1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius, the production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Guess what, Mango? What's that? Well? All right, we know 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: how people like to keep tabs on their old classmates, 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, just you can see what everybody's wound up doing. 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: That is why I joined Facebook. I want to see 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: what people are doing. I want to see how my 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: high school rivals are doing terribly. I hope did you 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: recently joined Facebook like your grandmother. That's pretty great. Actually, 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: I was thinking about that this week while reading up 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: on Third Good Marshal, and it actually made me feel 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: so bad for the Lincoln College class of nineteen thirty, 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: which I know you're I think you're an expert on 13 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: the Lincoln College class of nineteen thirty. I am not, 14 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: but I'm guessing it's because they graduated a future Supreme 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: Court justice. Well, that's the thing. So Lincoln's class of 16 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty was actually home to a slew of prominent 17 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: black leaders. So for literature you had Lengths and Hughes. 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: For music, there was Cab Callaway. Then of course there 19 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: was Marshall himself, who made this colossal name for himself 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: in the legal system and on the political side of things. 21 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: The class had Quamae Nachroma of the future president of Ghana. 22 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: Isn't that unbelievable? I mean, no matter which field the 23 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: other students went into, they were all pretty much guaranteed 24 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: to be outshone by the classmates. But the more I 25 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: poked around Marshall's biography, the more I wanted to know. 26 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: How did he become such a larger than life figure 27 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: in the courtroom, how did he look at the Constitution? 28 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: And did he really take the oath of office from 29 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: an ex clan member? So let's dive in, say their 30 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson 31 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: and as always I'm joined by my good friend man 32 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: Guesh Ticketer and on the other side of the soundproof 33 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: glass watching old Days of Our Lives reruns. This is 34 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: gives him an excuse to do this because I know 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: he likes to do this on the quiet, but in 36 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: honor of third good Marshall, that's our friend and producer 37 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil. I know it's a tribute, but uh I 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: I do feel like Tristin just loves his stories. He does, 39 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,679 Speaker 1: he definitely loves his stories. Well that was my first thought, 40 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: but Tristan was so adamant about only watching episodes from 41 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and eighties that it made me wonder 42 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: if there really was a connection. So we did a 43 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: little bit of digging, of course, and it turns out 44 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: that during his years on the bench, Justice Third Good 45 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: Marshall was actually a big fan of Days of Our 46 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: Lives And I love this, but I mean, like really 47 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: a fan of soap operas in general. And apparently he 48 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: once told Justice Brennan there was quote a lot to 49 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: be learned about life from soap operas, so things like 50 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: how to stop your evil twin from stealing the men 51 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: you love. I imagine at these practical life lessons, and 52 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: Justice Marshall didn't want to miss any of them. In fact, 53 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: Time magazine ran this report this was back in nineteen 54 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 1: seventies six, claiming that Marshall would often call a recess 55 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: right around one pm so that he could watch the 56 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: latest Days of Our Lives episode in his chambers. You know, 57 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 1: I guess they didn't have a way to uh TiVo 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 1: or record things that I just say TiVo. Sometimes he 59 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: would be late to his next meeting because he didn't 60 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: want to miss the end of an episode, I totally said, TiVo. 61 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: So obviously this is a funny thing to point out, because, 62 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, aside from his odd TV habit, which actually 63 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: makes him feel pretty human, like, his legacy is just stunning. Um. 64 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: I mean you think about the pivolal role he had 65 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: in the civil rights movement, his landmark appointment as the 66 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: first black member of the Supreme Court. There's just a 67 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: ton to discuss here. Yeah, there definitely is. All right, Well, 68 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: I'll leave it up to you. Where where do you 69 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: want to start? How about with a bombshell? You know 70 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: how I like to start these things. Apparently third Good 71 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: Marshall's name wasn't actually third Good Marshal when he was 72 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: born in Maryland. This was he was actually given the 73 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: name thorough Good Marshal, like the word thorough good put together. 74 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: But it was such a mouth well and so annoying, 75 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: the spell that Marshall told this reporter. By the time 76 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: I reached the second grade, I got tired of spelling 77 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: all that out and had shortened it to third Good. 78 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: I love that he had decided this by second grade, 79 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: and that's pretty amazing. All right. Well, I actually didn't 80 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: know his name was abbreviated. But but what else did 81 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: you dig up on his childhood? So he was born 82 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: and raised in Baltimore, this is around the turn of 83 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. He had one older brother, this guy, 84 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: William Aubrey Marshall. His mother was a school teacher, and 85 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: his father, William Canfield Marshall, worked as a dining car 86 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: waiter on a railroad and then later as this steward 87 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: at a fancy country club. So the Marshalls weren't exactly wealthy, 88 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: but they felt middle class. And that's kind of amazing 89 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: in itself when you consider that Thurgood's father was actually 90 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: the grandson of a former slave, and this was not 91 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: lost on Thurgood, like the social progress that was made 92 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: in just a generation or two, and of course later 93 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: he'd make it his mission to sort of push progress 94 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: even further. So I'm curious how did Thurgood get interested 95 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: in the law in the first place, because I was 96 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: looking a lot about his early legal career, but there 97 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: really wasn't a lot of insight into what made him 98 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: want to be a lawyer. So from everything I read, 99 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: it was really his father who kind of sparked this passion. 100 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: His dad William was this amateur writer, and he had 101 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: also been interested in legal proceedings and how courts worked. 102 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: And it was such an obsession for him that in 103 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: his free time he liked to go down to the 104 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: local courthouse and listen to the civil and criminal trials. 105 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: And sometimes he'd bring his sons along too. But this 106 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: is the amazing part. Right when they got home, the 107 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: three of them would actually lay out all the arguments 108 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: they'd heard that day and then have these big, lively 109 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: debates around the dinner table. And sometimes these discussions would 110 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: happen five times in a week. So in all this excitement, 111 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: Thur A Good really started to develop this interest in 112 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: law and how do you use words to confront injustice? 113 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: In fact, we actually have their good words on this 114 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: In he talked about his father's influence, saying, quote, he 115 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: did it by teaching me to argue, by challenging my 116 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: logic on every point, by making me prove every statement. 117 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: He never told me to be a lawyer, but he 118 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: turned me into one. You know, my son is big 119 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: into this series by John Grisham called Theodore Boone. Have 120 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: your kids discovered this yet? So like, that's all I 121 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: think about law now? Is like what kids are in 122 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: the in the courtroom, like listening to these cases. But 123 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 1: did you get a sense for like what kinds of 124 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: cases the marshals were scrutinizing when they were at home. 125 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: So Gaye pulled a ton of this for us, and 126 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: and he couldn't track down specific cases, but it is 127 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: easy to imagine that they would have seen a lot 128 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: of cases involving racial discrimination. When third Good was growing 129 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 1: up in Baltimore, the city's death rate for African Americans 130 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: was actually double that of white residence, and because of segregation, 131 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: he and his brother were actually forced to attend this 132 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: all black public school. So he felt all of this 133 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: at this really early age, and what he saw in 134 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: both court and the classroom that really shaped the viewpoints 135 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: he'd ultimately spend his life fighting for all right, So 136 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: it was obviously engaged in a lot of self education, 137 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: a really curious kid and observing all these trials, debating 138 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: law with his dad. But I'm curious, how was he 139 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: in school? Like? Was he was? He a pretty good student? 140 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm in grade wise, he was excellent in high school. 141 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: His grades were above average, and he made a name 142 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: for himself on the debate team, you know, thanks to 143 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: all this practice that he and his dad had had 144 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: at home. But when it came to behavior, third Good 145 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: was actually kind of a troublemaker. Yeah, you might even 146 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: say he no, no, no, do not say they're bad. 147 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: I could tell I knew that's where you were going 148 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, that's probably for the best. But he 149 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: actually misbehaved a lot at school, and whenever you did, 150 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: his teachers would make him read the Constitution as punishment. 151 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. They're Good gotten so much trouble 152 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: that by the time he graduated, which was a year early, 153 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: he had memorized the entire Constitution. Uh, you know, it's 154 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: it's it's funny. They didn't realize how much they were 155 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: contributing to his, you know, excellence in this in this field. 156 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: And listening to you lay all this out, I mean, 157 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: it's pretty amazing how all these different little things in 158 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: his life seemed to be working together to sort of 159 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: nudge him along a certain path. And I mean, I 160 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: know we're looking at all this in hindsight and speaking 161 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: in these broad terms, but his family history, his city, 162 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: his school, his dad's interests of course, and now even 163 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: his punishments contributed to this, but you know, when you 164 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: take it all together, it almost seems inevitable that he 165 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: would become a lawyer and fight for civil rights. Yeah, 166 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: and I guess They're Good, agreed with you, Because after 167 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: graduating college in ninety he immediately applied to the University 168 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: of Maryland law school. And this is actually where one 169 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: of those nudges down the path comes in, because despite 170 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: a glowing high school transcript, the college ultimately rejected They're 171 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: Good because of the color of his skin. But even 172 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: though this is jumping a little bit ahead, I want 173 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: to give you some instant satisfaction by telling you that 174 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: about five years after he applied, They're Good actually helped 175 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 1: launch and win the case that brought an end to 176 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: segregation at the very school that rejected him. It's pretty 177 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: sweet vindication. That's that's pretty great and I can only 178 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: imagine how good it must have felt when that verdict 179 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: came in. And I'm curious that, like, where did Marshall 180 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: wind up studying law? So instead of Maryland, Marshall went 181 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: to law school at Howard University, which is obviously historically black, 182 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: so segregation wasn't an issue, and at the time the 183 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: dean of the law school was this super well respected 184 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: civil rights lawyer named Charles Houston, and on campus, Houston 185 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: had this reputation for being super strict and demanding, but 186 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: Marshall actually responded well to the style of teaching, and 187 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: in fact, the two hit it off so well that 188 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: Houston became a mentor to Marshall, and years later they 189 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: worked closely together in legal division of the a CP. Yeah, 190 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: Marshall's work with the a CP became the cornerstone of 191 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: his career, so I definitely say he chose the right 192 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: mentor in Houston. So when did Marshall first get involved 193 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: with the a CP. Was Was that straight out of 194 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: law school? No? So, Marshall actually passed the bar exam 195 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: and graduated from Howard with honors. But he spent his 196 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: first few post grad years trying to get this private 197 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: practice going in Baltimore. He landed a few small cases 198 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: every now and then, but none of them paid very much, 199 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: and things got so bad that Thirdgood was forced to 200 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: take a second job at an STD clinic just to 201 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: make rent. In fact, if you remember breakthrough case I 202 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, the one where Third Goood got the University 203 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: of Maryland to desegregate. He was working the late shift 204 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: at that clinic the whole time he prepped for the case. 205 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: And even when he moved to New York City in 206 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six to work full time for the ub 207 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: A CP, Third Good was so concerned that things wouldn't 208 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: pan out as a lawyer that he didn't actually quit 209 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: his job at the clinic. He he just requested a 210 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: six month leave of absence. That's how touch and go 211 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: things were for him as a young lawyer. That is 212 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: pretty wild. You mentioned Marshall's mentor was involved with the 213 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: Double A CP. Did did he actually have something to 214 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: do with Marshall getting called up to New York? So, 215 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: Charles Houston had actually resigned as dean in nineteen thirty 216 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: five so that he could become the first legal counsel 217 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: for the Double A CP, and by the time Marshall 218 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: joined on a year later, Houston had already become the 219 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: director of the group's legal division and the two worked 220 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: side by side on civil rights cases for the next 221 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: few years. And then when Houston retired from the role 222 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty, third Good stepped in and he really 223 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: didn't miss a beat. He stayed on as director all 224 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: throughout the forties and the fifties. Yeah, that's probably the 225 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: portion of his career that I feel most familiar with, 226 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, all the landmark cases he tackled, and you know, 227 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: not just as a justice serving on the Supreme Court, 228 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: but as a lawyer arguing in front of the Supreme Court, 229 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: which is perfect because I'll hand you the baton and 230 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: you can walk us through it. But let's take a 231 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: quick break first. You're listening to Part Time Genius and 232 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: we're talking about how third Good Marshall earned his seat 233 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: on the highest court in the country. And I feel 234 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: like you were maybe alluding to this answer just before 235 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: the break. You were saying that it was Marshall's time 236 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: with the double A CP that really won him his acclaim. Yeah, 237 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: it's definitely true. I mean, Marshall served as the group's 238 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: top attorney for a little over two decades, and this 239 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: was when he really made a name for himself because 240 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: during that period he argued a record setting thirty two 241 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: cases before the Supreme Court. And get this, so, out 242 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: of those thirty two civil rights cases, Marshal won twenty 243 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: nine of those, not a bad average at all, even today, 244 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: all these decades later, Marshall is still near the top 245 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: of the list for the number of cases argued and 246 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: one before the Supreme Court. I mean, that's stunning. But 247 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: what were some of his biggest wins. Well, his first 248 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: Supreme Court victory was a pretty big one. So this 249 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: was a ninety case. It's called Chambers versus Florida, and 250 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: it dealt with these four black men who had confessed 251 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: to a murder earlier that year and had been sentenced 252 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: to death for it. However, Marshall was able to show 253 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: that their confessions to the crime had been coerced by 254 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: the police. So the four suspects had been held in 255 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: police custody for a full week, never given access to 256 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: legal counsel, and despite this, the men had been questioned 257 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: individually throughout the week, with as many as ten police 258 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: officers and community members present during these interrogations, but again 259 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: no lawyers were present, and because this was all prior 260 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: to the establishment of Miranda rights, no one told the 261 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: men that they had the right to remain silent during 262 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: these interrogations. So in the end, the court ruled that 263 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: the confessions that had led to a conviction had not 264 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: been given voluntarily, which made them inadmissible, so the death 265 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: sentence ruling was actually overturned. I mean, it is wild 266 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: to think that there was a time when those kinds 267 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: of tactics were actually the norm, you know, holding people 268 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: without charges, denying them counsel, and of course, you know, 269 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: these civil rights violations still happened, but in the era 270 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: we're talking about, it sounds like it was more or 271 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: less acceptable behavior until cases like this were brought to trial. Yeah, 272 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: it would actually be another twenty six years after the 273 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: Chambers case before those tactics would finally be outlawed by 274 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: the court, and that's when police actually had to start 275 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: telling suspects that they had the right to an attorney 276 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: and the right to remain silent and all that. Yep, 277 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: that was the ruling in the Miranda versus Arizona case 278 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty six, which by the way, was also 279 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: a case that Marshall argued, though he was the Solicitor 280 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: General by that point and no longer working for the 281 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: Double A. CP and Marshall had a slew of other 282 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: landmark victories in the years between Chambers and Miranda, but 283 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: the biggest had to be Brown versus the Board of Education, 284 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: the case that brought down school segregation and the whole 285 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: separate but equal doctrine. So there's no question that was 286 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: one of the most important cases of the twentieth century 287 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: and probably the most defining moment of Marshall's whole career. 288 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: And this was in the early fifties, right, Yes, was 289 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, so this was really before the civil 290 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: rights movement had gotten into full swing. It was a 291 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: year before Rosa Parks bus ride, three years before the 292 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: Civil Rights Act of nineteen fifty seven, and so the 293 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: Brown Case was kind of a precursor to all of that, 294 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: And it may have taken a while for the positive 295 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: ruling to be fully enforced, but right from the outset, 296 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: it definitely helped kick off the movement and kind of 297 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: paved the way for more civil rights victories to come. So, 298 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: I know the main takeaways from the Brown case have 299 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: been covered pretty well by now, but could you maybe 300 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: run through the basics just for certainly for me, but 301 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: for anyone else who might have forgotten. Sure. So, basically, 302 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: Marshall was representing a group of black parents whose children 303 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: had been forced to attend all black schools, and this 304 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: was in Topeka, Kansas, you might remember. And of course 305 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: this was a case that was near Marshall's heart because 306 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: this was something he had experienced himself, first in high 307 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: school and then of course again in college. So in 308 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: the end, Marshall argued that separate educational facilities are inherently 309 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: unequal and therefore unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court agreed with 310 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: him unanimously. Actually, So to be clear that positive ruling 311 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: was never guaranteed given the political climate of the era, 312 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: particularly in the South, you know, where Jim Crow laws 313 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: were still very much in effect, but it helped that 314 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: Marshall was so forceful and so clear when exposing the 315 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: hypocrisies of the current laws in court. So, for example, 316 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: there was one point during the Brown arguments when the 317 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: Attorney General of Virginia complained that bringing the case before 318 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: the Court was an assault by the double A C 319 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: P on the quote cherished heritage of segregation. Yeah, and 320 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: it gets even worse when you hear how the Attorney 321 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: General phrased all this. He said that the d A 322 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: CP was trying to quote, pressed this crown of thorns 323 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: upon our brow and hold the hemlock to our lips. 324 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: It's just so bizarre, which I guess is a dual reference, 325 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: likening the fall of segregation to both the crucifixion of 326 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: Christ and the death of Socrates. I'm not, I'm not, 327 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: but just like you said it, it's definitely messy and weird. Yeah, 328 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: and you know you'll actually like Marshall's response to this. 329 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: So he told the court, you have heard references to 330 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: one state's greatest and most cherished heritage, and when you 331 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: look for it, you find that greatest and most cherished 332 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: heritage is to segregate colored people. I mean, it's just 333 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: stuinny to me that they voted unanimously right with him. 334 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: It's crazy. But I I do want to go back 335 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: to something you mentioned a little earlier. You said Marshall 336 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: became the Solicitor General in the sixties, Right, So, Marshall 337 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: actually received a couple of presidential appointments before finally being 338 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: called up to the Supreme Court. He left the end 339 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: of a CP in the early sixties, and this was 340 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: to serve on the U s Court of Appeals, And 341 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: that was after being nominated by President Kennedy. And then 342 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: four years later Kennedy's successor, Linda Johnson, he appointed Marshall 343 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: the first black solicitor general in US history, which is 344 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: obviously important historically, but I feel like I'd appreciate it 345 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: a little bit more if I actually knew what a 346 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: solicitor general did? You know? You don't think about this 347 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: every day. That's fair. Well, so, the solicitor General is, 348 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: as you might expect, a legal post, and it's basically 349 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: the attorney who goes before the Supreme Court to argue 350 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: cases on behalf of the federal government. So a lot 351 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: like what he had done for twenty years with the 352 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: double A CP, but now with the federal government as 353 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: his client, so I get what he does now. Was 354 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: he still sticking to arguing civil rights cases once he 355 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: started working for the government or did that all change? No, 356 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: he definitely was. And it was during this time on 357 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: the Court of Appeals that Marshall issued over one hundred 358 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: decisions on civil rights battles as well as other hot 359 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: button issues like women's rights, police brutality, and amazingly, none 360 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: of these hundred plus decisions were overturned by the Supreme Court, 361 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: and Marshall had a similarly strong record during his two 362 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: years as Solicitor General too. So he argued nineteen cases 363 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court during that stint, and one fourteen 364 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: of those. That is really impressive. Yeah, it's true. And 365 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: with a track record like that, it wasn't long before 366 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: President Johnson decided that Marshall belonged on the Supreme Court. 367 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: So there were a couple of wrenches in his plan, though, 368 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: and the chief among them was that there wasn't actually 369 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: a vacancy to appoint him to. So I'm guessing Johnson 370 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: might have played a little dirty and engineered something for him, right, 371 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: Some say that he did, Yeah, I mean, the story 372 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: goes that Johnson decided to engineer a vacancy himself by 373 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: creating a conflict of interest for one of the sitting justices, 374 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: and this was a fellow Democrat named Tom Clark. So 375 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: apparently President Johnson appointed Clark's son as Attorney General, which 376 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: prompted his father to step down, so it wouldn't look 377 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: like nepotism. So it's up for debate whether this was 378 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: done to open the seat to Marshall specifically, but he 379 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: is definitely the one who filled it, and there is 380 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: evidence that Johnson and Marshall liked each other and got 381 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: along pretty well. So according biographer Juan Williams the two 382 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: men love to drink bourbon and tell stories full of 383 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: lies and watch soapar Rose. Maybe so, But even with 384 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: Johnson on his side, it's not like Marshall's appointment to 385 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court was a cake wall. I can't imagine. 386 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: There was a backlash to trying to get a black 387 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: person on the Supreme Court. Pretty shocking, I know. But 388 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: all right, well, let's take a quick break and then 389 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: get back into this. Okay, Well, so third good. Marshall 390 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: was sworn into the Supreme Court in October of nineteen seven, 391 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: but that was only after what it sounds like was 392 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: this pretty grueling confirmation process. It took place over the 393 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: course of a week that summer, and from what I read, 394 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: Marshall underwent more hours of questioning than any Supreme Court 395 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: nominee before him. Yeah, this was largely because a handful 396 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,719 Speaker 1: of senators from Southern States really had their best to 397 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,719 Speaker 1: torpedo his nomination. To the history of the region has 398 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: left many of these old guard senators with, you know, 399 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: an axe to grind and shutting down. The first potential 400 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: black Scotus member definitely fit the bill. So, for instance, 401 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: Mississippi senator at the time was a guy named James Eastland, 402 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: and according to The Atlantic, Eastland was quote a notorious 403 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: racist whose father had famously lynched black people. He himself 404 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: owned a plantation that employed more than one hundred black sharecroppers, 405 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: and his daughter had been crowned miss Confederacy nineteen six. 406 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: That's a little clue there. Anyway, he was the head 407 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: of the committee for Marshall's nomination. It's like a little 408 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: uphill battle. Yeah. I mean, you read a LinkedIn profile 409 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: like that and it feels like a miracle that that 410 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: Marshall got through, right. I Mean, he wasn't the only 411 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: one there with you know, you might consider questionable views 412 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: on race. So Senators from Thurman was also on the committee. 413 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: It's amazing how long this guy is in office. And 414 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: his main contribution was to subject Marshal to what basically 415 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: amounted to a Jim Crow or a literacy test. He 416 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: crossed examined Marshall, quizzing him on all these obscure, ridiculously 417 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: specific portions of political history. So, for instance, one question 418 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: he asked him was to name all the members of 419 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 1: the Congressional committee that had reviewed the fourteenth amendment in 420 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: eighteen sixties six. Of course he couldn't answer this. But 421 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: there's one thing nobody could a little later in the 422 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: preceding Ted Kennedy Astrom tournament, if he could name the 423 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: committee members from eighteen sixty six and guess what. No, 424 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: of course he couldn't, and there was no reason why 425 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice would need to rattle off random information 426 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: like that. So these Southern senators were drilling Marshall because 427 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: of the color of his skin and because of what 428 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: he represented, not because they had any real serious doubts 429 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: about his legal knowledge or his ability to serve in 430 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: this position, and because the case against Marshall was so flimsy. 431 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: The Judiciary Committee ultimately approved his nomination with a resounding 432 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: eleven to five vote, and then the Senate confirmed him 433 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: with an equally definitive vote of six nine to eleven, 434 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: which honestly is a little surprising when you look back. Yeah, 435 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's impressive, but it does feel like there 436 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: are a significant amount of Senators who didn't vote on it, right, Like, 437 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: that's only like eighty people who voted on his nominations. 438 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: Quick math. Well, in the ind President Johnson knew he 439 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: could never get the votes of the Southern Democratic senators 440 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: who opposed Marshall, so rather than trying to sway the unswayable, 441 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: he instead focused on getting them to abstain from voting altogether, 442 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: rather than casting a vote against Marshall. And the lobbying 443 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: seemed to work, as you can tell from these numbers. 444 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: But I do think it's worth noting that even if 445 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: all twenty of those substentions had voted no on Marshall, 446 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: he still would have had more than enough yes is 447 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: to get confirmed. Yeah, and after the harassment and committee, 448 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: it must have been nice to have that kind of validation, right, Like, 449 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: that's a pretty resounding vote in Marshall's favor. Oh, definitely. 450 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: I mean, the hearing had been this speed bump and 451 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 1: one ended up being a pretty smooth next few years 452 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: for Marshall. He joined a very liberal Supreme Court, which 453 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: obviously lined up very well with Marshall's own political views. 454 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: So I am curious about this, Like, what would you 455 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: say those views were? Broadly speaking? Like, his job was 456 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: obviously to interpret the Constitution, so what was his take 457 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: on it? I mean, it's hard to say definitively, but 458 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: from what I've read, about his rulings and from people 459 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: who worked closely with him, it sounds like Marshall largely 460 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: viewed the Constitution as a means of promoting a kind 461 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: of equality under the law, especially following the Civil War 462 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: and the addition of certain amendments. And I think that 463 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: viewpoint is certainly reflected in the changes to the constitutional 464 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: law that he had advocated for during all his years 465 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: as both an attorney and then later as a judge. 466 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: And he was trying to make the law align more 467 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: closely with the goal of legal equality under the law 468 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: that he saw represented in the Constitution. And actually, I 469 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: have a quote here that's a good example of the 470 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: kind of alignment I'm talking about. This is something Marshall 471 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: said in which is just a few years before his 472 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: retirement in ninety one. He said, quote, a child born 473 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: to a black mother in a state like Mississippi has 474 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: exactly the same rights as a white bay be born 475 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: the wealthiest person in the United States. It's not true, 476 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: but I challenge anyone to say it's not a goal 477 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: worth working for, which is obviously like a powerful way 478 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: to think about it. And it's interesting to think about 479 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: how people interpret Marshall's philosophy. It's kind of this, uh, 480 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 1: do what you think is right and let the law 481 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: catch up idea. And on one hand that puts them 482 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,239 Speaker 1: in the category of activist judges, which some politicians kind 483 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: of rail against today, And on the other hand it 484 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: sort of lets the laws guide the country to a 485 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: more equitable world. But I was thinking a lot about 486 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: this week how Marshall played a pretty unique role in 487 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement in that regard, like you think 488 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: about Martin Luther King Jr. And Malcolm X, and how 489 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: they sort of shared the spotlight when people think about 490 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: the most influential figures of that era, and they each 491 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: tried their own different courses of action, right Like King 492 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: was more of this I have a dream, big unity, 493 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: big movement, and Malcolm was more by any means necessary. 494 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: But in the background you've got through Marshall plugging away 495 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: with the third Course of Act and not to change 496 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: society directly, but but to actually change the laws that 497 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: dictate the kind of society we live in. He actually 498 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: came across an obituary from Marshall that um that said, 499 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: we make movies about Malcolm X. We get a holiday 500 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: to honor Dr Martin Luther King. But every day we 501 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: live the legacy of justice third good Marshal, Which isn't 502 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: to say that we don't live the legacy of the 503 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: other guys too, But legal precedent can sometimes hold more 504 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: sway in the long term than a speech or a march. 505 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: So I do think we owe a special kind of 506 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: debt to Marshall for you know, sort of covering the 507 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: bases on that end. So why do you think Marshall 508 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to get as much attention these days as 509 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: other civil rights icons. Is it just that like courtroom 510 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: dramas are seen as kind of stuffy or dance or 511 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: academic compared to like speeches and protests. Yeah, I mean, 512 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, I actually think a lot of it comes 513 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: down to how Marshall's career went in the years after 514 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: he joined the Supreme Court. We mentioned there had been 515 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: a liberal majority when Marshall was confirmed in the late 516 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, but that changed drastically over the course of 517 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: the seventies and then into the eighties. If during Marshall's 518 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: twenty four years on the court, Republican presidents made eight 519 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,959 Speaker 1: consecutive appointments, was transformed the court and filled every spot 520 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: on the bench but his So that means then in 521 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: the second half of his tenure, Marshall was in the 522 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: minority and found you know, his opinions increasingly overruled. As 523 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: you might imagine that, there wasn't an easy transition for 524 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: somebody whose entire career was built on his incredible pensiant 525 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: for winning. Marshall became more and more isolated from the 526 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: rest of the court. You know, his contributions mostly limited 527 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 1: to these strongly worded descents about his colleagues rulings. But 528 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: he never gave up. Actually, at one point even vowed 529 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: to remain on the court until he was a hundred 530 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: and ten years old. But in the end he became 531 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: too ill to continue serving and had to step down 532 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: in n So two years later, Marshall passed away at 533 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: the age of eighty four. Well, it's fascinating to hear 534 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: how Marshall got styming like that after finally making it 535 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court. But I know, his presence on 536 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: the court alone still had this like profound impact on 537 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: the country and and certainly on the issues he spent 538 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: his whole life fighting for. And I'm sure just having 539 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: a black man seated on the highest court in the 540 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: land had to be life changing for millions of people 541 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: and something that must have influenced so many kids and 542 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: what they dreamed was possible. You know, I think even 543 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: if you don't have that personal connection with his service, 544 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: there's still so much to admire about Marshall's legacy. So 545 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: his commitment to changing the system from within, and you know, 546 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: being a voice for the voiceless is something that should 547 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: still resonate with all of us. In fact, this is 548 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: gonna sound random, but did you happen to come across 549 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: the commencement address that he gave at the University of Virginia. No, 550 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: I haven't read that, all right, Well, he gave it 551 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: to the graduating class of ninety eight, and it is 552 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: worth tracking down. I won't read all of it here, 553 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: but there's this one piece of advice that really stuck 554 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: out to me, and it just says, where you see 555 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: wrong or inequality or injustice, speak out because this is 556 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: your country, this is your democracy, make it, protect it, 557 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: pass it on. I like that. So what do you 558 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: say we leave things there and jump straight into the 559 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: fact off. All right, Well, here's something kind of grando. 560 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: Remember how I mentioned that third good. Marshall graduated college 561 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: with the first president of Ghana earlier. So well, it 562 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: turns out that wasn't the only connection Marshall had with 563 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: the emerging nation. In the nineteen fifties, after Marshall made 564 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: a name for himself with the a c P, the 565 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: United Nations and the United Kingdom asked him to help 566 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: write the constitutions of Ghana and Tanzi, which he of 567 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: course did and in fact, both of those constitutions are 568 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: still in use today. That is wild. But you know 569 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: what made the UN and in the UK think to 570 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: ask Marshal for help. Well, at the time, the regions 571 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: had just won their independence from European rules, so there 572 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: was some international concern about the minority white citizens of 573 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: the new countries and the fact that they might face oppression. 574 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: And so the U N and the UK figured that 575 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: since Marshall had been such an effective champion for minority 576 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: rights in America, he actually might be able to do 577 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: the same for God in Tanzania. That's really interesting. So 578 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: here's what I was pretty shocked to learn. Not only 579 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: was Thurgood Marshall sworn into the Supreme Court by a 580 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: former klansman, it actually happened by Marshall's request. So apparently 581 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: Marshall saw it as a way to kind of extend 582 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: in Olive branch to the South and to the Southern 583 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: senators who had opposed his nomination. And weirdly enough, the 584 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: one time Alabama Clan member was this guy named Hugo. Black. 585 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: He was also a Justice of the Supreme Court when 586 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: Marshall was appointed in nineteen sixty seven. So Black had 587 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: been appointed to the Court back in ninety seven, and 588 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: it was just a few weeks into his term that 589 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: his prior involvement with the clan came to light. So 590 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: dozens of newspapers called for his resignation, but Black stayed 591 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: on on the court anyway, sitting the fact that he 592 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: had already cut ties with the clan I guess more 593 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: than a decade earlier, and that he had no intention 594 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: of ever joining up again. So do you think Black 595 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: ever really turned over a new leaf or was he 596 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: just distancing himself from the clan, you know, for political reasons. 597 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: It is tough to say for certain either way, but 598 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: the truth is probably somewhere in between. If you look 599 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: at Black's track record on the court, it certainly seems 600 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: like he changed his mind. He was part of that 601 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: unanimous ruling that struck down school segregation, and he and 602 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: Marshall actually became pretty chummy while serving together until Black's 603 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: retirement in nineteen seventy one. Of course, anyway you look 604 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: at it, a former klansman swearing in the first black 605 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice does say a lot about the changing 606 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,479 Speaker 1: shape of race relations in America at the time, and 607 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: it was this really powerful message to send, and Marshall 608 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: didn't let that opportunity go to waste. Or One thing 609 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: I don't think we've mentioned yet is the nickname Marshall 610 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: earned for himself during his time working for the Double 611 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: A c P. He was known colloquially as Mr. Civil Rights. 612 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: Really creative though, and his dedication to the cause certainly 613 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: made him deserving of this title. In fact, Marshall often 614 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: put his own life on the line while fighting for 615 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: these civil rights, and it was in nineteen forty six 616 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: that he went to Tennessee to defend a group of 617 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: black men and a pretty racially charged case. Once the 618 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: trial over, Marshall and his colleagues knew it was in 619 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 1: their best entriest to get out of town as fast 620 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: as possible. Unfortunately, their concern was quickly validated because, according 621 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: to biographer Will hay Good, Marshall's group was ambushed on 622 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: the road by locals and Marshall himself was arrested on 623 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: these false charges. Separate from this group. Marshall was then 624 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: placed in a black sheriff's car immediately driven off the 625 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: main road, which, given the circumstances, was pretty omous, and 626 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 1: to make the whole thing even more suspicious, Marshall's colleagues 627 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: were instructed not to follow and instead to continue driving 628 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: on their way to Nashville. Luckily, the group knew better. 629 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: They decided to tail the sheriff anyway, and at that 630 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: point the car quickly returned to the main road and 631 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: Marshall was released not long afterwards. So when recounting the 632 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: event years later, Marshall said he would have been lynched 633 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: then and there if not for his colleagues, So that 634 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: is horrifying. Here's one that's a little later. According to 635 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: Marshall's second wife, he was a super talented home cook, 636 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: and he would often come home in the evenings after 637 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: a long day in the Supreme Court and then just 638 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: whip up these amazing meals for his wife and two sons, 639 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: using every single pot in the kitchen. Apparently his specialty 640 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: dish was chicken and Chitland's. I kind of want this 641 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: a third good Marshall cook book, all right. Speaking of 642 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: Marshall's second wife, I've actually got a sweet one here 643 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: about her. She was a woman of Philippine descent. Her 644 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: name was Cecilia Suyot, and the way she and Marshall 645 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: met was a bit of a happy accident. Cecilia went 646 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: to the unemployment office in ninety eight she was looking 647 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: for work, and because her skin was on the darker side, 648 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: the clerk assumed she was black and set her up 649 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: with a job as a stenographer for then double A 650 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: CPS legal team. Cecilia later said she was forever grateful 651 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: for the clerk's mistaken assumption, because not only did it 652 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: open her eyes to the race problem of America, it 653 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: also introduced her to her future husband. At first, though, 654 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: Cecilia wasn't sure she and Marshall would make a good match, 655 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: or at least not a publicly accepted one. Although she 656 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: had been born in Hawaii, she worried that people would 657 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: think Marshall was marrying a foreigner. And then it would 658 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: have had a negative impact on his budding career. But 659 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: Marshall didn't want any of that. When Cecilia raised this concern, 660 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: Marshall told her plainly, I don't care what people think. 661 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm marrying you. And he did. But Marshall and Cecilia 662 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: tied the knot in nineteen had two sons together, John 663 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: and Third Good Jr. And remained happily married until Marshall's 664 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: passing in nine oh and I'm happy to report Cecilia 665 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: herself is still going strong today at ninety years young. 666 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: I love that, such a great story, and I do 667 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: think you deserved today's trophy for it. That does it 668 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: for today's show. If you want to send us facts 669 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: or just say hello, where a part Time Genius at 670 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: I heart media dot com. So from Gabe, Tristan Will 671 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: and me, thank you so much for listening. Part Time 672 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: Genius is a production of I Heart Radio. For more 673 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 674 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 675 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: H