Speaker 1: Welcome to Made by Women by the Seneca Women Podcast
Speaker 1: Network and I Heart Radio. At a moment when businesses
Speaker 1: face some of the biggest challenges in recent history, we
Speaker 1: bring you inspiring stories, practical insights, and shared learnings to
Speaker 1: help you successfully navigate in today's environment. Every Thursday, Made
Speaker 1: by Women will showcase the experiences of legendary women, entrepreneurs,
Speaker 1: fierce up and comers, and everyday women who found success
Speaker 1: their own way. Consider this your real world NBA designed
Speaker 1: for the new Now. I am Sharon Bowen. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. Every family business is unique,
Speaker 1: but few family businesses can rival mckissic McKissick for longevity, impact,
Speaker 1: and fascinating history. Mckissic and because it is the oldest
Speaker 1: woman and minority own professional design and construction firm in
Speaker 1: the US. While it was officially founded in nineteen o five,
Speaker 1: the company's roots actually go back to seventeen ninety to
Speaker 1: a slave named Moses mckinzick, who learned the art of brickmaking.
Speaker 1: Since two thousand, the firm has been led by President
Speaker 1: and CEO Sure mckasick Daniel, and it has been involved
Speaker 1: in some of New York's most high profile projects including
Speaker 1: at Laguaria and JFK Airports and the Barkley Center. Please
Speaker 1: enjoy my conversation with Ryl mckasick Daniel So, Cheryl, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. I'm made by women First, Cheryl,
Speaker 1: can you tell us what is McKissick and how long
Speaker 1: has your company been around? So, McKissick McKissick is the
Speaker 1: nation's old black owned design and construction firm. We date
Speaker 1: back five generations to the late seven seen hundreds early
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. However, we did not incorporate until nineteen oh
Speaker 1: five in Nashville, Tennessee. We are architects and we are builders,
Speaker 1: construction managers, general contractors, and program managers. That sounds like
Speaker 1: you do a lot. So when did you step into
Speaker 1: your current role asque president and CEO. So I have
Speaker 1: to go back, um to our history, which I think
Speaker 1: might be quite interesting for our listening audience. Um As
Speaker 1: I said, the first descendant of our family came here
Speaker 1: as a slave. His name was Moses McKissick, and he
Speaker 1: was taught the trade of making bricks. We believe that
Speaker 1: he received his freedom around eighteen sixty or eighteen sixty
Speaker 1: five because he was able to give three hundred and
Speaker 1: sixty five thousand bricks to a wealthy family in Tennessee
Speaker 1: named the Cheers family, and they built their mansion from
Speaker 1: those bricks, and that mansion is still standing. Em bears
Speaker 1: the cornerstone of Moses mckizick the first. Moses mckizick's son,
Speaker 1: Moses mckizick the second, was a master carpenter um that
Speaker 1: was a trade back in the day for construction, and
Speaker 1: he was known for his spiral staircases and gingerbread finishes
Speaker 1: and homes in the South, but most notably he worked
Speaker 1: on the Maxwell House hotel right downtown Nashville, Tennessee, where
Speaker 1: six presidents actually stayed and visited. He had seven girls
Speaker 1: and then seven boys, a big family right. His first
Speaker 1: son was Moses mckizick the third, but because he wanted
Speaker 1: a son every time he had a girl, Moses had
Speaker 1: seven names. He had the names of all the boys
Speaker 1: that he thought he was going to have. His name
Speaker 1: is as weird as Moses. Henry aunt Edward Lewis McKissick
Speaker 1: the third and his brother is Calvin McKissick, and the
Speaker 1: two of them are the first black licensed architects in
Speaker 1: the country with license one seventeen and one eighteen in
Speaker 1: the state of Tennessee. So if you can imagine two
Speaker 1: black men going to take their license in the early
Speaker 1: two that's a whole story. And we're writing a book
Speaker 1: around that. You should And so the company was then
Speaker 1: passed down to my father that's fourth generation, and then
Speaker 1: my mother took over for several years when my father
Speaker 1: became ill, and then I've begain working in the company.
Speaker 1: In nineteen nine, my mother called up my boss at
Speaker 1: Turner Construction. UM. Turner is a large national contractor with
Speaker 1: their main office headquartered in New York City, and she
Speaker 1: told my boss, my daughter's quitting today and she's coming
Speaker 1: to work for her family firm. Okay, so that was
Speaker 1: gonna be my questions is gonna I was gonna ask you,
Speaker 1: did you plan to join your family family's business. But
Speaker 1: like I kind of see how that unfolded. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: um coming to New York and UM seeing what what
Speaker 1: black businesses were doing here and black people little hole.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I had a lot of friends
Speaker 1: who were investment bankers. As you know, I knew you.
Speaker 1: One of the most prominent attorneys in town. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: I began to say to myself, why would I be
Speaker 1: bothered with the company in Nashville, Tennessee, even though it's
Speaker 1: my family owned business, is my inheritance, UM, and I
Speaker 1: would be fifth generation because as a young person, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't see always the value and owning your own UM.
Speaker 1: And I can tell you I'm not sure that I
Speaker 1: would have joined the family business so soon if my
Speaker 1: mother had not stepped in and solicited my help. And
Speaker 1: you know, following her lead has probably been one of
Speaker 1: the best things I've ever done, because there's the ability
Speaker 1: to create your own destiny and when you have your
Speaker 1: own business, and and so I look back, it's been
Speaker 1: thirty years, thirty one years, and you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's been a terrific ride. That's amazing. UM. And so
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would have done that on my own.
Speaker 1: I had to be kind of forced. It sounds like
Speaker 1: it was a good decision in the long run, and
Speaker 1: especially given the long and rich history. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for sharing that with us. So once you're doing
Speaker 1: how did you make your own mark and execute your
Speaker 1: own vision for the company? Well, research and understanding that
Speaker 1: I had a portfolio, UM, but that portfolio really did
Speaker 1: not apply to New York as US. New Yorkers know,
Speaker 1: we're the greatest place in the world. We don't want
Speaker 1: to hear from people coming from out of town. We don't,
Speaker 1: you know, we we have enough of our own here UM.
Speaker 1: And so coming from uh Washington, d C. Where I
Speaker 1: was in school, and then having this portfolio basically from
Speaker 1: the southeast, UM, really only helped me in deciding what
Speaker 1: areas I wanted to go and pursue. And I knew
Speaker 1: that that would be architecture and construction management. And so
Speaker 1: being a salesperson, I can say, well, we did this
Speaker 1: work over here in the South, but you know, we
Speaker 1: know New York is different. But I've been here working
Speaker 1: all these years, and now I understand, you know, all
Speaker 1: the idiosyncrasies around construction here in New York City. And
Speaker 1: so my strategy was to first develop strategic alliances with
Speaker 1: companies like mine that were much bigger, the Turners, the Skanskas,
Speaker 1: and a lot of those companies are are gone now
Speaker 1: because they've all been swallowed up, and so too developed
Speaker 1: strategic alliances with those companies as well as participate in
Speaker 1: the newly formed m w B E programs. UM. I
Speaker 1: believe when I first started my business, that was probably
Speaker 1: year one or two that the state had an m
Speaker 1: w B E program and the city was beginning to
Speaker 1: start there's with the school Construction Authority. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us what the m b W A program? I know
Speaker 1: what it is, but can you tell us what that
Speaker 1: is and the world that it played in sort of
Speaker 1: your decision making. So m w B stands for women
Speaker 1: and Minority Business Enterprises and those are programs UM geared
Speaker 1: to engage minority and women owned business firms. To be
Speaker 1: a minority and women owned business more than so of
Speaker 1: the company has to be owned by a woman or
Speaker 1: a minority. And over the years, New York State, in
Speaker 1: New York City and various agencies and now the private
Speaker 1: sector have set up programs where UM they challenge the
Speaker 1: A E C community which is my community and goods
Speaker 1: and services to make sure that they hire these types
Speaker 1: of businesses. And early on, let's say the goals were
Speaker 1: you know, ten or five percent of city agencies would
Speaker 1: go to MWB E firms. That has now grown to
Speaker 1: UM and so these firms have been very instrumental and
Speaker 1: leveling the playing field for firms like ours and given
Speaker 1: us the ability to get started with very little capital
Speaker 1: UM and very little access quite frankly two decision makers
Speaker 1: when it comes to contracts. These programs UM have given
Speaker 1: us direct contact with UM city officials and and commissioners
Speaker 1: UM who make the decisions on you know, most of
Speaker 1: the contracting community, contracting community for a EC and that's architecture,
Speaker 1: engineering and construction. It sounds like, no, it's that a
Speaker 1: great program, but so they given where we are right
Speaker 1: now with the economy, that would seem to me we
Speaker 1: need programs like that more than ever. Yes, And you
Speaker 1: know what, Sharon, we are seeing now more because what
Speaker 1: happened over time is there became a disparity within the disparity.
Speaker 1: So what a disparity study is conducted by an agency,
Speaker 1: a city, a state to determine first what is the
Speaker 1: capacity to contract with minority and women on firms and
Speaker 1: then UM what the actual goals should be as far
Speaker 1: as minority and women on firms. So women firms may
Speaker 1: have a goal, minority men may have a goal UM,
Speaker 1: Minority women may have a goal. And what happened over
Speaker 1: time is more women businesses begin to get more work
Speaker 1: then the minority businesses, and now the disparity studies are
Speaker 1: showing a disparity within the disparity. So recently various UM
Speaker 1: cities like New York UM and the State of New
Speaker 1: York have started to begin programs targeting black business or
Speaker 1: Latino business because that is where the disparity, you know,
Speaker 1: lies with the Latino and black female receiving you know,
Speaker 1: much less work than than all the other categories within
Speaker 1: the m w B program. So in that regard as
Speaker 1: a woman not only working in construction but leading a
Speaker 1: construction company, can you talk a little bit about what
Speaker 1: challenges that you faced or continue to face UM as
Speaker 1: an entrepreneur. Early on, it was all about capital. UM.
Speaker 1: We could not get a lot of credit. UM we
Speaker 1: we UM had to meet payroll. So how do you
Speaker 1: pay payroll while you're waiting for your invoices to go
Speaker 1: through a New York City or New York's State UM
Speaker 1: Procurement department. UM. And you know what was interesting is
Speaker 1: I knew some investment bankers then, and UM five investment
Speaker 1: bankers actually invested in McKissick. And that's how I really
Speaker 1: got my business off the ground. They each gave me
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars and I had it. They gave it
Speaker 1: to me for six months, and at the end of
Speaker 1: six months, I gave them six thousand dollars. So back
Speaker 1: then that was a good return. That's a real good return,
Speaker 1: it really is. That's that's that's creative finance. I mean,
Speaker 1: in particularly, you know, the access to capital. You figured
Speaker 1: out a way to to solve for that by reaching
Speaker 1: I guess to your own networks. UM. So of a
Speaker 1: lot of women entrepreneurs have probably have done the same thing,
Speaker 1: because we do know that access to capital has been
Speaker 1: a big challenge for women entrepreneurs. And you know, again
Speaker 1: with the economy being as it is today, this this
Speaker 1: this issue is really prominent. I totally agree with that.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, as a result of the interests
Speaker 1: of these investment bank because I've never forgotten that and
Speaker 1: what that meant for me. So all along the way,
Speaker 1: I have tried to help firms. UM. But recently, about
Speaker 1: a year ago, a good friend of mine, a black engineer,
Speaker 1: we started a firm called Legacy Engineering for the sole
Speaker 1: purpose of giving young engineers ownership and allowing them to
Speaker 1: be entrepreneurs. UM. And I say that because our model
Speaker 1: is we are owners of the company right now. We've
Speaker 1: brought in for young black engineers and in five years
Speaker 1: returning the entire company over to them and we will exit.
Speaker 1: And so that's setting up you know, black businesses for
Speaker 1: the future, but also mentoring them on how to be
Speaker 1: business owners. Yeah, we just don't do it by ourselves.
Speaker 1: We've hired consultants to come in and teach these young
Speaker 1: men really how to be owners. So hopefully in five
Speaker 1: years they'll be ready to take it over, because I
Speaker 1: know I'll be ready to pass it over. I like
Speaker 1: the name Legacy Engineers to I understand that the need
Speaker 1: to pass to be time on. We'll be back with
Speaker 1: senecas made by women after this short break. You were
Speaker 1: talking about challenges, and you know we have had to
Speaker 1: deal challenges. My company has overcome slavery, okay, slavery dem
Speaker 1: craw But when it comes to my last thirty years,
Speaker 1: you know, I think one of the things we deal
Speaker 1: with and struggle with as a minority firm is people
Speaker 1: I still think that we provide our services are inferior
Speaker 1: and that they cost more. And you'd be surprised how
Speaker 1: I still here that um that you know, we don't
Speaker 1: have any reach. Um, you know that we're not thinking
Speaker 1: on the scale of a larger business owner. UM. And
Speaker 1: and they're kind of like that can be you know,
Speaker 1: in your face, or it could just be a microaggression.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it comes in so many different ways
Speaker 1: that sometimes you have to sit and think to yourself,
Speaker 1: do I even want to deal with that right now? Now?
Speaker 1: I know that you've worked one some incredibly impressive projects
Speaker 1: along the way. Can you tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about some of those projects? And how did you know
Speaker 1: when they take a risk on a big project and
Speaker 1: how did you how did you tell like put ones
Speaker 1: weren't quite the right fit for you? We have had
Speaker 1: the players are working on some very wonderful projects, iconic
Speaker 1: projects for New York. UM. You know, we were on
Speaker 1: the tappan See Bridge, LaGuardia Airport, um Delta Terminal, Columbia, Manhattanville.
Speaker 1: We oversee the MTA's capital program and report directly to
Speaker 1: the board on every project that's over a hundred million dollars,
Speaker 1: which is most of them. UM. So I would say
Speaker 1: we report on somewhere around three hundred projects to the
Speaker 1: board on a monthly basis, and we've had that contract
Speaker 1: for ten years UM and so that we are I
Speaker 1: am blessed to have that UM. Because of that contract,
Speaker 1: we've been able to build a national transit package and
Speaker 1: we are working in l A, Florida, Miami, Dallas, and Chicago. UM,
Speaker 1: so we've been able to expand off of that one project.
Speaker 1: UM risk is a whole another story. I mean, we've
Speaker 1: taken on projects that we probably shouldn't have and that's
Speaker 1: the best way to learn, you know, it's a peri.
Speaker 1: At the time that you know, most of our work
Speaker 1: was general contracting. We were lumps on bidding it and
Speaker 1: you know, in in that environment you can take on
Speaker 1: ten good jobs and one bad job and go out
Speaker 1: of business. And so, you know, we had our ups
Speaker 1: and downs in that area of work and I think
Speaker 1: now we've gotten it to where, you know, we're we're
Speaker 1: comfortable with the risk that we take there, but that
Speaker 1: that comes with experience having been hurt on projects before.
Speaker 1: You know, our new projects were getting interest from UM
Speaker 1: the tech world, so UM in the last two months,
Speaker 1: you know, we've worked with Amazon, UM, we've had several
Speaker 1: interviews with Apple, and Microsoft has a project coming up
Speaker 1: and so that's exciting. We're seeing a lot of movement.
Speaker 1: There are k through twelve or higher. It all those
Speaker 1: sectors UM seemed to be moving even during this you
Speaker 1: know COVID period. I was gonna ask you a little
Speaker 1: bit about COVID and we know that a lot of
Speaker 1: companies have had to pivot their business models and operations
Speaker 1: due to the pandemic. UM. How has COVID impacted your
Speaker 1: business and how have you been able to pivot? So
Speaker 1: it's impacted the the construction industry overall in that we
Speaker 1: have new policies. You know the number of of workers
Speaker 1: that can be on a site, so you have to
Speaker 1: work on shifts, the ppe required, you know, the cleaning
Speaker 1: required to all these things have a cost um and
Speaker 1: we're working through that UM. For our company, a lot
Speaker 1: of our work is was was deemed central because we
Speaker 1: do hospitals, UM and infrastructure work like at the m
Speaker 1: T a UM. So out of our hundred and forty people,
Speaker 1: we probably had at twelve or thirteen people who were
Speaker 1: furloughed and most of those have have come back to work,
Speaker 1: and so you know, we've kind of been blessed through this,
Speaker 1: but it has been devastating for companies that are strictly
Speaker 1: K through twelve. The School Construction Authority, all of their
Speaker 1: work was was suspended and just now beginning to come
Speaker 1: back online slowly. And then the private sector, the entire
Speaker 1: private sector was suspended. Office buildings, residential, retail, all those
Speaker 1: projects were suspended under Governor Como's law. But they're all
Speaker 1: coming back on online now. At Terminal one, we are
Speaker 1: the program manager for the new JFK terminal at Terminal one,
Speaker 1: which is where Carlisle. Carlisle has teamed with Jim Rentals
Speaker 1: from Loup Capital as well as Magic Johnson Enterprises the
Speaker 1: build Originally it was a six billion dollar terminal. We've
Speaker 1: now reduced the scope somewhat and will build out parts
Speaker 1: of the terminal later because the airlines are saying they
Speaker 1: will not be back on line full scale, and this
Speaker 1: is optimistic till The good news is that we're fighting
Speaker 1: food through this difficult moment um and being resilient, you know,
Speaker 1: particularly as New Yorkers were pretty resilient people. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: as you know, having gone through your nine eleven and
Speaker 1: the number of other prices at this time, knowing what
Speaker 1: you do know, um was the one piece of advice
Speaker 1: that you got that was crucial to your success or
Speaker 1: your career path. I would say there are two specific
Speaker 1: things that I have taken for me. One is out
Speaker 1: of my grandfather and his brother's book, and that is relationships.
Speaker 1: Because those they were two men, black men, do a
Speaker 1: business where there were no MWB programs. Everything that they
Speaker 1: did was based on some relationship that they had. Um.
Speaker 1: And the same was true for my father. Um. So
Speaker 1: building relationships, UM, I think is key. But I also
Speaker 1: think it's important to think big. You have to think
Speaker 1: outside of the rim of what you can see. UM.
Speaker 1: I think you need to. You know, for me, it
Speaker 1: was standing in Jersey City looking across the water at
Speaker 1: huge Manhattan saying to myself, one day, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be the largest black owned construction company over there over there,
Speaker 1: because I wasn't even living in Manhattan. And so I,
Speaker 1: you know, I think having the thoughts, um of where
Speaker 1: you can go. You know, I heard someone say recently
Speaker 1: the Green Book, which used to tell black people where
Speaker 1: they could stay in the South, is really just Airbnb today. Um.
Speaker 1: And so that's this think of that could have been
Speaker 1: a possibility for the person who came up with the
Speaker 1: Green Book. Yes, that's that I like that analogy, so
Speaker 1: I assumed that that your advice to young entrepreneurs who
Speaker 1: are moving up in their career path. It sounds to
Speaker 1: me that you would give them that same piece of
Speaker 1: advice in terms of building relationships and thinking big, any
Speaker 1: other surposal wisdom that you would would share with them.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's really the truth of the matter
Speaker 1: is being an entreeur manure has uh, it's ups and downs.
Speaker 1: You know, it's gonna be an abb and flow um,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna be some really low periods. It's not
Speaker 1: always good. And my road that I traveled, I would
Speaker 1: say I have been working at this for thirty years
Speaker 1: and it's only been the last five years where I
Speaker 1: felt like, you know what's Cheryl, You're fatherily at a
Speaker 1: point where you feel comfortable. Yes, you're not worried about
Speaker 1: what's coming around the corner with respect to anything that's
Speaker 1: in my power. You can stand in your own shoes
Speaker 1: and talk to anybody about anything in your industry um
Speaker 1: without feeling you know, nervous or inadequate. And you know
Speaker 1: you're being recognized in your industry by your others as
Speaker 1: being a mentor, um, as giving back to minority firms. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I'm just saying it's a journey. It's a journey.
Speaker 1: It's a journey, yes, but you know it's it's a
Speaker 1: it's a journey that um, you have navigated it quite
Speaker 1: well and I do know about the ups and downs
Speaker 1: uh career paths. Um. And you know, being positive it
Speaker 1: is really important. So in this moment in time, what
Speaker 1: makes you optimistic? Well, UM, I think that based really
Speaker 1: people are good or they weren't good. They want the best.
Speaker 1: And in this period where you know the ratio inequalities
Speaker 1: that other people are seeing it, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: we've been seeing it forever. When I was nine at
Speaker 1: a friend's house for birthday party and we came outside,
Speaker 1: there was a huge cross burning in the yard in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 1: So I mean that kind of changed my existence in
Speaker 1: my world. Um. And so what I'm seeing now is
Speaker 1: everybody is beginning to understand, if they want to, that
Speaker 1: there is a racial inequality in this country and a
Speaker 1: lot of them are thinking we need to do something
Speaker 1: about it. And that is extremely encouraging. So I mean,
Speaker 1: I hope it really amounts to something. I'm optimistic there.
Speaker 1: Um as well, and we look forward to what the future.
Speaker 1: We can we can we create a better world? Um,
Speaker 1: which is important. It is so as we lined down,
Speaker 1: let me ask, is there one particular question that you
Speaker 1: wished I have. I should have asked you who is
Speaker 1: my mentor? Oh, that's a good question. Who what's your
Speaker 1: who is your mentor? My mother? That's great, that's great.
Speaker 1: Here's a lady who had a master's degree in psychology,
Speaker 1: who took over a business in the eighties early eighties
Speaker 1: when women were not supposed to be in construction, and
Speaker 1: she had the foresight and fortitude to know that she
Speaker 1: needed to hold onto this business and make sure that
Speaker 1: her three daughters, not a son, her three daughters followed
Speaker 1: in her footsteps and in the footsteps of their ancestors.
Speaker 1: That's great. I'm sure she's extremely proud of you. But
Speaker 1: you have accomplished. I do know that you've got some
Speaker 1: brilliant sisters. I've met at least one of them. Yes,
Speaker 1: you have, Yes, my sister. It is the architect of
Speaker 1: record for the Martin Luther King Memorial, as his program
Speaker 1: manager for uh the African American Museum, and as his
Speaker 1: program manager for the Barack Obama Library well, it sounds
Speaker 1: like the blood really was running deep from your ancestors
Speaker 1: in terms of you had no choice but to be
Speaker 1: in the field that you that you're in and what
Speaker 1: a great uh you know, legacy and to to see
Speaker 1: your family business thrive um you know as it as
Speaker 1: it has. Thank you so much for joining us, and
Speaker 1: I know that our listeners will be inspired by what
Speaker 1: you share with us today. So thank you so much, SCHRL.
Speaker 1: What an amazing family one with the legacy that continues
Speaker 1: to grow. Your three valuable lessons I took from the
Speaker 1: conversationist it should advises think big, think outside the realm
Speaker 1: of what you can see. And the way to get big,
Speaker 1: she says, it's to strategically partner with companies larger than
Speaker 1: your own. Second, recognize the importance of a level playing field.
Speaker 1: Schul says that special programs for minorities and women in
Speaker 1: business can allow smaller companies to get started on their
Speaker 1: path to success. And it showed because I Daniel suggests
Speaker 1: take the long view. There will be ebbs and flows
Speaker 1: and really low parents and then there will be better times.
Speaker 1: That's just part of being an entrepreneur. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to join the Seneca Women Network go to Seneca Women
Speaker 1: dot com. There you'll get access to exclusive events and workshops,
Speaker 1: plus updates on new podcasts and other opportunities to get involved.
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