1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, and I 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: have some bad news for you all. Kind of at 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: the start of this episode, starting in like twenty twenty one, 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: kind of late, you know, early pandemic period, I started 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: chatting with a good friend of mine, Cormack McCarthy, about 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: bringing one of his books to life and the way 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: he'd always intended, which was by having me read Blood 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: Meridian in my award winning Boston accent in its entirety. 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: We finished, you know, kind of our discussions right before 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: he tragically passed earlier this year. Sophie and I recorded 11 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: the whole thing. We were about to release it as 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: a surprise, but we've, as a result of the writers 13 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: and now the actors strike in solidarity, decided to delete 14 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: the entirety of Boston Blood Meridian. So you know, I'm 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: very sorry. I know a lot of you were looking 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: forward to this, and all I can say is that 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: if you want to do something about this and force 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: us to release it. David Zoslov's home address is Beverly Hills, California, 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: So you know, I don't I'm not telling you to 20 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: do anything. Just just think about it. That's where his 21 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: sixty five million dollar Beverly Hills mansion is also loupe me. 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: Into this weird crime you're doing right now, Sophie. 23 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: It's not a crime because the mansion that he bought 24 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: used to belong to the other Robert Evans, so I'm 25 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: allowed to read it on air. 26 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: There is no other Robert Evans. 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: You are. Thank you. It is thank you, Sophie, speaking 28 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: of other people who are the only example of their kind. 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: Sarah Marshall, Hello, Actually this. 30 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 3: God, It's true. We're both doppelgangers. 31 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: We are both doppelgangers. It is interesting that we both 32 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: have a famous person who utilized our name that is 33 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: involved in Hollywood. 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 3: It is, and it's also weird to be the real person, 35 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: the non Hollywood person. 36 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: You are the real version. 37 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and yet I'm the other one. 38 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: Every time I come across a copy of that movie 39 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: at a red box, I kick it. So I'm doing 40 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: my part. 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 3: You are doing your part. That's all I ask for. 42 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, you are. You are one of the most accomplished 43 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: podcasters in the biz. A real uh. I was going 44 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: to like give you a nickname based on a famous podcaster, 45 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: but most of them are terrible people. Actually, I'm a 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: real Margan. Yeah, no, you you do some of the 47 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: best podcasts in the business, and you also live in Portland, Oregon. 48 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: How are you doing today? Yeah, I'm so good. 49 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 3: Yes, this is an all Portland show, which I love. 50 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 3: I especially love it when I meet people who say, 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 3: do you live in New York or LA? And I 52 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 3: say Portland. It's like the third secret answer always, Oh. 53 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: Yeah it is. 54 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: They say oh. And then they say and where are 55 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 3: you from? And you say Portland and they say, oh. 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: See that's different because there are that this is Portland's 57 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: a little weird to me in that and that like, 58 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: unlike all of the other West Coast cities, you ask 59 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: anyone where they're from, and it's anywhere about the West Coast, 60 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: but in Portland some people actually come from here, which 61 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: is surprising to me. 62 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 3: It's a I mean, it's a great city to stick 63 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 3: around in. I feel like Pittsburgh is the same way. 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 3: It's like, I don't know, and it's you have a 65 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 3: really nice quality of life here. I think. 66 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 4: I like it. 67 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 3: The Yeah, I'm so happy you like it. It's killing And 68 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 3: I was just juicing a watermelon before we started, because 69 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 3: it is watermelon tyme. There are little signs for Hermerston 70 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 3: melons up in our streets where you can go buy 71 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 3: them from a truck, and uh, it's watermelon time. 72 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: I'm pretty happy I had watermelon for lunch, Thank you 73 00:03:58,280 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: so much. 74 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm extremely hungover right now, So a watermelon sounds great. 75 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: I do. And I'm sorry for telling you this, Sarah, 76 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: but uh, the AI will will be able to take 77 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: your line where you said that you were just juicing 78 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: a watermelon and turn that into a conversation with Joe 79 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: Rogan about steroids. 80 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 3: So I do we have to deal with that? 81 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 4: We all have to deal with that apparently, whereas I 82 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 4: call I was just gonna say, apparently you only get 83 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 4: paid for one day of your work and then they'll 84 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 4: use it forever. 85 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's yeah, they juice, yeah, and then they throw 86 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 3: you away. 87 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 5: Yeah. 88 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 3: Joe Rogan, or as I call him, the guy from 89 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: news radio. 90 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: The guy from news radio. Yeah, it's good because we 91 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: all needed as shorthand that we could use to simultaneously 92 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: refer to Joe Rogan and Andy Dick. These are great 93 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: jokes for three percent of our audience. 94 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 3: What is it also that like? And here's a joke 95 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 3: for that three percent as well. I can't believe that 96 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 3: podcast that has truly changed American society. Oh yeah, has 97 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 3: come from a news radio alum, and that it wasn't 98 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 3: Dave Foley, who I think solid if he had that 99 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: size of a following, I would be okay with that, 100 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: I think. 101 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have been okay with Phil Hartman having 102 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: that big of a following. 103 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: Oh my god, Phil Hartman is alive and Joe Rogan 104 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 3: is you know the other one. 105 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: I was just gonnay, wouldn't it be nice if Phil 106 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: Hartman was alive? But yeah, that does really complete it 107 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: the wish. Speaking of tragedy, how do you feel about kidnapping, Sarah. 108 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: I'm always ready to talk about a kidnapping, as is 109 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: my anxiety brain at one in the morning when I'm 110 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 3: on Wikipedia. So this is much better than that. 111 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: That's good because we're kind of our subject for this 112 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: week is pretty focused on the anxiety brain and how 113 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: it relates to paranoid conspiracy theories about kidnapping, because it 114 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: turns out that's a real problem, and we're going to 115 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: start by talking about kind of the deadliest manifestation of 116 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: that problem. On June's sixteenth, twenty and twenty three. Phoebe 117 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: Howard coppis a forty eight year old woman from Tompkinsville, Kentucky, 118 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: flew to El Paso, Texas to hang out with her boyfriend. 119 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: Upon arrival, she got into an Uber driven by a 120 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: fifty two year old man named Daniel Piedre Garcia. His 121 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: niece later described him as a hard working and funny 122 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: guy who had an instinctive ability to lift other people 123 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: up when he was in a bad mood. Piedros was 124 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: the sole breadwinner for his family and had started driving 125 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: for Uber after recovering from an injury at a previous job. 126 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: He started driving copas to her boyfriend's place. She was 127 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: not familiar with El Paso. She had been won there 128 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: two times before, and she got spooked because she saw 129 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: a sign for Juarez, Mexico, which convinced her, for some reason, 130 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: that she was about to be kidnapped and trafficked across 131 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: the border. Now, El Paso, if you've never been, is 132 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: the sister city or sibling city or whatever to Juarez. 133 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: They're effectively suburbs of each other, right Like Juarez and 134 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: El Paso are basically the same city with a border 135 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: in between them. So seeing signs for Juarez while you're 136 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: in El Paso. Not a weird experience, but Copas are 137 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: all over the place. It's content, yeah, because it's right there. 138 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 3: Very pretty city. 139 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: It's a great city. We'll talk about that. But Copas 140 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: gets freaked out, so she pulls a handgun from her 141 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: purse and she shoots Piedra in the head from behind 142 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: the vehicle, which was not particularly close to any of 143 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: the entrances to Mexico. Not that that really matters, but 144 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: she's going to make claims about this slid to a 145 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: stop and impacted a freeway barrier. Copas texted a picture 146 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: to her boyfriend and then she called nine to one one. Now, 147 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: this story, when it happened, because she kills him, goes 148 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: viral for several reasons. Obviously, it's at the intersection of 149 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: a bunch of salient issues in US politics. You've got immigration, 150 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: you've got the border, you've got gun control, you've got racism. 151 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: But it's also a story that could kind of be 152 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: briskly described as part of the now expansive Karen goes 153 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: crazy genre, right where you've got like a woman who 154 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: reacts in some sort of aggressive or violent way because 155 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: you know of shit that people would kind of could 156 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: kind of like sum up in that way. When the 157 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: story broke on Twitter before much was known about it, 158 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: many of the posts that I saw just kind of 159 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: casually assumed that Copus was a white, suburban woman because 160 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: that was the picture of the person who would do 161 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: something like this that most jibed with their pre existing assumptions, 162 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: and kind of the again assumption was that she was 163 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: probably a strong right winger who would imbibe a lot 164 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: of racist propaganda about the border. Now, as I'm going 165 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: to talk about, we don't have super clear information about 166 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: like what sort of info ecosystem she existed in, but 167 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: Copus is a black woman, and from what I can 168 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: get about her socioeconomic status, she seems to have been 169 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: kind of broadly middle class. You know, she's a grandmother. 170 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: There was not anything I found her social media, and 171 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: there was nothing in it that would make you think 172 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: she was not posting about guns, She was not posting 173 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: paranoid conspiracies about the border or about any of this stuff. 174 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: Like it was like a weirdly normal thing, like like 175 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: social media profile from everything forty eight. Okay, so you 176 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: know someone who had a kid and young and became 177 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: a grandma pretty young. But you know, there was nothing 178 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: in it that like set off. I do this all 179 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: the time, right, like I used to for a living, 180 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: when you know, mass shootings and stuff would be done, 181 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: scrape shit on the people who had committed the shooting 182 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: to talk like try to figure out like what had 183 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: been going on with them prior to making that decision, 184 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: and copus. I don't. There's nothing that's I would consider 185 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: a warning sign in her publicly available information. The most 186 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: recently updated post on her Facebook before killing Piedras was 187 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: a profile pick from February seventeenth, and in general, most 188 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: of the activity on her Facebook was just like occasionally 189 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: updating her portrait. What update she did post We're all 190 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: super normal. There's an update from March of twenty twenty 191 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: two that's just a video of her dancing with her 192 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: grandkid with the text Tatum's birthday dance. He loves dancing 193 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: with his Gigi. Love him and it's one of those 194 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: because I got to this, I don't know, maybe a 195 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: day or two after the shooting. The comments on there 196 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: are it's this weird thing that you get with the 197 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: internet where like somebody does something terrible and then people 198 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: find their anadyne social media posts and start like commenting 199 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: on it. So the first couple of comments on this 200 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: year old post are like family member being like, oh, 201 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: it's so cute, you know, you and the kid are 202 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: so cute. And then it becomes like a bunch of 203 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: weirdos posting like your family member is a murderer, like 204 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: fuck this lady she killed somebody, which is like, yeah, 205 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: I mean she did kill some buddy, and I broadly agree, yeah, 206 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: fuck her, because that's bad. You shouldn't shoot people in 207 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 1: the back of the head. 208 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: It's so true. You're always saying that. 209 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: I'm always saying that, But it's a I do. I 210 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: can't not find it kind of unsettling to like hop 211 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: on these pictures of a lady and her grandkid and 212 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: just be like, fuck you for killing a guy. And 213 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: it's like not just fuck you for killing a guy, 214 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: but like, hey, person who is a family member of 215 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: this person, like your your relative is is a bad person. 216 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: That's a strange impulse. I guess I feel like it's weird. 217 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 3: It's strange to have that technology available to us and 218 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: all of all of the things that lets us do Yeah. 219 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's weird kind of like right below that 220 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: first post your your kin is a murderer post is 221 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: another comment from somebody who told one of Kopus's relatives 222 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: visit her in prison while she is alive lol, l 223 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: passo another type of jail, she will get it lol, 224 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: which I think it meant like El Paso has Another time, 225 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: it's a reference to like the death penalty, right that, 226 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: like hm, which is true, but like also I don't know, man, 227 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: Like again, what she did is bad. I like you 228 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to do that and just like walk 229 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: away from it obviously, but like it's weird to just 230 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: be like, hey, family members of this person who murdered 231 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: a guy, like your your relative might get the chair, 232 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: Like that's such a strange thing. 233 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 3: And the ease of being able to do that without 234 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 3: leaving your house is yeah, very dangerous. 235 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's there was another someone else posted, like 236 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, commenting like had scraped her her details enough 237 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: to figure out that she was like a home designer 238 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: for a living and like noted gleefully she'll have to 239 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: decorate her new cell home cell with scrap, maybe using 240 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: toilet paper and then. 241 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 3: All prison fantasies are just never sit right right, no 242 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 3: matter what somebody did. It's just like, Okay, calm down, 243 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: because like using prison as a way of fantasizing about 244 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 3: revenge reveals the whole thing being what it is. 245 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's fascinating because this person starts by 246 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: being like, ha ha, she was a home designer and 247 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: now she'll be designing a cell and then in the 248 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: middle of the post is like, oh, I take it back. 249 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: She was a case worker, which is I feel like 250 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: someone other than me, you could like there's so much 251 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: to say about America and just sort of analyzing the 252 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: decision this person made to like real time fact check 253 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: while she was making her post without like editing or 254 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: changing it, Like there's so much there. I don't know 255 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: what to say about it. But it's like I feel 256 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 1: it's like Finnigan's Wake. We're like somewhere trapped in that 257 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: post is like the secret to the madness of the 258 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 1: United States. Yeah, but I. 259 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 3: Just need someone to write a dissertation on it. 260 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Kids in college who are listening to this podcast, 261 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: there you go like that's that's a free one for you. 262 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 1: And it is like we're talking about how like kind 263 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: of weird this is, but at the same time, it's 264 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: not weird, right, This is just like you, like anyone 265 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: who's not unfamiliar with the Internet knows like, well, yeah, 266 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: there's like public facing social media for somebody who does 267 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: something terrible, this is going to happen to it, right, 268 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: That's just the way the world works. So you know, 269 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: it's it's it's weird, but it's not weird. As far 270 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: as Copus goes, the closest we get to anything that 271 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: reveals like what kind of ideology might have made her 272 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: shoot a stranger in the back of the head while 273 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: he was driving her down the highway is a lecture, 274 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: a quote or a clip from a lecture that she 275 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: posted on her Facebook. And the lecture is by a 276 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: guy named T. D. Jakes who's an American non denominational 277 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: megachurch preacher. And it's like a kind of very patriarchal, 278 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: traditional little like thing. He's talking about how like a 279 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: woman is like salt, you know, she makes everything better, 280 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: including like she makes men who are like shitty better, 281 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: and that's like the job of a woman, right. It's like, yeah, 282 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: it's obviously like it's toxic, but it's not. Also, this 283 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: isn't like a like Tdjake Saint Jordan Peterson, Right, this 284 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: is a guy you walk into any maybe even never 285 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: heard of him, but you walk in any fucking bookstore 286 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: in the United States and there's Tdjke's books and shit 287 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: like he is an incredibly popular megachurch preacher. So I 288 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't there's nothing in here that I would call like 289 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: a warning sign. The most actual, like like kind of 290 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: thing that we get that might suggest some toxicity in 291 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: her in her personal life comes from the fundraiser that 292 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: her family posted on Gibson to Go after she got arrested. 293 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: It reads, or it starts, our daughter, who is an 294 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: attractive forty eight year old African American woman, is being 295 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: detained in El Paso, Texas at the El Paso County 296 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: Detention Center because of the charge of her shooting a 297 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: Hispanic male. Now that's a little weird, right who I 298 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: heard her? Her family? Right? 299 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, our daughter who is in a track. 300 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: Who is an attractive Okay, that's that's weird. That's a 301 00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: little lot and. 302 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 3: Rule write that sentence for them the grave to do it. Yeah, expensive, God. 303 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: That's straight. That's a bit peculiar right now. Yes, the 304 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: post goes on to claim, and there's no evidence for this, 305 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: that she asked the driver to stop numerous times and 306 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: he refused to stop, and then he engaged the child locks, 307 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: which is why she decided to shoot him. Yeah, it's 308 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: again peculiar that, like they describe her as attractive, What 309 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: we can say safely, giving given the known facts of 310 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: the case, is that Phoebe Copis was a pretty normal 311 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: seeming person from the outside who probably, i mean, it's 312 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: probably accurate to say had a distinctly irrational fear of 313 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: being kidnapped, and that fear was exacerbated by her proximity 314 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: to Mexico. Coppus has spoken out since her arrest through 315 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: her lawyer, to claim that she demanded Piedras pull over 316 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: and let her out, and that he told her he 317 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: was taking her to affair in Juarez. Again, there's zero 318 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: evidence of this, and the police report states the defendant 319 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: never called for police or emergency services to report her 320 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: being in any immediate danger prior to shooting the complaining witness. 321 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: The defendant took a photo of the complaining witness after 322 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: he was shot and sent it to her boyfriend via 323 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: text message prior to calling nine to one one. Copus's lawyer, 324 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: Matthew Koasick, has claimed that the media that Copus had 325 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: been ingesting had contributed to the mindset that she was 326 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: in when she carried out the shooting. From Yahoo News quote, 327 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: he said that his client was in fear of her 328 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: life because of her knowledge of violence and kidnappings and 329 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: Warez and seeing highway signs on US fifty four showing 330 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: exits Touarez. During the hearing, Kozik showed news articles reporting 331 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: on violence and Warez, including stories about drug cartels and kidnappings. 332 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: He also showed photos where the shooting happened in traffic 333 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: signs showing the highway led to Warez. So, like, that's 334 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: what her defense is going to rest on. And I 335 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: think there's a degree to which, like, I don't think 336 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: that's a good defense, but it's it is accurate that 337 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: if you are like somebody who engaged, like who consumes 338 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: mainstream news media, most of what you hear about Wjuarez 339 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: is kidnappings and murders, right, most of what you hear 340 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: about the US border is kidnappings and murders. Now I 341 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: can remember like fucking fifteen years ago. I was on 342 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: a road trip and we like were in El Paso 343 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,239 Speaker 1: and crossed over to Warez to get lunch, and when 344 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: we came back, the border patrol guy was so suspicious 345 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: of us that he like stripped our car down like 346 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: took every like like almost to like the fucking metal 347 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: because he was like, nobody stops in Warez for lunch. 348 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: It's the most dangerous city on Earth. And it's like, 349 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 1: man like, yeah, if you're fucking doing weirdo, like if 350 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: you're doing certain things, it's dangerous, but like it's also 351 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: a place just a lot of people live. You can 352 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: go get lunch in Warez. The cartels aren't coming for 353 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: you there, you know, Like but it is like that's 354 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: just how people think about the city, which is peculiar 355 00:18:54,880 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: to me. But I yeah, I started kind of looking 356 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: into the media surrounded kidnap surrounding kidnappings in the United 357 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: States because it was one of those things I felt 358 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: like there had to be something peculiar there that like 359 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: would set someone like Phoebe Copus off, Like there had 360 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: to be even if we don't have, you know, kind 361 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: of evidence from her info diet. When I started like 362 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: looking into just kind of going on the big the 363 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: major social media apps, looking up like what kind of 364 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: the trending stories involving kidnapping or human trafficking was, you 365 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: start to like see some patterns, and one of the 366 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: patterns is that kidnapping related content is among the most 367 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: reliable ways to go viral on the Internet right now. 368 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: If you start looking for kid tiktoks using kidnapping, using 369 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: human trafficking, you'll see a bunch that have multiple million views. 370 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: And if particularly, one of the things that keyed me 371 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: in is like I would see some weirdo who would 372 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: do something like take a clip from a made for 373 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: TV movie about a kid getting kidnapped and then like 374 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: put an a AI voiceover over it to be talking 375 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: about like here's you know, how kidnappings happen, and that 376 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: video would have like four million views and everything else 377 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: in their channel would be like ten twenty thousand, right, 378 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, this is like a reliable way 379 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: to get follows and to get views is like putting 380 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: kidnapping shit out there. 381 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: AI have voice that they use in like movie summary 382 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 3: accounts and also stuff like that where it's like the 383 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 3: girl is walking down the streets, the girls her by 384 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 3: the wrist. 385 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've seen exactly the ones I'm talking about. 386 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: So I started looking into this and it kept getting 387 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: weirder and weirder. So one TikTok that I found in 388 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: my research was from the account TV moments, which has 389 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: two hundred and forty four thousand followers and fourteen point 390 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: three million likes, and it mostly posts clips from news 391 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: stories with on screen text summaries, stuff like triple homicide 392 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: suspect and appears in court with the text heartbreaking story 393 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: and read above it, or titles like child abducted from 394 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: Berkeley home, American kidnapped walking dog in Mexico, and this 395 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: video that I'm about to show our Sophie's about to 396 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: show you, which is posted April second, used as a 397 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: clip from news Nation, which is a news network that 398 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: is kind of like a mild conservative bent and here's 399 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 1: here's how it sounds. 400 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 6: Forty thousand dollars reward is being offered to help find 401 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 6: an American woman who went missing in Mexico. This new 402 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 6: reward comes four months after that she was snatched into 403 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 6: a van in broad daylight, and now her family in 404 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 6: California is calling for authorities to finally bring her home. 405 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 6: News Nation correspondent jorgeban Tura joining us live in El 406 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 6: Paso tonight. Orgey, we're learning that this was a targeted attack. 407 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's right, Natasha. We have new images of an 408 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 7: American woman, Michael de Leon Barber, showing her alleged kidnapping 409 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 7: in Mexico in November or last year. The FBI says 410 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 7: she was walking her dog from the gym and at 411 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 7: this kidnapping is most likely targeted. She was actually walking 412 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 7: in the Kailisco state in Mexico. The FBI is asking 413 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 7: for the public's help and fighting and they're offering up 414 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 7: to forty thousand dollars for information leading up to her recovery. Now, 415 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 7: FBI investigators believe that her attack was targeted and we're 416 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 7: still waiting for more information on that. 417 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: So you listen to that and it's clear this is 418 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: again it's like a targeted abduction. But the actual like 419 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: media like everything that's like written in text on the clip, 420 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: everything in the titling of the clip is just an 421 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: American was kidnapped in Mexico. The actual story here is like, yeah, 422 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: this person was kidnapped specifically because of who she was. 423 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: This was not random. They weren't just like looking for 424 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: a lady, like. They were looking for this woman because 425 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: of like a family connection, right like, which is the 426 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: thing that happens. And that's how most, very very rarely 427 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: are people abducted at random anywhere in the world. It's 428 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: not a super common kind of crime. But this would 429 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: have been, I think, kind of one of the most 430 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: recent stories that COPUS might have encountered relating to El Paso. 431 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: It was kind of a big deal, and it sets 432 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: off up this kind of idea that like Americans are 433 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: getting randomly picked up off the street right at the border. Obviously, 434 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: the reality is that El Paso in particular is one 435 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: of the safest cities in the United States. It's the 436 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: fourth safest large city in the US. It has extremely 437 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: low rates of violence and property crime. But that's not 438 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: what people think when they hear about it because of 439 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: the reliability of content that involves kidnapping in the border 440 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: going viral. Every aspect of this story is tied in 441 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: with the fact that for more than a century, the 442 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: United States has been engaged in a kind of perpetual 443 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: moral panic over our border with Mexico. And it's one 444 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: of those things that like this is, you know, people 445 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: have been kind of like broadly positive about some of 446 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: the ways that the RITE has performed poorly at the 447 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: ballot box in the last couple of elections. But one 448 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: area in which they're like conservative propaganda in particular has 449 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: been undoubtedly successful is at creating a sense of fear 450 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: in behalf of the majority of this country about the border. 451 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 1: An NPR pool from last year showed that more than 452 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: half of Americans perceived that there was an invasion going 453 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: on at the southern border. Support for immigrants has broadly 454 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: declined over the last four to six years. And it's, 455 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: you know, again, all of this is kind of playing it. 456 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of cooking into the stew of whatever was 457 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: going on in this woman's head when she decided to 458 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: shoot that guy. The fact that Texas recently made permitless 459 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: concealed carry legal also certainly played a role. And there's 460 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: something else that I suspect might have contributed, which is 461 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: that for the last eight years or so, false stories 462 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: have been spreading with increasing regularity about random people being 463 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: targeted by kidnappers or robbers. These primarily spread today on 464 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: TikTok and Facebook, that's where most of the stuff comes from. 465 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: But also this kind of brand of content has been 466 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: going on and been spreading in this country since well 467 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: before the birth of the internet. You might remember, Sarah, 468 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: because you and I are both old. Like the stories 469 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: about like hook handed killers in the backseat of cars, right, 470 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: Like do you hear did you hear that as a kid? 471 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: You ever hear that? Like? Yeah, these tales about like 472 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: people waiting in the seats of cars. 473 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, I encountered it, I think, yeah, because there's like 474 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 3: I think I'm more encountered at secondhand through other forms 475 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 3: of media. But like, yes, there's definitely a lot of 476 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: hook handed men to go around. I know there's a 477 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 3: great hook hand story in Adventures in Babysitting, Yes to 478 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 3: Settle is it handsome John Pruitt? 479 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, great film also, and it's one of those things 480 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: like I can remember. I'm sure that, like, particularly just 481 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: because of aspects of our culture, young women get like 482 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: more of these kind of warning stories. You should always 483 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: be aware people might be there to abduct you. But 484 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: like when I did my driving and I went to 485 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: like driving school to like get my my my license. Uh, 486 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: one of the things they taught us was that anytime 487 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: you're going back to your car, you should check underneath 488 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: it to see if someone's there. Like that's that was 489 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: just like a thing in driving school, like there might 490 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: be people waiting under your car to attack you. 491 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 3: How many confirmed cases do we have of this that 492 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 3: aren't cape fear. 493 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: I have not come across a single one saying it's 494 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: just cape fear. It's just yeah, it's I'm sure it's 495 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: just the result of a fucking Oh god, now I've 496 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: forgotten his you know the cape fear guy. Oh yeah, Maxicus, 497 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: Stephen Stephen Cape. Well, I was going to say Stephen King. 498 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: It's just like Stephen King funding all of the driving 499 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: schools in this country, Like, no, you have to warn people. 500 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 3: The Miko Hughes. Uh, the Miko Hughes Driver's exam pavilion. Yeah, 501 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 3: there's also that also, I mean there's so many of these. 502 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 3: But one I remember making the rounds when I was 503 00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 3: in high school was like women should not wear overalls 504 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 3: or a long ponytails or braids because if you have 505 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 3: a long pony, Sophie, you're fucked, by the way, And 506 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 3: so yeah, a long ponytail and yeah, long brain. 507 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: That's why I shaved my head, stop me from I'm 508 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: not gonna get kidnapped now. 509 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because if the kidnappers, it's like when you 510 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 3: go to the pumpkin pack to get a pumpkin, they 511 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 3: want to handle, yeah, and it's like if you don't 512 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 3: give them a braid to grab onto, you'll be safe. 513 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 2: And it's like, I'm fucked. That's the that's my only hairstyle, Sarah, 514 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: I'm so screwed. 515 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 3: It's amazing you've made it this far. 516 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 2: Honestly, well for more than just that reason. 517 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: But yes, it's very it's very funny because, like again, 518 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: I think probably the majority of times when people get 519 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: advice like this, it is like women being warned about 520 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: the dangers of the world. I have also, especially when 521 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: my beard was longer, I would just like, you know, 522 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to like a I'm like a gun range 523 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: or something, and some guys like you know, if you 524 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: don't shave that, you know, when a fight, somebody will 525 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: like pull that to control you and get control in 526 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: a man. How many fights are you getting it? Are 527 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: you scrapping with dudes like that? Like I've been in 528 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: more fights than most people, just because like I'm a 529 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: public person, who gets assaulted on the streets sometimes and 530 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: I don't get in enough fights to be concerned about 531 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: my beard getting bolled, Like that's not. 532 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 3: A beard length. Then the fascist way. 533 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, then the then the fucking Nazis of one. It's 534 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: so like that this kind of like it's this. It's 535 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: this interesting mix of like true crime brain and tactical 536 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: brain that have like created something. And again I think 537 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: this is relative, you know, relating to the murder that 538 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: Cope is carried out, but like these two things cooking 539 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: together to this like you have to always be on 540 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: like be ready for danger, and also being ready for 541 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: danger means being perpetually armed and prepared to do violence. Yeah, 542 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: it's cool. 543 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 5: Yeah. 544 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 4: The story that went around at a different middle school 545 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 4: than mine that somebody had been kidnapped and it was 546 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 4: really scary, but they were okay, that was a lie 547 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 4: that didn't happen. 548 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 3: But everybody exciting. 549 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 4: But everybody knew about it and then liked and then 550 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 4: like into early adulthood, I brought it up to somebody 551 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 4: and they were like, that was literally just them trying 552 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 4: to scare the shit out of everybody to not talk 553 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: to strangers. 554 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, cool. 555 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 3: Wow, Well, what a great information what a great misinformation campaign? 556 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: Love that? Yeah, for us, it is great, Sarah, And 557 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about kind of the prehistory 558 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: of America's paranoia of getting kidnapped, Americans paranoia over getting 559 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: kidnapped by strangers. But when it comes to the modern 560 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 1: kind of kidnapping panic that I think played into this murder, 561 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: that that is sort of sweep it continuing to sweep 562 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: through social media right now. I can trace the origins 563 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: of it back to twenty fifteen, which is it when 564 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: rumors started spreading on so social media, namely Facebook, that 565 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: car thieves had cooked up a new tactic for like 566 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: getting people right. Text from one relevant story reads, car 567 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: thieves are always trying to find new schemes for getting 568 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: into your car to steal your valuables. You may have 569 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: heard reports of tech devices used to enter your car, 570 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: but some thieves are using a less intricate method. There 571 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: have been a rash of robberies using, of all things, 572 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: a penny or a nickel. How are they using a 573 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: coin to enter your car? Whether your car? Basically, the 574 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: idea is that like if you see a penny or 575 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: a nickel in like slid into the door handle of 576 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: your car. It's like evidence that a car thief is 577 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: trying to like break in, right, And they are. 578 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 3: So bored, aren't they? 579 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: They're bored in their dumb as fuck Sarah, Like it's 580 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: so fucking again, I'm a very paranoid person because people 581 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: like have attacked me and threatened to murder me. Right, Like, so, 582 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: like I have a grenade launcher sitting next that's not 583 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: part of the paranoia. That was just that's just a 584 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: recreational grenade launcher. But like, right, and I don't like 585 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: obsess over this kind of shit. It's because it's stupid, 586 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,239 Speaker 1: because like that's the initial version of this is that 587 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: like thieves were you know, if if there was a 588 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: coin in the door of your car, I meant that 589 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: a thief was trying to disable your remote locking systems. 590 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: This does not really work, right, Like you can't actually 591 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: disable a car's remote locking system like realistically this way. Yeah, 592 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: there were a couple of cars a while ago that 593 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: had like a specific sort of problem that allowed something 594 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: similar to this to work, but it was never like 595 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: a widespread thing. And because it like I don't know, 596 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: because that was such a silly thing. The the theory, 597 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. Conspiracy theory isn't what. I don't know 598 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: what to call these things. But so it starts off 599 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: with like this is evidence that someone has tried to 600 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: get into your car, and then it evolves to instead 601 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: of they're using sticking pennies or whatever in your car 602 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: to disable the locks, it's a way to mark which 603 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: vehicles have goodies so that they can steal from them later. 604 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: And like, why then just do it now? Why not? 605 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: Just breaking news again? I had my car broken into 606 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: not all that long ago, back in I mean this 607 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: was in San Francisco, but like a bunch of shit 608 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: jacked from it. Because that's say, if you park with 609 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: anything in a car in San Francisco and walk away, 610 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: your car will be broken into and within seconds. But 611 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: it's also like nobody's like marking your car for later. 612 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: They see shit, they break a window, they grab it right, 613 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: Like that's the way that. 614 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 3: Everyone has a master plan. Everyone is moriarty out there. 615 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like fucking rings of people marking. And it's 616 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: also like if you actually think logically about it, that 617 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: are they marking it and like following it home to 618 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: get your fucking purse, Like. 619 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 3: What, why that's shopping all day? 620 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: None of it makes any sense. And Snopes looked into 621 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: all of these kind of because there's a number of variations, 622 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: and they found no evidence that like this was like 623 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: people sticking pennies into car doors, was a factor in 624 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: any sort of crime. They talked to like service departments 625 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: at dealerships who were like, yeah, lock don't work that way. 626 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: They talk to police departments who are like, we've never 627 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: heard you know of any sort of tactics like this 628 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: being spread among car burglars. And in an article at 629 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: the time, they tied this myth back to certain myths 630 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: that had spread back in like the eighties and nineties 631 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: through what were then called Chaine letters. Sarah, again, I apologize, 632 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: but like you and I are both ancient, you know. 633 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 3: A certain age we make terrifying sounds when we got 634 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 3: up from squattish. 635 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: Yeah that's right. Yeah, we're a thousand years old. We 636 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: have seen the birth of time itself, and so we 637 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: remember Chaine letters. Like our gin Z listeners are like, 638 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: what the fuck is a chain letter? 639 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 5: Yeah? 640 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 3: And it's funny because again I don't remember receiving Shane letters, 641 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 3: but I remember them being something with like that everyone 642 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 3: made jokes about and that there's not a cultural literacy 643 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 3: around in the nineties. 644 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: I was, you know, even from like cause I was 645 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: mostly the same way where it was a thing that 646 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: like my mom and her sisters and stuff they would 647 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: talk about, my older cousins with talk about. I remember 648 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: one specific time we got a chain letter and it 649 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: was like shown to me because they were starting to 650 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: get rarer in the early nineties. It was shown to 651 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: me as like a look at this isn't this funny. 652 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: Look at this weird thing that we got, and we're 653 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: going to talk about what chain letters were, because really 654 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: what we're seeing when we look at a chain letter 655 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: is the birth of meme culture. It goes back surprisingly far, 656 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: but it all relates very directly to the shit spreading 657 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: on TikTok and Facebook. But you know what else relates 658 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: to misinformation spreading on the internet. Oh, advertising, because advertising 659 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: is what makes disinformation profitable. So Sarah Sophie, here's some ads. 660 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: Oh great, we're back and we're about to start talking 661 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: about chain letters. So chain letters, as I've talked about, like, 662 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: there's the I didn't really I never really thought about 663 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: this before. I started researching this. But the more I 664 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: got into it, the more I realized, like, oh, like 665 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: everything that's happened that's happens today, that's happened for the 666 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: last twenty years on the internet in terms of like 667 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: what we call meme culture was sort of preceded by 668 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: chain letters, and in fact an interesting aspect like the 669 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: chain letters are like they are letters that would back 670 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: in the day would arrive in your mailbox, and there 671 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: were a mix of like forward this, you know the 672 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 1: next ten ten people that you know, in order to 673 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: not get bad luck. Sometimes they were like here's a 674 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: story about like a bad thing that's happened, or like 675 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: here's a you know, a thing to be worried about. 676 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: You know, forward this so that your friends know about 677 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: this danger, about these crimes, you know about this thing 678 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: that murderers do or whatever. Like there's a variety of 679 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: different kind of like chain letters over the years. One 680 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:51,959 Speaker 1: of the things I didn't realize until I got into 681 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: this is that geneticists, like scientists and researchers teaching genetics 682 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: use chain letters in there because you can apply some 683 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: of the same algorithms that you apply to like calculating 684 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: mutations in genetics to the way chain letters alter over time. 685 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: There's a surprising amount of stuff about it. Like it's 686 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: a really good way to talk about because over time, 687 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: both like people would alter chain letters in order to 688 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: make them more relevant, but also just mutations would occur 689 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: because like a lot of chain letters were initially handwritten 690 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: and then they'd get mimeographed, and then after a time 691 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: it would get so messy that you'd type up a 692 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: fresh version and you'd introduce changes. So like it was actually, 693 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: like it is a pretty good way going over Like, oh, 694 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: here's eighty years worth of like related chain letters, and 695 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: we can sort of track the alterations over time in 696 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: the same way that we look at the way that 697 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: mutations get introduced into into a genetic sequence. I didn't 698 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: realize that it's not really relevant to the story, but 699 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of cool. 700 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 3: But it's so great. Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad to 701 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 3: know that. 702 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like a surprising amount of like scientific studies 703 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: on how durable it actually is to use chain letters 704 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: for this purpose. Yeah, cool stuff. So I found a 705 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: contemporary casual history of chain letters on Slate, and there's 706 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: a couple of other places that have done similar sort 707 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: of again casual histories, and they generally tie the birth 708 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: of the chain letter back to Europe, generally England and 709 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: the United States starting in the seventeen hundreds, right, kind 710 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: of when we both have the origins of a relevant 711 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: or of a reasonably reliable postal service, you know which 712 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: kind of starts to happen in the late seventeen hundreds, 713 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: and when we have a printing press so that people 714 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: like obviously, right, you can both print letters and copy 715 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: them sort of semi reliably, and you can send them places. 716 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: That said, again, this is what you get in the 717 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: casual histories when you really dig into it and you 718 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: find the chain letter like like the chain letter nerds, 719 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: I guess you'd call them the obsessives, they kind of 720 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: bristle ats starting to get in the seventeen hundreds. Argument 721 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: is that it goes back much much further, and this 722 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: is where things go off the rails a little bit. 723 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: The most detailed analysis of the history of this art 724 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: form that I have found comes from an independent researcher 725 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: named Daniel W. Van Arsdale. Starting in the nineteen nineties, 726 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: he started collecting huge numbers of chain letters and posting 727 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: them on his private website, which is a thing people 728 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: don't really have anymore. His website is down, but it's 729 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: still you can find it on the wayback Machine. And 730 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: it's very much like a late nineties, early two thousands, Like, 731 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: here's this maniac who is obsessed with chain letters, and 732 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: I'd agree that probably no one else in history ever was. 733 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: And he wrote thousands and thousands and thousands of words. 734 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: He read like God knows how many of these letters 735 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: he like categorized them and graphed them and anyway he 736 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: splits chain letters into He's probably the number one expert 737 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: on the concept of chain letters to ever stand for. 738 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: No one knows. I don't, Okay, someone probably knows. I 739 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: assume this man is dead. 740 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 2: I think I think it's Daniel Waybacks. 741 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: There's no way this guy is alive still, but I 742 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 1: love him. But this is what this is what social 743 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: media has taken from us, Right. You used to get 744 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 1: crazy people who would build websites dedicated to their obsession, 745 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,800 Speaker 1: and you could learn so much from those websites. And 746 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: now everybody just argues about race science on Twitter. It's 747 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: it's so much worse these today. Ted the Caver, you 748 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: know exactly exactly we used to have ted the caver God. 749 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: What a glorious time. So our buddy Van Arsdale in 750 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: his in his Maniac website splits chain letters into several 751 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: broad categories. One category is what he calls letters from Heaven. 752 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: These are letters that people claim were written or channeled 753 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: via God or an angel or some other divine being. 754 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: And like generally either like you know, this letter will 755 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,240 Speaker 1: protect you if you send it to X number of people. 756 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: These became particularly and in Europe, starting in World War 757 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: One and then again in World War Two. You would 758 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: send them to like there were primarily things like you'd 759 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: have families who were their kids were overseas and they 760 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: were worried about them, and they would get a letter 761 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: being like this will protect your son if you send 762 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: this to X you know number right whatever. Oftentimes there 763 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: was a kind of a scam involved, where like you 764 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't just have to forward the letter, you'd send a 765 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: donation to a central area and you'd forward the letter 766 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: to ten random people or whatever. And you know, folks 767 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: are superstitious. They're kind of when you're waiting for your 768 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: to know if your son got killed with the psalm, 769 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: you're kind of out of your mind a little bit, 770 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, like with worry. 771 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 3: That's a normal thing all consumer base. 772 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: Really Yeah, yeah, it's a great it's great business to 773 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,879 Speaker 1: be and is what I'm saying. The other major kind 774 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: of chain letter is the the good luck chain letter, 775 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: which is kind of a more secular version of the 776 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 1: letter from Heaven right where it's instead of like I'm 777 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: an angel and here's how you can protect your loved one, 778 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: it's more like this letter is good luck if you 779 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: replicate it and you pass it on, and sometimes also 780 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: if you send money to somebody. Right, these are kind of, 781 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: broadly speaking, what most chain letters, you know, for two 782 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: hundred years or so in the West like kind of 783 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: fell into. But Van Harsdale argues that the origin of 784 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 1: the chain letters starts a lot older than the printing press, 785 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: than the postal service, and even potentially than Christianity. One 786 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: example that he picks out that he this is what 787 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: he says, is like kind of the earliest example that 788 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,399 Speaker 1: you can find of chain letter like content is from 789 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,839 Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead. Bet you weren't 790 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: expecting us to go there? 791 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,919 Speaker 3: I never am. Yeah, it turns out Brendan Fraser had 792 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 3: it in his hands. 793 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: He did. He did, And like in Brendan Fraser's classic 794 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: film The Mummy, I am now going to read from 795 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: the Book of the Dead. 796 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,439 Speaker 3: So, oh boy, here's what's here to good run. 797 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: Here's a passage that Van Harsdale and I actually think 798 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: he's probably right about this, that he considers to be 799 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,959 Speaker 1: this is kind of an example of a precursor sort 800 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: of content to what you got with these Chane letters. 801 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,320 Speaker 1: The man who shall make a picture of the things 802 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: which are to the north of the hidden House of 803 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: the Twat shall find it of great benefit to him, 804 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: both in heaven and on earth. And he should who 805 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: knows it shall be among the spirits near Raw. And 806 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: he who recites the words of Isis and Sarah shall 807 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: repulse Epep and Amin Tet, and he shall have a 808 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: place on the boat of Raw, both in heaven and 809 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 1: upon the earth. The man who knows not this picture 810 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,760 Speaker 1: shall never be able to repulse the serpent nehra Rah. 811 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,879 Speaker 1: So it's like both you have to you know that 812 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: in order to avoid being, you know, punished by these 813 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: evil spirits, you have to recite these specific words, and 814 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: you have to share them with other people. Right, and 815 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: if you don't. Someone who hasn't seen this is vulnerable 816 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: to this, right you could. It's that same idea, right like, 817 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: where there's this here's this thing that you've now been 818 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 1: informed of, and you both have to be aware of 819 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: it and also spread it to other people otherwise you 820 00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: will suffer in some way. You know. 821 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 3: It's so fun how it's like the opposite of a 822 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 3: curse like we got in The Evil Dead, where it's 823 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 3: like don't read the words, and this is like read 824 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 3: the words, or read them tall your friends. 825 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: Please do read them to everyone, otherwise you're fucked. Yeah, 826 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: some serpent skun. I'm not an ancient Egyptian expert, but 827 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty obvious, like, oh, yeah, that is 828 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: there is an element of what people were getting with 829 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: these like chain letters that is present in this ancient 830 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: religious text and it. 831 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 3: Comment and subscribe. 832 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:33,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, like comment and subscribe to avoid the serpent nararrah. 833 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: So Van Arsdale likewise notes that some early Buddhist sutras 834 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: promise good luck or spiritual benefits for reproducing specific pieces 835 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: of text. Quote and this is from Van Arsdale's website. 836 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: The world's oldest example of printing are Dahrani or magical 837 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: incantations printed in Japan between seven sixty four and seven 838 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: seventy during the reign of the Empress Shatoku. A total 839 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: of over one million copies of or different Dahrani are 840 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 1: from the from the Great Durrani Sutra of the Spotless 841 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: and Pure Light were printed to be placed in one 842 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 1: million pagodas built at the command of Shautoku. In this sutra, 843 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 1: it has stated that if a person we were to 844 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: build several million small pagodas and place copies of Dorani 845 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: in them, that person's life would be lengthened, evil karma 846 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 1: would be expunged, and rebels or enemies would be vanquished. 847 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: So again, back in the day, you had to be 848 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: emperor to like indulge in in chain letter culture like 849 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: you know today you could just send a bunch of 850 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: letters to your friends and family, or you know, you 851 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,919 Speaker 1: could in the eighties when people sent letters. But back 852 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 1: in seven seventy you had to be the emperor, so 853 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: you could build a million pagodas to put the message in. 854 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,280 Speaker 1: Otherwise you're gonna get killed by rebels. 855 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 3: See an influencer do that? Today the million go to Chela. 856 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: Mister beast needs to make a million pagodas or he's 857 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: gonna get murdered. Yeah, and back in the so these Dhrani, 858 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: this is again a very early printing process. They would 859 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: have been mate printed using copper plates. And it's it's 860 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 1: light that prior to the advent of kind of traditional 861 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: printing presses, this sutra would have been among, if not 862 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 1: the most widely produced piece of text in history. Many 863 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: of these small pagodas that and this didn't just happen 864 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: in Japan. There were kind of variants of this all 865 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: throughout Asia, where like basically, if you're the king, you 866 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,240 Speaker 1: want to make a bunch of pagodas with a specific 867 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: message in them in order to avoid bad luck befalling you. 868 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 3: Right, incredible, Again, that's not that different from a chain letter. Really, 869 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 3: no more labor intensive. 870 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's much more labor intensive, although it is 871 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:38,360 Speaker 1: other people's labor. Right. I also find it interesting that, like, 872 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: again a lot of like modern chain letters were stuff 873 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: like you know, if you spread this, you know you 874 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: won't get fired, you won't lose your job, or you'll 875 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: get a raise at work or something, Whereas with emperors 876 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 1: it's like if you spread this, it is saying you'll 877 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: lose your You won't lose your job, but it's like 878 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: rebels won't overthrow you and murder you. 879 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 3: The stakes have decreased a little bit. 880 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: The stakes decreased slightly. That Yeah. The commonality here though, 881 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: is that it's it's kind of relying on the paranoia 882 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: and fear of a comfortable person generally that they will 883 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,320 Speaker 1: become less comfortable, you know, if like they don't follow 884 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: these instructions, and there's a degree of like follow like 885 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 1: this is a everyone's always especially like and this is 886 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: a thing that like, you know, we can talk about 887 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: what wealth does and doesn't do, but the way in 888 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: which the super rich act and the paranoia that is 889 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 1: kind of ever present in their lives is proof that 890 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 1: like when you're one of the people who like gets 891 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,239 Speaker 1: God's hits God's Great Roulette Wheel and winds up with 892 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars, you're still always worried that 893 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,280 Speaker 1: something is going to take it from you. And likewise, 894 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: just everyone feels that way, right, Like, if you're precarity 895 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,399 Speaker 1: is is a is an inherent aspect of humanity, right, 896 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 1: even if you're not in a precarious situation, just the 897 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: fear that like, you know, my kid could die oversee 898 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,400 Speaker 1: in the war, or I could get cancer or whatever. 899 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: Life is random and that's scary, and all of these things. 900 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 1: The kind of commonality between all of these things and 901 00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 1: chain letters is like it offers you sort of a 902 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: feeling of protection from the inherent randomness of life. Right yeah, 903 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: the first recognizable chain letters started to spread from the 904 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: fifteen hundreds on across Europe. It actually does go back 905 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: further than the casual slate histories of chain letters seem 906 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: to say. And there were basically ponzi schemes, right like 907 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: you would be asked to pay money to whoever's name 908 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,800 Speaker 1: was on top of the list in order to avoid 909 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: bad luck, and then you would like erase the name 910 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,720 Speaker 1: on the letter, usually the handwritten letter that you'd received, 911 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: and then like add your own name to the list 912 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,720 Speaker 1: and send it on to other people, and like, you know, honestly, 913 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,000 Speaker 1: that's how cryptocurrency pretty much works, right Like this this 914 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: is again these are not like we keep inventing fancier 915 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: ways to do the same thing over and over again. 916 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, to be fair, when you re skin an 917 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 3: old scam, people really get into it. 918 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it always works anyway. Uh. You know what else 919 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 1: is a long and successful scam? 920 00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:11,959 Speaker 2: Capitalism? 921 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, advertising capitalism. Whatever. 922 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 2: Here you go, man, I hope it's a raging coin ad. 923 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 1: So do I. Oh, we are back a good times, Sarah. 924 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,359 Speaker 1: Do you have any cryptos, you big crypto fan? 925 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,440 Speaker 3: I have zero crypto. My deal with new ideas is 926 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,759 Speaker 3: to wait them out for twenty years. Yeah, until the 927 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 3: storm has passed, and that really serves me. 928 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 7: Well. 929 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I took kind of a mixed version of it 930 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: where I didn't get any cryptocurrency, but I do have 931 00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 1: a full back tattoo of the bitcoin load. 932 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 3: I have a back tattoo of a board ape. So 933 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 3: you know. 934 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,440 Speaker 1: No, yeah, us, you have famously been been in on 935 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: the ground floor of the Board eight yacht club. Yeah, definitely. 936 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: They're doing wealthy. 937 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 3: Days, I will tell you though, speaking of new scams, 938 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,919 Speaker 3: and I have not really confessed this before. I did 939 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,239 Speaker 3: back in the Goop days follow twenty sixteen. We're all 940 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,400 Speaker 3: little nuts. I bought a jade egg and I used 941 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,920 Speaker 3: it and I liked it, and then I read about 942 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 3: how because they have a hole drilled in them and 943 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:41,239 Speaker 3: are porous, they can give you know, horrible bacterial infections 944 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 3: or whatever, and then I stopped using it. 945 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is why. You know, I have 946 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 1: some friends who are into sounding, which is a thing 947 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 1: if you have a penis where you like put a 948 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,920 Speaker 1: long and rigid rod into your penis. But they all 949 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: use like titanium rods and stuff, right or gla, you know, 950 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:01,800 Speaker 1: stuff that's that's non. 951 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 3: For us, which does what is that meant to do? 952 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 7: Though? 953 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 1: Look, I'm not into sounding personally. It's a thing you like, 954 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: people can look that up at home for themselves. But 955 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,360 Speaker 1: it apparently feels afternoon. 956 00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,600 Speaker 3: Okay, I would not guess that that felt good, But 957 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,759 Speaker 3: what do I know? I was really thinking when you 958 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 3: said that word that you like, lay your penis on 959 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,839 Speaker 3: a drum that someone is playing. But that's what that's 960 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,080 Speaker 3: more what I would do if. 961 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,440 Speaker 1: I I mean that that you were taking the sound 962 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:29,400 Speaker 1: part very literally. 963 00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:29,719 Speaker 2: Huh. 964 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: That's interesting. It's fascinating actually anyway, So just like crypto 965 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: evangelists have to had to pretend that they were building 966 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,040 Speaker 1: a new global currency system that was like more equitable, 967 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 1: you know, and that they were trying to take power 968 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,439 Speaker 1: from war mongering governments or whatever. Early scam chain letter 969 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: operators had to dress up schemes that were fundamentally about 970 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: taking advantage of greed as selfless acts of charity. And 971 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,919 Speaker 1: here's a quote from Van Harsdale's website. An eighteen eighty 972 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,760 Speaker 1: eight letter solicits dimes for the education of the poor 973 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: whites in the region of the Cumberlands. This letter states 974 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,040 Speaker 1: it as an adaptation of a previous solicitation and acts 975 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 1: that four copies be sent to friends for compliance. You 976 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: will receive the blessing of him who was ready to 977 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,359 Speaker 1: die for us. This is the earliest known chain letter. 978 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,640 Speaker 1: An eighteen eighty nine example let an American an American 979 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: college student solicited dimes and ten copies. This letter claims 980 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,880 Speaker 1: to be self terminating. Recipients were asked to increment a 981 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,319 Speaker 1: generation count at the top of the letter until it 982 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,960 Speaker 1: reached some preset maximum, at which time the chain was 983 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,320 Speaker 1: to stop. This practice continued at least through nineteen sixteen, 984 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,480 Speaker 1: but a few years after a chain letter was launched 985 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 1: only those circulated which had the inflated maxim We have 986 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,920 Speaker 1: two examples of a solicitation for used postage stamps to 987 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: build a children's ward in Australia. The first is from 988 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 1: nineteen hundred and is number one hundred and seventy three 989 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: of one hundred and eighty maximum. The second highly modified 990 00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 1: was still in circulation ten years later and is number 991 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,239 Speaker 1: three seventy five a full eighty maximum. Right, so you 992 00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,080 Speaker 1: see what people are doing where they're saying like this 993 00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,200 Speaker 1: isn't a scam, you know, will terminate this is certain 994 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,880 Speaker 1: point when the money has been raised. And there was 995 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: this understanding that if you made it feel like you 996 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: were closer to the end of the chain letters circulation, 997 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: that that would get more people to respond. So everyone 998 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 1: would just lie and like pretend like you were. You know, 999 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,399 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you're one seventy three of one 1000 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,919 Speaker 1: eighty or three seventy five of four eighty. But that's 1001 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 1: just the way the decided human beings. 1002 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,879 Speaker 3: Work, right, I mean NPR does that in the pledge drive, 1003 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 3: and it seems sort for them as well. 1004 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:25,640 Speaker 7: Yeah. 1005 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, again, all of these are examples of like like 1006 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,319 Speaker 1: long stage, like just this is just how humans be, 1007 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,200 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I bought the grenade launcher in my 1008 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 1: room because I was worried they were going to run 1009 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,359 Speaker 1: out of these grenade launchers. You know, it's an old 1010 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 1: police one. You can see them in. 1011 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 3: Riot respect police action. 1012 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 7: I did. 1013 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,000 Speaker 1: It's funny, this is unrelated. But because a grenade launcher 1014 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,640 Speaker 1: is not legally a firearm or any other kind of weapon, 1015 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,279 Speaker 1: they just FedEx them right to your door. It's like 1016 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 1: it's like by a wig or whatever, right, Like it's 1017 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,239 Speaker 1: completely uncontrolled. I want to get the. 1018 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,400 Speaker 3: Grenade launcher account for these ads. I mean, yeah, what 1019 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:08,560 Speaker 3: could be more convenient? 1020 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,759 Speaker 1: I would very happily sell grenade launchers on this show. 1021 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,279 Speaker 1: Nobody commits crimes with grenade launchers. You know, they're they're 1022 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:16,719 Speaker 1: purely the. 1023 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,839 Speaker 3: Stasive weapon to use it would know, right, you can't 1024 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 3: take one with you into an uber That's right, That's right. 1025 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. So anyway, this is this is this is my 1026 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,160 Speaker 1: free ad for grenade launchers. Early chain letters were made 1027 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,000 Speaker 1: by people who often legitimately wanted to spread a religious message. 1028 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,719 Speaker 1: Other examples of the art form seem to have been 1029 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: local kind of citizen journalism, almost right in an era 1030 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,720 Speaker 1: where newspapers weren't super common. People being like, hey, here's 1031 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,799 Speaker 1: this problem, you know, like we have poor whites in 1032 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 1: the Cumberlands. Let's raise money for them or whatever goodness. 1033 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,200 Speaker 1: But once the telegram and reliable postal service started to 1034 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,759 Speaker 1: enable the mass transmission of these letters for the first time. 1035 00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,359 Speaker 1: Things very quickly got out of hand and they came 1036 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,640 Speaker 1: purely vehicles of like separating folks from their money. And 1037 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,800 Speaker 1: this happened in the US and Britain before basically anywhere else. 1038 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 1: In London, a popular kind of chain letter was called 1039 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,560 Speaker 1: the peripatetic Contribution Box, and it was a mix of 1040 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: all these kinds of impulses. The basic idea was that 1041 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,000 Speaker 1: each person who received the letter would send a dime 1042 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,479 Speaker 1: to the originator and make three copies of the letter, 1043 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: asking friends to do the same thing. One of these 1044 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,720 Speaker 1: letters was sent by the Bishop of Bedford in eighteen 1045 00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,279 Speaker 1: eighty eight to raise money for a destitute women's own 1046 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,200 Speaker 1: during the Jack the Ripper slayings and so it it's 1047 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,760 Speaker 1: this kind of thing where like women are being murdered. 1048 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,319 Speaker 1: There's this. This is the first famous crime spree, right, 1049 00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 1: this is the first mass media crime spree, right, the 1050 00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,440 Speaker 1: first crime spree that like newspapers in like the early 1051 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,759 Speaker 1: news media have like adopted and are covering. And so 1052 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,959 Speaker 1: he's he's like hitching in order to try to raise 1053 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,480 Speaker 1: money for a women's shelter. He's basically hitching onto the 1054 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 1: fame of the jack the ripper slangings, and it helped 1055 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,319 Speaker 1: make it like you can contribute positively to solving like 1056 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: stopping these murders if you donate money and it works, 1057 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,799 Speaker 1: like this is the first example of that I've ever 1058 00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,600 Speaker 1: found of that kind of tactic working. It went so 1059 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,520 Speaker 1: viral that the bishop was receiving sixteen thousand letters a week, 1060 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,120 Speaker 1: like he couldn't deal with the mass of Like that's 1061 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,479 Speaker 1: a lot today, right, Like if you're getting you yeah, 1062 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:24,200 Speaker 1: like mister Beast couldn't pull that off, you know, Bishop Beast, Yeah, 1063 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,399 Speaker 1: Bishop Beast. And it's like, from what I haven't found 1064 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,200 Speaker 1: any evidence that this guy was a scammer. He was 1065 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,759 Speaker 1: just like, oh, people are concerned about poor women in 1066 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,080 Speaker 1: London because of these murders. I will use that concern 1067 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:37,960 Speaker 1: to try to like fund a women's shelter. And it 1068 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: just worked. And because it works so well, scammers see opportunity. 1069 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,800 Speaker 1: They're like, wait a second, all these people are sending 1070 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,000 Speaker 1: dimes to this bishop ass motherfucker because it's like raise 1071 00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:51,560 Speaker 1: money for this What if we send copycat letters claiming 1072 00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,920 Speaker 1: to be the bishop but with a different address. Perhaps 1073 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,399 Speaker 1: we can get some of those sweet sweet dimes, and 1074 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,160 Speaker 1: so like an unknown number of people make money off 1075 00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,160 Speaker 1: of this. But also just as an accident, other bishops 1076 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,680 Speaker 1: in towns that have similar names start receiving coins because 1077 00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,120 Speaker 1: like people are dumb, right, like yeah, wild. 1078 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:14,560 Speaker 3: Sit just to go to the artful dodger. 1079 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:20,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's quite quite fun. Across the pond. 1080 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,000 Speaker 1: American conmen and fundraisers alike also paid attention to what 1081 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,400 Speaker 1: was happening. They like, see this go down in London, 1082 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,839 Speaker 1: are like, well, shit, this seems like we can make 1083 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:33,320 Speaker 1: a lot of money. Here's a quote from an article 1084 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,360 Speaker 1: that article that Enslate that I was talking about earlier. 1085 00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:40,520 Speaker 1: During the eighteen nineties, chain letter fundraising proliferated for everything 1086 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 1: from a bike path in Michigan to a consumptive railroad telegrapher. 1087 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,000 Speaker 1: By July eighteen ninety eight, the New York World was 1088 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,880 Speaker 1: pre printing chain letter forms to fundraise for a memorial 1089 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,879 Speaker 1: for Spanish American War soldiers. Do not break the chain, 1090 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,920 Speaker 1: which will result in honoring the memory of the men 1091 00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,920 Speaker 1: who sacrificed their lives, it shided. Upon seeing what the 1092 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,520 Speaker 1: world's proprietor had rot his rivals at the New York 1093 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:06,520 Speaker 1: Sun were blunt in their assessment. Pulitzer is insane. Yeah, 1094 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,880 Speaker 1: they had good reason to scoff. Earlier that year, a 1095 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,560 Speaker 1: seventeen year old Red Cross volunteer in Long Island, Natalie Shank, 1096 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,000 Speaker 1: had contrived a chain to provide ice for troops in Cuba, 1097 00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,160 Speaker 1: causing thirty five hundred letters at a time to pour 1098 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,840 Speaker 1: into the tiny post office of Babylon, New York. We 1099 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,920 Speaker 1: did not consider what patriotic Americans are capable of, the 1100 00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,360 Speaker 1: girl's mother fretted to the breast. Yeah, this is like 1101 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,720 Speaker 1: a common thing with chain letters, like people starting them, 1102 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,640 Speaker 1: especially in the era where they weren't always common. Some 1103 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:35,480 Speaker 1: people would like start them to try to raise money 1104 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,600 Speaker 1: for causes. It's always this like, well, now suddenly we 1105 00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,680 Speaker 1: have created like a massive logistical problem for our town 1106 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,080 Speaker 1: in the postal service, and don't know what to do. 1107 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:48,680 Speaker 1: No one, this is like nineteen dot right, nobody can 1108 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,920 Speaker 1: handle thirty five hundred letters like. 1109 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,480 Speaker 3: It was like a Buster Keaton movie too, like the 1110 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,000 Speaker 3: mail clerk trying to keep up. 1111 00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have destroyed our town's ability to be connected 1112 00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:05,040 Speaker 1: to the because, as I mentioned earlier, chain letters made 1113 00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,160 Speaker 1: a huge comeback in World War One, both because of 1114 00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,320 Speaker 1: superstitious families who would do kind of anything in order 1115 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,400 Speaker 1: to feel like they were protecting their kid, and for 1116 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:18,280 Speaker 1: stranger reasons. Pro German Americans used chain letters to raise 1117 00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,000 Speaker 1: money for the war effort, and this was eventually the 1118 00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,480 Speaker 1: New York Times attacked this as a plot to clog 1119 00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,360 Speaker 1: the US mail. Sometimes you'll see people report that, like 1120 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,720 Speaker 1: there was a German scheme to clog the mail. For 1121 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,800 Speaker 1: what I've come across, I'm not sure if there was 1122 00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,080 Speaker 1: actually a plot or it's just that, like anytime one 1123 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,960 Speaker 1: of these went viral, it caused a logistical problem. It 1124 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,880 Speaker 1: was like a bomb going off in the post office. 1125 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,760 Speaker 1: By eighteen ninety nine, this had all become enough of 1126 00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,600 Speaker 1: a problem that the US Postal Service had declared dime 1127 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,840 Speaker 1: chain letters a violation of lottery laws, and they started 1128 00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,800 Speaker 1: regulating shit right where. They're like, this is this is 1129 00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,200 Speaker 1: a lottery, Like you're running an a legal lottery and 1130 00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,120 Speaker 1: you have to stop. We can't handle this. 1131 00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,280 Speaker 3: But what are the soldiers on their ice? 1132 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,360 Speaker 1: But what of the soldiers in their ice? The boys 1133 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:08,520 Speaker 1: in Cuba. Look, if you want to support our brave 1134 00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:14,000 Speaker 1: troops in Cuba, running that torture prison. Send fifty dollars 1135 00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: to me and Sophie. Sophie's what's what's our home address? 1136 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:19,320 Speaker 1: Do we have a PO box yet for people to 1137 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:20,880 Speaker 1: send us money for the boys in Cuba? 1138 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:28,480 Speaker 4: It's one eight five two h or never telling you. 1139 00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,880 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I guess Ron DeSantis won't get his ice 1140 00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,800 Speaker 1: as he as he as he does a war crime. 1141 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:40,320 Speaker 1: If he doesn't work, it's tragic. So eighteen ninety nine, 1142 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,960 Speaker 1: the postal services like this shit has to stop, like 1143 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,360 Speaker 1: we cannot handle all of the fucking dime cons you 1144 00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,320 Speaker 1: people are running. And so con artists got around this 1145 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,600 Speaker 1: by sending letters by hand, like dropping letters in mailboxes 1146 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,040 Speaker 1: and saying, don't send those through the postal service. It 1147 00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,680 Speaker 1: won't work the magic, you won't get the good luck. 1148 00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:00,760 Speaker 1: You need to send the dime and like drop it 1149 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,760 Speaker 1: off at this location. And this actually worked better than 1150 01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,480 Speaker 1: you'd think. One chain letter factory because this obviously, like 1151 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,200 Speaker 1: as with breaking into cars and shit, became the purview 1152 01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,640 Speaker 1: of organized crime, right because it's much more efficient in 1153 01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,640 Speaker 1: the capitalist sense if you like have an organization that's 1154 01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,800 Speaker 1: putting out chain letters and reaping money. One chain letter 1155 01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,520 Speaker 1: factory in Toledo, Ohio had one hundred and twenty five 1156 01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:25,919 Speaker 1: full time employees making these things when it was shut 1157 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,520 Speaker 1: down by the Feds by the mail cops. 1158 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:34,400 Speaker 3: Double job being a mail cop or being also being 1159 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,320 Speaker 3: a chain letter writer. I mean, were they writing them 1160 01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,360 Speaker 3: by hand? They have little typewriters. 1161 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:40,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was type would I mean, yeah, well, 1162 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,480 Speaker 1: I think it would have been time, although I think 1163 01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,800 Speaker 1: some of them they did do by hand just because 1164 01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,600 Speaker 1: like that was the thing that worked best, you know, 1165 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,400 Speaker 1: might have been. Now, as I've gone over this history, 1166 01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,840 Speaker 1: you've probably noticed that the history of chain letters this 1167 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,160 Speaker 1: isn't totally This seems pretty familiar as people who have 1168 01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,400 Speaker 1: like grown up on the internet, right, Like there's there's 1169 01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,520 Speaker 1: all of this. These these things are spreading in a 1170 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,439 Speaker 1: kind of a similar way to how disinformation and shit 1171 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:12,120 Speaker 1: and cons spread on the internet. Right. You start with 1172 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,240 Speaker 1: questionably accurate stories of disasters and tragedies around the world. 1173 01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,560 Speaker 1: Then you move to a call to action, either to 1174 01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,560 Speaker 1: like try to get money for something or to spread 1175 01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:27,040 Speaker 1: various beliefs about the world, and then you kind of 1176 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,120 Speaker 1: the way in which you tend to get people to 1177 01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,240 Speaker 1: spread stuff and get people interested is to share often 1178 01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:36,080 Speaker 1: false stories of horrific violence or stuff like kidnapping, right, 1179 01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,080 Speaker 1: shit that people are are inherently drawn to. And as 1180 01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:44,120 Speaker 1: a result of this, kind of the earliest sort of 1181 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:48,240 Speaker 1: chain letter meme that is kind of directly in the 1182 01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,919 Speaker 1: in the chain of evolution to the stuff that we've 1183 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,960 Speaker 1: been started this episode talking about, are chain letters that 1184 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,400 Speaker 1: would warn recipients about knife wielding murderers hiding in the 1185 01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,400 Speaker 1: backseats of cars to murder in of dying women. These 1186 01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,880 Speaker 1: started to spread in the eighties and nineties, and once 1187 01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:07,680 Speaker 1: once email became a thing, one of the first things 1188 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,960 Speaker 1: that would spread through email were copies of this specific 1189 01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,200 Speaker 1: chain letter. And I'm going to read one early modern 1190 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:16,800 Speaker 1: example of this letter. A friend stopped at the Pay 1191 01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,160 Speaker 1: at the Pump gas station to get gas. Once she 1192 01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,200 Speaker 1: filled her gas tank, and after paying at the pump 1193 01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,840 Speaker 1: and starting to leave, the voice of the attendant inside 1194 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,040 Speaker 1: came over the speaker. He told her that something had 1195 01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:27,880 Speaker 1: happened with her card and that she needed to come 1196 01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:30,880 Speaker 1: inside to pay. The lady was confused because the transaction 1197 01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,720 Speaker 1: showed complete and approved. She relayed that to him and 1198 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:35,840 Speaker 1: was getting ready to leave, but the attendant once again 1199 01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,160 Speaker 1: as urged her to come into pay or there'd be trouble. 1200 01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,760 Speaker 1: She proceeded to go inside and started arguing with the 1201 01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,240 Speaker 1: attendant about his threat. He told her to calm down 1202 01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,400 Speaker 1: and listen carefully. He said that while she was pumping gas, 1203 01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,720 Speaker 1: a guy slipped into the backseat of her car on 1204 01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,720 Speaker 1: the other side, and the attendant had already called the police. 1205 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,080 Speaker 1: She became frightened and looked out in time to see 1206 01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:56,480 Speaker 1: her car door open and the guys slip out. The 1207 01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,160 Speaker 1: report is that the new gang initiation thing is to 1208 01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,160 Speaker 1: bring a woman, bring back a woman and or her car. 1209 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,880 Speaker 1: One way they're doing this is crawling under women's cars 1210 01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:06,760 Speaker 1: where they'll pump it while they're pumping gas, or at 1211 01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:09,520 Speaker 1: grocery stores in the nighttime. The other way is slipping 1212 01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,640 Speaker 1: into unattended cars and kidnapping the woman. Please pass this 1213 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,040 Speaker 1: on to other women, young and old alike. Be extra 1214 01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,360 Speaker 1: careful going into and from your car at night. If 1215 01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:21,000 Speaker 1: at all possible, don't go alone. This is real exclamation point. 1216 01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:25,320 Speaker 1: Exclamation point. The messages number this is real exclamation That's 1217 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,560 Speaker 1: how you know it's real exclamation point. It then ends 1218 01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,120 Speaker 1: with the message number one always in caps. Lock your 1219 01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,400 Speaker 1: car doors even if you're gone for just a second. 1220 01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:38,160 Speaker 1: Number two, check underneath your car when approaching it for 1221 01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,200 Speaker 1: re entry, and checking the back before getting in. Number three, 1222 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:43,680 Speaker 1: always be aware of your surroundings and of other individuals 1223 01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,520 Speaker 1: and your general vicinity, particularly at night. Send this to 1224 01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,320 Speaker 1: everyone so your friends can take precaution. And guys, all caps. 1225 01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,040 Speaker 1: You tell any woman you know about this. Thanks. 1226 01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:55,560 Speaker 4: Oh my god, I just want to point out that 1227 01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,880 Speaker 4: the thiks is not in caplocks and I appreciate that. 1228 01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,840 Speaker 1: No, it's like you need it. Thanks hm. I do 1229 01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:08,439 Speaker 1: also again, Nowadays, because tactical influencers are such a thing, 1230 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,840 Speaker 1: men and women are being urged to be worried about 1231 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 1: kidnapping gangs. But back in the day this was a 1232 01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:17,080 Speaker 1: more genteel time. So men, nobody's gonna steal you in 1233 01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,600 Speaker 1: your car to get initiated into a gang. But you 1234 01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:21,560 Speaker 1: gotta warn the brons in your life. 1235 01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,760 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I love how you know, because obviously 1236 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:30,640 Speaker 3: the unspoken thing here is sexual menace in a you know, 1237 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:35,040 Speaker 3: in a racist way, because we're talking about gang members 1238 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:35,920 Speaker 3: quote unquote. 1239 01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:39,120 Speaker 5: But like, you gotta steal a woman in the gang, 1240 01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:44,160 Speaker 5: any woman, Yeah, any woman, any woman and her car 1241 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,360 Speaker 5: or maybe just her car. I don't know, like you know, 1242 01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,080 Speaker 5: just puts something and then it's like just thinking about 1243 01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:52,800 Speaker 5: being the woman at the gang initiation and he's like 1244 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:57,880 Speaker 5: five strangers, Like there's flow from the AMPM and here's 1245 01:04:58,040 --> 01:04:59,840 Speaker 5: Jessica from the craft store. 1246 01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so funn com and ground. 1247 01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:06,640 Speaker 1: See, we and Oregon were up until recently immune to 1248 01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:08,720 Speaker 1: this kind of thing because nobody gets to pay at 1249 01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,919 Speaker 1: the pump. You know. Gas station attendancy saved us from 1250 01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:13,640 Speaker 1: these kidnapping gangs. 1251 01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,120 Speaker 3: Were the safest people in America. Really, that's the right 1252 01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:18,640 Speaker 3: danger zone in these stories. 1253 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody gets kidnapped in Oregon because of the noble 1254 01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:28,160 Speaker 1: gas station attendant. So the Internet had two initial impacts 1255 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,840 Speaker 1: on how chain letter content spread. The first was that 1256 01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:33,760 Speaker 1: it allows a geometric expansion, obviously, and the number of 1257 01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:35,520 Speaker 1: people you can reach with a letter, right, there's just 1258 01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:39,200 Speaker 1: no comparison. The second is that it allowed exact copies 1259 01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:44,080 Speaker 1: to spread indefinitely, which put an end to researchers being 1260 01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,480 Speaker 1: able to like study heredity with these things to an 1261 01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:48,840 Speaker 1: extent or at least altered it, right, because it just 1262 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,640 Speaker 1: changes the way in which shit mutates. For a while, 1263 01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,040 Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties, it seemed as if the Internet 1264 01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:56,840 Speaker 1: might lead to a stagnation for this kind of message, 1265 01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,840 Speaker 1: but social media provided impetus for a new generation of 1266 01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,160 Speaker 1: to make slight adjustments on existing messages in order to 1267 01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:07,040 Speaker 1: build online followings or take advantage of roobs. We see 1268 01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,400 Speaker 1: this in pieces of pieces of this in QAnon and pizzagate. 1269 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:13,400 Speaker 1: The way conspiracy theories snowball over time due to the 1270 01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,520 Speaker 1: participation of huge numbers of people, and this brings me 1271 01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:20,760 Speaker 1: back to today's bullshit conspiracy theories about kidnapping. God knows 1272 01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,720 Speaker 1: how many iterations we've seen at this point, but the 1273 01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:26,560 Speaker 1: most pernicious family of myths all focus around the idea 1274 01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:30,320 Speaker 1: that kidnappers stage some sort of item in a victim's car. 1275 01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:32,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes the idea is that this is being done to 1276 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:34,960 Speaker 1: mark them. Other times it's that when the person stops 1277 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,120 Speaker 1: to remove the item, you know, a shirt that's been 1278 01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:38,520 Speaker 1: left on the hood of their car or a piece 1279 01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:41,520 Speaker 1: of cheese. In one version of it, criminals will leap 1280 01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:44,200 Speaker 1: out of a nearby video to vehicle to grab them 1281 01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:45,840 Speaker 1: right they're trying to distract it. You got to be 1282 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,120 Speaker 1: always be ready, keep a hand on your gun at 1283 01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,800 Speaker 1: all times, you know, if you see a shirt on 1284 01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:52,440 Speaker 1: your car, just start shooting. 1285 01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:57,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, cute for a later the America. 1286 01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:00,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how I That's what I always say. It's 1287 01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:03,880 Speaker 1: worth noting that the specific kind of kidnappings that Phoebe 1288 01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:06,480 Speaker 1: Copis and so many other people today are obsessed with 1289 01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:11,560 Speaker 1: do not happen essentially, right. Obviously, you can find freak 1290 01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:15,680 Speaker 1: examples of strangers being kidnapped by strangers, but nearly all 1291 01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,680 Speaker 1: trafficking victims and these are all wind up being trafficking 1292 01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,240 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. Right, that's why they're trying to kidnap women, right, 1293 01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:23,880 Speaker 1: you know, like that's that's how it always happens. The 1294 01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,720 Speaker 1: vast majority of trafficking victims know their attacker. They are 1295 01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,640 Speaker 1: usually related to their attacker, right, or to their trafficker, 1296 01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:36,480 Speaker 1: I should say, trafficking people being forced into slavery or 1297 01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:40,520 Speaker 1: what like slavery, particularly like sex slavery. This is not 1298 01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:43,680 Speaker 1: a thing that happens that strangers due to strangers in 1299 01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,360 Speaker 1: the United States. This is a thing that like parents 1300 01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,320 Speaker 1: due to their kids, or like a guardian. Well, it 1301 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:53,680 Speaker 1: is usually either a parent who's trafficking the kid for money, 1302 01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,000 Speaker 1: generally as a result of like a drug addiction, or 1303 01:07:56,120 --> 01:08:00,720 Speaker 1: like a single parent who someone comes into their life 1304 01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:04,040 Speaker 1: and then traffics their kid. It's nearly always someone that 1305 01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,480 Speaker 1: the child knows. Right, That's just like the way that 1306 01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:09,840 Speaker 1: trafficking works, and it's the same thing with like when 1307 01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:13,640 Speaker 1: adults are trafficked, it is nearly always it's either people 1308 01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:16,240 Speaker 1: who are migrants coming to this country being trafficked in 1309 01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:19,160 Speaker 1: order to like work on farms and shit or otherwise 1310 01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:24,000 Speaker 1: do labor for very little to know money, or it 1311 01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,040 Speaker 1: is when it's sex trafficking, it's like people being trafficked 1312 01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:32,360 Speaker 1: by you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, by family members. The vast 1313 01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:36,680 Speaker 1: majority of trafficking victims are adolescents or teenagers. Sixty to 1314 01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:40,120 Speaker 1: sixty seven percent of trafficking victims in the US are 1315 01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:44,040 Speaker 1: fifteen to seventeen years old. A huge number of them 1316 01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:48,720 Speaker 1: are LGBT or gender non conforming because, like one thing 1317 01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:52,559 Speaker 1: that often brings people into trafficking, they are young, they 1318 01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,880 Speaker 1: do not have resources, like financial resources. They are kicked 1319 01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:58,200 Speaker 1: out of their homes because they are queer, and they 1320 01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:00,439 Speaker 1: are then forced at some point into the set trade 1321 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,679 Speaker 1: by somebody that they trust, right, Like, that is when 1322 01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,960 Speaker 1: it happens. This is how it actually occurs statistically. 1323 01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,200 Speaker 3: No, Robert, the market value of middle aged women is 1324 01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:12,080 Speaker 3: four thousand dollars a pound. 1325 01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,439 Speaker 1: No, No, it's all like forty five year old women 1326 01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,880 Speaker 1: getting kidnapped at Target. That's how it happens. Well, but 1327 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:21,439 Speaker 1: you could also see, like, right, it's the kind of 1328 01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:23,240 Speaker 1: people who fall for this shit are the kind of 1329 01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:27,760 Speaker 1: people who believe in like grooming conspiracy theories overwhelmingly, and 1330 01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,439 Speaker 1: they don't want to hear No, it's the queer kids 1331 01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,400 Speaker 1: that you're spreading conspiracies about are the ones in danger 1332 01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:36,240 Speaker 1: of being trafficked. They want to hear like, no, I'm 1333 01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:38,880 Speaker 1: I'm in danger. I have a reasoned, like all of 1334 01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:43,080 Speaker 1: this fear that is ever present in me me, yeah, yeah, 1335 01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,760 Speaker 1: it's these dangerous Yeah, these dangerous looking kids who are 1336 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:48,320 Speaker 1: going to threaten me. The fear that is ever present 1337 01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:51,880 Speaker 1: in my life, because human beings more or less can't 1338 01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,400 Speaker 1: exist without anxiety has a cause. And it's the dangerous, 1339 01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, weird looking kids around me who are going 1340 01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:02,599 Speaker 1: to kidnap me by putting cheese on my car. And 1341 01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,599 Speaker 1: it's one of those things we started this episode talking 1342 01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:07,960 Speaker 1: about Phoebe Copas. But if you do what I have 1343 01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:11,040 Speaker 1: been doing, and you spend hours and hours coming through 1344 01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:15,280 Speaker 1: viral Facebook and TikTok posts about like kidnapping conspiracy theories. 1345 01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,120 Speaker 1: In every one of them, you will find people talking 1346 01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,759 Speaker 1: about their guns. A representative example comes from an article 1347 01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:25,080 Speaker 1: I found twenty seventeen article published by Channel fourteen News, 1348 01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,040 Speaker 1: an Amarillo, Texas station, and the title of the article 1349 01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,040 Speaker 1: was woman find shirt on car, warning goes viral and 1350 01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:34,800 Speaker 1: obviously one of these And right in the I found 1351 01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:37,439 Speaker 1: a Facebook post that was like twelve thousand shares and 1352 01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,640 Speaker 1: one of the first responses was a user going, I 1353 01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:43,280 Speaker 1: keep my pistol in grabbing distance everywhere I go, Like, no, 1354 01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:45,439 Speaker 1: people are not getting traffic this way. 1355 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,080 Speaker 3: What is the shirt going to do to you? Aside 1356 01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:51,040 Speaker 3: from remind you of your dead lever? Jake Schillen Hall. 1357 01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. The idea again is that like you put these 1358 01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:58,120 Speaker 1: kidnapping gangs are putting shirts, and then you'll take your 1359 01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:00,080 Speaker 1: hand off your gun to go put the take a 1360 01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:02,240 Speaker 1: shirt off your car, and that's when they jump out 1361 01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:03,080 Speaker 1: and get you. 1362 01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:03,280 Speaker 7: You know. 1363 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:07,200 Speaker 3: That is the thing about these so stupid, right, is 1364 01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:10,040 Speaker 3: that it's like you'll you'll in the split second year distracted, 1365 01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:13,640 Speaker 3: which you can't afford to lose, they'll snatch you. And 1366 01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,200 Speaker 3: the idea of having to be that hyper vigilant. Yeah, 1367 01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:20,120 Speaker 3: it's fascinating how we're just like selling PTSD basically, Yeah, 1368 01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:22,320 Speaker 3: it's we know it all too. 1369 01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,400 Speaker 1: Well and you like it's. One of the things that 1370 01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:28,400 Speaker 1: makes this pernicious is that, like, no one will tell 1371 01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:31,240 Speaker 1: you need to be less aware out in public. Right, 1372 01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:33,320 Speaker 1: No one's going to say, like, when you get traveled 1373 01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:35,519 Speaker 1: to a new city and hop in the uber, maybe 1374 01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:37,880 Speaker 1: just zone out on your phone. Right, everyone will say, well, yeah, 1375 01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:41,040 Speaker 1: it's good to be, you know, aware, But the version 1376 01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:44,080 Speaker 1: that gets transmitted primarily is like, you need to always 1377 01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:47,519 Speaker 1: be hyper vigilant because you are permanently in danger of 1378 01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:52,720 Speaker 1: being kidnapped and sold into fucking taken ass movie slavery. 1379 01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:56,200 Speaker 3: Right, I always be ready to stop someone with Dudley force. Yeah, 1380 01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:57,000 Speaker 3: a fun way to live. 1381 01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, you need to be the Liam Neeson you know, 1382 01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:05,519 Speaker 1: to protect yourself from weirdly Algerian kidnapping gangs. If I'm 1383 01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:06,760 Speaker 1: remembering that movie. 1384 01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:12,479 Speaker 3: Properly knows yea Mason who we now know once well 1385 01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:14,040 Speaker 3: you know, if you know, you know. 1386 01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:19,760 Speaker 1: If you know you know? Anyway, although we can talk 1387 01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,719 Speaker 1: about his appearance in Atlanta. But this is all outside 1388 01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:27,880 Speaker 1: of the point. We're gonna keep talking about, specifically how 1389 01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:31,720 Speaker 1: these kidnapping conspiracy theories have started and mutated, and how 1390 01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:35,080 Speaker 1: this all ties into some other particularly toxic aspects of 1391 01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:37,760 Speaker 1: American culture. By the time these episodes come out, I 1392 01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:42,120 Speaker 1: will have an article up on my substack, Shatterszone. You 1393 01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:46,040 Speaker 1: can just find it by typing that in about specifically 1394 01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:51,040 Speaker 1: the way in which kidnapping and trafficking as key phrases 1395 01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:54,240 Speaker 1: have become like super reliable ways to go viral. On 1396 01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:59,519 Speaker 1: TikTok there's a lot of like weird fuck, So there's 1397 01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:03,439 Speaker 1: this fucking weird. I don't know how to describe this, 1398 01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:05,800 Speaker 1: but I find it deeply unsettling. One of the first 1399 01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,479 Speaker 1: things I found and I was looking to Phoebe Copis. 1400 01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:10,559 Speaker 1: I decided, after I was reading about her, I want 1401 01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,400 Speaker 1: to see what people are like saying about this on TikTok. 1402 01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,240 Speaker 2: Oh, does that really scary video you sent me? 1403 01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:18,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? I find this This is like a type of 1404 01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,400 Speaker 1: content where they they've got to take a picture of 1405 01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:24,040 Speaker 1: her and they use it to make an AI video 1406 01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,200 Speaker 1: of her. Of like Phoebe the woman who murdered that 1407 01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:30,639 Speaker 1: guy and have her relating the story of her killing 1408 01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:33,360 Speaker 1: a guy in like an AI version of her voice 1409 01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,919 Speaker 1: and an AI version of her face speaking. It is horrible. 1410 01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:40,760 Speaker 1: It's like, Sarah, I'm not a moral panic person. I 1411 01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:43,400 Speaker 1: don't think TikTok is in. I don't think TikTok's any 1412 01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:46,559 Speaker 1: more toxic than any other form of social media. But 1413 01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,439 Speaker 1: I also think all social media should be made illegal 1414 01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:52,360 Speaker 1: and the people who run these companies pushed into the sea, 1415 01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:53,160 Speaker 1: like I hate it. 1416 01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,720 Speaker 3: I hate it all too much technology. I think that 1417 01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,639 Speaker 3: was the last thing I needed to hear before moving 1418 01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:00,000 Speaker 3: in next door to JD. Sally. 1419 01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:04,519 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yes, yes, yeah, let's all build. Look, if 1420 01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,960 Speaker 1: you're listening to the show, buy a cabin in rural Montana, 1421 01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:10,880 Speaker 1: learn how to Okay, Actually this is I'm doing a 1422 01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:13,519 Speaker 1: unibomber thing again. See, this is why, this is why 1423 01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:16,800 Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta stop, Sarah. You gotta you got 1424 01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:19,440 Speaker 1: anything to plug besides being the unibomber. 1425 01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:23,800 Speaker 3: I mean that's really the main project I'm working on. 1426 01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:26,479 Speaker 3: I do a show called You're Wrong About We've talked 1427 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:29,280 Speaker 3: about human trafficking on it, and I it is like, 1428 01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:32,840 Speaker 3: I don't know, it's incredible to me the magic that 1429 01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:36,840 Speaker 3: that word has, the spell that it casts over people. 1430 01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:38,880 Speaker 3: It's like and it feels like it's taken the place 1431 01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:43,080 Speaker 3: that the phrase white slavery had and like I don't 1432 01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:45,800 Speaker 3: know this this time one hundred years ago. 1433 01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:50,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, and white slavery is I didn't get into this 1434 01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:52,400 Speaker 1: for it for this, but like, yeah, if we were 1435 01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,680 Speaker 1: to like really dig into that history, because like that 1436 01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:58,160 Speaker 1: was in the eighteen hundreds and stuff like, it was 1437 01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:02,240 Speaker 1: like a very easy way to to get people riled up. 1438 01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:08,560 Speaker 1: Like it's all like shady fucking yellow journalism types have 1439 01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,080 Speaker 1: always known that, like, yeah, if you make white people 1440 01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,200 Speaker 1: feel like they're about to get abducted off the street, 1441 01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:16,320 Speaker 1: because they're always I think a lot of it goes 1442 01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:19,600 Speaker 1: does go back to you know, you think about like 1443 01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:23,120 Speaker 1: the emperor in Japan, like he's like, wow, I was 1444 01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:26,920 Speaker 1: born to rule this land, but I also still, despite 1445 01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:29,519 Speaker 1: all my power in my armies, feel scared all the time. 1446 01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:31,559 Speaker 1: And that's just like a thing that people feel. I'm 1447 01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:33,400 Speaker 1: going to go make all of these pagodas to like 1448 01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:35,519 Speaker 1: spread this because I feel like if I spread this, 1449 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,000 Speaker 1: like this book says, if I spread this specific chunk 1450 01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,320 Speaker 1: of text, then nothing bad will happen to me. The 1451 01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:44,240 Speaker 1: rebels will never come into my palace or whatever. And 1452 01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, then it gets translated to like, wow, I'm 1453 01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:49,360 Speaker 1: a white person in the eighteen nineties. Things are great, 1454 01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,960 Speaker 1: we roll the entire world. But yet I'm scared all 1455 01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:55,240 Speaker 1: the time. There must be gangs of brown people waiting 1456 01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:59,120 Speaker 1: to kidnap me. And then you know, today it's too Yeah. Yeah, 1457 01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:02,960 Speaker 1: I'm a sub urban American, you know, the most fortunate 1458 01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:06,160 Speaker 1: kind of person who has ever existed in the history 1459 01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:10,960 Speaker 1: of the planet. Right, I am unfathomably safe and secure. 1460 01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,200 Speaker 1: Yet I'm scared all the time. There must be a 1461 01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:17,040 Speaker 1: reason for it, and it turns out that's the most 1462 01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:19,880 Speaker 1: profitable thing to to cash it on. 1463 01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:22,640 Speaker 3: It's I really, it's I have not thought of it 1464 01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:26,120 Speaker 3: this way before. But I love your summary that like 1465 01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:29,040 Speaker 3: people just feel scared because that's what we are and 1466 01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:31,400 Speaker 3: what victual we are. We feel right, and of course 1467 01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:34,120 Speaker 3: we are, like we were born to be scared. It's 1468 01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:36,400 Speaker 3: how we've survived this line to the extent that we 1469 01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:41,040 Speaker 3: have to just be like overly prone to freaking out 1470 01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:43,960 Speaker 3: and then and then the but then it's like, once 1471 01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:47,679 Speaker 3: you're in a place of relative prosperity and safety. Right, 1472 01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:51,360 Speaker 3: it becomes like a vestigial or like there's things to 1473 01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:53,639 Speaker 3: feel scared about, you know, and he personally whatever you're 1474 01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:56,479 Speaker 3: doing with your life. But like that, this is also 1475 01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:01,400 Speaker 3: why we have like our great summer movies where it's 1476 01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:03,400 Speaker 3: like living a normal life and then you have to 1477 01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:07,000 Speaker 3: fight a dinosaur or a magic truck or whatever else 1478 01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:08,800 Speaker 3: Steven Spielberg has thought up for us. 1479 01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:12,840 Speaker 1: I do love that you gave Steven Spielberg credit for 1480 01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:16,800 Speaker 1: the Stephen King book about the possessed evil truck. 1481 01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:19,760 Speaker 3: Oh wait, think a different truck. Yeah, they both they 1482 01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:20,840 Speaker 3: each got a truck. 1483 01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,639 Speaker 1: Ah. The Stevens, they've got they've got a direct line 1484 01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:26,360 Speaker 1: to our Amigdala's The Stevens. 1485 01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:26,680 Speaker 7: We do. 1486 01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:33,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, a good stuff. I mean, I feel like again, 1487 01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:36,720 Speaker 1: for every like powerful impulse in human beings, there's like 1488 01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:39,360 Speaker 1: the good version of tweaking it and the evil version. 1489 01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:42,800 Speaker 1: The evil version is obviously spreading conspiracy theories about kidnapping. 1490 01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:45,679 Speaker 1: The good version is being Stephen King and just doing 1491 01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:49,360 Speaker 1: mountains of cocaine and writing novels that people love. 1492 01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:51,759 Speaker 3: And some of which you don't remember evidently. 1493 01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:52,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. 1494 01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:54,479 Speaker 3: And I was thinking about this recently with regards to 1495 01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:57,760 Speaker 3: the Satanic Panic, because you know, I think about a 1496 01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:02,679 Speaker 3: lot and how it feels like one of the aspects 1497 01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,000 Speaker 3: of the Satanic Panic is that if you have a 1498 01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:10,759 Speaker 3: religion that forbids you horror media, you can't watch horror movies, 1499 01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:15,000 Speaker 3: you can't consume scary stuff except you know, yeah, if 1500 01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:17,479 Speaker 3: you just can't have horror fiction, then like it's going 1501 01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:19,479 Speaker 3: to show up in your religion. It's going to show 1502 01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:22,200 Speaker 3: up in chick tracts and sermons and your beliefs about 1503 01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:24,879 Speaker 3: what's actually happening, because it has to come up somewhere. 1504 01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:30,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is why, like the horror movie, like, people 1505 01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:33,240 Speaker 1: who are actually into horror, right, tend to be like 1506 01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:36,880 Speaker 1: the healthiest folks because they find it out healthy. Yeah. 1507 01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:39,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love horror and it certainly makes me much 1508 01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:41,120 Speaker 3: healthier than I would be otherwise. 1509 01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:44,880 Speaker 1: This is why John Carpenter is the ideal person, right, Like, 1510 01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:46,760 Speaker 1: that's there, you go, perfect man. 1511 01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:50,080 Speaker 3: That's why Sophie and I are seeing The wicker Man 1512 01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:52,439 Speaker 3: later today. Yes, the paragons of health. 1513 01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:55,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, paragons of health. And you can be a paragon 1514 01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:58,679 Speaker 1: of health if you listen to Sarah Marshall's podcast. You're 1515 01:18:58,720 --> 01:18:59,640 Speaker 1: wrong about. 1516 01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:00,960 Speaker 3: It's sure you will be. 1517 01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:03,280 Speaker 1: You will be. That will solve your problem. 1518 01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:04,800 Speaker 3: People listen to it. 1519 01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:07,960 Speaker 1: All of the fear that you is ever present in 1520 01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:11,320 Speaker 1: your life. It'll go away the instant you start listening 1521 01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:14,840 Speaker 1: to Sarah's podcast, so True. Check that out. Another way 1522 01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:17,760 Speaker 1: you can make the ever present feeling of anxiety that 1523 01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,880 Speaker 1: is really just the death motive in your life never 1524 01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:24,599 Speaker 1: leaving you is by subscribing to Sophie what is our 1525 01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:26,360 Speaker 1: thing called? Where people don't get ads? 1526 01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:28,800 Speaker 4: You can subscribe to Cooler z of Media are a 1527 01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:33,840 Speaker 4: every subscription channel exclusively an Apple podcast Android version coming 1528 01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:34,599 Speaker 4: very soon. 1529 01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone who gives us, however many dollars a month 1530 01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:42,600 Speaker 1: that costs your son won't die at the soalm. You 1531 01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,000 Speaker 1: know that that's the only way to protect him. If 1532 01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:47,840 Speaker 1: you've got a son, those German machine guns are aiming 1533 01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:50,280 Speaker 1: at him right, this is the only way to save him. 1534 01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:51,599 Speaker 1: And give us three dollars. 1535 01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:55,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, do not let her eat that cheese and warn 1536 01:19:55,479 --> 01:19:55,920 Speaker 3: her and. 1537 01:19:56,080 --> 01:20:00,880 Speaker 4: Warn her about that car cheese. 1538 01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:05,479 Speaker 1: The episode that's part one. 1539 01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:09,360 Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 1540 01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:13,000 Speaker 2: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia 1541 01:20:13,160 --> 01:20:16,400 Speaker 2: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 1542 01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:18,880 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.