Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's
Speaker 2: Chuck and it's just us and that's okay because we
Speaker 2: can support one another and ourselves. We're grown men and
Speaker 2: we feel good about things, especially us, well not especially,
Speaker 2: but equally with us. And this is TI.
Speaker 1: I mean, you told me, you sent me a text
Speaker 1: very early that said put on your big boy pants today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because Jerry's not showing up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I got them out my breeches.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Are they green jeans?
Speaker 3: Oh? I've got on green cords?
Speaker 2: No, I do?
Speaker 4: We do?
Speaker 1: These are kind of my favorites. Actually, these forest green
Speaker 1: chords great for this time of year.
Speaker 2: I don't remember those. I remember some like brownish topey,
Speaker 2: kind of shiny tope ones. Am I making up?
Speaker 1: No? I have chords of many colors, much like Joseph.
Speaker 2: Are they the thick whales or the thin whales?
Speaker 3: The thins?
Speaker 1: I don't get into the thick stuff anymore. That was nineties, Chuck.
Speaker 2: Probably, Yeah, but I'll bet they're going to make a comeback.
Speaker 3: I bet you.
Speaker 2: Okay, I think we should start talking about this because
Speaker 2: we probably have some non regular listeners who have military backgrounds,
Speaker 2: who are like, what the hell is this? Who want
Speaker 2: to hear about Operation Paul Bunyan, which is the point
Speaker 2: of all this. And I'm guessing just from the title,
Speaker 2: there's probably a lot of people in the military who
Speaker 2: know what we're talking about. Already. It seems to be
Speaker 2: a fairly widespread, widely known incident that took place in
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six. We're just going to call it an
Speaker 2: incident at the DMV DMZ that was totally unintentional, an
Speaker 2: incident at the DMZ. That's where we're going to start
Speaker 2: out calling it. Well, eventually, maybe refine that over time,
Speaker 2: but we should probably talk about what the DMZ is
Speaker 2: in the first place. Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And by the way, I'm looking real quick, because
Speaker 1: I could have sworn this probably came from someone, but
Speaker 1: I usually make a note and I'm not seeing that.
Speaker 1: But I am seeing that pop Tarts came from Nelson Reynolds.
Speaker 1: So sorry for that, Nelson.
Speaker 2: Sorry Nelson, ah ha.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the DMZ, I guess we should set up
Speaker 1: just sort of the deal between North Korea and South
Speaker 1: Korea and the United States post World War Two was
Speaker 1: the Soviets and the Americans got together and said, all right,
Speaker 1: Korea and Korea obviously got involved and said, we're going
Speaker 1: to be two nations. Let's confuse everybody and call the
Speaker 1: communists North Korea inside the Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Speaker 1: and called the democratic South Korean side just the Republic
Speaker 1: of Korea. And if you've ever heard of the thirty
Speaker 1: eighth parallel, that's the famous dividing line between these two.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And North Korea and South Korea got divided after
Speaker 2: World War Two because there was a power vacuum and
Speaker 2: the Communists were fighting in the North and they were
Speaker 2: fighting that US friendly South Koreans, and the North Koreans
Speaker 2: were like, this can't sting it. We want the whole peninsula,
Speaker 2: and they invaded and the Korean War broke out, like
Speaker 2: you said, and it lasted for three years. I always
Speaker 2: thought it was Americans who were fighting in Korea, but
Speaker 2: it turns out there were plenty of American troops, mostly
Speaker 2: American troops, but they were part of a UN command
Speaker 2: that was actually fighting the North along with the South Koreans. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's like ninety percent American forces. And you
Speaker 1: said it lasted three years. I think the Korean War
Speaker 1: is one of those that technically never ended true officially,
Speaker 1: because I mean that's kind of one of those nitpicky
Speaker 1: trivia questions. That's a good one that you know, there
Speaker 1: was never an official treaty ending the war. They came
Speaker 1: to a truce or an armistice because of a stalemate
Speaker 1: basically after three years. But I think you know on
Speaker 1: the books, the Korean War never technically ended.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's my understanding too. Well. Good point. So
Speaker 2: one of the big things about this armistice agreement was
Speaker 2: that it was like, okay, you guys, we need some
Speaker 2: separation here, and they literally separated North Korea from South Korea.
Speaker 2: Like you said, the dividing line runs roughly along the
Speaker 2: thirty eighth parallel, But on either side of that border
Speaker 2: of North and South Korea there's a buffer zone, the
Speaker 2: demilitarized Zone the DMZ I was referring to before. I
Speaker 2: think it's two point four miles wide total one point
Speaker 2: two miles on either side, and that is like effectively
Speaker 2: the de facto border between North and South. No one's
Speaker 2: supposed to come into that no man's zone, no man's land,
Speaker 2: the DMZ. But inside the DMZ. There's a little tiny
Speaker 2: village called the panmu JOm and I know of that
Speaker 2: from Billy Joel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I knew he was going to come up.
Speaker 2: That was it. And then some of the other Korean
Speaker 2: town names that came up, like Kaesong and all this.
Speaker 2: I'm like, how do I know these? How are they
Speaker 2: so unfamiliar? And then I realized watching mash with my dad,
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And it's this little tiny militarized spot inside
Speaker 2: the demilitarized zone, and it's it's where North Korea and
Speaker 2: South Korea actually come together physically, can come together in
Speaker 2: this what's called the JSA, the Joint Security Area.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if they over the years have to meet
Speaker 1: to negotiate anything, that's where they meet. That's where the
Speaker 1: governments go. There's a very famous bridge there separating the two,
Speaker 1: the Bridge of No Return. It's very dramatic if you
Speaker 1: look at pictures of it. Yeah, it's literally like, you know,
Speaker 1: on one side is one thing, on the other side
Speaker 1: as the other. And that's where they do prisoner exchanges
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And these days, you know, it's well,
Speaker 1: largely because of this incident, I think it's not the
Speaker 1: same as it was back then.
Speaker 3: No, it's very separate.
Speaker 1: Back then, the Joint Security Area was you know, there
Speaker 1: were it was jointly patrolled, like you know, North Koreans
Speaker 1: and South Korean soldiers and American soldiers were patrolling the
Speaker 1: area at the same time that face to face contact.
Speaker 1: They would try to intimidate one another. They would you know,
Speaker 1: curse at one another, maybe spit at one another. The
Speaker 1: Americans would play hopscotch on the bridge. The North Koreans
Speaker 1: would you know, drive a truck really fast toward them
Speaker 1: and slam on the brakes. They would sneak up and
Speaker 1: bang on their checkpoint barracks at night and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: It was crazy to think that these kind of shenanigans
Speaker 1: were going on without any further you know, sort of
Speaker 1: war breaking out. They all kind of seemingly took it
Speaker 1: in stride.
Speaker 2: Well that's what their orders were. The UN Command troops
Speaker 2: and the Americans in particular, had specific orders to like,
Speaker 2: if you had to defend yourself physically because you were
Speaker 2: getting beat up, okay, but you did not shoot. You
Speaker 2: had to be shot at to draw your side arm,
Speaker 2: and that was the most powerful weapon that anyone patrolling
Speaker 2: the Joint security area had They were often outfitted with
Speaker 2: axe handles, maybe baton's, and that was about it. So
Speaker 2: the Americans had strict orders not to take the bait,
Speaker 2: and North Korean troops had essentially strict orders to provoke
Speaker 2: the Americans into attacking so that they could start a
Speaker 2: war again and it would be the American's fault exactly.
Speaker 1: And this came largely from the guy in charge. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it came from on high, I'm sure, but
Speaker 1: it was filtered down through Captain Arthur Bonifas. He was
Speaker 1: a Vietnam vet. He was the JSA company commander. He
Speaker 1: was thirty three years old. He was a big dude.
Speaker 1: He was six' three, apparently super, popular like a father
Speaker 1: figure as far as his command. Went and the camp
Speaker 1: there at JSA's Name Camp boniface after, him so you
Speaker 1: may see where this is. Headed but, he you, know
Speaker 1: he believed in standing your ground but not taking the.
Speaker 1: Bait like you, said like he wanted big guys down.
Speaker 1: There he wanted to kind of, intimidate but the orders
Speaker 1: were always to back off if it came to. Blows
Speaker 1: and sometimes it would like you, know you could get
Speaker 1: beat up or something and it would not escalate, further
Speaker 1: which is just crazy to think.
Speaker 2: About it is it's hard to. Imagine you said that
Speaker 2: bonifass was into intimidating without you, know doing, it like
Speaker 2: just being physically. Intimidating, yeah if you were assigned to PATROL.
Speaker 2: Jsa this is a really really high stakes area still is.
Speaker 2: Today Bill clinton toured it in the nineties and went
Speaker 2: as far as out under The bridge Of No, return
Speaker 2: and he said later that That Pamu jam is the
Speaker 2: scariest place on. Earth that's a president saying that he's
Speaker 2: probably been to some scary places and at least knows about.
Speaker 2: Them so that really says quite a. Bit so if
Speaker 2: you're assigned to this, area it's a big. Deal and
Speaker 2: so you had to be over six feet, tall but
Speaker 2: you also had to be laid back by nature and
Speaker 2: rather cool, headed like even when, provoked like they really
Speaker 2: tested the people who were a signed.
Speaker 3: There, yeah they'd walk up and they'd slap you and
Speaker 3: see what you.
Speaker 2: Did they would apparently while they were interviewing you that
Speaker 2: you'd have no. Idea they'd just start shouting at you
Speaker 2: out of the out of nowhere to see how you.
Speaker 2: Responded were they Really, Yeah, Oh. Wow, yeah there's a
Speaker 2: really that's a great chance to shout. Out there's an
Speaker 2: atavist article Called axes Of evil written By Josh dean
Speaker 2: and it's it's a really great detailed look at this
Speaker 2: whole thing that we're talking about. Today that would be.
Speaker 1: Axe yes in this, case right, yep very clever, hmm a.
Speaker 3: Bit of a uh what do you call?
Speaker 1: It it's we're recording, early SO i can't think of
Speaker 1: the word the. Foreshadowing, yeah maybe that's a play on
Speaker 1: words a. Pun foreshadowing is probably Yet. OKAY i think
Speaker 1: people are probably concerned BECAUSE i couldn't think of.
Speaker 2: FORESHADOWING i couldn't think of chemistry the other day and
Speaker 2: intro of me crazy.
Speaker 4: Oh, Man, yeah aging is real, yeah and a, privilege
Speaker 4: as they, Say uh so before this incident they were
Speaker 4: about to talk about, there there was one example we
Speaker 4: should mention When North korean troops were kind of must
Speaker 4: in the hair of a soldier Named William henderson and he.
Speaker 3: Did not take it.
Speaker 1: WELL i guess he was into his hair or. Something
Speaker 1: he got, mad took a swing and got A i
Speaker 1: guess a throat chop or, something and got a busted.
Speaker 1: Larynx and such That boniface wrote his wife and, said
Speaker 1: our mission here is to take the verbal abuse to
Speaker 1: kicking the, shoving but to not let it go any.
Speaker 1: Further Major henderson lost his cool and blew. It it's
Speaker 1: a natural, reaction but he should have known.
Speaker 2: Better, yeah and it was a big. Deal SO i
Speaker 2: also saw That henderson was provoked by a journalist who
Speaker 2: spat at. Him When henderson stood, up the journalists hit,
Speaker 2: him and then Finally henderson hit him, back and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden a bunch Of North korean troops jumped on.
Speaker 2: Him but the fact that he took the bait was
Speaker 2: a big deal because he was a. Major that means
Speaker 2: you're a big deal at a camp, already like you're
Speaker 2: fairly high. Up so him fighting back Was, yeah that
Speaker 2: was a big. Deal.
Speaker 1: Uh maybe an early early ish break here seems like
Speaker 1: a good dividing.
Speaker 3: LINE i think we.
Speaker 2: Should, well we'll take a break and we'll come back
Speaker 2: and talk about the tree that started the whole, thing all, Right.
Speaker 3: All, Right josh didn't pick up on my bad pun
Speaker 3: of the dividing. Line oh what was? It AND i,
Speaker 3: said it's a dividing, line like you, know the thirty eighth.
Speaker 2: Parallel it just is so natural that it's. BAD i
Speaker 2: totally missed. It it's also early for me.
Speaker 3: TOO i couldn't tell by the.
Speaker 1: Way that short stuff that you sent that we're going
Speaker 1: to record later had a bunch of puns in, it
Speaker 1: AND i didn't know if that was intentional or.
Speaker 2: NOT i can think of, one and it was. Intentional
Speaker 2: there were a. Couple, okay you got to point them.
Speaker 1: Out, yeah, boy what a little tease of a whole different.
Speaker 1: Episode you're such a. Tease so all, right now we
Speaker 1: get to The Paul. Bunyan what instigated The Paul bunyan
Speaker 1: incident or? Operation which was this tree that you Mentioned
Speaker 1: that was a. Tree it was a poplar tree near
Speaker 1: The bridge Of No. Return and the thing you need
Speaker 1: to know about this, tree, well there's a few, things
Speaker 1: but one is that it blocked the view of the
Speaker 1: line of sight between these two un command. Checkpoints and
Speaker 1: that was a big deal because you needed an open
Speaker 1: line of site between these checkpoints because you, know there
Speaker 1: were incidents of like kidnapping and stuff like that and other,
Speaker 1: shenanigans and you just you had to have that line
Speaker 1: of sight.
Speaker 3: OPEN. Yep so they said the unc was, like we
Speaker 3: got to get rid of this.
Speaker 1: Tree so they sent a couple of Unarmed South korean
Speaker 1: workers down there to just sort of figure out the
Speaker 1: best way to remove. It and the first sort of
Speaker 1: reaction was The North korean guards chased them. Away so
Speaker 1: that was sort of the line in the sand was
Speaker 1: get out of, here get away from that.
Speaker 4: Tree.
Speaker 2: Yeah apparently they tried again a couple days later and
Speaker 2: got rained, out and then finally On august, eighteenth they were, like,
Speaker 2: okay we're just gonna go ahead and do. This those
Speaker 2: first guys got chased, off so we're gonna essentially assign
Speaker 2: a few men to escort. THEM i think a fifteen
Speaker 2: man team went over On august, eighteenth led By Captain,
Speaker 2: bonifas and they started pruning the, tree just to. Prune
Speaker 2: at this, point, yeah they're just pruning it. Back they
Speaker 2: just want to make sure that even during summer they
Speaker 2: can See checkpoint, three the loneliest outpost in the, world,
Speaker 2: because like you, said it's very dangerous to man. That
Speaker 2: so they're just pruning it, right and very, quickly The
Speaker 2: North koreans came over The bridge Of No return because,
Speaker 2: remember mind bogglingly The Joint Security area was, open like
Speaker 2: the border didn't exist in The Joint security, area So
Speaker 2: North koreans AND Un command could just go wherever they.
Speaker 2: Want so The North koreans show up at this, site
Speaker 2: at the poplar tree while it's being, pruned and they're
Speaker 2: led By Lieutenant. Pacchoule he was known As Lieutenant bulldog
Speaker 2: by THE Un command troops because he was very, confrontational
Speaker 2: had provoked confrontation in the past plenty of, times and
Speaker 2: so he showed. Up so you just immediately knew that
Speaker 2: this could go south pretty. Quickly.
Speaker 1: Yeah and apparently he, said you, know they wanted to
Speaker 1: keep that tree pristine Because Kim il sung personally planted
Speaker 1: it and nourished it and it's growing under his. Supervision so,
Speaker 1: apparently or at least they said it was a special
Speaker 1: tree and to stand.
Speaker 2: Down, yes Because Kim il sung was the he was
Speaker 2: the first deer. Leader Kim jong un is his. Grandson. Yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah and so the idea that deer leader planted that.
Speaker 2: TREE i don't know if that's. TRUE i never saw.
Speaker 2: THAT i just saw it like stated here or. There
Speaker 2: but at the very Least pacchool said, that, Right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure IF i buy, that given what we
Speaker 1: now have sort of suspected about this being a, provocation
Speaker 1: which we'll get, to but that sounds to me, like,
Speaker 1: hey let's tell him, that you know it's a special.
Speaker 2: Tree, Yeah like he's like puck chool seemed like the
Speaker 2: kind who would just load you up on bs just
Speaker 2: to mess with.
Speaker 4: You.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah so he called for even more. REINFORCEMENTS i
Speaker 1: think about thirty More North korean guards showed. Up he
Speaker 1: Ordered Captain boniface to, stop but he turned his back on,
Speaker 1: him WHICH i think, was you, know a pretty big
Speaker 1: insult on top of everything. Else and as the story,
Speaker 1: goes one of The american soldiers Saw poc take off
Speaker 1: his wristwatch and put it in his, pocket which IS
Speaker 1: i guess a cain to Like pansie taking off his
Speaker 1: leather jacket like it's about to, happen and tried to Warn,
Speaker 1: boniface but it was too late by that, point And
Speaker 1: pack ordered the attack basically by, saying LIKE i think he,
Speaker 1: said kill the, bastards.
Speaker 2: Right. YEAH i saw in nineteen seven twenty Seven Army
Speaker 2: War college report on the, incident and that's what they,
Speaker 2: said So i'm prone to believe them, yeah but he
Speaker 2: said In korean, obviously. Right but right after that they
Speaker 2: the men attacked and ACTUALLY i Saw Lieutenant pocchoul Assaulted Captain,
Speaker 2: bonifas who had again his back To. Pocchool, yeah he
Speaker 2: hit him with the karate chop in the back of
Speaker 2: his neck and Dropped Captain boniface and very very, Sadly
Speaker 2: Captain boniface never got to his feet. Again, Yeah, like
Speaker 2: immediately he was set upon BY i saw five to
Speaker 2: Six North korean troops just started being beaten by. Them
Speaker 2: AND i guess the people who were cutting the tree
Speaker 2: had a couple of, axes these, civilians and they dropped
Speaker 2: their axes and, ran and The North korean troops picked
Speaker 2: up the. Axes and here is where the reason that
Speaker 2: this is called THE dmz ax incident. Begins that's.
Speaker 1: Right So boniface was bludgeoned to death by these guys attacking.
Speaker 1: Him and you can watch this like it was on.
Speaker 1: Film it's very. Chaotic you can't really GET i, mean
Speaker 1: it's kind of from far, away so you can't get
Speaker 1: a lot of, detail, right but you, know there are
Speaker 1: still shots in film of this stuff going. On so
Speaker 1: he was bludgeoned First Lieutenant Mark barrett was also beaten to.
Speaker 3: Death he was chased.
Speaker 1: Down over a retaining wall and you know sort of
Speaker 1: THE i, mean it's sad enough as it, is But
Speaker 1: bonifas was due to go home to his wife and
Speaker 1: three kids in three, days so it was made, it you,
Speaker 1: know sort of especially.
Speaker 2: Brutal, yeah and not like for a, visit like this
Speaker 2: was his last three days In. Korea, yeah where he
Speaker 2: was murdered by an axe By North korean. Troops it's
Speaker 2: almost like a, Parody like it's almost too crazy to
Speaker 2: believe that that's how close he was to leave In.
Speaker 2: Korea he was also going to be promoted to major,
Speaker 2: too like he was his life was like looking up
Speaker 2: when he was.
Speaker 3: Murdered, yeah really.
Speaker 2: Sad so this was a really really big. Deal as
Speaker 2: you can, imagine this is the first time that any
Speaker 2: un command true hoops and Any americans had been killed
Speaker 2: In korea since the end of The Korean. War it
Speaker 2: was a huge provocation and there was a big question
Speaker 2: now on the, table what is The United states military
Speaker 2: going to? Do, yeah that two of its officers were
Speaker 2: murdered by acts By North korean troops totally. Unprovoked this
Speaker 2: was one hundred. Percent The North korean's doing this so
Speaker 2: much their fault, that like you, said it almost seems
Speaker 2: like it was possibly set. Up we'll talk about that
Speaker 2: a little bit. Later and so there was a, big
Speaker 2: a big question that needed to be answered and answered really,
Speaker 2: fast and that was how are we going to respond to?
Speaker 1: This, Yeah so on THE us side at the, time
Speaker 1: we Had Henry kissinger as The secretary Of state Under
Speaker 1: President Gerald. Ford like we, mentioned it was seventy, six
Speaker 1: so it was the election year Between ford And Jimmy,
Speaker 1: carter And ford learned about the incident when and he
Speaker 1: was at The Republican National, convention and obviously As secretary Of,
Speaker 1: State kissinger was kind of in charge of figuring out
Speaker 1: what to. Do calls together The Washington Special Action, group
Speaker 1: which was a task force that was formed in sixty
Speaker 1: nine out Of vietnam to deal with like sort of
Speaker 1: any emergencies like this that came. Up and It's Henry.
Speaker 1: Kissinger so he's, like would we should bomb the, Barracks
Speaker 1: like he wants to flatten the barracks of the guards
Speaker 1: that attack them and react really strongly and sinto you,
Speaker 1: know a big message that this will not stand, YEAH.
Speaker 2: I, MEAN i can kind of understand that. Impulse he
Speaker 2: was apparently the only one in The Special Action group
Speaker 2: that wanted to respond with a violent, action and the
Speaker 2: reason why was because this is such a flashpoint still,
Speaker 2: today but at this, TIME i, mean it was like
Speaker 2: we were still in the middle of The Cold. War
Speaker 2: so to, us not only was This North, korea this
Speaker 2: is Also china and THE ussr right behind. Them. Right oh,
Speaker 2: Yeah so if you sent a missile into THE jsa
Speaker 2: against The North, koreans there was a better than even
Speaker 2: chance probably that you might spark a Nuclear World war. Three,
Speaker 2: unluckily cooler heads. Prevailed But kissinger he was probably a little.
Speaker 2: PARANOID i would. Guess he's very widely, reviled including by,
Speaker 2: me So i'm pretty sure he was at least a little.
Speaker 2: PARANOID i, mean he started out in The nixon, administration
Speaker 2: for goodness, sake but he was Also his position was
Speaker 2: also that this was a provocation by The north to
Speaker 2: Test america's resolve because it was an election, year they
Speaker 2: were trying to interfere with the. Election to make the
Speaker 2: point Of Gerald ford's, Opponent Jimmy, carter who was, saying
Speaker 2: we need to get troops out Of. Korea we don't
Speaker 2: have any business being there. Anymore So kissinger thought this
Speaker 2: Was North korea doing this to basically show that The
Speaker 2: americans didn't belong here, anymore just to get out wasn't worth, it. Basically,
Speaker 2: Yeah AND i get the.
Speaker 1: IDEA i, MEAN i was but five at the, time
Speaker 1: not super into politics, yet BUT i get the idea
Speaker 1: that Getting american troops out Of korea was probably a
Speaker 1: pretty popular idea That carter was laying.
Speaker 2: Out, yeah and you Know.
Speaker 3: Vietnam, yeah, well And kissinger was still ticked off About.
Speaker 1: Vietnam so he was, like if we don't do, this
Speaker 1: it's going to send a message that to Other asian
Speaker 1: countries and THE ussr In china that we have no
Speaker 1: resolve and that we're going to stand. Down and you,
Speaker 1: know he wanted his Guy forward back in there, Obviously
Speaker 1: so he was out, voted like you, said, thankfully but
Speaker 1: he was, like all, right we still need to show a,
Speaker 1: force like we need to do. Something and the one
Speaker 1: thing that everybody in the room agreed, on even if
Speaker 1: it WAS i, MEAN i know it was somewhat, strategical
Speaker 1: but it was also. Symbolic they were like we're cutting
Speaker 1: that gd tree. Down no matter what anyone else, Says
Speaker 1: we're going to cut that thing. Down and they were
Speaker 1: all like haharump for.
Speaker 2: Umph so, yeah they, Decided, okay we're not going to
Speaker 2: actually destroy, anything we're not going to fire any, missiles
Speaker 2: we're not going to kill, anybody but that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: we're not going to show them that we could do
Speaker 2: that if we wanted, to, Right and what they came
Speaker 2: up with was known As Operation Paul, bunyan which is
Speaker 2: one of the better names of any Operation i've ever. Heard, yeah.
Speaker 1: Totally it was under command Of General Richard. Stillwell he
Speaker 1: was the commander in chief of THE un command, there
Speaker 1: and the, message like you, said was to sort of,
Speaker 1: intimidate show that we could do something if we wanted.
Speaker 1: To they had forty thousand troops over there that WERE i,
Speaker 1: Mean dave says here it was raised To defcon, three
Speaker 1: which is somewhat counterintuitive because it's raising a number even
Speaker 1: though it's being, lowered, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah right in the middle between one and, five
Speaker 2: and one's the. Highest it is very.
Speaker 1: Confusing, yeah so you're raising deaf, coon but the number goes.
Speaker 1: Lower it took me a second to figure that. Out
Speaker 1: BUT i have seen, wargame SO i know how it.
Speaker 1: Works and a digit see The house Of. Dynamite have
Speaker 1: you seen that, yet the New Catherine bigelow. Movie, no
Speaker 1: IT'S i think it's. ON i think it's A netflix
Speaker 1: movie about sort of a modern you, know what would
Speaker 1: happen if nuclear arms were, Launched like what would we?
Speaker 1: Do so it's a very tense thing and there's lots
Speaker 1: of deaf con talk.
Speaker 3: AND i liked a lot of. It, YEAH i might
Speaker 3: say THAT.
Speaker 2: I can get. THAT i think she's directly funded by THE.
Speaker 2: Cia On Catherine, Bigelow, yeah.
Speaker 1: She definitely has her, niche you. Know, yeah for, SURE
Speaker 1: i would recommend. IT i didn't care for the third.
Speaker 2: Act that, much But house Of. DYNAMITE i think that's
Speaker 2: what it's. Called.
Speaker 1: Great, Nay, YEAH i mean you Get Idris elba as the,
Speaker 1: president so that's always a good.
Speaker 3: Move, Oh i'll say.
Speaker 2: That, wait you're talking about. That he's in it With John.
Speaker 2: Cena John cena is The American president And Idris elba's
Speaker 2: The Prime minister and they actually end up being like action.
Speaker 1: Heroes, No Idris elba is The American, President John cena
Speaker 1: is he's nowhere to be.
Speaker 2: Found i'm thinking of something you think it's.
Speaker 1: About, Anyway Operation Paul bunyan is set up. FOR i,
Speaker 1: MEAN i Know i'm Saying, bungyan but that's just because
Speaker 1: my weird. Accent It's. Bunyan august twenty, first this is
Speaker 1: three days after The axe. Attack and what they were
Speaker 1: going to do was mobilize sort of the largest mobilization
Speaker 1: of our forces and defenses on The korean peninsula since
Speaker 1: that fifty Three armistice with some pretty heavy artillery and
Speaker 1: airships and sea.
Speaker 3: Ships.
Speaker 2: YEAH i, mean remember When Captain boniface went to escort
Speaker 2: the tree trimmers there were fifteen. People now there's eight
Speaker 2: hundred men involved in this tree trimming and it's not
Speaker 2: even a tree trimming at this. Point right, now they're
Speaker 2: aiming to cut the tree.
Speaker 3: Down, yeah they hate this tree at this. Point they
Speaker 3: want that tree.
Speaker 2: Dead especially if they think that dear leader planted. It,
Speaker 2: right this tree has now become super. Symbolic blood has
Speaker 2: been shed to prune this. Tree and you said that
Speaker 2: there was a ton of artillery armaments as part of
Speaker 2: the show of, force and, boy you got it.
Speaker 1: Right, YEAH i, mean they had flying overhead and clear
Speaker 1: view so everyone could, see you, know what was going.
Speaker 1: On they had Twenty huey. Helicopters they had Twelve cobra,
Speaker 1: GUNSHIPS b fifty two, bombers tank, BUSTER f Four phantom
Speaker 1: fighter JETS f one to eleven strategic. BOMBS i mean
Speaker 1: they're pulling out all the stops and off the. Coast
Speaker 1: they had THE USSS uss DID I sa three s's
Speaker 1: or TWO uss, midway four frigates and a cruiser and
Speaker 1: aircraft taking off flying. OVERHEAD i mean it was a
Speaker 1: real show of.
Speaker 3: Intimidation.
Speaker 2: Yeah THOSE b fifty twos that take the intimidation even
Speaker 2: further were flying Inside North korean airspace not too far From.
Speaker 2: Peonyang they were also strapped with. Nukes there were nuclear
Speaker 2: missiles in this theater, now not just THE b fifty
Speaker 2: twos carrying, them but THOSE f one to elevens were
Speaker 2: also carrying nuclear warheads as. Missiles so the idea is,
Speaker 2: here as part Of Operation Paul bunyan is to trim
Speaker 2: the tree or cut the tree down now and also
Speaker 2: Show North korea, like do you do not want to
Speaker 2: mess with? Us DO i ever do anything like that?
Speaker 2: Again and to be prepared that If North korea did do,
Speaker 2: something if they were provoked by this tree cutting, down
Speaker 2: that they would just be essentially wiped off the map
Speaker 2: as a as a. Nation, yeah for.
Speaker 1: Sure and you know the whole AFTER i was studying all,
Speaker 1: this right in the middle of, IT i got weirdly
Speaker 1: very sad for this.
Speaker 3: Tree.
Speaker 2: YEAH i saw that tree in all of. It i've
Speaker 2: seen other people refer to as the poor.
Speaker 1: TREE i, know because in the middle of all this,
Speaker 1: STUFF i, mean these you, know bombers are flying, overhead
Speaker 1: and these troops are massing these heavy artillery on each
Speaker 1: side of the, bridge AND i just picture, that you.
Speaker 3: KNOW i Know i'm.
Speaker 1: ANTHROPOMORPHISING i always say that. Wrong say it for me.
Speaker 2: Anthropomorphizing you, said you just said so, lowly.
Speaker 3: That's, right this.
Speaker 1: Tree BUT i just pictured this poor tree sitting, there like,
Speaker 1: MAN i JUST i just want to be a.
Speaker 2: TREE i WISH i were a.
Speaker 3: SHRUB i want to Start World war three or be cut.
Speaker 2: DOWN i know that tree did not get their.
Speaker 3: Wish oh grow, SLOWER i promise.
Speaker 2: Right, HERE i can just shed a few.
Speaker 1: Limbs So Major General john Singlab dave helped us with.
Speaker 1: This found a quote that just showed how serious this,
Speaker 1: was and he said it was my estimate shared by
Speaker 1: many of the, staff that the operation stood a fifty
Speaker 1: to fifty chance of starting a, war and that would
Speaker 1: have Been World war, three.
Speaker 2: Absolutely a nuclear. War this tree cutting operation could have
Speaker 2: Sparked World war, three no. Joke, again that is how
Speaker 2: tense things are at THE dmz even still to this.
Speaker 3: Day all, right should we take a.
Speaker 2: Break, yeah let's take a, break and then we're going
Speaker 2: to talk About Operation Paul bunyan. Commencing, So, chuck this
Speaker 2: is not a reckless. Thing as a matter of, fact
Speaker 2: this was really. Calculated you Mentioned General, stilwell who was
Speaker 2: in charge of Every american troop In. Korea he personally
Speaker 2: came up with this plan and he was not a,
Speaker 2: warhawk but he also it was a really good, plan
Speaker 2: especially if all of the troops like followed orders and
Speaker 2: nobody tried anything provocative and nobody took any bait from
Speaker 2: The North. Koreans it was a very good. Plan but
Speaker 2: The United states was not reckless in. This in carrying
Speaker 2: out this, plan they actually got in touch With china
Speaker 2: and THE ussr and basically basically, said, hey you, know
Speaker 2: we're thinking about doing something like, this And china and
Speaker 2: the USS a both signaled that they were not going
Speaker 2: to do anything If North korea started, fighting That North
Speaker 2: korea was on their. OWN i think they've blinked twice
Speaker 2: and pulled their left ear lobe and then touched the
Speaker 2: bill of their, cap and The United states is, like,
Speaker 2: oh we. Gotcha so now it was a little less,
Speaker 2: tense even though it could still start a war With North.
Speaker 2: Korea at least we had this idea That china and
Speaker 2: THE ussr wouldn't immediately. Intervene.
Speaker 1: YEAH i immediately thought Of Doctor, strangelove AND i could.
Speaker 3: Just Hear Peter sellers on the phone, going.
Speaker 1: Well, dmitri you see there's this tree that's, Perfect it's so.
Speaker 1: GREAT i think we didn't mention too that the actual
Speaker 1: tree cutting was going to be done by unarmed military.
Speaker 3: Engineers that they sent.
Speaker 2: Forward.
Speaker 1: YEAH i, mean the fact that they weren't armed is
Speaker 1: kind of neither here nor, there because there were so many.
Speaker 1: ARMS i think the people actually on the bridge supposedly
Speaker 1: just had like, these you, know clubs and axe handles
Speaker 1: and side, arms but both sides of the bridge were
Speaker 1: stocked with heavy artillery from both. Sides AND i also
Speaker 1: saw that The Korean South korean faction that was assisting,
Speaker 1: us they rolled in and blocked the, bridge AND i
Speaker 1: don't think they were supposed to have anything more than just,
Speaker 1: pistols but they unloaded a bunch of sand bags and
Speaker 1: had a bunch OF m sixteens hidden that they took.
Speaker 2: Out, yeah they also showed that they had claymore mines
Speaker 2: land mines strapped to their chests and they had the
Speaker 2: detonators in their other hand and were daring The North
Speaker 2: koreans to come get them because they would blow themselves
Speaker 2: up in The North. Koreans and this had not been
Speaker 2: passed by THE Un Command force or anything like. That
Speaker 2: no one had any idea that The South korean commandos
Speaker 2: were going to do something like, that because, again we're
Speaker 2: trying to not let this, be you, know any more
Speaker 2: tense than it already. Is and all of a sudden
Speaker 2: there's essentially suicide bombers on the, scenes like mocking The North.
Speaker 2: Koreans so that definitely altered things a little. Bit playmore With.
Speaker 2: Claymore oh, YEAH i forgot. THAT i knew that from
Speaker 2: being a. Kid where where'd you hear? That is that
Speaker 2: just from the military and it trickled.
Speaker 3: Out, NO i thought it Was The, simpsons wasn't.
Speaker 2: It. NO i think it was like a maybe in
Speaker 2: a rambow or something. Like there's no WAY i would
Speaker 2: have known that as a.
Speaker 1: Kid, Otherwise, OKAY i can't remember WHERE i heard it,
Speaker 1: first but at any, rate it's a very tense.
Speaker 3: SCENE i think we've setting that.
Speaker 1: Up and, again you, know we had orders not to,
Speaker 1: provoke like our mission is to cut that tree, down
Speaker 1: but all hell's going to break loose if anything. Happens
Speaker 1: and like you, Mentioned North korea had some pretty decent
Speaker 1: incentive to kind of start some. Fighting they didn't Want
Speaker 1: World war, three but they wanted, to you, know they
Speaker 1: Wanted South korea still at this.
Speaker 3: Point.
Speaker 2: Yeah plus Also Kim il, sung The Dear, leader the
Speaker 2: First Dear, leader he was A communist guerrilla fighting The
Speaker 2: japanese In World War. Two he was battle hardened and. Tested,
Speaker 2: yeah so he was totally into. Fighting he wasn't like
Speaker 2: a dove or a diplomat at. All.
Speaker 1: Yeah AND i think we didn't mention too that the
Speaker 1: previous tree, trimming supposedly we had told them that this
Speaker 1: was going to, happen and so the whole provocation to begin,
Speaker 1: with if they knew about it ahead of, time then
Speaker 1: they came down there with that, knowledge because they didn't
Speaker 1: raise any. Objections apparently that we were, like, hey were
Speaker 1: going to trim this tree so we can have a
Speaker 1: better line of sight and you'll have a better line of,
Speaker 1: sight and no one said, anything you, know to the.
Speaker 1: Contrary so the whole thing was really provocation by The North.
Speaker 3: Koreans.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely that was the first time When Captain bonifass
Speaker 2: And Lieutenant barrett got, murdered.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly which again made it sort of seem
Speaker 1: like it was planned to begin.
Speaker 2: With, yeah for. Sure so at oh seven hundred, hours
Speaker 2: that's seven am On august twenty, first nineteen seventy, Six
Speaker 2: Operation Paul bunyan, commences and like you, SAID i mean
Speaker 2: basically what we described there was there was an order
Speaker 2: not to. ENGAGE i mean, essentially if The North koreans
Speaker 2: started unloading with sniper fire or machine, guns then, yes
Speaker 2: we're going to. Engage and it was a very tense,
Speaker 2: operation but they got in. There the military engineers cut
Speaker 2: the tree essentially down to a ten foot. Stump they
Speaker 2: were USING i Read vietnam era issue chainsaws that weren't
Speaker 2: in very good, shape so it took him a little.
Speaker 2: While but it took him about forty five minutes to
Speaker 2: complete the whole. Thing and they should have sent out Leather.
Speaker 2: Face he should.
Speaker 3: Have he could have gotten that done in ten.
Speaker 2: Minutes, Yeah but they left this big stump with a
Speaker 2: two like it was branching at the, top and one
Speaker 2: of the soldiers who was at the scene said that
Speaker 2: it had looked like somebody raising their arms in, surrender
Speaker 2: like The North koreans were. Surrendering, YEAH i saw.
Speaker 1: That kissinger tried to get a carving artist in there
Speaker 1: to shape it in the form of the middle.
Speaker 3: Finger.
Speaker 2: Right those guys are, great the chainsaw. Artists, Man, yeah
Speaker 2: it's pretty. AMAZING i don't know if the intent was
Speaker 2: ever to cut down the entire. TREE i don't think
Speaker 2: that that was the, plan even in the second, time
Speaker 2: even In Operation Paul. Bunyan but they left this. Stump
Speaker 2: everybody on THE us side just went back. Out they just.
Speaker 2: Withdrew the operation was, successful but things were still quite.
Speaker 2: Tense it's not it wasn't clear Whether North korea was
Speaker 2: going to respond, still just because the operation was done
Speaker 2: and now there weren't a bunch of Troops america or
Speaker 2: THE Un. Command they just kept patrolling The Joint Security
Speaker 2: area like it was any other day because that's what
Speaker 2: it was supposed to. Be even though this operation had,
Speaker 2: commenced it was now, over so things were supposed to
Speaker 2: go back to, normal but we still had no idea
Speaker 2: What North korea was going to.
Speaker 1: Do, so you, know pretext to this was they were
Speaker 1: very unapologetic about the whole incident leading up to, that
Speaker 1: like After Captain boniface And Lieutenant barrett were, killed but
Speaker 1: After Paul bunyan they thankfully backed off that there wasn't
Speaker 1: like an expressed, apology But President Kim il sung did
Speaker 1: express regret for those, deaths so they clearly were sort
Speaker 1: of backing down at this, point you, know much to everyone's.
Speaker 1: Relief and it was this incident that basically everyone was, like,
Speaker 1: hey you know, what.
Speaker 3: Maybe this maybe we didn't think this through.
Speaker 1: How this thing operates with these guys all being here
Speaker 1: in the same place at all, times and so it's
Speaker 1: set up much differently. Now so the actual line that
Speaker 1: runs the link of THE dmc is the actual dividing
Speaker 1: line even through THE gs THE.
Speaker 2: Jsa, yeah that dividing, line the military demarcation, line that
Speaker 2: is the actual border as far AS i, understand Between
Speaker 2: North korea And South korea with THE dmz buffers on
Speaker 2: either side of, It and they just ignored it in THE,
Speaker 2: jsa but then they started enforcing. It so now The
Speaker 2: North korean troops and THE u And command troops do not,
Speaker 2: intermingle even though their posts are feet away from one. Another,
Speaker 2: yeah it would be a really big deal for one
Speaker 2: to attack the other because you would be crossing the.
Speaker 2: Border now there's no free fight. Invasion it would be
Speaker 2: an enormous. Deal it'd be an international. Incident and in,
Speaker 2: fact there was something like that in nineteen eighty. Four
Speaker 2: there was A soviet exchange student who was on a
Speaker 2: tour with The North koreans who ran across the border
Speaker 2: to defect into The west and a firefight started that
Speaker 2: resulted in the deaths of Three North koreans and ONE
Speaker 2: u In Command South korean, Soldier and it was a, huge,
Speaker 2: again an international incident because some of The North korean
Speaker 2: troops had run across the demarcation line to chase after the. Defector,
Speaker 2: yeah for.
Speaker 1: Sure so everyone is like pretty happy and considered it
Speaker 1: a success except For. Kissinger of, course The North koreans
Speaker 1: back down really, quickly so it really didn't give him
Speaker 1: any chance during this election year to kind of tout
Speaker 1: some big victory Of. AMERICA i, mean it was a,
Speaker 1: victory BUT i don't think it was like some huge
Speaker 1: international news thing he. Wanted he still wanted them to
Speaker 1: have blown up the barracks or to taken out like
Speaker 1: a warship or two as like a big show of.
Speaker 1: Force so everyone was pretty stoked except For Old.
Speaker 2: Henry so they left that poplar tree there as a,
Speaker 2: reminder a monument of. Sorts, actually until the tenth anniversary
Speaker 2: of the axe murder incident On august, eighteenth nineteen eighty,
Speaker 2: six they pulled the tree, out stump and, all roots and,
Speaker 2: all and replaced it with a Memorial and there's a
Speaker 2: plaque on it that reads on this spot was located
Speaker 2: the yellow poplar tree which was the focal point of
Speaker 2: the axe murders of Two United nations command, officers Kept
Speaker 2: Arthur bonifas And First Lieutenant Mark, barrett who were attacked
Speaker 2: and killed By North korean guards while supervising a work
Speaker 2: party trimming the tree on Eighteen august nineteen seventy, six
Speaker 2: and it's just so plainly put without any flowery language
Speaker 2: that it also just kind of gets across the horrible
Speaker 2: absurdity of the whole. Thing, yeah for.
Speaker 1: Sure and just a few years, ago in twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: two that was a sort of a.
Speaker 3: Joint show of.
Speaker 1: Not, friendship but like maybe we should kind of literally
Speaker 1: put this to rest by planting a. TREE i think
Speaker 1: the presidents of the two countries got together in THE
Speaker 1: jsa to plant a pine tree of, peace and they took,
Speaker 1: turned shoveling soil from each, side watered it with rivers
Speaker 1: from each, side and the pine tree Of peace became you,
Speaker 1: know and right now is sort of a big symbol
Speaker 1: of kind of what happened there and maybe let's try
Speaker 1: and just chill things out a little.
Speaker 2: Bit. Yeah what made it even more significant was that
Speaker 2: The South korean president Moonjay in was actually one of
Speaker 2: The South korean commandos who took part in. Operation, yeah it's.
Speaker 2: Crazy and then there's one other little note THAT i
Speaker 2: found pretty. Interesting there's a one whole par three well.
Speaker 2: GOLF i don't think you could call it a, course
Speaker 2: but it's it's like an astro turf part, well a
Speaker 2: par three that's surrounded by land mines now where the
Speaker 2: poplar tree used to, be and it's called the most
Speaker 2: dangerous hole in golf From Sports.
Speaker 1: Illustrated, yeah and we never really, said you, know we
Speaker 1: kind of hinted around that this might have been all
Speaker 1: planned to begin.
Speaker 3: With and there is circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 1: That suggests that that whole attack was pre planned to begin, with,
Speaker 1: right you, know BECAUSE i mentioned that we had gotten
Speaker 1: in touch with him and, said, hey we're going to
Speaker 1: prune this, tree and no one really said, like, no
Speaker 1: don't do, that and so that attack seemingly came out of.
Speaker 1: Nowhere but one big clue, WAS i think three minutes
Speaker 1: after this incident, Occurred Radio, pyonyang which is The North
Speaker 1: korean state, radio they broadcast a very biased report on,
Speaker 1: this like right after it. Happened so it seems pretty
Speaker 1: clear that it was pre, planned but analysis later on
Speaker 1: seems to indicate that The soviets did not know about
Speaker 1: it and they were kind of acting on their. Own.
Speaker 2: NO i saw one other piece of circumstantial evidence too
Speaker 2: that kind of is pretty, definitive is that within five
Speaker 2: hours there was a non aligned, nation which where the
Speaker 2: nations during The Cold war who didn't choose. Sides all
Speaker 2: of them were meeting In, korea and within five, Hours
Speaker 2: korean delegates were at that meeting handing out memos describing
Speaker 2: this the axe murders and totally blaming it on The,
Speaker 2: americans like had completely flipped it around in an effort
Speaker 2: to kind of drum up support to get The americans.
Speaker 2: Out so that's it does seem pretty likely that The
Speaker 2: North koreans planned the axe. Murders, YEAH i, agreed you
Speaker 2: got anything?
Speaker 3: Else got nothing?
Speaker 2: Else this is a good, one. Man hats off to
Speaker 2: the the person or people who suggested, it and maybe
Speaker 2: listen out for a future random episode where we thank
Speaker 2: you for.
Speaker 3: IT i couldn't find. IT i might have found this
Speaker 3: on my.
Speaker 2: Own i'll help. You, look you know.
Speaker 1: WHAT i. THINK i was looking for live show topics
Speaker 1: and came across.
Speaker 2: This oh, Cool, yeah this would have been a good.
Speaker 2: One but there's there's a lot of downers. Too, yeah
Speaker 2: not a lot of, jokey ridiculous. Stuff, yeah do you
Speaker 2: have anything? ELSE i do? Not, Okay well that means
Speaker 2: it's time for. Listener.
Speaker 1: Man i'm gonna call this the pain of, preemption because
Speaker 1: that's What michael called. It, hey, guys Love Saturday Morning cartoon.
Speaker 1: EPISODE i was born in eighty four and watched them
Speaker 1: well into high. School your episode covered a, lot but
Speaker 1: you left out one, thing the pain of. Preemption local
Speaker 1: channels carried the big networks would often cut off the
Speaker 1: cartoons to show.
Speaker 3: Golf baseball or other.
Speaker 1: Sports and as a, KID i, KNOW i never knew
Speaker 1: when this is gonna. Happen just, suddenly the joy of
Speaker 1: cartoon was abruptly halted show a golf match that no
Speaker 1: kid would care. ABOUT i never got to see The
Speaker 1: christmas Special, christopher The Christmas, tree or the last episode
Speaker 1: Of Ultimate. Muscle you haven't heard of any either one of.
Speaker 2: THOSE i haven't, Either BUT i still feel for, him he.
Speaker 1: SAID i don't want to bring down the, room but
Speaker 1: it's important to remember that those wonderful mornings could be
Speaker 1: broken at any. Time thanks for making such a great.
Speaker 1: Show that is From michael j. Crandall AND i forgot
Speaker 1: to Mention. Michael his initial salutation was Dear mike And.
Speaker 2: Josh, wow he's got himself on the. BRAIN i. Know,
Speaker 2: well that was a great, Email, michael and thank you
Speaker 2: To mike for reading.
Speaker 3: It, Okay i'll Be.
Speaker 2: Mike, no you're Not, mike Your. Chuck everybody knows.
Speaker 1: That that's my brother's middle name, too, though so that
Speaker 1: was a plat Yeah, Scott.
Speaker 3: Mike oh, no, no, no that's his first.
Speaker 1: NAME i forget my brother and my sister their middle
Speaker 1: name is their, name which is.
Speaker 3: Interesting i'm not sure why that.
Speaker 2: Happened this has gotten so confusing to.
Speaker 3: Me He's Michael, scott is he?
Speaker 2: Really? Yeah that's. Awesome why are you calling him that
Speaker 2: all the?
Speaker 3: TIME i don't, KNOW i probably.
Speaker 1: SHOULD i, mean that's the office, guy, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: YEAH i never have thought about that until right.
Speaker 2: Now well that's What i'm going to call him from now.
Speaker 2: On all, Right, okay if you want to be Like
Speaker 2: michael crandall Not Michael scott and send us an, email
Speaker 2: we would love. That please. Do you can send it
Speaker 2: off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot.
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