1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: and this is there are no girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: Birth control makes women unattractive and crazy. There's no hiring 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: bias against women in tech. They just suck at interviews. 6 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: Will be rather your child have feminism or cancer? All 7 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: of these completely messed up headlines where actual headlines of 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: stories published on the far right website bright bark dot com, 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: known for publishing misogynistic, xenophobic, and racist articles, dangerous conspiracy theories, 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: and deliberately misleading stories. It's also one of the most 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: important sites in the era of Trump. Their former chairman, 12 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: Steve Bannon even served as Trump's chief strategist. And where 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: there's an online website, there's brands keeping that website afloat 14 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: by giving them need to run ads on that website. 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: But one group went on a mission to make that 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: kind of racism, misogyny, and hate speech unprofitable. Sleeping Giants 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: became one of the most influential activist organizations of the 18 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: Trump era. Their strategy involved urging their members to tweet 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: screenshots of brands running ads on websites that support and 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: published hate speech, asking if those sites match their values 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: and urging them to pull their ads. In doing so, 22 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: they learned that oftentimes reputable brands have no idea what 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: sites their ads run on. Sleeping Giants was run anonymously 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: to create the impression that it was run by more 25 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: than just two people. After the conservative news outlet Daily 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: Caller published a piece out in one person behind Sleeping Giants, 27 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: Matt Rivets, he and his family faced death threats. Later, 28 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: Matt was profiled in a New York Times piece alongside 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: Sleeping Giants co founder Nandini Jammy. Sleeping Giants was so 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: successful that they contributed to Breitbart seeing drop and ad revenue. 31 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: They also contributed to a broader conversation about how reputable 32 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: brands are funding extremism by spending ad money on websites 33 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: that published hate speech. So this should be a success 34 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: story right. In July, Nandini published a scathing piece on 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: medium saying that while she believes she was working with 36 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: Man as a partner, he gaslighted her out of the 37 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: movement they built together. While they're working, relationships started on 38 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: a good note. Matt began taking high profile speaking engagements 39 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: and obscuring her role in their work, eventually erasing her altogether. 40 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: She writes, I want to share with you my journey 41 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: was sleeping giants while taking credit matters, And while you 42 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: must fight for yourself as hard as you fight for 43 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: your cause, I want to show you how a woman 44 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: of color almost disappeared from the movement she built, and 45 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: what you can achieve when you refuse to follow the 46 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: rules your white male leader sets for you. I hope 47 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: other brilliant women of color and marginalized folks see yourselves 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: in me and don't wait as long as I did. 49 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: The stakes are too high for you to disappear. Now, 50 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: Nandini is done letting her voice be left out of 51 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: the narrative. So how did you get started in this work? 52 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: In November, I was working as as head of growth 53 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: for a tech startup and I went to visit breitbar 54 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: dot com for the first time after the elections. Just 55 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: like everyone else, I was trying to figure out what 56 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: happened and what we're dealing with here, and the first 57 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: thing I noticed was ads for some of the biggest 58 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: companies in the world on this website. You know, we've 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 1: been hearing a lot about how it was putting out 60 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: pat speech and you know, misinformation and big stories and 61 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: all that stuff. But no one had ever really talked about, um, 62 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: the ads and the ads are how that website makes money. 63 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,839 Speaker 1: So I'm no genius. I just I had like run 64 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: Google ad campaign like once a couple of months before that, 65 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: and I had been quite particular about where my ads 66 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: were going. I was I was curious and interested in 67 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: making sure they were appearing in uh in sort of 68 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: reputable places on the Internet. And so the first thing 69 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: I thought of was, you know the site placements. You know, 70 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: the the marketers wore running their campaigns are not looking 71 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: at their site placements. And all we have to do 72 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: is get these um get these folks to add brighte 73 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: bart dot com to their exclusion list. If they do that, 74 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: then brighte bart will no longer make money. Like it 75 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: was kind of like a crazy idea because there are 76 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: so many companies who have Google ads, like possibly millions UM, 77 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: and the idea was to get all of them to 78 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: one by one to drop to drop right part. So UM, 79 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: I I wrote a little I wrote a Medium post 80 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: and hoped for it to go viral. UM where basically 81 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: sort of outlined this crack pot idea where I was like, 82 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: we should all just go into our Google ads added 83 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: to our exclusion list and then Breitbart won't receive our 84 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: money anymore and then they'll go out of business. And UM. 85 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: While that piece didn't go viral, the concept of tweeting 86 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: at a company, which is something that I did as 87 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: while I tweeted out at like Old maybe that was 88 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: the first at I saw UM and letting them know 89 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: that their ad is funding uh this hateful website was 90 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:43,119 Speaker 1: UM was something that that took off someone uh, someone 91 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: else on the other side of the country, my my 92 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: partner who became my partner UM had the same idea. 93 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: We we sort of went into business in that sense 94 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: in uh, in terms of reaching out to companies and 95 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: asking them to check their ads and make sure that 96 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: they have bright Bart on their on their exclusion list. 97 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: And it just kind of took off from there. So 98 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: from you writing this piece urging these brands to to 99 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: block you know, ad spins on bright Bart, this is 100 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: how you first got connected with Matt. Matt reached out 101 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: to you from this piece and thought we should work together. 102 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: How did this How did your relationship with Matt and 103 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: Sleeping Giants come to be. So I wrote this piece 104 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: on I believe it was November, and then by the 105 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: next day I had he had like tweeted at me, 106 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: same awesome article. We're doing the same thing. We should 107 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, UM, you should join us? And I was 108 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: like super excited to see that someone else had the 109 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: same idea. We moved very quickly from d MS to 110 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: email to phone. UM. Turns out like we just have 111 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: a lot in common. We're both copyriters, UM, were both 112 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: originally from Maryland. UM, and and yeah, he seems really cool, 113 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: so I wanted too. Of course they wanted to work together. UM. 114 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: I think like for me, working joining forces meant that 115 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: we were like partners. UM. He had just started Sleeping 116 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: Giants as an account a week before, and it was 117 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: it was still nothing, you know, there was maybe a 118 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: couple of dozen, maybe a couple hundred followers. UM. What 119 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: we decided to do was I would run the Facebook page. 120 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: So we started up with Facebook page, which I um 121 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: became responsible for, and he continued to learn the Twitter account. 122 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: And there was no like formal agreement or anything like 123 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: that because we never imagined that it would turn into anything. 124 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: So we were just like al right, like it was 125 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: just taking it one day at a time, flying by 126 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: the seat of our pants, kind of a deal. Nondini 127 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: and Matt hit on something big. By harnessing the power 128 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: of collective social media users to pressure brands out of 129 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: funding hate you were having a real impact. They got 130 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: thousands of brands like A T and T, BMW, Visa, Lift, 131 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,119 Speaker 1: and Warby Parker to stop running ads on Breitbart. Steve 132 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: Bannon was even recorded talking about Sleeping Giants at a 133 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: dinner in two thousand eighteen. When I left in to 134 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: takeularly campaign, we were going to make like eight million 135 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: dollars three cans flow that after we won UM. This 136 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: group called Sleeping Giants a group of technics. They literally 137 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: stripped out. They went to the thirty five exchanges that 138 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: sell the ads, so the ad revenues dropped like nineties. 139 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: They even got Breitbart so mad that after Kellogg's pulled 140 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: their ads, Breitbart tried to organize an embarrassingly unsuccessful counterboycott, 141 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: which Kellogg said had no discernible impact on their sales. 142 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: After it was revealed that Fox News is Bill O'Reilly 143 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: settled five different sexual harassment suits Sleeping giants pressured brands 144 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: to stop advertising on a show. In a week's time, 145 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: the O'Riley factor I lost more than half of its 146 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: advertisers and Bill O'Reilly went on vacation and never returned. 147 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: What were some of the successes that you all had 148 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: with Sleeping Giants that you were really proud of? Oh 149 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: my god, we did We did so much. Um. I 150 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: mean there was just a daily brind of of getting 151 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: ads to drop we I mean just the first few months, 152 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: the first few months of this campaign was every day, um, 153 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of dozen brands or whatever would 154 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: would drop right Bart. Sometimes it would be like really 155 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: big ones. So our first big win was Kelloggs. That 156 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: was like that resulted in uh, bright Bart starting a 157 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: campaign called I think it was like dump Kelloggs or something, 158 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: and it was it completely backfired and think they were 159 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: like Kelloggs, Kelloggs doesn't support our uh you know brighte 160 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 1: Bart readers, so we're going we're gonna We're gonna dump 161 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: Kellogg's in the sink or something like that. It was 162 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: so stupid, um, but it gave us our first international headlines, 163 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: so that was really cool. Um. But yeah, the first 164 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: the first couple of months was just like just like 165 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: every every so often, some big brand would come out 166 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: and be like, yeah, we're not we don't support the ship, 167 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: and then um, after a while, we we felt like 168 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: we could, you know, start working on other things. The 169 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: first time we moved out of the sort of grew 170 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: out of the breitbartwork was when we decided to target 171 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: Bill O'Reilly's advertisers. Bill O'Reilly had been sexually harassing his 172 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: colleagues in the workplace for um a period of decades, 173 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: and The New York Times reported on it. We were like, well, 174 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: this really does this fits into our our mission statement 175 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: of making bigotry and sexism unprofitable, and we felt like 176 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: this is something we could take on. So we um, 177 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: we decided to contact Bill O'Reilly advertisers using the same 178 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: exactmo that we did with breite bar, just you know, 179 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: presenting them with the information and letting them make their 180 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: own decision. And Bill O'Reilly lost dozens of advertisers, and 181 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: a couple of months later he was on spring break 182 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: and or an unplanned vacation or whatever planned vacation heavy 183 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: scare quotes around that, I know, right, Yeah, and then 184 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: he was he was gone, and they were like, wow, 185 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: we were really onto something and um, and then we 186 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: went on to uh target Tucker Carlson's advertisers. He's lost 187 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: over I believe eight advertisers over the past two years 188 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: that we've been working on that. Um. His show is 189 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: basically uh unprofitable. It's one of the highest rated shows 190 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: on television. It just doesn't bring in any money. Yeah. 191 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: Just as a side note, one of my day jobs 192 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: involves working with a feminist activist group and we've targeted 193 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson over the years. And I don't know what 194 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: the deal is, but it's like that guy just keeps 195 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: hanging on. We can't we can't seem to get him 196 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: out of here. I think it's a lot of personal spite, 197 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: to be honest, because after we got we got there, 198 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: there was one advertiser, um who uh there their their 199 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: language learning app called Babel, and they put out quite 200 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: the blistering statement on their Tucker Carlson ads. UM. They 201 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: were sort of caught, uh caught unawares, and they responded 202 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: to our tweet saying, uh, this is uh We're so sorry. 203 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: We never um, you know, we're disappointed that our ads 204 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: showed up on Tucker Carlson. We find his rhetoric to 205 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: be repugnant, and that just triggered them. Um, they released 206 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: I think their first statement specifically calling us out. Um 207 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: it was us Media Matters and move on dot Org 208 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: and it was actually, I mean, I was very proud 209 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, we're just two people running an 210 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: account in our spare time. So I felt like I 211 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: felt pretty proud of proud of ourselves. Then you should 212 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: definitely feel so proud of the work that you accomplished 213 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: with Sleeping Giants, even though it you know, you should, 214 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: no one can take that away from you. That those 215 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: are huge winds and also huge, you know, culture changing moments. 216 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: You know this idea that, yeah, brands do have a 217 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: responsibility to be a little bit choosy about with their 218 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: money goes. We should be pressuring brands to open their 219 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: eyes to where they spend their money. Like, that's a 220 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: huge cultural shift that I don't think existed before your work. 221 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: So you should definitely feel very, very proud and accomplished 222 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: about that. Thank you. So when did things start to 223 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: feel not so good working with Man on Sleeping Giants? Yeah, 224 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: so we had a really good relationship from the beginning. UM, 225 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: he was very nice to me and UM, and I 226 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: also I admired him a lot, and I UM, I 227 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: never imagined that there would ever be problems because it 228 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: was like we're we're both here every day putting in 229 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: the work, and UM and we I think there was 230 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: a lot of mutual respect. At least that's what it 231 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: felt like. When Matt realized that he was about to 232 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: be docked by the Daily Pollar, he went to The 233 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: New York Times to sort of get get ahead of 234 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: the story, and during that time asked me whether I 235 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: would like to be interviewed for the story. And I 236 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: guess I I mean I when he said that, I 237 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: think I assumed that I was being asked as a partner. 238 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: I spoke to the reporter. I told her, UM, you 239 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: know how I was involved in all the stuff that 240 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: we were doing, and you know a little bit of 241 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: background detail on on how he worked. And she asked 242 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: me if I was UM. She asked me what my 243 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: title was and I said co found under and then 244 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: she was like great. And then she comes back the 245 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: next day and does a little fact check in and UM, 246 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: and she's like, by the way, your partner said that 247 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: you are not a co founder, and I was like, oh, okay, 248 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: And I didn't want to make a big deal out 249 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: of it, so I didn't. I was like, just go 250 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: with whatever he says. But UM. That was sort of 251 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: the first indicator that something was off UM. And then 252 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: after that, my uh, you know, the story came out, 253 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: and my partner went on to take interviews with uh, 254 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: sort of high profile outlets like Platsy America with Carra Squsher, 255 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: spoke with Katie Kurig. And it was after his interview 256 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: with Adweek that I became concerned about UM, about everything 257 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: because he uh, he had called himself UM. He was 258 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: positioning himself as co founder, which was fined by me. 259 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: But in that article, I was positioned or portrayed as UM, 260 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: one of the individuals helping him run the accounts. So 261 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: at that point I called a meeting and I said, hey, listen, 262 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to be portrayed as your helper or 263 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: your assistant. It's important that I UM that I'm also 264 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: portrayed as a leader, because you know, I have been 265 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: involved in this work for the whole time, and I 266 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: realized that I'm in a really unique position like both 267 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: of us were both in a very unique position to 268 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: be able to influence the advertising industry. And I want 269 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: to be able to speak at conferences and events, and 270 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: I want to be present at the table when some 271 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: of these big decisions are being made. And that's why 272 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: it's important to me to have a title. UM. So 273 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: I you know, we had that discussion and he said, UM, 274 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: I completely understand. Let's get you a title. You can 275 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: call yourself, UM, you know, whatever you want, obviously not founder. 276 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm a founder, so you can call yourself, you know, 277 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: come up with any So I said, how about founding organizer? 278 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: And he agreed to that. So that is UM, That's 279 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: what I called myself for about a year. During that time, 280 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: he he continued to position himself as founder, of course, 281 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: and was able to leverage that too, UM to get 282 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: invited to big conferences. Uh you know, I don't know, 283 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: for example, south By Southwest and UM Advertising Week and 284 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: so on. And I just kind of felt like I 285 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: was flailing. I didn't really have an opportunity to um 286 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: to you know, to to speak at anything like that, 287 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: because I mean I didn't have a title, and b 288 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: I didn't have any contacts in the industry. I truly 289 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: was sort of cast out on my own again, like 290 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: advertising isn't really my world. I don't have connections that 291 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: industry I worked in, like the tech startup scene. It's 292 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: a totally different world. So UM, so it was. It was. 293 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: It was frustrating I couldn't get to where I wanted 294 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: to be. So what I did was I asked him 295 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: for I basically asked him for the scraps. I was like, 296 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: can I like, would you mind telling me about some 297 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: of these conferences that you're going to. I would love 298 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: to come along. I would like to be your plus one. Um, 299 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: you know, we can work the room together, we can 300 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: meet more people together. UM. You know. I was always 301 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: really careful about I don't want to steal your thunder. 302 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: I don't want the attention. I just want to be 303 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: working in the background. UM two, I don't know to 304 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: to to make something happen. And um and he would 305 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, there was there was a power differential there 306 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: because he this is his industry, and he's older than me, 307 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: and he knows more people than me, and he would 308 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: bring that up quite frequently in the calls that we had. UM. 309 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: I was sort of outlining my issues, so he never 310 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: really um, you know, he'd always say, yeah, sure I 311 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: will you know, I'll let you know, i'll give you 312 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: I'll give you a shout if these if these things happened, 313 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: But he never did that. There was a couple of 314 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: other things that concerned me. I didn't have any access 315 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: to the general Inquiries email, just like I just didn't 316 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: know what was coming into into the organization, Like was 317 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: he receiving media opportunities there um or opportunities to speak, 318 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: private consulting opportunities. These were the kinds of things that 319 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: weren't coming to me necessarily. Um he was asking me too. 320 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: He had asked me to send all press requests to 321 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: him because that would help us stay on message. So 322 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: you don't want too many people speaking to the press. 323 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 1: I thought that was a little weird because you know, 324 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: I was writing the Facebook account pletely independently. It's not 325 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: like I was getting permission from him before I wrote 326 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: post or anything like that. So it's not like I 327 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: would model the message because I know what the message is. 328 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: I write the message every day. I don't think I 329 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: just I don't like I'm not involved in anything related 330 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: to the merch shop. I don't know how much money 331 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: is being made. I don't know how it's been spent um. 332 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: When I asked for access to that, he said, you're 333 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: just gonna have to trust me, And yeah, I didn't know. 334 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't know what to do with that. 335 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: We'll be right back, let's get right back into it. 336 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: As Matt's public profile grew, Nandini's role in Sleeping Giants 337 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: was obscured. As she writes in her medium piece on Twitter, 338 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: Matt began to replace what was once a collective we 339 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: with I and my The work I had done with 340 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: sleep Giants was also appearing on his conference bio. The 341 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: vagueness that once helped us look like a mysterious group 342 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: bigger than we were was now being claimed solely by him. 343 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: I didn't have the media attention or connections that Matt did. 344 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: I wasn't forty five white, and I certainly didn't know 345 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: anybody in advertising. I was young, unknown, and invisible. It's 346 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: difficult for me to hear about Nundini's experience with Sleeping Giants. 347 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: I certainly know what it's like to be passed over 348 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: for being credited or compensated for my work, and if 349 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: you're a woman, especially a woman of color, you probably 350 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: know what that feels like too. I've avoided speaking up 351 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: because I didn't want to seem like a bragger or 352 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: someone who couldn't share the spotlight, or worse, someone who 353 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: was only interested in accolades. And in our deeply sexist culture, 354 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: is there anything more shameful than being a woman who 355 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: wants success? And it's especially tricky when you're working for 356 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: social change. The implication of being that we should all 357 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: be doing the work just because we care about making change, 358 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: not be because we want credit. But this line of 359 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: thinking can actually be kind of a trap that keeps 360 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: us from taking what's ours while our winds are claimed 361 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: by somebody else. You're not an attention seeker for wanting 362 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: to be acknowledged for your work. One thing that I 363 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: hear time and time again is why it's important to 364 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: get credit. I feel like people really need to understand 365 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: that it's not about fame and fortune and the limelight. Unfortunately, 366 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: the way that it works in the in many tech 367 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: industries is if you don't have a title, or if 368 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: you don't if you're not able to point to something 369 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: and say yeah, I did that, you're not going to 370 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: get invited to the conference, You're not going to get 371 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: invited to speak, You're not going to get you know, 372 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: the consulting opportunity, You're not going to be able to 373 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: build up your platform to be able to have a 374 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: bigger footprint to do the kind of work and make 375 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: the kind of change that you want to make. And 376 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: so when women, particularly women of color, advocate for themselves 377 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: to get the title, to get the credit, it's not 378 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: because we're fame hungry, you know, attention hungry, you know, 379 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: spotlight hogs. It's because if we don't have those things, 380 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: we're not going to be able to have the kind 381 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 1: of impact that we want to be able to have. 382 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: And so I think that, I mean, I guess I 383 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: know that I have often felt a little skittish about 384 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: asking for a title or because I don't want to 385 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: look like I'm trying to, you know, be a fame 386 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: a fame hug or something, when in reality, it's just 387 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: how it's just the nature of how a lot of 388 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: these businesses work. But I mean, you said it, that's 389 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: exactly right. I was so afraid of looking like for 390 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: being perceived as someone who just wanted attention that I 391 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: tried to sidestuff that issue by uh by denying my 392 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: self credit and by sort of actively staying away from 393 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: the titles that would have given me the power I 394 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: needed as a co founder. When I finally made that 395 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: shift from a nonsense title founding organizer doesn't mean anything. 396 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: It's like assistant to the regional manager. Um. When I 397 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: made that shift, uh, I just I found that people 398 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: responded to me differently. I found that I took myself 399 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: more seriously. UM. It was really eye opening to me 400 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: to see how how important titles are for people who 401 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: are not traditionally viewed as leaders in the society. UM. 402 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: I almost underestimated myself, Like how I guess I didn't 403 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: realize how the how the world sees me that was. 404 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: That was something that I kind of learned the hard 405 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: way the world. Uh. You know, despite the fact that 406 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: I was good at what I do, that I had 407 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: demonstrated my my abilities, I people looked at me and 408 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: didn't see me as a leader. They a lot, I'm 409 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: sure a lot of people still don't. UM. So, really 410 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: claiming that title is one of the most important things 411 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,959 Speaker 1: that you can do. And I don't want anyone to 412 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: think that um that doing that is is some kind 413 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: of of making a bee line for the fame and 414 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: fortune or the glory of it all. Nandini decided that 415 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: she was going to stop playing by the rules Matt 416 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: set for her, the rules that allowed him to grow 417 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: his public profile while she went't forgotten and overlooked the 418 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: rules that allowed Matt to fly to France to accept 419 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: the prestigious Cans Lion Award, essentially the Oscars of the 420 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: creative industry on behalf of the organization they created together 421 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: without even telling her. So when did you decide I 422 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: am going to claim this title for myself. I'm going 423 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: to walk in walk in this title and walk in 424 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: this purpose. And I don't care what Matt thinks. It 425 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: was after. It was after he deemed me a picture 426 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: of himself accepting a Can Gold Lion in June nineteen, 427 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: and it was super casual, like, hey, we just want 428 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: a candle Gold Lion. And he hadn't told me he 429 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: was going to be in France. That he hadn't told, Like, 430 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: I've found out through Instagram that he was in Can. 431 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: I had to d m him and be like, oh cool, 432 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,239 Speaker 1: you're in Europe, and uh yeah, it was. It was. 433 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: It was really shocking, and I had That was a 434 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,719 Speaker 1: very hol week for me because first of all, I, 435 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: as I said, I'm not from the industry, so I 436 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: knew the cand gold line was a big deal, but 437 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that it was like the oscars of 438 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: the ad industry. And I was receiving messages from all 439 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: sorts of people that I that never talked to me 440 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: were like Wow, congratulations, and it was it was. It 441 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: was like additional emotional labor for me. I had to 442 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: I had to basically lie on his behalf, you know. 443 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: People asked me why I wasn't there, and if I 444 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: said the truth, I wasn't invited, I wasn't told. That 445 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: would that would sort of blow our cover, right, and 446 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: I didn't want to create problems for sleeping giants, So 447 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: I just I was like, yeah, I just couldn't make it. 448 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: So I realized at that point that I was I 449 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: was not actually ever going to be made a part 450 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: of this campaign. I was being actively erased from the story. Um. 451 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: I was not mentioned anywhere at one of our our 452 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: sort of highest points of our campaign. And I realized 453 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: that all the things that I had been doing over 454 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: the past year. We're only serving to We're only serving 455 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: him and allowing him to sort of accumulate power. And 456 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: I was giving up my power. I was giving up 457 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: my power when I sent over pressed requests to him, 458 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: which allowed him to build out his resume and you 459 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 1: know and say, you know I've spoken to where I 460 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: have been quoted in all these news outlets. I was 461 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: giving up my ability to do the same. I was 462 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: giving up my power when I allowed myself to be 463 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: called founding organizer and UM and being consistently seen as 464 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: a number two and someone who doesn't you know, necessarily 465 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: know what's going on or or can speak for the organization. 466 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: So I made an executive decision over my own life. 467 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: I promoted myself to co founder and the first opportunity 468 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: I had to do that was about two months later. 469 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: It was actually this exactly this time last year when 470 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: I UM. I was preparing for presentation for a talk 471 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: in Scotland, and just a few days before I was 472 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: looking for a fresh example of tech platforms being irresponsible 473 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: and I went to the ku Klux Plans website and 474 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: found PayPal, a PayPal which it on their site. And 475 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: my brain is so broken that I don't know what 476 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: a big deal is anymore. I just tweeted it out 477 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: like I tweet a million other things, and I moved on, 478 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: you know, and UM. A couple of days later, just 479 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: right after I gave that big talk where someone had 480 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: changed my title bless them, from from co founder, from 481 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: founding organizer to co founder without my knowledge. But you 482 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: know again, bless them. So a couple of days after that, 483 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: PayPal banned the KKK from their services. At the BBC 484 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: called me asking for a quote, and I told them 485 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: that I was co founder of Sleeping Giants. UM. The 486 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: day after that, I got a profile out in an 487 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: ad industry magazine called The Drum. It turns out that 488 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: the reporter that I spoke to, the first reporter I 489 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: spoke to after the conference, was doing a profile on me, 490 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: And so I had this all of a sudden, I 491 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: had this profile on me calling calling me the co 492 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: founder of Sleeping Giants, and they had, you know, they 493 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: had It was like a full piece on what I 494 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: think of the ad industry and how things are going. Wow, 495 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: what did that feel like for you? It felt like 496 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: I had just come into my power, Like I had 497 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: just stepped into my power I was actually um. I 498 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: was with my friend Claire, who is now my business partner, 499 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: and we just looked at each other. I mean, she 500 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: knew that I had been going through a lot, and 501 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: we just looked at each other and we were like, Wow, 502 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: everything is turning around. Look how quickly things turn around 503 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: when you claim what's yours. Fuck yeah, I'm like, I'm 504 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: like on the verge of tears listening to this. I 505 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: think your story is your story, is my story. Your 506 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: story is the story of so many women of color 507 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: out there. I think that we are often told that 508 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: there is virtue in just keep your head down and 509 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: do your work and be behind the scenes. There's a 510 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: virtue in making yourself small and not claiming that power. 511 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: And then when you when you when you ride in 512 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: that lane of making yourself small, of not walking in 513 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: your power, and then you finally say I'm done with this. 514 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: Today is the day that I that I that I 515 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: abandoned that and I walk in my power. The feeling 516 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: like it is, it is like nothing else, and it 517 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: comes from inside right. And I think that we are 518 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: sold this lie that the path of just keep grinding, 519 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: keep your head down, and you'll get your you'll get 520 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,479 Speaker 1: your reward, you'll get your credit someday. Maybe it just 521 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: really doesn't. It doesn't serve us, No, it doesn't. I 522 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: I spent. I can't imagine what I could have accomplished 523 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: if you know what I could have accomplished even sooner, 524 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: if I hadn't you know, if I had chosen to 525 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: step into that power before. What what I did instead? 526 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: Because after after that can incident, I was I was 527 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: I was going to leave. I mean, I deeply considered 528 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: leaving Sleeping Giants because I wasn't getting the respect I 529 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: was asking for. Because I was going to I'm always 530 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: gonna get was the crumbs in the relationship, in the 531 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: way that it stood at that point in time. What 532 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: I did instead was I decided to stay, and I 533 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: decided that I would change the rules. I wasn't going 534 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: to play by the rules that were made for me. 535 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: I guess the moment that I stopped playing by the rules, 536 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: and when I started to uh to speak to the press, 537 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: to start writing under my own name, which is something 538 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: that I hadn't been doing, people started to see. First 539 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: of all, people just started to see me. I just 540 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: became more visible, and that put me in a position 541 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: where people wanted to reach out to me because they 542 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to me about my thoughts. And that 543 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: allowed me to start connecting with people in the industry. 544 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: And that's what helped me to meet the people who 545 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: would become my allies, the people who would make introductions 546 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: for me in the industry, um, you know, the people 547 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: who would become my future business partners. And it was 548 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: a slow moving situation. UM. None of it happened overnight. 549 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: But really that investment in building relationships UM and building 550 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: my knowledge was what helped me get to the point 551 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: where I could just come out and say, I am 552 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: co founder, and uh, this is who I am. You 553 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: talked earlier about your allies. You have this great line 554 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: on your medium piece that I love you say. It 555 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 1: cost nothing to make space for me, It cost nothing 556 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: to see see me in. It cost nothing to empower 557 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: other people to achieve their goals. And I think you 558 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: just really hit the nail on the head. All the 559 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: people in my life moved been my allies and my 560 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: co conspirators. They are the ones who are down to 561 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: send the email down, to write a reference, down, to 562 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: connect me with an opportunity. Because it doesn't cost them anything, 563 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: and I really think we need to reject this mindset 564 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: that tells us that we have to be stingy when 565 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: it comes to resources or putting somebody else on, because 566 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: what's better is if we lift others up as we 567 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: climb him, and all of our work is better when 568 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: we empower each other. There's truly enough room for all 569 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 1: of us. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean there were so many 570 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 1: times where I I mean, I mean, I I learned 571 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: so much in the past year, and many times I 572 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: offered to get on calls with you know, with my 573 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: partner and brief him on what I had learned, and 574 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to make it work, and to the point 575 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,439 Speaker 1: that I was willing to continue working with someone who 576 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: was fairly toxic towards me in the way that he 577 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: spoke to me at times. But I wanted to make 578 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: it work because the movement that we have here, the 579 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: movement that we have built, is more important than either 580 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: one of our egos. Do you ever feel that, you know, 581 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: I don't really even know how to put this. Like, 582 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: in work that involves tech and the internet, we have 583 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: this myth that there's this one genius is usually a 584 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: white dude, but it's usually this like one genius who 585 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: does everything. Like we love the idea that there's you know, 586 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: one lone wolf who is doing this really cool work, 587 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: and that really denies what we know is the truth 588 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: that so much of this work is collaborative, So much 589 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: of it is, you know, people working together. Do you 590 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 1: think that's a like like a problem in the tech 591 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: space and in the sort of ad space in general. 592 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I could see the press was 593 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: dying to find their lone wolf hero for this sleeping 594 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: giant story. Like I just don't think they knew what 595 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: to do with a woman like in the story, which 596 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: made no sense to me because in the New York 597 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: Times article, in our big coming out article, we were 598 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: equally waited visually, you know, the pictures were the same size. 599 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 1: Why did no one ask about me? Like where did 600 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: the girl go? Where is she at? What does she 601 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: think about the issues? I mean, it is a campaign 602 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: against bigotry and sexism. Where is the brown girl? So yeah, 603 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: I think the industry as well as the media is 604 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: looking for their um, for their white man savior, which 605 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: is a problem. But I believe that I believe that, 606 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: I um, I mean, I've I've taken those lessons to heart, 607 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: and I I see how these stories are built now, 608 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,760 Speaker 1: and I am dead set on never letting that happen again, 609 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: at least in in my life and in my in 610 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: my work, UM and the people whose lives that I touch. 611 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: UM with the company that Claire and I ended up starting, 612 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: after a year of working together, researching things together, interviewing 613 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: people to together, we launched this company as co founders, 614 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: as equal partners. There was never any question about it. 615 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: And I have name dropped her in well, I guess 616 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: in our relationship now as we started, as we started 617 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 1: this company, I'm sort of the more well known person 618 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: and I that sort of gives me, that sort of 619 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: puts me in a place of privilege in our relationship. 620 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: And so I use that to name drop her in 621 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: everything that I do. And when I see an opportunity 622 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: where I think, you know, an opportunity comes to me 623 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 1: that I think she's better suited for UM, I send 624 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: it over to her and she does the same for me. 625 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick rape and we're back alongside our 626 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: partner Claire atkin Nandini now runs check my Ads, an 627 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: organization that helps brands keep their ad money away from 628 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: fake news, disinformation, and hate speech, and as much behind 629 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: the scene success as she had getting brands to pull 630 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,320 Speaker 1: their ad dollars away from inflammatory sites with sleeping giants, 631 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: their work created another kind of problem. Brands, concerned about 632 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: ending up and sleeping giants as crosshairs and weary of 633 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: being associated with anything negative, started using keyword blocking software 634 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: to make sure their ads weren't running on controversial topics. 635 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: Now Wired reports that these ad blockers actually end up 636 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: blocking terms in kind of haphazard ways. The magazine publisher 637 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: Hearst complained that articles about Megan Markle, the Duchess of Sussex, 638 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: spelled s U s s e X. We're being blocked 639 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: because the word sex appeared on blocklists. What's worse, terms 640 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: like lesbian and bisexual We're blocked for being controversial. Some 641 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: blocklists also blocked ad placements on news articles from reputable 642 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: sites about coronavirus information, and some brands were blocking their 643 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: ads from new sites in general, creating less ad money 644 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: for an already struggling news industry. Her new company, check 645 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: my Ads aims to tackle the issues her workless Sleeping 646 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: Giants might have inadvertently contributed to. So I want to 647 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: talk about check my ads. I was just reading the 648 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: Wired piece about check my ads. So in a kind 649 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: of way, and forgive me if I bungle this, and 650 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: feel free to correct me. I'm no ad tech person, 651 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: but I gotta handle on it. So in a kind 652 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: of way, sleeping giants as as many you know, successes 653 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: as y'all had, in a kind of way, it kind 654 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,399 Speaker 1: of made the media landscape a bit worse because some 655 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: brands were then like, oh well, if I'm gonna get 656 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: dinged for having my ad next to, you know, a 657 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: hate site, I'm just gonna have my ads pulled from 658 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: anything that could be possibly can you know, read as controversial, 659 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 1: even things like covid, you know, and so it really 660 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: kind of created a problem for how add hours were 661 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: spent in the media landscape more generally, is that is 662 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: that sort of correct? That's a huercent correct. What I 663 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: never anticipated working on this campaign, when you know, when 664 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: we when we started tweeting at companies, we were very 665 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: clear that we think that they should look at their 666 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: ad placement on breite bart because it is um you know, 667 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,439 Speaker 1: we used very specific descriptors like homophobic, xenophobic, racist, white 668 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: nationalist UM. What we did not realize or anticipate was 669 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: that the way that that work would be interpreted in 670 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: the boardroom would be, Oh, these guys are just going 671 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: after UM content they don't agree with and content that 672 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: is like so called controversial because the boardrooms are filled 673 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: with mostly white people, the A, the ad industry is 674 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: mostly white guys, and the and the tech industry at 675 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,879 Speaker 1: the attack industry are mostly white people, so they don't 676 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: feel comfortable having conversations about racism or even using that word. 677 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: So they literally just wopped out racist with the word 678 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: controversial or offensive or even yikes yikes moments, not yikes, 679 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: not yetikes it's called hate. Oh oh that really that 680 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: they will do some like I love the like upemisms 681 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: for not having to use the word racist. It's a 682 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: yikes moment. So check my ads is UM. We started 683 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: it as a brand safety consultancy. Two A help companies 684 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: check their ads to understand where their ads are going, 685 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: to help them identify UM, hate speech and disinformation in 686 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: their media by and we also, on the other hand, 687 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: help them to become more intentional about what they want 688 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: to support, because that's sort of what brands are looking 689 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: at these days, there's so many um there's so many 690 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:15,400 Speaker 1: reasons that our existing channels are are toxic or brand 691 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: unsafe or causing trouble in society that brands and marketers 692 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: are really starting to explore ways to be um, be 693 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: smarter and and and and spend their money in a 694 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: way that's more aligned with their with their values. So 695 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: we're helping brands to define their own rules and define 696 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: what where the line is when it comes to their 697 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:46,280 Speaker 1: media by so that really helps them to start thinking 698 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,359 Speaker 1: about what they want to support in a way that 699 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: doesn't feel political. We want them to be able to 700 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: have that conversation through a shared language where they but 701 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 1: they're able to sit on and say we shouldn't be 702 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: advertising on a website like this because it's not aligned 703 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: with you know, this value or um you know or 704 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: this campaign that we have in place, and to do 705 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,879 Speaker 1: so in a way that doesn't make people feel uncomfortable. 706 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: So we want people to to We want to be 707 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: able to facilitate those conversations within a company so they 708 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,479 Speaker 1: can make those decisions ahead of time instead of having 709 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: to respond to them. You know, when it turns into 710 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: a massive issue on social media, Nandini is fully a 711 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: leader in her industry. Her innovative work helps shift culture 712 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: and build paths for accountability online that anyone with a 713 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: Twitter account can participate in. And now she's building on 714 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: what she's learned to refine the way she makes change. 715 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: None of this would be possible if she had just 716 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 1: kept her head down, made herself small, and followed somebody 717 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 1: else's plan for her life. After she published her medium, 718 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: Peace in a tweet, Not apologized and acknowledged Nandini as 719 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: a rightful co founder of Sleeping Giants, and now she 720 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: wants to make sure that other women know there's nothing 721 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: wrong with one in credit for your work? What would 722 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 1: you say to a woman out there that's listening that 723 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,240 Speaker 1: you know is keeping your head down, She's doing the grind. 724 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: She's afraid to step into her power. As you put it, 725 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: You know she she wants credit, she wants that title, 726 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 1: but she doesn't know where to start, and she's afraid 727 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: to even to even start that journey. What would you 728 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 1: say to someone like that? I would say that she 729 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: can start building our own power today by writing I 730 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: was able to start building my power when I had 731 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: nothing and nobody simply by writing a little bit on 732 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: LinkedIn every day, just a little bit about current events, 733 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: about how I feel about something that happened, my opinion, 734 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: my perspective. No one asked, and for a long time, 735 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: no one cares. But when you do it every day, 736 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: you demonstrate at your knowledge and your insight, You represent 737 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: what you're capable of. You show people how you think 738 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: and how you approach problems, and people do start to 739 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: pay attention. You do start to build out the people 740 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: who care, the people who want to engage with you 741 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: and uh and from there you grow out the you 742 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: can start building out the relationships that you need to 743 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: either you know, find your next place, a less toxic place, 744 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,879 Speaker 1: a place where you can be more powerful and um 745 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 1: and at the very least too to build your personal influence. 746 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: That was something that really helped me, was just positioning 747 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 1: myself as a thought leader, even if it was to 748 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: no one but me. Right exactly, You just you get 749 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,719 Speaker 1: used to saying I That was something that I never 750 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: did because I thought, who cares? Like, who cares what 751 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: I think? Right? I don't even care what I think? 752 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,760 Speaker 1: That was That was the attitude I had about myself. 753 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: So just the simple act of saying I this is 754 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: what I think was quite radical for me, because what 755 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: you think matters, so what you write matters too. Got 756 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just 757 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: want to say hi? You can reach us at Hello 758 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: at tang godi dot com. You can also find transcripts 759 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No 760 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me, bridget Toad. 761 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan 762 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer 763 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm 764 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: your host, bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow, 765 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,880 Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts 766 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,919 Speaker 1: from I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, 767 00:47:47,960 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts well