1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: The following interview was recorded in person at the twenty 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: twenty four Innocent Network Conference in New Orleans. On March sixth, 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: two thousand and one, in McHenry, Illinois, two masked men, 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: one armed with a twenty two, attempted to rob a 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: Mexican takeout joint, but the owner grabbed a butcher knife 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and his employee followed. As they chased the men out, 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: they caught one of the assailants and removed his mask. 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: The other assailant turned around, ripped off his mask and 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: opened fire, fatally shooting the owner and the surviving employee 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: ran back inside to call the police. The police canvass 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: the area and discovered four young people in a house 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: up the street, including a young woman named Jennifer McMullen. Eventually, 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: she and two of her friends confessed to a role 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: in the robbery homicide. But this is wrongful conviction. Wrongful 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: conviction has always given voice to innocent people in prison, 16 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: and now we're expanding that voice to you. Call us 17 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: at eight three, three, two oh seven four six sixty 18 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: six and tell us how these stories make you feel 19 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: and what you've done to help the cause, even if 20 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,639 Speaker 1: it's something as simple as telling a friend or sharing 21 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: on social media, and you might just hear yourself in 22 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: a future episode. Call us eight three three, two oh 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: seven four six sixty six. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 24 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: Today's story is it's like something out of a Quentin 25 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: Tarantino movie, and the investigation, if you can call it, that, 26 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: is like something out of The Three Stooges or Keystone 27 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: Cops or something much more sinister. First of all, we 28 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: have I don't know why this is first time, but 29 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: for the first time, we have the co director of 30 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: the Illinois Innocence Project, Stephanie Cammell. She's been hiding out 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: from us while some of her colleagues have been on 32 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: the show multiple times. But it's overdue. But I'm really 33 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: honored to have you here. 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us and for profiling 35 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: Jennifer's case. We really appreciate it. 36 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: You go, don't embarrass you, but you're kind of a 37 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: legend in this space, so you know, it's really great 38 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: to have you here, and I'm very lucky and honored 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: to have the person here who lived through this ordeal, 40 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: Jennifer McMullin. Thanks for being here. Welcome to Ronful conviction. 41 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: And I always say I'm so happy you're here, but 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're here because you should have never been 44 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: on this show in the first place. This is this 45 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: case came with instructions. You were only nineteen when this 46 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: happened and the top of what your life was like 47 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: because you were a law abiding, sort of normal person. 48 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: You were born where. 49 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 3: Oh, Libertyville, Illinois. 50 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: Libertyville ALLNOI it sounds very all American, it is. Is 51 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: it like one traffic light like that kind of place. 52 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's a busy small town, but yeah, 53 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 4: it's an amazing place. I was born there and grew 54 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 4: up around Lake Beach with my stepfather and mother, only child, 55 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 4: three older siblings. The eldest is my brother, and then 56 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 4: the other two are sisters. There's ten years difference between 57 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 4: me and the next daughter. So they were all out 58 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 4: and getting married and having families, and I was the oops. 59 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: I came ten years later. 60 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 4: So growing up in my teens, I was the only 61 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 4: one in the house. But yeah, it was a great childhood. 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 4: Never in trouble, was always in sports, softball, soccer, competitive cheer, 63 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 4: and dance. Sports was definitely a passion for me. 64 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: Got it? Okay, so it sounds like a nice childhood. 65 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I had an amazing childhood, amazing parents, siblings, family. 66 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: It was great and quite an athletic resume you have there, 67 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: as well as someone who didn't make the sports teams 68 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: in high school. I'm a little jealous, but you know, 69 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to let that slide. That's why I played 70 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: the guitar and smoked pot instead. But that's a different podcast. 71 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: We're not going to talk about that now. But anyway, Okay, 72 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: so then let's go to this crime. Okay. This was 73 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: on March six of two thousand and one. Two masked 74 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: men attempted to rob a small restaurant in McHenry, Illinois, 75 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: right a Burrito express. The owner, welding a butcher knife, 76 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: and his employee chased the two men out of the restaurant, 77 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: and an ensuing chase, the owner was shot and killed. Jennifer, 78 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: you stumbled onto this scene right, so to speak. I mean, 79 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: you were talk about wrong place, wrong time. Absolutely tell 80 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: us how you came upon this chaotic and terrifying scene 81 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: and then how you eventually got implicated. 82 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: Definitely. 83 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 4: So that day, I remember I had got a call 84 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 4: from one of my friends who needed to find somebody 85 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 4: to borrow a laptop, so I called another friend who 86 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 4: I knew had one. So I went and grabbed my 87 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 4: three code defendants. We headed out to Twin Lakes, Wisconsin. 88 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 4: You know, just young listening to music and join a 89 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 4: car ride. Get to Twin Lakes. We end up finding 90 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 4: out that my friend wasn't allowed to loan out her laptop. 91 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 4: I think we say they are about fifty minutes, you know, 92 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 4: just chit chatting, and then we were on our way, 93 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 4: the four of us again and headed it out to mckenry, Illinois, 94 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 4: where one of my co defendants had a very close 95 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 4: family friend who lived out there. 96 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: Our listeners may remember mckenry, Illinois from the story of 97 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: Mario Kasharo, whose lead detective was a former failed hardware 98 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: store stock boy. Yeah. I know it sounds crazy, but 99 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: it's true. And it's the same prosecutorial team Combs and 100 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: Kanneely who prosecuted Mario three separate times while having more 101 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: evidence supporting an alternative narrative. And we're going to have 102 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: that incredible episode linked in the episode description because Jennifer's 103 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: case bears such a strong resemblance. 104 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 4: As we're going into mckenry, we heard like a lot 105 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 4: of commotion, ambulance squad cars. We ended up going to 106 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 4: a smoke shop dispensary type place. Only one code defendant 107 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 4: went in and the rest of us stayed in the car. 108 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 4: From there we went to another co defendant's friend's house, 109 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 4: which ended up being right in the vicinity of the 110 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 4: Brito Express. 111 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: Jennifer's friends and later co defendants Kenneth Smith, Justin Hoftling, 112 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: and David Collette. Their sole connection to the situation was 113 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: that they arrived at their friend's house near the Burrito 114 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: Express in the aftermath of this robbery turned homicide that 115 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: occurred around seven to twenty pm the same evening. 116 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 2: Two masked men came into the Brito Express. No one 117 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: was in there except the owner of all Presento and 118 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: his employee, at Wardo Pardo, and they were in the 119 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: back and the first mask man had a twenty two 120 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: caliber gun and they were attempting to rob the Brito Express. 121 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: Mister Briseno took the butcher knife and started chasing them, 122 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: with mister Pardo following right behind him. They chased them out. 123 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: Now this is March in northern Illinois. There's ice, it's cold, 124 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: and one of the perpetrators slips on the ice and falls, 125 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 2: and so mister Pardo grabs him, takes off his mask 126 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: so he gets a good look at him and starts 127 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: dragging him back to the restaurant. Mister Briseno, the owner, 128 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: has yelled at a passing car to call the police, 129 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: and the perpetrator starts yelling to his friend because he's 130 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: now been caught. The friend turns around and removes his 131 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 2: mask and starts shooting. He's trying to get him to 132 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 2: let his friend go, and mister Preseno and Pardo are 133 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: dragging him back to the Brito Express. At one point, 134 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: mister Presento gets hit, and so mister Pardo drops the 135 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: perpetrator and runs in and calls the police. By the 136 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: time he comes back out, the two men are gone 137 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: and mister Burzeno is on the ground and has been shot. 138 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: He died a little bit later. Within ten minutes of 139 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: everything starting. The police were there, and mister Pardo spent 140 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: a couple of hours that night with law enforcement, and 141 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: they got composite sketches of each of the suspects that night. 142 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: Pardo also said that the assailant heat caught was wearing 143 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: green leather jacket and police began to canvass the area 144 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: looking for suspects. Meanwhile, Jennifer and her friends were just 145 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: up the hill from the Burrito Express. 146 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 4: Throughout the evening, we were watching out the back window 147 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 4: of that house. We saw detectives putting you know, the 148 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 4: yellow markers on the ground for the different things that 149 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 4: they were finding. I ended up not driving home that 150 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 4: night because I was scared. I called my mother and 151 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 4: told her, you know, something was going on in this area. 152 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 4: I'm gonna go ahead and stay here for the night. 153 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 4: It was the four of us. The mother came home 154 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 4: from work, she worked at a gas station nearby the house. 155 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 4: There was a couple of younger kids there, you know, 156 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 4: and we were just in the house actually watching the 157 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 4: news of the scene of the crime in what was 158 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 4: going on. Of course you're interested, and it's you know, 159 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 4: happening right behind you. And then we all eventually went 160 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 4: to sleep. While we were sleeping, mc henry police were 161 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 4: doing canvassing of the neighborhood and when they had came 162 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 4: to the house, they asked for the people's IDs who 163 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 4: were in the house. I was sleeping and they were 164 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 4: given to my id out of my purse. 165 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: As she said, they canvassed the neighborhood and had all 166 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: the different identification and so Jennifer I think, was questioned 167 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 2: a couple of different times and obviously told them they 168 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: knew nothing about this. And what we've learned later is 169 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: they seemed to zero in on her friend, her co defendant, 170 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: Ken Smith, and I've heard that they thought he may 171 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: have gotten away with something else, another crime. He hadn't 172 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: really been in trouble before, and so I think it 173 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: just seemed like all of a sudden, they thought he's 174 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: right here behind the Burrito Express, must have done this. 175 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: It was later discovered that mister Pardo had viewed a 176 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: photo array that contained photos of Jennifer's co defendants, but 177 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: did not identify them. It's believed that he was deported 178 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 1: and Jennifer and her friends remained the focus of the investigation. 179 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: The police theory was that Jennifer and perhaps David Collette, 180 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: drove Ken Smith and Justin Hoftling to the Burrito Express 181 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: before the crime, and may or may not have known 182 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: what the assailants had planned, and they brought Jennifer in 183 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: on May eleventh, two thousand and one to take a polygraph. 184 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 3: I went in willingly. 185 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 4: It was to mckenry County Detectives, a round the beach 186 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 4: police officer who was actually a friend of the family 187 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 4: and family yes, and was accompanying me in the situation, 188 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 4: assuring my mother they just want to talk to her. 189 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: You know, you don't need a lawyer. Don't worry. 190 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 2: Her mother specifically asked if she needed to get her 191 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 2: a lawyer. Yes, you're told that if you have nothing 192 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: to hide, why would you need a lawyer, And that 193 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: is so incorrect. Make sure that you have representation as 194 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: you're trying to be helpful to the police. 195 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: But there was another factor at play here. 196 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 4: I was diagnosed with bipolar and manic depression, so I 197 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 4: was on medication. Before I went into the light detective test, 198 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 4: I was given a dose of one of my medications, 199 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 4: which was clanipin, So clanopin is a sleep aid. 200 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: After that or she had the light detector test, there 201 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: were only four questions asked. After that, they come out 202 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 2: and say a couple answers were highly suspicious, and so 203 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 2: then they start trying to what really happened? What really happened? 204 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: They didn't believe her. They didn't believe her. 205 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: By two thousand and one, polygraphs were no longer admissible 206 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: in court. And when law enforcement tells the subject that 207 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: they failed or their answers were suspicious, this serves to 208 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: arm interrogators with a pseudo scientific reason why their subjects 209 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: denials just cannot be believed. 210 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 4: We get back to mckenry County Police Department. They take 211 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 4: me into almost like a boardroom with long tables, big 212 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 4: screen TV. They pop in a VHS and it was 213 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 4: footage of the smoke shop, which was called Cloud nine. 214 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 3: And the footage did show. 215 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 4: One of my co defendants in their shopping around, which 216 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: did happen that night We did go to the smoke shop. 217 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 4: So they asked me to identify who was on the tape. 218 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: I did so. 219 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,599 Speaker 1: It was David Collette on video at seven thirty eight pm. Importantly, 220 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: they were all still together at Jennifer's ordeal continued. 221 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 4: Another detective comes in that that I hadn't met that 222 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 4: day yet, So it becomes three detectives in myself in. 223 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: The room, multiple mail, law enforcement officers, no parent, no attorney, nothing, and. 224 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 4: He basically just started saying, this is what we want 225 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 4: you to say, tell us what we want to hear, 226 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 4: and you can go home. We know you didn't have 227 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 4: anything to do with it. Just give us this name 228 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 4: and all this can be done and over with. And 229 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 4: as I keep saying, we didn't commit this crime, I 230 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 4: don't know you know what you want me to say. 231 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 4: I don't know what you're talking about, Like this isn't right, 232 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 4: you know. Sorry. 233 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: At any time, you know, an attorney could have said 234 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: this is not going to go on anymore. She kept 235 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: asking to go home and thought she was going to 236 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: go home, and they kept saying, oh, we will take 237 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: you home, you know, until it gets longer and longer again. 238 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: Social science study shows people's defenses start to break down 239 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: after about an hour and a half. 240 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 4: This went on for over fourteen hours, as they kept drilling, 241 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 4: starting and stopping recording. Just tell us what we want 242 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 4: to hear and you can go. I just remember being 243 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 4: in a daze from the medication, not understanding, just wanting 244 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 4: it to be over with. 245 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: Oftentimes people they'll say anything just to get out of 246 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: the situation, thinking well, we'll get out of the situation, 247 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 2: and then they'll find out the evidence and it'll show 248 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: that I didn't do it. You know, they'll go get 249 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: the actual perpetrators, right. 250 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 3: So eventually. 251 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 4: One of them sat with like a yellow legal pad 252 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 4: and he would write down descriptions of things that happened 253 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 4: in the crime. Even drew a picture of like the 254 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 4: gun that was used and kind of like a description 255 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 4: of it. And he said, if there's anything at you 256 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 4: mess up on, you can glance over here at this 257 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 4: legal tablet. And every time I didn't get something great, 258 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 4: you would shut off the camera recording and just start screaming. 259 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 3: And then I just couldn't take any more and told 260 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 3: them what they wanted to hear, just that we can 261 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 3: be over with. I just wanted to go home. 262 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this 263 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early 264 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus 265 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. In a videotape statement that ended around 266 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: ten ten pm, Jennifer said that she saw police activity 267 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: in the area, then lent her card to her three friends. 268 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: Then they returned and admitted to the shooting. But why 269 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: would there be police activity before the alleged assailants even 270 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: left to commit the crime that makes absolutely no sense. 271 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: There are two different videotape interrogations. In the first one, 272 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: she starts breaking down and giving them information, but again 273 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: highly unreliable. They take a break and while they said 274 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: they did not give her medication until after the second interrogation, 275 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: the video stops recording, but on the audio you hear 276 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: a man say, do you want coffee with your medication? 277 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: And then the false confession from that first videotape wasn't 278 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 2: really accurate, So then they do another videotape and they 279 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: get the confession that ends up being used at her trial, 280 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: which is more accurate. But again none of the withheld 281 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: facts from the crime. Did she know, did her code 282 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: defendants know? Had no idea. 283 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: Often police will withhold information from the public in order 284 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: to better assess the credibility of witnesses. In this case, 285 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: there were two details well, that mister Persseno had a 286 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: head injury that was consistent with being histol whipped, and 287 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: two that mister Persseno had yelled to a passing car 288 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: to call nine one one. Jennifer mentioned neither. Instead, she 289 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: placed herself in the car, alleging that all three of 290 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: her co defendants had participated, and that only one wore 291 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: a mask, directly contradicting the known facts of the crime. 292 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 4: I remember falling asleep in the corner of the interrogation room. 293 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 4: I remember a blanket being thrown on me. The next morning, 294 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: I woke up in a holding cell. I woke up 295 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 4: to a detective throwing a bag of McDonald's breakfast at 296 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 4: me and saying, you need to get up. 297 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 3: We're charging you with first degree murder. 298 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: Wow. 299 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 4: They shackled me, put me in a squad car, and 300 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 4: took me to mckenry County Jail. 301 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: The following day, they arrested fifteen year old Justin Hoftling, 302 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: who informed the police that he was on hallucinogenic drugs, 303 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: but they interrogated him anyway. The buck I'm sorry. He 304 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: maintained his innocence, but changed his story when he was 305 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: told a lie that all three of his friends, not 306 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 1: just Jennifer, had made incriminating statements and that if he 307 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: did too, he could make a deal. He said that 308 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: Jennifer drove him and Smith to the Burrito Express and 309 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: they committed the robbery homicide. 310 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: Her co defendant, who was fifteen, gave a very unreliable 311 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: confession didn't have any of the facts correct. When they 312 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 2: gave him choices of the gun, he chose an automatic, 313 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: not a twenty deal. 314 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 5: Yes. 315 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was under the influence of drugs too during 316 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 2: his false confession. 317 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: Justin Hoftling was facing potentially sixty seven years in prison, 318 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: and so he accepted a twenty year sentence. David Colette 319 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: accepted five years to testify that Jennifer drove all three 320 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: of them to the Burrito Express where he split from 321 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: Ken and Justin and did not participate. But before anyone 322 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: appeared in court, the mother of an alternate suspect came 323 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: forward and pointed the finger at her own daughter. 324 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: Was never disclosed to Jennifer's trial council was there was 325 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 2: an alternate suspect group that had repeatedly confessed to family 326 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: and friends of committing this crime. In November of two 327 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: thousand and one, the mom called in to the police 328 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 2: and she says, my daughter told me you have the 329 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: wrong people. That her daughter was driving in the car 330 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 2: and saw her friends run into the Brito Express and 331 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 2: then saw them run out, and the owner yelled at 332 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 2: her to call the police. 333 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: Wow. 334 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 2: She also said that her daughter saw the person that 335 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: was doing the shooting come back and hit mister Bresento 336 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 2: in the head with the butt of the gun to 337 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: knock him over to let go of his friend. That's 338 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 2: two pieces of information about the crime that they withheld 339 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 2: from the public to corroborate confessions. 340 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: The daughter's name is Suzanne de Chico and her friend's 341 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: names are Russell Levon and Adam Hyland. 342 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 2: The alternate suspect was at her mom and stepdad's home, 343 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: which was also close to the Brito Express And because 344 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: it was a bloody struggle, the alternate suspect got cut 345 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 2: up on his shins from the ice, but also his 346 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: hand got a cut from the knife, and they end 347 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 2: up burning their clothes because there's so much blood. And 348 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: eight weeks to ten weeks later they took her card 349 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: over the board in Wisconsin and torched the car because 350 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: they couldn't get the blood out from the back seat 351 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 2: of the car. Jennifer's car. In twenty twenty still, when 352 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 2: we were going in for DNA testing, it was still 353 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: impounded by the police. They had it in their custody, 354 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 2: you know. Nineteen years later they never found anything in 355 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: the car because it wasn't nothing was in there right. 356 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: So you have this mother calling in. She identifies the 357 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 2: two friends of her daughter's and her daughter her daughter 358 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: has confessed to other. 359 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: People, and the police didn't just ignore this tip. 360 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 2: When this mother called in, she also said they stole 361 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 2: my husband's gun. Then they tested that gun and found 362 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: that the bullet that was taken from mister Zunno's body 363 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 2: matched five of the six grooves, but they couldn't say 364 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: it definitively matched, but it had a crack in the handle, 365 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: which her daughter talked about him hitting mister Bresento in 366 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: the forehead with the butt of the gun to get 367 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: him to let go of his front. 368 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: When it comes to ballistics testing, guns can only be 369 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: definitively ruled out not matched, to the exclusion of all 370 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: of the guns on the planet. But with the cracked 371 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: handle and matching mother daughter confessions, it appears that this 372 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: crime basically solved itself. Even still, police and prosecutors hid 373 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: this information from the defense and put Justin Hoffling and 374 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: David Collette on the stand of Jennifer's trial in March 375 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: two thousand and two. But theirs and Jennifer's stories were 376 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: inconsistent with each other, as well as inconsistent with reality, 377 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: which naturally raised doubts. 378 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 4: So it was last day of the trial, the jury 379 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 4: was arguing they couldn't come to a decision. The judge 380 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 4: I had Arnold stated to the jury that they had 381 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 4: to hurry up and come up with the decision, and 382 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 4: the jury was brought in and I was found guilty. 383 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: You see on the sentencing documents stating that she did 384 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 2: not participate in the planning or carrying out of this, 385 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: that she wasn't a threat to society, that she'd never 386 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: been in trouble with the law, but because she drove them, 387 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: he sentenced her harshly to twenty seven years in prison. 388 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: And the crazy irony is that the people that she 389 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: drove also had nothing to do with it. 390 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, although of course law enforcement said her friends 391 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: committed this crime. 392 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,479 Speaker 1: Even if that were true, that would mean that if 393 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: you at home speaking to everybody who's listening for me, 394 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: or you were just sitting in our car and a 395 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: couple of friends come up and go, hey, can I 396 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: get a ride down the block, and you give them 397 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: a ride, not knowing that they may have done anything, 398 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: you can now be convicted a sense to twenty seven 399 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: years in prison. 400 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 4: Twenty seven years, straight through, no good days, no credit 401 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 4: for school, no contracts for good time, straight through. 402 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: I hope it's making everybody else's angry as it makes me, 403 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: because it's absurd. It's actually absurd. But the other thing 404 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: about this that I got to go back to is 405 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: the fact that they had to have known because of 406 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: this conscientious mom. There should be so much credibility. 407 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 5: In that phone call. Yes, and she had the accurate information, Yes, 408 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 5: but Jennifer didn't right and her code events confession was 409 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 5: wrong in different ways exactly. 410 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: So the jury comes back and finds you guilty. 411 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 4: Yes, as he read the verdict, I remember watching the 412 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 4: judge like everything was in slow motion, and I turned 413 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 4: around and looked at my mom, and I. 414 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 3: Just saw fum and disbelief. 415 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 4: And then they took me away. Being in prison and 416 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 4: being innocent of the crime that you're convicted of. One 417 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 4: time I told somebody, I've never felt so alone around 418 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 4: so many people. When you go through something like this, 419 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 4: it's like you go through stages like, Okay, I know 420 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 4: I'm wrongfully convicted, but at nineteen, they're sending me to 421 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 4: an adult max women's facility. I have to prepare myself 422 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 4: for this. You finally get there and you're like, Okay, 423 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 4: I'm here. I don't know what's going on. I know 424 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 4: that I'm innocent. Now I have to take this next step, 425 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 4: this next stage, and the stages you went through before that, 426 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 4: you never heal from any of it because you're just 427 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 4: facing the next one, facing the next. 428 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 3: One, trying to get through every day, trying to get 429 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 3: you know, and. 430 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 4: It's all on you to figure out what you're going 431 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 4: to do every day to help yourself get through it. Programs, 432 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 4: different things that you can do to stay sane. 433 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: While Jennifer was Brave in prison, the evidence about the 434 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: alternate suspect was coming out during Ken Smith's first trial, 435 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: and her appellate council used that evidence, albeit unsuccessfully. 436 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: So Jennifer had been represented up to a point, and 437 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 2: then her case was basically dormant, but all along, her 438 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 2: co defendant, Ken Smith, who they alleged was the actual shooter, 439 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 2: was tried by McHenry County three different times. As we 440 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: go in and litigate cases, defense attorneys and prosecutors are 441 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: making motions to bring stuff in, keep stuff out. His 442 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 2: convictions kept getting overturned by the appellate court immediately because 443 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 2: evidence kept being left out. 444 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: Importantly, the ballistics testing for Suzanne to Chico's step father's 445 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber rifle came to light, as well as 446 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: even more confessions from Suzanne to Chico. 447 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: She was in trouble often with the law. They knew her. 448 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: They were talking to her about something else, and she 449 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: told two different police officers about this and they didn't 450 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: take her seriously. They said she was bragging and trying 451 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: to get street cred. 452 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: And it appears that Justin Hoftling also had a guilty conscience. 453 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: Yes, he wrote Jennifer four months later apologizing for lying 454 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: he wouldn't testify against her co defendant Ken Smith in 455 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 2: his first trial. That trial got overturned. They go to 456 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 2: retry him again in the second trial. He gets on 457 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 2: the stand and gives his false confession. On cross examination, 458 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 2: he admits that he just lied, that Ken didn't do this. 459 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: They didn't do this, but he had to stick with 460 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 2: his false confession or they were going to revoke his 461 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: FLEA deal. They then prosecute him for perjury and he 462 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 2: gets five and a half more years. 463 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: The judge also blocked any evidence implicating the alternate suspects, 464 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: even though Adam Hyland had allegedly confessed to his roommate 465 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: and to others. 466 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 2: And the roommate said, you need to talk to an 467 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,239 Speaker 2: attorney and took him to see a defense attorney, and 468 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 2: he told the defense attorney, with his roommate sitting there, 469 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: me and my friend did this. We were trying to 470 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 2: rob the Brito Express. And the defense attorney told him 471 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: to be quiet, don't say anything. They already have other 472 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 2: people for this crime. 473 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: How do we know all that? 474 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 2: Well, in her co defendant's third trial, the roommate got 475 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 2: on the stand and under oath testified to that. 476 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: However, at Smith's third trial in twenty twelve, once again 477 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: amount of evidence corroborating the alternate suspects was not admitted. 478 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: But even with that, it's still surprising that the jury 479 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: once again convicted and sent Ken away for sixty seven years. 480 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: When law enforcement just too kind to say they botch 481 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: it when they really cover it up for the actual perpetrators. 482 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: That means our tax dollars are paying these people to 483 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: work in service of the actual people who committed these crimes. 484 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: Yes, well, and we know in this case that these 485 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: alternate suspects have gone on to commit multiple crimes. McHenry 486 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: has prosecuted them over and over and in something out 487 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: of a movie that you couldn't script. When we went 488 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 2: into ru the DNA motion, the alternate suspect, who were 489 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: pretty certain was the shooter, was being arraigned on drug 490 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 2: induced homicide charges same day in the same court. 491 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: And that homicide happened after that. 492 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 2: Oh this was twenty twenty. We're in there, but they've 493 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: prosecuted him over and over for multiple crimes. He's been 494 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: in and out of prison, as has the other alternate suspect. 495 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: Right, had they done even a fraction of their jobs, 496 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: these other people who were harmed or killed by these 497 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: two guys would have never met those fates. Right, And 498 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: the PRESENTO family, the part of family, is deprived of 499 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: justice as well. 500 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, they do not know all of the new evidence 501 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: that we have, and so they only know what they're told. 502 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: And the state's attorney and the prosecutors are certain that 503 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: they still got the right people despite her co defendants exoneration, 504 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: and so you know, they think that we're trying to 505 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: just pin it on someone else. I mean, you know, 506 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 2: they which is too bad. You know, the DNA testing 507 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: that we did in twenty twenty one of the crime 508 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: scene evidence, the knife, the clothing. Of course, we all 509 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 2: know Jennifer's going to be excluded, but all three co 510 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: defendants all excluded, and you know, there was that close 511 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 2: tussle and they're dragging him the knife. But there's one 512 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: unknown male DNA that is in there that has not 513 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 2: been compared to the alternate suspect standards. They won't always see. 514 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: That time and again. Yeah, so then how did you 515 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: end up connecting with the Illinois ANISIS project. 516 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 4: I found a paralegal out of Lincoln, Illinois by the 517 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 4: name of Fonda Robbins, so I contacted her. I sent 518 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 4: her paperwork copies of everything I had, which I had 519 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 4: done multiple times, you know, to different pro bono lawyers, 520 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 4: different states. I went through years and years of doing that, 521 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 4: and finally Fonda Robbins contacted me and I got blessed 522 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 4: with the contact information to mister John Hanlin. 523 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: He was our executive director. He's still working with us 524 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: on cases, but he retired from the executive director role. 525 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 4: Some months had went by, and all of a sudden, 526 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 4: I got a call to go up to the visiting 527 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 4: room which was a surprise to me. My visits with 528 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 4: family were always planned because they live so far away. 529 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 4: So I get up there, go through the whole strip 530 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 4: search situation, get in there, and this man comes around 531 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 4: the corner and he says, Jennifer, my name is John Hanlin, 532 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 4: and I worked with the Illinois Innocence Project. We then 533 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 4: went into a private room and as I turned the corner, 534 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 4: I want to say, there was about six or seven 535 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 4: people there, including students, supporters, and other attorneys there just 536 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 4: to listen and to help. 537 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: Finally, John started on her case and I joined the 538 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: project about a year and a half later, and he 539 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: brought me on to Jennifer's case and turn it over 540 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 2: to me. So I started in twenty nineteen on her case. 541 00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you got busy. 542 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 2: We did, and you know, interestingly, we filed that DNA 543 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 2: motion and actually were in court same day with the 544 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: alternate suspect argued it right the day before the courts 545 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 2: shut down with COVID to get evidence shipped out for 546 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 2: DNA testing. So we get the DNA results April twenty 547 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: twenty one, and that's the point where the state comes 548 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: and offers Jennifer a plea deal. 549 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: What did that look like. 550 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: We expected that she would be exonerated, that they would say, look, 551 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: we got it wrong, she needs to be released, and 552 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: they said, no, we got it right. With Ken three 553 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: juries convicted him. It didn't matter that they kept not 554 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 2: hearing all the evidence, and so they said, but she's 555 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: already spent way too long in prison. Even if she's 556 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: guilty for what you know she was convicted of, it's 557 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: been way too long. It was a harsh sentence. So 558 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: if she will plead guilty to armed violence, which again 559 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 2: she never participated in the crime, we'll let her out 560 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 2: for time served. But if she resumes her post conviction 561 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: litigation to prove her innocence, we will revoke her plea 562 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: deal and she will be returned to prison, even though 563 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: they've said she's already spent way too long in prison, 564 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: and so she had this hard decision. So we told her, 565 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 2: you can either take this deal and get out immediately, 566 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: but you're going to have this Class X felony of 567 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 2: armed violence on your record, or we're going to keep 568 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: representing you and will file your successive post conviction petition 569 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: and litigate your innocence. But you're going to be sitting 570 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: in prison for at least another few years. 571 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: It's like a Sophie's choice. Yeah, right. 572 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 4: So I lost my mom eight years into my incarceration. 573 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 4: I was actually released on her birthday. A big part 574 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 4: of me taking the plea was being home to help 575 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 4: my family. I had already saw my mother in a 576 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 4: casket shackled from head to toe. About six years ago, 577 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 4: my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's dementia, and I wanted 578 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 4: to make it home and for him to see me 579 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 4: home before he didn't know. 580 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: Who it was. 581 00:31:58,560 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 3: So it was so thankful for that. 582 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 4: Going to court that day was it was a hard decision. 583 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: You know. 584 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 3: At first, when I gave my. 585 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 4: False confession, people would say, well, why would you do 586 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 4: that if you really didn't commit this crime. You don't 587 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 4: know what it feels like until you're going through it. 588 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 4: And even now they said, well, why would you plead 589 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 4: guilty to that charge if you're innocent, if you didn't 590 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 4: commit this crime. Again, you don't know what it feels like. 591 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 4: But going to court that day was it was hard 592 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 4: at having to be guilty to something I didn't do. 593 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, as they're reading. 594 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 4: You know the description of the crime and what went on, 595 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 4: and my soul called roll. I just stood there and cried, 596 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 4: you know, standing next to my lawyers. 597 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: You accept this play. It's a bittersweet, obviously, but you're 598 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: calling home. 599 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 4: When I left from mckenry County, I was nineteen years old, 600 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 4: going to prison, coming back to mckenry to get released, 601 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 4: I was almost forty, and as I walked into the 602 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 4: bullpins and entering, you know, the county jail, I had 603 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: officers who became sergeants and lieutenants throughout the years that 604 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 4: I was, you know, incarcerated, and they said, finally the 605 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 4: truth is coming out and you guys are going home. 606 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 4: Everybody all these years has known the truth, and you know, 607 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 4: has known that you guys, you didn't commit this crime. 608 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: I mean, we obviously wanted to see the day when 609 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: the full exoneration comes to pass. 610 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 2: Our only option now is clemency, which we filed and 611 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 2: presented a clemency petition to the Prisoner Review Board in 612 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: January on her behalf. Because that's not a legal proceeding. 613 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 2: That is Jennifer's only way to be exonerated. 614 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: A pardon, yes, and you ritually deserve one. So can 615 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: people write somewhere. 616 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: Write to Governor Pritzker, because we have, as I said, 617 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: presented her clemency petition to the Prisoner Review Board and 618 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 2: they will be making a recommendation, but he's the one 619 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: who ultimately will make that decision. 620 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: So we'll have like a sample letter in the episode description. 621 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: Will make it easy for you. I know it sounds 622 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: like what do I write? What do I write? Too, 623 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: We're going to make it easy. Go to the episode 624 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: description and we'll have everything you need to write a letter. 625 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: And with that, now we turn to my favorite part 626 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: of the show, which is called closing arguments, and it 627 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: works like this. First of all, I thank you both 628 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: once again, and I now have the privilege of just 629 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: listening to anything else you want to say. 630 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: First of all, just I want to thank you so 631 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 2: much Jason for asking us here and highlighting Jennifer's story. 632 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 2: You know, it's a privilege for us to get to 633 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: share her story. You know, one thing I'd like to 634 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 2: say is when these wrongful convictions happen. You know, as 635 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 2: we take on these cases, we're very cognizant of the 636 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 2: fact that you have someone who is a victim of 637 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: a crime. Before we take on a case, we do 638 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: so much investigation and testing to make sure because what 639 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 2: happens when someone's wrongfully convicted, You now have another victim 640 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: of a crime, and the original victim never got true 641 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 2: justice because the real perpetrators are still out there and 642 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 2: often committing other crimes. And so it's really important that 643 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 2: we represent these people that are wrongfully convicted, and I 644 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 2: want victims of crimes to understand that's what we're doing. 645 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 2: We are not trying to get perpetrators out of jail. 646 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 5: She was a. 647 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 2: Victim herself and we want justice, and real justice is 648 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: getting the true perpetrators in crime and getting innocent people 649 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 2: out of prison. 650 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 4: Jennifer, it's an honor to be here. I want to 651 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 4: thank everybody tremendously for the work that you do, all 652 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 4: the innocence projects around the world, because if it wasn't. 653 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 3: For you guys, we wouldn't be here. And all the 654 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 3: hard work that you do. 655 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 4: Been a long journey, good days, bad days, but I'm 656 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 4: here taking it one day at a time, and I 657 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 4: just appreciate life so much more. And if there was 658 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 4: one thing that I could tell everybody's it can happen 659 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 4: to anybody, and it happens more than people know I 660 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 4: met people every day, you know, where different things went 661 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 4: on in their case and they just didn't have the 662 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 4: strength to fight, you know. But I knew that I 663 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 4: had to keep on fighting. Another big thing is know 664 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 4: your rights when it comes to interrogations. Lawyers, Miranda wrights, you. 665 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 3: Know, get the knowledge behind it. 666 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 4: I know that if I knew and I understood at 667 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 4: a young age, I don't think that they would. 668 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: Have went that far. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. 669 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for 670 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early by subscribing to Lava for 671 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our 672 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as 673 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. 674 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time 675 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us 676 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and 677 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram 678 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of 679 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal company number 680 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: one