1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 2: She was a trailblazer for better or worse, a criminal trailblazer, 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 2: but what she did was exceptional. Like I mean, nobody 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: else was doing this. 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 7 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 13 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. We hear a lot about 15 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: gunslingers and outlaws in the American West, and those stories 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: are mostly about men, but there were female outlaws too, 17 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 1: like Bell Starr, probably the most famous of them all. 18 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: Her murder was a mystery, but her life was extraordinary. 19 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: Author Dane Hucklebridge tells me about Bell and his book 20 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: Queen of All Mayhem. I have to confess, you know, 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: I've never read a lot of Westerns, and now I 22 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: have several friends who have come out with books Brian 23 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: Burrow with the Gunslinger Book, I've had. I feel like 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: there's a slew of friends of mine who have come 25 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: out with these Western books, and so I have not 26 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: read yet one that's centered on a woman. And Bell 27 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: seems like the woman of all women in the eighteen hundreds, 28 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: in the you know, American Frontier. 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: Here, I would definitely say so. I mean, that's what 30 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: makes her stories so compelling. And I think ultimately when 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: you take a step back and look at her life, 32 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: that was I think, in a way with Letter toward 33 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: a life of crime because she was growing up in 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: the West, the frontier, you know, kind of the edge 35 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: of the South in the eighteen hundreds, and you know, 36 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 2: understandably she felt very constrained by sort of the norms 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: of the time, even the laws at the time. She 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: could not achieve the kind of liberty and independence I 39 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: think as a woman at that time in the wild 40 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: West through legal means, even the law was kind of prohibitive. 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: And I think that's what that was part of the allure, 42 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 2: part of what broader towards being an outlaw and a gangster. 43 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: Is she could play by her own rules. And I 44 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: think that's what makes her such a such an interesting 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: and such a compelling character, because at many times in 46 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: fiction and nonfiction, you know, these great American American personalities, 47 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: you know, there's something that sort of draws them towards 48 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: this unusual life. And I think when you talk about 49 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 2: criminal figures, you know, mafia boss's, drug lords, organized criminals, whatever, thiefs, outlaws, 50 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: whatever you want to say, that oftentimes there is there 51 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 2: is sort of a draw. In her case, I think 52 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 2: that was it. You know, she she very easy, and 53 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: she didn't come from a from necessarily like a poor, 54 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 2: underprivileged family, uneducated family like she She came from a 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: pretty respectable family. She was she was educated. You know, 56 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: she very easily could have slipped into the role of 57 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: kind of a Southern bell and kept house and hosted 58 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: parties and just been kind of kind of a decorative 59 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: a decorative object. And she she wanted none of that. 60 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: You know, she wanted to chase her own destiny, carb 61 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: her own path, and that's in part what let her 62 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: towards this really wild when when you get the whole 63 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: really wild outlaw life and also just even more directly, 64 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: I just think she loved it. Like I think she 65 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: was a bit of an adrenaline junkie. When you look 66 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: at how she lived her life and the type of 67 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: crime she committed and the people she was attracted to, 68 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: I mean, she her whole life is just basically running 69 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: with bad characters, and most of them, including herself, almost 70 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: everyone involved. I mean, the amount of violence is unreal. 71 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: And for a long time I thought the wild West, 72 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: maybe it was like a little bit exaggerated. Maybe it 73 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: wasn't quite as much as you know, the spaghetti westerns 74 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: or you know, classic cowboy movies led me to believe. 75 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: But it was tremendously violent. And the proof is kind 76 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: of the pudding. Almost almost every man in her life 77 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: ended up dying in a gunfight. I don't think she 78 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: would have had it any other way. That kind of 79 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 2: the outlaw life was her path to liberty, individuals and freedom, 80 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: all the things that were kind of denied to her 81 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: at that time. 82 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: What I love about this kind of nonfiction is the 83 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: excitement that you can draw because you have all of 84 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: these great sources, and you know, you say, Belle felt 85 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: the adrenaline. I think that you can feel that through 86 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: your book, but also I think it does deliver important messages. 87 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: I'm a history geek, so I want to jump into 88 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: kind of chronologically where we put Bell and where we 89 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 1: put the United States. But also what I loved is 90 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: is I really want to explore the role of women 91 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: and how would you be independent in this time period. 92 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: You could be an outlaw because of where she is, 93 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: but the cities, you know, we're I wrote a book 94 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: that was set on the East Coast in the mid 95 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, and the women were independent by becoming factory workers, 96 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: so you know. But I also know it gets so 97 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: much more rugged and rough the further west you go. 98 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: So if you can place us wherever, you want to 99 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: start with Bell's life so we understand her, if you 100 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: can also place us and where we are in the 101 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: United States in that time. 102 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: Period, definitely. Bell Starr was born in eighteen forty eight, 103 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: which was, as I talk about in the book, a 104 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 2: pretty tumultuous time in American history. There are huge waves 105 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: of immigration from the Irish Potato famine and from a 106 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: lot of the political instability and what would become Germany. 107 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: All the German states. It was a time of upheavals 108 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: for Native Americans when there was you know, there was 109 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: displacement of people from the east to the west. It 110 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: was a time of mounting stresses reverding slavery between the 111 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: north and the South, which over the next couple of 112 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: decades would eventually culminate the Civil War. It was a 113 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 2: very tumultuous time. She was born in Carthage, Missouri, which 114 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: is in southwestern Missouri on the kind of the very 115 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: edge of the Ozarks, in an area that was that 116 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: was inhabited mostly not exclusively, but mostly by transplanted Southerners, 117 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: and her family were transplanted Southerners. But interestingly, we're we're 118 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: sort of Appalachians of German extraction on her father's side, 119 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 2: and her real like the real name when her ancestor 120 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: came from came from Germany was was Shala or Shalla 121 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: something like that, and it got anglicized to Shirley, which 122 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: I thought was funny, because you know, this is an 123 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: important ethnic group in the history of Appalachia. But you 124 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: often hear about the Scots Irish, and you know, I 125 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: think a lot of people think of bell Stars as 126 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: coming from this this kind of bout log cabins and 127 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: whiskey stills and hooton and holler and in fiddles and 128 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: away she did. But her family's origins are actually in 129 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: h in Pennsylvania and what's today is Amish country. I 130 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: mean they were. They were essentially Pennsylvania Dutch on her 131 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: father's side, on her mother's side, and her father ended 132 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: up going west, and it did this this classick pattern 133 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 2: you see of western expansion, where they started in Pennsylvania, 134 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: then went kind of to western Virginia, then bounced to Kentucky, 135 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: then went to southern Indiana, and then ended up in 136 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: the edge of the Ozarks in Carthage, Missouri. And her father, 137 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: he was a bit of a social climber. I guess 138 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 2: you could say he came from kind of farm folk 139 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: and you know, picked up slowly became more Appalachian as 140 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: they spent time and you know, moving western through Appalachian 141 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: the edge of the Ozarks. But I think he was 142 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: a social climber, and he really was ambitious. And he 143 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: started out as a farmer and then as stock farmer, 144 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: and he ended up moving into town and building a 145 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: little bit of a business, a small I mean, it's 146 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: a small town, but a small business empire opening the 147 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: Shirley Hotel, which in Carthage was sort of a landmark hotel, 148 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: and it was it was interestingly like but for that 149 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: time and place, a fairly fancy hotel. You know. It 150 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: wasn't some rustic country tavern with you know, raw you know, 151 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: raw pine benches whatever. I think. It was like a 152 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: regarded as a fairly nice hotel. And it was Carthage 153 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: was a county seat, so you'd have you know, important 154 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: people in the region passing through and things like that. 155 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: Trials were held there and he had a couple of 156 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: divorces prior to that, and then he ended up marrying 157 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: Myra Maybell Shirley, which is Bell's real name. Her you know, 158 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: original name, a woman named Eliza Elizabeth who was who 159 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: herself was a little bit of a southern bell from 160 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: Kentucky and was none to have you know, her social 161 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 2: graces and whatnot. And Bell herself again, Myra Maybell Shirley 162 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 2: was her was her original name. She initially grew up 163 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: on that first farm there, that stock farm, you know, 164 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: a bit of a country girl, and she was very 165 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 2: close to her older brother Bud, and he would take 166 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: her out riding and taught her how to shoot and 167 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: things like that. So she started out her childhood as 168 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 2: a country girl and then ended up moving into town 169 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: when her father started this hotel and he, you know, 170 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: he started to become quite prosperous and he became something 171 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: of a pillar of the community. And that was her 172 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: first introduction, I would say, to kind of a little 173 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: bit of the glamour of town life. And running this hotel, 174 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: you know, she started to get exposed to kind of 175 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: important people passing through, people who are a little more 176 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 2: stylishly dressed, and you know, traveling performers, gamblers, things like that. 177 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: And I think she you have this mixture of a 178 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: frontier girl who likes guns, likes riding horses, is very 179 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: good at both, but then also starts to get a 180 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: taste for a little bit of the glamour of, you know, 181 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 2: of city life, and starts to, I think, get a 182 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 2: little bit curious about what lies beyond that. And that's 183 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: sort of the very beginnings of belsh really, And she 184 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: ends up going to the Carthage Female Academy, at least 185 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 2: we're pretty sure she did, which was a private school 186 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: for girls there. So and she apparently was you know, 187 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: received received a proper education. You know, some people can 188 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: say she may have learned it. It was rumored avery 189 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: that she learned French and ancient Greek and Hebrew and 190 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: things like that, and along with music too, which would 191 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: also become a lifelong passion of hers, particularly the piano. 192 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: So that's that's where you start to see her forming. 193 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 2: But I think she was very frustrated from early on 194 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: about the rules that were expected of women and being 195 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: a girl. And I you know, in this society where 196 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: even these private schools were kind of like charm schools, 197 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: I guess you could say. 198 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: Preparing them to be married essentially, right. 199 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 2: Essentially, yes, exactly, And I think some of this frustration 200 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: builds whatever and a really big turning point in the 201 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: history of her family, which they became. You know, sh 202 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: had some brothers, the family grew. They were came from 203 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: this prosperous family running this hotel restaurant in town. Her 204 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: father also started like buying up some stables and other businesses. 205 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: Was the Civil War and Missouri was a very violence 206 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: would erupt because there'd been this tension for a long time. 207 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: Because her region was predominantly settled by Southerners, many of 208 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 2: whom came from, you know, parts of Appalachia and the 209 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: upland south and back east. But there was a northern 210 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: contingent too. There were quite a few you know, we 211 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 2: call them Yankees at the time who also who also 212 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: settled there. And what made Missouri kind of unique is 213 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: when violence sets started to to spring up. They a 214 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: lot of the local people around Carthage rallied to the 215 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: Southern cause, but they were put down fairly quickly by 216 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: the North. And for the rest of there was a 217 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: brief Southern occupation, then the North came in, then you 218 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 2: occupied it. So for most of the Civil War they 219 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: were occupied by the North, which created this huge gorilla insurgency. 220 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: And this would have been Bell was a young teenage girl. 221 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: All this was happening, and most of the local boys 222 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: who were Southern sympathizers became Confederate girls. They became bushwhackers 223 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: and they were out, you know, living in the woods, 224 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: doing attacks on kind of on militias and Union forces 225 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: things like that were occupying the region. And this is 226 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 2: one of the sort of beginning of the Bell Star legend. 227 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 2: And to talk about this in the book is that 228 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: she did actually serve as something of a spy. She 229 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: passed on information and intel and things like this to 230 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: her brother who was who was a bushwhacker, a gorilla 231 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,599 Speaker 2: in the area, like out in the camped out in 232 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 2: the woods, leading you know, ambushes, and yeah, there's some 233 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: there's some good stories. And again it's always hard to 234 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: separate the fact of the fiction. But you start to 235 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 2: see when you have different accounts that overlap, you said, say, oh, 236 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: there's probably some truth there. And she definitely had some 237 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: hair raising encounters. And it was also interesting because for 238 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 2: the first time in her life, I think she experienced 239 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: a distinct advantage because it was very dangerous for young 240 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: men to get involved, to be traveling around whatever. I mean, 241 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: they would just you know, militias would just kill them. 242 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 2: And because she was a young woman, a teenage girl, 243 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: she was kind of viewed as harmless, so she could 244 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: like go behind enemy lines things like that. And I 245 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: think this was her first taste. Yeah, as I said, 246 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: she was something of an adrenaline junkie. I think this 247 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: was her first taste of that rush. I think racing 248 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: on her horse behind enemy lines to go pass on 249 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: information to her brother in the woods, and it would 250 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: also turn out to be if the stories there's an 251 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: eyewitness account of this, it seems true. Her first sort 252 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: of brush with at least the threat of violence, her 253 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: brother ended up dying towards the end of the war, 254 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 2: was killed by militiamen, and she was so enraged, and 255 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: again she's a teenage girl. She actually went into town 256 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 2: with her mother there to collect the body and brought 257 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 2: two pistols with her and kind of openly challenged, you know, 258 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: whoever had killed her brother to a to a gun duel. 259 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 2: Essentially nobody rose to the John I think probably probably 260 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: because nobody wanted to was looking to get in a 261 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: gunfight with a teenage girl, but also possibly because, if 262 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: assuming her reputation was correct, she already at this point 263 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: was known to be good with horses and guns. But anyway, 264 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 2: that's that's sort of where where the beginning of Bell 265 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 2: Star is not just the daughter of a Southern bell 266 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: living on the edge of the the edge of the Ozarks, 267 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: kind of close to the frontier, where she starts to 268 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: transition into this really adventurous I guess you could say 269 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: law breaking, violent or first case of violence too violent 270 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 2: character and towards the very end of the war and this, 271 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: this this guerrilla ward turned out to be catastrophic for Missouri. 272 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: It was incredibly violent. People were giving their homes burned, 273 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: families were getting slaughtered. I mean, there was really a 274 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 2: time of incredible violence, sectarian violence between Northern sympathizers and 275 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: Southern sympathizers, and either town was in ruins and they 276 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: ended up the family, the Shirley family ended up leaving 277 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: and going to Texas. And there was a huge migration 278 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 2: of people from Missouri to Texas, specifically the area around Dallas, 279 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: and they restart a little frontier farm. Things were not 280 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 2: good for them like they've been. I mean, her father's 281 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 2: business had kind of been ruined by all this. They're 282 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: essentially starting from scratch. But one thing that's interested that happened, 283 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: and this is really the dawn of what we think 284 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: of as the wild West era, because you you have 285 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: suddenly you're in Texas the sort of you know, wild 286 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 2: us you could say wild frontier to a certain extent, 287 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: And you had all these young men from Missouri, from 288 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: other places too, but especially Missouri who had served as 289 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: Confederate guerrillas during the war, who got very good at 290 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: like you know, holding up stage co union stage coaches 291 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: and union trains, doing stickups, doing kind of you know, 292 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: horseback style, fighting with revolvers, all these things that they'd 293 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: done as gorillas, and suddenly they all to leave Missouri 294 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: because a lot of them were wanted for crimes after 295 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: the war. They weren't uniform confederates, they weren't granted any 296 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: sort of clemency. And you know, you see this a 297 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: lot in situations where where there's a war and you 298 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: have sort of a conquered people and no provision is 299 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: made for all these kind of gun handy young men 300 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: who are accustomed to violence and have no way to 301 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 2: make a living after that. And that's in a way 302 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: a lot of not all of the Wild West kind 303 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: of culture and violence and things we associated with it, 304 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: but a big chunk, especially when tech just started because 305 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: of this, and these outlaws who Bell Starr would in 306 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: some cases Mary and be very close to that's where 307 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: they started, you know, the Jesse James, Frank James, the 308 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: Younger brothers, Cole Younger, these were all close friends of hers. 309 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: She would end up marrying Jim Reid, who was also 310 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 2: one of these confederates. 311 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: Are these people do you think that these young men, 312 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: the Gorillas that you're talking about, as well as Bell Starr, 313 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: are they shaped by the Civil War in the way 314 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: that I think of a couple killers who if separated, 315 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: I'm not sure they would have committed the crimes that 316 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: they committed. So does the Civil War trigger something within 317 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: these young men and like Bell Star, that was always 318 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: there and they would have ended up doing you know, 319 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: terrible things or whatever, becoming these rebels, whether the Civil 320 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: War had started or not. 321 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: Sure. Well, I think to that point A big part 322 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 2: of it probably was was trauma too. I mean, there 323 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: was a it was extremely traumatic experience where everyone involved, 324 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: regardless of what site on, just being witnessed to that 325 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: kind of violence, that kind of you know, slaughter, particularly 326 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: what was happening in Missouri, which was really murderous and awful. 327 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: I think they were traumatized to an extent, and it's 328 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: you know, you see this sometimes, you know after wars 329 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 2: and that it's hard to go back to normal life, 330 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's difficult to make that adjustment. And 331 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 2: I think a lot of them were shaped and affected 332 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: by this, traumatized by it, and so I think it 333 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 2: was hard for them to go I mean the whole 334 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: you know, the drinking, the gambling, the kind of not 335 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: living in the moment, whatever, you know. I mean, I 336 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: think you see that a lot. You know. It's almost 337 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: like a like a Hummingway story or something like that, 338 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 2: where sort of this traumatic experience for war, that that 339 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: that that damages can damage you in a way and 340 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: and change the way, you know, change the way you 341 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 2: make it difficult to go back to ordinary life, and 342 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 2: changes the way you engage with society. And then on 343 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 2: top of that, there was the fact that they were 344 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: there were very limited economic opportunities for them because that 345 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 2: the economy in Missouri was destroyed. I mean, it was 346 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 2: just burned out. It took years to recover, and and 347 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: a lot of them were wanted criminals in Missouri, so 348 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: they had to leave. So suddenly they're on this Texas 349 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 2: frontier and there are many of them already had a 350 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 2: distaste for the federal government left over from the Civil War, 351 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 2: so sort of like the authority is very loose, it's 352 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: easy to get away with committing crimes. It's a place 353 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 2: where you know, just kind of their worst instincts could 354 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 2: could be unleashed. And they already had the skills. Like 355 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 2: you said, they had everything they needed to become to 356 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 2: stick up banks and to hold up trains and stagecoaches. 357 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 2: All this stuff was there and and yeah, and that's 358 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: and that's kind of where I started. And the good 359 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: examples that James Younger, you know, the Frank and Jesse 360 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: James and Cole Junger and his brothers, and Bell Starr 361 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: was very close to them. When like I was saying, 362 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: her first husband, Jim Reid, was part of that clique, 363 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: and that that was her real introduction to this outlaw 364 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: life was through her husband, Jim Reid. And you know, 365 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: they didn't go straight after the war. They kept you know, 366 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: like I said, they kind of slipped into the into 367 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: the world of crime. But one thing I would add, 368 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: and this is also really important to her story, there's 369 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: one other faction that's critical, that's critical biography, and that's 370 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: there were several, you know, at the time what was 371 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: called Indian Territory which is today Oklahoma, tribal governments and 372 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: they were split. They almost had their own kind of 373 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 2: civil war where some some factions of tribal government supported 374 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 2: the north and some the south. But at the time, 375 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: the major faction in the Cherokee government and self brother 376 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 2: as well supported the Confederacy in part because there were 377 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: many of the powerful families in the Cherokee government were 378 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 2: slave owning families, and that forged this very unlikely alliance 379 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 2: between Confederate Bushwhacker guerrillas in Missouri and then Cherokee troops 380 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 2: who would go up to volunteer and fight alongside them, 381 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 2: and this this coalition, this sort of partnership. And one 382 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: thing they would do is the Bushwhackers in the winter, 383 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: when all the leaves fell off the trees and it 384 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: was hard to hide, nothing to eat, they would go 385 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: hide and again what was called Indian territory at the time, 386 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: and hide out in the Cherokee Nation. And they developed 387 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 2: this interesting relationship where do something, you know, commit a 388 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 2: crime or you know, some sort of crime, then go 389 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: into hiding in the Cherokee Nation, which was kind of 390 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: beyond the touch of federal authorities to an extent. And 391 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: this continued after the war. Only now guys like Jim Reid, 392 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: Cole Younger, Jesse James, they're just robbing banks, robbing stage coaches, 393 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: and then they're still friends with these powerful, you know, 394 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: powerful individuals who they'd fought alongside in the Civil War 395 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: in the Indian Territory, and they would go and hide 396 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: out with them and pay them tribute. And also if 397 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 2: they stole horses or a rustled cattle, they would go 398 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: unload them in, you know, in the Cherokee Nation to 399 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: these family and this very interesting sort of organized crime 400 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: type relationship ended up forming. It would end up taking 401 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 2: the form beyond those other things of whiskey smuggling. And 402 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: this is something that Jim Reid and some of these 403 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: other guys got into. It was Bell Star's husband. And 404 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 2: this is so critical because they Bell Star started going 405 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 2: with her husband into the Cherokee Nation and she met 406 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 2: a family, a very powerful family there called the Stars. 407 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,959 Speaker 2: And Tom Starr was this kind of legend, you know, 408 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: I guess you could kind of call him a mafia 409 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 2: don of sorts. But he thought there was a political 410 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 2: component too. He was sort of important in the political 411 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 2: history of the Cherokee Nation, but also there was definitely 412 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: some criminal elements. He was just sort of a I 413 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 2: get he was a war lord, you could say that 414 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: he was. He'd been a warlord there and was engaged 415 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: in certain facets of organized crime. And that was her 416 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: introduction to that family. And then eventually her husband Jim Reid, 417 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: who was a bit of a near do well and 418 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 2: I mean we could talk all day about these sorts 419 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 2: of crimes. And Jim Reid, he he got too big 420 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: for his breeches, did some big robberies that got too 421 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: much heat, and he ended up about a bounty hunter 422 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 2: ended up killing it. And after that and Bell Starr 423 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: at this point, she wasn't known as Bell Stars as 424 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: Belle Reid. Their relationship, Bertie wasn't doing great because she 425 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: was sort of playing second fiddle and he was blowing 426 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 2: all the money and that they made on these you know, 427 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: these heists. He was blowing it all in gambling and 428 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: brothels and bars and who knows what else. And yeah, 429 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: and she at once her husband was killed. She ended 430 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 2: up in the Cherokee Nation and she married into one 431 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: of these to the Star family, which is sort of 432 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: this powerful, powerful local family. And she married the son 433 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 2: of Tom Starr, who is Sam Starr. 434 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: I've often been curious about what is the boundary when 435 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: do we go from Carthage or a city that is 436 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:54,239 Speaker 1: a city and crossover into the American frontier where, you know, 437 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: like I read about the Bloody Benders in Kansas, where 438 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: it's literally like a desert worth of sand and dust 439 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: and an outpost in the middle. Is there a boundary 440 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: at this point after the Civil War or is it 441 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: all fairly well developed at this point. 442 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: I would say when you look at American history, the 443 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: concept of the frontier had always was a moving line. 444 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: It was never really set an exact thing. And in 445 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 2: the early colonial period or sort of the edge of 446 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: the apple Achians, and after the Revolutionary War, people pushed 447 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 2: past the apple Achians, and when you're talking about European 448 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: colonists settlers, and there was almost always violence because obviously 449 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 2: these conflicts of conflicts of civilizations, of cultures, and also 450 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 2: just the sort of lawlessness provoked outlaw violence too, and 451 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 2: so it was always moving westward. And at the Civil 452 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 2: you know, at the time of the Civil War. It 453 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 2: was surely after that that's when I would say that 454 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 2: period we think of as the Wild West, that's when 455 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: it really kicked off. It was really from the end 456 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 2: of the Civil War eighteen eighteen sixty five until eighteen 457 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: eighty five eighteen ninety like around that. So it honestly 458 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 2: like it didn't last that long that's just funny when 459 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: you think about it was only a few decades and 460 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: it would have been you know, again not a hard 461 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: fast line. But when she moved to Dallas, Texas, that 462 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: was pretty close. I would say to you know, where 463 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: it would start to get dangerous if you went too 464 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 2: far outside of town. And she grew up right on 465 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 2: the edge of the frontier, and even that would change 466 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 2: quickly because what would happen is at first you'd have 467 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 2: this frontier outpost, but then the railroad would eventually come in. 468 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 2: And as soon as the railroad come in, then you know, 469 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: it would start to look like a regular city. You know, 470 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 2: it lost that kind of a little bit of that 471 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: frontier character. And I think the big railroad in Dallas, 472 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: but I remember correctly, was was early eighteen seventies, so there 473 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: was this period I think she went she moved there 474 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 2: eighteen sixty four, sixty five, right around there, I think 475 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: the summer of maybe sixty four, and so she got 476 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: you know, she lived there for five six years and 477 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: it was still a pretty wild place and she you know, 478 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 2: she lived in Sign right outside of Dallas, but it 479 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: was just a short horse ride away, and that was 480 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: you know, at this point, she's a teenage like an 481 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: older teenage girl. Well, she's getting exposed, you know. I 482 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 2: think she's starting to want to exert her in, you know, 483 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 2: her independence, see the world a little bit, to do 484 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: her own thing. And she's and I think she truly 485 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 2: is enraptured by this wild West culture that's springing up. 486 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: You know, this this world that maybe she got a 487 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 2: little bit of a peka at Carthage because that was 488 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: that was sort of a little bit on the edge 489 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 2: of the frontier. But this is you know, actual like 490 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: cowboy hats and you know, people shooting their pistols in 491 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: the air, and buffalo hunters and where you know, the 492 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 2: like violent conflicts between Native Americans and European Americans that 493 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: were a real thing just a short ride outside of town. 494 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: It was it was very dangerous for either part, I mean, 495 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 2: regardless of regardless side of it was a very could 496 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 2: be a very dangerous place, and she just embraced it. 497 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: I think she embraced that lifestyle. She fell in love 498 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 2: and when you look at her persona, when she really 499 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 2: embraced the part. And this really happened at the point 500 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 2: when she after the death of her first husband, when 501 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: she remarried and moved to the Cherokee Nation and married 502 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 2: into this sort of I guess you could say Cherokee 503 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: mafia family almost, but they're they're powerful, politically connected and 504 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: criminal family that she started. She had this incredible way 505 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: of dressing her. You know, she wore this long black dress, 506 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 2: a big collaborate plumed hat with a side pin of 507 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: big silver pistols, you know, in her gun belt. And 508 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: she always rode side saddle, which was kind of I 509 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 2: think in a way, a little bit her nod to 510 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 2: kind of, you know, her her genteel kind of Southern 511 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: bell upbringing because it was extended time, very lady like 512 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: to ride side saddle. But yeah, she paired that with 513 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: this incredible potential for violence, you know, the sort of mixture. 514 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: I mean, there's like a lot of great gangsters and 515 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: outlaws of great style that's part of the lifestyle, and 516 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 2: she she had incredible style, and she she really embraced it, 517 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 2: and she wasn't shy about calling attention to her like 518 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 2: she embraced when she kind of especially in the Cherokee Nation, 519 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: when she started to rise the ranks and actually becomes 520 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 2: something of a gang leader herself. She really embraced it, 521 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 2: and I think that's started to really cause problems because 522 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: she was attracting too much attention. You know. You get 523 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: the sense that the you know, Tom Starr, her father 524 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 2: in law, and this kind of family. You know, they've 525 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 2: been doing nicely doing, you know, having their own criminal 526 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 2: enterprises under the radar, whiskey smuggling, fencing horses, while also 527 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 2: doing legitimate ranching things like that on the side. And 528 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: she was I think bringing a little bit too much attention, 529 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 2: too much heat to the to the family and to herself. 530 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: And in the end she did actually get arrested for 531 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: horse theft. She got charged with horse theft alongside her 532 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: husband and ended up going to prison for it. 533 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 1: Let's go back to her role, because I think that 534 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: it deserves clarity. I remember talking to Brian Burrow about 535 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: his book and the women seemed few and far between, right, 536 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 1: So she's unique as far as somebody who would be 537 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: an outlaw. What would have been the normal trajectory of 538 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: her life, both as you know, a woman who you 539 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: know at this school was expected to marry some nice 540 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: but also as I had mentioned to you, one of 541 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: my books is said in the eighteen thirties and you 542 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: have these so called factory girls who are who have 543 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: a lot of independence. Was that available to women in 544 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: the American frontier during that time period. 545 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: My hunches, it would have been fairly difficult. Particularly It's 546 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 2: also just a question of some of it's legal and 547 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 2: some of its cultural. And I think it's just there 548 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: wasn't a very big cultural space where she could have 549 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: done what she wanted to do. You know. I think 550 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: even had she moved to a city and you know, 551 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 2: worked in a factories and like that, I think her 552 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: family would have really frowned upon it. You know, they 553 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 2: came from this kind of agrarian rural tradition a little bit, 554 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 2: you know, the kind of classic Southern bell type stuff 555 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: where you know, the idea of I think the idea 556 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: of her as a woman who did receive education, and 557 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: you know, they tried to think of themselves as coming 558 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: from like a good family, being a factory worker and 559 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 2: kind of walking around alone and doing tho some thing. 560 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: I think it would have probably been frowned upon. And 561 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: just legally it was hard to do things like get 562 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 2: business loans or voting and legs, becoming a leader of 563 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 2: a community, and I do think that's something she inherited 564 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 2: from her father. She did have this ambition. She wanted 565 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: to be a leader of sorts and control things and 566 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: build things, you know. And I think, again, as I 567 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: was saying, the lure of the criminal lifestyle, she could 568 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: play by her own rules. One of the things I 569 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 2: love to talk about is at the end of the day, 570 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 2: even though she became this wild criminal at all sorts 571 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 2: of you know, did time in prison, witnessed all these gunfights, 572 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: pulled guns on people, things like that, what she really 573 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 2: ended up doing when she became this gang leader, had 574 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 2: this outlaw ranch. She was known as Younger's Bend in 575 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 2: the Cherokee Nation, is she hosted outlaws. You know, they 576 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: would use her place as a hideout and pay her tribute. 577 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: So she was in the hospitality industry, and she was 578 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: big on horses. She was a big horse theft tho 579 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: was one of her big businesses was stealing horses and 580 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: fencing them. So she dealt in horse flesh. And those 581 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 2: are the two things her father did. You know, he 582 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: ran a hotel and he was a stock farmer. So 583 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: really she just kind of carried in the family tradition. 584 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 2: But legally you know, I don't think. I don't think 585 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: she could have really well, definitely culturally, possibly it would 586 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: have been very hard for her to kind of run 587 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 2: her own stock farm and run her own hotel or 588 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: even possibly inherit the hotel. Had that been possible in Carthage, 589 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: I guess they would have had to restart in Texas. 590 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 2: But that's what I mean, Like, it would have been 591 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 2: impossible for her to get the kind of like loans 592 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: necessary to build a hotel. It'd have been difficult to 593 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 2: get their respect to the community, like the other ranchers 594 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: and stock farmers and things like that, to be seen 595 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: as like a legitimate business partner. But that's the great irony. 596 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: She ended up doing exactly just the family business, exactly 597 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 2: what her father did, but as an outlaw and not 598 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: as a law abiding citizen. 599 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: I interviewed an author who wrote a book about a 600 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: woman named Queenie who became a female I don't know 601 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: gangsters the right word, but definitely the head of her 602 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: own criminal enterprise, a black woman in New York during 603 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, and just so it was a 604 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: benefit in a detriment for her to be a woman. 605 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: At the same time, you know, a benefit because they 606 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: maybe weren't as physically threatened by her, but of course 607 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: the detriment of being focused on by the police. I 608 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: am curious. I tuckled a little bit when you said, 609 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: you know that her family, because they were upstanding in Missouri, 610 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: how they would have maybe frowned upon her being a 611 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: factory girl. How is her dad a legitimate businessman? What 612 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: is their reaction to all of this? Or did they 613 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 1: happen to die before she starts this criminal you know, 614 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: outlaw life. 615 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: Her father did pass away before I think she became 616 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 2: a full blown criminal, but her mother was still alive. 617 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: And I you know, honestly, I don't know exactly. I 618 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: haven't read many accounts of how they reacted. But it 619 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 2: is worth saying though that the damage from the Civil 620 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 2: War it kind of affected It affected her whole family once. 621 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 2: She had one brother who died in the war. She 622 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: had another brother who also in Texas on the frontier, 623 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: got mixed up with a bad crowd and I believe 624 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: as a teenager like stole a horse and got shot 625 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: stealing a horse. And then she had another brother who 626 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: I'm this I'm not sure if he got killed or 627 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 2: or not, but I know he was getting into trouble 628 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: for kind of like always the same thing, running around 629 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 2: with hoodlums, stealing horses, and ended up having to leave. 630 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 2: You know, they kind of shipped him off somewhere else 631 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: because he was just getting in too much trouble and 632 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: it was getting too dangerous for him. In Texas, there 633 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 2: was this this moment where her family, you know, the damage. 634 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: I just think you say, the damage from the Civil 635 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 2: War is a transitions and again it was they decided 636 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 2: to be Confederate sympathizers in choose the losing side, so 637 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: it was there, you know, it was their choice. But yeah, 638 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 2: you do see how the experience and trauma and economic 639 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 2: destruction of the war transformed them from kind of pillars 640 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: of the community and business leaders and law abiding citizens 641 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: into kind of a family of renegades and outlaws to 642 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 2: an extent. And I think this was again, like I 643 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: was saying, this was a pretty common story. I think 644 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: I think this happened a lot, and it did give 645 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: birth to a lot of the general outlawry of the 646 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: Frontier is physically that part of the frontier. 647 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: You said that her relationship with Jim Reid before he 648 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: died was kind of falling apart. What was her relationship 649 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: with Sam Starr, Like, did you get any sense about that? 650 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: The good couple? 651 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 2: From what I understand, they actually had a very loving, 652 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: surprisingly loving relationship. This also goes along with her living 653 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: her own life as she on. As I understand, they 654 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: also both had had lovers and whatnot on the side 655 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: and whatever. But I do think as a couple they 656 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 2: really did care about each other. I think they were 657 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: quite close and in the end they you know, Sam, 658 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 2: they could say they fought for each other and Sam 659 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: kind of well, they didn't die for each other. She 660 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 2: didn't die, but he sort of died. I guess you 661 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: could even say defending her honor to extend. And again, 662 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: as I mentioned, almost every man in her life died 663 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: in a gun fight of some sort. Her husband, Sam Starr, 664 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: the son of Tom Starr, this legendary Cherokee figure. They 665 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: had been arrested by Cherokee lawman by the name of 666 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 2: Frank West. And it's interesting because I think they were 667 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 2: distant related, some kind of cousins something like that, and 668 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: everyone's very close down there, you know, everyone kind of 669 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 2: knew each other. And I think for that he was 670 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: seen as a very personal betrayal that this sort of 671 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 2: kind of member of the extended family arrested them and 672 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: put them behind bars. Bell Star and Sam Starr both 673 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: and so there was a lot of bad blood between 674 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 2: between Frank West and his brother John West. And also 675 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: his brother John West testified him against in the horse 676 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: theft case that they got charged for prior. So there's 677 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: a lot of bad blood between this part of the 678 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: Star family and the West, this family of lawmen. So 679 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 2: it's kind of like, don't you think of those stories, 680 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 2: those classic stories from like Boston or something where you 681 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: have like two brothers, like one becomes a bank robber 682 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 2: and the other becomes a policeman, you know you kind 683 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: of it was sort of like that, like there was 684 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: one side that that became lawman of the family and 685 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 2: the other that became criminals, and there was a lot 686 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 2: of bad blood between them, but they were kind of 687 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: trying to stay clear of each other after the trial, 688 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: after he'd done, you know, gotten out of prison whatever. 689 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 2: And then at a Christmas party at this point, Bell 690 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: Bell has had two children with her first husband, Jim Reid, 691 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 2: who passed away, so she was there with her two 692 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: children with her new husband, Sam Starr. They went to 693 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 2: a local Christmas party in Indian Territory and it just 694 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 2: so happened that Frank West was showed up at the party. 695 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: And according to legend, I'm not sure how true this is, 696 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: but the legend is that Bell Star there's a band playing, 697 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: you know, and Bell Starr was actually playing piano, and 698 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: she saw Frank West come in. It was almost, you know, 699 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 2: kind of this moment attention was where the music stopped 700 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 2: and was like, oh, this isn't good. And one thing 701 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: I should add in addition to this this bad blood 702 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: against the Wests, Frank West had also killed Bell Starr's 703 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 2: prize horse. She had this horse she loved called Venus, 704 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 2: and at one point Sam Starr was riding Venus and 705 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 2: he was actually fleeing from the law at this point, 706 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 2: and Frank West and his posse had shot the horse 707 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: out from under so and he vowed revenge. According to 708 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: the you know, the story as it goes is he 709 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 2: vowed revenge for killing his wife's favorite horse. And yeah, 710 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: when he saw Frank West warming himself by the bonfire, 711 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: you know, at the base of the hill, just blow 712 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 2: this cabin where the party was, he couldn't resist, and 713 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 2: he called him out, and he went down and challenged 714 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 2: him to a gun duel. And again, many aspects of 715 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: bell Star's life are very cinematics. This is one. It's 716 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 2: like right out of western movie. They both drew their guns, 717 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 2: they both fired, and they both died essentially at the 718 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 2: same time. So both men fell dead, Frank West and 719 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 2: Sam Starr. And that was how Bell Star became a 720 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 2: widow for the second time, again because of a gunfight. 721 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 2: Because of gun violence. I mean, I guess you could 722 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 2: say in a way, he kind of died defending her honor. 723 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: And to answer to answer your question, I think that 724 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 2: was the one romantic relationship she had where I think 725 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: it was actually like a pretty loving criminality aside maybe 726 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: even healthy, healthy relationship. 727 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: We often talk about morals, I think in crime. I 728 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: had a forensic psychologist when I said, I've said this 729 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: before on the show, when I said, well, serial killers 730 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: don't have any morals or ethics, and she said, yeah, 731 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: they do, they're just not our morals and ethics. And 732 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: I thought, back to a serial killer I wrote my 733 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: first book about killed all these women and then spent 734 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: all of his money putting down his old decrepit dog 735 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: because he loved this dog so much and he knew 736 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: it wouldn't survive without him. And so, you know, I've 737 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: talked to Brian Burrow about the honor code of the 738 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: Old West. What were what were the lines that should 739 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: not have been crossed? At least from maybe Sam or 740 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: you know, the people that he was working with and 741 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: Bell's experience, like don't attack other people who are members 742 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: of the Cherokee Nation, or was everything up for grabs? 743 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: Don't take this person's you could take anybody's horse, you won. 744 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: Sure. I think there were some codes, and in the 745 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 2: few written accounts that remain that from Bell Star herself, 746 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 2: she definitely had a code, and she did have this 747 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 2: this idea of kind of of honor, of being an 748 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 2: honorable outlaw. And one of the elements of this code 749 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 2: was that you didn't betray other outlaws, like who are 750 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: friends of yours? Because one thing I think that that's 751 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 2: maybe been lost a bit about this era things like that, 752 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: is they would always put bounties on these wanted criminals, 753 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 2: and the worst crimes you committed, the bigger the bounties 754 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: would get to the point where your own friends were 755 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 2: willing to turn on you because it would be an 756 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: incredible amount of money. And this is part of the 757 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: reason too. Oftentimes people ran with their brothers, like Frank 758 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 2: and Jesse James, and you know, the younger brothers, because 759 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 2: you could usually trust them not to turn on you, 760 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 2: or on the case of these Confederate girls, war buddies too. 761 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 2: So if they were relatives or war buddies, you usually 762 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 2: could count of them not to turn on you for money. 763 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 2: And I think that was very frowned upon. And that's 764 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: sort of what happened to her first husband, Jim Reid. 765 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 2: He was killed by a bounty hunter, but it was 766 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: by a bounty hunter he kind of knew already and 767 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 2: was sort of pretending to be his friends to get 768 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 2: closer and ended up killing. So that was really frowned 769 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 2: upon turning on other outlaws for bounties. And also I think, 770 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: even though I don't think they always lived up to this, 771 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 2: this is definitely like hypocritical. And you see this especially 772 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 2: among characters like Frank and Jesse James, particularly when are 773 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 2: Cole Younger people like that when you read their memoirs, 774 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 2: they like to portray themselves as Robin hoods, like figures 775 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: you know, because it was after the Civil War, they 776 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 2: would claim they were kind of avenging, avenging the South 777 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 2: in some case by like stealing from the federal government 778 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 2: or whatnot, or stealing from kind of wealthy people, you know, 779 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 2: rich rich people, carpet baggers, bankers, people like that. They liked, 780 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 2: they liked to champion this idea that they were they 781 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 2: were sort of fighting for the common man and stealing 782 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 2: from wealthy individuals or the federal government or banks or whatever. 783 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 2: And there may have been a little bit truth to that, 784 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 2: but the effect of the matter is they I mean, 785 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 2: one thing I'll say about about Belstar Court, they definitely, 786 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,959 Speaker 2: I mean, they they blew all their month, their money, 787 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 2: exactly the way he would expect wild West outlaws to 788 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 2: blow their mind. They weren't. They weren't helping the poor 789 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 2: or anything like that. They were. They were drinking whiskey 790 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 2: and gambling and having high times. They were. They lived 791 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 2: the lifestyle. And they didn't always steal from wealthy people either. 792 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 2: And they definitely in most cases they had one big 793 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 2: score against It was a famous Grayson robbery. It was 794 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 2: a huge score. Those were the first crimes bell Star 795 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 2: was even was ever involved with. But she was kind 796 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 2: of a little bit of a sidekick. She'd watch the 797 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 2: horses and that score they did. They made off with 798 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 2: like over thirty thousand dollars in gold from a very 799 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 2: rich kind of rancher and tribal government member in an 800 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 2: Indian territory. 801 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: Wait, let me ask this. Thirty thousand now or thirty 802 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: thousand in the eighteen seventies, this. 803 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 2: Was it was actually, I believe around thirty two thousand 804 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 2: dollars and this was back then. This should have been 805 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 2: the score of a lifetime. And it's interesting. This is 806 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 2: one of the things I think that really ruined her 807 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 2: marriage to Jim Reid and why they sort of were 808 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 2: on the outs when he was killed, is she participated 809 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 2: in this. She wasn't one of the gunmen, but she 810 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 2: was waiting outside with the horses when they did this. 811 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 2: And it should have been the score of a lifetime. 812 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 2: And not only did he not give her any of 813 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 2: the money. You know, he was like, no, you know, 814 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 2: he was just his wife. You know, he was managing 815 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 2: the money, which I think really evoked her ire because 816 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 2: she didn't like being treated that way. Not only that 817 00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 2: he blew all the money in a matter of weeks. 818 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 2: I mean just horse racing, gambling, drinking, all these sort 819 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 2: of things. And on top of that he ended off 820 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 2: running off with a younger mistress. So all these things 821 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 2: were sort of the last straw I think for bell Stars, 822 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: so their marriages aren't in the out he was killed. 823 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 2: So that was a case where they did rob someone 824 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 2: who had considerable wealth, but also the people she was 825 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 2: found guilty of, and I was like, you robbing horses, 826 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 2: I don't think most of them were wealthy ranchers. And 827 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 2: there's at least one stick up yet it was this 828 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: She was charged with the crime of doing kind of 829 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 2: an armed robbery. Later in Indian Territory she was found innocent, 830 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 2: But honestly, I think she did it because one of 831 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 2: the witnesses claimed that there was a woman dressed as 832 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 2: a man in the robbery and identified bell Star. And 833 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 2: there's really I mean, as you were saying before, there 834 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 2: weren't that many lady outlaws willing wh would dress up 835 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 2: like men to do robbery. So I'm fairly confident, even 836 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 2: though you can't prove it that she was involved, and 837 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 2: in that case, they were not at all robbing wealthy individual. 838 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 2: She was just sticking up kind of like local farmers, 839 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 2: you could say, so, yeah, she didn't definitely did not 840 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 2: adhere to this code of only of kind of robbing, 841 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 2: robbing from the rich to give to the poor or 842 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,839 Speaker 2: whatever that. But the other aspect I said though about 843 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 2: kind of not having this brotherhood of thieves and not 844 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 2: betraying other outlaws whatever, as far as I know that 845 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 2: she did adhere to and she did. She did make 846 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 2: a lot of money at part of her criminal empire. 847 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 2: You should say it was protection racket. But she had 848 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 2: this ranch and Youngers Bend in the Cherokee Nation where 849 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 2: outlaws including Jesse James was one of her first customers. 850 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 2: Because they had this long standing relationship going back to 851 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 2: the Civil War where after a crime, after a big 852 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 2: stick up, hold up, whatever, they would come hide out 853 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 2: at her ranch, give her some of the money is 854 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 2: a tribute, use that as a safe house. And because 855 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 2: there's this interesting relationship between the Indian you know, the 856 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 2: Indian Territory and the federal government where they had their 857 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 2: own police force, and ultimately federal US marshals could go 858 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 2: on to you know, soalv and tribal nations to pursue criminals, 859 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 2: but they usually didn't like to unless it was really 860 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 2: a serious crime. So in many cases, you know, you 861 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 2: had these criminals. It was just like I said though, 862 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 2: back during the Civil War, after a big raid, go 863 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 2: hide out at Tom Starr's place, and then later Bell 864 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 2: Star's place, pay her tributes, give her some of the loot, 865 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 2: and then a couple of weeks a couple months later, 866 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 2: when things had died down, say thanks and be on 867 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 2: their way. So she did have these these close relationships 868 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 2: with a lot of these outlaws. 869 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: Tell me about her time in jail or prison. I 870 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,479 Speaker 1: know you had mentioned for horse theft. How many times 871 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: do we think she encountered the law and lost? And 872 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: what would the experience for a woman have been like 873 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: in jail or prison in this time period. 874 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 2: One of the things that's really fascinating about Bell Starr 875 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 2: is ntil like, one of the reasons I really want 876 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 2: to write this book is there have been a number 877 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 2: of historical detractors who, when writing about her kind of 878 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 2: say tread to downplay her. You know, her legend, and 879 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 2: to be fair, there is a lot of exaggerayeneration involved 880 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 2: in her legend. I talk about this in the book too, 881 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 2: But there was this effort to downplayer as a legitimate criminal, 882 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 2: as a gang lord, all these things, and when you 883 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 2: start looking at the evidence, it wasn't that's not the 884 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 2: case at all. I mean, she definitely, I mean the 885 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 2: federal government put tons of resources into pursuing her and 886 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 2: putting her behind bars. But one of the things the 887 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,919 Speaker 2: arguments they would use, they would say, oh, the only 888 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 2: thing she was only convicted of was horse theft. It 889 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 2: was like one charge of horse theft. First of all, 890 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 2: that that was the only charge she was convicted of. 891 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,879 Speaker 2: She was charge of horse theft once. She was also 892 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 2: charged later with armed robbery. She was charged with another 893 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 2: kount of horse theft later, but she beat those two 894 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,439 Speaker 2: other charges. And on top of that, what I would 895 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 2: say is you got to think of it a little bit, 896 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 2: and this is just something about organized crime in general, 897 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 2: like al Capone. You know, they he ended up going 898 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 2: buying bars for tax evasion because organized crimespecifically before the 899 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 2: Rico Act and all that sort of thing, it was 900 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 2: very hard to prove criminal conspiracy and a lot when 901 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 2: in the shadows. So it's true. The only thing she 902 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 2: was ever officially arrested for, charged with, and did time 903 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 2: for was the single case of horse left. But she 904 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 2: she was arrested multiple times, she was compound or ranch, 905 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 2: was constantly getting rated by US marshals. There was a 906 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 2: huge effort both by tribal authorities and federal authorities to 907 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 2: put her behind bars. And so it was a long 908 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 2: standing thing, this, you know, decades long thing of her 909 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 2: problems with the law. So that that was the first 910 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 2: part of your question. The second about her time when 911 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 2: she did when she was actually charged the first time, 912 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 2: she got sentenced to one year in the Detroit House 913 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 2: of Correction. And I believe part of the reason they 914 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 2: sent her there is because of the one of the 915 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 2: only facilities that had a section for women, for women criminals, 916 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:53,359 Speaker 2: for female criminals, which is interesting. And she was sent there, 917 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,760 Speaker 2: and I have to imagine it was a huge culture 918 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 2: shock because she sort of this creature of the frontier 919 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 2: of the you know, Carthage, Missouri, on the edge of 920 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 2: the Ozarks, then Texas. You know, she grew up amongst 921 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 2: settlers and Native Americans and people gunfighters passing through and 922 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 2: then then to suddenly go to Detroita. Remember it seems 923 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 2: it can seem like a long time ago. This is 924 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 2: this would have been the eighteen eighties in Detroit. This 925 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,920 Speaker 2: is like steeled, almost like industrial era. Their factories belching smoke, 926 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 2: they have electric lights, baseball teams, all this stuff. So 927 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 2: I think it was a would have been a real 928 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 2: culture shock for it to suddenly be thrown into a big, 929 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:38,720 Speaker 2: multi ethnic industrial metropolis, kind of a booming metropolis, after 930 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 2: having grown up on the sort of plains of Texas 931 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 2: and the edge of the Ozarks. But by all accounts 932 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 2: from what I've read, again, it's hard to know how 933 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 2: much is fact and not, but she was a fairly 934 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 2: model prisoner, even kind of made friends with a warden 935 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,239 Speaker 2: and whatnot. I think she was a little bit of 936 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 2: an of a novelty, you know, this kind of stylish 937 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 2: lady outlaw from the wild West who also happened to 938 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 2: be fairly educated and you know, could, according to legend, 939 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 2: converse in French and whatnot. So I think she was 940 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,320 Speaker 2: seen as a novelty, maybe even got a little special 941 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 2: treatment because of that. But I don't from what I've read, 942 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 2: like she was kind of just a model prisoner, did 943 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 2: her time, and then her and her husband, I think 944 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 2: both got off at roughly the same at roughly the 945 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 2: same time, and then she went back, went back to 946 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,439 Speaker 2: younger's bend in a today Oklahoma Cherokee Nation. And from 947 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 2: what I understand, she tried to go straight. She did. 948 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,800 Speaker 2: I think she had this brief kind of scared straight 949 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 2: moment from going to prison. I think it was also 950 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 2: very hard for being away from her children, and I 951 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,879 Speaker 2: think she made this effort to go straight to stay 952 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 2: away from her outlaw friends, a criminal life, and she 953 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 2: just couldn't do it. It was too tempting. And then she 954 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,799 Speaker 2: ended up getting back to it and went on this 955 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 2: criminal rampage, and her husband went on a criminal rampage, 956 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 2: Sam Starr, doing all these hold ups and stuff. He 957 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 2: had to go into hiding, and then she This is 958 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,400 Speaker 2: around the time when she was charged with the second 959 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 2: act of horse theft and when she was when she 960 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 2: was charged with the armed robbery. So she did make 961 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 2: an effort, but then went right back to the criminal life. 962 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: I wonder about the in game for people in the Frontier. 963 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,359 Speaker 1: In my second book, I wrote about three brothers who 964 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: wanted to be train robbers in a time when the 965 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: Marines were now guarding the trains and they were using 966 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: large safe So this was a terrible idea and it 967 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 1: went horribly for them. But you know, their in game 968 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: was the three of them had young women who they 969 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: were involved with, and they said, this is a one 970 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 1: time thing. We're not bank robbers, we just want to 971 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,399 Speaker 1: get money in then we want to go, and they 972 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: wanted to move out west and buy some land and 973 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: have kind of create this like deal Tremont compound this family. 974 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,479 Speaker 1: Did you have an idea about what her in game 975 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: specifically would be. Did she really think she was just 976 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,359 Speaker 1: going to survive and raise these kids into her nineties 977 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,880 Speaker 1: or was was it really like what am I going 978 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 1: to do tomorrow, not what's going to happen in decades. 979 00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,160 Speaker 2: My impression reading all the sources available inutter life is, 980 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 2: I think, particularly towards the end shortly before she was killed, 981 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 2: you're seeing the end of the wild West era. And 982 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 2: I think it was fair like it was. It was 983 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 2: fairly obvious. I think people were aware of this, that 984 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 2: you just couldn't get away with crime the way you 985 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 2: could before. There weren't places to hide out as much anymore, 986 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,360 Speaker 2: that this age of the wild West and of wild 987 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,399 Speaker 2: West banditry was coming to a close. And I do 988 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 2: have the impression I did get the impression that she 989 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 2: was thinking of going straight and doing some kind of 990 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 2: more legitimate, legitimate activity, or maybe do still kind of 991 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,800 Speaker 2: doing shady criminal things, but in a more respectable fashion, 992 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,200 Speaker 2: you know, with and and her base for this, I 993 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 2: think was Younger's Bend. And this Younger's Bend was this 994 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 2: this ranch she had in the in the Cherokee Nation. 995 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 2: But the issue was she was not officially a tribal citizen, 996 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,239 Speaker 2: and she could only stay there as long as she 997 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 2: was married to a tribal citizen. And I do think 998 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,520 Speaker 2: that this was she loved Younger's Bend. I think she 999 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 2: the best years of her life was there, and I 1000 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 2: think she really wanted to figure out a way to 1001 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 2: get full control of this of this ranch and use it, 1002 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 2: make it profitable, use it for something. It was kind 1003 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,799 Speaker 2: of her home base. And I think a lot when 1004 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 2: you look at a lot of her, a lot of 1005 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 2: activities like it starts to it starts to make sense 1006 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 2: because this is what she'd always been denied. Her dream 1007 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,320 Speaker 2: has always been to be dependent, to be her own independent, 1008 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 2: to be her own person, to have her own life. 1009 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,720 Speaker 2: And I think, like I said, to be like her father. 1010 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 2: And this I think she saw Younger's bend as this 1011 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,880 Speaker 2: little ranch farm, as her key to it. And I 1012 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 2: do think that was kind of her her end game 1013 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,840 Speaker 2: in some form or another. And I think towards the 1014 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 2: very end she wasn't really that. Her last year or two, 1015 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 2: after this brief sort of criminal rampage her husband went on, 1016 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,440 Speaker 2: I think she kind of made a piece of sorts. 1017 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 2: I think she decided to back down a bit from 1018 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,319 Speaker 2: the criminal life, try to go legit. I think she 1019 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 2: was trying to repair the relationships with her children because 1020 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,920 Speaker 2: her lifestyle took a pretty you know, heavy toll on her. 1021 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,400 Speaker 2: She's her children and this is this is this is 1022 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 2: just you know, straight out of some kind of gangster 1023 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,239 Speaker 2: movie or something like that. This is also when she 1024 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 2: was killed. You know, the moment, the moment when it 1025 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,719 Speaker 2: seemed like her future was relatively secure, that she you know, 1026 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 2: she was starting to turn away from the sort of 1027 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 2: wild route and toute in lifestyle and maybe even considering 1028 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 2: ways to go legit. That she got gunned down off 1029 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 2: her horse. And this is really the great mystery of 1030 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,800 Speaker 2: the book and what I start with. She was riding 1031 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,680 Speaker 2: her horse back well, interestingly enough, she was actually helping 1032 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,000 Speaker 2: Jim July. She she had another young husband after Sam 1033 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 2: Starr was killed. She was escorting him to turn himself 1034 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,439 Speaker 2: in for a horse theft charge. And this is also 1035 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 2: kind of her way of tying up blue scent. She 1036 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 2: was done running from the law. He was going to 1037 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,320 Speaker 2: go answer to answer these charges. She'd just gotten off 1038 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 2: her charges, so she beat the charges a trial, and 1039 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,439 Speaker 2: so she was she was telling her husband like, listen, 1040 00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,840 Speaker 2: just go turn yourself in. Let's get let's just get 1041 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 2: out all this side of the way and you know, 1042 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 2: stay out of trouble. And she was riding back alone. 1043 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,160 Speaker 2: This would have been Fort Smith, Arkansas, which is a 1044 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 2: couple of days right away. She was riding back alone. 1045 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 2: She stopped at a friend's place and was having really 1046 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,320 Speaker 2: kind of just like a little picnic after church picnic 1047 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 2: or something like that on a Sunday. Stopped by there, 1048 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,480 Speaker 2: briefly said alo to a few friends, then was continued 1049 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 2: on towards younger Ben down towards the South Canadian River, 1050 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,200 Speaker 2: which she had to cross, and not far from the 1051 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 2: river bank, someone gunned her down from behind. One blast 1052 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,920 Speaker 2: from a shotgun that knocked her off her horse, and 1053 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 2: then kind of a death blow of point blank range 1054 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,440 Speaker 2: with the second barrel of the shotgun. 1055 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,800 Speaker 1: A shotgun. That's awful, Yeah. 1056 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,919 Speaker 2: A shotgun. And the big mystery has always been who 1057 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 2: killed Bell Star? 1058 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,360 Speaker 1: Did she have a bounty on her head at this point? 1059 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 2: At this point, I don't think she had a bounty 1060 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 2: on her because she'd beaten her last charges like she had. 1061 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,760 Speaker 2: She had the horse theft in the armed robbery charges 1062 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 2: against her, but she'd gone to trial and won, so 1063 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,239 Speaker 2: she was in pretty good standing at this point. You know, 1064 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,760 Speaker 2: as to who killed her, this is the great mystery, 1065 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 2: and this is I devote the end part of my 1066 00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 2: book to talking about this is There a number of 1067 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 2: interesting candidates, and the initial suspect was this sharecropper, and 1068 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 2: he was a white sharecropper who'd come from somewhere back east, 1069 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 2: the Deep South, I think part of like part of Florida, 1070 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 2: and was renting some of her or at least had 1071 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 2: tried to rent some of her land as a tendant. 1072 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,520 Speaker 2: It's still there's some debate about why, but that the agreement. 1073 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,560 Speaker 2: She ended up deciding she didn't want him as a tenant, 1074 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,800 Speaker 2: or it didn't work out. There was some bad blood, 1075 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,600 Speaker 2: but it seemed like things were clear they'd had this dispute, 1076 00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:33,800 Speaker 2: but it seemed like they'd made an agree and he 1077 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 2: found land somewhere else, so it seemed like everything was okay. 1078 00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,640 Speaker 2: This guy named Edgar Watson, but he was one of 1079 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 2: the initial suspects that particularly like members of her family, 1080 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,360 Speaker 2: local churches initially fingered him, said I think it was Watson, 1081 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,839 Speaker 2: and it occurred very close to his house. And also 1082 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,880 Speaker 2: he did own a double barreled shotgun like everybody, like 1083 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 2: a lot of people had shotguns. So he was the 1084 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:57,280 Speaker 2: initial suspect. 1085 00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,959 Speaker 1: Tell me again, how close was she to her home? 1086 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,200 Speaker 1: Was she in Oklahoma at this point when she gets 1087 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 1: gunned down, or is she in the middle of this 1088 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 1: two or three day trip. 1089 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 2: She was very close to her home. She was just, 1090 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,280 Speaker 2: like I think, like a couple miles a couple miles 1091 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,479 Speaker 2: away from her home when this happened. And like I said, 1092 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 2: she'd stop by a friend's place, like one of her 1093 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,400 Speaker 2: neighbors for this little picnic gatherings to say hello. And 1094 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,520 Speaker 2: so a lot of suspicion fell on him initially, and 1095 00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,040 Speaker 2: they did. They kind of grabbed him. But he also 1096 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,319 Speaker 2: showed up at her funeral, which is interesting. He showed 1097 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 2: up as his funeral with his wife. Wasn't fleeing anything, 1098 00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,919 Speaker 2: and almost seemed surprised when they grabbed him and said 1099 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,240 Speaker 2: we think he did it. And they took him into 1100 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,279 Speaker 2: Fort Smith because he wasn't a tribal citizen. He was 1101 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 2: a white sharecropper, so they had to take him to 1102 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,080 Speaker 2: face federal you know, the federal government in Fort Smith. 1103 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,879 Speaker 2: They couldn't take him to tribal authorities, and they took 1104 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 2: him in they were considering, you know, charges, there was 1105 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,319 Speaker 2: a hearing whatever, but several witnesses came forward and said 1106 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,960 Speaker 2: it couldn't have been him. One one witness claimed that 1107 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,480 Speaker 2: he was with him, you know, just a minute before 1108 00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:59,879 Speaker 2: the shooting and they heard the shots, and they said 1109 00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:01,640 Speaker 2: he I was right with him. It couldn't have been him. 1110 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 2: Someone else said they heard him calling in his hogs 1111 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,200 Speaker 2: just seconds or minutes before the shooting took place farther away, 1112 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:08,480 Speaker 2: and they said, you know, there's no way it could 1113 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,720 Speaker 2: have been him. And so in the end they released 1114 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,240 Speaker 2: him and he immediately high tailed it out with his wife. 1115 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 2: He got out of there because there are people a 1116 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:17,800 Speaker 2: lot of people who still wanted him dead regard you know, 1117 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,000 Speaker 2: who still thought he was guilty, but so that raised 1118 00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,839 Speaker 2: the question if he wasn't guilty, which if these if 1119 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:24,960 Speaker 2: these witnesses, you know, if the judge was correct and 1120 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,800 Speaker 2: releasing I'm saying, you know, we have witnesses saying it 1121 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,760 Speaker 2: couldn't have been him? Who was it? And it's interesting 1122 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,880 Speaker 2: because there are there are some potential killers worth looking at, 1123 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,120 Speaker 2: And some people suggested maybe even her own children, because 1124 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 2: she had this very contentious relationship with both her son 1125 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,000 Speaker 2: Eddie and her daughter who at this point where you know, 1126 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:44,880 Speaker 2: I said they were older teenagers, I think, you know, 1127 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 2: twenty something like that, and some people have suggested this. Personally, 1128 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 2: I don't think there's no evidence. There's not really any 1129 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,360 Speaker 2: evidence that they were that they were involved, or that 1130 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,880 Speaker 2: her son was involved, even though there had been some 1131 00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,200 Speaker 2: disputes and he was at the moment, like not living 1132 00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,640 Speaker 2: at home. But I don't think. I don't think there's 1133 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:02,560 Speaker 2: no evidence that he had anything to do with I mean, 1134 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,799 Speaker 2: by all accounts, he was very distraught and spent you know, 1135 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,720 Speaker 2: spent hours searching through the woods looking for fingerprints, stuff 1136 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,880 Speaker 2: like that. So I don't think it was either of 1137 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:15,760 Speaker 2: her children. Another candidate is this this husband, Jim July 1138 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,319 Speaker 2: and she was the one who had escorted you know, 1139 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,040 Speaker 2: to Fort Smith for charges. And they have an interesting 1140 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,520 Speaker 2: story because whereas Sam Starr her husband prior, it seemed 1141 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 2: like a genuine, loving relationship. A lot of people have 1142 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 2: proposed the idea that this was sort of a marriage 1143 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,640 Speaker 2: of convenience. He was fifteen years younger than her, he 1144 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,120 Speaker 2: had this is a great story. But she actually, according 1145 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,440 Speaker 2: to the story, made him change his last name to 1146 00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 2: match hers when they got married, because she was, you know, 1147 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,160 Speaker 2: she was the boss here, you know, not him. And 1148 00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,960 Speaker 2: as far as marriage of convenience goes, it's been suggested 1149 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,719 Speaker 2: that because she was marrying a tribal citizen, she could 1150 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 2: stake a claim on Younger's bend to stay at her ranch. 1151 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,000 Speaker 2: And he got a nice arrangement. We had to live 1152 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:01,960 Speaker 2: on this. You know. He was like a little bit 1153 00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:03,759 Speaker 2: of a near do well I think, or kind of 1154 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,520 Speaker 2: a I don't know. He didn't seem like he was 1155 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:07,879 Speaker 2: very firmly grounded. He had a nice place to live, 1156 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,480 Speaker 2: got his meals covered, you know, he got everything, everything 1157 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,680 Speaker 2: taken care of. Yeah, so there's some people have suggested, well, 1158 00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:19,160 Speaker 2: maybe he killed her to get Younger's bet, you know, 1159 00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,239 Speaker 2: and it wouldn't be the first time in history that 1160 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,960 Speaker 2: you know, someone younger married someone older and then committed 1161 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 2: murder to inherit this wealth or whatever. And it's definitely 1162 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,160 Speaker 2: not impossible either. But there's a couple problems with this one. 1163 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,080 Speaker 2: It seems very unlikely he could have done it himself 1164 00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,719 Speaker 2: because he was in Fort Smith at the time he 1165 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:40,760 Speaker 2: escorted her. I don't think it would have been possible 1166 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 2: to come back. It's possibly could have recruited someone to 1167 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,680 Speaker 2: do it, and some people who even suggested maybe he recruited, 1168 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 2: you know, Edgar Watson, this guy to do the killing 1169 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,600 Speaker 2: for him, the sharecropper, So that seems unlikely. But the 1170 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,120 Speaker 2: other reason it seems unlikely that that story is correct 1171 00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,560 Speaker 2: is if that were true, it would make sense that 1172 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,799 Speaker 2: he would around after her death and claim Younger's ben 1173 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,080 Speaker 2: to be his own. That was his motive, and he 1174 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:07,560 Speaker 2: didn't do that at all. He went on a crime 1175 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,279 Speaker 2: spree immediately afterwards, joined a band of outlaws and ended 1176 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,760 Speaker 2: up there. It was the Choctaw Nation of the Cricket, 1177 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,720 Speaker 2: but another ended up dying in a gunfight or dying 1178 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 2: shortly after mortally wounded in a gunfight with tribal authorities, 1179 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,320 Speaker 2: So it doesn't really make sense that version of story 1180 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,360 Speaker 2: that he was responsible. And then you start to think, 1181 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 2: all right, well, who else would have wanted her dead? 1182 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 2: She probably did make a lot of enemies over the years, 1183 00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,960 Speaker 2: but you know, she hadn't really tangled anyone recently. And 1184 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 2: another candidate is just forces within the tribal government because 1185 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,360 Speaker 2: she'd been a thorn in their side for years and 1186 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,520 Speaker 2: they'd been kind of trying to get rid of her. 1187 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,920 Speaker 2: You know, she was just this just this pariah, you know, 1188 00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,760 Speaker 2: this this outlaw was constantly and because they're limited power, 1189 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,360 Speaker 2: because she wasn't a tribal citizen, it was hard for 1190 00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:56,520 Speaker 2: them to prosecute her. They had to rely on the 1191 00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,200 Speaker 2: federal government. But it was hard for them to kick 1192 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,160 Speaker 2: him out, kick her out because she was married to 1193 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,440 Speaker 2: a tribal citizen. And it is possible that there were factions, 1194 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,320 Speaker 2: even in the government or even just within the Cherokee 1195 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,520 Speaker 2: Nation who just had had enough this outsider, this white 1196 00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,840 Speaker 2: woman who came here has been like kind of engaging 1197 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,920 Speaker 2: in crime and causing all these problems and whatnot, and someone, 1198 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,360 Speaker 2: as possible someone finally just got fed up. And it's 1199 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,480 Speaker 2: also interesting to look at that within the context of 1200 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,960 Speaker 2: Oklahoma Oklahoma statehood, you know, there was this big lobby, 1201 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 2: particularly from outsiders, looking to open up some of these 1202 00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,640 Speaker 2: parts of Indian territory to white settlers. And it was 1203 00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,600 Speaker 2: at this point people were getting really weirded of sort 1204 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:37,640 Speaker 2: of the writing on the wall that this was probably 1205 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,640 Speaker 2: going to happen. And if they were looking to make 1206 00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:44,040 Speaker 2: an example of someone, you know, an outsider who'd kind 1207 00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 2: of come and dug in and refused to leave, who 1208 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,560 Speaker 2: didn't belong there, Bell Star would have potentially been a 1209 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,080 Speaker 2: good example, even though from what it seems like most 1210 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,560 Speaker 2: of her natural neighbors liked her. You know, I think 1211 00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,600 Speaker 2: she was pretty well liked in her immediate community. I 1212 00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,280 Speaker 2: think it would have been more kind of like within 1213 00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:00,720 Speaker 2: the government things like that. 1214 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:02,920 Speaker 1: And she wasn't robbed or anything like that. 1215 00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,600 Speaker 2: No robbery, no, no, no robbery anything. And this seemed 1216 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,680 Speaker 2: like a like a hit, one shot from the back 1217 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,080 Speaker 2: then a you know, point blank range, kind of the 1218 00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,520 Speaker 2: finish of the Koudo graphs, so to speak, the finishing thing. 1219 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,000 Speaker 1: I was wondering if it could have been like a 1220 00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,480 Speaker 1: law man, but he would have taken credit for it, 1221 00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:22,160 Speaker 1: or maybe not, because there was nothing to charge her with, 1222 00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,880 Speaker 1: so would have been an illegal execution, you know, if 1223 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:27,320 Speaker 1: she wasn't wanted. 1224 00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:29,760 Speaker 2: Exactly, and it could and that's sort of what I 1225 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 2: was thinking. That was a possibility too, But there's no 1226 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,080 Speaker 2: immediate suspects of that, but that's definitely a possibility. But 1227 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,480 Speaker 2: there's one other theory that I explained in the book too, 1228 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,680 Speaker 2: which is possible that Tom Starr, her father in law, 1229 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:46,040 Speaker 2: may have finally reached the point where he couldn't control 1230 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,920 Speaker 2: her anymore. And it's also interesting to note for a 1231 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,240 Speaker 2: long time Tom Starr seemed to have kind of an 1232 00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,840 Speaker 2: arrangement because he had a very complicated relationship with tribal government, 1233 00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,200 Speaker 2: going back to political strife during the Trail of Tears, 1234 00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,040 Speaker 2: which is an their long story. But he'd sort of 1235 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,560 Speaker 2: made a truce with a government where I think, well, 1236 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 2: actually there was literally a truce I forgot about treaty, 1237 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:10,520 Speaker 2: but also latergrangement where as long as he didn't cause 1238 01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 2: too much trouble and kept whatever whiskey smuggling horse fencing 1239 01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,640 Speaker 2: like a little under the radar, a little manageable that 1240 01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,960 Speaker 2: they would turn a blind eye. And I think Bell 1241 01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,480 Speaker 2: Starr upset this arrangement, and like I was saying, she 1242 01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:27,520 Speaker 2: was attracting too much trouble, too much attention, And in 1243 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,280 Speaker 2: the end, Tom Starr ended up getting sent to prison. 1244 01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:31,920 Speaker 2: And I think it was a couple of years, if 1245 01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,040 Speaker 2: I remember correctly, because it got to the point where 1246 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,960 Speaker 2: it was almost like a campaign of harassment where the 1247 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,800 Speaker 2: tribal government started really like pursuing other family members as 1248 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,439 Speaker 2: a as a way to kind of get Sam Star 1249 01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:46,200 Speaker 2: to turn himself in when he was on the run, 1250 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,120 Speaker 2: and to get her to tone down her activities. And 1251 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:50,520 Speaker 2: apparently it is what I think is there'd been some 1252 01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,760 Speaker 2: old whiskey smuggling thing on the books from years back 1253 01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,360 Speaker 2: that had never you know, nobody even bothered to in force, 1254 01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,600 Speaker 2: and finally out of nowhere, this old kind of patriarch character. 1255 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,960 Speaker 2: I believe that the tribal authority has collaborated with US 1256 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:05,880 Speaker 2: marshals to get him sent to prison for a couple 1257 01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,800 Speaker 2: of years. So he you can imagine he'd just come 1258 01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,080 Speaker 2: back from prison not that long before that. He's also 1259 01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,200 Speaker 2: not great health because of it. You imagine Tom Starr, 1260 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:18,320 Speaker 2: his son had died kind of defending her honor, getting 1261 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,960 Speaker 2: mixed up with her criminal exploits. She'd brought way too 1262 01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,760 Speaker 2: much heat from both tribal and federal authorities on their 1263 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,400 Speaker 2: own kind of criminal dealings and stuff like that, and 1264 01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:30,920 Speaker 2: heat in the end kind of was responsible for getting 1265 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,560 Speaker 2: him sent to prison after he had this great deal 1266 01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,280 Speaker 2: going where he was just kind of a prosperous member 1267 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:40,439 Speaker 2: of the community rancher with some stuff going on under 1268 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,120 Speaker 2: the you know, under the radar. And it is possible 1269 01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:45,240 Speaker 2: that he finally reached the point where he just said, 1270 01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,200 Speaker 2: you know that something's got to be done. She just 1271 01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,720 Speaker 2: refuses to play by the rules and is kind of 1272 01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,760 Speaker 2: possibly even challenging his authority. That's that's a possibility too. 1273 01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,280 Speaker 2: I don't know, So it is possible that he is 1274 01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,360 Speaker 2: this sort of ultimate act, even though from all counts 1275 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,440 Speaker 2: they were quite close for most of the relationship and 1276 01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:03,960 Speaker 2: he kind of took her under a wing. But it 1277 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,800 Speaker 2: was again one of these kind of classic mafia stories 1278 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,360 Speaker 2: where he took her under his wing, brought her into 1279 01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,200 Speaker 2: the family, and she and her quest for power just 1280 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,080 Speaker 2: got too big for breeches or something like that just 1281 01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,080 Speaker 2: kind of got to bar and he in the end 1282 01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,160 Speaker 2: was like, all right, something's got to be done about this. 1283 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:21,680 Speaker 2: That is a possibility too. 1284 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,400 Speaker 1: That's my vote for the record, Tom Starr, that's my vote. 1285 01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:27,919 Speaker 2: If it is true. He truly was, And I write 1286 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,160 Speaker 2: about Tom Starring the book with a great deal of 1287 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,360 Speaker 2: I mean he was. He definitely was a criminal and 1288 01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,640 Speaker 2: probably also a murderer, but a great deal of regard 1289 01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:39,840 Speaker 2: because he he did lead this exceptional I mean criminal regard. 1290 01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:43,320 Speaker 2: But he was as a as a political rebel earlier 1291 01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,600 Speaker 2: when he'd led this kind of rebellion against the Cherokee 1292 01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:50,200 Speaker 2: government just after the Trail of Tears as a political rebel, 1293 01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,320 Speaker 2: and the later as kind of a warlord, and then 1294 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,200 Speaker 2: later is kind of a I guess you would say, 1295 01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,440 Speaker 2: kind of a mafia don of sorts. He was very cutting, 1296 01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,439 Speaker 2: you know, he managed every like I said everyone else 1297 01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:03,840 Speaker 2: in Belstone, every other man died young of gunfire, and 1298 01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:07,600 Speaker 2: he did not. He died relatively prosperous at an old age, 1299 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,280 Speaker 2: after a lifetime of crime, after a lifetime of outwitting 1300 01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,400 Speaker 2: his enemies, after a lifetime of you know, of always 1301 01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,520 Speaker 2: coming out on top. So I, you know, I in 1302 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,840 Speaker 2: the book I write about him is almost with awe. 1303 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:21,919 Speaker 2: Even though granted he was a criminal, but a sort 1304 01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,280 Speaker 2: of you know, the sort of respect you have for 1305 01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:28,200 Speaker 2: a criminal mastermind. I think he definitely was just a 1306 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 2: really interesting and captivating individual, and he led her remarkable 1307 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,440 Speaker 2: life and outsmarted everyone in the end. 1308 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,520 Speaker 1: Who got her land that. 1309 01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:42,080 Speaker 2: I don't know. I assume it went to another Cherokee citizen. 1310 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,760 Speaker 2: I do know they tore down the cabin youngers be. 1311 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:47,520 Speaker 2: It was around for a while and there's some old 1312 01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,880 Speaker 2: pictures of it. Someone took him, I remember the late 1313 01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,800 Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, but eventually it was torn down. 1314 01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,760 Speaker 2: I assume it passed on to a tribal citizen mate 1315 01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,240 Speaker 2: at this point. I don't know exactly it's I think 1316 01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,200 Speaker 2: it's own private now. I don't know who, but it 1317 01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,440 Speaker 2: is cool if you want to see her grave, because 1318 01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,680 Speaker 2: she was buried right next to her cabin. You can 1319 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:08,720 Speaker 2: drive to Oklahoma. I'd remember off the top of my 1320 01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,760 Speaker 2: head exactly where, but in the Cherokee Nation, go right, 1321 01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:13,640 Speaker 2: you know this point of the road where you stop, 1322 01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:15,960 Speaker 2: get off, walk just a little bit into the woods 1323 01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:18,440 Speaker 2: and you can still see her grave with a tombstone 1324 01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:20,640 Speaker 2: that her daughter had made for her, and there is 1325 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,440 Speaker 2: kind of a replica cabin. Someone built a log cabin 1326 01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,640 Speaker 2: that looks a little bit like her original one not 1327 01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,640 Speaker 2: far away, but her original cabin is gone. You know. 1328 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:32,360 Speaker 1: To wrap this up, why was it important do you 1329 01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:37,520 Speaker 1: think for you to separate the myth from the facts 1330 01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:40,720 Speaker 1: of this case? You know, she has a fantastical story, 1331 01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,880 Speaker 1: it sounds like legitimately, and then there's you know, all 1332 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,240 Speaker 1: of these other things that probably have been attributed to 1333 01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:49,920 Speaker 1: her that we aren't sure. Why do you think it 1334 01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:51,480 Speaker 1: was important to set the record straight. 1335 01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:53,440 Speaker 2: Well, as I say at the end of the book, 1336 01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:55,800 Speaker 2: I think you have to be careful as a nation 1337 01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,440 Speaker 2: glamorizing crime and celebrating criminals, you know, I mean, that's 1338 01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:02,920 Speaker 2: you don't want to celebrate that per se. But I 1339 01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,160 Speaker 2: do think just from a historical perspective, you do want 1340 01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:09,640 Speaker 2: to at least recognize trailblazers because they they serve an 1341 01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:13,560 Speaker 2: important cultural role, regardless of you know, an historical role, 1342 01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,040 Speaker 2: and she is an important cultural figure. I think she 1343 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:20,040 Speaker 2: is an important historical figure. Yeah, and she was a trailblazer, 1344 01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,480 Speaker 2: even though it was, for better or worse, a criminal trailblazer. 1345 01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:25,360 Speaker 2: But what she did was exceptional, Like I mean, nobody 1346 01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,600 Speaker 2: else was doing this. She rose the ranks of organized 1347 01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,920 Speaker 2: frontier crime and eventually became the leader of a gang 1348 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,160 Speaker 2: in Cherokee, organized crime essentially at a time when when 1349 01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,480 Speaker 2: a woman couldn't open a bank account, you know, all 1350 01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:40,320 Speaker 2: these things would have would have been almost impossible. And 1351 01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,800 Speaker 2: she just sort of bent, as I said, but bent 1352 01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:45,560 Speaker 2: the arc of destiny, you know, just through sheer force 1353 01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,880 Speaker 2: of will and bravado. And she she definitely was a 1354 01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,720 Speaker 2: was a trailblazer, and and and by and then that 1355 01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,840 Speaker 2: regard important historically, and I think that's why I really 1356 01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,880 Speaker 2: wanted to try to tell as true a history as 1357 01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,840 Speaker 2: I could about her life, because you you have these older, 1358 01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:05,400 Speaker 2: very fancified legends about her, and there are a lot 1359 01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:07,960 Speaker 2: of tall tales, and so you don't you don't want 1360 01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:09,760 Speaker 2: it just to be a just to be a colorful 1361 01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,840 Speaker 2: legend full of exaggerations. But then, like I said, you 1362 01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:15,360 Speaker 2: also have a lot of these detractors who've kind of 1363 01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:17,640 Speaker 2: downplayed her role and say, oh, she was just this 1364 01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:21,400 Speaker 2: lonely woman who kind of shacked up with unsavory characters 1365 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:23,640 Speaker 2: and might have stolen a horse, and that's not true 1366 01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:25,840 Speaker 2: at all. I thought it was really important just because 1367 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,360 Speaker 2: she was such a singular figure and was such a 1368 01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,800 Speaker 2: trailblazer to try to tell her story as truthfully as 1369 01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:32,200 Speaker 2: I could. 1370 01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:46,440 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 1371 01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,560 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All About the 1372 01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:52,760 Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and 1373 01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:56,080 Speaker 1: Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true 1374 01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,880 Speaker 1: crime podcast, tenfold More Wicked right here in this put 1375 01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,640 Speaker 1: cast feed, scroll back and give them a listen if 1376 01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,200 Speaker 1: you haven't already. This has been an exactly right production. 1377 01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:10,760 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is 1378 01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:15,560 Speaker 1: Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis 1379 01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:19,720 Speaker 1: Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced 1380 01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:24,000 Speaker 1: by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked 1381 01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,920 Speaker 1: Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and 1382 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:30,520 Speaker 1: on Twitter at tenfold More. And if you know of 1383 01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,000 Speaker 1: a historical crime that could use some attention from the 1384 01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:36,760 Speaker 1: crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info at 1385 01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:40,840 Speaker 1: Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for true 1386 01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:49,160 Speaker 1: crime authors for Wicked Words