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Speaker 1: God. I hope I don't burn down the studio too. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to stuff Mom never told you. I'm Annie

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Speaker 1: Reese and I am joined today with a guest co host,

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Speaker 1: Julie Dugett Dougo. I'll take that. Julie Dougo, that's what

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Speaker 1: I call her, sometimes known as Julie Douglas. Yes, sometimes

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Speaker 1: known as Julie Mom Douglas. Yes. And that is important

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Speaker 1: to our topic today, which you pitched to me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I had read this article by Claudia Day in Paris

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Speaker 1: Match and the name of the article is Mothers as

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Speaker 1: Makers of Death. It's a great at Yeah. I was

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Speaker 1: doing a death metal voice, um, and he was really

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Speaker 1: intriguing because, you know, I think there's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of discussion about the perception of mothers, but it put

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Speaker 1: it into a new light, or rather, she articulated it

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Speaker 1: in a way that hadn't really heard before. And she

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Speaker 1: talked about the complexity of motherhood. And it may seem

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Speaker 1: to people who are not mothers out there, or who

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Speaker 1: are you know, non binary, who don't subscribe to this

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Speaker 1: sort of femininity or associated femininity, that it might not

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Speaker 1: have something to do with them, But in fact, this

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Speaker 1: lens on motherhood has some really far reaching implications for

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Speaker 1: society as a whole, and that's why I thought was

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Speaker 1: a good thing to pitch to you. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: mean when I heard the title, I was immediately in.

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Speaker 1: But then when you explained explained kind of what that

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Speaker 1: meant and the conversation that you want to have of

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Speaker 1: course immediately of horror movies, which we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about a little bit, but it has been on the

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Speaker 1: public's mind. I think wrestling with this idea of the

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Speaker 1: perceptions around motherhood and just the things that ripple out

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Speaker 1: from that. And I am not a mother, so I'm

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Speaker 1: very glad to have you here. Otherwise it would be

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Speaker 1: a very short episode, I think. Um, but I do

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Speaker 1: because I'm someone that loves in this society. I do

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Speaker 1: have a lot of I have internalized a lot of

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Speaker 1: these perceptions. And I think that motherhood is one of

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Speaker 1: the most monolithic, romanticized, sanitized things in existence. Baby just

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Speaker 1: and that we we we don't even think about it.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing. We just sort of accept that story

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Speaker 1: that we've been told. The example I kept running into

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Speaker 1: was June cleverer um Old June Old June from is

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Speaker 1: leave with the beaver, right, yeah, okay, I'll see you

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Speaker 1: if For those that don't know, I mean, I've never

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Speaker 1: seen leave it to beaver, but I know her. I

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Speaker 1: know she is. She's got the dinner ready for you.

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Speaker 1: She's perfect. Oh Charles, I have your dinner ready and

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Speaker 1: your slippers that oh beaver, now behave I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't know did you just put that that voice in there,

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Speaker 1: because I wouldn't know. I've never seen it, so you

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Speaker 1: could lie to me right now. I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: seen clips, but I don't really honestly know that the

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Speaker 1: character's names, but I do believe the gist of it

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Speaker 1: is this idea of of this um sort of prototypical

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Speaker 1: female mother who is one dimensional. Yeah, and thinking about

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Speaker 1: it now with my my adult brain, it's very kind

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Speaker 1: of wish fulfillment, I think for what a man would want,

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Speaker 1: perhaps slippers, slippers and food ready when he gets home.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Yes, But we erased when we we create

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Speaker 1: those characters, and when we say that motherhood is this

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Speaker 1: one monolithic thing, we erased so many, all of the

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Speaker 1: shades of it and the nuances of it and the

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Speaker 1: complexities of it. Yeah, totally and It's interesting because I

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Speaker 1: I feel like when my first daughter was born nine

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Speaker 1: years ago that I had a pretty full sense of

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Speaker 1: what I thought I was getting into. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: remember just how completely gutted I felt after she was born,

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Speaker 1: because I had that whole flood of love, which is intense,

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Speaker 1: but along with that, I had this sense of dread

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Speaker 1: because I suddenly understood, experienced rather that I had made

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Speaker 1: something that time would destroy. And it was I just

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Speaker 1: felt thunderstruck, you know, and shocked, and you know, saying

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Speaker 1: that you're like, of course dull, right, But I think

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Speaker 1: that is again the experience as opposed to the knowing

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Speaker 1: of the thing, and and right then I understood that

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Speaker 1: what I was getting into in motherhood was far more

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Speaker 1: complex than any of the what to expect when you

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Speaker 1: were expecting books had ever put forth. Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: think we ever hear about that aspect of it, because

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Speaker 1: it is the miracle of life. You don't hear, well

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Speaker 1: what happens after that miracle of life? We just really

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Speaker 1: painted in these these bright colors. Um. Yeah, And you

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Speaker 1: say miracle of life, and it makes me think of

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Speaker 1: the Virgin Mary, you know, because I had never really

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Speaker 1: given the virgin Mary A lot of thought, i'll tell

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Speaker 1: you until this episode. And then when I began to

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Speaker 1: look into it, I was like, oh, this is this

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Speaker 1: idea that here is here's again this sort of prototypical

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Speaker 1: mother figure who is one dimensional in her portrayal. And

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Speaker 1: yet she was the vessel for, you know, of Jesus

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Speaker 1: and her part and the whole thing had just been

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Speaker 1: conflated to again vessel. She wasn't the agent who actually

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Speaker 1: was responsible for, you know, becoming um pregnant, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't any sort of indication of like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is a sort of a complex thing you're entering into

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Speaker 1: Mary um Jesus after all. In no way is it

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Speaker 1: ever posited that Mary had again any agency or any power,

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Speaker 1: or that she actually ultimately led to Jesus's demise just

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Speaker 1: by virtue of bringing Jesus into the world. Right. But

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Speaker 1: I do think that these sort of stories are important

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Speaker 1: because I think that they inform us subconsciously about what

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Speaker 1: we think a mother should be or is. And I

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Speaker 1: remember this sense of this sort of one dimensionality happening

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Speaker 1: to me when my daughter Sadie was born, and the

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Speaker 1: moment after she was born, I was referred to in

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Speaker 1: the hospital as mom. It was sort of this first

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Speaker 1: feeling of like, oh, you've lost your identity and now

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Speaker 1: you are a mother. And I can't think of any

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Speaker 1: other instance in a hospital where a person is addressed

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Speaker 1: as patient or it's such like a categorical way, And

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Speaker 1: that was that was my first inkling that, even though

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Speaker 1: I felt the complexity of motherhood and just being a human,

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Speaker 1: that it was being marginalized in such a distinct way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really glad you brought that up, because as

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Speaker 1: someone who is not a mother, I've never thought too

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Speaker 1: much about it. But we have spoken a lot on

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Speaker 1: this show about the importance of names and identity for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, and I am someone who knew

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Speaker 1: like I us, I never consider changing my name never,

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Speaker 1: So it's it's something I haven't given a lot of

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Speaker 1: thought too, because I've never had to. I've never considered it.

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Speaker 1: But just losing that and being like, oh, now you're

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Speaker 1: now your mom? Oh right, right? You mean like if

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Speaker 1: you were to take another person's name, and then on

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Speaker 1: top of that you feel like further marginalized. I mean,

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Speaker 1: not that you're marginalized. Who takes someone else's name? Bet

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, your identity is, as

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Speaker 1: you say, the importance of naming, and your identity is

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Speaker 1: tied to that. Yeah. And um, as we are about

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Speaker 1: to move into our our horror movie section. Um, that

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Speaker 1: reminds me of one of my favorite Armor movies, The Ring,

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Speaker 1: where it's so strange in the movie that it's a

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Speaker 1: relationship between the mother and her son Aidan, and Aiden

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Speaker 1: only calls his mother Rachel by her name, by her

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Speaker 1: first name, and they never say why. It is a

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Speaker 1: plot point in the second one. That's how she realizes

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Speaker 1: he's possessed when he's mom. But it's strange and they

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Speaker 1: never address it. And I remember thinking, huh, I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine calling my mom by her name Susan, but that's

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Speaker 1: her name if not mom, you know when you need

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Speaker 1: to get her attention sometimes, right Yeah. Um, Well, to

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Speaker 1: kind of set you up for that, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: read this bit from the article by Claudia Day when

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Speaker 1: she talks about this complexity of motherhood. Um. She says

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Speaker 1: birth is not nearly that which divides women from themselves,

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Speaker 1: so that a woman's understanding of what it is to

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Speaker 1: exist is profoundly changed. Noted, she says, another person has

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Speaker 1: existed in her and after their birth, they live within

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Speaker 1: the jurisdiction of her consciousness. When she is with them,

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Speaker 1: she is not herself. When she is without them, she

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Speaker 1: is not herself. And I would eat again that this

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Speaker 1: kind of divided consciousness isn't relegated to biological children. It's

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Speaker 1: really an extent mention of our mind's eye to any

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Speaker 1: being that we care for and we wish to survive,

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Speaker 1: right um And I was thinking of of things like

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Speaker 1: mother Earth, mother Nature, mothership, these things that sustain as

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Speaker 1: that we depend on, but can be our death as well,

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Speaker 1: can be very terrifying. If you're at the mercy of

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Speaker 1: mother Nature, that's scary, which we are. It's a frightening

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Speaker 1: situation to be in. Um. And it's one of those

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Speaker 1: things that we I think we only look at the

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Speaker 1: one side of it. But putting it in terms of

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Speaker 1: like mother Nature and mother mother Earth was actually really

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Speaker 1: helpful for me. Wasn't because of this sense of randomness

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Speaker 1: and force or power power power to be both the

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Speaker 1: creator and the destroyer. I think, because if you're thinking

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Speaker 1: of of Mother Earth, then it's something that you depend on,

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Speaker 1: that you need, that sustained you. But it is kind

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Speaker 1: of a dangerous situation to be in, which makes it's

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Speaker 1: such fertile territory for the horror movie genre. It does,

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Speaker 1: and right now, horror movies are in love with telling

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Speaker 1: stories about mothers and around motherhood. It's been around for

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Speaker 1: a long time that the genre of maternal horror, it's

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Speaker 1: its own genre. But right now, just just off the

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Speaker 1: top of my head, Hereditary is a very focused on motherhood.

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Speaker 1: The Baba Duck Mother of course, which I don't know

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Speaker 1: if i'd call it a horror movie, but it's weird

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Speaker 1: and creepy. Stranger things on Netflix in a Quiet Place

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Speaker 1: came up when I was reading about this a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because we're we're in the middle of reimagining that genre

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Speaker 1: because for a while it was very much not complex

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Speaker 1: and nu one um. And one thing that's interesting about

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Speaker 1: the genre maternal horror and in general horror, it's written

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Speaker 1: by men. So if we look at this genre for

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Speaker 1: a long time, it did pretty and accurately represent this

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Speaker 1: mother child dynamic. And one of the interesting things about

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Speaker 1: it this genre is that it's the mother we're afraid of,

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Speaker 1: usually a mother willing to do anything for her child.

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Speaker 1: This category includes things like Rosner's Baby, The Extracist Friday,

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Speaker 1: The thirty UM, and Scream Too, even which listeners no,

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Speaker 1: I apparently could talk about scream To all of the time.

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Speaker 1: Really have a Scream To side podcast. I feel like

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Speaker 1: you could teach a course on it. I could. I

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Speaker 1: really think I could give a lecture. I would take it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it would be really interesting. But all of those are

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Speaker 1: sort of part of this tradition of presenting seriously flawed

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Speaker 1: mothers and horror movies, UM and and it kind of

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Speaker 1: branches off into this other subset of mothers where the

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Speaker 1: flaw there's some flaw that the mother has and it

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Speaker 1: sets off the whole chain of terrifying events like in Scream,

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Speaker 1: where UM, as a viewer, you're supposed to be really

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Speaker 1: wary of Sydney, the main character of her mother, and

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Speaker 1: her mother's infidelity, and that was the reasoning the serial

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Speaker 1: killer gave for his whole murder spree, which I gotta

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Speaker 1: that's flimsy, right, yeah, oh yeah, Billy loomis um and

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Speaker 1: then his mom comes back in the second one. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I need to stop talking about Scream. Yeah, there's Marge's

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Speaker 1: alcoholism from Nightmare on Elm Street Wendy's passive nervousness, and

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Speaker 1: I would argue foolishness in the portrayal in The Shining Um.

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Speaker 1: Just these bad mother's that set off again blaming women

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Speaker 1: set off this whatever horror movie monster his chain of events,

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Speaker 1: because it usually isn't he, And so don't you kind

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Speaker 1: of feel like it's a moral code written in these

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Speaker 1: movies by men about you know, here, here are the consequences.

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Speaker 1: If you're going to be a bad mother, You're you're

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Speaker 1: going to be responsible for some you know, terrible things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a writer saying, mom, I could have become a

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Speaker 1: serial killer. It's some weird message to their own moms.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. That's a that's a new theory I

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Speaker 1: have off the top of my head. Another aspect that

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Speaker 1: is particularly horrifying in horror movies is single motherhood. The

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Speaker 1: implication that a woman might not need a man is

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Speaker 1: downright scary to some folks, and in our patriarchal society,

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Speaker 1: any single mothers are viewed as a threat to masculine authority,

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Speaker 1: and we see it in horror movies all of the

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Speaker 1: time and another other media too. But the clingy mama's boy,

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Speaker 1: who's usually a feminine and unable to function in the

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Speaker 1: world without his mother. There's an undercurrent of Oedipus Rex

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Speaker 1: usually there too, and this is seen as a failure

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Speaker 1: on the mother's part. It is usually a son in

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Speaker 1: this equation too, because without a father to provide a

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Speaker 1: role model, society has an anxiety that the boy will

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Speaker 1: not be as masculine and that he won't reject and

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Speaker 1: separate himself from his mother's femininity. And this is a

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Speaker 1: danger to the patriarchal structure of our society. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: but this is not just like a you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of idea or like a paper that was written on this, right,

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Speaker 1: Like we we hear and see this in political rhetoric. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's the breakdown of the family unit. Yeah, yeah, completely,

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Speaker 1: um and and we were kind of discussing to how

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Speaker 1: if it's a single father, it's seen as much more

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Speaker 1: a positive like look what he's doing an applause, applause,

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Speaker 1: scream again, it's there, It's all there. Um, it's so true.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about in social media. There was a guy

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Speaker 1: who um mcgiver styles one does as a parent, changed

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Speaker 1: a diaper in a public restroom without a changing pad,

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Speaker 1: and this can be very like a tenuous thing. You

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Speaker 1: can end up with lots of excrement on you. So um,

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Speaker 1: he was celebrated and I was like, hey, you gotta

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Speaker 1: be kidding me. Man. I just get the stink eye

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Speaker 1: whenever I see that from people, because they're like, you

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Speaker 1: took so long in the restroom with with that damn

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Speaker 1: kid of yours, you know, right, because it's expected of

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Speaker 1: women and the mother typically and like, oh surprised, look

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Speaker 1: at this of the man. Yeah. Um. Horror movies, if

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Speaker 1: we go back to them, they have traditionally been divided

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Speaker 1: up into two categories. So you have the abusive mother

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Speaker 1: who creates the monster or killer or what have you

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Speaker 1: via her bad parenting and all of these like end quotes,

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Speaker 1: heavy quotes like Friday, Psycho, Carrie, um. And then you

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Speaker 1: have the other path that these horror movies to petly

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Speaker 1: go down is the victim, who is usually helpless to

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Speaker 1: save herself and maybe her child, like the Extorcist, Rosemary's Baby,

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Speaker 1: the Olmen, the Shining so many examples I could go on, Um,

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Speaker 1: but as you had said, this is becoming a more

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Speaker 1: complex portrayal. It is and more current horror mothers are

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Speaker 1: they have more nuance, and the Babba Duck is a

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Speaker 1: great example. It's it's on Netflix. Should you want to

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Speaker 1: watch after this. Amelia, the main character, is neither the

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Speaker 1: screaming victim or the abuser. She loves her son and

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Speaker 1: she resents him. She shows fury at the sacrifice motherhood

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Speaker 1: has demanded of her. And this is kind of a

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Speaker 1: radical thing to admit that as a mother, that you

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Speaker 1: don't love motherhood. You always hear like it's so great,

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Speaker 1: it's one of the most beautiful experiences. You're gonna love it.

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Speaker 1: And in this movie her to me, seeing that was

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Speaker 1: new and completely radical and just it made sense though, like,

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Speaker 1: of course her child was annoying, and I'm saying, like

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Speaker 1: that is objective. He is annoying, and he's like screaming

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Speaker 1: at her, pulling her hair and shooting her with this crossbow.

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Speaker 1: And you can understand she she is both. She still

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Speaker 1: loves him and it's clear that she loves him, but

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Speaker 1: he wears her down as well. But that's kind of

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Speaker 1: going back to that bi ercated consciousness, right, this idea

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Speaker 1: that you can't be alone in yourself ever, even when

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Speaker 1: you're not with your child there within the realm of

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Speaker 1: your consciousness, and even with your with your child, you

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Speaker 1: you're still like not yourself and and suddenly like your

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Speaker 1: hair is being pulled and your child is trying to

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Speaker 1: name you yeah. Um. And there's she's also a single mother,

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Speaker 1: and there's a whole complication of the story that her

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Speaker 1: husband died the day her son was born. But so

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Speaker 1: you also get to see that play out, and you

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Speaker 1: get to see the other mothers kind of looked down

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Speaker 1: on her. Literally in one scene, it's shot in such

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Speaker 1: a way that the camera all of the other mothers

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Speaker 1: are standing and the cameras from their po ving it's

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Speaker 1: looking down at Amelia and judging her her parenting skills

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Speaker 1: and blaming her for her son's bad behavior. She lives

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Speaker 1: in a very isolated home, and you just get get

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Speaker 1: this that her whole world is dominated by her son

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Speaker 1: and the Bobba took the The monster in this movie

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Speaker 1: very much represents like her her depression and it's it's

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Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil the ending, but I would

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Speaker 1: highly recommend watching it if anyone's interested in our movies

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Speaker 1: about motherhood. This is this is a good one. Well,

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Speaker 1: it strikes a nerve, right, because it's it's saying like

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Speaker 1: motherhood can be isolating. Yeah, it's supporting what we already

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Speaker 1: know from a lot of studies about what happens when

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Speaker 1: in a headin norm couple they become parents, a man

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Speaker 1: and a woman. That a lot of the onus, the

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Speaker 1: responsibility is on the woman, and how society is supporting that. Yeah, yeah, completely.

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Speaker 1: And another example that I'm in love with her Hereditary.

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Speaker 1: I will disclaimer Hereditary is very good. It is emotionally brutal.

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Speaker 1: It's tough. People have walked out of the theater. This

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Speaker 1: movie came out like last year. Okay, so tell me,

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Speaker 1: tell me what about motherhood? Yeah, like why do why do?

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Speaker 1: I sort of like tremble on the inside when you

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Speaker 1: start to talk talk about this very um it. It

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Speaker 1: messes with both of those tropes of the victim and

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Speaker 1: the abuser because the main character Annie, she is both,

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Speaker 1: and she she's seen as the villain or she sees

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Speaker 1: herself as the villain for failing her family, and it's

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Speaker 1: a The film is a really uncomfortable look at the

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Speaker 1: damage mothers can inflict on their children with at the

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Speaker 1: same time without being judgmental for it um. And she's

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Speaker 1: just in part because of the great performance by Tony

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Speaker 1: Klett and the main role, you understand her like even

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Speaker 1: if sometimes there's one scene where the look on her

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Speaker 1: face of resentment and anger towards her own son is

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Speaker 1: stunning and I think about that all the time, just

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Speaker 1: the hatred. But you again, you can she's a human being.

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Speaker 1: She's a well thought out character and you can see

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Speaker 1: where these feelings are coming from because it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a study on grief and destructive how how destructive grief

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Speaker 1: can be? UM, And I thought it was very effective.

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Speaker 1: And there's one point in the movie where she's at

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Speaker 1: a grief like counseling group, almost like a a but

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Speaker 1: for grief, and she she starts talking about why she's there,

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Speaker 1: and it's sort of on ravels into something else, and

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Speaker 1: at the end she says, I realized I am to blame,

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Speaker 1: or not that I am to blame, but I am blamed.

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Speaker 1: And I remember leaving and that line stuck with me

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Speaker 1: for a while because I wasn't quite sure what it

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Speaker 1: en Um, what do you think it means? I think

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Speaker 1: it means that she well, there there's two levels of

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Speaker 1: what it means because there is like a demonic thy

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Speaker 1: spoiler alert, but on the level of grief and ah family,

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Speaker 1: which I think it's more about. UM. I think it

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Speaker 1: means she feels that she has failed and that she's

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Speaker 1: set up to fail, that she cannot succeed in all

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Speaker 1: of these ways. And um. She later in the movie,

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Speaker 1: she's talking about how she made this mistake and it

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Speaker 1: was a pretty serious mistake with her children, and how

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Speaker 1: they will never forgive her for it, Like she could

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Speaker 1: do anything and they'll never forgive her. And she has

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Speaker 1: frustration and anger about that because to her, she's like,

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Speaker 1: I it was an accident, I didn't mean it, but

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Speaker 1: they're never gonna forgive me for it. So I think

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Speaker 1: it's a good example of how we set mother's up

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Speaker 1: to fail and how she felt that. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: that's the sense of the stakes, right, if they're that

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Speaker 1: high when when you're a mother, um, and in some

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Speaker 1: ways just you're when you're a caregiver at all in society. UM,

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Speaker 1: this idea that you're being judged harshly and that you

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Speaker 1: won't be able to ever really rise to these impossible

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Speaker 1: standards because we're human and like, so that's a lot

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Speaker 1: of this discussion this idea that we're compartmentalizing our humanness

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Speaker 1: into this sort of binary like a or b um,

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Speaker 1: you know, like Madonna whore or you know, good mom,

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Speaker 1: bad mom. Yeah. Yeah, just the idea that you have

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Speaker 1: to be perfect all of the time and that your

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Speaker 1: relationship with your children is perfect all of the time.

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Speaker 1: It's not realistic, and I can we see it all

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Speaker 1: the time, and I can totally understand that feeling of

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Speaker 1: that you're not succeeding with these goals that you think

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Speaker 1: that society has told you are the goals. And apparently

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Speaker 1: horror horror, it's it's tapped into that. Well, it's a

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Speaker 1: perfect truth for horror movies, right, Like it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of I think that's why it strikes a nerve to

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Speaker 1: even talk about it in this way, because it feels

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Speaker 1: taboo to even say like, oh, a mother could feel

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Speaker 1: negative about her children or um or resentful. And and

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Speaker 1: to be clear, like this is not a conversation of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: motherhood is hard, you know, it's it's that's not it.

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Speaker 1: It's it's saying like, let's really look at um at

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Speaker 1: this issue and then how it's portrayed in society and

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Speaker 1: with nuance. And I do want to bring up one

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Speaker 1: example of of like a really cool this is how

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Speaker 1: it's changing is if you look at the original Carry

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Speaker 1: versus the new Carry by the Stephen King movie Stephen

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Speaker 1: King movie book. I don't know, but yes, Carrie shows

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Speaker 1: and the first one, the original one, the mother is

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Speaker 1: very one dimensional, very abusive scene as the villain when

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Speaker 1: she's a single mom too right, Yeah, and when Carrie

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Speaker 1: kills her at the end spoilers I guess, um maybe

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Speaker 1: not at this point, Yeah, I feel like the statue

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Speaker 1: of limitations is past. Um. That is, she is vanquishing

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Speaker 1: the monster. The monster is not Carry. The monster is

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Speaker 1: the mother in that movie, but in the new one, um,

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Speaker 1: you have, I would argue much more sympathy for the

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Speaker 1: mother because she does show that love. She's abusive, but

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Speaker 1: there she has like another layer to her. And it's

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Speaker 1: when Carrie kills her and the new one that it's

404
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: much more out of sadness and you have you can

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Speaker 1: at least relate to this is a human being and

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Speaker 1: not like a straight up one dimensional monster. Well, she

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Speaker 1: hasn't been objectified to the point where the audience is

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Speaker 1: going yeah, yeah, yeah, which I think is a more

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Speaker 1: powerful film. Um. And then I did want to bring

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Speaker 1: up because I watched this a couple of nights ago Lyle,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of a re remake. It's not a remake.

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Speaker 1: It's like Rosemary's Baby reimagined with a lesbian couple. And

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Speaker 1: I saw it described in a lot of places as

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Speaker 1: a horror movie version of Cheryl Sandberg's book Leaning, which

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Speaker 1: right there, I mean, you have me, Yeah, that's all.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what movie is this? Um? One of

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Speaker 1: the couple, she's pregnant and they already have a daughter

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Speaker 1: named Lyle Um and the baby dies in an accident,

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Speaker 1: and the pregnant one starts to suspect that it wasn't

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Speaker 1: an accident, and you know, it's a hard movie, sou

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Speaker 1: and the movie really plays on this fear women have

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Speaker 1: around family and ambition, and that we have as a

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Speaker 1: society around ambitious women. Um, who who would dare choose

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Speaker 1: career of her family? And the movie is all the

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Speaker 1: more shocking because as opposed to Rosemary's Baby, it's a

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00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: woman making a deal with the devil for success the

427
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: family instead of guy and Rosemary's Baby. UM. I think

428
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: that's why it caused a lot of conversation. Oh, why

429
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: is this so much more different seeing a woman in

430
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: this role? Yeah, And I think that we'll get to

431
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: this is I definitely think that ties to this idea

432
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: of the perceptions are the costs of becoming a parent,

433
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: um in this society. So let me just say it again. Um,

434
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: that has real implications, right, And how that works out

435
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: in the real world when you become a parent, and

436
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: how you are sort of you know, you've heard the

437
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: mommy tax before, um, And how in the workplace you're

438
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: seeing differently. Um. But before we get to that, yes,

439
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: let's talk about lost, Children of Men, Let's talk about loss.

440
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: We're gonna, We're gonna go though, We're out lost when

441
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: which is off the rails? Now, these are other pop

442
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: culture examples of seeing protecting the pregnant woman at all

443
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: costs lost. The whole first season was kind of set

444
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: up on that, and Children of Men, the old movie

445
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: and book about that, and there are so many examples

446
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: of what women and especially women need to be afraid

447
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: of when it comes to parenting and children. And the

448
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: movie The Others is a great example of this to

449
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: the extreme because Nicole Kidman's character is obsessed of the

450
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: protective of her children. She never lets them leave the house,

451
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: she keeps all the blinds closed because they have allergy

452
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: to light, but still um and she ends up being

453
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: the threat to her children and her over zealousness to

454
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: protect them, which is basically what people are telling us

455
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: with the helicopter mom. Right, that's true. It's not just

456
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: your role as mother, but role as partner in the

457
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: sort of heteronorm arrangement where you know you've got to

458
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: be the help meet. Is that? That's how it said,

459
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: I believe the perfect sort of spouse to make sure

460
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: that the structure is in place where you are supporting

461
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: the male. Yeah. And this came up in a discussion

462
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: around Breaking Back, of course, of course we're talking about

463
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: all kinds of things here, and the depiction and reaction

464
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: to Skylar from Breaking Bad versus I don't know her name,

465
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: but the plea Wendy Wendy from Ozark with they essentially

466
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: similar plat lines, and they these two female characters were

467
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: essentially in the same role. Right, So their husbands are

468
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: sort of dabbling in um and criminal activities, and one spouse, Skylar,

469
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: it was like, hey, maybe not cook meth. I think

470
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: that's terrible idea, pretner family and danger, and she's seen

471
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: as like, you know, sort of like this Fishmonger's wife

472
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: on the doc screaming at him all the time, just

473
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: what Walt b Walt right? And then you have Wendy

474
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: who is supporting Marty in his endeavors laundering money. And

475
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: it's an entirely different reaction from audiences. And yet Skylar

476
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: is the one who has the moral compass. And I

477
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: bet people are getting marrid just hearing her name. People

478
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: did not like her, and I remember watching that show

479
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: and I used to have this test where I would

480
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: kind of I would I would maybe make a judgment

481
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: about your character where I would ask, like, when did

482
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: Walt lose you? When when were you turning from Oh,

483
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: he is the hero of this story too. He is

484
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: the villain of this story. And if you if some

485
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: people have said, like season four, but I remember being

486
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: shocked by how vitriolic the response was to Skyler. And

487
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: I mean, she's not we're not saying she's great, but

488
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: she's flawed. Yeah, yeah, I mean they both were. And

489
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: I would argue that she was trying to protect her

490
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: family too. She was just a woman doing it trying

491
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: to do her own, her own way. Yeah, and I

492
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: think that there was there was so much empathy from

493
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: the audience for Walt. I mean, it was his story, right,

494
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 1: and and she became the anti hero or you know,

495
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: the person that they could place all the blame on

496
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: for Walt not finally getting what Walt wanted. Right. It's

497
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: a lot of money in respect and money and respect,

498
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: and this society is huge, right if you're a man,

499
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: can't you see that? You know? I think so? I

500
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: think I think I've seen some examples of that. Yeah.

501
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: And another aspect of this is people of color have

502
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: traditionally been left out of this space and entertainment, and

503
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: when they are included, the tropes are amplified or they

504
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: have their own specific tropes. In many cases, Um, for

505
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: a long time, the black mother especially has been portrayed

506
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: as the welfare mother or the like angry, violent, sassy

507
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: mother Tyler Perry's media. That's an extreme example. But um

508
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: that that dynamic, that tripe we see play out a

509
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: lot too. Yeah. And although I will say that, um,

510
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: Cookie Line and from Empire is a great example of

511
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: an unapologetic, flawed woman who is both committed to her family,

512
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: but also very ambitious, and so I think that's you know,

513
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if neat is the word, but that's

514
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: kind of cool to see. It's real neato. Slippers are

515
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: right over here, darling. People wear a lot of slippers

516
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: back then. I feel like if in the nineteen fifties,

517
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: I always had like like the guy would get this

518
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: is my idea. The guy would get home for my

519
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: long day's work and he would sit in his club

520
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: chair smoke pipe, and then his slippers were waiting for him,

521
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: so he could take his lace up shoes off and

522
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: then put his big, stinky feet into the comfortable slippers.

523
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: I mean that sounds nice. The turkey was on the table. Yes,

524
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, Okay, you, being the

525
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: sensitive gentle soul that you are um growing up with

526
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: an appetite for horror movies, how did this affect you?

527
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: Like all of these narratives, I apparently I very much

528
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: took those in and internalized them. And I've shared on

529
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: the show before. When I was fourteen, I went to

530
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: I had a kind of college disappointment, and he told

531
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: me I was pregnant and I wasn't, but he very

532
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: adamantly said you are pregnant, and he called my dad

533
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: to come pick me up. And I just remember the

534
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: feeling of horror I had, of like pure terror, and

535
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: I kept thinking, Oh, I wonder if this is how

536
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: my mom felt when she found out she was pregnant.

537
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's that, if that is

538
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: what set this off. But when I was seventeen, I

539
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: decided to do Nana Ramo for the first time, which

540
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: is coming up National Novel Writing Month, and that's where

541
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: you write a book in one month. Uh, pretty self expanatory.

542
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: And I had no idea. I was just I gotta

543
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: start writing because I kind of decided maybe a weekend

544
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: to do it. And the story that I wrote was

545
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 1: about a character. It's kind of like Cam's Tale meets

546
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: Children of men Um. Basically, you live in this world

547
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: where it's very difficult to get pregnant, and if you do,

548
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: then you don't. There's no guarantee you'll keep your child

549
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: um because you have to go through the board of

550
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: better parenting. Uh. And the main character, she gets pregnant

551
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 1: against the law because there's certain circumstance. Anyway, it's confusing,

552
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: but she is. The book is her on the run

553
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: and like trying to protect her child and constantly feeling

554
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: like she's failing, like she can't. She feels like she

555
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: is more his sister, that she doesn't deserve this title

556
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: of mom, and that he doesn't realize that she's not

557
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: a good mom um, that he's she's not living up

558
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: to it. And it isn't until the end when she

559
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: has this revelation when she finally feels like she is

560
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: a mother. And I've never been a mother, and I

561
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: that story is the one that I wrote not thinking

562
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: about it, that that's what happened. And and you are

563
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: seventeen when you're with us, Yes, do you still feel

564
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: this this way? This sort of like sort of accidential terror?

565
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,479
Speaker 1: I think I do, um, And I've gone back and

566
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: kind of rewritten it and reshaped it, and I toyed

567
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: with the idea of trying to get it published, and

568
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: I'm still toying with that idea. But I wanted to

569
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: share it with someone who's actually been a mother. So

570
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: I went to my own mom and asked her to

571
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: read it. And just when she finished, I said, did

572
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 1: that make sense? Was I touching? Is that a real

573
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: thing that you experienced? And she said, yes, Um so

574
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: I yeah, I don't know. I guess it is a

575
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: really powerful narrative that we absorb and it is frightening. Um.

576
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 1: I just love that you and your mom have that

577
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: kind of relationship and had that relationship when you were

578
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: in that age that you guys could talk about that. Yeah.

579
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: I think that my mom would have would have just

580
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: shut down if if, if she had read something like that. Yeah,

581
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: and she's great, I love you, you you know what I mean,

582
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: you know, you know what I mean. And then I

583
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: wrote it ended up. I wrote three of them. That's

584
00:38:54,200 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: a trilogy. And in the second one, she it ends

585
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: with her child getting abducted and she wakes up and

586
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: she has this moment of fear like I don't know

587
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: who I will be without without him if I can

588
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: never find him again, I don't know who I am

589
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: without him. Um, which is just it's interesting that apparently

590
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: that is suck into my my brain. Well, what I

591
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: think is interesting about that too, is that you are

592
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: at an age where you probably shouldn't have been able

593
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: to take that perspective for a number of reasons. Um,

594
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: but you tapped into again this idea of a split

595
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: consciousness that immediately happens when when you are taking care

596
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: of a life. Yeah. Yeah, and I, um, it's to

597
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: this day. I look back at that moment of like,

598
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, the blank screen, what am I going to write?

599
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: And that's what poured out, and it still surprises me.

600
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I had never thought about it before,

601
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: or at least not like consciously thought of this story. Um.

602
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: And I was very active and raising my brother, and

603
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: I mean that's in no way the same, but I

604
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: did have this constant concern about him, like all the time,

605
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: where is the easy Okay? What was he doing with

606
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: the kids? Being me into him? Oh? No, it was

607
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: really it was really exhausting. Um, maybe that was part

608
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: of it. I thank you. I think you definitely picked

609
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: up on it. Um. But I think that's important, like

610
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: that this is this sort of conversation is really important

611
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: because again it's confronting the complexity of what it is

612
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: to take on this role in society and uh, something

613
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: that we are going to explore right after this ad

614
00:40:52,239 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: break and we're back, Thank you sponsor, and we are

615
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: going to turn our discussion now to Ma Calli or

616
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: the Dark Mother, the candle for whom the God is

617
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: for whom the candle burns in our studio currently, that's right,

618
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: we have a candle lit. Nothing has has burned down

619
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: so far, but it is it's it's an attempt to

620
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: try to tap into Kalima. Who is this goddess of creation, preservation, destruction. Yes,

621
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,479
Speaker 1: she is all three. She she's known as the mother

622
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: kind of essentially, and while she is all of those things,

623
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: she is most known as the destroyer. One of the

624
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: best known stories about her describes how she devoured the

625
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 1: entrails of her dead consort Shiva and her yoni, which

626
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: is a k volva or woo so john is a

627
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: word for but it usually has a spiritual aspect to it.

628
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 1: Um sexually devoured his penis. So we we definitely here

629
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: a lot, at least in the West, we hear a

630
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: lot more about her role as the destroyer. Yeah, and

631
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: we want me to bring her into this conversation, not

632
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 1: so that we could talk about devouring organs um, but

633
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: to talk about, like here here is a narrative, a

634
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 1: goddess Um who really brings all these disparate parts together

635
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: of what it is to be a human and to

636
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: exist on earth, which is to feel pain and suffering

637
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: and love and joy to also have the destructive force

638
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: along with the creative force within you and um and

639
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 1: I think the reason why she gets the destroyer wraps

640
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 1: so much is because she is ferociously depicted. I mean,

641
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: we are talking about wearing a garland of skulls and

642
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: a skirt of dismembered hands. Yeah, that's pretty hardcore. Yeah.

643
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, in one hand she brandishes a

644
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: sword and what's in the other hand severed head. Of

645
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: course she probably used the sword for probably, and then

646
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: she's her eyes are ablaze, her tongue is sort of

647
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: lolling out of her mouth. I mean, this is not

648
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: a gentle depiction of what we would typically call like

649
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: a feminine figure. No, not at all. And that definitely

650
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: played a role, I would say, and you would say,

651
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: into her becoming reduced down, watered down to just the

652
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: destroyer and most Western thought and the creation and preservation

653
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: aspects of her are forgotten. She's paint it as something

654
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: evil and or demonic. The Encyclopedia Britannica did not even

655
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: include her role in the creation. Uh huh, We've got

656
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: our eye on you, Encyclopedia. We're coming for you. She

657
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: is full of love though and all types, and all

658
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: of this love flows out from her to all women

659
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: on earth, her earthly army, and her role as the mothers.

660
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: She was also called the treasure house of compassion, the

661
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: giver of life to the world and the life of

662
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 1: all lives. Men who worshiped Collie are instructed to bow

663
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: to the feet of women and learn from them. Only

664
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: male animals were to be sacrificed in her name, due

665
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: to an ancient belief that they had no role in

666
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: the cycle of generation. M Yeah, those that worshiped Collige

667
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: worship both aspects of her, two sides of the same coin,

668
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 1: life and death, giver and destructor. A worshiper might a

669
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: his goddess, his loving mother and time, who gives him

670
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: birth and loves him in the flesh. She also destroys

671
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: him in the flesh. His image of her is incomplete

672
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: if he does not know her as his terror and devourer.

673
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: That is so badass if you think about it, right, like,

674
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: if you are worshiping, are you you're you're invoking this goddess.

675
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: And to actually say those words and confront your mortality

676
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 1: in that way, it kind of it puts everything into perspectives. Yes,

677
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: absolutely does. Side note. Side note, Collie is also regarded

678
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: as a manifestation of the Virgin Mother and Crone. And

679
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: we see that that kind of three um manifestations echoed

680
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 1: and several other cultures, to the Greeks, the Romans, the Celts,

681
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: the Egyptians, and I love this quote, the hungry Earth

682
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: which devours its own children and fattens on their corpses.

683
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: So like a less disneyfied circle of a life in

684
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: the circs will devour your courses. I don't know why

685
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,439
Speaker 1: Disney didn't go that route. Right. Collie is sometimes called

686
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: the Terrible Mother in India. She is depicted as the feminine,

687
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: as the way creation and life and death and destruction

688
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: are all intertwined, the womb and the tomb at once.

689
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: I wish I could take credit for that, but I

690
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: saw that in several places describing her um, and that

691
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: that depiction was common in thousands of eight ancient religions.

692
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 1: So right, And so that's what I think is interesting, UM,

693
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: is that this is a very old concept in people's

694
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: ability to absorb this information and weave it into the

695
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: cultural narrative without passing out is pretty significant and to

696
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: me um, Collie Mack stands an opposition of virgin Mary

697
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: in a way, and that here is, you know, here's

698
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: sort of not just the opposite of the vision Mary,

699
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: but rather a fuller depiction of what it is to

700
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: be a creator slash destroyer rights. And she also is

701
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: a great example of delegation because her three functions are

702
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: delegated out to Brahma, Vishnu, and Schiva, the gods of creation, preservation,

703
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: and destruction, respectively. And Vishnu is written to have said

704
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: about Collie maternal cause of all change, manifestation, and destruction.

705
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: The whole universe rest upon her, rises out of her

706
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: and melts into her. From her, crystallized the original elements

707
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: and qualities which construct the apparent world. She's both mother

708
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: and grave. The gods themselves are merely constructs out of

709
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: her maternal substance, which is both consciousness and potential joy.

710
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: And in the beginning, in the beginning, in the beginning,

711
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: Collie was an ocean of blood, sort of like the

712
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: primordial soup that all life sprang from. Ocean of blood.

713
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: That's intense uh. In the final of Collie's three stages

714
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: is the nothingness that comes after death after she has

715
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: devoured time quote the generative womb of all the beginning

716
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: and end of beings. So again, this is radical thinking

717
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: for us right now in this modern age because it

718
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: is taking on time and space. Like we're essentially saying

719
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: that Collie was the big bang in a way, right,

720
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: Like she was not just the creative destroyer of beings,

721
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: but that she actually spawned time itself, which is cool. Um.

722
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: And there there's so many good quotes about her as

723
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: she devours all existence, as she choose all things existing

724
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: with her fierce teeth. Therefore, a mass of blood is

725
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: imagined to be the apparel of the Queen of the

726
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 1: gods at the final dissolution. That's that's on my resume,

727
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: is it? Yeah? You should get it on business cards,

728
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: on a pillow. I would love it on a pillow, honestly,

729
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: that would be great, like to include in all of

730
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: like those, you know, the quotes that are being circulated

731
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: around right now, just quotes about Cali, like you know,

732
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: I dig it something about a Yoni. Yeah, I think

733
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: I think our listeners could could work on that for us.

734
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: But it is interesting because we always paint motherhood as

735
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: this nurturing thing. Which it is, and we talk about

736
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: fierce Mama bear, sure, but the connotation is still someone

737
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: protecting her child in this sort of nurturing aspect of it.

738
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: And if we go back to horror movies for a second,

739
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: the newer and more complex depictions we were we were

740
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: talking about are closer to Cali, the life giver and deathbringer,

741
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: capable of creation and destruction. And this is scary, right

742
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: if we always see and here as a society is

743
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 1: in these black and white terms of mothers are stable,

744
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: perfect loving or abuse of monsters? If we show more

745
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: of that gray, it's unsettling because we don't talk about

746
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: it and we don't see it reflected in our media.

747
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 1: Right because again going back to this sort of binary

748
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 1: right bucking white, sun and moon, good and bad um,

749
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 1: you know that it's ignoring this mosaic of the human

750
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: experience and we we should not ignore it, No, we shouldn't. Instead,

751
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: we should just dig a little deeper. And there's nothing

752
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: like digging deep than to go to old Papa Freud.

753
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: That's right, That's what I always say. I'm gonna go

754
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: to old Papa Freud. Yeah, the Madonna Hore complex um,

755
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: it plays into this Yeah, that binary. And it's what

756
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: we're talking about here is how men both fear and

757
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: desire women, which can create a cognitive dissonance that results

758
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: in misogyny, sexism, and sometimes violence. And Sigmund Freud came

759
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: up with a theory of how men deal with this,

760
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: and it involves separating out women, um, the man admires

761
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: and respects into the category of the madonna, and the

762
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: women that the man is attracted to and therefore doesn't respect,

763
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: into the category of the whore. And these are mutually exclusive.

764
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: Love is seen as clean and pure, and lust and

765
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: sex are viewed as dirty and shameful. And you know,

766
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: a lot of what freud um has done has been

767
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,439
Speaker 1: brought into question, but this is one of those things

768
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: that sort of has stuck. People have said, you know, Freud,

769
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 1: we think that he might have been on to something

770
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: here in the way that the binary works in society. Yeah,

771
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 1: and it's been really interesting. We almost went on, well

772
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: I almost did, on a huge tangent about the celebrity

773
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: baby body because they are trying to be both the madonna,

774
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 1: uh and the horror Well not really, they're not trying

775
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:06,320
Speaker 1: to be, but both things that they're trying to combine together.

776
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: And if you throwback to when to me more collided

777
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: these two ideas in her nude photo shoot for Vanity

778
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: Fair while she was pregnant with her second child, and

779
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: that was a huge deal. Some stories insisted on selling

780
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: the magazine in a closed package, and we see it

781
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,479
Speaker 1: on our magazine covers all the time, the celebrity post

782
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: pregnancy body. How quickly can she get rid of that

783
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: that baby I don't know, it's almost a baby bump.

784
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: That's not it some cases, you know, right, yeah, um, yeah,

785
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: it's just this pressure of that we're putting on women

786
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: to lose the baby weight as quickly as possible and

787
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: become attractive to the male gaze again, to get your

788
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: body back, Like that's a frequent thing you'll quote that

789
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: you'll see when saying I want to get my body back.

790
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: It's strange when you think about it. It is strange

791
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: because it doesn't really honor again, the complexity of the

792
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: experience or anything that a person has gone through, and

793
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: instead it's like six weeks to you, what a better

794
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: post mom baby, And it's not. It's not like that's

795
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: going to happen. And then suddenly society is going to

796
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: drop this binary perception they have of you because you're

797
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: now a mother and think that you're Hella sexy. Right.

798
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: And for the social media mentioned in the episode, social

799
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: media comes up all the time. UM, just remind yourselves that, UM,

800
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: celebrities are paid to look a certain way. It's their

801
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: job project a certain image, and it's a one dimensional

802
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: rendering of them that you're getting. And some celebrities, especially

803
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: recently have got real with their struggles with pregnancy, with

804
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 1: losing weight. Um afterwards, if that's something that they wanted

805
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 1: to do. I know Charlie's Theron recently talked about it. UM.

806
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,399
Speaker 1: And I remember I do remember when Tom Cruise called

807
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 1: book Shields out for taking medication for postpartum depression, which

808
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: is another throw back that was a while ago. Case

809
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 1: he's an expert on postpartum depression. I'm sure he is, so.

810
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 1: I mean the bottom line is, UM, it's just bad

811
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: for everyone, this sort of idea that you can compartmentalize

812
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: a person's identity into box A or B. And there's

813
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: actually a study is published in the journal Sex Roles

814
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: UM and involved a hundred and eight hetero is really

815
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: men And what it found is that those men who

816
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: bought into this idea of Madonna horror, meaning like you know,

817
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: if my if my partner it becomes a mother, then

818
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: she is no longer sexually desirable or you know she

819
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: can engage in you know a quote dirty act. Right, Um,

820
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: those men felt less satisfied in the romantic relationships with

821
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: their partners overall. So think about it, like one of

822
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: your most intimate relationships is affected by this overlay. That

823
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: is a complete construction in society. We could delve so

824
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: much more into the Madonna horror complex. We were talking

825
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: off Mike about this eighty page study I found comparing um,

826
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,919
Speaker 1: Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton in the coverage of them

827
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: in this lens. So we'll probably have to do a

828
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: return episode UM on that and discuss that. I just

829
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: wanted to note to the listeners that Annie read all

830
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: eighty pages. Is that interesting? Because that's our Annie. I

831
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: wanted to know more. And speaking of more, we do

832
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: have some more for you. But first we're going to

833
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: pause for one more quick break for word from our sponsor,

834
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: m and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. Another thing we

835
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about in this whole conversation is the

836
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: change of perceptions after becoming parents when you look at

837
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: male versus female how that differs, and the results of

838
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 1: one study looking at the differences in these perceptions UM

839
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 1: of male versus female parents found that both men and

840
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: women viewed women with children as less ambitious than those without,

841
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 1: up to thirty percent less ambitious. And we've we've mentioned

842
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 1: other studies on the show before that might be related,

843
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: um showing that bosses are less likely to give flex

844
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: time to mothers thinking that their their loyalties are divided,

845
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: um are all of the pregnancy discrimination that we've talked

846
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 1: about on the show that we've seen in the news

847
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: a lot lately. And men with children were were rated

848
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: as having a higher social status, seen as more generous,

849
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: more faithful, more honest when mature, all of these good

850
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: things that the women were not seen that way in

851
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 1: this study, right, which it's again that disparity of this

852
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: this thing happens in your life to two people, and

853
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: it's a vastly different outcome in terms of perception. And

854
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 1: again it goes back to identity, because the role of

855
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: motherhood is seen by society is central to a woman's identity.

856
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: And this is from a paper called across the transition

857
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: to parenthood. Um, so his parenthood is more salient for

858
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: women's self conceptions than for men's. And men perceive fathering

859
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: is something they do, whereas women experience mothering is something

860
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: they are. And I will never forget my husband once

861
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: put a post up on Instagram where he said he

862
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: was babysitting our children, and it was a picture of

863
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: him and our children. Oh my goodness, he got it right.

864
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: He it from me, He had it from a lot

865
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: of people. Um. But and that's someone who has awareness

866
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: about these sorts of things. Yeah, it's pretty ingrained, right

867
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: he was. He was not doing and being. And another

868
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: added layer that we've talked about a lot on on

869
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: this show before, especially in our episode around emotional labor,

870
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: is um undervaluing women's work. So traditionally, jobs that are

871
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: traditionally women's work, like child rearing or teaching or nursing

872
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: or cleaning or anything nurturing semi mother esque is undervalued

873
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: in our economy. And this is doubly so for women

874
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: of color. And we have seen and I've seen this

875
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: role into the conversation around women's anger. But um, women

876
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: starting to like the teacher strikes is a great example

877
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: of women fed up and wanting to be compensated rightfully

878
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: so for the work that they're doing that is undervalued.

879
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: A study out of the Institute for Women's Policy Research

880
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 1: in Oxham, America, looked into this whole thing and they

881
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: started by using for criteria to identify women's work um

882
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: occupation primarily composed of women medium wage less than fifteen

883
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: dollars an hour thouand or more women doing performing this job.

884
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: And then the number of jobs projected to grow over

885
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: the next twenty years, and they were they were specifically

886
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: looking at um lower paid women's work and two jobs

887
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: were identified and of the workers for these jobs on

888
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: average were women almost half living one percent I'm sorry, okay,

889
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: almost half live in poverty and the median age is

890
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: thirty six are single mothers about that total percentage are

891
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: women of color. This is impacting a lot of women, right,

892
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: So you think, oh, this this uh, this thing about motherhood.

893
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: It's you know, if you're outside of it, that it

894
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: doesn't extend to you in some way. It does because

895
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: this is a very fabric of society that we're talking about.

896
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:09,439
Speaker 1: These systems in place like education or nursing, and it

897
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: turns out that this ability to care give is really

898
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: not just important to society right now, but sort of

899
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: like the future of humanity. Yeah, because I've heard a

900
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: lot of I think I've heard a whole series about

901
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: what jobs are safest in the future. Well, it turns

902
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: out it's a job that a robot can't do right,

903
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 1: and one thing that robots aren't great at is empathy

904
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 1: and caregiving. So there's been some research showing that in

905
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: the near future, empathy and emotional intelligence are going to

906
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 1: be the most desired traits among human job applicants, which

907
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:49,959
Speaker 1: is blowing my mind just to put it in terms

908
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: like that human versus robot job applicants. Well, I'm just

909
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 1: trying to imagine like, uh, sort of like the bro

910
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 1: version of this, because you know, obviously in the future

911
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 1: this will extend into fields that men are also being

912
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 1: asked to be empathetic or to tap into this sort

913
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: of caregiving role, and so that either is liberating or

914
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: then we redefine these traits as being masculine. Oh yeah,

915
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I there's so many examples of jobs that

916
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: were once women's jobs that once they started making money,

917
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: Like computer science is a good example that was that

918
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 1: used to be primarily dominated by women, but then men

919
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: realized why WHOA, They're making some money, this is a

920
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: needed job, and it came in, took the jobs and

921
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: redefined it as a masculine occupation. So I can very

922
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: much see in the future where um, the same is true.

923
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: Teacher Teachers used to be a masculine profession, but then

924
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: it wasn't getting paid enough. It was seen as like nurtury,

925
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 1: and then it became feminine. I can see it going back.

926
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: If there's money to be made and the power is there,

927
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 1: I can see it changing well. And I can't help

928
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: but like the ut opian version of myself saying, this

929
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 1: is when everybody will be enlightened and liberated and we

930
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: can finally take the sun in the moon and combine them. Um,

931
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 1: but perhaps not um. Sort of. The last thing that

932
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about here in terms of a

933
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:23,479
Speaker 1: casualty of gender identity is politics. Yes, politics, we saved

934
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 1: the worst for last. Isn't that everyone's favorite thing? You

935
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: don't leave on a high note. I'm pretty sure you'll

936
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: leave on a low note, not not for this one. Um,

937
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 1: So let me just lay this out. I think most

938
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 1: people recognize that we in the United States are in

939
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: a sort of systemic, structural, systemic situation here in terms

940
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 1: of misogyny or um ability for a woman to move

941
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: forward or have the same resources as a male counterpart. Right,

942
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: we sort of all agree that short shrift is given

943
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: to women. So we think about this sort of short

944
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: shrift and the reasons why perception right, this masculine feminine um.

945
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 1: Can we extend that to the Democratic Party? I think

946
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: maybe we can, yep. And Jezz Zimmerman, who writes for

947
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: Slate dot Com, I think so as well. And in

948
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: the article why Can't Democrats Get Angry, she argues that

949
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 1: Brett Kavanaugh's testimony underscores herbally quote that the left, even

950
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: the moderate left, is feminized in this country to a

951
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,439
Speaker 1: degree that I have come to believe actually restricts its

952
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 1: avenues for acceptable self expression. So what does she mean

953
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: by that? She means that Democrats are restrained and empathetic

954
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: in the ways that they behave see Christine blaisie Ford,

955
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 1: and that Republicans are bombastic see Kavanaugh and Lindsay Graham.

956
01:03:55,440 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: That this sort of inhospitable environment does not bode well

957
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: for Democrats, and that in a sense, they're rendered ineffectual. Yeah,

958
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: and I was telling you before we started, at as

959
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 1: far back as middle school, I had that in my

960
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: head that the Republican Conservative Party was masculine and aggressive,

961
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: and that the Democratic Party for me was more feminine

962
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: and associated more with women. So I I completely I

963
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 1: think that Zimmerman is onto something. Yeah. She goes on

964
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 1: to write, our weird cultural commitment to the gender binary

965
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: goes way beyond actual living men and women. I love

966
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 1: actual living men and women. If it didn't, people wouldn't

967
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: freak out so badly when someone declines to choose. Masculinity

968
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 1: and femininity are concepts we layer on top of everything,

969
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: from people depends to political parties. Take any opposed things Democrats, Republicans,

970
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 1: cats and dogs, even the sun and moon, and you'll

971
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 1: find one of them associated with physical strength, action and

972
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: domineering behavior, and the other associated with emotion, reticence and calm.

973
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 1: That's not just descriptive, it's prescriptive and prescriptive too. If

974
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: we could judge the moon for yelling, we would, we

975
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 1: would good night moon, And she says, and I'm so

976
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: glad that she pointed out in this article. She said,

977
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: it's worth noting that many of the lawmakers who have

978
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 1: recently been most courageous in standing up against unacceptable miscarriages

979
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 1: of power have been not only women, but women of color,

980
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 1: despite the fact that they have to contend with multiple

981
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: layers of cultural disapproval for doing so. Yes, um, I

982
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: completely agree. When I was thinking of examples off the

983
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 1: top of my head, most of them are women of color. Yeah.

984
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: And I think that this time the extension of this

985
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: binary to politics, to this uh maybe even hampering of

986
01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 1: our the way that our government is currently running. Uh,

987
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: it shows that it really does hurt everyone. And that

988
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: really is what this threat is of motherhood to just

989
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 1: sort of like being a human living on planet Earth

990
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: in the United States right now. Um, you know, it's

991
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 1: these boxes that were being asked to enter into Sunner Moon.

992
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 1: What we actually need both, right, we do need both

993
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 1: and the solution, according to Zimmerman quote, the path forward

994
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 1: for a feminised group has already been laid out by

995
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 1: the third wave. Learned to be a bit, be angry,

996
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: even if you aren't allowed be ruder than you think

997
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: you can be without losing your principles. If they say

998
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 1: feelings don't matter, turn your feelings into a weapon. Never

999
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: shut up, never stand down. And I agree. I agree.

1000
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, tap into your inner Callima, right, like,

1001
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 1: embrace this role of creator and destroyer. I mean, I

1002
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to wear a string of skulls around

1003
01:06:56,800 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: my neck, but if I need to the message across,

1004
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 1: that would be a great fashion choice. You did tell me,

1005
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're a joking that you wore

1006
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: this black turtleneck in honor She's wearing black turtleneck, by

1007
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 1: the way, listeners, in honor of Jason's mom from Friday.

1008
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: I am because I feel like I need to inhabit

1009
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: her spirit. I'll allow her to to live in the

1010
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: light of complexity that she is both mother and destroyer.

1011
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 1: And I feel like we don't know her full story.

1012
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 1: And I would really love it if you could write

1013
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 1: that for her from her perspective. You know, I I

1014
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,479
Speaker 1: I might, I might dabble. All right, all right, let's

1015
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:46,919
Speaker 1: hear it. Novembers coming up. I am debating on whether

1016
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:48,600
Speaker 1: or not to do it. What's the name of the

1017
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: of the year of writing, Nano raimo, Nana raimo? Can

1018
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 1: you explain that for people who don't know what that is.

1019
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: It's the National Novel Writing Mom. There we go, yeah us,

1020
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: and it is coming up. It is a charity for literacy.

1021
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 1: It's that's its goal is promote literacy and reading and writing.

1022
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 1: And I will say it's coming up. If you've ever

1023
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: thought about doing it, and you you have it, I

1024
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 1: highly recommend it because the number one thing it taught

1025
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 1: me is to just write. Just write it. It could

1026
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: be stupid, come back and edit it later. Don't get

1027
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 1: caught up in thinking in your head. I don't really,

1028
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 1: I don't like this. It's not good. That's right. That's right.

1029
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,440
Speaker 1: And now you have inspiration. Callim, Callima. She's great inspiration.

1030
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Julie. Shall

1031
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 1: we both blow out the candle? Yeah? Are you ready?

1032
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:46,719
Speaker 1: I think I'm ready. Thank you. Thank you for joining

1033
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:54,639
Speaker 1: us today. Setting everything on fire, that's right. Few did

1034
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: not get in trouble with the building manager yet. Um. Yes,

1035
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 1: thanks thanks so much for joining us. Please, we'd love

1036
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 1: to have you back any time. Oh yeah, thank you,

1037
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 1: thank you for indulging me. I appreciate it, guys. Yeah,

1038
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:09,679
Speaker 1: and we would love to hear from you listeners as well.

1039
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:13,719
Speaker 1: Where we have issued a call for anything that any fiction,

1040
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 1: fan fiction, non fiction, poetry, anything that you would like

1041
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 1: to share with us that you don't mind us sharing

1042
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 1: on the podcast, We would love to get it. Our

1043
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 1: email is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.

1044
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media. On Twitter

1045
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 1: we are at mom Stuff Podcast and on Instagram we

1046
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: are stuff Mo'm Never told you. Thanks so much for listening,

1047
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 1: and thanks as always to our producer Andrew Howard much