming or
Speaker 1: taking photographs in the moment, because that takes us out
Speaker 1: of the moment, it takes us out of the purpose.
Speaker 1: The other issue is that this is a very long
Speaker 1: history of our people being mocked and stereotyped in many
Speaker 1: different contexts. The most prominent example I can think of
Speaker 1: his Indian mascots. We all know what Chief wall Who
Speaker 1: of the Cleveland Indians looks like. And when people see
Speaker 1: Indian mascots more often than they see real Native American people,
Speaker 1: then again, those stereotypes and those those mocking images as
Speaker 1: of us, they dehumanize us and they cause real political
Speaker 1: and social harm because then folks don't take us seriously
Speaker 1: when we do have political concerns or need to be
Speaker 1: heard as voices as a part of the rest of America.
Speaker 1: So yes, we have to keep our ceremonies close and sacred.
Speaker 1: The other reason being that our ceremonies were actually illegal
Speaker 1: until with the American Indian Religious Freedoms Act. So that
Speaker 1: is generations of time when our grandparents and their grandparents
Speaker 1: were at risk of going to jail or facing death
Speaker 1: by simply practicing our spirituality. Because there was a long
Speaker 1: period of history where residential schools were in place and
Speaker 1: our people were beaten and harmed, whether it was we
Speaker 1: spoke our languages or we prayed in the way that
Speaker 1: we pray, or those types of things. So all of
Speaker 1: that together leads us to this place today where we
Speaker 1: do have to be mindful and we ask folks to
Speaker 1: be respectful of our cultural privacy and of not engaging
Speaker 1: in cultural appropriation. And I also to like to add
Speaker 1: another view of perspective on how our communities function. A
Speaker 1: lot of our spiritual practices or ceremonial gatherings, they're very
Speaker 1: unique to very specific groups of people in very specific
Speaker 1: locations within our cultures. It's not comparable to Western religion
Speaker 1: or any other religion where you could join it like
Speaker 1: this is an institution that you can become a member of,
Speaker 1: where you can become, you know, involved with. All of
Speaker 1: our teachings and ceremonies are very unique to families. It's
Speaker 1: it's families that make up community. So it's very interpersonal
Speaker 1: with the people that that do that. And it's very
Speaker 1: much related to the region of land that our people
Speaker 1: have evolved on and have been on. So when people
Speaker 1: don't have the history in that land, they don't have
Speaker 1: history within the cultural context, then it may not do
Speaker 1: the same for them. So that's what you know. I
Speaker 1: think that a lot of people in the dominant culture,
Speaker 1: I guess understand some of this, this concept that our
Speaker 1: cultures are not something you can join. Spiritual practices are
Speaker 1: something that are very unique to these certain groups of people.
Speaker 1: I would just also say to that a lot of
Speaker 1: our regalia or our sacred items that we use, the feathers,
Speaker 1: the pain, different things that people find very appealing and attractive.
Speaker 1: I think when it's not understood that these are typically
Speaker 1: family heirloom items, or that there's this huge body of
Speaker 1: knowledge and historical context that's required to utilize these things,
Speaker 1: even if their intentions are the best possible intentions, it
Speaker 1: really becomes a mockery of our culture. And and of
Speaker 1: course that doesn't feel good. It feels quite harmful because
Speaker 1: everything has symbolism. A lot of the items we use,
Speaker 1: or the protocol which we take to conduct certain things,
Speaker 1: there's a very specific purpose with each and every one
Speaker 1: of them, and many people, if they're not raised within
Speaker 1: that context, they don't understand the meaning of some of
Speaker 1: these things. So when things are taken out of context
Speaker 1: and they're practiced in another setting, then it's really like
Speaker 1: a piece of a puzzle being taken from you know,
Speaker 1: you've got two or three pieces from a thousand piece
Speaker 1: puzzle and you're adding it with pieces from another puzzle
Speaker 1: and trying to make something of it. That's sort of
Speaker 1: you know what what what is said there? But to
Speaker 1: answer your question, to to get back to to really
Speaker 1: make sure that we answer your question. There is misconception
Speaker 1: because we do have to shield, we do have to
Speaker 1: protect ourselves, and so maybe that there are things about
Speaker 1: us that's not being seen. And I think that as
Speaker 1: dominant culture becomes more and more open to the history,
Speaker 1: I think that then we are seeing people the general
Speaker 1: populace start to become a little bit more aware and
Speaker 1: understanding of who indigenous people are of the United States
Speaker 1: and Canada and other parts of the Western hemisphere. I
Speaker 1: think that it seems like to me that they're people
Speaker 1: are becoming more and more open to understanding that, and
Speaker 1: we are seeing some sort of change and that being
Speaker 1: reflected and dominant culture. And I hope that in the
Speaker 1: ceremony chapter specifically, where we do explain a lot of
Speaker 1: this history, we do also explain ways that any person
Speaker 1: can engage in their own personal, authentic ceremony that is
Speaker 1: true to them and true to their history and is
Speaker 1: not in any way inappropriation of other cultures. Right. I mean,
Speaker 1: the first thing I'll say is, it's amazing how recent
Speaker 1: so much of this is. Like you said that it
Speaker 1: was illegal till nineteen seventy eight. I'm old enough that
Speaker 1: we played Cowboys and Indians as kids. That seems unfathomable
Speaker 1: to me now, but that was in my lifetime. That
Speaker 1: was a common game. You know, that was a seven
Speaker 1: year old. I'd not like blaming myself, but it is
Speaker 1: amazing how recent, Like in many ways the indigenous rights
Speaker 1: and the recognition of that trails even the civil rights movement,
Speaker 1: right because you know, nobody in nineteen seventy five or
Speaker 1: seventy seven when I was a little kid would have
Speaker 1: been playing blacks and whites, right like, we wouldn't have
Speaker 1: done that. We were past that. To some I'm not
Speaker 1: saying we're past racism, but I'm just struck by how
Speaker 1: re and all this is. You know that, how long,
Speaker 1: like you said, that your culture has been looked down
Speaker 1: on and appropriated and mocked, and how recent that is.
Speaker 1: And get this, my parents on both sides of my
Speaker 1: family have stories of cowboys and me means is a
Speaker 1: very popular game even on the reservation, and all the
Speaker 1: Native kids would want to be the cowboys. Yes, and
Speaker 1: because they internalize the hate and internalize the negativity about
Speaker 1: their own culture, and everybody wanted to be the cowboys.
Speaker 1: So yes, it's very recent that we're even able. Like
Speaker 1: I always say, I'm grateful that I'm able to be
Speaker 1: proud of myself today and proud of who I am,
Speaker 1: because it was no small feat for our parents generation
Speaker 1: to overcome these generations of racism and internalized hate that
Speaker 1: they experienced. Yep, ye. The second thing I was going
Speaker 1: to say, which is this discussion about practices being taken
Speaker 1: out of context. You know, my primary spiritual practices zen
Speaker 1: boot is um, and I practice within a lineage that
Speaker 1: has a long tradition. But there's a lot of discussion
Speaker 1: in the Buddhism slash meditation slash mindfulness world about what
Speaker 1: is secular mindfulness? Is it a helpful practice or is
Speaker 1: it having been stripped of its other Buddhist roots, primarily
Speaker 1: ethics and view right is it the right thing to
Speaker 1: do or not? And I think these are really interesting
Speaker 1: discussions that I don't know that there's right answers too.
Speaker 1: But I think we're going to continue to face as
Speaker 1: we enter a more globalized and interconnected world, and if
Speaker 1: more people continue to be interested in wellness and spiritual practices,
Speaker 1: this is going to continue. And how does this happen
Speaker 1: in a way that is respectful and it doesn't just
Speaker 1: yank something out of context, which not only could we
Speaker 1: say that that's problematic because it could be cultural appropriation,
Speaker 1: it's also problematic for the person because if you're applying
Speaker 1: a practice that on its own doesn't bring a lot
Speaker 1: of value, but for a lot of people mindfulness has
Speaker 1: so these sort of questions are sort of swimming in
Speaker 1: my world all the time where we are at on
Speaker 1: this horizon. I think in the United States and other
Speaker 1: Western developed countries, people looking for something greater to carve
Speaker 1: out a pathway because of what has been created or
Speaker 1: what has been proposed by dominant society, you know, isn't
Speaker 1: working for many people. And we see that kind of
Speaker 1: reflected in how the country is turning in a political sense,
Speaker 1: social culturally, we kind of see that being reflected that
Speaker 1: there is a great many people who are looking for
Speaker 1: something greater than Western religious ideology. They're looking for something
Speaker 1: of deeper spiritual substance. And I think, to me, it
Speaker 1: makes sense that, you know, there's other cultures around the
Speaker 1: world that have things to offer. And that's what our
Speaker 1: seven Circles really is. It's a template. It's a really
Speaker 1: basic template that's based on the original life ways of
Speaker 1: a lot of our people. It's a template that we
Speaker 1: feel we made it appropriate for all people to sort
Speaker 1: of follow someone of these guidelines right right there. So
Speaker 1: I think that those are good questions to ask, and
Speaker 1: I think that people should should remain open ended with
Speaker 1: these discussions at this time, and as we go further
Speaker 1: into the generations down the future, there may be better
Speaker 1: answers that will provide us with a better stance. But
Speaker 1: right now is a very nuanced conversations. They require a
Speaker 1: lot of nuance and understanding, and every situation, every person
Speaker 1: in their situation is different. So I would encourage everybody
Speaker 1: out there in the world to just let this be
Speaker 1: impending for a long time and then we start to
Speaker 1: better understand collectively, you know, how we go forward with
Speaker 1: what people are seeking. I think something that Thosh and
Speaker 1: I would always recommend and what we practice ourselves too,
Speaker 1: because we learn things from around the world and from
Speaker 1: different people that come from different walks of life than us.
Speaker 1: And it's always just this matter of treading lightly and
Speaker 1: that will sort of help you and guide you on
Speaker 1: your way on your spiritual journey. It's not feeling this
Speaker 1: need to immediately become certified or expert or you know,
Speaker 1: center of whatever practice you may be learning from, Like
Speaker 1: be very comfortable and humble about learning from a distance
Speaker 1: and taking things slowly and not necessarily having it on
Speaker 1: the forefront of your mind to be some kind of
Speaker 1: leader in that realm. And I think when we learn
Speaker 1: to tread lightly, we will all move through life much
Speaker 1: more easily. Now, that is a very difficult thing for
Speaker 1: a lot of people to do, because in Western culture,
Speaker 1: the instinct and what people are constantly being pushed towards
Speaker 1: is get that degree, get that certification, become that expert,
Speaker 1: gather all of the knowledge, and then you'll be respected.
Speaker 1: So it's something that we have to teach ourselves out of.
Speaker 1: We have to unlearn that instinct and be confident in
Speaker 1: being a student from a distance and a little bit
Speaker 1: more humble about it. And I think we'll go far
Speaker 1: in our spiritual your rays if we can begin to
Speaker 1: integrate that. I mean a couple of thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: The first is nuance is not particularly prevalent in most
Speaker 1: of our conversations today, which is unfortunate because it's exactly
Speaker 1: what we need. And that second thing that you're talking about,
Speaker 1: I think is really interesting because I think it comes
Speaker 1: from a good place, which is that, particularly in Western culture,
Speaker 1: we're told you should do what you love, you know,
Speaker 1: find a career that is meaningful. So if you've got
Speaker 1: a job that feels completely meaningless, you're working in a
Speaker 1: big corporation and suddenly you find this thing yoga that
Speaker 1: feels so meaningful to you. There's this natural push I
Speaker 1: see it in everything, Like if you make a good brownie,
Speaker 1: people start saying to you, like you should start a
Speaker 1: brownie store. It's so endemic in the culture. And again,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is people who are
Speaker 1: seeking deeper meaning in life. And that's not a bad thing.
Speaker 1: But you're right, there is a period of being a
Speaker 1: student before you become a teacher. I think you have
Speaker 1: to be a student for a while before you become
Speaker 1: a teacher. Let's pivot to the seven circles a little bit.
Speaker 1: Do you want to run us through just kind of
Speaker 1: what the seven are real quick and then maybe we
Speaker 1: can pick a couple to go a little deeper. And
Speaker 1: we're not going to have time to dive into each
Speaker 1: of them, but maybe we can give the overview. Yeah,
Speaker 1: seven circles is um we have a relationship to food,
Speaker 1: water is also including their sleep, movement, ceremony, sacred space,
Speaker 1: connection to community, and connection to land. So seven of them.
Speaker 1: So for the listeners, I would like to encourage you
Speaker 1: to think about that these are in a circle and
Speaker 1: think of a clock. Food is like around twelve you know,
Speaker 1: and then around three would be where like ceremony is
Speaker 1: and you know, it goes all the way around in
Speaker 1: a circle. You are at the center of that circle.
Speaker 1: And the different practices you have with each of these
Speaker 1: seven life ways reflects your spiritual, physical, mental, and emotional state.
Speaker 1: You're at the center of it. But if you reach
Speaker 1: your hands outward and you make a circle, if you
Speaker 1: put your hands and extend them and then you twist around,
Speaker 1: you're gonna make like a circle, and then the circumference
Speaker 1: and just think about your circle is also a space
Speaker 1: where you have people that are you're connected to, that
Speaker 1: you love, that, people that you cherish, people whose own
Speaker 1: overall health and wellness is affected by the way you live.
Speaker 1: So you are in that and those people all around
Speaker 1: you they have people too that are in there's and
Speaker 1: it goes on and on and on and all throughout
Speaker 1: the world. So there's us, there's family, and then outside
Speaker 1: of the families community, outside of community is the greater world.
Speaker 1: And we are a part of this interconnected world of
Speaker 1: living organisms. Amongst small microorganisms that we can't see, amongst
Speaker 1: the four leggeds, amongst the finned, amongst the winged, we
Speaker 1: are a part of all of that there, So we're
Speaker 1: not at the center of it, We're somewhere in the
Speaker 1: middle of it. We are a part of this interconnected,
Speaker 1: you know, network of living organisms. So seven circles is
Speaker 1: really all of that. Is all of that, we all
Speaker 1: law of teachings associated with it, such as kindness, love, compassion, honor, respect, bravery, honesty.
Speaker 1: We have all these teachings that are also associated with
Speaker 1: the seven circles. You touched on it for a second there,
Speaker 1: which was these four parts of existence mental, physical, emotional,
Speaker 1: and spiritual, and you use the native symbol of the
Speaker 1: medicine wheel to signify that. Do you want to say
Speaker 1: a little bit more about the medicine wheel. Yeah, absolutely. So.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons that we created this model of
Speaker 1: seven circles is because everything else that we were seeing
Speaker 1: at the time in the modern wellness industry was organized
Speaker 1: by lists or by pillars, and something that was inherent
Speaker 1: about our way of thinking because of the way we
Speaker 1: were raised with our spirituality, is that we saw things
Speaker 1: more interconnected, and we saw these barriers and this categorical
Speaker 1: thinking as a bit of a hindrance because in fact,
Speaker 1: you can't separate all these different areas of life or
Speaker 1: separate them out on your this journey. There are all
Speaker 1: interconnected and they impact one another. And so one of
Speaker 1: the reasons that we understand that is because of this
Speaker 1: ancient symbol called the medicine wheel. Now this is more
Speaker 1: so from my culture because I'm Lakota and Ojibwe is
Speaker 1: just from the northern plains region, and this is something
Speaker 1: I was raised with from childhood, and Dash has other
Speaker 1: things that he also grew up with that are more
Speaker 1: from his nation that also teach this cyclical way of thinking.
Speaker 1: But the medicine wheel is a circle divided into four
Speaker 1: parts mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional. There's four colors black, red, yellow,
Speaker 1: and white. And from each of those quadrants come different
Speaker 1: animal or nations or different elemental forces or different things
Speaker 1: that give us life. And so learning to pray and
Speaker 1: to understand the medicine wheel allowed me to always understand
Speaker 1: that these areas of our life impact each other. We
Speaker 1: have to strive to live and balance. And so the
Speaker 1: way that I can describe it is like an author
Speaker 1: of fiction today might have certain ancient literary texts that
Speaker 1: in a very deep way can influence their art or
Speaker 1: the way that they write, so for us as wellness practitioners,
Speaker 1: the medicine wheel is something that's very ancient and very
Speaker 1: old and ubiquitous at this point amongst indigenous people, people
Speaker 1: from all nations have probably seen it, and it influences
Speaker 1: our way of thinking or mine, at least as an individual.
Speaker 1: And so while the medicine wheel is an ancient symbol
Speaker 1: that has helped to inform and help us to come
Speaker 1: up with our understanding of wellness as being cyclical and interconnected,
Speaker 1: the Seven Circles is something that we created on our
Speaker 1: own as as individuals. What you basically are doing in
Speaker 1: the book is you've got the seven circles, which thoughst
Speaker 1: just listed out, and then within each of those, you
Speaker 1: look at that circle through that lens of mental, physical, emotional,
Speaker 1: and spiritual. So you're really bringing it together. And I
Speaker 1: agree with you. I never thought of it before. But
Speaker 1: the idea of pillars is they are separate from each other.
Speaker 1: They do support something. So but one of the things
Speaker 1: you guys talk about in the book a lot, and
Speaker 1: I think it's so wise, is that these things aren't separate,
Speaker 1: and the more that you can combine them, the easier
Speaker 1: your life gets. Movement as an example, you say that
Speaker 1: Indigenous people just moved as part of life. Obviously our
Speaker 1: modern world isn't that way, but the more we can
Speaker 1: make it that way, the better. And you talk a
Speaker 1: lot about like your kids are involved in your movement,
Speaker 1: So these different circles overlap, so it's not like you've
Speaker 1: got to find time for seven different circles, right, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of time where one activity done in a
Speaker 1: certain way may actually hit multiple of these circles for you,
Speaker 1: and I just love the way you put that together
Speaker 1: in the book. Yeah, we like to encourage everyone to
Speaker 1: understand that all these seven circles, as well as your spiritual, physical, mental,
Speaker 1: emotional state of being, they're inextricably connected, and if you
Speaker 1: think of them in a visual sense, if you grab
Speaker 1: one and you wobble it, it's going to move everything else.
Speaker 1: Just like what you just said, for instance, like connection
Speaker 1: to land really, in my mind, is pretty much involved
Speaker 1: in every single one of these circles, because the land
Speaker 1: and our relationship to the land with all human beings
Speaker 1: really is what allowed us to be how we are
Speaker 1: today and is for Native people were all land ace
Speaker 1: cultures and always say that the land has curated our
Speaker 1: cultures and how it goes today, It curates how we
Speaker 1: interact with it. So the land is I guess you
Speaker 1: could also say to overarching in a sense, but for me,
Speaker 1: it's it's ubiquitous across all of these various circles. So
Speaker 1: like what you just said to speak to your statement
Speaker 1: a little while ago that say, if we were to
Speaker 1: get out on the land seasonally and we were to
Speaker 1: forage or hunt or fish something with family members, there's
Speaker 1: a lot going on right there because we are we
Speaker 1: are facilitating or we are fostering this connection to the land. Also,
Speaker 1: before we start harvesting, if we recite words of giving
Speaker 1: thanks towards, really you're speaking to all things. You're not
Speaker 1: just speaking to the people in your group. You're making
Speaker 1: a statement to and some people might say the universe.
Speaker 1: You're making a statement to a great source of creation
Speaker 1: that created everything. You're giving thanks to the sunlight that
Speaker 1: provided the medicine and the power for these plants to grow.
Speaker 1: You're giving thanks that these microorganisms all played a role
Speaker 1: in allowing them, and you're you're giving thanks for this
Speaker 1: ability to consume them, and you're letting the plant know
Speaker 1: that you're asking for it, to forgive you for taking
Speaker 1: pieces of it. But as you do that, you're doing
Speaker 1: it to nourish yourself in the family and the people here.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot going on there because then we're
Speaker 1: thinking about what we're fostering this greater, deeper, more meaningful
Speaker 1: connection to a food source, and we all need food,
Speaker 1: and you're doing it from the land which you live upon,
Speaker 1: and for Native people were doing something that has been
Speaker 1: done for thousands of years. We're just playing out that
Speaker 1: role and we're doing it with people that we love.
Speaker 1: And so you're doing all these things right here. And
Speaker 1: so you have the circle of family, community, you have
Speaker 1: the circle of connection to land, you have the circle
Speaker 1: of food. You have the circle of movement. Because you're
Speaker 1: you're moving, you're getting out and maybe you're doing this
Speaker 1: fast and you know you're getting out. You're taking you know,
Speaker 1: several thousand steps walking around the land, picking berries, picking roots,
Speaker 1: picking cactus buds, you know, wild beans, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: You're just putting in lots of steps there. So you're
Speaker 1: moving to and you're also giving thanks for what health
Speaker 1: you have to be able to move across the and
Speaker 1: to do that right there. And then you're acknowledging your
Speaker 1: place and the greater network of all living beings that
Speaker 1: you acknowledge. You're not at the center of it, and
Speaker 1: things don't revolve around you, but you're somewhere in the
Speaker 1: middle between the end and the center of it. The
Speaker 1: center is the great creator, whatever that is that created everything.
Speaker 1: So you know, I'd just like to share that to
Speaker 1: give the listener is another understanding of how all these
Speaker 1: things are interconnected right there, and how they all sort
Speaker 1: of impact us in different ways. So within that what
Speaker 1: I just expressed, people are starting to feel a sense
Speaker 1: of connectedness. You're feeling belonging, sense of belonging. You've you
Speaker 1: experienced a sense of purpose, and you now have another
Speaker 1: purpose about why you're living, and it's to seek this
Speaker 1: this harmony and balance that I just described there. I
Speaker 1: think that's such a great example because you really do
Speaker 1: bring all these different elements together. And I do think
Speaker 1: in our modern world, unless we choose to step out
Speaker 1: of it, which most of us aren't going to do,
Speaker 1: we are really busy and so and you say this
Speaker 1: so well in the book. We can't keep looking to
Speaker 1: find more time that we take to be well. We
Speaker 1: have to bring the wellness, the spirituality, the connection into
Speaker 1: what we're already doing because there's only so much time.
Speaker 1: There's only so much time, and so if you can
Speaker 1: be strategic and find ways to do that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I created a course called Spiritual Habits, and that's the
Speaker 1: heart of the idea, is exactly that, Like you don't
Speaker 1: have more time for a whole lot of extra practices,
Speaker 1: how do we weave these ideas through every part of
Speaker 1: our life? Integration? Well, I would love to take your
Speaker 1: course because it is something that again you know, we're
Speaker 1: the first admit we're not perfect at this. We're constantly
Speaker 1: striving and having to try to pull ourselves back into balance.
Speaker 1: And integration truly is the key. It's necessary because, like
Speaker 1: you said, we are so busy, we are in this noisy,
Speaker 1: chaotic world, and we really have to strive to integrate
Speaker 1: a lot of these movement and food and ceremony, in
Speaker 1: these different teachings into our day to day. Yep. So
Speaker 1: let's stay on land for a second because I wanted
Speaker 1: to touch on something that you said there in the book,
Speaker 1: and you say, the capitalist notion of land separates into
Speaker 1: two categories. Natural and developed this idea along with The
Speaker 1: myth that indigenous people and pre contact times lived here
Speaker 1: and there on mostly empty land they did nothing with
Speaker 1: has been one of the most harmful ideas used against
Speaker 1: Indigenous people. So talk to me about this, you know,
Speaker 1: natural and developed land. And then maybe the following of
Speaker 1: that would be, how do people who feel like they're
Speaker 1: not in the natural world connect to land? Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a great question. And you know, for us, what we're
Speaker 1: taught is that the land is everywhere. Whether we're in
Speaker 1: the middle of a city or a suburb or out
Speaker 1: in the country, we're still we're always on the land.
Speaker 1: We should always respect the earth where we are, and
Speaker 1: to separate it kind of does us a service because
Speaker 1: a it makes us feel like we can't connect to
Speaker 1: the land unless we are in this prestigent National Park area,
Speaker 1: and be it makes us feel like these urban areas
Speaker 1: are just too far gone. You know, there's no sense
Speaker 1: in carrying any more deeply for this mother earth that
Speaker 1: we're on in the suburbs, because it's already developed, you know.
Speaker 1: So I think what we encourage is just a shift
Speaker 1: towards remembering that really the earth is everywhere and it's
Speaker 1: up to us to recognize and respect the land, and
Speaker 1: we can connect to the earth no matter where we are,
Speaker 1: because we always see the sky above us, the sun.
Speaker 1: There's typically an area, even in an urban environment, we
Speaker 1: can find grass, We can find outdoor areas to walk,
Speaker 1: and we can continue to prioritize the cultivation of those
Speaker 1: areas and to call into question when there is thoughtless development,
Speaker 1: or to begin to think maybe we do prioritize green
Speaker 1: spaces in our cities more than what the generation before
Speaker 1: us did. So we have agency in these processes, and
Speaker 1: I think that once we begin to appreciate the land
Speaker 1: wherever we are, it really benefits us holistically. There's a
Speaker 1: painful of words in the English language that I objectively
Speaker 1: don't use, and one of them is nature. The word
Speaker 1: nature for the concept of nature too. In our languages,
Speaker 1: we don't have words for natural. In nature, we have
Speaker 1: words that describe the great spirit of great creation or
Speaker 1: source of energy, a life force that created everything. We
Speaker 1: have words that describe that, and I guess that for
Speaker 1: myself those are sort of along the lines that I
Speaker 1: like to I guess speak in those terms. But even
Speaker 1: before we got really on this healing journey and doing
Speaker 1: our work, I didn't use that word nature as well too,
Speaker 1: because we were raised doing a lot of stuff on
Speaker 1: the land. You know, we we have revitalized a lot
Speaker 1: in our generation. There was a lot that our parents
Speaker 1: generation didn't know about doing on the land, and a
Speaker 1: lot of us had revitalized that and to become the
Speaker 1: norm there. But the concept of nature, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: like Chelsea said earlier, the concept of nature, it teaches
Speaker 1: people there's a separation, so people separate themselves from that.
Speaker 1: And I think that when that happens there, the separation
Speaker 1: happens in the mind. That affects and behavior patterns as
Speaker 1: well collectively, in both individually, and I think that it's
Speaker 1: important for people to understand that, yes, the land is
Speaker 1: everywhere upon us. In this home here we're sitting in
Speaker 1: a house. We have natural light coming in. When we
Speaker 1: talk about the land, that's what we talk about. The
Speaker 1: lights coming in here and it's bringing blessings, and air
Speaker 1: is all around us. We're breathing that. It's all around
Speaker 1: us here. We step outside and oftentimes you might see,
Speaker 1: you know, trees that are ornamental, but still nonetheless they
Speaker 1: are trees. They're they're giving off oxygen. Whatever sort of
Speaker 1: weather is outside, whether it's cold, crisp air, cloudy, rainy, sunny,
Speaker 1: the land is all around us, and I think that
Speaker 1: it's important for people to first just think knowledge that
Speaker 1: when they step outside. Just to answer you the second
Speaker 1: part of your question is that people can start really
Speaker 1: simply by first stepping out of the door or the
Speaker 1: office or the school. And when you when you're walking
Speaker 1: on the land, try to abstain from using the electronic
Speaker 1: devices and just take a moment to just acknowledge what's
Speaker 1: around you here. Acknowledge these these elements that are allowing
Speaker 1: you to to live the area right here, the sun
Speaker 1: right here, or cool weather that might be making it
Speaker 1: possible for you to be out there, or the warm
Speaker 1: weather that might be making it possible for you to
Speaker 1: out there. Just start simply by acknowledging these things, and
Speaker 1: then make it a part of your personal practice to
Speaker 1: be objective about Okay, let's get out of the city
Speaker 1: a little bit. Let's get out and do things. And
Speaker 1: then in time, maybe we learn about foraging seasonally. Then
Speaker 1: we're following seasons, then we're connecting to land there. Maybe
Speaker 1: let's learn how to if they don't already do it,
Speaker 1: what can we fish and hunt, even if it's just
Speaker 1: something a little bit, what can we grow on our
Speaker 1: window seal or in the backyard, you know, what can
Speaker 1: we grow to just include that's connection to land. All
Speaker 1: these things are very very base, simple connection to land
Speaker 1: that I think that a lot of people can implement
Speaker 1: early on. And then I think just to give people
Speaker 1: another example of how to implement that concept with some
Speaker 1: of the bigger decisions we make in life. Is, for example,
Speaker 1: we have some land where we're eventually going to build
Speaker 1: a house, and because this is the way that we think,
Speaker 1: our goal is not to build the biggest house that
Speaker 1: we can afford, because you have to think long term, like,
Speaker 1: not only does that take up more actual land and
Speaker 1: space aware from where we could be running around outside
Speaker 1: or growing things or you know, adding onto our field
Speaker 1: of food that we already have, but also it requires
Speaker 1: more energy, more electricity to cool because we live in
Speaker 1: the desert, and just in general it makes us much
Speaker 1: bigger consumers, so we have to buy more furniture and
Speaker 1: feel you know, So our goal is to build as
Speaker 1: small of a house as we're comfortable living in, so
Speaker 1: that we have less of a footprint. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of like some of the ways that as individuals we
Speaker 1: can actually make a really big difference if we just
Speaker 1: start to view life a little bit differently. And that
Speaker 1: is such an interesting shift because the dominant Western idea
Speaker 1: has always been bigger house, bigger house, bigger house, bigger house.
Speaker 1: But when you really think about it, like you guys
Speaker 1: just laid it out, it doesn't make a lot of sense,
Speaker 1: Like why do I need five extra rooms that nobody
Speaker 1: ever uses? Like what is that accomplished? You know, what
Speaker 1: is that actually done versus you know, sort of what
Speaker 1: it costs. And you guys talk about having a subsistence worldview,
Speaker 1: maybe you could say a little bit about what that means. Right,
Speaker 1: So we encourage folks to adapt a subsistence worldview, meaning
Speaker 1: we don't have often the ancestral technology or the knowledge
Speaker 1: or the land base even to live a subsistence lifestyle
Speaker 1: as our ancestors did, or you know, even as native
Speaker 1: people are hunting grounds and our agricultural systems and everything
Speaker 1: has been taken away due to capitalism. But what we
Speaker 1: do encourage is for folks to begin simply respecting the
Speaker 1: earth as something that provides life, something that we all need,
Speaker 1: something that is our caretaker. We are not the stewards
Speaker 1: of the land. The land takes care of us, and
Speaker 1: everything we use and eat and need comes from the land.
Speaker 1: So once we begin to recognize that, I think that
Speaker 1: it just comes naturally to make decisions in our life
Speaker 1: that are a little bit less environmentally harmful. And we
Speaker 1: know too, Again I have to always say it, we're
Speaker 1: not perfect at this. We are consumers, we are residents
Speaker 1: of cities. I mean, there's so much that we could
Speaker 1: be doing better at and we're trying, and we're learning,
Speaker 1: and this is a process for everyone, and we just
Speaker 1: want to say that we're right there with you and
Speaker 1: trying to go through this process as best as possible.
Speaker 1: So let's change direction here before we run out of space.
Speaker 1: Because one of the parts of the book that I
Speaker 1: love the most was the talking about ceremony. And I
Speaker 1: want to read a particular idea that you guys talk about.
Speaker 1: You say, remember, routines are good because they provide structure
Speaker 1: and order, but rituals add creativity, They add a deeper
Speaker 1: sense of meaning and purpose. So talk to me about
Speaker 1: the role of ceremony in life. And you know, kind
Speaker 1: of around that idea of routines, and rituals. So again,
Speaker 1: because of the fact that we grew up attending indigenous
Speaker 1: ceremonies that come from our tribes, our nations, we understand
Speaker 1: that it's important for people to have some semblance of
Speaker 1: ceremony in your life. And people can do this on
Speaker 1: a day to day basis, and even for us who
Speaker 1: attend these events with our nations, we also have to
Speaker 1: try to implement these and live this way and a
Speaker 1: day to day, not just while we're in the moment.
Speaker 1: And so we can incorporate ceremony by creating rituals that
Speaker 1: helped to uplift and elevate our consciousness even what otherwise
Speaker 1: could be a mundane day to day task. So, for example,
Speaker 1: instead of going through the motions, which is what a
Speaker 1: routine is, I do X, Y and Z. You add
Speaker 1: some amount of emotion or intention to that, and when
Speaker 1: you do that regularly, then suddenly you're living life ceremonially.
Speaker 1: So like with our daughter, Josh has such an awesome
Speaker 1: way of integrating that with our little girls and tell
Speaker 1: them what you do like with al every night before
Speaker 1: sleep most nights on a good night are four year old,
Speaker 1: when I'm put her to bed, I'll cuddle her, and
Speaker 1: then we'll do a short giving of thanks, like I'll
Speaker 1: tell our saying, we give thanks, and I use lots
Speaker 1: of our language. I give thanks to Atash the sunlight.
Speaker 1: We give thanks to Javatka, their mother earth here, and
Speaker 1: we give thanks to vot Air not the fire. We
Speaker 1: go down the list of a lot of elements and
Speaker 1: things that are important to us, like it's certain elements
Speaker 1: on the land here, it's the four legged nations, and
Speaker 1: we give thanks for like our our health. And Allo
Speaker 1: shall follow sleep to this too, so falls asleep to it,
Speaker 1: and so it's in her mind. It's in her mind,
Speaker 1: this this concept of like gratitude on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: you know, something that we practice. And if she's still awake,
Speaker 1: I'll say, tomorrow is another day, and tomorrow we have
Speaker 1: happy day, and we do good things, and we learn
Speaker 1: and we laugh, like I try to acknowledge like laughing,
Speaker 1: and try to acknowledge like learning and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and I acknowledge being okay with tantrums, you know, have
Speaker 1: something on like learning to deal with better patients with
Speaker 1: you know, four year old tantrums and things like that,
Speaker 1: which the more we do these things, there's a lot
Speaker 1: less of it in a day. I noticed that, And
Speaker 1: we're intentional about these things right there. But yeah, this
Speaker 1: is these are things that you could say, that's that's
Speaker 1: very ritualistic. You know. We encourage people to practice little
Speaker 1: things like that on a daily basis. Yeah, or even
Speaker 1: for myself, there's a big difference in my morning. If
Speaker 1: I just get right to emails and typing away on
Speaker 1: my phone and stuff, that's okay, that's part of my
Speaker 1: routine sometimes, yes, because I have to work. But if
Speaker 1: I take some time and space before that, and I literally,
Speaker 1: like you know, clean up my bedroom and light a
Speaker 1: candle and just sit there and take out a physical
Speaker 1: book and read a little bit of something that inspires me.
Speaker 1: And it might be completely irrelevant to what I have
Speaker 1: to do my task at hand, but it helps me
Speaker 1: because it clears space in my mind to be more
Speaker 1: productive and to be happier and to be more in
Speaker 1: the moment. And so I just think the more that
Speaker 1: we can integrate these moments of intention ritual into our
Speaker 1: lives and for that of our loved ones and our children,
Speaker 1: the more that we suddenly realize we're walking in a
Speaker 1: ceremonial way, We're integrating that every single day. Something that
Speaker 1: I do too in the in the mornings that I
Speaker 1: try to get up before the girls get up, like
Speaker 1: around five or thirty. Sometimes it just depends on how
Speaker 1: the day was before and how much sleep do I
Speaker 1: need it. You know, If I got to sleep at
Speaker 1: a decent time, then I can get up when I want,
Speaker 1: like which is like five thirty. I make it a
Speaker 1: point to not get on social media right way, getting
Speaker 1: not getting on emails and things like that right away.
Speaker 1: And one of my little rituals, as my coffee steeps
Speaker 1: when it's a good morning, when I'm doing what I
Speaker 1: would like to do, then the windows are open in
Speaker 1: the morning, light is just about to come in the dawnlight,
Speaker 1: and I should meditate and not I don't every morning,
Speaker 1: but I'll meditate. I'll meditate as my coffee steeps, and
Speaker 1: then I'll have my coffee and I sip it, and
Speaker 1: then it's more enjoyable there. And I try to just
Speaker 1: kind of sit with that for a little bit. Don't
Speaker 1: jump on the phone right away, because when you're getting
Speaker 1: straight to the phone and you're looking at social media,
Speaker 1: you're looking at news right away. I think what we
Speaker 1: are telling ourselves is that we're more concerning what's happening
Speaker 1: in the lives of other people than our own. So
Speaker 1: I think it's a good opportunity to kind of sit
Speaker 1: and visualize today, how do I want the state to go?
Speaker 1: How am I going to respond today? Everything is all
Speaker 1: about responding if you really think about it, right, We're
Speaker 1: responding all the time. How I want to respond? I
Speaker 1: want to respond proactive? Do I want to be hastily?
Speaker 1: Because sometimes I get hasty If I'm a little you know,
Speaker 1: irritable and I'm not taking care of myself, I have
Speaker 1: to ask myself, how do I want to respond today?
Speaker 1: And I'll try to, you know, make it that goal.
Speaker 1: Today's going to be a day where I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: a bit more productive and solution in my thinking. So
Speaker 1: that's just my little example of two. You know, how
Speaker 1: you can incorporate these things on a daily basis. I
Speaker 1: love that framing of you know, if you hop on
Speaker 1: email and social media, you're immediately becoming more concerned with
Speaker 1: other people's lives than your own. Um And of course
Speaker 1: a big part of our spiritual practice is concerned for
Speaker 1: other people's lives. But that's not what we're talking about here, right.
Speaker 1: You know, hopping on social media is not demonstrating concern
Speaker 1: for your community necessarily. That's a really good way to
Speaker 1: frame it. And I think this is a challenge that
Speaker 1: I mean, so many people face. I've had so many
Speaker 1: people on you know, I've had five hundred conversations and
Speaker 1: you know, people you would look at and you would
Speaker 1: they've got it all figured out, and they still are like,
Speaker 1: I'm wrestling with my phone in the morning, man, Like
Speaker 1: I can I can't, you know, turn on email first thing.
Speaker 1: You know, we all wrestle with this. These devices are
Speaker 1: so sticky. I feel like I'm in a constant battle
Speaker 1: with it where it's like Okay, I get ahead of
Speaker 1: it for a while, and I get like three or
Speaker 1: four months rom like okay, that's good, I've got you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not getting on the phone first thing the morning,
Speaker 1: and then it's somehow it creeps back in and the
Speaker 1: next thing I know, I'm like I'm doing it again,
Speaker 1: and then I got to work to get it out
Speaker 1: or at night. Yeah. But again, you know, it's because
Speaker 1: these technologies are so new that we don't have ancient
Speaker 1: systems of dealing with them. So it's our job for
Speaker 1: our generations to figure these things out, to start to
Speaker 1: create systems and modes of operating for the coming generations
Speaker 1: to follow, because they're going to deal with even more
Speaker 1: of it than we have. And so um steps like
Speaker 1: just being very intentional and start with your endgame, what
Speaker 1: do I want my relationship to technology to look like?
Speaker 1: And working back there and taking steps to get to
Speaker 1: that space. I want only you know, two hours of
Speaker 1: screen time per day, one hour of phone, one hour
Speaker 1: of computer. That's so minimal, by the way, that's very
Speaker 1: minimal compared to what most people are doing. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then you just work backward from there and you literally
Speaker 1: create a plan for yourself and try to follow it,
Speaker 1: just as you would create a diet or an exercise
Speaker 1: or some other kind of routine. You know, there's many
Speaker 1: mismatches in the modern day world to you know, our genes,
Speaker 1: there's many different things that were mismatched within a relationship.
Speaker 1: And two devices is new one. So we're in this
Speaker 1: early phase as human beings on learning how to coexist
Speaker 1: in a healthy way with the devices that make our
Speaker 1: lives easier. So it's important for everyone to encourage and
Speaker 1: not to feel guilty and get down yourself when you
Speaker 1: are falling back into that addictive phase with the devices.
Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to just be a little patient and
Speaker 1: just just gently Okay, I realized what doing. We put
Speaker 1: it aside and let me get back on track and
Speaker 1: not shame myself because you know, I have the whole
Speaker 1: day to kind of, you know, catch up. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think you said earlier, Chelsea, that part of balance is
Speaker 1: being out of balance, right. You know when I talk
Speaker 1: with coaching clients about Okay, we're trying to establish, let's say,
Speaker 1: a consistent daily meditation practice. Right, what I think I've
Speaker 1: gotten good at and now that I've got very consistent
Speaker 1: meditation and movement and habits is I get off the track,
Speaker 1: of course, But the amount of time I'm off of it,
Speaker 1: I've learned to shrink that instead of getting off the
Speaker 1: track for a week or a month, I'm off for
Speaker 1: a day and then I'm like, card, let's get back on.
Speaker 1: You know, because if we strive for perfection, and you
Speaker 1: guys talk a lot about this in the book, we
Speaker 1: get discouraged. If we think we should be doing this
Speaker 1: better or perfect we get discouraged and we don't try.
Speaker 1: There's there's a certain amount of recognizing like we're human.
Speaker 1: That's the way this world is. I love that idea
Speaker 1: that we don't have much time with these technologies to
Speaker 1: have developed the systems, and we know that there are really,
Speaker 1: really mark people who devote their lives to figure in
Speaker 1: out how to make sure we don't set the phone down.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying they're evil, that's just the that's
Speaker 1: the business model. The business models is our attention. That
Speaker 1: is what is being bought and sold, and we have
Speaker 1: to take that back in our own lives if we
Speaker 1: want it. Yeah. I mean I read an article and
Speaker 1: I think it was in the New York Times where
Speaker 1: they interviewed tech executives from all the big companies, and
Speaker 1: they all said that they actively keep their own children
Speaker 1: away from that stuff, yet it's their job to produce it,
Speaker 1: to make it addictive. So and that I think that
Speaker 1: answers a lot of questions for us right there totally.
Speaker 1: So what you said there about um, you you will
Speaker 1: spend if you do get on off track, it will
Speaker 1: be for less time. And the other thing I'll say
Speaker 1: that we should acknowledge and uplift ourselves and think of
Speaker 1: the progress we've made, even when we do fall off balance.
Speaker 1: It's like if we've gone through at least some period
Speaker 1: of time where we've learned how to exercise, where we've
Speaker 1: learned how to cook a healthy meal, where we've learned
Speaker 1: how to meditate, that is a tool that stays with
Speaker 1: us forever. So sometimes it's just initially getting into these
Speaker 1: things can be really really hard. But then remember that
Speaker 1: these are tools that will benefit you, and you will
Speaker 1: have access to these for the rest of your life,
Speaker 1: and that returning to is going to become easier and
Speaker 1: easier every single time. So that's what I really encourage
Speaker 1: folks to think about. That's such a powerful perspective. This
Speaker 1: gets back to what we talked about earlier about noticing
Speaker 1: what is right about you versus what's always wrong about you.
Speaker 1: The perspective you just gave is an encouraging one, the
Speaker 1: one that people often take those the opposite of that,
Speaker 1: which is I keep failing, therefore I must not be
Speaker 1: able to do it, versus I've been learning and I
Speaker 1: can reapply that. I think that's such a better way
Speaker 1: to look at it. We are over time and I
Speaker 1: need to wrap us up. We're going to continue in
Speaker 1: the post show conversation for a few minutes because I
Speaker 1: have lots of other things i'd like to talk to
Speaker 1: you about. One is I've got to talk to you
Speaker 1: about your family winter count ritual, which is amazing, and
Speaker 1: then I think we will also talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about movement. So listeners, you can get access to post
Speaker 1: show conversations like this one ad free episodes, teaching song
Speaker 1: and a poem episode I do by going to one
Speaker 1: you feed dot net slash join Thosh and Chelsea. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. This has been a real pleasure. I've
Speaker 1: enjoyed talking with you. Thank you so much. It's been
Speaker 1: awesome to be here, and we're just so grateful. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you again for your interest in our book and
Speaker 1: thank you for choosing to feature us here in your podcast.
Speaker 1: And you hope all the listeners find something good in
Speaker 1: our book. It comes out October and pre orders are
Speaker 1: available as well right now on HarperCollins Publishing, So we
Speaker 1: hope that there's something in there for everyone and that
Speaker 1: they get something good out of it. So thanks again
Speaker 1: for spotlighting us there on your show. Here, You're very welcome,
Speaker 1: and we'll have links in the show notes where people
Speaker 1: can get access to that If what you just heard
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