1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Did you say you were unemployed for a little bit. Yes, 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: I quit the job where I would call around to 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: medical offices. I just hated it so much. I just 4 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: couldn't send it anymore. Yeah, like I didn't have a plan. 5 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: I just said goodbye and no two week notice, just goodbye. 6 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: I'm not proud of that, but actually I'm kind of 7 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: proud of that. Um. Hello, and welcome back to Bloomberg Benchmark, 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: a podcast about the global economy. It's Thursday, May second. 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: I'm Ako Bloomberg, joining from San Francisco. Tori today is 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: on our way to Korea in China right now to 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: chase after Treasury Secretary Jack lou and Dan is on vacation. 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: But I'm joined by a very special co host, Slea 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: Molson who's joining us from d C. Hey, Selea, Hi hockey. Hey. 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: So our longtime loyal listeners might remember you, Selea from 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: an episode we did back a few months ago about 16 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: how Norway is just this incredible place for women, how 17 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: it's gone further than any other country in the world 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: when it comes to gender equality, and back when we 19 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: recorded that show, you were living in Oslo. You are 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: our economics correspondent there. Since then, you've decided to leave 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: that perfect utopia and come back to the States to 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: be our Treasury Department reporter. Celeia. How's it been back 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: in the States so far? It's been really great, Ockey, 24 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: It's nice to be back home. Although I do have 25 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: to say that the US has changed a lot in 26 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: the eight years that I was away. Today's topic is 27 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: something that was unheard of back in two thousand eight. Oh, awesome. 28 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: Do you think it's changed for the better for the worst. 29 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: I think we'll know the answer to that at the 30 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: end of this year. Awesome, we'll welcome back today we're 31 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about a whole new way of working, 32 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: not just in the US, but across the world, in 33 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: what's known as the gig economy. So, you know, you 34 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: might be a driver for Uber, you might tutor on 35 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: task Rabbit, maybe you'll be a web developer on up work, 36 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: And basically the Internet has just made it so much 37 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: easier to connect employers with contractors um without kind of 38 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: this forty hours a week, going to the office every day, 39 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: slowly build up your four one K thing that solea 40 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: you and I do kind of the vestige of the 41 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: old economy. Yeah, and I've got some stats for you. 42 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: But the first thing to point out is that there's 43 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: really no established metrics to count independent workers. So the 44 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: size of the gig economy and its impact is actually 45 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: hard to measure. There's not a lot of data on 46 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: things such as how people combine jobs in the gig 47 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: economy with traditional ones, or even how they view their 48 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: own participation in things like task Rabbit and Uber. So 49 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: do they see it as a hobby, is a full 50 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: time or just an extra source of income before they 51 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: go on vacation or before Christmas. So with that in mind, 52 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: I've got some wildly different figures to throw at you. 53 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: So calculations from data from Uber show that those participating 54 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: in the gig economy make up just zero point four 55 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: percent of the labor force, which is about six hundred 56 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: thousand people. But of course it all depends on how 57 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: you define these workers. So research that was sponsored by 58 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: up Works and Freelancers Union shows that about fifty four 59 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: million Americans have done freelance work in the last year. 60 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: So those are two very different measures of what we're 61 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: talking about, and that that latter number that includes like 62 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: traditional freelancers to right, um, you know, I think with 63 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: all new things, it's really difficult to measure. Uh, this 64 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: is a brave new world. I think both its benefits 65 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: and its drawbacks are really interesting. Here, so we decided 66 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: to invite a freelancer to join us and give us 67 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: a peek into his everyday life. Danny Margalis is joining 68 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: us here in our San Francisco studio. Danny, how's it 69 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: going good? Thanks, It's great to be here. Danny tell 70 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: us what you do? So? I am a freelancer. I 71 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: started out on up work uh in two thousand and twelve. 72 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: I had never heard a freelancer before. H it seemed 73 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: like a cool thing to do, and uh, so I 74 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: just started applying to some jobs and then I ended 75 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: up building a career out of this. So today I'm 76 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: a freelance copywriter, and I've also started my own website 77 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: and my own business, so I'm a client as well. Now, 78 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: Danny tell us what up work is for our listeners 79 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: who have never heard it before. Yeah, up work is 80 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: a platform where a freelancer, you know, whether you're a 81 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: new freelancer or season freelancer, you can log in, create 82 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: an account for free, and you can go ahead and 83 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: connect with clients so it's almost like you know, if 84 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: you think of like Craigslist meets eBay or something like 85 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: that for lack of a better analogy. Um, you know, 86 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: you see these jobs, they're posted and a client might say, Hey, 87 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: I want somebody to rewrite my homepage, or I need 88 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: somebody to write five emails that we're going to send 89 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: out to customers, or I need someone to design a logo. 90 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: And you can apply to that job in a very 91 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: quick fashion without a lot of at tape. So here 92 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: are some of your clients. So my clients are primarily 93 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: um business people, business people, entrepreneurs, uh, some people with 94 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: small businesses, growing businesses. Just about of my clients have 95 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: been some kind of business or entrepreneur. Awesome, and you 96 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: just write anything that they need to be written. Yeah. 97 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: I try and keep it pretty general to where if 98 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: if a business needs something written, whether it be a 99 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: brochure or something for their website, or in certain cases 100 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: it could be a slogan, or in some cases they 101 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: might want help with some kind of marketing strategy. I've 102 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: built up those skills as well, so I can help 103 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: with that too. So before you got started in this, 104 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: you know new economy, so to speak. What were you 105 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 1: doing before that? Before that, I had the worst job 106 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: on earth. I would go to an office every day 107 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 1: and I would pick up the phone and I would 108 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: call around to medical facilities and I would request medical 109 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: records for uh, someone who'd applied for life insurance. Uh. 110 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: It was extremely boring. It did not pay particularly well. Yeah, 111 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: And I had a few kind of uh, non career 112 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: kind of jobs before that and the years before that, 113 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: I was a telephone interviewer at the Gallup Organization. Again 114 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: kind of my numbing work. Great company, but my numbing work, nonetheless. 115 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: And I worked at a car dealership for like eight months. 116 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, so just a bunch of kind of 117 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: non career jobs before that. Really didn't have much of 118 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: a career path. And up Upward kind of helped me 119 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: focus that. So before two thousand twelve, you are kind 120 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: of in these traditional jobs. And then in two thousand twelve, 121 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: did you say you were unemployed for a little bit. Yes, 122 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: I quit the job where I would call around to 123 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: medical offices. I just hated it so much I just 124 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: couldn't send it anymore. Yeah, Like I didn't have a plan. 125 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: I just said goodbye and no two week notice. Just 126 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: goodbye and not proud of that. But actually I'm kind 127 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: of proud of that. Um. And I went home and 128 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: I just, you know, I said to myself, like, there's 129 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: gotta be something else out there. I took my laptop, 130 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: I pointed it away from my wife, and I googled 131 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: how to make money writing because I knew she was 132 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: going to think that I was crazy because I had 133 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: never written anything before. And then you know, I found 134 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: up work and one thing led to another. Cool. So 135 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: where do you you know, where do you usually work from? You? 136 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: When you came into our San Francisco studio today, you 137 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: saw our office here, you know, or open, open desk layout, 138 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: you walk through our snack pantry. Um, where do you 139 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: usually work from? I usually work from a home office. 140 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: So when I first started, my wife and I had 141 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: just a two bedroom apartment and I would work in 142 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: like a corner of the corner of our dining room. 143 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: And then that was fine when I first started, and 144 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: then once it became obvious that this was going to 145 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: be a really viable income source, we just decided to 146 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: move to bigger place. Now I have a home office 147 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: that I work out of. Awesome, And what's a typical 148 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: day look like for you. So I wake up, um, 149 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, check my email. Usually get a lot of 150 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: emails these days from freelancers or hiring freelancers who have 151 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: questions and they're trying to you know, look for tips 152 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: on how to get started. Um. And then you know, 153 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: of course, uh, when I'm working with clients these days, 154 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: I don't work with clients as much as I did 155 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: several years ago, but I still do. So I'll check 156 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: all my emails, check all my messages, um. You know, 157 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: usually just sort of plan my day out pretty quickly. 158 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: You know, if you're writing for a living, it's not 159 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: something that you can do for like eight or ten 160 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: or twelve hours a day. So I need to do 161 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: that in the morning. Um, you know, while my creative 162 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: energy is kind of at its peak, and you know 163 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: that's when you're billing. Yeah, yeah, doing billable work. I'll 164 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: always do billable work in the morning, especially because you know, 165 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: I believe in giving clients my best time. And then 166 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: once that's done, then I'll go ahead and move to 167 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: my blog, um, or my online course, you know, customer 168 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: service emails. You know, I kind of wear a lot 169 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: of different hats. But yeah, I'll usually spend um, you know, 170 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: anywhere from two to four hours doing work with clients 171 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: if I'm doing work with clients in that period, and 172 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: then I'll move to my blog after of that, so 173 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, try and keep things mixed up and fresh. 174 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: Can you give us a sense of how much you earn, 175 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: either how much you charge per hour or on a 176 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: monthly or annual basis? Sure? Absolutely so. My first year 177 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: on upwork, I earned about fifty thou dollars in my 178 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: first full year, so that would be UM two thousand thirteen. 179 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: And then in two thousand fourteen, just from my upwork earnings, 180 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,239 Speaker 1: I managed to earn just about a hundred and fifteen 181 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: thousand dollars in revenue. And then I added another income 182 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: source at that point, which is my online business. So 183 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: I have a course and a blog, so that takes 184 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: up some of my time there, and that business in 185 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: the past twelve months has has brought in uh, just 186 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: just about a quarter million dollars in revenue. And I 187 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: feel like I would not have had that opportunity without 188 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: upwork because I was learning all the skills I use 189 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: in my business I learned as a freelancer. So it's 190 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: really been this kind of you know, awesome kind of progression. 191 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: That's great. And you I think you said that you 192 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: were billing around a hundred fifty dollars an hour, Is 193 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: that right? Yeah? So I actually just took I just 194 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: took on a new client at actually two fifty an hour, yeah, 195 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: which is to me just yeah, it's awesome. But um, 196 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: for the just about the entire two thousand fourteen and 197 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen period, every client I build was around 198 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: the hut an hour range. Amazing. Well, Danny, clearly you've 199 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: got a great thing going here. We're going to take 200 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: a short break and then we're going to launch into 201 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: kind of the pros and the cons of this kind 202 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: of freelancing work for both you and the broader labor market. 203 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: Sounds great. Can't wait. So, Danny, you are clearly doing 204 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: something that you are good at, that you enjoy, and 205 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: from what I have heard, you also teach people how 206 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: to be successful as freelancers. But I have to ask 207 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: if a company came to you and said, we will 208 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: give you as much as you're earning now come work 209 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: for us, would you go for a more traditional full 210 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: time job. That's a great question. I want to point 211 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: out that that has happened several times. So I've worked 212 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: with well over eighty clients throughout my kind of quote 213 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: unquote online freelancing career, and many of them have come 214 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: to me, especially as they've grown, They've come to me 215 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: and said, hey, would you consider working for us full time? Um, 216 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: you know, will compensate you relative to what you're earning 217 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: now and etcetera, etcetera. And I've had to turn them 218 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: down every time. And the main reason why, I mean, 219 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons. Number One, I'm really enjoying it. 220 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: Get to work with a diverse you know, diverse clientele, 221 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: different businesses, keeps you really fresh. Um. You know, one 222 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: day I might be writing about a consumer product. The 223 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: next day I might be helping someone with strategy on 224 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: a business to business product or service. So that's one thing. 225 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: The other thing is the security. So when most people 226 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: think of freelancing, they think of something not secure, right, 227 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: because you don't have a job and you don't go 228 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: to an office every day. It kind of maybe doesn't 229 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: feel secure or look secure to the untrained eye, But 230 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: once you get into it, it's actually more secure. Because 231 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: if I'm working with ten clients, which is not unheard 232 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: of or unrealistic, and one of them goes out of 233 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: business or even fires me, or you know, outgrows me 234 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: or what have you. That's only a ten percent income 235 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: hit that I take that day, and ninety of my 236 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: income remains intact. And not only that, but it's actually 237 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: relatively easy thanks to sides like upwork, fire up my 238 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: laptop and go and find a new client. I could 239 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: replace them in a matter of days or you know, 240 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: maybe a week or so. Versus if you lose your 241 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: job at a traditional job, I lose if Bloomberg decides 242 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: to fire um, Yeah, and then it's a percent of 243 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: my income in that in that case would be gone. 244 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: And it's it could be really hard to find a 245 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 1: new job, especially if someone earning a significant amount of money. 246 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: That could be a week's or months or even longer 247 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: job search. So I feel like, to me, it's a 248 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: no brainer to continue freelancing. Yeah. And and Danny, you 249 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: have two kids, is that right? Yeah? I have a 250 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: six year old boy and a three year old boy. Yeah, 251 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: it sounds like a handful, Yeah, it is, so, I 252 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: bet it's it's a good thing that you get to 253 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: kind of structure your own work day too. Have this flexibility. 254 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: It's amazing, yeah, because there's never a time, you know, 255 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: like if you know with kids, things are always changing 256 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: and there's always some activity to go to. And there's 257 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: never a time when I have to say, or I 258 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: would say very rarely a time when I would have 259 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: to say, sorry, I can't be there to go to 260 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: a soccer game, or uh, you know, sorry, I have 261 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: to work all day Saturday. We can't hang out. It 262 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: does happen, uh, you know, just like anything else. Things 263 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: come up in freelancing, but for the most part, I'm 264 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: able to. It helps me be a great dad. Yeah. 265 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: And connecting this to the broader labor market, one of 266 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: the things that's really amazing to me is that you 267 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: don't have to be in the same location as your employers. 268 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: So for example, San Francisco, here the tech boom is 269 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: generating tons and tons of jobs, but you're not seeing 270 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: that in most other cities, let's say, like Detroit. But 271 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people can't just pack up their whole 272 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: house and drive across the country and find a new 273 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: place to live and find a new school for their kids, 274 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: especially in as expensive of a place like the bayerry here, 275 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: So they end up, you know, they stay unemployed for 276 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: a while because they can't find any local jobs. And 277 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: in the meantime, these companies that do need workers, their 278 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: openings go unfilled. No one wins. Yeah, but when there's 279 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: work that you can do remotely, companies all of a 280 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: sudden aren't restricted by location, so they can find the 281 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: best workers for the job. And I have to say 282 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: that that's probably more productive for an economy, right, And 283 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think that's why your story, Danny, is 284 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: so amazing. You know, you were unemployed back in two 285 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: thousand twelve. You could have just stayed there, you know, 286 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: but instead you went on the internet, and now you 287 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: have clients across the country, maybe even across the world. Yeah. 288 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: I have clients on six continents, and uh many of 289 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: my clients are actually from the Bay Area, including one 290 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: very well known VC funded education company. Um, you know. 291 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: And so so they're they're looking around too, you know, 292 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: and they, like you said, they don't want to be 293 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: restricted by location. They just want someone who's a good fit, 294 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: and a site like up work really allows them to, 295 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, just very quickly get exposed to a lot 296 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: of different talent an you might have convinced some of 297 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: our listeners to quit their full time jobs and become 298 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: their own bosses. But I have to ask, do you 299 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: have any warnings or words of wisdom about the potential 300 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: pitfalls of this kind of on demand work? Sure? Yeah, 301 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: I mean just like anything else, Um, you know, there's 302 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: there's uh, there's pros and cons to everything, and the 303 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: to me, the good and the bad in uh this 304 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: online freelancing world. If you're a freelancer or an aspiring freelancer, 305 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: the good in the bad or kind of mixed together. 306 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: So for example, uh, there's not a lot of structure. 307 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: So that's great because you can be a great dad 308 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: or enjoy your free time. Some people travel while they're working. 309 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: But it's also kind of one of the challenges as 310 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: well is that there's no structure, so you have to 311 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: learn how to create some structure, because nobody can work 312 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: without structure. Another thing is you're the boss. So when 313 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: you go to work, generally you know, as an employee, 314 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: you're generally unemployed, and you can run things by somebody 315 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: and get help and get all kinds of feedback. You 316 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: can do that from your clients. As a freelancer. I 317 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: can go to my client and say, hey, I have 318 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: this idea and you know, I want to run it 319 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: by you get some quick feedback on it, and that's 320 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: a great way to work. But there's usually often nobody 321 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: giving you direct orders. You know, you have to take 322 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: a leadership role because you're your own boss. So you know, 323 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: you don't have co workers either, exactly, and I mean 324 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: and in some cases a client will hire me and 325 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: they'll hire other freelancers and will work a bit as 326 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: a team. But you really just have to get good 327 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: at understanding it. You are the boss and the employee, 328 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: and the client is the customer. The client is not 329 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: the boss. It's not the person you can go to 330 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: and say, give me my marching orders. In some cases 331 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: it might work that way, but you always have to 332 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: be prepared to take the reins, take a leadership role, 333 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: be an expert, and say to the client, here's what 334 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: I recommend, which is often a one eighty from you know, 335 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: some of us coming from the corporate world, what we're 336 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: used to write. And you have to pay for your 337 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: own healthcare rate out of pocket? Yeah I I and 338 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: yeah exactly, and I do fortunately, uh, you know, thanks 339 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: to upwork. I've really we've been you know, I've been 340 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: able to find so many clients where my income is 341 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: healthy and so I'm able to purchase my own health insurance. 342 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: And I urge people who are listening to this, who 343 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: may be considering freelancing, think about how much you're charging. 344 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: You know, you might make twenty an hour at work, 345 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: but you want to aim for at least twice that 346 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: as a freelancer. It doesn't have to be on your 347 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: first day, but you want to. You want to be 348 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: able to say okay, as a freelancer, I have to 349 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: charge at least two times and in many cases more 350 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: to be able to cover all your expenses. That's something 351 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: people should keep in mind. But what are you doing 352 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: for retirement? I mean at Bloomberg Hockey and I get 353 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: matched for a one k, right, so um, Fortunately, there 354 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: are great options for retirement accounts for self employed individuals, 355 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: and you know, if you especially for people over a 356 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: certain income threshold, there's opportunities to put very large sums 357 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: of money into four oh one k. But you're a percent, right, 358 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: I mean, nobody's going to match my four oh one 359 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: k because there's nobody to match it, right, and generally 360 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: when you're classified as a contractor and not an employee, 361 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: you're not entitled to all kinds of things. You know, healthcare, retirement, 362 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: that's like some of the benefits. But you know, you're 363 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: also not entitled to like overtime pay, you're not guaranteed 364 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: a minimum wage, you don't get unemployment benefits, meal breaks, 365 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Um so Uber just in April 366 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: settled a pair of class action lawsuits um and the 367 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: company is going to end up paying as much as 368 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars. But it was kind of a 369 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: victory for them because they're going to be able to 370 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: retain the right to continue classifying its drivers as contractors 371 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: and not employees, So that means they're going to be 372 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: able to continue to keep costs pretty low. So Tori, 373 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: who is our co host, who is now on her 374 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: way to South Korea, she wrote a great story about 375 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: how the gig economy is growing, the chasm between winners 376 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: and losers. Yeah, and she spoke to Larry Katz, who's 377 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: probably one of the best known labor economists in the 378 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: world who's been doing some research in this topic. So, Leah, 379 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: what did h what did Larry cats tell Tori. So, 380 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: Larry is an economics professor at Harvard, and he teamed 381 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: up with Princeton University's Alan krueger Um. What Larry pointed 382 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: out was that there used to be more integration at 383 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: companies like General Motors and Old banks, and they not 384 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: only gave good pay to their managers and engineers and 385 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: skilled workers, but they also paid a premium to other 386 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: support staff like janitors and clerical workers who were just 387 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: as important. But now those jobs are actually being outsourced 388 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: to temporary agencies that don't offer employment benefits for decent wages. 389 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: So all of this has contributed to the widening inequality, 390 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: which you could say is feeling vote voter anxiety and 391 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: an already pretty wild election year. Yeah, and so basically, 392 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: like people like you, Danny, You're fine, you know, probably 393 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: doing even better than you would otherwise because you know 394 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: your skills as a copywriter are very much in high demand. 395 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: But you really do hear these horror stories of people 396 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: working for a lot less than you do in these 397 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: unskilled jobs. For example, these uber drivers getting their rates 398 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: cut more and more. I was gonna say, this is 399 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 1: one thing I love about a sitelite up work is 400 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: they're not restricting you to charging a certain amount. So 401 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: if your costs are a certain amount, your cost of 402 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: living is a certain amount. If you have an in 403 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: demand skill. You know, And what I always encourage people 404 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 1: to do is we you know, I always say we. 405 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: We can't control the market right as an individual, I 406 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: can't roll labor trends that are bigger than any one 407 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: of us, bigger than even a company like this. What 408 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: we can control is, hey, what's in demand right now? 409 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: Can I learn it? Sites like you to me. There's 410 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: all kinds of education, sites like you to me, even 411 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: on YouTube, um, even on blogs. In many cases, you 412 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: can go and learn skills. If you take the skill 413 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: of copyrighting. A janitor can learn that skill. That's one 414 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: of the things I love about it. Anyone can learn 415 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: this skill, and it doesn't have to take very long. 416 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: It took me two days to break in because we've 417 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: all been writing since we were in grade school. Again, 418 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: the good is mixed with the bad. You know, everything 419 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: you're saying about the trends and displacing people in certain roles, 420 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: that's that's obviously true. The good news is these opportunities 421 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: are open to anyone if they're willing to learn, and 422 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: but you do have to have like a base skill. 423 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean when we first started talking, you were incredibly organized, 424 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: or like one of those organized people I've ever talked to. 425 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: You know, you're clear, you're a good communicator, obviously, have 426 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: good writing skills, and not everyone has those those high 427 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: skills that are very much in demand in today's um 428 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: labor market. I think so that's true. I will urge 429 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: you to keep in mind I'm a college dropout. I 430 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: went to college for two weeks. I went to work 431 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: as a waiter in a restaurant after that. Throughout my thirties, 432 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: I was just it was like between dead end jobs 433 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: and unemployed. I mean, people had me counted out right. 434 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: People would say, oh, Danny, he's that sad story. He 435 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: had a lot of potential, but he never educated himself. 436 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: He didn't do anything. I learned everything that I know 437 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: on the job, on on the freelancing side, because that's 438 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: when you're you know, kind was kind of thrown into 439 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: the deep end. And it was the first time I realized, hey, 440 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: I can control my destiny. I don't have to worry 441 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: about college. I don't have to raise my hand and 442 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: wait to be picked by a publisher. If I want 443 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: to write something, I can just start a blog and 444 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: promote it. So a lot of this was really just 445 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: developed in the last four years. I don't think you 446 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: would have been quite as impressed if you and I 447 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: had met in about two thousand ten. It seems they've 448 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: worked out pretty well for you. But I'm a little 449 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: bit of a cynic, so I have to wonder whether 450 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: these bigger companies that a lot of non traditional workers 451 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: were for, including yourself, they are trying to avoid paying 452 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: workers and sidestepping healthcare and training and office space. I 453 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: wonder if platforms like upworks are actually feeding into this 454 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: and working paying for workers only when they need them. Yeah, 455 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: And it definitely kind of feels like just one more 456 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: stage in this very very long trend of you know, 457 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: risk shifting more and more from companies to workers, from 458 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: you know, the government individuals. And I'm just say the 459 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: backdrop of this whole concept is interesting to policymakers all 460 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: away from the Fed and the White House across the 461 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: country have fought hard to get unemployment down over the 462 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: last ten years. And you can see in election campaigns 463 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: that people want job creation, but they also want jobs 464 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: with flexibility. But what do you make of all this? 465 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: What's our conclusion? Then? Okay, so you know, first of all, 466 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: I think that clearly these you know platforms are providing 467 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: a very valuable service to both employers and workers. Um, 468 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: you know, Danny's case, I think is a really good 469 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: example of someone succeeding when they weren't succeeding in the 470 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: traditional labor market. And these platforms wouldn't be as big 471 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: as they are now if they weren't successful in providing 472 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: that service. At the same time, I am really glad 473 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: that a lot of smart economists are starting to look 474 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: into this because it does feel like a very big 475 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: shift and there can be a lot of unintended consequences 476 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: when you're seeing um, the labor market change so quickly, 477 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: And I really hope that their research feeds into helps 478 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: inform these uh labor regulations that we have set up now, 479 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: because it does feel like the current regulations are set 480 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 1: up for the old economy instead of um, you know, 481 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: for the new economy that we're starting to see now. Well, Danny, 482 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you for 483 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: having me. Is great being here. Thanks again for listening 484 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Benchmark. We're going to be back again next week. 485 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: Until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal 486 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com, also on iTunes, pocket cast, 487 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: at your Google Play and why you're there, Please take 488 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: a minute to rate and review our show so more 489 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: listeners can find us and let us know what you 490 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: thought of the show. You can find us on Twitter 491 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: at aki et seven. 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