Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back Bob Left stepod podcast. My guest
Speaker 1: this week is the one and only Tommy James. Tommy,
Speaker 1: good to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Great to be with you. So you're going on the
Speaker 1: road during the era of COVID. What is that like? Well,
Speaker 1: you know something, we were down for a year and
Speaker 1: a half. We didn't we didn't perform our you know,
Speaker 1: it was from February of two, just recently and uh so,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like being an athlete who stops. Who
Speaker 1: stops being an athlete for a year and a half
Speaker 1: and your your your muscles get all saggy and you
Speaker 1: you know, when you go back out, you're not You're
Speaker 1: not sure what's going to happen. And so that's what
Speaker 1: I felt like. We have just completed our seventh concert
Speaker 1: after COVID, and uh, you know, I get stronger and
Speaker 1: stronger at each show. So I feel pretty good now.
Speaker 1: The first couple of shows were crazy. I was forgetting
Speaker 1: the words to Hanky Panky and that's hard to do.
Speaker 1: That's very There's only six of them, so so at
Speaker 1: any rate, uh, uh, you know, I'm feeling pretty good now.
Speaker 1: We're we're we're in St. Louis this week and uh
Speaker 1: so you know it's uh getting back out in the
Speaker 1: road and mixing it up with the fans feels really good.
Speaker 1: What about COVID and the fan do you have any
Speaker 1: problem people anxious about attending since you know a lot
Speaker 1: of older demo people want to come to your show. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, we weren't sure what was going to happen, uh,
Speaker 1: if people are gonna come back to but these these
Speaker 1: folks are ready to party, and it's it's very I'm
Speaker 1: very pleasantly surprised. Um, there's only been a couple of
Speaker 1: places where uh, masks were required. I don't know how
Speaker 1: you go to a rock concert with a mask on, um,
Speaker 1: you know, singing along and whooping and hollering. It's pretty tough.
Speaker 1: But um, uh, you know it's funny. As soon as
Speaker 1: we get there, people seem to just rip the masks
Speaker 1: off and uh so everybody is is ready to go,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I'm not I'm not really concerned.
Speaker 1: I had COVID uh last December. In fact, Christmas Eve
Speaker 1: they told me I had COVID. They said, Merry Christmas,
Speaker 1: you got COVID, And I was very very blessed and
Speaker 1: fortunate to not have a serious case at all. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have even known I had it if they hadn't
Speaker 1: told me. Our housekeeper basically told my wife and I that,
Speaker 1: uh she had tested positive in December of and so
Speaker 1: we had a lab. The lab came out and we
Speaker 1: we both tested and I she she was negative. I
Speaker 1: was positive. So all I can say is I was.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have known I had it if I hadn't
Speaker 1: have been told. So thank God. And uh so, I
Speaker 1: you know, I have whatever natural immunity you get, and
Speaker 1: uh so, I feel pretty good. I feel I feel
Speaker 1: very confident out in the road. Now. Okay, Tommy, we
Speaker 1: heard recently that your wife wasn't doing so well. What's
Speaker 1: up with that? Well, Linda has MS and she's had
Speaker 1: it since uh oh nine. She was diagnosed with it,
Speaker 1: and it's progressive and it's part of our life now.
Speaker 1: MS is a really spooky disease because everybody gets it
Speaker 1: different and essentially, the the the lining around the nerves
Speaker 1: um it's called milon and uh it gets inflamed and
Speaker 1: when it does, it leaves scars. And when it leaves scars,
Speaker 1: the electrical impulses can't get in and out, so it's
Speaker 1: essentially paralyzing. And so it's progressive and it's just the
Speaker 1: way it is and we gotta live with it. So
Speaker 1: your wife Linda is a practical matter. Now, what's her
Speaker 1: life look like? How mobile is she? Well, she's she's
Speaker 1: not mobile at all. She's pretty much better ridden now
Speaker 1: and that's just the way it's going to be. Occasionally
Speaker 1: we can use a wheelchair, but pretty much she's ah,
Speaker 1: she's an invalid, and so we have a team of
Speaker 1: nurses and I'm a caregiver in between doing Tommy James stuff.
Speaker 1: So that's just the way it is. Thank you for asking.
Speaker 1: So when you do a show t me, the audience
Speaker 1: expects the hit. Do you ever not play one of
Speaker 1: the hits? And what's the reaction? Yeah? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: we we get requests for so many more than we
Speaker 1: can do during you know, an hour and a half.
Speaker 1: We we probably could play for three hours if we, uh,
Speaker 1: if we were to do more of the more of
Speaker 1: the hits and more of the big album cuts and stuff.
Speaker 1: But I'm very honored and flattered. During that time, we
Speaker 1: get requests for all kinds of stuff and h every
Speaker 1: now and then we throw new stuff into the show,
Speaker 1: but we've only got so much time, so we try
Speaker 1: to cram as many of the big songs and two
Speaker 1: into that much time as we can. I wanted to
Speaker 1: tell you I read your stuff all the time, and
Speaker 1: I am really knocked out. I love, I'm very honored
Speaker 1: to do this with you. And uh, uh you're extremely articulate,
Speaker 1: and you are saying the things that all of us
Speaker 1: need to know. You know, um who are in the business,
Speaker 1: and uh, you have a very keen eye. And and
Speaker 1: I must say I'm very impressed with your writing and
Speaker 1: your insights and things, and I mean that sincerely. Well,
Speaker 1: you know this is an audio podcast, so people can't
Speaker 1: see me smiling. Thanks so much. But since we're on
Speaker 1: the laudatory path, you wrote one of the best rock
Speaker 1: biographies ever, the first and for first and for most.
Speaker 1: It hits the number one criterion of writing. It's extremely
Speaker 1: readable because I certainly read about it, read it and
Speaker 1: wrote about it when it came out. But I was
Speaker 1: reviewing it last night, my girlfriends, well, what's going on?
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blah, And I said none. I said,
Speaker 1: this is the type of book. You start reading it,
Speaker 1: you can't stop. It's just done so well. I've read
Speaker 1: a million of these things, and that's why I said
Speaker 1: great things about it when I did read it. But
Speaker 1: I really have to put that fourth now. The other
Speaker 1: thing that's amazing in your career. You really made it
Speaker 1: as a teenager. Yeah, when he when Hanky Panky. When
Speaker 1: Hanky Panky was a hit, how old were you? Uh, Well,
Speaker 1: when I recorded it, I was sixteen when it hit.
Speaker 1: It was two and a half years later, so I
Speaker 1: was I had just I was just turning nineteen. Uh.
Speaker 1: I had been in a band though since I was twelve.
Speaker 1: If you can believe that, I started my first rock
Speaker 1: band back in my hometown of Niles, Michigan, when I
Speaker 1: was twelve, uh and played the seventh grade variety show
Speaker 1: and we ended up keeping the band together. We got
Speaker 1: such a great response, we kept the band together, and
Speaker 1: uh I started uh performing you know, at the y
Speaker 1: m c A. And dances all over town and wherever
Speaker 1: they'd have us. And when I was fourteen years oh,
Speaker 1: I made my first record, and that was I got
Speaker 1: a job in a local record shop and one of
Speaker 1: the distributors from an outfit called singer one stop in Chicago,
Speaker 1: you know, would would service all the mom and pop
Speaker 1: record stores, and Niles Michigan was one of them. And
Speaker 1: he came in and we got to talk, and I
Speaker 1: was fourteen years old, and I told him I had
Speaker 1: a band, and he had a little studio up in Hastings, Michigan.
Speaker 1: I said, uh. He said, why don't you come up
Speaker 1: and record something? So I said, well, yeah, so I
Speaker 1: did and that was our first record. It was a
Speaker 1: cover of the Fireballs record Long Ponytail. And so that
Speaker 1: was my first recording experience on a little label called
Speaker 1: north Way Sound. And then two years later, um, a
Speaker 1: local disc jockey was starting to record. Well wait, Lech,
Speaker 1: let's let's stop for a second. So you were born
Speaker 1: and your first you in what town? I was born
Speaker 1: in Dayton, Ohio. And spent about ten minutes and what okay?
Speaker 1: And what did your parents do in Dayton? My folks
Speaker 1: managed a hotel. My father actually managed a hotel and
Speaker 1: he was in the hotel business in Dayton, and uh.
Speaker 1: We soon left after that and moved to South Bend, Indiana,
Speaker 1: where he managed another hotel. And you know, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like being a military kid and go ahead. No,
Speaker 1: So he was managing a hotel. South Bend is a
Speaker 1: home of Notre Dame. How big hotel was it? Well,
Speaker 1: I suppose a medium sized hotel. Wasn't huge. It was
Speaker 1: called the LaSalle Hotel. And uh he stayed there for
Speaker 1: many years. And uh, I my mother and my dad
Speaker 1: and I there was I was an only child, lived
Speaker 1: in South Bend and until I was seven years old,
Speaker 1: and then we moved to Niles, Michigan, which was just
Speaker 1: over the state line in Michigan. Okay, but do you
Speaker 1: still work in the same hotel? Yes, Okay. So you
Speaker 1: know there's the Helloise books or the Eloise books. Hellowise
Speaker 1: was the cleaning person Eloise books about living at the plaza.
Speaker 1: What's it like when your father runs a hotel? Do
Speaker 1: you hang out at the hotel? Well, sometime we would
Speaker 1: go down and we'd have lunch there down down in
Speaker 1: the coffee shop. Sometimes my mom and I get my
Speaker 1: hair cut in the hotel barbershop. You know, they had hotels,
Speaker 1: especially ones that are on a corner, you know, have
Speaker 1: all kinds of other little businesses. I if I hadn't
Speaker 1: have done the music business, I would have probably gotten
Speaker 1: to the hotel business. I loved hotels. I love sitting
Speaker 1: in the lobby looking at the beautiful furnishings and the ceilings,
Speaker 1: and I loved it ever since I was a little kid. So, um,
Speaker 1: it's probably a good thing I played guitar though, just
Speaker 1: as as I looked back. So anyway, we moved to Niles, Michigan,
Speaker 1: and when I was seven years old, and I grew
Speaker 1: up there. I went to school in high school there
Speaker 1: and at the same time, Uh God, bless that little
Speaker 1: record shop, because I got a job there. And before
Speaker 1: before you get there, you're growing up. What kind of
Speaker 1: kids are you? Are you smart? Are you good in school?
Speaker 1: You're bad in school? You're a loner? You remember the group?
Speaker 1: What was your identity growing up? Oh? I was pretty
Speaker 1: average in school. Uh. I certainly wasn't an honor student.
Speaker 1: I was had a lot of other activities going on,
Speaker 1: mostly of them having to do with music, you know,
Speaker 1: with the group. And uh, because I you know, by
Speaker 1: the time I was twelve, I had started the group.
Speaker 1: So I was a very average kid. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of anything. I played a little basketball, but not much.
Speaker 1: I Um, I had a lot of friends, Uh, some
Speaker 1: that I still go back to Niles to this very
Speaker 1: day and and power with you know have I've stayed
Speaker 1: in touch with many of them. We didn't have a
Speaker 1: big family, but I developed a whole lot of buddies. Okay,
Speaker 1: So how did you get a job at a record store?
Speaker 1: I was at the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1: Has happened so often in my life. Um, I was,
Speaker 1: you know, had a collection of records that was, you know,
Speaker 1: just stacks of records. I was buying records since I
Speaker 1: was a little kid. By the way, I left something
Speaker 1: out there. My mother used to have brought me a
Speaker 1: record player and um and records. Uh when I was
Speaker 1: you know, three years old and four years old, So
Speaker 1: I had a stack of records. Um. My grandfather bought
Speaker 1: me a ukulele and Arthur God for ukulele when I
Speaker 1: was four, and I started playing everything I could on
Speaker 1: that uku ale and started singing along with the radio
Speaker 1: and stuff. And so when I was nine years old,
Speaker 1: I saw Elvis on TV for the first time on
Speaker 1: the Ed Sullivan Show, and the ukulele went out the window,
Speaker 1: and I begged my mom for a guitar, uh, which
Speaker 1: she got me and started playing the acoustic guitar. The
Speaker 1: next year, when I was ten, I got my first
Speaker 1: electric guitar, and uh, you know, started playing as much
Speaker 1: electric guitar as I could hear in the radio. Okay,
Speaker 1: so how did you learn how to play the guitar?
Speaker 1: You owned it? But well, my mom tried to get
Speaker 1: me lessons and I didn't want to do that. I
Speaker 1: I taught myself how to play. I had taught myself
Speaker 1: to ukulele, and I figured I could teach myself the guitar,
Speaker 1: and uh, and I did so this very day. I
Speaker 1: still don't play the guitar properly. I pre tuned the
Speaker 1: guitar to an open e chord and uh, play rhythm.
Speaker 1: I can't play lead worth a damn because, uh, that
Speaker 1: requires a better knowledge of the guitar than I have.
Speaker 1: So I play and sing. That's my job, was to
Speaker 1: sing and accompany myself. Okay. And what was your first
Speaker 1: electric guitar? It was made by Slingerland Drums. It was
Speaker 1: a Slingerland guitar. It was I didn't either, but it was.
Speaker 1: It was Slingerland. And it was a jazz guitar. Uh,
Speaker 1: that had been and it was was owned by my
Speaker 1: barber and my barber who cut my d a off. Um,
Speaker 1: you know every other week. Uh, you know, it just
Speaker 1: seems something really immoral about that. Told me my sold
Speaker 1: me my first guitar and amp, and uh that was
Speaker 1: the thrill of my life, getting my first electric guitar. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you got the amp simultaneously. And what was the
Speaker 1: brand of the amp? It was an Airline amp by
Speaker 1: Montgomery Wards. I couldn't yet afford a silver tone from Sears,
Speaker 1: but that came later, Okay, that you know, really God
Speaker 1: bringing it back the catalog. Okay. A lot of people
Speaker 1: they started playing music when the Beatles broke, or even
Speaker 1: a little bit before, they played acoustic guitars in the
Speaker 1: folk era. You're now talking about the fifties. What is
Speaker 1: the music scene in the fifties and what is motivating
Speaker 1: you to play and want to have a band? Well,
Speaker 1: all I wanted to be was one of those rock
Speaker 1: and roll guys that I saw on Bandstein, And of
Speaker 1: course when I saw Elvis, I knew that was a
Speaker 1: job possibility. And so honestly, seeing Elvis had a great
Speaker 1: impact on me when I was nine years old, and
Speaker 1: I all I can say is that I the I
Speaker 1: learned everything on the radio and everything I could buy
Speaker 1: on record. And uh, I think the first guitar line
Speaker 1: that I ever learned was Sanford Clark playing the fool. Uh.
Speaker 1: A very famous guitar player name Al Casey played that lick.
Speaker 1: Are you a musician? By the way, we were all musicians, okay,
Speaker 1: we all started off. But but I am not a musician.
Speaker 1: I had guitars, etcetera, but I had no natural talent.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, you seem to know a lot about it,
Speaker 1: and that's I just kind of well, you know, when
Speaker 1: the Beatles hit, etcetera. And I grew up about fifty
Speaker 1: miles from New York City, one of the things you
Speaker 1: would do is go into Manny's and the other place street,
Speaker 1: uh and look at all the instruments, know all the brands,
Speaker 1: you go to see the acts. It's just that. And
Speaker 1: I was in bands, but not having the natural talent,
Speaker 1: you know, nothing, even when I never played a live
Speaker 1: gig or anything like that, although I had a lot
Speaker 1: of friends. But since you were there before and after,
Speaker 1: what was the change from your perspective when the Beatles
Speaker 1: hit as opposed to what had come before? You got
Speaker 1: motivated by Elvis all of a sudden the Beatles hit.
Speaker 1: Why to what degree is that different? Well, my perspective
Speaker 1: probably is different because I was working in the record shop.
Speaker 1: This is really the end of nine. And UM, whenever
Speaker 1: I think of the Beatles making it, I think of
Speaker 1: two things. Uh what Capitol Records did in the record shops,
Speaker 1: the mom and pop record shops. Uh, they had a
Speaker 1: U the Beatles are coming little poster, little little tripods
Speaker 1: sign shaped like a guitar, and the front of the
Speaker 1: album of the Beatles first album, UM was on the
Speaker 1: body of the guitar in the picture, and the Beatles
Speaker 1: are coming. The Beatles are coming, and their faces were
Speaker 1: turned backwards. And every week the distributor would come in
Speaker 1: and their faces would be turned slightly to the right,
Speaker 1: and and when their record came out they were facing
Speaker 1: exactly forward. Every week they would change this sign. And
Speaker 1: so I watched this happen. Uh as and of course
Speaker 1: that the Beatles exploded. But the second thing that happened
Speaker 1: was the Kennedy assassination. And I always associate, uh, the
Speaker 1: killing of John Kennedy with the Beatles making it, because
Speaker 1: they happened at exactly the same time. And UM, I've
Speaker 1: often said that I think the only thing that made
Speaker 1: bearable was the Beatles, because um, everything happened at once
Speaker 1: and anyway. In my head, I always think of those
Speaker 1: two things as being simultaneous because they were for me,
Speaker 1: and so when the b I remember hearing the Beatles
Speaker 1: though on jukeboxes I want to hold your hand, and
Speaker 1: I saw our standing there the first time, and I
Speaker 1: thought it was not very sophisticated. I thought it was,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of uh too, and then I went
Speaker 1: to try to play it. I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: ever tried playing the Beatles chord progressions, but uh, you
Speaker 1: could make your fingers bleed because they were they were
Speaker 1: very sophisticated. And I mean I remember going into the
Speaker 1: bridge of I want to hold your hand, you know,
Speaker 1: and when I think you know, the change is key
Speaker 1: completely and it's so subtle that you don't even realize
Speaker 1: hard Day's night. She loves you. Have you ever tried
Speaker 1: playing she Loves You? I mean, the chords that she
Speaker 1: Loves You are insane and and they certainly were for me.
Speaker 1: I was playing three chords, you know, I was playing
Speaker 1: you know cf G, you know E A b uh. Well,
Speaker 1: the Beatles changed everything and all of a sudden, I
Speaker 1: realized how good these guys were. And then my band
Speaker 1: we tried to do the harmonies, and uh, they were
Speaker 1: really something we had to rehearse. Day used to do
Speaker 1: and on our gigs that we would usually play three
Speaker 1: hours gigs, you know, nine to twelve or eight to
Speaker 1: eleven for teen dances. And on the third set we
Speaker 1: bought Beatle up fits. We actually bought them the boots,
Speaker 1: the Beatle wigs. Uh, And as soon as we went
Speaker 1: out on our third set, the girls started to scream.
Speaker 1: You know if we were you know, that was the
Speaker 1: only time, you know, if when we wore the Beetle outfits,
Speaker 1: when we took them off, they go, So, I mean
Speaker 1: I was into the Beatles. Okay, let's go back. You're
Speaker 1: twelve years old, you form a band. Certainly once the
Speaker 1: Beatles hit, everybody is playing and everybody wants to join
Speaker 1: a band. Was it hard to assemble a band? And
Speaker 1: what were the steps to working and to what degree
Speaker 1: did you have gigs from when you were twelve leading
Speaker 1: up to the Beatles. Sure, well, it's funny you say
Speaker 1: that because on the last week's radio show that I did,
Speaker 1: I talked about this is exactly what I talked about.
Speaker 1: You have a serious XM show every Sunday, right correct
Speaker 1: correct For those who might not know, it's called Getting
Speaker 1: Together and we're on at five o'clock. So anyway, Um,
Speaker 1: the bottom line is that when I started my band, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it was just the very beginning. This is
Speaker 1: nine I'm talking about. My first gig was sixty. I
Speaker 1: was thirteen, and suddenly everyone was starting a band. Um,
Speaker 1: the kid down the street. As long as you as
Speaker 1: long as you own some kind of guitar, electric guitar
Speaker 1: and knew a drummer, you could start a group. You'd
Speaker 1: probably get a sacks player from the school band and
Speaker 1: a kid down the street who played piano, who took
Speaker 1: piano lessons, and you had a group. So the was
Speaker 1: what were you going to do then? And the real challenge,
Speaker 1: of course, was too what are you gonna play? You know?
Speaker 1: And you had to play at the same time, you know,
Speaker 1: somebody had to count one to three, four and you
Speaker 1: had to start and then you had to end at
Speaker 1: the same time. That was a challenge. So what I'm
Speaker 1: saying is that, um, uh, it was uh, every kid
Speaker 1: started a band because you could see him on TV.
Speaker 1: All the time. When the Beatles came out, it just
Speaker 1: got worse. The Beatles really uh changed everything, as you know, Um,
Speaker 1: I think the hair was was was interesting because kids
Speaker 1: were growing there air long in school. It kind of
Speaker 1: they kind of felt they had the right to do
Speaker 1: it after no matter what the teacher said as because
Speaker 1: of the Beatles. I mean, the Beatles really changed everything immediately.
Speaker 1: So I loved So how do you get the gig
Speaker 1: at the record store and what's the experience working there? Well?
Speaker 1: I would buy my records at this particular record store.
Speaker 1: It was called the Spinnett Record Shop in Niles, Michigan,
Speaker 1: on Main Street. And I walked in one day and
Speaker 1: she was letting a kid go and he had come
Speaker 1: in late and to work, and it was about four
Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon after school, and she just came
Speaker 1: over to me. And she had known me because I
Speaker 1: bought records there and she knew that I was in
Speaker 1: a band and so forth. And she says, Tom, you
Speaker 1: want a job, and I looked her I said, yes
Speaker 1: I do. She said, all right, come in tomorrow after
Speaker 1: school and I'll show you what to do. And I
Speaker 1: worked there until I graduated from high school. Uh four
Speaker 1: years later, and thank god I did, because so many
Speaker 1: things happened to me. I it was like going to school,
Speaker 1: it was like going to college. I learned the business
Speaker 1: from a retail angle. I learned the trade papers, I
Speaker 1: learned the labels, I learned the publishers, I learned the songwriters,
Speaker 1: the artists and um, I just got a hell of
Speaker 1: an education there that I used to this very day.
Speaker 1: And that was I loved working there. I thought it was.
Speaker 1: It was the coolest job in town. I don't think
Speaker 1: you could have had a cooler job than working than
Speaker 1: selling records in the record store if you were at
Speaker 1: all music. Oh believe me. You know, people don't understand.
Speaker 1: You know, you couldn't even get a job at a
Speaker 1: record store. That was like the rate his job you
Speaker 1: could get. So since you were, since you were amongst
Speaker 1: the records, you know what, did you play all the
Speaker 1: records and just take advantage of being in the shop. Well?
Speaker 1: I did, But the problem was I also had to
Speaker 1: clean up, and I didn't want anybody seeing me mopping
Speaker 1: the floor, especially to girls, especially somebody else in a band.
Speaker 1: So I had to go down there immediately, Uh do
Speaker 1: the you know, and scrub the floors with the mop
Speaker 1: and get that out of the way before I could
Speaker 1: go behind the counter and be cool. So while the
Speaker 1: other kids were down at Venie's Sweet shop getting cokes
Speaker 1: and burgers after school, I was mopping the floor in
Speaker 1: the record shop trying to get cool before they would
Speaker 1: come up the street and stop at the record store.
Speaker 1: So anyway, UM, that was my life for four years.
Speaker 1: I forget the question you asked me, what you are
Speaker 1: answering it? But the only other thing is, since you're
Speaker 1: amongst all the records, did you play the right I
Speaker 1: sure as hell did, and uh, we'd have new records
Speaker 1: would come in. I think it was like every Wednesday.
Speaker 1: I think we'd have new new product come in from
Speaker 1: the distributor, and um yeah, I would play everything I
Speaker 1: could get my hands on. And that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I'm able to do what I do today
Speaker 1: with with on on serious, because um, you know, I
Speaker 1: got an education of all the stuff, and I played
Speaker 1: all those records from sixty two when I first got
Speaker 1: the job, when I graduated from high school and so
Speaker 1: and plus the fact I could promote my band out
Speaker 1: of the record shop. Dickie Frusci who was She was
Speaker 1: the She was like my second mother. She owned the
Speaker 1: place and she would let me um put posters in
Speaker 1: the windows of gigs and stuff like that, and she
Speaker 1: would allow me to promote my band out of the
Speaker 1: record shop. And that's how I got both of the
Speaker 1: record deals that I got. Okay, So ye have the
Speaker 1: Elvis in the fifties, before all this, you have you know,
Speaker 1: so many other acts birth of rock and roll, the
Speaker 1: sun acts that uh came up with him. Then we
Speaker 1: hit the sixties, we have the folk scene. Then we
Speaker 1: have the Four Seasons and the Beach Boys, but we
Speaker 1: also simultaneously have Bobby Rydell and all these other acts.
Speaker 1: Were you solely an Elvis kind of guy or did
Speaker 1: you like all that other music there were? I loved
Speaker 1: rock and roll, and I all I can say is that, yes,
Speaker 1: I loved Elvis. But by nineteen sixty, Uh, of course
Speaker 1: Elvis was drafted, and so there were a lot of
Speaker 1: other acts. I think, Uh, those years between Elvis leaving
Speaker 1: the States and and the British invasion, we're we're very strange,
Speaker 1: they're very schizophrenic. We'd have you know, puff the magic Dragon,
Speaker 1: and we'd have uh, Eddie Cochlan, we'd have you know,
Speaker 1: we'd have um, just this tremendous um. You know, you'd
Speaker 1: have a lot of instrumentals. You'd have a rock instrumental,
Speaker 1: but you'd also have Wonderland by Night by Bert Kempfort,
Speaker 1: you'd have uh. The Top forty was just inundated with uh,
Speaker 1: different kinds of music. Walter Brennan even had a hit,
Speaker 1: remember Old Yeller. Yeah, of course I remember. I'm just
Speaker 1: cracking up because I don't think think people young people
Speaker 1: can know who Walter Brennan is. Well, yeah, the real McCoy's.
Speaker 1: By time we got a hold of them, he was
Speaker 1: already at the end of his career, was bringing back
Speaker 1: the memories. So I was waiting for Gabby Hayes to
Speaker 1: get a record. I don't so Anyway, The bottom line
Speaker 1: was that there was such a mishmash of of music
Speaker 1: on Top four because what Top forty meant back then
Speaker 1: was the Top forty most popular records, whatever they were,
Speaker 1: so uh, it doesn't mean the same anymore. So when
Speaker 1: the Beatles came in the British Invasion, things kind of
Speaker 1: were clarified. You know, rock and roll was the Rolling
Speaker 1: Stones and the Animals and the Beatles, and you know,
Speaker 1: um uh it was. It was very different than the
Speaker 1: very early sixties. There was a lot of good R
Speaker 1: and B though in the early sixties, which which I'm
Speaker 1: I'm an RMB that I love early sixties R and B. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you're working in the record store, you get this offer,
Speaker 1: you make a record. A couple of questions you're gonna
Speaker 1: answer all at once. One did you think you're gonna
Speaker 1: make a career in music? B? How many bands did
Speaker 1: you go through? See? How did you end up recording
Speaker 1: Hanky Panky? Oh boy, this is a lot of stuff. Okay.
Speaker 1: Um yes, I honestly did believe I was going to
Speaker 1: make a career out of it. But that was my
Speaker 1: stupidity because h and my ignorance back then, because what
Speaker 1: I was doing was praying that I could make a
Speaker 1: career out of it. Actually and uh, but I remember
Speaker 1: when I made our first record, Long Ponytail. The name
Speaker 1: of my group, by the way, was the Tornadoes back then,
Speaker 1: and the Tornadoes that became Tom and the Tornadoes on
Speaker 1: the record of Long Ponytail and Judy on the other side.
Speaker 1: And um, I remember driving to the studio when I
Speaker 1: was fourteen, thinking that this is the beginning of something
Speaker 1: really important. It turned out to be, but of course
Speaker 1: I had no no way of really knowing that. Um uh.
Speaker 1: And I was so glad to have a record out.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how glad I was, how how
Speaker 1: happy I was, and how just seeing your name on
Speaker 1: a record and hearing your voice on a on a
Speaker 1: on a piece of avinyl. It was just the most
Speaker 1: incredible thing in the world. And I actually heard it
Speaker 1: a few times on the radio. But then, of course
Speaker 1: the record died and that was the end of that.
Speaker 1: So that was my core court recording career. So uh.
Speaker 1: The next one, as I said, came about about a
Speaker 1: year and a half, close to two years later, and
Speaker 1: I was sixteen, and uh this was the end of
Speaker 1: nineteen and I was I was asked if I would
Speaker 1: if I would record for this little label, Snap Records. Uh.
Speaker 1: Jack Douglas the not the famous Jack Douglas, but a
Speaker 1: disc jockey from Niles, Michigan. He was the morning man
Speaker 1: on de WI n I l was starting a little
Speaker 1: label and when he asked me to do it, I
Speaker 1: just I said, hell, yes, let's do it. And so
Speaker 1: we recorded uh uh four sides for him, and to
Speaker 1: the first two he put out, there were his song.
Speaker 1: We had to do his crappy little song in order
Speaker 1: to do our crappy little song. So we had to
Speaker 1: do We did. It was called Pretty Little Red Bird,
Speaker 1: and we put it out. We were embarrassed, but we
Speaker 1: put it out. Thankfully. It died quick and then we
Speaker 1: were going to put something out. And I happened to
Speaker 1: be out at a club one Sunday and I saw
Speaker 1: a group play a record called Hanky Panky, and um,
Speaker 1: the group was named the Spinners, but they weren't the
Speaker 1: R and B group The Spinners. There was a local group.
Speaker 1: And but I saw the reaction of the kids on
Speaker 1: the dance floor and they must have got asked half
Speaker 1: a dozen times to repeat Hanky Panky. The kids went
Speaker 1: nuts fort and I said, that's what we're gonna do,
Speaker 1: and I we went into the studio. I forgot the
Speaker 1: words to it too. I had there was a real song,
Speaker 1: and I went back to the record shop and we
Speaker 1: looked up Hanky Panky and it turns out that it
Speaker 1: was on the flip side of a record by the
Speaker 1: rain Drops called that Boy John and which was Jeff
Speaker 1: Berry and Ali Greenwich and uh, but it was taken
Speaker 1: off the air because, uh, that Boy John was about
Speaker 1: John Kennedy and John Kennedy had just been assassinated, and
Speaker 1: so the record came off the market and the B
Speaker 1: side went with it, so that then that's what it was,
Speaker 1: was on the flip side of that Boy John. And
Speaker 1: um So anyway, we went in the studio and all
Speaker 1: I could remember is my baby does the hanky Panky
Speaker 1: and a few we made up a few other lines
Speaker 1: and that was it, and we put the record out
Speaker 1: and it was a smash locally. I had just gotten
Speaker 1: my first manager and his name was Frank Fabiano. That
Speaker 1: was isn't that a great name? Frank Fabia Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it and it's uh. And his father was a cohort,
Speaker 1: Frank Fabiano, Sr. Of al Capone in Chicago, and he
Speaker 1: Fabriano's owned the jukebox business within fifty miles. So Frank
Speaker 1: Fabriano Jr. Became our our first manager, and uh, hanky
Speaker 1: Panky actually went in the jukeboxes with printed you don't
Speaker 1: know how important this is, printed title strips. You know,
Speaker 1: you didn't have to write them by hand. They were
Speaker 1: printed professionally, and that was a big deal. You have
Speaker 1: no idea how thrilling that was. And so we're on
Speaker 1: all the jukeboxes and it made a lot of noise.
Speaker 1: We couldn't get go any further really than southern Michigan
Speaker 1: northern Indiana because we had no distribution. So UM the
Speaker 1: record again came and went. So when I graduated from
Speaker 1: high school in we were playing all those years. And
Speaker 1: when I graduated, I took my band on the road
Speaker 1: and we were playing. We got an agent out of Chicago,
Speaker 1: and this is right after high school, and we're playing
Speaker 1: UH six nights a week in clubs throughout the Midwest.
Speaker 1: And I'm playing Janesville, Wisconsin in early sixty six in
Speaker 1: this dumpy little club and right in the middle of
Speaker 1: my two weeks, the guy goes belly up because the
Speaker 1: I r S shuts him down for not paying his taxes.
Speaker 1: This true story. And so we go home feeling like dogs.
Speaker 1: And as soon as I get home. That's how God works, though,
Speaker 1: because as soon as I got home, UM, I got
Speaker 1: the call that changed my life. UH distributor in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1: Fenway Distributors in Pittsburgh calls me and tracks me down
Speaker 1: because one copy of The record ended up in Pittsburgh
Speaker 1: and they put it on. They played it at dances.
Speaker 1: The kids flipped, this is Hanky Panky I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: It goes on. And by the way, we had changed
Speaker 1: our name to the shan Delves when we made Hanky Pank,
Speaker 1: so um they they the kids went nuts for it. It
Speaker 1: It went on the radio. They bootlegged eighty thousand of
Speaker 1: them and sold them in ten days, and we were
Speaker 1: sitting at number one. That's just the hand of the
Speaker 1: Good Lord. I had nothing to do with that. Only
Speaker 1: in America. Only in America could something like that happened.
Speaker 1: And they tracked me down because it said Niles Michigan
Speaker 1: on the labels Snap Records, Niles Michigan. Who do they
Speaker 1: call the record shop that I used to work in.
Speaker 1: All these little miracles happened one right after another, and
Speaker 1: she gives him did she gives him my home phone number?
Speaker 1: And I just happened to be home at that exact
Speaker 1: minute because we got let We got let go from
Speaker 1: the club who went to the I R S shutdown.
Speaker 1: So if all those things hadn't happened in a row.
Speaker 1: The longer I'm in this business, the more I realized
Speaker 1: what a million to one shot. And I'm very, very thankful.
Speaker 1: I I can't tell you how how thankful I am
Speaker 1: to have had those things happen, all those little miracles
Speaker 1: in a row. And well, okay, in the interim, your
Speaker 1: girlfriend gets pregnant and you get married, Yes, I do.
Speaker 1: What the hell is going through your mind when that happens.
Speaker 1: I wish somebody had sent me to my room. All
Speaker 1: I can say is is that, uh, things just sort
Speaker 1: of happened to me quickly. Um. I was a senior
Speaker 1: in high school and my girlfriend that I've been going
Speaker 1: with for a couple of years, Diane, uh, informed me
Speaker 1: that she was going to have a baby. I'm a senior,
Speaker 1: she's a senior. We go to we went to different schools.
Speaker 1: I was in study hall in April of sixty five.
Speaker 1: I get handed a blue slip. It says it's a boy.
Speaker 1: I said what, And of course I knew it was
Speaker 1: going to happen rather soon, but I didn't know what
Speaker 1: was going to happen that day. And the office came
Speaker 1: down and handed me a slip of paper that said
Speaker 1: it it's a boy. So I had to leave school
Speaker 1: and I went down to the office and told him,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I have to leave. My wife's having a baby,
Speaker 1: so that they didn't know anything. They said, what So
Speaker 1: I left and I went over to St. Joseph Hospital
Speaker 1: in South Bend, and sure enough I was a dad.
Speaker 1: So Um, basically what happened is, uh, Diane and I
Speaker 1: lived at my parents house until I graduated from high school.
Speaker 1: She had to she had to quit school obviously, and
Speaker 1: so I couldn't work in the record shop and play
Speaker 1: teen dances anymore. I had to make a living, so, uh,
Speaker 1: I didn't. I almost took a day job. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is the whole thing about I don't know how
Speaker 1: far you want to get into this because I'm I'm
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm rambling on, but it's all Oh no,
Speaker 1: this is all great stuff. Is exactly what I want.
Speaker 1: So tell me about almost taking a day job. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there was a there was a store called John's
Speaker 1: Bargain Store in South Bend, Indiana, and they wanted to
Speaker 1: hire me as a manager right out of high school.
Speaker 1: And uh, I said no, no, no, let's say I
Speaker 1: Actually the day I drove over there um to to
Speaker 1: take this job, I got about halfway there and I
Speaker 1: stopped the car. So I can't do this. I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to be a musician. I can't do this. What am
Speaker 1: I gonna do? I'm just gonna end everything right here
Speaker 1: and sell T shirts and preparation hs the rest of
Speaker 1: my life? What am I gonna do? So? Uh? I
Speaker 1: turned the car around, went back home, and in about
Speaker 1: an hour and a half, I get a call from
Speaker 1: the drummer from that group, the Spinners that I saw play,
Speaker 1: Hanky Banky his name was Hank Randolph and called me
Speaker 1: and said, look, two of the other guys are drafted.
Speaker 1: I've got a bunch of gigs. Can can we can
Speaker 1: we put a group together to play six nights a
Speaker 1: week us God is God is really Yes, yes we can.
Speaker 1: So that honestly is how it happened. And I we
Speaker 1: started playing. We started a new group called the Coachman
Speaker 1: spelled with a K and uh. That was the group
Speaker 1: that I ended up taking uh through the Midwest, you
Speaker 1: know that I ended up playing with in james Ville
Speaker 1: when when we got let go, that was that was
Speaker 1: the group. So that's how fast it all happened. And
Speaker 1: I went when I went back, and of course I'm
Speaker 1: sending money home every week being trying to be a
Speaker 1: good dad and a husband. Um, that's how that happened.
Speaker 1: I mean, where are Diane and the boy today? Brian
Speaker 1: lives about thirty miles from me here in New Jersey.
Speaker 1: He's uh uh married to a great gal. Uh uh.
Speaker 1: He is a design engineer in New York, goes back
Speaker 1: and forth from Jersey to New York. And uh, I
Speaker 1: love him dearly and he's my only child as well.
Speaker 1: And Diane, we're all friends. Uh still I'm I'm married again,
Speaker 1: but uh, Diane and I are still friends. And she's
Speaker 1: still back in Niles, Michigan. She's remarried, and uh we
Speaker 1: all care about each other. Strangely enough, isn't that something
Speaker 1: all's well, that ends well? Okay, So Hanky Panky is
Speaker 1: a local hit. You go to New York to get
Speaker 1: a record deal. Tell us how you end up on
Speaker 1: Roulette Records? Oh god, okay, you want the full blast?
Speaker 1: Don't absolutely all? Right? Well, Um, when Hanky Panky broke
Speaker 1: out in Pittsburgh, it was a major market, so that
Speaker 1: was a big deal. And I went to Pittsburgh at
Speaker 1: their request and did local TV, and uh I had
Speaker 1: to pick up another band because I couldn't put the
Speaker 1: original back together, and so I UH, I got my
Speaker 1: first manager in my first manager after Hanky Panky in Pittsburgh,
Speaker 1: UM and UH got a new group from Pittsburgh that
Speaker 1: became the new Shandls, And a week later we were
Speaker 1: in New York selling the Master and it was amazing.
Speaker 1: I had never been to New York, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: a hic from Niles, Michigan. And we make all the rounds.
Speaker 1: We pick up fella by name of Chuck Ruben. Bob
Speaker 1: Mack was the fellow who became my first manager and
Speaker 1: who was the disc jockey who played Hanky Panky first
Speaker 1: on UH dances that he he had. So UM we
Speaker 1: go to New York and make the rounds. Bob Mack
Speaker 1: myself and felt the name of Chuck Rubin who's a
Speaker 1: booking agent, and we went to UH CBS and got
Speaker 1: a yes because we had a regional breakout in the
Speaker 1: trade papers with Hankey Pankey and from making it in Pittsburgh,
Speaker 1: so we got We've got a yes from CBS. We
Speaker 1: got a yes from Rona Lexembourg at EPIC, we got
Speaker 1: a yes from um Our c A, we got a
Speaker 1: yes from Kamas Sutra. I don't know if you remember.
Speaker 1: Camasuit director Ore rd Rip was all these people have
Speaker 1: become my friends over the years. But got a yes
Speaker 1: from camas Sutra and yes from Atlantic, and so I
Speaker 1: was on cloud nine. We just got a yes. We
Speaker 1: never got turned down, didn't get it turned down every anywhere.
Speaker 1: So I went to bed feeling really good that night.
Speaker 1: By the way, the last place they went to was Roulette. Uh.
Speaker 1: And because I was just too tired, I went back
Speaker 1: to the hotel. Bob and Chuck took the record to Roulette.
Speaker 1: Morris Levy was out of town, so Red Schwartz, who
Speaker 1: was the promotion man, took the record and played it
Speaker 1: and uh, and they said, yeah, they wanted it. So
Speaker 1: the following morning, I slept thinking we were going to
Speaker 1: be with one of the big corporate labels and probably
Speaker 1: CBS or r C A and uh. The next morning
Speaker 1: I get up and the phone starts ringing and it
Speaker 1: was all the record companies that had said yesterday before,
Speaker 1: And one after another they called up and said, listen, Tom,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, but we gotta pass. What do you
Speaker 1: mean you gotta pass? I thought we had a deal,
Speaker 1: and uh, so I Finally Jerry uh uh, Jerry Wexler
Speaker 1: at Atlantic told me the truth that Maurice Levy from
Speaker 1: Roulette had called up all the other labels and threatened
Speaker 1: them and basically said, this is my fucking artist, excuse
Speaker 1: my French back off. And that's how we talked to
Speaker 1: right out on the movies. So uh he uh he
Speaker 1: literally backed him down, including CBS. And I was apparently
Speaker 1: going to be on Roulette. It was the first offer
Speaker 1: I couldn't refuse. And we go and uh so, uh,
Speaker 1: I go to Roulette and I meet all these people
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, Morris, as I said, was right
Speaker 1: out of the movies, Morris Levy from Roulette. He was
Speaker 1: every bit of gamester and he talked like this, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, and uh you shook hands with him.
Speaker 1: It was like grabbing a catcher's mith. That's all I
Speaker 1: can and he but he was fascinating. You couldn't take
Speaker 1: your eyes off the guy he was. He was like
Speaker 1: a great actor and so at any rate. H he
Speaker 1: explained if we how it was gonna work, We're gonna
Speaker 1: do this, we're gonna do that, some of that over there,
Speaker 1: and I meet Red Schwartz, and I meet uh oh
Speaker 1: so uh uh, who's the big dish shockey? Not Alan Freed,
Speaker 1: the guy who took his Oh god, Mariva Ka Marya
Speaker 1: Kay was sitting in the office, as was George Goldner,
Speaker 1: who we had been to we had seen the day
Speaker 1: before at Red Bird Records, and he gave us a
Speaker 1: yes too. By the way, I forgot to mention him.
Speaker 1: So they're all sitting in Morris's office and Okay, all
Speaker 1: I can say is that, you know, they brought out
Speaker 1: the contracts uh, and we signed then and there and
Speaker 1: and he says to me, and this was this ended
Speaker 1: up being the subtitle of our book. He said, I
Speaker 1: hope you're ready to kick, because you're going on one
Speaker 1: hell of a ride. He actually said that to me.
Speaker 1: I said, good, that's great. And so at any rate,
Speaker 1: I had no idea who I was rubbing shoulders with.
Speaker 1: I had no idea what was going on. We learned incrementally, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, we'd meet somebody in Morris's office and a
Speaker 1: week later we'd see him on TV uh being escorted
Speaker 1: by the police out of a warehouse in New Jersey.
Speaker 1: Is isn't that the guy who just met Morris's office?
Speaker 1: And that was true. That really happened, and it kept happening.
Speaker 1: We started recognizing famous gangsters, We started recognizing people that
Speaker 1: we knew from TV, and they were up in Morris's office,
Speaker 1: as was Cardinal Spellman. Uh you name it. They were
Speaker 1: up in Morris's office. And so anyway, Karen, who was
Speaker 1: Morris's secretary, explained who these people were and that this
Speaker 1: was the Genevese family. It turns out Roulette, in addition
Speaker 1: to being a functioning indie label, was also a front
Speaker 1: for the Genevese crime family. So this made life really interesting.
Speaker 1: We couldn't talk about any of this stuff. And uh so,
Speaker 1: while we're hanky panking and money, money and stuff that's
Speaker 1: very dark and sinister, story is going on behind us
Speaker 1: that we really couldn't say a word about. And a
Speaker 1: lot of people in the business knew, you know, but
Speaker 1: but but you know, the fans certainly didn't know it. Okay,
Speaker 1: this lad game needless just say, Morris ripped you off,
Speaker 1: but you were a big star. Would you have been
Speaker 1: as big without Roulette Records? I don't think so. In fact,
Speaker 1: I know so, because if we had gone with one
Speaker 1: of the corporate labels, every time I start to say
Speaker 1: something really bad about Roulette or Morris, I stopped myself
Speaker 1: because the truth is, if it wasn't for Morris LEEVI,
Speaker 1: there wouldn't have been a Tommy James Um if we
Speaker 1: had gone with one of the corporate labels. I can
Speaker 1: tell you right now, if we'd gone with CBS, we
Speaker 1: would have been turned over to an in house a
Speaker 1: and our guy, and that's the last you would have
Speaker 1: heard from us, especially with a record like Hanky Panky,
Speaker 1: you know, uh we would have and the competition would
Speaker 1: have been unbelievable. It was how did you ever have
Speaker 1: a get getting noticed? With all the competition from from
Speaker 1: any of these labels. And so at Roulette they actually
Speaker 1: needed us. They hadn't had a hit since the Essex
Speaker 1: in sixty three was easier said than done, and and
Speaker 1: uh so they were hurting for a hit, and so
Speaker 1: they gave us the keys to the candy store. They
Speaker 1: really did in every way I was. I learned my
Speaker 1: craft at Roulette. I would have never learned street level
Speaker 1: record business at any other label. And I certainly would
Speaker 1: have not been able to put my own production crew.
Speaker 1: They trusted me with putting my own production crew together
Speaker 1: and and uh, bringing in songwriters and and you know,
Speaker 1: songs from other labels and stuff. They trusted me to
Speaker 1: do all that that would have never happened at another label. Now,
Speaker 1: you had a lot of hits at Roulette. Some of
Speaker 1: these records, as we say, were just in. It was
Speaker 1: just in the grooves, just had to hear it. But
Speaker 1: what was their specials sauce to make sure one of
Speaker 1: your records was a hit? How much was muscle money
Speaker 1: or it was just the record? Well, how did they
Speaker 1: bring it to the top? Hey, blay to freaking record?
Speaker 1: All right, No, that's not true. That's I'm making that up. Um. Honestly,
Speaker 1: we were the biggest act on the label that helped
Speaker 1: a lot. Roulette was a well known label, so so
Speaker 1: it wasn't like, you know, they'd had Luke Christie, and
Speaker 1: they'd had Joey did and the Starlighters, and they had
Speaker 1: Jimmy Bone, Buddy Knocks, they had, oh god, the pony Tails.
Speaker 1: They had just a lot of hit records. They were
Speaker 1: great at selling singles and radio knew him. Red Schwartz,
Speaker 1: by the way, I credit more than anyone up there.
Speaker 1: Red Shorts taught me the radio business and he was
Speaker 1: a disc jockey himself from Philly, and he knew all
Speaker 1: these disc jockeys. He knew them all. He sat me
Speaker 1: down and made me learn the names of all these guys,
Speaker 1: who their kids were, who what their wives names were.
Speaker 1: When I talked to him, uh uh, you know, I
Speaker 1: could I talk to them as a friend. And uh
Speaker 1: we were we became a radio act more than that.
Speaker 1: You know, some acts are big concert acts, they're big songwriters.
Speaker 1: And we were a right we were created by radio.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the best way to do it,
Speaker 1: because that's you know, back then, on an a M.
Speaker 1: The a M stations, you played about a dozen you
Speaker 1: got on about you know, l S and Chicago and
Speaker 1: CFL and and ABC in New York and uh k
Speaker 1: R l A out out in l A and k
Speaker 1: UP our seat in San Francisco. You got about a
Speaker 1: dozen stations. You had the whole nation. A M radio
Speaker 1: was unbelieved evable. And the number of people that they covered,
Speaker 1: the you know LS at Night covered thirty eight states,
Speaker 1: for God's sake. And so what I'm saying is um
Speaker 1: Roulette was very good at promoting singles albums. They didn't
Speaker 1: do so much that came later, but um ah, singles
Speaker 1: was there Forte and Morris knew how to do it.
Speaker 1: And he used all independent distributors too. He could have
Speaker 1: been with anybody, but of course he couldn't have cheated
Speaker 1: as well. But uh, you know, and he used all
Speaker 1: indie distributors that he basically controlled. So honestly, at another label,
Speaker 1: I don't think we would have had any a fraction
Speaker 1: of the success that we had at Roulette. Okay, so
Speaker 1: the records you hit, they send you on the road.
Speaker 1: You come back to the office and Morris says, I'm waiting,
Speaker 1: which time are you talking about? Which I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1: If you read the book, he's constantly demanding new product, yes,
Speaker 1: while the other product is you know, hasn't fallen off yet.
Speaker 1: Well that's true. Um we were, we were. We were
Speaker 1: putting out five singles a year, and Morris would crack
Speaker 1: the whip for another single. But he was you know,
Speaker 1: what what do you would do is like he whatever
Speaker 1: your hit was, that became the name of your album,
Speaker 1: Like the first album was the Hanky Panky album. Could
Speaker 1: have called It's something else with Hankey Pap, but no,
Speaker 1: the Hanky. He knew how to sell stuff, uh, and
Speaker 1: and immediately went gold and the ultimately platinum. But but
Speaker 1: Hanky Packy the album made it right out of the box. Um,
Speaker 1: but you know he he that was That was probably
Speaker 1: more luck than anything else. They were not great at
Speaker 1: selling albums until Crimson and Clover. But the point I'm
Speaker 1: trying to make is that, Uh Morris, You're right. He
Speaker 1: always wanted more product, and so we were constantly I
Speaker 1: couldn't sleep until I had the next single in the camp.
Speaker 1: But that was good. That's why we had twenty three
Speaker 1: gold singles were lette okay, so you know the Hanky
Speaker 1: Panky was a cover. You need new records. How do
Speaker 1: you come up with the material? Well, this is another
Speaker 1: stroke of luck. I was you know, I the band
Speaker 1: could write somewhat. We we our second record, Say I Am,
Speaker 1: was by the way Lightning struck twice. We went back.
Speaker 1: Uh Bob Mack went back to the same record bin.
Speaker 1: He found Hanky Panky and and pulled the fireballs Say
Speaker 1: I Am, and Uh brought it to New York and
Speaker 1: we were in the in Bell Sound Studios doing a
Speaker 1: Hankey Pankey album, and he brought in Say I Am,
Speaker 1: and we learned it note for note, and that became
Speaker 1: our second gold record. So we were very lucky with that. Well,
Speaker 1: right then I met Richie Cordell and Bow Gentry. Richie
Speaker 1: Cordell Saltramachi and Bow Gentry. How did you meet him? Okay,
Speaker 1: um the Red Swartz secretary. Uh, Ronnie, she became well.
Speaker 1: I we started hitting it off and we began going out.
Speaker 1: And Uh, I was a married man, had no business
Speaker 1: doing this stuff, but shame on me, that's what I did.
Speaker 1: So Ronnie, I was going to take her out one
Speaker 1: night and I met her at her apartment and she
Speaker 1: had a roommate named Linda and not my landa another
Speaker 1: land and so um, Linda's boyfriend was this crazy little
Speaker 1: songwriter named Richie Cordell. And when I went to pick
Speaker 1: Ronnie up, I started. She had a little record player
Speaker 1: on the on the floor and UM some demos and
Speaker 1: I played a demo of a song UH called hold
Speaker 1: on to Him. And I played it and I said,
Speaker 1: who who is this? I said, this is a hit record,
Speaker 1: this is a smash. Who is this? She said, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's my roommate's boyfriend, Richie. You want to meet him?
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, Well, it turns out. All these guys
Speaker 1: were writers for Hardie RiPP over Cama Sutra. Richie and
Speaker 1: sal Uh and Bow Gentry were all um all writers
Speaker 1: over Cama Sutra. So the next night I went up
Speaker 1: and I met Richie, and Richie and I hit it off.
Speaker 1: He was like, you know, he was like a little
Speaker 1: mad scientist. I loved him and he became uh. He
Speaker 1: and Bow Gentry became my producers and songwriters. And the
Speaker 1: first record we put out was Its Only Love, written
Speaker 1: by Richie and salth Romachi, and that went top twenty.
Speaker 1: Didn't blow the doors down, but it was a big record.
Speaker 1: And then Bow and Richie brought me I think we're
Speaker 1: alone now. And when they brought it to me, it
Speaker 1: was a ballad. I mean it was, you know, not
Speaker 1: a real slow about but a slow mid temple ballad.
Speaker 1: And we went in the studio. As soon as I
Speaker 1: heard the hook, that's that's a smash. That what a
Speaker 1: great hook that is. And we went into the studio
Speaker 1: over at Allegro. I changed studios Allegro, which was at
Speaker 1: the basement of exteen fIF Broadway, um At anyway, So
Speaker 1: they we went in in the studio and that's where
Speaker 1: I came up, I said, why don't we speed this
Speaker 1: thing up? And I was playing the eighth notes, the
Speaker 1: doom doo doo doo doo doo doom doom do. I
Speaker 1: was That's what I was playing. I just came up
Speaker 1: with that on the guitar and we started UH doing
Speaker 1: the doing the demo with with sped up with Boasting
Speaker 1: in the league. So it came out great, and we
Speaker 1: took it back and played it for Morris and he
Speaker 1: loved it, and that was gonna be the next single.
Speaker 1: And so I got Jimmy Wissner. Uh. Karen asked me
Speaker 1: if I wanted an arranger, and I said, I remembered
Speaker 1: seeing Jimmy Wissner's name on a label of one to
Speaker 1: three by Lynn Barry a year before that, because I
Speaker 1: bought the record so I could learn how to play
Speaker 1: with my group. And so I said Jimmy Wissner and
Speaker 1: she said, yeah, I think so, So she calls Jimmy Wisner.
Speaker 1: He comes up the next day. So bo Richie, myself,
Speaker 1: and Jimmy Wissner became like the production team and UH,
Speaker 1: the engineer Bruce Staple was the fifth member of the team.
Speaker 1: But these guys had to deal with Cama Sutra. How
Speaker 1: did you get around that? Morris Levy? Morris Levy as
Speaker 1: it took, turns out put already ripping business over at
Speaker 1: Cama Sutra, and so he owed him a few favors.
Speaker 1: So he calls up already ripped. Morrise calls up already says, listen,
Speaker 1: my artists wants to do one of his songs with you,
Speaker 1: with you, with your with your couple of year guys.
Speaker 1: He said, I need him over here. Okay. So we
Speaker 1: got him, We got him, We got them all and
Speaker 1: they became our writers, uh and our producers. And that
Speaker 1: was the first production team that that we put together.
Speaker 1: And that was a lifesaver because I uh did not
Speaker 1: have the songs to further my career. So if if
Speaker 1: Bow and Richie hadn't come along at the moment they did,
Speaker 1: I don't know what would have become. My career would
Speaker 1: have probably ended with It's Only Love all I say,
Speaker 1: I am. So you have hit records. To what degree
Speaker 1: are you going on the road and what are your
Speaker 1: experiences on the road. Well, um, that summer of sixty
Speaker 1: we were on the road constantly. After Hanky Pank and
Speaker 1: um I I we were working with a lot of
Speaker 1: the other groups. I did my first arena dates I
Speaker 1: had never done before, the biggest crowds we ever worked too,
Speaker 1: um I had. I made a lot of friends in
Speaker 1: the business. Um it really was. Uh. You know, when
Speaker 1: you're when you're eighteen nineteen years old and you're out
Speaker 1: on the road with a hit record, life is good
Speaker 1: and uh you don't notice that you're burning the candle
Speaker 1: at both ends. You don't notice that you're dog tired.
Speaker 1: You know, you're just partying in the nighttime and traveling
Speaker 1: in the daytime. I remember we traveled in a station
Speaker 1: wagon and we hauled our own equipment. This is before
Speaker 1: got invented roadies and uh so, uh, you know it was.
Speaker 1: It was a real adventure that first year, but I
Speaker 1: loved it. I think of that first summer of sixty
Speaker 1: as the most fun part of my life. I think, So,
Speaker 1: who are you on the road with? And what was
Speaker 1: it like meeting those people? A year before are I
Speaker 1: had been selling records, selling all these people's records now
Speaker 1: I'm working with And I'll never forget the first big
Speaker 1: arena date that I played, uh in Montgomery, Alabama at
Speaker 1: the Civic Arena down there, and I'm working with uh
Speaker 1: Lou Christie. We were the opening act. Hanky Banky had
Speaker 1: just been on the charts about three weeks and we
Speaker 1: were the opening act and we opened and Luke Christie
Speaker 1: was on the show. Uh. This is about a year
Speaker 1: after he had lightning strikes and uh, he had so
Speaker 1: many hits and the animals and Hermann's Hermit's and they
Speaker 1: were all at their peak. I felt I felt like
Speaker 1: my voice was changing him. Tommy James. So I remember
Speaker 1: going up to Eric Burdon and introducing myself to him. Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm Tommy James. I want to and he goes, who
Speaker 1: the bloody hell are you? Who the bloody hell are you?
Speaker 1: And hey, they were animals right, So anyway, so Herman's
Speaker 1: Hermits couldn't have been nicer and they were. Uh. We
Speaker 1: spent the night partying with them. And uh. That was
Speaker 1: my first gig with Peter Noon and the Hermits. And
Speaker 1: I'm still working with him today on serious radio. Okay,
Speaker 1: what about the money? The what the money? Well, you're
Speaker 1: on the on the road. The act is getting paid something.
Speaker 1: You can see all the economics are completely different from
Speaker 1: what they are today. Hey, are you just getting a
Speaker 1: per diem and burning the kid on both ends, and
Speaker 1: you have no idea what's going on. It wasn't that bad.
Speaker 1: We were we were, we were. We were making I
Speaker 1: don't know the first summer, probably five thousand a night
Speaker 1: or something like that for the first few weeks, and
Speaker 1: it just went up incrementally from there with each record.
Speaker 1: Uh No, we made money on the road, and we
Speaker 1: made money from B M I from our paltry songwriting
Speaker 1: back then, and uh, mechanical royalties we just weren't getting.
Speaker 1: And that was a real interesting well showdown, I'll call
Speaker 1: it the um We knew. I knew because the guys
Speaker 1: were really salary musicians, but I knew that I was
Speaker 1: supposed to be getting royalties from selling all these records
Speaker 1: and they weren't. It wasn't happening. So Uh, I got
Speaker 1: a lawyer, uh I won't mention his name, and who
Speaker 1: went up to Morris Levy and he was gonna get
Speaker 1: my royalties. And he comes out and he's slapping Morris
Speaker 1: on the back. I knew that was bad sign. I
Speaker 1: knew that wasn't good. So at any rate, what happened was, uh,
Speaker 1: we were told, in no uncertain terms to be to
Speaker 1: not to push it, because what happened to Jimmie Rodgers
Speaker 1: could happen to us. And I guess you know what
Speaker 1: happened to Jimmy Rogers. He was left for dead on
Speaker 1: an l A freeway because he was uh suing for
Speaker 1: his royalties. And he was a very athletic guy, very muscular,
Speaker 1: in good shape, and he was he was never the
Speaker 1: same after that. And he he survived it, but just barely.
Speaker 1: And so we knew what could happen if we pushed it.
Speaker 1: And so the bottom line was I sort of took
Speaker 1: a salary for a while, uh in addition to but
Speaker 1: that was how I was gonna get and by the way,
Speaker 1: my writing moneys weren't going to come either, because don't forget,
Speaker 1: I was cross collateralized. Whoa, And so that I became
Speaker 1: very familiar with that term cross collateralized. That meant you
Speaker 1: weren't getting anything. So did you even get state did
Speaker 1: you even get statements? Uh? No? No. But we were
Speaker 1: having one hit after another and we're making a lot
Speaker 1: of money on the road, and I was we had
Speaker 1: to make a conscious decision do we try to go
Speaker 1: after our money because by this time we were good earners,
Speaker 1: as they say, So do we try to go after
Speaker 1: our money? Do we try? Do we sue him? What
Speaker 1: do we do? Or do we just go along to
Speaker 1: get along and keep having hits. So I think in
Speaker 1: Hindstein we probably did the right thing. We uh, we
Speaker 1: didn't make a big fuss every now and then I did,
Speaker 1: and I would I would get large chunks of money, um,
Speaker 1: you know, handed to me, but regular mechanical royalties when
Speaker 1: they were supposed to happen, weren't going to happen. So
Speaker 1: in the end I think I made the right decision.
Speaker 1: Plus now I get to tell the story. And so
Speaker 1: how big were these chunks of cash that Morris would
Speaker 1: give you? Oh sometimes twenty and thirty and forty, but
Speaker 1: not very often. And we figured out at the end
Speaker 1: that he ot us between thirty and forty million dollars
Speaker 1: um just in mechanicals and the publishing. I would have
Speaker 1: been a little bit more than it would have been
Speaker 1: a lot more than that actually, But um, the way
Speaker 1: this came to a head was amazing. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you want me to skip ahead and tell her.
Speaker 1: I don't know how much you wanted ye tell tell
Speaker 1: us how it came to a head. Well, Um, my
Speaker 1: accountant Aaron Scheckter well more Morris. Okay, Morris had left
Speaker 1: the country for a while. Ah. There was a gang
Speaker 1: war in seventy one in New York when the Gambinos
Speaker 1: were taking over uh the other families. Uh, and Morris
Speaker 1: was on the wrong side, and Morris left town. He
Speaker 1: and Nate mccallo, who was his bodyguard, went to went
Speaker 1: to Spain and they came back. Um. And while he
Speaker 1: was away in Spain, Uh, my accountant, um sort of
Speaker 1: did a tally. Only they didn't try to go after
Speaker 1: the books. Everybody tries to go after the book. He
Speaker 1: went after the labels that we're being printed, uh, by
Speaker 1: various printers. This tactic had never been tried before. I
Speaker 1: don't think anyway. We got an honest count from the
Speaker 1: labels that were printed certain discount you know for DJ
Speaker 1: copies and stuff like that and returns, but we got
Speaker 1: a pretty damn good count and it was somewhere between
Speaker 1: thirty and forty million dollars. And we He went to
Speaker 1: Morris with that information. When Morris got back, and Morris
Speaker 1: told him to know uncertain terms if he if he
Speaker 1: tried to use that against him. They'd be fishing him
Speaker 1: out of a river. So that was the end of
Speaker 1: my uh investigation of into Morris's bank roll. So um Anyway,
Speaker 1: shortly after that, um uh, Morris's partner up in up
Speaker 1: at Roulette, Tommy Everley, who, by the way, he became
Speaker 1: the head of the Genevese family uh uh. When Video
Speaker 1: Genevies died in prison h on Valentine's Day and sixty nine,
Speaker 1: Tommy Everley became that of the family. And he was
Speaker 1: then killed in seventy two and July of seventy two,
Speaker 1: and all hell broke loose at Roulette and I said
Speaker 1: to Morris, I'm out of here. I am out of here.
Speaker 1: He said, you ain't going anywhere. I said, I am
Speaker 1: out of here. I said, shoot me, I don't care.
Speaker 1: I'm done. I can't. I can't deal with this anymore.
Speaker 1: And I It took me two years of not recording anything,
Speaker 1: no more albums. Morris put out a few of the
Speaker 1: singles that had UH that were in the can, but
Speaker 1: I never did another album after that, And finally he
Speaker 1: let me go in seventy four and I went Fantasy.
Speaker 1: So I had one record out an m c A
Speaker 1: and then I had. Then I went to Fantasy Records
Speaker 1: out on it in Berkeley and got as far away
Speaker 1: from New York. Is like good for the next couple
Speaker 1: of albums. But anyway, that's a long story. Uh, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry I took us off. No, no, no, that's great.
Speaker 1: All this is great. Let's go back to some of
Speaker 1: the records needless to save between the Beatles Citty and
Speaker 1: sixty four and seventy one or so, there were many scenes,
Speaker 1: many developments. So when from May M to f and etcetera,
Speaker 1: how did you come up with Crimson and Clover. Well
Speaker 1: that's the moment of truth Crimson and Clover, because uh,
Speaker 1: we had come off a money money and then and
Speaker 1: Morris had a falling out with Bow and Richie. Richie
Speaker 1: came back, Bow went to Casnets and Cats and did
Speaker 1: bubble Gum records on LORI and Richie came with me
Speaker 1: and so we did money money together. We did h
Speaker 1: do oneto Me, We did a couple of other singles
Speaker 1: and do do something to Me? And then finally I
Speaker 1: just decided so much was going on in Um. We
Speaker 1: got Hubert Humphreys office called as he was running for president,
Speaker 1: and Hubert Humphreys office contacted Roulette and wanted to know
Speaker 1: if we would join him on the camp on the
Speaker 1: presidential campaign, which we did, and while I was on
Speaker 1: that campaign, the whole industry turned upside down. We left
Speaker 1: in August and we came back in November, and while
Speaker 1: we were gone, the industry had gone from singles to
Speaker 1: albums in ninety days. I couldn't believe it. When we
Speaker 1: left in August, the big acts were Gary Puckett, um Us,
Speaker 1: the Rascals, the Association, its writer. I'm leaving a lot
Speaker 1: of people out, but it was all singles. When we
Speaker 1: got back ninety days later, it was Led Zeppelin, Crosby,
Speaker 1: Stills and Nash, Joe Cocker, Blood, Sweat and Tears, Neil Young,
Speaker 1: all album acts. And really this started with the Sergeant
Speaker 1: Pepper album Company's real seeing how much money they were
Speaker 1: losing by not uh by not selling albums. And so
Speaker 1: the reason I'm telling you all this is because at
Speaker 1: that very moment uh AM Radio then turned into FM Radio.
Speaker 1: FM Radio was started playing rock and roll for the
Speaker 1: first time ever in um. Up until that time, FM
Speaker 1: was only for jazz and classical. Now they're playing rock,
Speaker 1: unheard of, So everything was in stereo. Everything had to
Speaker 1: sound good. At the same moments, technology was coming in
Speaker 1: from the Space program. We had multi tracks that were
Speaker 1: up to two tracks. Now we went from four track
Speaker 1: to track in about eighteen months. So everything was changing,
Speaker 1: and so we realized we had to produce ourselves. We
Speaker 1: had to write and produce ourselves or we were done
Speaker 1: and we had to sell albums. So it was just
Speaker 1: very lucky for us. We were working on a little
Speaker 1: record called Crimson and Clover, and Crimson and Clover was
Speaker 1: just us two of my favorite words. I put together,
Speaker 1: wrote it with a sort of a backwards three chord
Speaker 1: progression and um. We went in the studio and it
Speaker 1: came out great. In five and a half hours. We
Speaker 1: put the whole record together UM and with the tremolo effects.
Speaker 1: Everything yes, we had recorded I had that was me
Speaker 1: playing guitar. We played, I played the tremorlo guitar and
Speaker 1: just kind of serendipitous, I did at the end, why
Speaker 1: don't we put the voices through tremolo, And so that's
Speaker 1: how we did the face with the same tremolo that
Speaker 1: was on the guitar. We plugged the um UM the
Speaker 1: microphones into the guitar amp, Mike the guitar amp and
Speaker 1: ran it back into the board and so it was
Speaker 1: a really simple thing to do, but it made the record,
Speaker 1: and Crimson and Clover then became the biggest record, uh
Speaker 1: that we ever did. It sold five and a half
Speaker 1: million copies right there in nine But what I'm saying
Speaker 1: is that Crimson and Clover allowed us to make that
Speaker 1: jump from a M Top forty singles to FM progressive
Speaker 1: album rock. I don't think there's any record we ever
Speaker 1: put out that would have allowed us to do that
Speaker 1: in one shot like that. And so then the album
Speaker 1: came out and we were let's started really selling albums
Speaker 1: for the first time. The Crimson and Clover album went
Speaker 1: platinum and uh uh you know, we were suddenly selling
Speaker 1: albums and singles and UM, that was a huge, big deal. UM.
Speaker 1: It gave us the second half of our career and
Speaker 1: allowed me to do things I could never ever have
Speaker 1: done before UM in the studio. So we we became
Speaker 1: our own producers, our own songwriters. UM and UM life
Speaker 1: really changed at that moment, of course, and dragging the
Speaker 1: line how does that come together? Well, that was much later,
Speaker 1: of course, and I had the Shan Dels and I
Speaker 1: had parted ways in UM at least that group of them,
Speaker 1: and so I started a solo career and I brought
Speaker 1: my old one of my old writing partners up from
Speaker 1: South Bend, Indiana. His name was Bob King. I brought
Speaker 1: him up and we began producing and writing together, and
Speaker 1: I started producing artists Silver at Columbia for Clive Davis,
Speaker 1: I did Patty Austin, I did Bennie Mardonis, uh you know,
Speaker 1: several other acts, and uh, you know, just started expanding
Speaker 1: everything I was doing. And I wrote this little song
Speaker 1: for uh for as a B side called Dragon A Line,
Speaker 1: and I put it out first as a B side.
Speaker 1: On the A side was a song called Church Street
Speaker 1: Soul Revival, And the first time this had ever happened
Speaker 1: to me where I put it out as a single,
Speaker 1: and the B side started getting as much or more
Speaker 1: play as the A side that had never happened to
Speaker 1: me before. And so I took a second look at this,
Speaker 1: and I took Dragon A Line back into the studio
Speaker 1: and I put horns on it, a couple of beet
Speaker 1: beat boop boops, and remixed it and put it out
Speaker 1: as a single in seventy one. The spring of seventy one,
Speaker 1: I just took off and broke out of l a
Speaker 1: believe it or not, and so any at any rate,
Speaker 1: that was a that was a huge big deal to
Speaker 1: have a top five record as a solo artist right then.
Speaker 1: And I had another twelve chart singles on Roulette as
Speaker 1: a solo artist, I'm Coming Home and Ball and Chain
Speaker 1: and the others. And then you know what happened, how
Speaker 1: I ended up leaving with it. Okay, at some point
Speaker 1: the hits dry up. How do you cope with that?
Speaker 1: What goes through your mind? Well, look, this business we're in,
Speaker 1: it's generational, and you've got to be prepared for the
Speaker 1: long haul. And you go through phases, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's like being a child actor. You know, you as
Speaker 1: you as you get older, Uh, the parts change and
Speaker 1: the windows aren't as frequent, but there are still lots
Speaker 1: of windows of opportunity and so um. After nineteen I
Speaker 1: did two albums for Fantasy Records in the seventies and
Speaker 1: they were both on the charts. They they weren't top
Speaker 1: ten albums, but they sold a lot of records. And uh,
Speaker 1: then I had another I came back to New York
Speaker 1: in eight and signed with Millennium Records, which was Jimmy
Speaker 1: Einer's label, and that was distributed by r C A.
Speaker 1: And I had a number one Adult contemporary record with
Speaker 1: three Times in Love and it went top ten on
Speaker 1: the charts, and uh, then two more chart records on
Speaker 1: Millennium after that, and then finally UM, I left Millennium
Speaker 1: and UH, basically things were pretty slow in the eighties.
Speaker 1: I got my a lot of my music back. Finally
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety I signed with Ronald Lexenburg at Aegis
Speaker 1: Records and we had an album called High Five and
Speaker 1: did okay, didn't blow the Doorstown, but it was okay.
Speaker 1: So but all this time we're selling records. UH. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Roulette Morris gets uh Morris and I kind of stayed
Speaker 1: in touch. Morris gets arrested and gets convicted, uh for
Speaker 1: racketeering and gets sentenced to ten years in prison. This
Speaker 1: happened in eighty six and eighty seven, and he dies
Speaker 1: of cancer before he can serve a day in prison.
Speaker 1: And just before he died, he sold the company two Rhino,
Speaker 1: who is this is very contortive, but he sells it
Speaker 1: to Rhino, UH, and the masters and sells the publishing.
Speaker 1: Two Fujifilm start a publishing company called Windswept Pacific. Windswept
Speaker 1: Pacific themselves to E M I E M I, then
Speaker 1: selves to Sony. Today I'm with Sony on on the
Speaker 1: publish all the publishing. And they've brought me sixty three
Speaker 1: movies uh in the past uh ten years or so,
Speaker 1: sixty three of them. And um over on the masters
Speaker 1: are now owned by Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers brought Rhino,
Speaker 1: bought Rhino, and Warner Brothers now who by the way
Speaker 1: is owned by the Russians, the Ukrainians. Um, there are
Speaker 1: no more American owned record companies of the of the
Speaker 1: big corporate labels. You know, Sony is owned by the Japanese, UH,
Speaker 1: Universal is Vivendi by the with the French, and UH
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers is the Ukrainians. So anyway, that's that's amazing.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so uh Warner Brothers has uh put out
Speaker 1: product licensed product my stuff all over the world. And
Speaker 1: so today you know it's a licensing business and a
Speaker 1: publishing business, and uh, frankly, I mean I'm kind of
Speaker 1: embarrassed to say to this, I've never done better. Uh,
Speaker 1: financially than then now any time in my career, not
Speaker 1: to mention the booking price. You said you got the
Speaker 1: rights back. What rights did you get back? I own
Speaker 1: all of my masters after Roulette, in other words, the
Speaker 1: five labels I was with, including my own. Now I
Speaker 1: have my own label, our records, and I own all
Speaker 1: of my material, all of my masters h after Roulette
Speaker 1: from seventy four on. Uh. Now, UH Warners owns the
Speaker 1: big Roulette catalog. And they're doing a magnificent job of
Speaker 1: getting that stuff all around. And they pay. Okay, now,
Speaker 1: you signed deals in the sixties. Never mind, you didn't
Speaker 1: get paid in the sixties. Do they still pay you
Speaker 1: at the same rate in the you signed the contract
Speaker 1: you signed in the sixties a much better rate. How
Speaker 1: did you come to how did you get to renegotiate that? Well,
Speaker 1: there were certain statutory laws that they had to um
Speaker 1: over the years. UM. I renegotiated with Rhino um because
Speaker 1: otherwise I could have I was. I didn't threaten to
Speaker 1: sue him or anything. I just said that, Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I never got paid, and I didn't excuse me. I
Speaker 1: guess I put a bug in their ear. But they
Speaker 1: were very eager to pay me the much higher rate.
Speaker 1: And of course with movies and licens things, a lot
Speaker 1: of the movies are very uh well paying, as is
Speaker 1: SYNC licensing for other things television, uh licensing, and that's
Speaker 1: a fifty royalty. Let's go back to your production era.
Speaker 1: Were you the King? You talked about technology going from
Speaker 1: four track to track? Were you pretty savvy in the
Speaker 1: studio and how did you get the work with Clive
Speaker 1: and other people as a producer. Well, I was very
Speaker 1: lucky because I learned production. Excuse me, I learned production
Speaker 1: with Bow and Ritchie. I went through all the phases
Speaker 1: of production, producing records, writing songs, producing records, making records,
Speaker 1: um at roulette, even album design and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Um I was I learned my craft from top to bottom.
Speaker 1: And so yes, I was well versed in the studio.
Speaker 1: And when I produced other artists, that really is a
Speaker 1: rather thankless job producing other people. It's kind of uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's a hard it's a hard
Speaker 1: thing to do and be successful at we we did. Okay.
Speaker 1: The first record I ever produced for somebody else was Tighter,
Speaker 1: Tighter by Live and kicking. Um I guess you remember
Speaker 1: Tighter Tighter. I took it back to Roulette, and I
Speaker 1: originally was going to do it for myself, and uh,
Speaker 1: I didn't like the way the vocal was coming out,
Speaker 1: so I brought a live and kicking in rewrote the
Speaker 1: song as kind of a duet, did it with them.
Speaker 1: They sang on the track that we had already done,
Speaker 1: and then I added their guitar player and keyboard player
Speaker 1: and so forth, um and had a We had a
Speaker 1: top five record with Tighter Tighter on Roulette. Uh. I
Speaker 1: kind of got my production shops together through Tighter Tighter,
Speaker 1: and then I began producing other artists at Columbia and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But I kind of grew tired of
Speaker 1: that pretty quickly. It's a lot of work, especially if
Speaker 1: you're producing more than one person at a time, and
Speaker 1: I kind of tired of that. To be honest with you, Okay, now,
Speaker 1: during this behight of your fame, you are partaking of
Speaker 1: substances to the point one one dig you collapse in
Speaker 1: or people. The rumor goes around that you're dead. So
Speaker 1: tell us about your descent and your recovery there. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: I started popping pills, I started taking uppers. Uh started
Speaker 1: early on about and it all caught up with me. Um,
Speaker 1: what was your motivation for taking the uppers? I had
Speaker 1: to write, I had to make records, I had to
Speaker 1: be up a lot. But I also they also, I
Speaker 1: was you know, uh they I liked them. I wish
Speaker 1: there was a better excuse than that. I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: I used them when I worked, but I also liked
Speaker 1: the like the way I felt and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: doing the sixties. Uh, and and you had the feeling
Speaker 1: it was all right because everybody else was doing them too.
Speaker 1: So anyway, as I moved on, then I I started saying, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do pills anymore. I'm gonna I'm going
Speaker 1: to rehab. So then I started drinking, and then so
Speaker 1: booze became my drug of choice for a long time.
Speaker 1: And then finally uh uh you know, I was very
Speaker 1: very lucky because I never really got caught. There were
Speaker 1: a couple of times, like the time you mentioned when
Speaker 1: I collapsed on stage. I go back to Roulette and
Speaker 1: they said what the hell happened? And I had to
Speaker 1: explain what I was doing. But anyway, the bottom line
Speaker 1: was that h I finally came to my senses in
Speaker 1: n and I went to the Betty Ford Center, and uh,
Speaker 1: it was the best thing I've ever done, one of
Speaker 1: the best things I've ever done. Certainly it saved my life. Okay,
Speaker 1: a little a little bit slower, Okay, get pushed? Did
Speaker 1: you get pushed or did you jump? How did you
Speaker 1: actually go into the Betty Ford Center? And what is
Speaker 1: it like being a rock star taking pills and drinking
Speaker 1: for decades and then going to rehab. It doesn't stick
Speaker 1: with most people. So what was your experience and why
Speaker 1: did it stick? But first, how did you actually go? Well,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, baby, U uh um, Well, frankly, I
Speaker 1: couldn't stomach myself anymore. I couldn't stand waking up with
Speaker 1: the hangovers. I couldn't, you know, because and I was
Speaker 1: just barely getting by on my on my road shows,
Speaker 1: because I was putting more and more away and uh
Speaker 1: just barely uh not getting caught. And so I must
Speaker 1: tell you, oh, well, I don't want to jump ahead.
Speaker 1: So I basically couldn't stand myself anymore. And yes, my
Speaker 1: dear wife was pushing me to do it too. Um
Speaker 1: God bless her, she stuck with me all those years.
Speaker 1: And so finally I we got on a plane and
Speaker 1: went to the Betty Ford Center. And uh, the Betty
Speaker 1: Ford Center is laid out like a campus. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful place, Uh to get so ober and
Speaker 1: too uh uh really reflect on what you're doing to
Speaker 1: your life and to get to get better. And I
Speaker 1: was there for six weeks. At that time, I was
Speaker 1: cross addicted to valium and booge and that's a dangerous combination.
Speaker 1: And Uh, all I can say is that I've been
Speaker 1: very fortunate. I never relapsed after I left the center.
Speaker 1: I I wanted. The truth is I wanted to stop.
Speaker 1: If you really don't want, if you're badgered to go
Speaker 1: into rehab, it's not gonna work. Uh. You know they
Speaker 1: say a man convinced against his will is of the
Speaker 1: same opinion still, and it's the truth. You can't if
Speaker 1: you're badgered to go by somebody, it's not gonna work.
Speaker 1: You have to be sick of yourself. You have to
Speaker 1: want to go and want to quit. And I did.
Speaker 1: And that's really the story. And I and I a
Speaker 1: couple of things going back. Hey, what did you learn
Speaker 1: and rehab and be you had somewhat of a religious
Speaker 1: conversion there well, yes, that had actually happened several years
Speaker 1: before that, but my faith played a big role in
Speaker 1: my recovery. Um, I'll tell a very personal story if
Speaker 1: you'd like me to. I. UM, while I was in
Speaker 1: the Fourth Center, I uh had a Bible, had my
Speaker 1: Bible with and I years before had done this and
Speaker 1: and uh open just opened my Bible up, thrown it
Speaker 1: down on the bed and saying, wherever it opens up to,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna know God's talking to me. I'm gonna read
Speaker 1: that page and I'm I'm gonna know I's talking to me. Well,
Speaker 1: I did it at the Betty Ford Center and I
Speaker 1: one afternoon, I just threw my Bible down on the
Speaker 1: bed and I and it opened up to some thirty
Speaker 1: two and it was a conversation between David and God.
Speaker 1: First David's talking and then God's talking. And basically I'm paraphrasing,
Speaker 1: but God told David, don't don't make me treat you
Speaker 1: like a wild donkey where I have to put reins
Speaker 1: on you and pull you this way and pull you
Speaker 1: that way. I'm paraphrasing, but do the right thing, do
Speaker 1: what you know I want you to do, and don't
Speaker 1: make me treat you like a wild animal. Well, I
Speaker 1: believe in my heart to this day that God was
Speaker 1: telling what's talking to me through that, and I knew
Speaker 1: he meant it and that he was looking out for
Speaker 1: me because I had always felt God was looking out here.
Speaker 1: I've had so many little miracles, some of them I
Speaker 1: told you about happened in my lifetime that there was
Speaker 1: no doubt about it. And so that's what I did.
Speaker 1: And when I left the Betty Ford Center, I I
Speaker 1: just knew in my heart that that was going to
Speaker 1: be it, and it was. I've never relapsed and ah,
Speaker 1: thank God, everything in my life changed after that for
Speaker 1: the better. True story. Okay, you were on the road
Speaker 1: with Hubert Humphrey. You knew him a little about lew
Speaker 1: him a little bit. What was that experience like and
Speaker 1: also compare the state of the country and your view
Speaker 1: of it from then to now. Yeah, a lot of similarities.
Speaker 1: Um Well, basically I told you that Hubert Humphreys office
Speaker 1: called Roulette and we went out and I'll never forget.
Speaker 1: We were watching uh Richie and I Mike Vale and
Speaker 1: I from the from the group. We were watching the
Speaker 1: Democratic Convention in Chicago where all the kids got beat up,
Speaker 1: and the reporters got beat up and everything. It was real,
Speaker 1: real UH riot and everything, real chaos. And we're watching
Speaker 1: this and we had just agreed the week before that
Speaker 1: we would meet Hubert Humphrey UH and the and the
Speaker 1: campaign in UH. I believe it's rolling out Virginia, UH,
Speaker 1: the following Wednesday after the convention. And so we're writing
Speaker 1: and and this UH convention comes on and we, my god,
Speaker 1: what have we got our selves into? Is every campaign
Speaker 1: stopped gonna be like this? What in the hell are
Speaker 1: we gonna do? Should we back out? What? So we
Speaker 1: decided to go ahead and we met him the following Wednesday,
Speaker 1: and they gave us our own private jet UH to
Speaker 1: go back and forth whenever we could make it. And UH,
Speaker 1: he couldn't have been nicer and we so we opened.
Speaker 1: We opened for him, you know, like a like a
Speaker 1: rock act. And it's the first time that I'm aware
Speaker 1: of that a rock act and a and a politician
Speaker 1: linked up to do a campaign. We ended up. He
Speaker 1: asked me if I would do the whole campaign. We
Speaker 1: did it. We did the whole damn campaign. And what
Speaker 1: a what a learning experience that was? Um? Uh? He
Speaker 1: told me how he was gonna He told all of
Speaker 1: us how he was going to end the Vietnam War.
Speaker 1: He was going to have a national referendum. I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember thinking to myself how lucky we were to
Speaker 1: hear this. I mean that the press would have gone
Speaker 1: nuts to hear this a national referendum. He says, it
Speaker 1: will show the world what a democracy really is, and
Speaker 1: it will save twenty kids. And he was right, that's
Speaker 1: almost exactly the number. And uh he ended up writing
Speaker 1: the liner notes to my Crimson and Clover album. If
Speaker 1: you turn the album over, Hubert Humphrey wrote the liner notes,
Speaker 1: and um, it was just an amazing time. He asked me, uh,
Speaker 1: if I would be President's advisor on youth affairs if
Speaker 1: he won, and I said something to him like some
Speaker 1: stupid and like you know, like believe me, the youth
Speaker 1: are having affairs and I'm just a guy to look into.
Speaker 1: I thought that was uh. But the bottom line was that, uh, my,
Speaker 1: my career could have gone in a very different direction
Speaker 1: if he had won. But of course, uh he did.
Speaker 1: He did lose, and but a lot of people thought,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember that night, uh, in
Speaker 1: of the presidential election, but uh, the voting machines in
Speaker 1: uh Cook County in Chicago, suddenly we're an operative. They
Speaker 1: broke and three hours later, oh and he was winning.
Speaker 1: And three hours later, um, voting machines came back on
Speaker 1: and he lost. So um and Nixon one. And at
Speaker 1: breakfast that day, everybody wanted him to do a recount
Speaker 1: because everybody felt that Daily had mayor Daily had uh
Speaker 1: you know, fixed the election because he was so he
Speaker 1: was so upset with the Democrats for the fool they
Speaker 1: made of him at the convention. Do you did you
Speaker 1: watch any of that? Oh? Yeah, I know, yeah, absolutely
Speaker 1: so at any rate, Uh, they wanted him to do
Speaker 1: a recount. He and he says, oh, he says, the
Speaker 1: nation has been through enough. We don't need to do
Speaker 1: any of that. He says, this guy, this guy, Dick Nixon,
Speaker 1: has a habit of getting himself in trouble. So hiss
Speaker 1: our support. That's what he said at breakfast. And so anyway,
Speaker 1: it was a major experience and right in the middle
Speaker 1: of my generation, I guess, and how did you get
Speaker 1: out of the draft? Well? I always feel really squeamish
Speaker 1: about saying this, but it was probably Morris Levy, Morris Levy,
Speaker 1: this is a true story. Happened to be on the
Speaker 1: board of directors of the Chemical Bank in New York.
Speaker 1: Talk about the cat garden, the chicken house, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: And one of his best friends on on the board
Speaker 1: was the head of the Selective Service in New York
Speaker 1: was also on the board, and I I'm almost certain
Speaker 1: that he used his influence for that. I I don't
Speaker 1: know if I'd have been accepted anyway, because I was
Speaker 1: really it was the height of my pill usage. We
Speaker 1: had just done the Ed Sullivan Show that Sunday night,
Speaker 1: and this is February, early February, and I went down
Speaker 1: to the Whitehall Street in New York, which was the
Speaker 1: UH induction center and took my physical and I had
Speaker 1: been up for two days in the studio and Uh,
Speaker 1: it turns out I was color blind to night time colors.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. So you have a new album
Speaker 1: rock Party out this year. What does it contain and
Speaker 1: how did you decide to put out a record? Now? Well, um,
Speaker 1: if you if you don't mind me telling you one
Speaker 1: more thing. UH. Two years ago in we put out
Speaker 1: the Alive album. It was my first studio album in
Speaker 1: probably ten years. And we went Top twenty with the
Speaker 1: album Adult Contemporary, and we went top twenty with both
Speaker 1: of the singles from the album in Billboard. Um. Uh,
Speaker 1: so it was great to be back on the charts
Speaker 1: and that that was really a big big deal for me. Um. Secondly,
Speaker 1: we're putting out this new album called, as you say,
Speaker 1: Rock Party. Uh. This was an album that we uh license.
Speaker 1: I actually put this album together twenty years ago. Uh,
Speaker 1: and we licensed it to a Canadian label called Direct Source,
Speaker 1: and um, they had it out and the license is up,
Speaker 1: and we got the album back and they sent us
Speaker 1: the copies of the album that they had put together. Basically,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a compilation of my favorite rock songs
Speaker 1: that I have produced over the years. Um. Uh. And
Speaker 1: and so we suped it up a little bit with
Speaker 1: extra crowd noises stuff and uh it really it really
Speaker 1: sounds most of the many of the cuts are live anyway,
Speaker 1: and so it's a it's it's a rock album and
Speaker 1: it's uh things we have recorded at various spots around
Speaker 1: the country back then. Um. What happened with this album
Speaker 1: was we got it back and decided since we've never
Speaker 1: released it in the United States, had only been had
Speaker 1: only been released in um uh in Canada. We decided
Speaker 1: to release it first of all digitally in the United States,
Speaker 1: which we did on Spotify and and uh iTunes and
Speaker 1: all of the those digital platforms, and then secondly we
Speaker 1: released it physical product of c d s November five
Speaker 1: all over the country, ah through our distributor. And now
Speaker 1: we're going to be releasing it all over the world.
Speaker 1: So Rock Party is going to get around and uh,
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope people dig it. It's uh uh
Speaker 1: never been released here before. So that's the story of
Speaker 1: Rock Party. Okay. Now these are on your own label, yes,
Speaker 1: and how do you actually promote them and market them
Speaker 1: in today's world of cacophony, Well, Ira we go. We
Speaker 1: we're going to retail with it everywhere, and retail has
Speaker 1: taken it everywhere from Walmart to cost Go to uh
Speaker 1: target uh uh. Ira is our marketing director for our
Speaker 1: records and and our distributor is m v D and
Speaker 1: the physical the Orchard does uh digital Yeah, and uh
Speaker 1: so uh we get it. We're getting around and radio
Speaker 1: all over the country is playing cuts from it, tracks
Speaker 1: from it, and Carol does a wonderful job with radio.
Speaker 1: She does radio all over the world. As a matter
Speaker 1: of fact. Okay, you've had quite a career, and unlike
Speaker 1: many people, you're still very active, not only in the
Speaker 1: road but in other endeavors. Recording. It's anything left to do,
Speaker 1: anything you know, reach you know, they use that term
Speaker 1: bucket list, anything you want to achieve before you leave
Speaker 1: this mortal coil. Well, we're doing a movie right now.
Speaker 1: The book Me, the Mob and the Music is being
Speaker 1: turned into a film. It's being produced by Barbara Dafina,
Speaker 1: who produced Good Fellas and Casino and Hugo a few
Speaker 1: years ago with Martin Scorsese and going all the way
Speaker 1: back to the Color of Money with Paul Newman back
Speaker 1: in the in the age, just a great string of hits.
Speaker 1: And she's producing our film, and uh, Kathleen Marshall is directing.
Speaker 1: Who made her bones on Broadway, and they want to
Speaker 1: do a Broadway show after the film. And so the
Speaker 1: next couple of years are going to be real interesting.
Speaker 1: And uh, Hollywood shut down, as you know, for about
Speaker 1: a year and a half. So they're now just getting
Speaker 1: up in a running again. And uh so I love
Speaker 1: watching all this come together. I'm getting another education they're
Speaker 1: putting the technical crew together right now, and uh they'll
Speaker 1: be casting. They have their money. Uh, they're gonna be
Speaker 1: casting soon. And I'm gonna be helping produce the movie
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be technical advisor and the music.
Speaker 1: And what's amazing to me, by the way, is how
Speaker 1: many of the young actors, uh, the the young male
Speaker 1: actors started out in rock bands and so so many
Speaker 1: of you know, because Jamie Fox really raised the bar
Speaker 1: and Ray by doing his own vocals and and uh
Speaker 1: he even looked like Ray Charles, So he really has
Speaker 1: raised the bar uh for that sort of musical movie
Speaker 1: getting made. And so whoever they get uh in the
Speaker 1: lead role is going to have to play and sing
Speaker 1: and actually re record some of these songs. And whoever
Speaker 1: they get from Marris Morris is really the star to
Speaker 1: show because uh, you know, all of us were kind
Speaker 1: of jumping around pleasing Morris and he really, uh was
Speaker 1: the center of attention. So but I hope they get
Speaker 1: it right, and I'm gonna try to see to it,
Speaker 1: for example, that they on this in the in the
Speaker 1: studio scenes, that they actually have equipment that was used
Speaker 1: in the sixties. It's very important you know so many,
Speaker 1: so many of the people who try to recreate the
Speaker 1: sixties don't get it right. Oh listen, you're you're you're
Speaker 1: preaching to the converted on that. So Tommy, you know
Speaker 1: you're great. You remember everything, you haven't lost a step.
Speaker 1: It's both impressive and interesting, and I want to thank
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time. We could talk
Speaker 1: for hours more. We've just hit the surface, but you
Speaker 1: tell a great story. They're all interesting. I want to
Speaker 1: thank you so much. God bless you, Bob. I love
Speaker 1: reading your stuff. I'm very honored to do this show
Speaker 1: and thank you for everything. Until next time. This is
Speaker 1: Bob left Stocks