1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 2: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. Okay, so, a little over 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 2: a decade ago, Candy Ween found herself at her doctor's 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: office for what she thought was a routine checkup. But 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: routine it was not. Her blood pressure clocked in at 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 2: two hundred over one ten. It's what's referred to as 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 2: hypertensive emergency and leaving it untreated, Carol, can lead to 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: a stroke, heart attack, organ failure, and even death. 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 3: It's unbelievable. She was ordered immediately to go on bed 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 3: rest for three days, start xanax and blood pressure medication. 12 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: Given that she had a. 13 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 3: Lot of work to do, she was reluctant to go home, 14 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 3: and that she found was the issue. It was the 15 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 3: beginning of understanding what would become an incredibly important chapter 16 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 3: in her life. And I have to say, getting ready 17 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 3: for this, this book, we've been kind of passing it 18 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 3: around to colleagues and just talking about it and stress 19 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 3: and kind of managing work. 20 00:00:57,960 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 2: Well, we got doctor Candy Ween's with us right now. 21 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: Senior fellow and director at the Master's in medical Education 22 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 2: program at the University of Pennsylvania. She spent many years 23 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: since then researching burnout and stress resilience. Doctor Ween's welcome. 24 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: Before we get to that doctor's appointment that was so pivotal, 25 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: pivotal in your life, take us earlier to your childhood, 26 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: because you've got a really interesting story and it's certainly 27 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 2: related to your book. 28 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, and thanks for having me on. Yes, 29 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: So my story is maybe perhaps unique to everyone else's story, 30 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: but we all have a story about our childhood and 31 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: the ways in which we learned how to deal with 32 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: stress and the ways that we learned how to cope 33 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: and potentially what might make us vulnerable today. So in 34 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: my case, I was raised on an Indian reservation by 35 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: a single mom. My parents divorced when I was five. 36 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: I had a number of adverse childhood events when I 37 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: was younger, which contributed to some of the things that 38 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: I experienced. But one of the things that is really 39 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: foundational to my pattern of coping with stress is that 40 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: I grew up very much as an insecure overachiever. Insecure 41 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: meaning that because we lived on welfare and Medicaid and 42 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: food stamps and often suffered from food insecurity. I was very, 43 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: very insecure about my future, my financial future, and I 44 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: was aware enough to know that if I needed to 45 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: work hard to break the cycle of poverty in my family. 46 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: And so I knew that I wanted to go to college. 47 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: I was quite motivated intellectually to want to learn, but 48 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: I wasn't in the right circumstances. Long story short, I 49 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: moved in with my dad when I was twelve, and 50 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: the conditions changed. I went from getting almost absent school 51 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: because I wasn't in the right environment to getting straight 52 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: a's living with my dad, and so that started another 53 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: pattern for me, which was this need for external validation. 54 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: I really I thrived getting recognition for the hard work 55 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: that I was doing. I learned that the harder I worked, 56 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: the more I got recognized for my work, and that 57 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: set me on a path to potentially overachieve my way 58 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: through things, including having three jobs in college while I 59 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: was going to school full time paying for it myself. 60 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: All of that set into motion this pattern of overworking 61 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: and trying to protect myself from going back to the 62 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: life that I once lived when I was younger. So 63 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: that's all of what kind of contributed to this workaholic 64 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: kind of approach that I had to work. And then 65 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: when I had that life threatening health crisis that woke 66 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: me up in twenty eleven, that was really the result 67 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: of me working on overdrive almost all the time. For me, 68 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: and I hear from many of the people that I 69 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: interviewed today, burnout was the baseline. We didn't use the 70 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: word burnout a whole lot back in the nineties and 71 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: early two thousands, but I think that's what I was experiencing. 72 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: I just wasn't aware exactly what it was and what 73 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: it was doing to me. 74 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 3: You know, It's interesting. We live in a culture and 75 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 3: I feel like I grew up in a family where 76 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: it was like, yeah, work hard, that's what it's supposed 77 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 3: to be at You're a workaholic. It's a good thing, Like. 78 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: Like that was a thing until like a few years ago. 79 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: Well that's a really good point, right, And I do 80 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: wonder you know, we thought with COVID that maybe we 81 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 3: were thinking balance, Yeah, look at what we can do. 82 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 3: We can actually have a better life. I want to 83 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 3: get to what you know, part of your title is 84 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: about emotional intelligence and helping us out when it comes 85 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 3: to being burned out. What exactly is emotional intelligence? 86 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, emotional intelligence is a set of competencies that have 87 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: to do with our awareness of ourselves, mostly our emotional 88 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: self awareness, but includes other awareness aspects, the ability to 89 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: regulate or manage ourselves, our behaviors, our thoughts, our emotions, 90 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: as well as our ability to understand the social environment 91 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: that we work in. Like so, for example, understanding the 92 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: politics of the team that I might be working on 93 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: or within my organization. But it's also being able to 94 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: work very effectively in that social or in that political environment. 95 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: So it's self awareness, self management, and then social awareness 96 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: and relationship management. 97 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: What about the idea of I don't know, perfection being 98 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: the enemy of good, Like the idea that when something 99 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: is done, it's done. And I think that that's what 100 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: a lot of people struggle with at the workplace. I 101 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: think is and it really can burn people out because 102 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 2: it takes so much time and energy. Is these incremental 103 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: changes that are not that important to a certain project 104 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: that people are working on. 105 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, so perfectionism is one of the traps that I 106 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: write about. I write about a number of self inflicted 107 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: stress traps also known as thinking traps or in the sciences, 108 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: we call them cognitive distortions. It's meaning that we think 109 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: about something that causes us to overwork or causes us 110 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: to put more effort into something than we need to. 111 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: Perfectionism is one, Imposter syndrome is another. Having overly high 112 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: expectations of ourselves, having overly expectations of other people, even 113 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: being overly engaged in our work. All of these things 114 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: are stories or assumptions that we operate under and that 115 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: cause us to feel more stress or amplify the stress 116 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: that is caused by whatever we're experiencing and sets us 117 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 1: up to be prone for burnout. 118 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 3: What's the balance, though, because man, you're going to have 119 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 3: First of all, media is a stressful industry. The clock 120 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 3: is ticking, You got to hit deadlines. It's just the 121 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,239 Speaker 3: way it is. Stuff is thrown at you last minute, 122 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 3: or news develops, and you just got to kind of 123 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: roll with it. I would say that there's a fair 124 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 3: amount of us who kind of thrive on that, and 125 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 3: that's part of the fun of the industry. Having said that, 126 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 3: what's the balance between a stressful situation that leads to 127 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 3: burnout to Yeah, you're going to have days where you're 128 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 3: stressed and that's just part of a job and a 129 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 3: work life. So how do you kind of get your 130 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 3: head around what's good and what's bad. 131 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, in professions like yours, where you have 132 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: pretty much high intensity almost all the time and a 133 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: lot of things coming at you unexpectedly, that those type 134 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: of jobs do require quite a bit of recovery time. 135 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: Recovery in the form of sometimes it's micro recovery, so 136 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: shorter breaks throughout the day, reconnecting with your family or friends, 137 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: even for a couple of minutes, if you can, going outside, 138 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: whatever it is for you that helps to renew your 139 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: energy levels and your spirit. For other people, it's taking 140 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: extended periods of time. So if you think about recovery, though, 141 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: one of the things I encourage people to focus on 142 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: is when you're recovering, watch what you're doing to comfort 143 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: yourself versus really renew yourself. Comfort yourself as in like 144 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, binging on some program or eating junk food, 145 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: or doing something that feels good in a moment but 146 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily really renew your energy levels, like a good 147 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: night's sleep with an hour or two of deep sleep. 148 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 3: So you know, I recently said to somebody, I feel 149 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 3: like I walk in the door and I'm always behind, 150 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 3: and they're like, that's a good thing. They mean to 151 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: get lot going on. Having said that, I do think 152 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,119 Speaker 3: about leadership and all of this and how a leader 153 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 3: needs to look at Yeah, hey, gang, we're going to 154 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 3: have a tough week. We just need all hands on deck, 155 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,559 Speaker 3: if you will, Versus wait a minute, this is too 156 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 3: much for my team and they're going to break. So 157 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: advice to leaders are what they need to know. We 158 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 3: have about a minute or so left. 159 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I call it the sweet spot of stress. We 160 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: all need to know what our personal sweet spot of 161 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,119 Speaker 1: stress is. And for a leader recognized for the team, 162 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: how much can we push the team to really perform 163 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: under intense conditions without them slipping over into the distress 164 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: zone where it's going to negatively affect their performance. So 165 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: it means tuning into your employees having open conversations around 166 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: stress levels are going to escalate in these high intensity periods, 167 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: and we're going to take recovery breaks together. We're going 168 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: to do things to support each other so that we 169 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: don't all slip into distress at the same time and 170 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: potentially burn out. 171 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: Hey, doctor, weens, we do have time for one more question. Now, 172 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: what's your strategy, I mean, what do you do? How 173 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: are you going to you know, decompress after the work 174 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 2: day this weekend. 175 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: Oh that's a great question. Yeah. So I haven't seen 176 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: my son for a couple of days. He's been busy 177 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: with soccer in school, and even though I've had a 178 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: lot going on, I am just so excited to see 179 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: him and hug him. Honestly, like that's one of the 180 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: things that renews my spirit. And just being able to 181 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: look him in the eye and hear about his week. 182 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: That to me reminds me of why I do the 183 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: work that I do and helps me just really renew 184 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: my spirit. 185 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 3: Tim and I were just talking and we said, that's 186 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: the one thing like in the middle of the day 187 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 3: off like all of a sudden, you know, your kid calls, 188 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: or there's pictures or something you look at, like it 189 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 3: really kind of recharges you in a big way. 190 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: Nice reminder of like really important stuff out there. 191 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 192 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: Absolutely, you gave us some great respective. 193 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: You gave us some great things to think about as 194 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 3: we go into the weekend. Doctor Wiens, thank you so much. 195 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: Doctor Candy Weens, Senior Fellow and director of the Masters 196 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 3: in Medical Education program at the University of Pennsylvania, joining 197 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: us there from Philadelphia. Her new book it is called 198 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 3: Burnout Immunity. How emotional intelligence can help you build, resilient 199 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: and heal your relationship with work.