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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know

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Speaker 1: something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's

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Speaker 1: probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die

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Speaker 1: before you die, then you can really live. There's a

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Speaker 1: wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do because there was

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Speaker 1: no Internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel

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Speaker 1: like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat.

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Speaker 1: I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second. And

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Speaker 1: right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope

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Speaker 1: encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,

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Speaker 1: and the world around you. Welcome to you need therapy. Okay, guys,

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Speaker 1: we are back for the fourth and final installment of

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Speaker 1: our series on the Four Horsemen of the Relationship Apocalypse.

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Speaker 1: We have been doing this series. I've been dragging it

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Speaker 1: out because you know, I just haven't wanted to end,

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Speaker 1: and also I've had some really good episodes that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to sprinkle in between. But we've been doing this

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Speaker 1: for a couple months. We're Finally here the final week,

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Speaker 1: the fourth Horseman. If you are new here and you're like,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about, well, you should go back

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Speaker 1: and listen to the first episode. We've covered the three

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Speaker 1: horsemen that come before, and again these are four patterns

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Speaker 1: of managing conflict and things that come up in conflict

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Speaker 1: that have a big part and play a big part

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Speaker 1: in if a relationship is going to last or if

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Speaker 1: the destruction of its existence is on the horizon. So

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Speaker 1: let's recap. We on week one did an overview of

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Speaker 1: the four horsemen and John Gottman, who created these and

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Speaker 1: came up with these, and then we talked about the

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Speaker 1: first horseman, criticism, which is an attack on your partner's character.

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Speaker 1: The antidote is the way to, you know, heal that

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Speaker 1: or reverse that. The antidote is a gentle startup. And

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Speaker 1: then the second horseman we have is contempt, and that

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Speaker 1: is belittling someone. It involves name calling and you know,

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Speaker 1: just being really mean on purpose. And the antidote for

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Speaker 1: that is building a culture of appreciation and respect. And

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Speaker 1: then we had the third horseman, which was defensiveness, which

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Speaker 1: is self protection in the form of righteousness or proclaiming

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Speaker 1: being a victim. Victimhood an attempt to avoid any perceived

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Speaker 1: attack on you, and the antidote for that is just

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Speaker 1: simply taking responsibility. And now we have made it to

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Speaker 1: the final horseman, the fourth horseman. Stonewalling. So what is stonewalling?

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Speaker 1: You guys are asking, you're wondering. Maybe you have read

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Speaker 1: ahead and you know and you just want to hear

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Speaker 1: me say it. What it's stonewalling? Well, by the name,

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Speaker 1: you can somewhat take a pretty good guess. It's as

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Speaker 1: if you are metaphorically building a wall between you and

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Speaker 1: your partner. And sometimes you will see this defined as

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Speaker 1: a refusal to communicate or cooperate. But it really is

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Speaker 1: not that simple, although if you're looking at it, or

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Speaker 1: sometimes even if you are experiencing it, it might seem

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Speaker 1: that simple. Might seem that way, and often this comes

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Speaker 1: as a response to contempt. It's a way to kind

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Speaker 1: of shut down when you're feeling flooded, overwhelmed and just

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Speaker 1: stuck in a conflict. So this is when your partner

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Speaker 1: withdraws from the conflict and they just stop responding. It

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Speaker 1: can look a couple different ways. It's not just sitting

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Speaker 1: next to somebody and not talking to them and just

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Speaker 1: ignoring them and giving them the silent treatment. Sometimes you

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Speaker 1: can withdraw through becoming distracted by something like a chore,

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Speaker 1: maybe doing something around the house. Maybe you start looking

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Speaker 1: at your phone, maybe you start paying attention something that's

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Speaker 1: on TV, something like that, and this, like the other horsemen,

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Speaker 1: can become a natural, unconscious just habit. It just happens

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Speaker 1: you're in the mode of conflict or this is how

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Speaker 1: you do, this is the dance you do, and it's

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Speaker 1: just the next thing that comes. If the conflict always escalates,

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Speaker 1: it will just become somebody's way of dealing with being overwhelmed,

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Speaker 1: and the overwhelmed that is associated when you are, like

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Speaker 1: I said, feeling stuck, unheard, invalidated, and I also mentioned

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Speaker 1: a second ago, I use the word flooded, that this

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Speaker 1: happens when a person gets flooded, and feeling flooded means

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Speaker 1: that we kind of enter with not kind of, we

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Speaker 1: do enter a state where we physiologically do not have

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Speaker 1: the ability to engage in rational mind and we're not

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Speaker 1: using logic. That part of our brain has kind of

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Speaker 1: shut off, and our threat defense system kicks in, and

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Speaker 1: that's where stonewalling comes in. And you enter that free state.

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Speaker 1: So when you think of the threat defense system, the

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Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system that happens when we see or feel

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Speaker 1: or experien it is danger. We perceive danger the ways that

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Speaker 1: we move through that fight flight or freeze, and stonewalling

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Speaker 1: is a way to kind of freeze. So when we

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Speaker 1: experience flooding. It says if someone pulled the fire alarm

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Speaker 1: inside of your body, which can be very helpful. If

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Speaker 1: you are, say on a hike, and you start being

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Speaker 1: chased by a bear, your body will shoot you into

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Speaker 1: a state that offers the energy the hormones that you

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Speaker 1: need to escape the situation. Although I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to run from a bear. I was about

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Speaker 1: to say, like you get adrenaline and then you get

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Speaker 1: to run away from the bear. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to run from the bear. Maybe I think

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Speaker 1: one of the things you do is you act really

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Speaker 1: tall and big. But you know what this is not.

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Speaker 1: I'm not giving you survival strategies for the wilderness, So

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Speaker 1: don't take my word on that. You can look that up.

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Speaker 1: But this idea still plays out right. So this is

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Speaker 1: really crucial in that threat defense system if there really

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Speaker 1: is a threat to your safety in that way, we

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Speaker 1: do need that to kick on. But when you're in

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Speaker 1: a conversation with your partner and the alarm starts sounding off,

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Speaker 1: we lose the ability at that point to effectively communicate

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Speaker 1: with them. And we don't necessarily need to run away

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Speaker 1: from partners in that state. We need to find a

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Speaker 1: way to effectively communicate so we can hear each other

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Speaker 1: and manage the conflict we're having. So when we're stonewalling,

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Speaker 1: we're entering into that free state, and we can sometimes dissociate,

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Speaker 1: which you're very much not aware of when you do that,

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Speaker 1: or we can just shut down to avoid further persecution

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Speaker 1: or just feeling unheard or feeling hurt. And I read

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Speaker 1: in an article on the Gotment Institute website, which I

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Speaker 1: highly recommend that website for all of the resources. They

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Speaker 1: have so many blogs and just different pieces of information,

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Speaker 1: and that's where you can get all their books. So

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Speaker 1: I highly recommend that website. But I was reading an

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Speaker 1: article that I found on there, and the person that

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Speaker 1: wrote this article said, when you were stonewall, and you're

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Speaker 1: essentially the possum playing dead, not because you're manipulative, but

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Speaker 1: because it's your body's response to a perceived life and

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Speaker 1: death situation, just like a possum place dead when you

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Speaker 1: know they want to find safety. And I really like

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Speaker 1: this way of viewing it because it highlights a huge misconception.

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Speaker 1: Stonewalling is not so much a stubborn choice someone makes

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Speaker 1: to prove a point or get their way. Although it's

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Speaker 1: not a habit that tends to be helpful in resolving

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Speaker 1: the conflict, it's also not something people are generally doing

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Speaker 1: because they in quotes choose it. They're doing so to

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Speaker 1: protect themselves. And remember, this isn't happening when somebody has

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Speaker 1: access to their very logical decision making skills part of

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Speaker 1: their brain. It's an animal instinct, it's a survival instinct.

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Speaker 1: So something that might be coming up in your head.

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Speaker 1: I know this has come up in my head before,

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Speaker 1: and I even use this term earlier. You might be thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: and this kind of sounds like the same as the

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Speaker 1: silent treatment. Is that what that is? It's a silent treatment.

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Speaker 1: Stonewalling is stonewalling the silent treatment. And the answer is

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Speaker 1: a little complicated because they can look the same. There

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Speaker 1: are differences. They're both not very helpful. They both cause

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Speaker 1: a lot of frustration on both sides, I believe, and

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Speaker 1: they can become habitual. I think of the silent treatment

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Speaker 1: as more of a deliberate choice by the person doing

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Speaker 1: the silent treatment. I can remember the silent treatment being

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Speaker 1: something that I did this, and my friends loved to

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Speaker 1: do this to each other when we were in like

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Speaker 1: elementary school in middle school, and sometimes we would I'm

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Speaker 1: laughing because I'm thinking about the times that I remember

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Speaker 1: this happening, and we would go weeks without speaking to

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Speaker 1: each other, and then we would forget what we were

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Speaker 1: even mad about, and then we would just stay mad

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Speaker 1: because we can't remember. But then there would be the

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Speaker 1: embarrassment of like, well, I know that I was mad

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Speaker 1: for a reason, and then you know, it's really hard

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Speaker 1: to resolve the conflict at that point. But it's something

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Speaker 1: that we did as kids in spaces where our relationships

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Speaker 1: weren't We didn't have the skills and we didn't have

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Speaker 1: the brain capacity, and we hadn't learned enough about healthy

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Speaker 1: relationships and communication and all that to really move through

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Speaker 1: having your feelings heard or being upset about something, and

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Speaker 1: so we would choose the silent treatment to get our

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Speaker 1: way or get attention, or prove a point. The silent treatment,

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Speaker 1: when I think of those situations, was not used as

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Speaker 1: a way to disengage from an overwhelming situation. It was

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Speaker 1: more of a punishment to prove a point, like I said,

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Speaker 1: and it was a very conscious and intentional refusal to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge or speak to the person that I was giving

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Speaker 1: that to. What it's interesting though, is our choice to

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Speaker 1: use the silent treatment can actually cause the other person,

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Speaker 1: involve the person weren't giving the silent treatment to to

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Speaker 1: become flooded themselves. So we're not being flooded, and then

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Speaker 1: we stonewall, we cause flooding towards that other person because

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Speaker 1: of the nature of how silent treatment can just like

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Speaker 1: ca person, for lack of a better term, to feel

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Speaker 1: crazy because you just won't speak to them, and there's

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Speaker 1: no there's no rationalizing with that person at that point

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Speaker 1: because what you've chosen to do is irrational, and so

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Speaker 1: that flooding can still happen, and then that can come

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Speaker 1: out in different ways for that person. But the person

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Speaker 1: doing the silent treatment isn't doing that out of being flooded.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time, they're doing that deliberately on purpose,

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Speaker 1: they had made that choice, and I think just an

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Speaker 1: easy way to say the difference is the silent treatment

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Speaker 1: appears very much more intentionally hurtful, while stonewalling can be hurtful.

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Speaker 1: It's more of a frantic, yet outwardly facing calm, but

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Speaker 1: inwardly facing frantic effort at self preservation and survival. And

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Speaker 1: it can be argued, I think, depending on who you're

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Speaker 1: talking to, and you know, I'm not completely sold on

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Speaker 1: this either, but it can be argued that silent treatment

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Speaker 1: is also an indicator of flooding for that person, the

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Speaker 1: person that's doing it. And I can hear and understand

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Speaker 1: the argument for this, because when the brain thinks rational

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Speaker 1: on somebody wouldn't choose to ignore someone to get what

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Speaker 1: they would want. But I still think the jury can

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Speaker 1: be out on that because there is a lot of

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Speaker 1: nuance here, and I think somebody can still deliberately choose

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Speaker 1: that out of a manipulative, immature decision making situation. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter

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Speaker 1: as much because the consequences and the solution to both

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Speaker 1: silent treatment and stonewalling are going to be basically the same.

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Speaker 1: I used to be a pretty classic stonewaller in conflict,

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Speaker 1: and maybe it came from my practice of the silent

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Speaker 1: treatment as a child's I don't know. I think I

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Speaker 1: had more to do with the relationship I was in.

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Speaker 1: But when I was in a certain relationship years ago

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Speaker 1: at a partner who would very very often use criticism

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Speaker 1: and contempt when we would have conflict, and I would

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Speaker 1: get to a point where I knew nothing I said

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Speaker 1: would make a difference, and I would feel very much

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Speaker 1: trapped in the conversation with no way out. Even if

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Speaker 1: I were to agree with this person, there would still

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Speaker 1: be something wrong with me agreeing with them, And so

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Speaker 1: what I started to do is I would just not speak.

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Speaker 1: I would become very quiet. I remember trying to process

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Speaker 1: what to say, but also feeling paralyzed as if I

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Speaker 1: couldn't come up with anything. And then, of course this

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Speaker 1: made my partner more outraged, and things would escalate, and

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Speaker 1: then he would kind of come at me louder and

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Speaker 1: stronger and more hurtful, which would then cause more franticness

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Speaker 1: inside of me and more chaos inside of me, and

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Speaker 1: so I would just completely shut down in order to

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Speaker 1: escape that situation. And it's important to note here that

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Speaker 1: I am not somebody who is generally at a loss

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Speaker 1: for our words. But during these conversations, it started to

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Speaker 1: feel like nothing I said mattered or anything I said

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Speaker 1: would make things worse. So it was my way of

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Speaker 1: diffusing the situation, although not one time was it successful,

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Speaker 1: because it created another issue, part of the issue in

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Speaker 1: that relationship, which it did end, And you could have

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Speaker 1: probably predicted that if you saw the way we fought.

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Speaker 1: There was no rationalization with my partner either, so when

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Speaker 1: I calmed down, my partner still was not able to

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Speaker 1: calm down unless hours, any sometimes even days had passed,

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Speaker 1: So no matter what I did, I could get out

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Speaker 1: of the situation. But I wasn't going to change my

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Speaker 1: partner's behavior, and I couldn't do that, and that essentially

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Speaker 1: led to part of the demise of the relationship. And

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Speaker 1: now I still get a little jumbled. Before this relationship,

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Speaker 1: this really wasn't a thing that would happen in real

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Speaker 1: conflict between people outside of me giving the silent treatment

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Speaker 1: to my friends in middle school. But now when I

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Speaker 1: have conflict, I still can get a little jumbled, and

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Speaker 1: part of that comes from just the trauma of some

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Speaker 1: of those arguments and how long it lasted, and it

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Speaker 1: was very pervasive. But now that I'm in a healthy relationship,

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Speaker 1: the difference is even when I do get jumbled and

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Speaker 1: I am at a loss for words or I don't

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Speaker 1: really know what I want to say, I'm able to

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Speaker 1: ask for space and time to process my thoughts. And

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Speaker 1: I'll often say to Patrick, who's my fiance, just still

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Speaker 1: weird for me to say we got engaged like three

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, or anybody I'm talking to, I'm able to

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Speaker 1: say something like, hey, I'm going to respond, I just

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Speaker 1: need a minute to process and decide what I want

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Speaker 1: to say. Just give me a second. And when you're

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Speaker 1: in a healthy relationship, most of the time that's going

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Speaker 1: to be met with understanding and patience and care. And

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Speaker 1: that was not the case before. If I would have

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Speaker 1: said that, he would have probably just filled the space

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Speaker 1: of me thinking of brating me even more with probably

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Speaker 1: more contempt. But like I said in the beginning of

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Speaker 1: this episode, this often is a response to a lot

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Speaker 1: of that contempt that then floods the body and it

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Speaker 1: makes you feel like there is I mean, there is

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Speaker 1: an emotional threat there. It makes you feel like I

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Speaker 1: got to get out of this. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: run from this bear, but I'm gonna shut down so

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Speaker 1: I can at some point kind of like pretend that

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Speaker 1: this isn't happening if you're actually dissociating. But also it's

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Speaker 1: like almost like waving that white flag of there's nothing

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Speaker 1: I can do to make this better at this point,

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Speaker 1: so I'm just going to be quiet and I hope

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Speaker 1: that at some point this just passes. I know sometimes

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Speaker 1: that was the thought in my head, even though the

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Speaker 1: part of me that was rational that wasn't there at

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Speaker 1: that moment was saying, that's not going to help solve this. Now.

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Speaker 1: Like I said in the beginning, and like I said

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Speaker 1: on every one of these episodes, there's a good part. Yes,

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Speaker 1: this might be something that is prevalent in your relationship,

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Speaker 1: but there's also an antidote, and if both partners are

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Speaker 1: willing to experiment and play with and invite in this antidote,

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Speaker 1: you can move through and learn how to manage your

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Speaker 1: conflict better. Because again, none of this is about getting

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Speaker 1: rid of conflict. That's not why I'm even focusing on that.

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Speaker 1: We're really focusing on how it is managed we're all

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Speaker 1: going to have conflict. It's very helpful. It's very healthy

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Speaker 1: to have conflict. It actually helps you learn about your partner.

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Speaker 1: It's a way to express needs. It's great. We have

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Speaker 1: to have healthy ways of managing it. And so if

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Speaker 1: you would like to manage it well, you can invite

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Speaker 1: in the antidote for the fourth horseman stonewalling. And so

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Speaker 1: before we get to that, I'm going to review the

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Speaker 1: antidotes that I reviewed at the top of this episode

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Speaker 1: for criticism, the gentle startup for contempt, building a culture

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Speaker 1: of appreciation and respect, defensiveness, accept responsibility, and now stonewalling.

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Speaker 1: Instead of withdrawing to avoid the conflict, the antidote is

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Speaker 1: to self soothe. Now, if we want to start to

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Speaker 1: break the cycle of getting to the flooded state just

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Speaker 1: on its own and then engaging in stonewalling, it could

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Speaker 1: be helpful to look at some of the warning signs

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Speaker 1: that show up when someone's beginning to be flooded. And

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Speaker 1: these are coming straight from Love as an Action Verb,

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Speaker 1: a book by Laura Silverstein, and I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: read through some of the things that show up when

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Speaker 1: flooding is is about to take place or you're actually

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Speaker 1: in it, or it's creeping up on you. So your

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Speaker 1: heart rate begins to rise. You might start holding your breath,

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Speaker 1: your breath changes it's your regular You might start taking

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Speaker 1: light breaths. You aren't able to listen as well as

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Speaker 1: you usually do. Feels like there's almost like something like

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Speaker 1: a roadblock that gets in your ears that you can't

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Speaker 1: stay with what your partner's saying, or kind of like

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Speaker 1: track getting confused and having trouble finding words. Voice or

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Speaker 1: tone gets louder and in has an edge on it.

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Speaker 1: You feel defensive, right, so that third horseman comes in

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Speaker 1: and you're defensive on what's being said straight from the gate.

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Speaker 1: Your muscles tense. You feel kind of like that crazy

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Speaker 1: feeling of deer in the headlights, of like oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what to say, like what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: Which is very kind of confused, shocked, kind of like empty.

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Speaker 1: Your fists might clench, your teeth might grind, your facial

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Speaker 1: muscles might constrict your jaw or your brow might tighten,

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Speaker 1: your shoulders tighten a lot of times, you might start

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Speaker 1: to feel even nauseous or lightheaded. So if you notice

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Speaker 1: any of those happening, especially a combination of them. It

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Speaker 1: could be a good time to call a time out

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Speaker 1: so then you can bring your arousal back down to

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Speaker 1: a baseline and bring that calmness and that safety in

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Speaker 1: where then your logic brain and your rationale can kick

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Speaker 1: back on. It could also be a really good time

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Speaker 1: when you notice some of those to say, hey, I'm

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Speaker 1: starting to feel really tense. I notice that my jaws clenching,

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Speaker 1: or I'm not able to listen very well right now,

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Speaker 1: where my chest is really tight right now, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like this is just escalating. So why don't we

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Speaker 1: take a twenty minute break and let's meet back in

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Speaker 1: the kitchen at five point forty five. And the thing

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Speaker 1: here is you're asking like, hey, why don't we do this?

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Speaker 1: And you're asking for your partners like, hey, can we

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Speaker 1: agree on this? Even if your partner refuses, you're allowed

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Speaker 1: to take that break. You can say something like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I see that you don't want to do what I propose,

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Speaker 1: and you kind of want to finish this now. I

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Speaker 1: know what I need is that to have a productive

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Speaker 1: discussion with you, I'm gonna need to take a break

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Speaker 1: so I can just calm my body down and clear

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Speaker 1: my head. For a little bit. So I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: do that and I'll be back here in twenty minutes,

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Speaker 1: and I hope that you're here and we can continue this.

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Speaker 1: Then that might even force your partner, because you're disengaging,

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Speaker 1: might force your partner to engage in some self soothing,

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Speaker 1: even if they didn't initially agree to it. Right because

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Speaker 1: you've gone off, maybe they start to like write their

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Speaker 1: thoughts down, or they start to pace, or they start

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Speaker 1: to anything. All of those things can help them just

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Speaker 1: self soothe, calm back down, take a break from the

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Speaker 1: back and forth, and just sit or move if that's

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Speaker 1: what's helpful too. I think with self soothing what's really

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Speaker 1: helpful and those really tense conversations, because what we do

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Speaker 1: is with a lot of the things that I said,

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Speaker 1: you can see our muscles tense up, our neck titans,

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Speaker 1: we scrunch our brows or jog gets tight. We need

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Speaker 1: to loosen up and release some of that and that energy.

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Speaker 1: And so something that is very helpful is just shaking

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Speaker 1: our body out, Like whether it's I'm sitting here as

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Speaker 1: I'm saying this, I'm just like shaking my hands back

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Speaker 1: and forth or doing some light stretches, touching your toes,

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Speaker 1: maybe doing a couple of jumping jacks, honestly can be

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Speaker 1: really helpful just to loosen everything up. So that's something

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Speaker 1: that you can do when you go and you take

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Speaker 1: your break. And when I say self soothing is the antidote,

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Speaker 1: it can be whatever works for you. I'm not giving

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Speaker 1: you a list to choose from necessarily, because self soothing

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Speaker 1: can be different for all kinds of people. I always

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Speaker 1: say something that self soothing is something that just like

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Speaker 1: feels good. It just kind of like allows you to

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Speaker 1: take that big exhale and let that breath that you've

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Speaker 1: been holding on too tight just release. So it can

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Speaker 1: be you lying in your bed comfortably, just lying there,

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Speaker 1: maybe listening to a really calming song. It can be

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Speaker 1: going and standing in front of the freezer and feeling

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Speaker 1: that rush of coolness on your face. It can be

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Speaker 1: washing your face. It can be you know, taking a shower.

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Speaker 1: It can be doing a couple of laps walking around

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Speaker 1: the house. It can be getting in your favorite yoga pose,

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Speaker 1: doing some cat cows, just something that allows you to

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Speaker 1: again take that big exhale so you can step back

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Speaker 1: into that place where all of your brain gets to

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Speaker 1: be accessed, not just the part that's like all our

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00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 1: energy has to be focused on staying alive. Because while

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Speaker 1: it feels like you and your body might be telling

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Speaker 1: you threat threat threat threat threat danger danger danger, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna die, you're not gonna die. You just don't have

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Speaker 1: the ability for your brain to let you know that

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Speaker 1: at that point. So we got to bring that back

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Speaker 1: in because there's different rules, guys. There are different rules

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Speaker 1: when you're on a hike, when there's a bear chasing you,

399
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Speaker 1: and when you're just out there and there's some like

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Speaker 1: cute squirrels jumping around. There's some different rules, and we

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00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,919
Speaker 1: need if we are in the space where there's just

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Speaker 1: some squirrels, we need the rules that apply to just

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Speaker 1: the squirrels. Don't need the lack of rules that apply

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00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 1: when they're a bear chasing you. So there you have it,

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Speaker 1: the fourth horsemen of the relationship Apocalypse. And again I

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Speaker 1: said earlier, the Gotman website search Gotman Institute on Google

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00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 1: or wherever you search things, and I can link their

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00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: website in the show notes for you too, so you

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Speaker 1: can just click on it. I highly recommend it. There's

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Speaker 1: tons of resources, tons of articles, tons of blogs, tons

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00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: of books, all of their books. I haven't read them all,

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Speaker 1: but I imagine if John Gotman has something to do

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Speaker 1: with it, they're going to be good. So I highly

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Speaker 1: recommend if you want more of this because I gave

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Speaker 1: you very kind of beginner level condensed versions of all

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Speaker 1: these things. Go there and that's a great starting place.

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Speaker 1: And you can actually even search too. If you're looking

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Speaker 1: for a therapist or a relationship therapist, you can be

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Speaker 1: trained by the Gotmans and the Gotman Institute. There's a

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Speaker 1: specific training that couple therapists and family therapists go through,

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Speaker 1: and so you can look for that. If you are

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Speaker 1: noticing some of these things come up in your relationships,

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Speaker 1: you can look for that when you're looking for a therapist,

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00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: and you can say like, hey, do you know about this,

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00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 1: or do you know somebody that does know about this

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Speaker 1: and use this as a guide to some of their practices.

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Speaker 1: So can't recommend it enough. Thank you for being on

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Speaker 1: this journey with me. I've gotten some good feedback that

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Speaker 1: this was really helpful information, although some of it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just like these big, huge eye opening revelations, These really simple,

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Speaker 1: digestible things that John Gotman has come up with can

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Speaker 1: be very very very transformative, really, so I've gotten some

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Speaker 1: good feedback. I'm glad that you guys have enjoyed this.

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Speaker 1: I've loved refreshing myself with it as well. So there

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Speaker 1: you have it wrapped up on the Four Horsemen. I

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Speaker 1: will be back with you guys on Wednesday for Couch Talks.

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Speaker 1: If you are not familiar with what that is is

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Speaker 1: the bonus episode of You Need Therapy, where I answer

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00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: questions that you guys send to me and you can

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Speaker 1: send those to Katherine at You Need Therapy podcast dot com.

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Speaker 1: So you guys can send me questions about anything and

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Speaker 1: then I might choose it and answer it on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I always keep them anonymous, so you don't have to

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Speaker 1: worry about that. You can feel very safe sending in

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00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: your questions. But if you have any specific to this episode,

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00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: any of the Four Horsemen episodes, or just anything, send

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Speaker 1: them my way. You can follow me at cat dot

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Speaker 1: defada and at You Need Therapy Podcasts on Instagram, and

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Speaker 1: I hope you guys have the day you need to have.

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Speaker 1: I will be back with you Wednesday for Cash Talks