Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, we've talked
Speaker 1: with him before about the Rise of the Robots, and
Speaker 1: now he has a sequel. It's just out back with
Speaker 1: us as Martin Ford, he's entrepreneur, author of the New
Speaker 1: York Times bestseller The Rise of the Robots, back with
Speaker 1: us on his new book entitled Rule of the Robots,
Speaker 1: How Artificial Intelligence will transform Everything, and Martin joining Katie
Speaker 1: and myself on the phone and Silicon Valley. Martin, good
Speaker 1: to have you back with us. You know robots. Katie
Speaker 1: and I were talking a little bit in the break. Uh.
Speaker 1: For older folks, maybe you think about Lost in Space.
Speaker 1: You might think about Star Wars. You think about Amazon
Speaker 1: Distribution centers, Boston Dynamics, Spot or Big Dog Robots. You
Speaker 1: wrote your previous AI, um, your previous book. I should
Speaker 1: say what back in you talked about AI there. What's
Speaker 1: what's changed between the Rise of the Robots and the
Speaker 1: Rule of the Robots. Well, the story is that artificially
Speaker 1: telling is accelerating. It's getting more and more powerful, and
Speaker 1: it's really becoming almost like the utility. It's becoming like electricity.
Speaker 1: So it's going to be everywhere um and and in
Speaker 1: some cases it will be you know, physical actual robots, um.
Speaker 1: But a lot of times it's algorithms working behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: really impacting every aspect of our lives. So it's really
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be one of the main
Speaker 1: forces that shapes our future. It's really gonna have tremendous influence.
Speaker 1: Katie is really worried about one thing. Go ahead, When
Speaker 1: do I have to worry about when a robot is
Speaker 1: going to take my job? Martin, I think about a lot.
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think about any any movies,
Speaker 1: just job security, right. I mean, it's it's a huge issue,
Speaker 1: and it's what I started writing about in Lines of
Speaker 1: the Robots in this book. I continue that, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a relentless trend. Um.
Speaker 1: The pandemic in some ways has actually accelerated it because
Speaker 1: we had this requirement for more social distancing. Right, if
Speaker 1: you can use a robot or an algorithm to do
Speaker 1: a job, then it means fewer people in that space
Speaker 1: u um. And after the pandemic, of course, or you know,
Speaker 1: around now we we we've actually run into a worker
Speaker 1: shortage where um for various reasons, people have not yet
Speaker 1: returned to the workforce, and that is also actually accelerating
Speaker 1: and pushed to automation. There are lots of stories in
Speaker 1: the news about restaurants and retail scores and so forth
Speaker 1: that they're beginning to embrace automation because of this shortage,
Speaker 1: and that's going to continue to accelerate into the future.
Speaker 1: You know, eventually more people will return to the market
Speaker 1: or to the job market, and of course businesses aren't
Speaker 1: going to abandon these technologies, so they're going to continue
Speaker 1: to get better. Robots are going to get more dexterous,
Speaker 1: more able to do more of the things that people
Speaker 1: can do, and the same is true of artificial intelligence algorithms.
Speaker 1: You know, it's going to really impact work across the board,
Speaker 1: from both unskilled work and more skilled work as well.
Speaker 1: We've talked with John Taffer bar Rescue about increased automation
Speaker 1: and restaurants, and he's talked about the lack of workers
Speaker 1: coming back to the restaurant industry. Is this a good
Speaker 1: thing going forward in that lower level, lower paying service
Speaker 1: jobs are getting replaced by automation and robots, and that
Speaker 1: gives workers an opportunity to elevate uh their skills and
Speaker 1: their job opportunities. Yes, I mean to the extent that
Speaker 1: that happens, right, But my concern, I guess, is that
Speaker 1: there are going to be a lot of people that
Speaker 1: there are going to struggle to find that better position. Uh.
Speaker 1: Not everyone has the skills or a particular talents that
Speaker 1: you might need. For example, when more routine jobs disappear,
Speaker 1: the kinds of jobs where people tend to do the
Speaker 1: same types of things again and again, then yes, there
Speaker 1: are may be other opportunities in areas like, for example,
Speaker 1: jobs that really require forming a deep relationship with other people,
Speaker 1: UM think of a nurse or something like that, right.
Speaker 1: Or there might be more opportunities in really creative fields
Speaker 1: where you're kind of thinking outside the box. But not
Speaker 1: everyone is is equipped to do that kind of work.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't expect that everyone is going to
Speaker 1: become a a computer program or robotics engineer or or
Speaker 1: um a counselor to help people. I mean needs require
Speaker 1: specific talents, right that not everyone has. So I do
Speaker 1: think there's a real risk that a significant fraction of
Speaker 1: our workforce is gonna really struggle to keep up with
Speaker 1: these trends. And Martin quickly, I'm curious what kind of
Speaker 1: timeline we're talking about, because you mentioned that the pandemic
Speaker 1: has accelerated it, the workers shortage has accelerated it. But
Speaker 1: at what point does AI actually become, you know, as
Speaker 1: common as electricity. I think over the next ten years
Speaker 1: certainly will we'll see that develop. Um. It's it's to
Speaker 1: a very real extent, is happening already. I mean AI
Speaker 1: is is in almost everything. Um. And that's going to
Speaker 1: be even more true. Um. And and again it's going
Speaker 1: to get much more powerful. UM. Jeff Bezos, for example,
Speaker 1: said that within ten years he expects to have robots
Speaker 1: that can basically do what people do in terms of
Speaker 1: grasping objects, which means that Amazon warehouses, you know, would
Speaker 1: probably need a lot less people and they have right now. Right.
Speaker 1: So it's just one example, but we're going to see
Speaker 1: that nearly across the board in terms of the capability
Speaker 1: of this technology. And as you said, then we need
Speaker 1: to upscale and train a lot of workers, which has
Speaker 1: been an argument that you've heard from go all the
Speaker 1: way back to I think Alan Greenspan in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, training workers for the jobs that are needed
Speaker 1: for tomorrow. Hey, we're going to continue with Martin Ford.
Speaker 1: He's entrepreneur, he's an author. His book that he wrote,
Speaker 1: of course, The Rise of the Robots, that was a
Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller. His new book, Rule of the Robots.
Speaker 1: We're gonna continue that conversation. Well, still with us is
Speaker 1: Martin Ford. He's an entrepreneur and author. He wrote The
Speaker 1: Rise of the Robots, How Artificial Intelligence Will Transform Everything.
Speaker 1: His new book is on shelves now. That is the
Speaker 1: Rule of the Robots, How Artificial Intelligence will Transform Everything.
Speaker 1: And Martin, you know, we've had you with us and
Speaker 1: we've I feel like we've been using the term robots
Speaker 1: and AI kind of interchangeably. But is there a distinction
Speaker 1: that we should draw there? They often are used somewhat
Speaker 1: interchangeably because people, you know, think in terms of software robots.
Speaker 1: But you know, the way I would define it is
Speaker 1: that artificial intelligence is clearly the underlying technology. It means,
Speaker 1: you know, building machines that begin to exhibit what we
Speaker 1: would call intelligence. Now when you turn it into a
Speaker 1: physical machine, something that you know can physically manipulate the world.
Speaker 1: Then then you're talking about a robot. But actually most
Speaker 1: of artificial intelligence is really just software. You know, it's
Speaker 1: intelligence being deployed on computers UM, and that definitely has
Speaker 1: is going to have just as big an impact, if
Speaker 1: not more than than actual robots. Well, you know what's
Speaker 1: interesting is Katie's got a story that's actually on the
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Terma. It's among our most read and it's talking
Speaker 1: about UM Martin. It's talking about Goldman Sachs specifically, how
Speaker 1: they are looking for the next future tech leaders, basically
Speaker 1: the next batch of Thangstock. So the disruptors, the innovators
Speaker 1: in your book, you talked to a lot of it.
Speaker 1: When it comes to a I for our audience, I'm
Speaker 1: always thinking about the next trends. You know, who are
Speaker 1: the Apples? Who are the Googles? Who are the facebooks
Speaker 1: of tomorrow? Tell us about some of the people you
Speaker 1: spoke with some of the companies that really stood out
Speaker 1: for you. Well, the people I spoke with our our
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence researchers UM for the most part, and they
Speaker 1: work a lot of them work at companies like Google
Speaker 1: and Facebook. Uh. But what I would say is that
Speaker 1: AI is going to kind of underlie everything in the future,
Speaker 1: and so the companies to emerge across different industries UM
Speaker 1: as leaders are going to be those that really deploy
Speaker 1: this technology effectively. It's going to become really just a
Speaker 1: primary essential tool that UM is going to be critical
Speaker 1: and creating value. And those companies that do it early
Speaker 1: on and can deploy this this technology more rapidly are
Speaker 1: very likely to have a first mover advantage UM. So
Speaker 1: you look at companies like black Rock, for example, they're
Speaker 1: suggested heavily in AI, UM Bridge that are confirmed, right, yeah, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: Bridgewater they they've really you know, utilized it. Goldmen Sax
Speaker 1: is another one certainly absolutely that they themselves have invested
Speaker 1: in in a so on Wall Street. The companies that
Speaker 1: do this, of course, are gaining an advantage because you know,
Speaker 1: the hedge funds are using artificial intelligence to trade and
Speaker 1: the forecast and and so forth. It's true across every
Speaker 1: every industry. UM Retailers like Walmart are are investing heavily
Speaker 1: in in AI, and they're gonna i mean just to
Speaker 1: bring automation into stores, but also in terms of logistics, planning,
Speaker 1: UM and so forth. UM Basically, any company that controls
Speaker 1: a lot of data, it's going to be in a
Speaker 1: position to use artificial intelligence to essentially harvest the data
Speaker 1: that value in that data um and and to leverage
Speaker 1: that in different ways. When you talk about data, I
Speaker 1: think about China, who's going to be especially based on
Speaker 1: some of the recent moves by Beijing and Chinese government
Speaker 1: officials and policymakers that they will be accumulating batches of
Speaker 1: data like no one else. What advantage do you think
Speaker 1: that that gives China going forward? Yeah, I mean this
Speaker 1: is a huge issue. This is one of the most
Speaker 1: important chapters in my book about the race between the
Speaker 1: United States and the West generally and China. And China
Speaker 1: does have a number of advantages. As you say, They've
Speaker 1: got huge amounts of data because they've got an enormous
Speaker 1: population four times our size UM and in many ways
Speaker 1: they're also more connected than we are. You know, they
Speaker 1: rely on They've got a uh an app called we Chat,
Speaker 1: for example, that everyone uses on our smartphone to do
Speaker 1: virtually every kind of transaction throughout their economy. So they
Speaker 1: are much more reliant on mobile processing UM payments. For example,
Speaker 1: in the United States is and that just means more data.
Speaker 1: So they've got enormous amounts of data that they can
Speaker 1: work with. They have less really constraints on you know,
Speaker 1: because of issues like privacy and things like that, UM
Speaker 1: in terms of companies being able to access that data
Speaker 1: across areas healthcare and so forth, UM and in other
Speaker 1: advantages because they've got such a huge population, there's got
Speaker 1: an enormous number of talented engineers right that are coming
Speaker 1: up through the system that have a very very strong
Speaker 1: interest in learning about building artificial intelligence applications and they're
Speaker 1: you know, rushing to do that. They're all, you know,
Speaker 1: across the business landscape in China, there are huge numbers
Speaker 1: of startup companies, many of which are are now unicorns billions,
Speaker 1: and all the startups UM compete competing, especially in areas
Speaker 1: like facial recognition and so forth. So there's a very
Speaker 1: strong level of competition there. And you know, what's happening
Speaker 1: in China is very much supported by and to some
Speaker 1: extent funded by the Chinese government. Right they have an
Speaker 1: explicit strategy to make China into a leader in artificial intelligence.
Speaker 1: They want to at least get parody with the US
Speaker 1: and perhaps maybe by the year you get beyond this.
Speaker 1: So well, Martin, that gets into an area that I
Speaker 1: really want to talk to you about because you know,
Speaker 1: we know the companies are really putting their muscles behind it.
Speaker 1: And when it comes to countries, the nations you just
Speaker 1: mentioned China trying to get to parity with the United States.
Speaker 1: Where does the rest of the world fit in, Well,
Speaker 1: many other countries are also about important initiatives. Israel is
Speaker 1: very strong in artificial intelligence, as is you know, Russia,
Speaker 1: of course, um, and you see more evidence of it
Speaker 1: in Europe. You know, it is the nature of the
Speaker 1: technology that, um, it doesn't matter that much who creates it,
Speaker 1: who who develops it. It's going to be everywhere. So
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence you're going to be deployed everywhere in every country.
Speaker 1: So it's going to revolutionize um, you know, pretty much
Speaker 1: every economy, I would say, so. So well, you know
Speaker 1: what's interesting too though, right, there's tremendous upside to some
Speaker 1: of that, But we talked about some of the dislocations
Speaker 1: potentially for many of the workforce. I also think about
Speaker 1: things like military and defense increasingly that is already automated,
Speaker 1: and it's whether you're using drones it's more like a
Speaker 1: video game. It's not hand to hand combat, although we
Speaker 1: know that there's still a lot of that that goes
Speaker 1: on unfortunately. But I do wonder is that a downside
Speaker 1: that increasingly if it's a I used for weapons and
Speaker 1: just got about thirty seconds here, I mean, that's one
Speaker 1: of the downsides potentially. Yeah, that's one of the scariest
Speaker 1: scenarios that you could have truly automated weapons that can
Speaker 1: attack people, kill people without anyone specifically authorizing that. And
Speaker 1: then the really scary thing is what if weapons like
Speaker 1: that fall into the hands of terrorists, you know, outside
Speaker 1: of legitimate the Sherry control. Well, Martin, that's that's truly scary.
Speaker 1: It's so good to check in with you. It was
Speaker 1: when we talked about Rise of the Robots, and so
Speaker 1: great to catch up on your new book. Martin Ford.
Speaker 1: Check out his new book. It's called Rule of the Robots.
Speaker 1: How Artificial Intelligence will transform Everything.