1
00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:03,560
Speaker 1: Alsome Media.

2
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 2: All right, I think it's the time we blow this scene.

3
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,000
Speaker 2: Get everybody in that stuff together. Okay, three two one,

4
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:10,760
Speaker 2: that's podcast.

5
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,200
Speaker 1: Welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed Zitchrun.

6
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 3: Today.

7
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,760
Speaker 2: I'm joined by the esteem Geeta Jackson and Nathan Grayson

8
00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,440
Speaker 2: of independent gaming site After Marth and Nathan, of course

9
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,760
Speaker 2: has a new book out called Stream Big, The Triumphs

10
00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,160
Speaker 2: and Turmoils for Twitch and the Stars behind the Screen.

11
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:36,839
Speaker 1: Both of you, thank you for being here.

12
00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,560
Speaker 4: Thank you for having us, No problem, super fun.

13
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:40,240
Speaker 3: Hell yeah.

14
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,320
Speaker 2: So today we're talking about the games industry, which I

15
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,240
Speaker 2: think we can all agree is going well.

16
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's going super good, bigger than Hollywood as we

17
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:47,239
Speaker 5: all know.

18
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,159
Speaker 1: So to that point, Nathan, what is actually going on

19
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:51,640
Speaker 1: right now?

20
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,479
Speaker 2: Because it feels like over the last few years I

21
00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:54,880
Speaker 2: used to be a games journalist, but I've kind of

22
00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,720
Speaker 2: dropped out of the industry stuff. What's going on?

23
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 6: Well, right now, bunch of games companies are realizing that

24
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 6: they well at least they've decided that what they need

25
00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 6: to do is make fewer, bigger games, and so they're

26
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:10,959
Speaker 6: laying a lot of people off in pursuit of that.

27
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,399
Speaker 6: Because games are in their minds a hits driven business, right,

28
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 6: and so in order to achieve that, they're just like, okay,

29
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,240
Speaker 6: let's put all of our all of our eggs in

30
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,480
Speaker 6: these increasingly smaller baskets and if one of these lands,

31
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,320
Speaker 6: then great, we have the next like League Legends, so

32
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,960
Speaker 6: the next like Fortnite or whatever. And if they fail,

33
00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,320
Speaker 6: then it's a catastrophe and we're going to lay a

34
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,440
Speaker 6: bunch of people off. And the only people who will

35
00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 6: not suffer from this are the executives who are making

36
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 6: these bad decisions.

37
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,399
Speaker 1: And that keeps happening over and over and over. So

38
00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,119
Speaker 1: what is a hit though, Like, well, how do they

39
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:39,840
Speaker 1: define a hit?

40
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,680
Speaker 5: They've defined it by a Hollywood terms, right, like which

41
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 5: which are you you want to be have a level

42
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,520
Speaker 5: of cultural impact one that is inescapable. Fortnite is a

43
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,920
Speaker 5: very good example because literally every child plays Fortnite, right,

44
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,880
Speaker 5: and you can play it on every device. Everyone suddenly

45
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 5: understands the terms through which that game is sort of created,

46
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:08,280
Speaker 5: is made and played.

47
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,799
Speaker 6: At birth, every child it's given an iPad with Fortnite on.

48
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,720
Speaker 5: It's that minecroft, yeah, one of those two. And then

49
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,079
Speaker 5: also there is a saying that a lot of executives

50
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 5: love to tout when they talk about the financial success

51
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,520
Speaker 5: of their industry, which is that video games are a

52
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,480
Speaker 5: bigger industry, more by more. There's more money in video

53
00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,600
Speaker 5: games than Hollywood.

54
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,720
Speaker 4: And I don't really think that that's true.

55
00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,120
Speaker 1: Is there any proof behind the well, I mean they.

56
00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,320
Speaker 5: Might games that are very, very, very successful, like Elderming

57
00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 5: is another great example of it, just a smash hit

58
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,680
Speaker 5: where millions of millions of games were sold. But the

59
00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,880
Speaker 5: thing is that money that you make often goes immediately

60
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 5: back into recouping all the cost of development, because games

61
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,080
Speaker 5: take a lot longer to make than a movie and

62
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,639
Speaker 5: require a lot more people to make them.

63
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of projects, a lot of projects in

64
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 6: this day and age, are rebooted repeatedly over the course

65
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,600
Speaker 6: of their development, like that happened recently with a Dragon

66
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,280
Speaker 6: Age The Veilguard, a game that was originally meant to

67
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 6: be like a live service multiplayer game, which is.

68
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,919
Speaker 1: A weird for that series to take.

69
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,520
Speaker 2: I'm for the for the listeners, you like, avid guy,

70
00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 2: But so a life service game is it's a game.

71
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,480
Speaker 5: It must sort of exist in perpetuity, right. The idea

72
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 5: is that it has seasons of narrative and and gameplay even.

73
00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,080
Speaker 1: Necessarily narrative, just like new stuff coming out.

74
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,160
Speaker 3: Like can you play a monthly fee again?

75
00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,960
Speaker 5: Fortnite is a very good example of this. Fortnite refreshes

76
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,440
Speaker 5: the maps that you used to play the game on.

77
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,600
Speaker 5: They refresh that every occasionally. They call it seasons, like

78
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 5: seasons of television, and they there's always just new skins,

79
00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,400
Speaker 5: new items, new things, suspend your money.

80
00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:47,840
Speaker 1: Collaborations with major brands.

81
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,080
Speaker 6: I the way over here there was an ad for

82
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,040
Speaker 6: like Cowboy Bebop skins in the game now, which.

83
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,400
Speaker 2: Is sick, but so Destiny Too is the one I

84
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,960
Speaker 2: remember with that right, is a lab service game and

85
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,480
Speaker 2: that's owned Vice Sony PlayStation now Sony Interactive Entertainment technically,

86
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,280
Speaker 2: but it's And so this is kind of from my

87
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 2: experience at least gaming a shit tone when I was younger,

88
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,920
Speaker 2: by which I mean like two years ago. But the

89
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 2: fact is that games now aren't just allowed to be

90
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:15,840
Speaker 2: good once.

91
00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:17,000
Speaker 3: They have to be good forever.

92
00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,480
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, you have to be the biggest game ever

93
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,040
Speaker 5: in order to be considered a success forever forever, like

94
00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 5: not just when the game comes out, but also every

95
00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,159
Speaker 5: single month after that for the next year well.

96
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 6: Which also, like I think works very much in conjunction

97
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,279
Speaker 6: with kind of like the line go up mentality of

98
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,640
Speaker 6: business in general, Like your game also has to be

99
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:41,800
Speaker 6: a line that's always going.

100
00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 2: On, yes, And it can't simply be successful in a

101
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,400
Speaker 2: linear sense. It can't just be like a game you sell.

102
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,040
Speaker 2: It is a game you are constantly rebooting. Like even

103
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 2: with Marvel Rivals, they had and very successful game boned

104
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,920
Speaker 2: by Netsy Easy, and they just laid off a bunch

105
00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:57,320
Speaker 2: of people.

106
00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,880
Speaker 4: They laid off all of their their America.

107
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,120
Speaker 1: It was like unctually happened. Oh so it wasn't a

108
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:03,920
Speaker 1: huge layoff.

109
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, so this was also like it was part of

110
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 6: a larger Net East plan to kind of divest from

111
00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,120
Speaker 6: outside of China. Oh okay, yeah, And so like I

112
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,919
Speaker 6: think they were planning to do this even before Marvel

113
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:13,720
Speaker 6: Arrivals took off.

114
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:15,840
Speaker 4: Were getting at folks.

115
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,080
Speaker 5: My favorite example of this phenomenon is BioShock Infinite, a

116
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,279
Speaker 5: game that was incredibly successful, hugely critically acclaimed. After the

117
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,000
Speaker 5: game came out, the studio shuttered like it was over

118
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,640
Speaker 5: immediately immediately, couldn't recoup the costs, essentially like there was

119
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,800
Speaker 5: no amount of money they could make on that game

120
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,800
Speaker 5: that was financially successful and was critically acclaimed, to give

121
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,839
Speaker 5: back to the studio in order for make it like

122
00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,160
Speaker 5: financially prop like a financially stable institution, and then all

123
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,200
Speaker 5: those developers scattered to the winds. That was kind of

124
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,839
Speaker 5: the end of major game development in Boston for.

125
00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 6: Until like literally now with CD project, they hadn't root

126
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,680
Speaker 6: over there at least thoughting up a Boston where they're

127
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,479
Speaker 6: making the next cyberpunk and what's where the CD brot is,

128
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,800
Speaker 6: like they've they were very cyberpunk.

129
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 3: I did play it.

130
00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,120
Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm acting like, I like don't

131
00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 2: have a gaming PC. I have like a gaming PC

132
00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,000
Speaker 2: with like two motherboards inside.

133
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 3: Is beautiful anyway, Yeah.

134
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,159
Speaker 6: You also sitting right behind us as one of the

135
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:18,760
Speaker 6: widest monitors I've seen in my.

136
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,839
Speaker 1: Hole, Like it's a beautiful.

137
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 3: It's amazing.

138
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,280
Speaker 2: But that one was really tortured because the game was

139
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,279
Speaker 2: rushed out, and I don't think I've seen in a

140
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,240
Speaker 2: while like a game that rush and it ended up

141
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:31,320
Speaker 2: being dog shit.

142
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 6: And they like if we're talking about the broader state

143
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,239
Speaker 6: of video games, Another characteristic I think is that most

144
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,599
Speaker 6: big games these days get rushed out in some capacity,

145
00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 6: it's just less glaring than it was for Cyberpunk. Cyberpunk

146
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,000
Speaker 6: was a lot of functional issues. Right now he gets

147
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 6: a lot of games that are rushed out but polished,

148
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,240
Speaker 6: so they have all of these like mechanical problems and

149
00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,720
Speaker 6: like other more deep seated issues where they could have

150
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,040
Speaker 6: solved it just by like you know, giving the developers

151
00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:58,760
Speaker 6: more time to cook.

152
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,160
Speaker 1: But they know that people will be off.

153
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,400
Speaker 6: Put by a game that doesn't work, so they make

154
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:06,120
Speaker 6: sure it works.

155
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 3: But it's not good exactly. What can you give me

156
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:09,440
Speaker 3: an example?

157
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,320
Speaker 1: Dragon Age Dragonage of the Vilguard is facing. Was it bad?

158
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,360
Speaker 5: So I'm like huge, I'm a huge dragon Age fan,

159
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,240
Speaker 5: and I was really looking forward to this game because

160
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,160
Speaker 5: I'm like invested in the narrative and the characters and

161
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 5: dragon Age in Quisition. I think like a lot of

162
00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,480
Speaker 5: people who if you've played are listening to this and

163
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,080
Speaker 5: played dragon Age Inquisition, you know the experience of you're

164
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 5: incredibly fucking depressed.

165
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 4: You yeah, completely just mainline.

166
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 5: A game and the writing and the characters are so

167
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,640
Speaker 5: good it becomes your entire world and you can just

168
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,120
Speaker 5: live inside that fandom. And that was me for a

169
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,160
Speaker 5: little bit so I waited like ten years for this

170
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,040
Speaker 5: game to come out, and the longer a game stays

171
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 5: in development, though, generally speaking, the worse it will be

172
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 5: when you actually get your hands on it.

173
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:51,840
Speaker 1: And when the.

174
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,600
Speaker 5: Game came out, it worked and it functioned, but it

175
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 5: was not finally tuned there when you could tell and

176
00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,559
Speaker 5: feel when you played it there were things that should

177
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,640
Speaker 5: have been there that were not there, and it felt

178
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,000
Speaker 5: empty and like it was missing things.

179
00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,960
Speaker 2: With role playing games, it's extremely important to get the

180
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:09,800
Speaker 2: mechanics right.

181
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,640
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, And like this was a byproduct of just

182
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,000
Speaker 6: like how the game was made. So again, it started

183
00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,720
Speaker 6: many years ago. It's like it began development like all

184
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,240
Speaker 6: nearly a decade ago as one kind of game, as

185
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,720
Speaker 6: a multiplayer live service game, and then over time EA

186
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,120
Speaker 6: and bio where were like, this isn't working. Let's reboot

187
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,000
Speaker 6: it mid development and try something else that didn't work.

188
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 6: They had key personal leave. They're like, let's reboot it

189
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,719
Speaker 6: again into something else, and that's what became the game

190
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 6: that came out, which is like this mishmash of all

191
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,480
Speaker 6: these mechanics and assets they came up with over time,

192
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,200
Speaker 6: and so internally the way this played out, is. They

193
00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,680
Speaker 6: were like, well, again, it needs to reach a certain

194
00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,360
Speaker 6: like quality and review bar from the cell. So let's

195
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,840
Speaker 6: just make sure that it feels polished, Like let's pop

196
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,000
Speaker 6: all this stuff together, but make sure it looks nice.

197
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 2: It has the smell and the taste of a triple

198
00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,480
Speaker 2: A game without actually being fun. So what is it

199
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,000
Speaker 2: that makes so expensive though? Like, what is the cost center?

200
00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:03,959
Speaker 2: Is it people?

201
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,079
Speaker 1: Is it comput is something we don't know?

202
00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 6: So this is the thing I there There's been a

203
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,920
Speaker 6: lot of discourse around like the increasing, you know, level

204
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 6: of fidelity that you need for a triple A game,

205
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,240
Speaker 6: and like all of these various concerns about the number

206
00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,280
Speaker 6: of people that you need to create all these assets

207
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,760
Speaker 6: and maintain that. But I think that Jason Schreier in

208
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 6: particular has done really good reporting on the real problem,

209
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,319
Speaker 6: which is mismanagement at every level. Executive is making poor

210
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,079
Speaker 6: decisions while siphoning away millions and millions of dollars from

211
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,439
Speaker 6: a project.

212
00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,160
Speaker 1: Siphoning it from to when themselves.

213
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,920
Speaker 4: Themselves, Yeah, often themselves.

214
00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,600
Speaker 1: How does that mean, you know, check out like the

215
00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,360
Speaker 1: kind of money that throws sell nick.

216
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,080
Speaker 2: Oh okay, So it's like the CEOs of making obscene

217
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,880
Speaker 2: amounts of mind in a lot of cases.

218
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:48,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, fucking hell.

219
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 5: So often in uh AT E three, Rest and Peace

220
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,840
Speaker 5: and other video game sort of industry conferences that will

221
00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,680
Speaker 5: make comparisons to Hollywood between themselves. In Hollywood, they want

222
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,560
Speaker 5: to be a part of the entertainment into say, they want.

223
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,080
Speaker 1: To be paid like David Zaslaw exactly exactly.

224
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 5: But there's the huge differences between what how Hollywood operates

225
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,320
Speaker 5: and how the video game industry operates. And the main

226
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,559
Speaker 5: difference is there, these are not the people who work

227
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 5: on games are not unionized craft people right, with a

228
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 5: culture of unionization in their workplaces, so they really can

229
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,680
Speaker 5: like you are a contract worker. You sign on for

230
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,199
Speaker 5: a gig and if you aren't there when the game

231
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 5: is completed, you don't get your name in the credits,

232
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,680
Speaker 5: and you just have to move in a herd from

233
00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,559
Speaker 5: studio to studio to studio.

234
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 3: And all those credits important. I'm guessing they're.

235
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 4: Very important in order to get better paying jobs.

236
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:43,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll just put it on your LinkedIn.

237
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:44,160
Speaker 7: No.

238
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,560
Speaker 5: I mean, especially if you're working on a project like

239
00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 5: at Monolith, the studio that's shattered this week. They were

240
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,280
Speaker 5: they're two years into development on a wonder Woman game

241
00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 5: and wonder Woman and I think you're a DC comics person.

242
00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,160
Speaker 1: I'm more of a Marvel person, but I'm familiar with

243
00:10:59,200 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 1: wonder Woman.

244
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:00,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I hope so.

245
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 5: Well, it's like, it's interesting that you say that because,

246
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,680
Speaker 5: like wonder Woman in comparison to the other two big

247
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,960
Speaker 5: heroes at DC, I'm a big DC comics person.

248
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 4: Uh, Superman and Batman.

249
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,040
Speaker 5: They've both had cartoons, movies the gamut, like video games, everything.

250
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:20,200
Speaker 5: Even Superman had an extremely bad series. Oh yes, a

251
00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 5: classic god. But there's with wonder Woman. There's been no cartoons. Uh,

252
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,400
Speaker 5: there are a couple of flagshit comics, but they've had

253
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,640
Speaker 5: a lot of a harder time finding really good writers

254
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,920
Speaker 5: to write really good Wonder Woman books. And there have

255
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:35,960
Speaker 5: been zero games. This would have been like the first

256
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,880
Speaker 5: game there. They worked on it for two years and

257
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,840
Speaker 5: there's a lot of people now who cannot even talk

258
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,280
Speaker 5: about what they did on these games. It can't show

259
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:43,720
Speaker 5: the art.

260
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 1: That they they don't have the assets they come.

261
00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, the assets don't belong to them. They haven't been publicized.

262
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,079
Speaker 5: And these are also contract workers, so they don't have

263
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 5: the rights to anything that they have worked on.

264
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 2: And I just want to say none of these are

265
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 2: actionable legal threats. But mono If Studios made one of

266
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,320
Speaker 2: my two of my most favorite Gameskeeter. We were talking

267
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,280
Speaker 2: about this when we came in Lord of the Rings,

268
00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 2: Shadow of Mortal and the Shadow of War, two of

269
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 2: the best games ever made.

270
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 1: I have.

271
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,559
Speaker 2: Not only Hades is a game. Hades is a game

272
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,439
Speaker 2: I think I will be playing until I'm an old man. Yes, absolutely,

273
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,800
Speaker 2: but Shadow of War especially, like these are amazing games.

274
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,960
Speaker 2: And these are games the systems are perfect, and they're beautiful,

275
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:23,199
Speaker 2: and they.

276
00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,079
Speaker 5: They give you that feeling that I think these major

277
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,719
Speaker 5: studios are trying to chase in these enormous games like

278
00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 5: Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven and this game. This world is

279
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 5: a living world. This world things are happening inside of it,

280
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,679
Speaker 5: even when you are not there is the feeling you

281
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 5: get I'm playing that and.

282
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:41,240
Speaker 1: The orcs are talking shit about you.

283
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 3: And that's the thing.

284
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,120
Speaker 2: So to explain this game to people who have not

285
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,440
Speaker 2: even don't play games, I really recommend it. So what

286
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,480
Speaker 2: it is is it's kind of an open world game

287
00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,680
Speaker 2: where you run around. You're some Lord of the Rings fellow.

288
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,600
Speaker 2: I do not remember the story not going to try

289
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 2: and remember. But the big thing about it is something

290
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,640
Speaker 2: called the Nemesis system. And there are these orcs and

291
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,319
Speaker 2: various troll creatures that will and they're all generated procedurally,

292
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,600
Speaker 2: even flawlessly said that word, and where they come up

293
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,360
Speaker 2: and they're like someone of Biles and they'll come up

294
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,040
Speaker 2: and they'll be covered in postures and be like, oh,

295
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,079
Speaker 2: man field off and then you're able to It kind

296
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,720
Speaker 2: of mirrors my real life and that some horrible creature

297
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,280
Speaker 2: comes up to me and goes off, and then I

298
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 2: convert them to my side. So you can convert these

299
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 2: orcs and they follow you around and they have these

300
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,160
Speaker 2: or charts.

301
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,120
Speaker 5: Yes of like, and if you die to an orc

302
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 5: in a combat encounter, that orc will then go back

303
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,720
Speaker 5: to his little Orc friends and be like, I fucking

304
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,680
Speaker 5: fucked up, and they'll talk about.

305
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 6: Talk about it, and they'll talk to you later and

306
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,559
Speaker 6: they'll recount specifically, like how they killed you and stuff.

307
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:42,680
Speaker 1: It's like they keep that in mind.

308
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,320
Speaker 2: And it's quite literally what I love about video games

309
00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,120
Speaker 2: large It's just like a weird freak system full of

310
00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,080
Speaker 2: weird goblin creatures. You can see each other.

311
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:52,680
Speaker 4: Have you played Dwarf Fortress.

312
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,680
Speaker 1: Ever I've tried it never really stuck.

313
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,400
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm gonna teach you how you're tea.

314
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,560
Speaker 5: It's because it's this thing, right do you? There are

315
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,959
Speaker 5: character with memory, right, and they learn things and they

316
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 5: have personalities, right, and that change. Like this is a

317
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 5: game that's made by two guys of two brothers. Until

318
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,920
Speaker 5: very recently it was literally just the two of them, right,

319
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 5: And like it is so fascinating how you can have

320
00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,760
Speaker 5: that same sort of magical black box experience of there's

321
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 5: magic inside of this, there's a personality inside of this.

322
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,960
Speaker 5: One of them comes from two brothers that have worked

323
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 5: on this thing on and off for like twenty fucking

324
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 5: years of their life.

325
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 4: And the other is an enormous studio using the IP

326
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:33,840
Speaker 4: Lord of the Rings.

327
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,600
Speaker 2: And I just want to be clear about a few things. One,

328
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 2: this is one of the few games I've heard like

329
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,680
Speaker 2: unilaterally loved by games journalists. Like, sure, there are people

330
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 2: who don't like the genre, but anyone who has even

331
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 2: the smell of RPGs loves this shit.

332
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:45,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

333
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 2: I also want to add the WB Games CEO JB.

334
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 2: Perett and WB Games former CEO David hadda do you

335
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,840
Speaker 2: want enemies of better offline? You want enemies of this show?

336
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,720
Speaker 2: Your growth all costs for economy bullshit? Will you will

337
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,800
Speaker 2: be by all the people who listened to the show.

338
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 2: So the reason that this, I'm literally looking at Nathan's

339
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,480
Speaker 2: story about this, the reason that Monoliths got shut down

340
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,840
Speaker 2: is just that Warner Brothers cannot run a fucking studio.

341
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 3: They're stupid and bad in the industry.

342
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, like I mean you know they've also been

343
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,240
Speaker 6: tanking tons of like television and movie properties too.

344
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:18,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

345
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,240
Speaker 5: No, the Warner ever since Warner Brothers Discoveries on my

346
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 5: shit list and has been for a long time. It's

347
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 5: an incredible It's an incredible Hollywood studio. It's so much

348
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 5: incredible history. The whole story of Coyote Versus Acme has

349
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,200
Speaker 5: been I just want to jump off for three. Okay,

350
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 5: there is there was a movie in production, Coyote Versus Acme,

351
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,320
Speaker 5: an adaptation of the Looney Tunes cartoon, you know, the

352
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,760
Speaker 5: Coyote Roadrunner in the Coyote, And it had John Cena

353
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 5: in it, and it by all accounts, everyone who worked

354
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 5: on it said it was incredible.

355
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: It used the James Gunn movie.

356
00:15:55,320 --> 00:16:00,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, James gun movie. He it was also what's the movie.

357
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 2: James Gunn By the way, for the listeners got into

358
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 2: the Galaxy Suicide Squad.

359
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,160
Speaker 5: Having Superman movie upcoming Superman I'm freaking psyched about I

360
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 5: love it. Yeah, but you know it was going to

361
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 5: be a Roger Rabbit type thing, a mixed media animation

362
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,560
Speaker 5: and real life stuff like a lot of the stuff

363
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 5: that moviegoers actually really really love seeing, real stunts and

364
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 5: real effects, not CGI, not VFX, that kind of thing.

365
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 2: I'm chipping that the chip Dales movie did really well

366
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:27,120
Speaker 2: as well on Disney.

367
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 1: Plus that's a very similar thing anyway, can Yeah.

368
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they the movies wrapped. It's totally fully completed.

369
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 1: Sheld it, sheldy literally for tax reasons.

370
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,560
Speaker 4: Literally for tax reasons. No one will ever see it.

371
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 2: And David Zaslav, if you go back to the Shareholders

372
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,680
Speaker 2: Supremacy to Parter, you will learn all about him. Jack Welch,

373
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 2: the CEO of G who created the modern culture of layoffs,

374
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,160
Speaker 2: literally the guy who didn't invent layoffs. But if you

375
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,400
Speaker 2: go back to those episodes, there's the story of Jack Welch,

376
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 2: c of G. Well, upcoming CEO one of the candidates

377
00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 2: for it was running several divisions and came up with

378
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 2: this idea, what if we just laid people off to

379
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,000
Speaker 2: increase profits and not the time layoffs were considered something

380
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,439
Speaker 2: you only did as a last resort. But Jack Welch.

381
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,520
Speaker 2: Jack Welch thought what if we did this? He did it,

382
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,200
Speaker 2: and everyone else went, that's a great fucking idea. Number

383
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,120
Speaker 2: go up. The reason I'm bringing this up is that

384
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 2: David Zaslav's CEO of Warner Brothers Discovery, once referred to

385
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 2: Jack Welch as like a big brother to him. Okay,

386
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 2: I think I just want you to know everything I've

387
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 2: been doing for the last few years has driven me insane.

388
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 4: Because truning into the Joker in real.

389
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 2: Time, the makeup is appearing on our faces. But Coyote

390
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 2: versus actme was like will Forte was going to be

391
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,439
Speaker 2: and it was like going to be a very like

392
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 2: it very clearly would have done really well, really really well,

393
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 2: and they just shelled it for tax reasons. This is

394
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:47,720
Speaker 2: the same company that owns WAWB Games, which owns Monolith

395
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:48,919
Speaker 2: This is the likes.

396
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 5: It is like the tech industry ification of the entire

397
00:17:54,560 --> 00:18:00,040
Speaker 5: entertainment industry. Everything just disastrous for art in general. You

398
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 5: can see it very visually in film, in cinema just

399
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,199
Speaker 5: sort of. I used to be a person that just

400
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,560
Speaker 5: fucking loved blockbuster action movies.

401
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,080
Speaker 4: I love them.

402
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 3: That's losings wrong with that.

403
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 5: In the summer, when it's hot out, nothing better you

404
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 5: can do than go to a theater for two hours

405
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 5: with air conditioning and just enjoy mindless action. Except they

406
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,440
Speaker 5: all started to suck when Disney realized that you can

407
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,720
Speaker 5: feed people like not like the suggestion of a plot,

408
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 5: but not actually a story. Essentially, you just sort of

409
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,160
Speaker 5: allude to things that will happen in the future, and

410
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,879
Speaker 5: you can make billions of dollars off of that. And

411
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 5: you don't actually have to shoot on sets. You can

412
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 5: just put people in front of a green screen and

413
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 5: then ununionized VFX workers can fill in everything else for you.

414
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 2: Right, And this is also something that fed into the

415
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 2: creation of one of the worst things fandoms.

416
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I love the experience of being in

417
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,879
Speaker 5: a fandom, but there is this tribalistic thing that is

418
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:55,320
Speaker 5: disturbing to me.

419
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 2: Let me be a little more specific, because I'm a

420
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 2: huge fan of many things. Yeah, like I've seen Queen

421
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,439
Speaker 2: to the Stone Age sixteen times. I'm like, I'm a

422
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,439
Speaker 2: nasty freak when it comes to a person of interest,

423
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 2: Like I really love my ship. I consider fendom, or

424
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 2: at least perhaps I'm just describing the worst elements of

425
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,120
Speaker 2: it as something separate where it's not really about liking something,

426
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 2: it's about memorizing facts.

427
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,600
Speaker 4: It is about being a defender of the thing I.

428
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 6: Say, it's about being in a tribe. And like, this

429
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 6: comes up a lot in my book, is like, you know,

430
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 6: the ways that fandoms can behave. One of the things

431
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,200
Speaker 6: that I found especially interesting in the course of reporting

432
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,159
Speaker 6: it is that there are also fandoms around, just like

433
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 6: pure hatred. One of my chapters tell Me is about Keffel's,

434
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 6: who is a streamer.

435
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's pretty controversial.

436
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 6: You know, did some dumb bullshit, but also like managed

437
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,160
Speaker 6: to attract this hate mob from Kiwi farms right, and

438
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 6: when I interviewed her while she was still like on

439
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 6: the run was ky FHMs.

440
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 3: Sorry.

441
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 6: They are an online forum dedicated to like dosing people,

442
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,200
Speaker 6: so finding their personal information and you know, outing it

443
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 6: and then.

444
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 5: Coming in and like of course they particularly target marginalized

445
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 5: people because they the goal and the goal of most

446
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 5: hate fandoms is to get a reaction out of the

447
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 5: person that you want. It is like to cause them

448
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 5: pain and then to use that pain as your personal

449
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 5: source of entertainment.

450
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 6: What I was gonna say, yes, yeah, is that in

451
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 6: her particular case, you know, she was like showing me

452
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 6: some of the things that these people were doing in

453
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 6: their free time in addition to directly harassing her, and

454
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 6: these involved like making what were effectively like fan art

455
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,880
Speaker 6: and even fan songs about her, just from the perspective

456
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 6: of someone who despises her, who likes her. But the

457
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,880
Speaker 6: mechanics were all really similar, and so like fandom can

458
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 6: be this thing that coalesces using the exact same again,

459
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 6: like sets of tools and behaviors, but around despising someone

460
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 6: as opposed to liking them.

461
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 2: So this is the thing that really gets me because

462
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 2: I have to wonder if the reason that brought up fandoms,

463
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 2: other than just despising them is I have to wonder

464
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 2: if they're not part of not saying that it's the fold,

465
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 2: but I feel like the entertainment industry, and by extension,

466
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 2: the game's industry, is really trying to sell to them

467
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 2: when Marv I love the first run of Marvel movies.

468
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm a little pig. Show me if it's the charming people.

469
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 4: Ironman movie is fucking amazing.

470
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 5: It is a really great film, and it's because they

471
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 5: let Favro be Farro.

472
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 2: You had the charming people doing the things and they

473
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 2: were talking and it was enjoying, enjoyable to watch them.

474
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 2: But it feels like it really got into the hog

475
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 2: slop era where it's just you, like this guy, look

476
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,479
Speaker 2: at this guy. Look, we've got Jack Black and we've

477
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 2: got Lizzo in the Mandalorian. Look you remember that thing

478
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,120
Speaker 2: from that thing? Look it's it's the Dark Troopers from

479
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 2: the Star Wars game. You remember Dark Forces.

480
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 4: So it's a frend. They fly now, blah blah blah.

481
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 2: You know it's like yes, But it's the reason I

482
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 2: bring that up is that's a commodity at this point.

483
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 2: It's if it stops being about telling a story when

484
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,640
Speaker 2: it's more symbolic, when it's more about just people being

485
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 2: factions against or for something, it's just can I sell

486
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 2: you a fucking product? And when it comes to I

487
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 2: actually wanted to ask with Twitch the cultures around streamers.

488
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 2: Are those different to like forums culture or social media culture,

489
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 2: like the more I synchronous culture. Is there something about

490
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 2: the live experience that changes things?

491
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: Oh?

492
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, completely, because I mean, for one, there's just the

493
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 6: basic fact that if you are in a twitch chat,

494
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 6: you can say something that the person who's on screen

495
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 6: might immediately react to, right, and that people in that

496
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 6: chat might immediately react to, And that immediacy changes everything

497
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 6: about it, because I mean just think about like how

498
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 6: we have conversations. If somebody is able to immediately react,

499
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 6: they are not going to consider what they're saying very right,

500
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,479
Speaker 6: They're just going to go for it. Especially if it's

501
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 6: like a fast moving Twitch chat. Everyone's just trying to

502
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 6: say the most incendiary thing possible because that's all that

503
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 6: gets noticed. Yeah, something measured or interesting.

504
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 5: Perfect example of this is hasan piker saying off the

505
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 5: cuff America to serve Tin eleven.

506
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, which I know is not what he meant to say.

507
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 5: Well, but he meant to say, America created the conditions

508
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 5: that created the people that right to us.

509
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 6: Yeah, in that right, like he explained that during that

510
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 6: same stream happens well, and also what happens is that

511
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 6: people then clipped that out of context. Yes, and then

512
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 6: you know, surfaced it on all.

513
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 5: These other and now this clip will haunt him forever

514
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 5: every time someone is mad at him. He has a

515
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 5: similarly sized, like hate fandom that is constantly, constantly trying

516
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 5: to get a rise out of him, and it really Yeah.

517
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 2: Find destiny, different kind of destiny to the game.

518
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, destiny that sucks.

519
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 3: I'm going to get him. And Norman Finkelstein.

520
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 2: When you you when you speak, it's like Wikipedia.

521
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 4: It to be by satandibly.

522
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about that too much.

523
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: It's funny as well because as a just a gentleman

524
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: podcaster with a decent sized fandom, I don't get as

525
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: many insane people. I don't get people threatening or hating

526
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: me other than everyone because.

527
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 3: They wish I was dead.

528
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 2: But it feels like there's something altogether different, specifically about

529
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 2: games because I left games journalism in like two thousand

530
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: and eight. Oh no, no, I like and even then

531
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 2: someone fucking doxed me. I got dogs because there was

532
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: someone I reviewed a game I'm not even gonna name,

533
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: just because it also leads to the funniest YouTube in

534
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 2: the world.

535
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 3: But there was an MMRP.

536
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 2: I reviewed that fucking sucked, and they claimed I didn't

537
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 2: play it, of course, And then someone posted my parents'

538
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: address and I'd moved to New York, and I really

539
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: had to stop myself being like, missed me, bitch. But

540
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 2: then I emailed the developers and I was like, fucking

541
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: take this shit down now, but now it's constant.

542
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 5: I reviewed the most recent Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy sixteen,

543
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 5: which is a game I said has some of the

544
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 5: In the review, this is what I said. That the

545
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 5: combat was thrilling and incredible. You fucking go to space

546
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 5: and punch a dragon in the head, like, it is

547
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 5: so fucking cool. But the story is dogshit and I

548
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 5: hated it. I hated it every second.

549
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 6: I'm going to say that most stories that involve going

550
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 6: to space and punching and dragon like don't really cohere. Otherwise, Yeah,

551
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 6: it's hard to make that into a compelling narrative.

552
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I especially like it was a game where

553
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 5: there was a subplot with slavery and it was handled really, really,

554
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 5: really poorly.

555
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 3: I personally thought the whole game was bad. But that's

556
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 3: why I don't review games.

557
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 5: No, I just like, when you give me a combo meter.

558
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 5: I just go into stickomad. It's something that just happens

559
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 5: to me. But no I said those things, and I

560
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 5: tried to be fair and complimentary to it. The first

561
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 5: thing that happened was someone found my email address and

562
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 5: told me to kill myself Jesus.

563
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

564
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 5: Well, it's like I similarly gave the Harry Potter game

565
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 5: a pretty dismal review, and there is a reaction. There

566
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 5: is an entire culture devoted to trying to seed reactionary

567
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 5: politics into young minds through the fandom.

568
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 4: Of video games.

569
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 6: It's like games are like the easiest mark for that

570
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 6: because I think that. I mean, for one, a lot

571
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 6: of people have based their identity on games. That's the

572
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 6: starting point, right, And then the other element of that

573
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 6: is that a lot of that identity comes out of

574
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 6: this perceived persecution complex. Right, games were once for nerds

575
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 6: who are bullied.

576
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 5: Content only that though there was a real reactionary movement

577
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 5: against video games post Columbine right with Jack Thompson, their

578
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 5: congressional hearings about whether or no or not games were

579
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 5: evil and we're destroying the minds of youth, which is

580
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 5: obviously not true. When I recently went to the UN.

581
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: Look at us.

582
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, we're normal people.

583
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: I mean, my mind has been destroyed.

584
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 3: My mind was my mind's perfect.

585
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

586
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: Anyway, so you went to the UN.

587
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 5: I went to the UN and I was on this

588
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 5: panel to talk about terrorism and and extremism and gaming spaces.

589
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 5: And the one thing that many of the panelists made

590
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 5: sure to say was that this idea that it's violent

591
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 5: video games that cause violence is not true, and in fact,

592
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 5: often games are pro social spaces. They encourage isolated people

593
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 5: to interact with other people and form friendships. It's just

594
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 5: that those people are so vulnerable, and people extremists know

595
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 5: how vulnerable.

596
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: These people are.

597
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 5: It's very easy to say, join a discord server and

598
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 5: then start spreading dog whistles about like extremist like white

599
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 5: supremacists thought, and then you normalize these things, these expressions

600
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 5: and these phrases and these images, and then you can

601
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 5: take those people out of that bigger discord server and

602
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 5: funnel them into more and more extremist space.

603
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: And what's insane is it seems to get back to

604
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: a point I was getting as well, is that they're

605
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: trying to monetize this. They're trying to monetize it by

606
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: making the games less about being good games but symbolic

607
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: of stuff. And then the right wing types seem to

608
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: see games that are not doing that, like Dragon Age

609
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: the Veil God and being like, ah has begun it's

610
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: which means black I guess, like like just.

611
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 6: Well, no, there's a there's a new one every week too,

612
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 6: Like there's a new DEI in video games controversy every week,

613
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,959
Speaker 6: and like it wasn't always this way, but after like

614
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 6: there there was a conspiracy movement last year around a

615
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 6: consulting firm called Sweet Baby In and that is when

616
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 6: this sort of became a well oiled machine. That's when

617
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 6: all of these content creators.

618
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 4: Started trying it was constantly.

619
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 5: Their biggest crime essentially was that the head of the company,

620
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 5: Kim Bellair, is a black woman, and like that's it.

621
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: That's literally just it something she controlled.

622
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely to be a black woman creator.

623
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: So what we're saying about as well, but.

624
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so like now you just have these people,

625
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 6: you have content creators who've made this their entire identity

626
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 6: and like their entire brand, and so like Geta was saying,

627
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 6: you know, games can be really pro social, but you'll

628
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 6: have these people come in and sort of say, okay, well,

629
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 6: these games that you like are being taken away by

630
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 6: this evil dee I woke mob. And so your purpose,

631
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 6: the underlying purpose that maybe you as a person have

632
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 6: been looking for, is now to fight a battle against

633
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 6: these people who are taking your toys away. And like,

634
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 6: that works really well on a lot of people who

635
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 6: you know, feel purposeless, directionless, always that we all commonly

636
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 6: feel under.

637
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: Capitalists, and I feel like and I feel like as well.

638
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: Games are an incredible vector for that, not just because

639
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: there's things to a lie around, but also there's a

640
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: satisfaction to them.

641
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

642
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: The reason I play Haides all the time, I have

643
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: Haides on my I'm not playing it right now, I would.

644
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: The reason I play Hades is it feels good. It

645
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: feels like you have industry over something you have you

646
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: can get good at something.

647
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: I'll take this a step further, please.

648
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 6: I think that the core fantasy of a lot of

649
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 6: video games, no matter what they're setting is, whether they're

650
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 6: sci fi or fantasy, are set in the present day,

651
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 6: is what if capitalism was fair, if every input gave

652
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 6: you a fair output, a consistent one.

653
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, oh I like that.

654
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: Thing you get better and better over time.

655
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 5: Look at like a sim city, right, Yes, you in

656
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 5: sim city, you are essentially the mayor of a city.

657
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 5: You are the developer of the city. You're the engineer

658
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 5: of the city. You design the entire city, and you

659
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 5: also have control over its taxes. And it is is

660
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 5: like just a equals ash. It Basically, when you look

661
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 5: at how the tax system works in some city, it

662
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 5: assumes that taxes are always fair.

663
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 4: Right and consistent and consistent, and they don't.

664
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 5: You won't get a huge lobby from the people in

665
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 5: the highest tax bracket asking for their taxes to be lowered.

666
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: I wonder if they would add that they should there

667
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: should be just the same city, which is real.

668
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm sure the matters in the taxes. City's

669
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 6: like torn out of the wires.

670
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: The city skylines, the city skylines.

671
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: I love watching the Cities by Cities by Diana, one

672
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: of the endorsed Flying Best Instagram accounts.

673
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 5: I do love Cities by Diana so much. I wanted

674
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 5: to interview her for a long time.

675
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: But she's amazing, Diana, You're always welcome on the show.

676
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 4: A beautiful and unique mind. I love her.

677
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: So let's change change topics to something I actually really

678
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: opposed a thing often off, So how long have you been.

679
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,959
Speaker 1: Going a little bit more than a hear? So?

680
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: How is the company structured? Exactly?

681
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: Well?

682
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 5: Okay, so it's called aftermath because we all used to

683
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 5: work at Kataku, right right, and none of us really

684
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 5: had much editorial control at Kataku, even Riley, who was

685
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 5: managing editor there, like he his like the story of

686
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 5: his life is having strong opinions and wanting to enact

687
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 5: the plans based on his opinions and then.

688
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 4: Being told no that he can't do it.

689
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 5: Essentially, so we are the aftermath of all of that,

690
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 5: the slow dissolution of Geomedia and our own just losing

691
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 5: our brains working there with the conditions there.

692
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: Geomedia was the formal holding company of Gizmoto dot I

693
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: nine and.

694
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: Came out of Dowker being sued into oblivion, right, yes.

695
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, And we we own the company and we try

696
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 5: to structure it in such a way where we all

697
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 5: have a relative amount of control over the work we

698
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 5: do and what we want to do. We are not

699
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 5: technically a co op, but we try to behave as

700
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 5: if we're contact.

701
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 6: Is that a lot of a lot of like co

702
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 6: ops are not co ops because it's a it's weird

703
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 6: on taxes and everyone's just like, yeah, dwarfing into one

704
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 6: whenever it's got to work and it's better to just

705
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 6: be an LLC or something else. Yeah, but it's worker

706
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 6: own outside investment, no outside capital. We literally just rely

707
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 6: on subscriptions and nothing else for now. We might incorporate

708
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 6: a small amount of ad based stuff in the future,

709
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 6: but that'll just be on like a podcast.

710
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: And there's nothing and there's nothing wrong with ads.

711
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I definitely can't because someone listening to this

712
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: is probably going to email me and be like, did

713
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: you hear there's an ai AD as an ai AD

714
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: that ran Did you hear the ai AD? It ran

715
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: off the ai AD? If you want emailing me or

716
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: messaging me about the ai AD, I have heard you

717
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: over one hundred and fifty times, and every single person.

718
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: I'm not bitter. I'm just like, at this point, if

719
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: you think it's novel to mention this to me, it isn't.

720
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: And every time I kind of roll my eyes. And

721
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: if you're trying to hurt me, which you would love,

722
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: then keep going, but please don't. But nevertheless, it's good

723
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 2: that it's good that this exists, though, because my experience

724
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: of games journalism was Future Publishing and Dennis so I

725
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: won a little bit of Zitron law for all of you.

726
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: So I was a games journalist from the age of sixteen.

727
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: I interned at Computer and Video Games Magazine is steamed

728
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: out there, owned by Dennis Publishing, sold to Future Publishing.

729
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: Really like out of the toilet, into the toilet.

730
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 4: Situation worst or toilet.

731
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

732
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: And I worked at PC Zone as well, and it

733
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: was definitely and there's British libel laws which will stop

734
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: me being fully honest here. It was a challenging corporate

735
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: environment with many incentive structures that affected the output and

736
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: structure of the work regularly. And it's funny because games

737
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: journalism feels like something that could be bigger and better

738
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: than it is, but it't.

739
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 3: It just won't be.

740
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 5: So like the example that I think is really useful

741
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 5: is the Kataka. Essentially, we all worked there in a

742
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 5: certain era where we had an editor in chief who

743
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 5: was like an old school magazine guy like went to

744
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 5: the Columbia School of Journalism, really wanted us to get

745
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 5: scoops and we had for at least a short while

746
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 5: management that understood the value of actually reporting news and

747
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 5: not caring about the reaction from quote unquote gamers. However,

748
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 5: that did not make us very advertiser friendly. So now

749
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 5: where we are at with Kataku after everyone that we

750
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 5: worked with has left, essentially they're in an environment where

751
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 5: they're like, what advertisers want is not news on how

752
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 5: badly the industry is doing. What they would prefer is

753
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 5: guides and hype, and what are gamers want? What are

754
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 5: gamers talking about? You know, I like reporting on fandom

755
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 5: because I do think that the cultural impact of gaming

756
00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 5: is really fascinating. And frankly, I did not realize when

757
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 5: we started Aftermath that we'd be doing journalism that is

758
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 5: actually quite important in understanding the slow dissolution of democracy

759
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 5: in America. But it certainly seems like it has been.

760
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 6: You know, I think that it's worth contextualizing that gaming

761
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 6: has often been a canary in the coal mine for

762
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 6: the slow dissolution of democracy and of you know, these

763
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 6: cultural movements that can.

764
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 3: You elaborate.

765
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 2: Gamer Gate literally, gamer Nason and both of you split

766
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: this question, I think would be good. Can you describe

767
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: game and Gate for people to outside of it.

768
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 6: Gamer Gate was kind of the first like real reactionary

769
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 6: movement video games. Basically, I mean I had a lot

770
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 6: of personal experience.

771
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: You you had a little bit of a pot.

772
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 6: There was a you know, prominent indie game developer named

773
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 6: Zoe Quinn and she and I ended up dating for

774
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 6: a minute, and gamers to this to me and will

775
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 6: not gamers. Basically, she had a jilted X who published

776
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 6: a manifesto about her in which he claimed, among other things,

777
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 6: that she had, you know, effectively slept with me for

778
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 6: positive coverage of her game, when that never actually happened.

779
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 6: There was no such coverage. It was all bullshit. But

780
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 6: a lot of people, a lot of gamers who are

781
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 6: already after her. There had been this whole like movement

782
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 6: against her even before this, but they lashed onto this

783
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 6: and it became their plausible deniability, and so they started saying, oh,

784
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 6: it's about ethics and games journalism, we got to fix this,

785
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 6: and then all of these other people from outside of

786
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 6: video games lashed onto that. That's where you've got people

787
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 6: like Miley Ianopolis. That's where you've got a lot of

788
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 6: like Breitbart's notability in that era. And I think That's

789
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 6: when a lot of these people in the conservative movement realized, oh,

790
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 6: like this is a perfect seed bed for the future

791
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 6: of conservatism, and the future can grab people.

792
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: Right here now.

793
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 5: You can literally brute force a reality. Is what they learned,

794
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,479
Speaker 5: the things that they claim, and you will still see

795
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 5: people claim these things on the internet. None of these

796
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 5: things are true, none of them are improvable, none of

797
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 5: them are anywhere near provable. There is no review of

798
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 5: Zoe's game that Nathan wrote. Yep, it does not exist,

799
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 5: and they will never show it to you.

800
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: What's insane as well, is there are actual issues in

801
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 2: games like I mean, like I'm not saying what magazine

802
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: I'm talking about or indeed who this was said to,

803
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: but I know multiple different games covers of games magazines

804
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: for certain PC games magazines that were bartered with drugs

805
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: and that where scores were raised to please publishers and

806
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 2: raise to police advertisers.

807
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 3: The actual fucking issue.

808
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 5: Even just sort of the like parasitic relationship game devs,

809
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 5: especially the higher up in management you go, they consider

810
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 5: the games press to just be a pr wing their

811
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 5: same industry. So the idea that we are journalists and

812
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 5: we do not have the same goals as they do,

813
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 5: which is to please developers and help make sure their

814
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 5: game sell. That is considered like really really hostile and

815
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 5: it is something that you have to explain and re

816
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 5: explain over and over again. I don't care if your

817
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 5: game sell as well. Like I'm sorry, I want games

818
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 5: to do well, but I'm not doing pr for you.

819
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 4: That is not what I want to do.

820
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 6: Also, there's already like a lot of these games already

821
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 6: have these massive marketing budgets. Anyway, Yeah, like the press

822
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 6: is not a big needle mover there. But what a

823
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 6: lot of people want the press to be, whether they

824
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 6: are executives or whether they're gamers, is this like mouthpiece

825
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 6: for the industry. It's like going back to you know,

826
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 6: those like law or those court cases against games as

827
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 6: a whole and things like that. They want industry advocates.

828
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 6: They're still stuck in this mindset from like thirty years

829
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 6: ago of like the industry needs defending.

830
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: It's just a little guy.

831
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 5: And it's like no, no, you can't simultaneously be quote

832
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 5: bigger than Hollywood and to just be a little guy.

833
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 5: That makes Yeah, you know, I love video games. I

834
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 5: love the culture of video games. In a lot of ways.

835
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 4: I love.

836
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 5: I think play is a fundamental part of human life

837
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 5: that we all need more of, especially the more bleak it.

838
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 5: If you have imagination, then you can imagine a better world.

839
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: It also feels like we fundamentally got away from the

840
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: thing that games is, which is escape.

841
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

842
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: Like, I know, it's not that I'm ashamed of being

843
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 2: a gamer. I have plenty of other things am ashamed of.

844
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: But it's this sense that like I do this to

845
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 2: try and not like not think about it. I will say, however,

846
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: like Balatro, if anyone knows the Balatro developer, Bilatro developer,

847
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: welcome on Better Offline official endorsement is incredible fucking Blatro.

848
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: I also like got me through like mental health things

849
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: just I was able to. There's an emdr effect, I think.

850
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 2: But nevertheless, these games are meant to be, if not

851
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: a distraction, something you escape into. If it's even if

852
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 2: you're not escaping life. But it's like people people want

853
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 2: them to.

854
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 3: Mean something else. Almost fiction is.

855
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 4: Fiction is transformative.

856
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 5: Like I was thinking, there's a big indie game hit

857
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 5: that is really depressing and a sort of about the

858
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 5: experience of living under La capitalism, mouthwashing it's an indie game,

859
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 5: it's a visual novel.

860
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 4: It's not mechanics heavy, it's very story heavy. But it

861
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 4: became an.

862
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 5: Enormous indie hit with a very big, sort of unexpected

863
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 5: fandom because it describes an experience that people have and

864
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 5: they love feeling like the misery and stress and pain

865
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 5: that they are trying are being told by so many

866
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 5: different forces doesn't exist and doesn't matter. They love being told, Yes,

867
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 5: it does matter. Your personhood does matter. The things you

868
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 5: experience in the world do matter and have significance. Being

869
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 5: able to experience that is something that brings us closer

870
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 5: together as a society and allows us to again just

871
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 5: start to imagine what if the world didn't have to

872
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 5: be like this?

873
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: You know.

874
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 5: That's what all media, all enter forms of entertainment can

875
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 5: give you. And I do feel like by becoming an

876
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 5: industry that is chasing a bigger and bigger number more

877
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 5: than anything else, you do lose sight of that that,

878
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 5: like art can't just be measured in dollars or it

879
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 5: is something that touches you and changes you.

880
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think that the Yeah, the big

881
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 6: issue is that games aren't supposed to be anything, especially

882
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 6: not at this point, like and I'll give you, and

883
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 6: also like there are so many of them. So yes,

884
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 6: last year, almost twenty thousand games came out on Steam

885
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 6: Jesus twenty thousand. And with that in mind, like the

886
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 6: fact that there's this reactionary movement going around saying, oh,

887
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 6: you know, this game can't be this, it can't have

888
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 6: like a black person, it can't portray trans issues, It's like, well,

889
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 6: why does that matter to you?

890
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: Why there are there are nineteen more games over there

891
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: that aren't doing that, thirty years of games which would.

892
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 6: Not Then Yeah, on top of that, you were talking

893
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 6: about this idea of games is escapism. And it's so

894
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 6: funny because this reactionary movement essentially posits that, yes, games

895
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 6: should only be escapism and nothing else. They shouldn't have

896
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 6: quote unquote political topics in them. Trans people or black people.

897
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 6: People have dedicated their lives to fighting a political battle

898
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 6: about games, in effect, shoving their politics into games. That's

899
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 6: all they do anymore. And so they're like, games should

900
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 6: be escapism, no politics, except for all the time.

901
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: On my terms.

902
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,959
Speaker 5: You know, for me, a great level of escapism would

903
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,240
Speaker 5: be imagining a world where I don't have an annoying

904
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 5: conversation with a white person, like you know, like.

905
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 2: That would be that is completely imaginary.

906
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 4: You know, that would be a wonderful escape for me.

907
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 5: But you do when you get down to when you

908
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 5: see one of these viral posts that comes across your

909
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 5: dash about or you know, whatever social media figure you're on,

910
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 5: and they are so upset about a promo image for

911
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 5: a game because the example character they've shown is a

912
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 5: black person, you realize that the escapism that these people

913
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 5: want to experience is an escape from black people, and

914
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 5: it's just they don't want to have to see a

915
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 5: black person. And that is like an inherently political things

916
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 5: to say.

917
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 4: That is an endorsement of white supremacy.

918
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an endorsement of an no state. Yeah, it's it's.

919
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 2: Very fucking frustrating as well, because I don't know, maybe

920
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: they could learn to be in a situation with a

921
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: black person, but they're like, no, no, I couldn't post it.

922
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, there's an option buried in these menus

923
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: that allows me to have trends like features and fuck no, yeah,

924
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: I can't even consider a world where that's an option.

925
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 5: Being given the choice of a They them pronoun is

926
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 5: something that just terrifies them, just like.

927
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: They're YouTube videos. Are these people? Yeah, are reduced to

928
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: like actual tears. How upset they are? Love Yeah? Oh

929
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: it's crazy, I mean I could so.

930
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: So back to aftermath though, on a more positive note,

931
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 2: what are you trying to create with it? I don't

932
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: you don't need to have like a big vision, But

933
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 2: what are you trying to do differently to like Kataku

934
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: for example.

935
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 4: Not destroy our brains and bodies?

936
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: Number one?

937
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 3: Sure?

938
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I also think we want to acknowledge, like and

939
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 5: embrace the both editorial and hard scoops and reporting. That

940
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 5: was not something I think we did very well, like

941
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 5: embracing the duality of that you need news and then

942
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 5: also you need to help people interpret and understand the

943
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 5: cultural impact of this news. Nathan has been doing an

944
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 5: incredible job reporting, like just really fucking killing it. I

945
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 5: currently have two full time jobs, so I've been writing

946
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 5: less than I'd love to. But really my interest is

947
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 5: understanding industry trends and looking at them as sort of

948
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 5: long term research projects, and understanding the way that the

949
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 5: world moves as we understand how money flows and moves.

950
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 5: And I think that those both of these things are

951
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 5: equally important. Essentially, just even though video games tell like

952
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 5: as an industry, people just lie about how how much

953
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 5: money they make and how culturally important they are. They

954
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 5: are now a massive and indelible part of the American

955
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 5: entertainment industry and our economy.

956
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 6: They are mainstream, especially for like you know, gen Z millennials,

957
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 6: like we all grew up playing them. They are as

958
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 6: much a part of the cultural fabric as any film,

959
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 6: as any TV show, as anything else.

960
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that they need to.

961
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: Be covered that way.

962
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 6: And it's so weird to look at like major publications,

963
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 6: major papers having almost nobody dedicated to them, like Washington

964
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 6: Post has.

965
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: One person game Park. And even then Gene doesn't really

966
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: do hard report.

967
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 6: He just does like criticism, which is important, but it's

968
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 6: not the whole thing, Like.

969
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 4: I had a team for that.

970
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: Well something I like about, like you did this one

971
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: about Steve the Steam uses n ai Yeah, and it

972
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 2: was specifically the story is about how actually you know,

973
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 2: won't get through the next Fest Games pod.

974
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 3: Why why would I read your story to you?

975
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 1: Yeah?

976
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 6: So basically, right now, Steam is running this promotional event

977
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 6: called next Vest where there are a ton of demos

978
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 6: everybody like play is getting prominent placement for the demos,

979
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 6: which will in turn people cause people to go check

980
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 6: out their games and maybe buy them. That's really important.

981
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 6: And so this time around, people have been scrolling through

982
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 6: and seeing a lot of AI art and they're like, oh,

983
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 6: that's not good, because that means that a bunch of

984
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 6: like AI slop is potentially crowding out deserving good games

985
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 6: that have been development for a long time, and that

986
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 6: you have a chance of it attaining real success.

987
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: And so.

988
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 6: The thing about that is that, yes, it looks bad.

989
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:28,959
Speaker 6: But then at the same time, Steam has this hyper

990
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 6: complicated algorithm that they've been tuning over the years, and

991
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 6: so they basically tuned it to change the way that

992
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 6: games are seen in the first few days of something

993
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 6: like Nextfest, right, so that you end up seeing like

994
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 6: a random kind of scattering of them in the first

995
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 6: few days. Then it becomes personalized, and so basically that

996
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 6: sorts out the AI garbage because those games people don't

997
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 6: really interact with much. They see them, they move on,

998
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 6: and so like they've built a system that sort of

999
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 6: anticipates AI slop, which is good, but they still have

1000
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 6: this larger problem that I think that you see in

1001
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 6: a lot of industries now in this era of peak content,

1002
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 6: which is that there's tons of good stuff coming out

1003
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 6: on Steam all the time, too much of that for

1004
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 6: most people to like find what they're really looking for.

1005
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 6: And then on top of that, you're also competing with

1006
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 6: all of the old goods stuff which is still on

1007
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 6: Steam correctly goes on sale, has bigger name recognition than

1008
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 6: you do, and so like that's the real battle that

1009
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 6: people need to be fighting, whereas I think looking at

1010
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 6: AI on Steam is like this major issue is tempting,

1011
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 6: and it is to an extent, but it's not kind

1012
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 6: of the core problem.

1013
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: That a lot of developers face.

1014
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: So the reason I brought up this story was to

1015
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: compliment you, because this is exactly why After Moth rocks

1016
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 2: and why I actually think the future of journalism is more. Yeah,

1017
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 2: it's like Batter off line, of course it is, but

1018
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 2: it's things like after Moth as well, Because this isn't

1019
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 2: just a story about games culture, which is the anxiety

1020
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: of rai slop, also the anxiety of a indie games

1021
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 2: not getting the attention they need. It's also an industrial

1022
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: analysis because you've got fucking numbers here. In actual view,

1023
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 2: he counts, and actually because to cover the games industry,

1024
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: it seems like, much like tech, you need true domain expertise,

1025
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 2: but you also need industrial Jason Shryer style and Jason

1026
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: Shryap by the way over at Bloomberg Legend got to

1027
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: get him on the show. It's my fault, Jason.

1028
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 5: So you want I know something amazing about Jason. Yes,

1029
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 5: just one great Jason story that he told me right

1030
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 5: before we left Kataku. I used to sit next to

1031
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 5: him every day, and he told me when he first

1032
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 5: started there, he asked if there was a dress code,

1033
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 5: he said, and his boss told him no, right So,

1034
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 5: to that effect, he wore basketball shorts literally every single day,

1035
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 5: and at his yearly review, his boss came up to

1036
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 5: him and said, Jason, I did not know that I

1037
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 5: had a line for dress code, but I realized that

1038
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 5: my line is, please don't wear basketball shorts literally every day.

1039
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 6: If anyone didn't he encounter this one online at some point,

1040
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 6: I feel like he added some particulars that muddy the

1041
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 6: waters of that story a tiny bit.

1042
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 4: Oh, I see, I see it.

1043
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 5: I just love every time you see Jason tweet something

1044
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 5: that pisses you off. I just love imagining him in

1045
00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 5: basketball shorts.

1046
00:48:59,080 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 4: That's all.

1047
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1048
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: But also I'm remembering if any of the British games

1049
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 2: press are listening to this, we don't. We never dressed that.

1050
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 2: I dressed like I was in like a dirty jeens.

1051
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: And actually dirty genes.

1052
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 3: Now I resist.

1053
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: We just like people dressed like I guess we didn't

1054
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 2: see their legs because it's England as it was cold,

1055
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: but I feel like that that's the difference of the

1056
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: British gaming press.

1057
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 3: I guess they would just look like.

1058
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 5: What Kieran Gillan said is about I love Gillan, He's

1059
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 5: such a sweety pie. He said in what When his

1060
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 5: little manifesto, he wrote like, I don't know, it's like

1061
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 5: twenty years ago.

1062
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: Journalism, he said.

1063
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 3: I love Karen, but I fucking hate it.

1064
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 5: He said something about there were two models of games

1065
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 5: journalism when he was working there, and it was the

1066
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 5: US model, which was a lot like car journalism, which

1067
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 5: is also pretty fraught. And there was the UK model,

1068
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 5: which is a lot more like music journalism, which now

1069
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 5: does not really exist in America anymore. And the US model,

1070
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 5: which was all about stats and statistics, statistics and numbers

1071
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 5: and products and products. That model won out eventually, and

1072
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 5: you can see how much it has went out because

1073
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 5: now it's it's only about toys, like we talk about

1074
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 5: games as if they are toys and.

1075
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: You guys, and that's pretty much it.

1076
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: I remember why it pissed me off because he fucking

1077
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: wroked a PC game which was exactly what you just described.

1078
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 2: That's what he left and made rockets and now and

1079
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 2: now he fucking writes amazing comedy.

1080
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 5: God, the power Fantasy is so fasy and it really good.

1081
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 4: It's great.

1082
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, but no, I was going to say, in

1083
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 6: line with a lot of that and the way that

1084
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 6: I think games journalism kind of you know, continued to

1085
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 6: mature along those lines and mostly considering games to be

1086
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 6: these disposable products, and like you know, a lot of

1087
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 6: sites consider like posting about a trailer to be news.

1088
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 6: The thing that I think Aftermath does that we really

1089
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 6: focus on doing is contextualizing a lot of the news,

1090
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 6: especially the harder news, something that you be layoffs and

1091
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 6: xtualizing it I think with the kind of feeling it deserves,

1092
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 6: something that I think you also do really well with

1093
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,280
Speaker 6: all of your different projects.

1094
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 5: You know, well people people find it very cathartic to

1095
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,359
Speaker 5: have people confirm what they feel about the world, which

1096
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 5: is things are.

1097
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 6: Also sometimes don't yeah with facts, but also sometimes they

1098
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 6: don't recognize how bad things are.

1099
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: They need to be told.

1100
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 6: That was my point in that wbpiece, which I then

1101
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 6: the headline for those who don't know, is just fucked WB.

1102
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 3: And fucked w Babe on the way.

1103
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, literally just fucked WB.

1104
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 6: Like and it goes into all the reasons why they

1105
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 6: deserve to be fucked, because they've been mismanaging their business

1106
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 6: horribly and treating people and their various properties is disposable,

1107
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 6: and like doing it in these ways that are.

1108
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 5: Very avoidable are an expression of the way that the

1109
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 5: tech industry as a whole has changed how employment works

1110
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 5: and changed how companies understand value. And it is disgusting

1111
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 5: to watch it happen in something that's very important to me,

1112
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 5: which is the world of art. Like I was a

1113
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 5: cinema studies major in college. I had these old, hyphalutant

1114
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 5: dreams of being a gallery curator, et cetera, et cetera.

1115
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 5: These things really matter to me, like human expression really

1116
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 5: really matters to me, and they're the wonderful history of

1117
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 5: American cinema is just being flushed on the fucking toilet.

1118
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 2: And it feels like they're doing the same thing in

1119
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 2: games and in tech and everything. Because not to tie

1120
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 2: it back to my own bullshit, but it's it's the

1121
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: Google search thing, it's the Facebook thing, it's the thing

1122
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: that we fell in love with the idea of games.

1123
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 2: I guess it's more what it's more death by a

1124
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 2: thousand cuts with games. Yet sometimes the cuts are larger.

1125
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: But it's like watching like Monolith for example. Monolith also,

1126
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: I like, I swear Modelf had something to do with

1127
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: like free space as well. It was a volition entertainment,

1128
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 2: like we've watched it. It's been this slow burm where

1129
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 2: you'd see these amazing games come out and then the

1130
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 2: studio would just disappear or they dog shit, and it

1131
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 2: seems like it's just this problem of CEOs. It's these

1132
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: executives who have nothing to do with games. They don't

1133
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 2: play games, they wouldn't dare touch these games. They've got

1134
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 2: imported things to do, like go to lunch and write

1135
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: emails or.

1136
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 6: I mean, okay, so actually this is a good example.

1137
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 6: They're CEOs who at least like pretend to or do,

1138
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 6: but they still make the same decisions. Somebody like Phil

1139
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 6: Spencer is a great example of this. He's like the

1140
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 6: gamer CEO's at Microsoft, but he's.

1141
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: Actually like a game.

1142
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 6: Yes, I mean he like his Xbox Live stats were

1143
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 6: like public for a long time. You can see how

1144
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 6: many hundreds of hours he's putting into games.

1145
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: That makes it worse.

1146
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 6: But yeah, exactly it makes is What that suggests is

1147
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 6: that like the problem is that these is not that

1148
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 6: these people are not gamers, right, The problem is the

1149
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 6: structural incentives at a company, being an executive that you

1150
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 6: will still even appreciating the art form cut thousands of

1151
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 6: people loose from their jobs, right, and like make decisions

1152
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 6: that actively harm games and their quality.

1153
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 2: Isn't the problem more so that games are just insanely

1154
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 2: expensive to build? Though the triple A gaming is are

1155
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 2: we not running towards this unsustainable point?

1156
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: It's already unsustainable.

1157
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 5: Well, there was that New York Times article about graphics

1158
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 5: and games that I read a few weeks ago, maybe

1159
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,919
Speaker 5: last month, that was about, like, there is so much

1160
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 5: money being pumped into these the Spider Man games, for

1161
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 5: asn example, realistic one to one fidelity of the world

1162
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 5: we see outside of our window, including physics systems that

1163
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 5: replicate real life physics, right, and there we are at

1164
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 5: a point where that last ten it's like self driven

1165
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 5: cars that last ten percent may never be solved because

1166
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 5: our human brain interprets and processes things so much faster

1167
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 5: than a computer program, and a computer can just in general,

1168
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 5: and we these studios put so much money into creating

1169
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 5: that thing, and players don't notice or care.

1170
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 4: Players literally don't care.

1171
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 6: For Spider Man too in particular, really insane. Yeah, it's

1172
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 6: a good game, but Insomniac, the developer of that game,

1173
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 6: suffered a week a little while ago, and in some

1174
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,839
Speaker 6: of their own conversations about the game, they're like, yeah,

1175
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 6: our budget for this this sequel was three hundred million

1176
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 6: dollars or somewhere there, almost double what the original game costs.

1177
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 6: But we don't think that players actually notice just how

1178
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 6: much better the graphics are. We actually think that they

1179
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 6: like they take either version and be fine with it.

1180
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 6: And so at that point, why are we spending all

1181
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 6: of this money on increasing the fidelity? What what is

1182
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 6: the end that we're trying to achieve here? And meanwhile,

1183
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 6: look at the other wild part of all of us

1184
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 6: to me is that the current like video game Juggernauts

1185
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 6: for gen Z are like Minecraft and Roadblocks. These games

1186
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 6: do not have high fidelity graphics.

1187
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 4: At all ye Roadblocks.

1188
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 5: In fact, it is a kind of disgusting exploitative model

1189
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 5: where they rely on community developers who make games for them.

1190
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, they got child labors and children and children children, and.

1191
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 5: The split is one of the most predatory in the

1192
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 5: industry in terms of how much money Roadblox will make

1193
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 5: off of your game versus how much money you make.

1194
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 2: What you're saying is Roadbox only loses money as well.

1195
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 2: They're horribly unpossible.

1196
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 4: It's just ridiculous.

1197
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 2: I feel like we need to like have a referendum

1198
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 2: on the CEOs on a very basic level. Have put

1199
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: aside all the moral stuff that's very obvious. Let's just

1200
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,879
Speaker 2: be like, you fucking suck at this right.

1201
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 5: No, When we started our own company, what we marveled

1202
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 5: at for a long time was like, no, we don't

1203
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 5: have MBAs, and yes, the money stuff is kind of difficult,

1204
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 5: but actually getting people to visit our website and trust

1205
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 5: our reporting.

1206
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 4: Was extremely easy.

1207
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 5: Like the actual like day to day put blocks on

1208
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 5: the site. Run a business promote ourselves. That's so, so,

1209
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 5: so easy. And there were so many people at TiO

1210
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 5: Media that made so much money that couldn't do things

1211
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 5: like there was an HR lead that couldn't attach. She

1212
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 5: couldn't put an attachment on an email, and she made

1213
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 5: a quarter million of a dollar cordon million of dollars

1214
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 5: a year.

1215
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 4: I hated herself.

1216
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 3: That is insane.

1217
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, it seems like this is being a published author

1218
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 6: and not even making close to that.

1219
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: It's so cool.

1220
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 2: What's insane as well, is it's like this is the

1221
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 2: larger problem. This is I know that someone's going to

1222
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 2: email and me like the problems capitalism. Wow, by the way,

1223
00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 2: if you're one of the PI, I don't know. I'm

1224
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: acting like I have derision, but I love my listeners.

1225
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 2: Like for the most part, it's just I get one

1226
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 2: person and.

1227
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start emailing you like this all the time. Yeah,

1228
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: like actually killy capital I fucking know.

1229
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 2: But it's just this is actually something that really frustrated

1230
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 2: me at a former games publication. I may have been

1231
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 2: where it was just like the people writing were fucking amazing.

1232
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 2: They loved games. I mean I can talk about log

1233
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 2: for example, disappointment on Blue Sky or Steve Hogarty at

1234
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 2: Pieces on Yeah, Will Porter as well, Like Love Games

1235
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 2: was so like it was a real joyous energy to it,

1236
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 2: and then there was just this mandate from above where

1237
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 2: it was just yeah, well we got to make sure

1238
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 2: we sell more issues, so you got to put this

1239
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:38,439
Speaker 2: on the cover.

1240
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: It's never something fucking interesting.

1241
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 2: You get an occasional one, like I did my one

1242
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 2: cover about the third World of Warcraft expansion.

1243
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: That was fun, But.

1244
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 2: It's like the thing the incentives, the people driving the

1245
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 2: incentives are not people that I even understand the customers

1246
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 2: so much. They're just like I need to resemble the

1247
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 2: thing that my boss wants me to and then I

1248
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 2: will be the best at my job, even if fun

1249
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 2: not good at it at all. Like David Zaslav, I

1250
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 2: have a lot of thoughts about what could happen to

1251
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 2: him that I won't be sharing.

1252
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 5: How do I introduce you to my concept of the

1253
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 5: well based system of justice? You got it a deep,

1254
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 5: deep well, okay, and like you just throw them down there.

1255
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 5: I mean, like Samorrow from the Ring, like she lived

1256
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 5: down there. She didn't die right away, right.

1257
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 3: She had a nice time that you know, we'll feed them.

1258
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 5: Sandwiches a little picky basket every once in a while,

1259
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 5: and you can try to get out maybe he'll succeed.

1260
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 4: But disclaimer, this.

1261
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: Is this is all happening in Minecraft and or Ro.

1262
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is all parrot. This is parody. Yes, this

1263
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 2: is parody. But it's just fucking frustrating as well, because

1264
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 2: despite all this frustration and annoyance, we've had some incredible

1265
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 2: fucking games the way she is, like Hades and Hades Too.

1266
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 4: And super Giant, it is an incredible, incredible.

1267
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 6: They're having like a weird dust up about acting and

1268
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 6: not working with like SAG for reasons that they want,

1269
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 6: and I actually super Giant a bit of quick insight,

1270
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 6: I like, because they put up this statement. Basically voice

1271
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 6: actor came out and said that Super Giant was considering

1272
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 6: not renewing with them over like their insistence on having

1273
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 6: a SAG contract. And so then super Giant put out

1274
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 6: a statement saying like, actually, we have some of the

1275
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 6: best protections against AI and things like that in the industry,

1276
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 6: and like we're just not working with SAG for reasons,

1277
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 6: and they did not state those reasons, and SAG.

1278
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 5: Currently is on strike specifically in the video game industry

1279
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 5: over AI protections and voice acting.

1280
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 3: I'm just reading this statement.

1281
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have respected and will continue to respect any

1282
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 2: act in needing to poost work during the ongoing sag

1283
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: aff Aftra video game strike. Well, none of all games

1284
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 2: have ever been subject to the sag Aftra contracts. For

1285
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 2: a variety of reasons. There we go, which means we

1286
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 2: wish the best.

1287
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 6: And so I reached out to Greg Kasavin, who's the

1288
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 6: like creative director over at Super Giant, who I've known

1289
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 6: for a lot of years, and asked that. I was like,

1290
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 6: can you provide any of the reasons, and he was

1291
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 6: basically like no.

1292
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, thank you, man, I appreciate the comment.

1293
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: And it's just it's frustrating because Super Giant, I assume

1294
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 2: makes a ship a ton of money.

1295
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 4: Oh I mean haities was a massive a.

1296
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: Small studio relative to I mean.

1297
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 4: They's not a lot of overhead essentially.

1298
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 2: Saving the money there, where's that going. It's not even

1299
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 2: what the CEO makes more money if they if they

1300
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 2: do that, it's it's well.

1301
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 6: And also it's like it's a real bummer because otherwise

1302
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 6: they've been amazing in terms of like making games the

1303
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 6: right way, like they are very people focused studio I

1304
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 6: interviewed them years ago about like all the ways that

1305
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 6: they like. For example, they have mandatory vacation, so if

1306
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 6: you reach the end of the year and you haven't

1307
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 6: taken your vacation time, you have to just like take

1308
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 6: a month.

1309
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: Off and do that kind of a thing.

1310
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 2: And just to describe for the listeners, you haven't played

1311
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 2: Haydas or Haidi's two, which is coming out next year, probably.

1312
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 4: Isn't early access right now, and you can't.

1313
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 2: Play this game is both mechanically perfect. Haities two, I

1314
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 2: would argue, isn't I think Hades to.

1315
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: Really like Haites?

1316
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 3: I love it?

1317
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: No, I love it, I love you. I love it

1318
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: in that there are some bits that also isn't finished yet. Yeah.

1319
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 2: Nonetheless, the point is these games are mechanically perfect. They

1320
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 2: sound incredible, voice acting is amazing, they look, they feel amazing.

1321
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 2: There are tiny little systems, and on top of that,

1322
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 2: they're incredibly diverse. They prove that you can do diversity

1323
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 2: in this way that's very like a sincere and it

1324
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 2: doesn't feel it.

1325
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 6: Fits the setting, and the setting is like Greek mythology,

1326
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 6: and it's really cool.

1327
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:20,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1328
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, the whole plot of Achilles and Patroclus in Hades

1329
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 5: just melts my heart. It really is affecting. Nathan and

1330
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 5: I are both big fans of the game Pire, which

1331
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 5: is the game that came out right before, which.

1332
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: Is like still the best Super Giant game NBA.

1333
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 5: Jam essentially with Wizards, and then also it's a story

1334
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 5: of sincere revolution that asks you, the player, what it

1335
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 5: would mean to overcome oppression and why you would fight

1336
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 5: for it, and it is really affecting and meaningful storyline.

1337
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 5: One of the most amazing things about Super Giant is

1338
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 5: they have this like bespoke relationship with Darren corr a

1339
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 5: singer songwriter, Oh my music he makes where these games

1340
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 5: drive me to tears.

1341
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: And I love them.

1342
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 2: I actually really want to talk about Daryn Corb real quick.

1343
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 2: So Hades two has a boss against this band of

1344
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 2: Siren and they're all two different metals, like like metal

1345
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 2: adjacent songs.

1346
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: And that's about how much they hate you for killing.

1347
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 2: And how Badjo looks and what they're going to do

1348
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 2: to you, like and these songs are fucking bangas they're great.

1349
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 1: They want they have bloss bets.

1350
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 6: And one also bear in mind too that they had

1351
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 6: to write these songs with the expectation that, because of

1352
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 6: the game's run based structure, that you like do the

1353
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 6: same thing over and over and over. Yeah, but you

1354
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 6: will hear these songs like a hundred times, So they

1355
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 6: got to write something that they know you're not going

1356
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 6: to be irritated by hearing this many times, which to

1357
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 6: itself is this like level of craft is so different

1358
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 6: than just writing a song.

1359
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 5: There's like a little bit of a crossover with like

1360
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 5: musical theater with Durincorb, where the songs are people sing

1361
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 5: in these games when they are called to such a

1362
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 5: high level of emotion, and then they paint that a

1363
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 5: level of emotion also from you, the player, so that

1364
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 5: by the time you get to Sylla and the Sirens

1365
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 5: and your run again, you will be your blood will

1366
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 5: be pumping so hot that you just want to hear

1367
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 5: them burst into some minds And it's fucking great.

1368
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 2: And also that I'm ranting about this, I don't care.

1369
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 2: Your little pigs will slop this up. What's also great

1370
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: about this boss fight is it's three different things you're

1371
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 2: fighting and as you one is the drama, one is

1372
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 2: the guitarist, one as the singer, and if you kill

1373
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 2: off the drama, you no longer hear the drum baby

1374
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 2: or when they do, And it's.

1375
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 4: Like, it's beautiful.

1376
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 2: And the reason I bring this up as well is

1377
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 2: it's proof of what you can do in games and

1378
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 2: with technology when you just fucking think about what the

1379
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 2: medium is. Yeah, and it's so expertly done and it

1380
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 2: shows so much love, and it frustrates me because I

1381
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 2: know we've been quite negative today, but there are so

1382
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 2: many signs that games can be so much better and

1383
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 2: that there are these incredible like Hades two is even

1384
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 2: in early access, has so many bits to it. You're

1385
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 2: just like, wow, not only do you love games, but

1386
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 2: you want this to be cool. You have genuine creative

1387
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: expression that cannot be done anywhere else.

1388
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 5: Yes, in no other form, Like I mean that, this

1389
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 5: is why I talk about Dwarf Fortress like and you're

1390
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 5: constantly it's like, this is a game made by people

1391
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 5: that are clearly just obsessed with Lord of the Rings,

1392
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 5: but they also are obsessed with fantasy and building a

1393
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 5: world and uh, just native narrative experiences, the way that you,

1394
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 5: as a human being create a story inside of your mind.

1395
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you you.

1396
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 5: Have this little group of dwarves, and they all have

1397
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 5: distinct personalities that are all procedurally generated. They all have memories.

1398
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 5: They have all lived in a world that has built

1399
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 5: itself up over you know, in game like two hundred

1400
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 5: fifty in game years, So there is history. When you

1401
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 5: ask your dwarves to engrave carvings into the fortress you

1402
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 5: build inside of a mountain, they will build carvings of

1403
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 5: things that they remember from life, like when your mayor

1404
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 5: got elected, et cetera, et cetera.

1405
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,320
Speaker 1: So as what I'm gonna do before I die, I'm

1406
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: gonna carve Eric.

1407
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 5: Adams in this Why oh God, yes, this carve is

1408
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 5: a my main memory memory.

1409
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 4: Eric Adams.

1410
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 5: But no, I remember I played a game once and

1411
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 5: there was a dwarf child that was just mad all

1412
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 5: the time, and I was like, dwarf child, you can't.

1413
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 5: You can't keep hitting people with an axe like you have.

1414
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 1: What's going on, God, Woke has gone wild?

1415
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 5: Well, it's because after a big orc attack at my fortress,

1416
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 5: a Goblin attack. His father had been in the military

1417
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 5: and his father died, and there weren't enough dwarfs after

1418
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 5: this attack to clean up all the corpses. So this

1419
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 5: dwarf child had to watch his father rode away at

1420
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 5: the floor and that permanently changed his personality. So now

1421
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 5: he's angry almost shiite.

1422
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 3: Within this game Dwarf Fortress.

1423
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think that this is the thing.

1424
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 2: I refuse to be fully nihilistic about this stuff, because

1425
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 2: even with the slop Kings in power, it seems like

1426
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 2: cool shit is still being built. And as we wrap

1427
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 2: updata first, is there anything you're really looking forward to?

1428
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 2: Is there like a game coming out with something very

1429
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 2: recent you've played, You've kind of and it's Avowed.

1430
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:00,760
Speaker 4: I'm playing at to stop.

1431
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 5: Avowed is the new game from Obsidian, the most recent

1432
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 5: game that people.

1433
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 1: Have died for them.

1434
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 4: I mean, they've made tons of incredible.

1435
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: Vegas is.

1436
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 4: I mean, Following New Vegas is just a precious jewel.

1437
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 4: I love that game. It is. It is worth.

1438
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 5: Following New Vegas is worth the three hours I spent

1439
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 5: modding the game so it would not crash when I

1440
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:22,959
Speaker 5: tried to play it on my PC.

1441
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: I so it wasn't an Obsidian game anymore.

1442
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 5: Sorry, but it Avowed is It takes a lot of

1443
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:33,919
Speaker 5: the systems that they developed for the Outer the Outer

1444
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 5: worlds and refines them, and then also you get really

1445
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 5: really excellent character writing all of the time. There's a

1446
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 5: character you meet right away in a vowed named Kai

1447
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 5: who is like a fish person and he's always got

1448
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 5: a little sarcastic quip to say about something, but he's

1449
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 5: also like a deeply empathetic like he has like a

1450
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 5: real tangible personality traits that make me excited to talk

1451
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 5: to him and hear him react to the things that

1452
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 5: I do. And another wonderful thing about this is the

1453
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 5: combat stuff is really really fun. But the choices in

1454
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 5: the quests that you're forced to make, they do not

1455
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 5: present a path to you that will not piss someone off.

1456
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 4: So you have to sit there.

1457
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1458
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 5: Sorry, that's the fate of the smiling man. You just

1459
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 5: have to think to yourself, what are my convictions? And

1460
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 5: that is something that games can really make you confront

1461
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 5: within yourself.

1462
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 4: What do I believe about something?

1463
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 5: And you play as an envoy of an empire, and

1464
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 5: I found that what I have been doing in this

1465
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 5: game is just you know, I met up with the rebels,

1466
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 5: I had the option to kill someone who attempted to

1467
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 5: assassinate me or not. And when I heard that he

1468
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 5: realized that assassinating me wasn't the right choice to and

1469
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 5: then write the right way to defeat the Empire that

1470
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 5: is trying to take over the living lands. I decided

1471
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 5: to forgive him because I don't actually have any beef

1472
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 5: with them, and I don't think the things that the

1473
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 5: Empire are doing in this land me the person me Gita,

1474
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 5: I don't think the things that they are doing their

1475
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 5: attempt at colonizing this beautiful, lush lance gap that is

1476
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 5: fighting against them. I don't think that that is right,

1477
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 5: and so other characters have judged me for this, but

1478
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 5: I decided, you know what, I side with the rebels.

1479
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 5: I want the Umpire to dissolve, and that is how

1480
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 5: I'm going to play this game. That's the way this

1481
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 5: character is going to play this game.

1482
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 3: This is on PC and Xbox.

1483
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:17,320
Speaker 4: Yes, it's fan tactic.

1484
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: That's really good.

1485
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,680
Speaker 3: So it's nice. What about you? What game? So?

1486
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 6: I recently played a demo for a game called skin Deep,

1487
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 6: and so skin Deep is I would describe it as

1488
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 6: a like slapstick stealth immersive sim game. The idea being that,

1489
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 6: like you are somebody who works in a very wacky

1490
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 6: form of insurance where basically you get frozen and stored

1491
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 6: to board ships that have important cargo on them, and

1492
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 6: if somebody breaks into that ship, then they unfreeze you

1493
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:46,839
Speaker 6: and you run around and take care of whoever's on there, okay,

1494
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 6: And it's really it's just really clever. It's one of

1495
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:51,679
Speaker 6: those games that, again it could only be a game,

1496
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 6: so like it thinks about all these things that other

1497
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 6: games of this sort don't. So like your character is

1498
01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:59,719
Speaker 6: barefoot for whatever reason, and so like if there's glass around,

1499
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:01,639
Speaker 6: you can step on the glass and then you can

1500
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 6: like pry it out of your foot and use it

1501
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 6: as a weapon if you want to. But also like

1502
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 6: the combat is so different from what you expect in

1503
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 6: these games, and that like instead of you being this

1504
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 6: master of like martial arts, you have to like briefly

1505
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 6: incapacitate somebody with any number of comedy items, Like you

1506
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:20,720
Speaker 6: can throw a banana peel and they'll slip them all on,

1507
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 6: and then you like go jump on their back, and

1508
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 6: like you're trying to wrestle them into something and they're

1509
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:27,759
Speaker 6: like trying to push you off. You're not like physically

1510
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 6: stronger than them, and so it descends into just like

1511
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 6: lunacy and madness almost every time that you are trying

1512
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 6: to bring somebody down.

1513
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 2: And just to be clear, what platform is this on.

1514
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 2: That's PC, So it's not VR or anything you're not

1515
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 2: doing this with.

1516
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's and it's from this one studio that actually

1517
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 6: they're called Blendo. They've been around for a while. Yeah,

1518
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:49,679
Speaker 6: they're amazing, and they they've always been really smart about

1519
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 6: like integrating cinematic techniques that other video games don't. They

1520
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 6: made this one game forever ago called Thirty Flights of

1521
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 6: Level that relies a lot on like jump cuts, yeah,

1522
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 6: in a first person setting, which feels I think unnatural

1523
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaker 6: to gamers who are used to continuity in a first

1524
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 6: person game.

1525
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 5: The Thirty Flights of Loving is an experience worth having.

1526
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 5: It's a very short, narrative game, and I if you

1527
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 5: want to understand just like how games work, how the

1528
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 5: moving image creates narrative, creates associations. It is very instructive

1529
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 5: and it's also really affecting.

1530
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 1: Yeah cool.

1531
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 6: And so these developers are also really good, surprisingly good

1532
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 6: at not making just like on rail cinematic experiences, but

1533
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 6: also like these really intricate systems. And that's what skin

1534
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 6: Deep is it's this game where so many funny, weird

1535
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 6: things can happen, like you know, and you can you

1536
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 6: can replay levels and figure out all this stuff. Like

1537
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 6: the first time that I played the demo level, I

1538
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 6: nearly like lost, and you know, I sucked at it.

1539
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 6: And the second time I realized, Oh, man, I can

1540
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 6: break the glass on this spaceship and open it to

1541
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 6: the vacuum of space, and so I can go around

1542
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,480
Speaker 6: like wreaking havoc on these guards by just like subjecting

1543
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 6: them to.

1544
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 2: Like a James Bone, like a moonrak Is situation. Yeah, yeah,

1545
01:10:58,439 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 2: that's so beautiful.

1546
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:00,760
Speaker 1: So and that's the thing.

1547
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 2: I really want to leave the listeners here with the censor,

1548
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 2: there's still cool shit happening. Oh yeah, everywhere, and there

1549
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 2: is hope to be had. Geeta, where can people find you?

1550
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 5: Oh, you can find me on Aftermath that site totally.

1551
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 5: I'm exo Exo gossip gita on social media Instagram and

1552
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,639
Speaker 5: Blue Sky basically is where I post at this point.

1553
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 5: But yeah, everything I write will be on Aftermath, So

1554
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 5: look after me there, Nathan.

1555
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 6: Aftermath, do's say as well? And then I'm at Nathan

1556
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 6: Grayson on Blue Sky. I'm glorious curly map on Instagram.

1557
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 6: And then I also for a book called Stream Big

1558
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 6: the Triumphs and Turmoils of Twitch and the starts behind

1559
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 6: the Screen, and you can get that wherever books are sold.

1560
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,519
Speaker 2: Now I'm going to kind of force you all to

1561
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 2: do this. I need you to go to aftermath dot

1562
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 2: site and need you to pay them. I need you

1563
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 2: to buy Nathan's book. Ideally, I need you to go

1564
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 2: and make your friends by it as well, and you

1565
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 2: also subscribe to Aftermath. I say this from the bottom

1566
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:57,600
Speaker 2: of my heart to leave this episode games show them,

1567
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.

1568
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not cutting it.

1569
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 2: Games journalism genuinely made me who I am and like

1570
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 2: people like Will Porter, Steve Hogarty and log of course

1571
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 2: John byThe really changed and even Kieran Gillen, who's become

1572
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 2: more of a friends since I left anyway, And it's

1573
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 2: lovely to have you two here because games journalism is

1574
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 2: very meaningful and I still don't think it's where it

1575
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 2: needs to be, but I think the aftermaths bringing it there.

1576
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 2: You will love me, though, so you know where to

1577
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 2: find my shit. Please keep downloading this show. Please tell

1578
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,120
Speaker 2: people to download it to I need the downloads if

1579
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 2: I don't get them all died, I love.

1580
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 4: You all away in front of my eyes.

1581
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:37,080
Speaker 3: I'm literally dying, but I do love you.

1582
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Better Offline.

1583
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 7: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song

1584
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 7: is Mattasowski. You can check out more of his music

1585
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 7: and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com m A. T.

1586
01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:59,599
Speaker 1: T OsO w s Ki.

1587
01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 7: You can email me at easy at Better offline dot

1588
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:05,800
Speaker 7: com or visit better Offline dot com to find more

1589
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 7: podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I also really

1590
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 7: recommend you go to chat dot Where's youreaed dot at

1591
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 7: to visit the discord, and go to our slash Better

1592
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:15,599
Speaker 7: Offline to check out our reddit.

1593
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:19,640
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a

1594
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:21,040
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media.

1595
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1596
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 4: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1597
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.