Speaker 1: Welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Moss Show,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about bitcoin, of course, bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, this
Speaker 1: decentralized revolution that we are going through right now. It's
Speaker 1: the most important part of your week, tuning in and
Speaker 1: listening as I keep you caught up on what is
Speaker 1: going on so you can have the strongholds, strong hands
Speaker 1: to hold through these market dips that we're having today.
Speaker 1: I'm joined in the studio by Natalie Brunel. You can
Speaker 1: find her on Twitter at nat Brunel. That's with two
Speaker 1: els And uh, we thought we'd just talk about some
Speaker 1: of the news. Nat, thanks so much for joining, Thanks
Speaker 1: Mark for having me. Super excited to be here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know, it's a as as almost every week,
Speaker 1: it's pretty eventful in the bitcoin space. Things are happening
Speaker 1: really quick. Lots of news headlines are going on. But
Speaker 1: there's something bigger than just this week that I've been
Speaker 1: seeing and and big news broke out this week and
Speaker 1: turning into be one of my favorite places in the
Speaker 1: world right now, Al Salvador, and this news or article
Speaker 1: came out and says El Salvador plans to be the
Speaker 1: first bitcoin city backed by bitcoin loan big bitcoin bonds,
Speaker 1: and it says that the city, the president of El
Speaker 1: Salvador plan the city um in the eastern region of
Speaker 1: law Union, which would get geo thermal power from a
Speaker 1: volcano and not levy any taxes on the people except
Speaker 1: for value added tax. And so basically the president saying,
Speaker 1: invest here, you know, make all the money that you want,
Speaker 1: keep it all and um, you know. He went on
Speaker 1: to say that he thinks this is going to make
Speaker 1: El Salvador the financial center of the world. And uh,
Speaker 1: I think we're witnessing game theory and action. I love
Speaker 1: to see this. In my opinion, I've been talking about
Speaker 1: this for a long time. I think it's I think
Speaker 1: it's very evident that the world is trending towards authoritarianism
Speaker 1: more more oppression from all around, from a global minimum
Speaker 1: tax to surveillance technology, etcetera. And I've been saying the
Speaker 1: only thing I believe that breaks that trend of moving
Speaker 1: towards authoritarianism is competition. And so when states start to
Speaker 1: compete for each other and are forced to think of
Speaker 1: you as a customer, Um, we'll get better service, better products,
Speaker 1: better pricing. But when nations start competing, it's like a
Speaker 1: whole another level. I mean, what do you think about that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally agree. And it's interesting that you even talk
Speaker 1: about authoritarian governments because there are critics out there who
Speaker 1: say that President Naive bu Kelly is a dictator, and
Speaker 1: here he is promoting a currency that he will never
Speaker 1: be able to manipulate or control. Right. And although I
Speaker 1: know that some people had a gag reflect with just
Speaker 1: the presentation of El Salvador, I personally didn't mind it,
Speaker 1: but I mean it was amazing to witness him just
Speaker 1: presenting this idea of a bitcoin city, zero percent capital
Speaker 1: gains tax, zero percent property tax. Right, everything is funded
Speaker 1: by these bonds that I think are very innovative, and
Speaker 1: and the and a ten percent flat sales tax, which
Speaker 1: I think will you know, attract entrepreneurs, attract innovation. And
Speaker 1: they're planning on having it in the Gulf of Fonseka
Speaker 1: right around that volcane. Know that they planned to harness
Speaker 1: for power. They're going to build the energy infrastructure around it,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, once again we have the
Speaker 1: chance for mining to really spur innovation in green energy.
Speaker 1: And then hopefully, you know, these bonds will make some
Speaker 1: folks a lot of money. It seems like UM block
Speaker 1: stream is already having a lot of interest from people
Speaker 1: from the Whales to enter this space. So it's a
Speaker 1: really great announcement. Yeah, I just think, I mean, if
Speaker 1: I like to look at these like little changes that
Speaker 1: we have today, like like if you watch a movie,
Speaker 1: like they go back in time and like, oh, don't
Speaker 1: touch anything, because if you move one thing, it could
Speaker 1: have this massive impact on the future. And so when
Speaker 1: I look at this and I just think about how
Speaker 1: big this can be. So like, UM, we're both from California.
Speaker 1: UM California and New York were competing to be the
Speaker 1: strictest under the lockdowns in Texas and Florida outcompeted them,
Speaker 1: and most of Wall Street moved to Florida, a lot
Speaker 1: of Silicon valleys moved to Texas. UM I went to
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico. They gave me better business structure, and so
Speaker 1: I took it. And so it's that competition loop. And
Speaker 1: as youkind of pointed out, right, he's brought all these
Speaker 1: people there that can come star businesses. Have no cap
Speaker 1: games tax, no income tax, no property tax. Like that's
Speaker 1: gonna attract a lot of people versus UM Like California
Speaker 1: is like, well, we're just gonna increase property since since
Speaker 1: since all the rich people left, let's increase property taxes
Speaker 1: on people that are there. Like It's like, it's a
Speaker 1: pretty stark difference. I think, Oh yeah, by the way,
Speaker 1: I think the jobs numbers came out and California's fifty.
Speaker 1: I mean, they brag about the economy here in California,
Speaker 1: and yet we're we're coming in last place. But you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right. And I love seeing the politicians in the
Speaker 1: United States as well, sort of competing for this. We
Speaker 1: have both the new Mayor of New York, Eric Adams,
Speaker 1: as well as Mayor Francis Suarez in Miami, both saying
Speaker 1: we want this city to be the hub. We wanted
Speaker 1: to be the center for crypto and for this type
Speaker 1: of business. And so I think it's gonna spur a
Speaker 1: lot of um entrepreneurs and and a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: maybe people just moving out there. I mean, I'm certainly
Speaker 1: considering moving myself to a place that's a little bit
Speaker 1: more friendly in terms of taxes and just the spirit
Speaker 1: of this ecosystem and what it stands for. And I
Speaker 1: was really excited about the the el Salvador News, and
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope more countries go in this direction.
Speaker 1: You know, that's something you said. They're like the spirit
Speaker 1: of what it stands for. Right, So if you think
Speaker 1: about it, like, um, I don't know if you agree,
Speaker 1: but like from my standpoint, it's like I've been Del
Speaker 1: Salvador many times. I spent a lot of time in
Speaker 1: Central America surfing, mostly surfing, but I've been down there
Speaker 1: and worked with Bitcoin Beach as well. And you know,
Speaker 1: while America is better in terms of you have, you know,
Speaker 1: more modern things and conveniences all those things, there's this spirit,
Speaker 1: there's this air of things in decline versus if you
Speaker 1: go down Del Salvador, which is a very poor country,
Speaker 1: it's like a hundred and seven on gdp um. Then
Speaker 1: there's not the conveniences that you would typically have, but
Speaker 1: the air, the spirit is like optimism, it's like hope.
Speaker 1: And I think that makes a big difference, just that
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. And it's so funny because
Speaker 1: I swear like right now, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people are living on this false sort of high of
Speaker 1: the stimulus, and you know, we have this massive, in
Speaker 1: my opinion, asset bubble in the stock market. Housing prices
Speaker 1: are through the roof, you know, rents or skyrocketing, and
Speaker 1: you know, people got their their stimulus checks, and there
Speaker 1: was sort of this idea that, oh, people saving rates
Speaker 1: are up, people are spending money again. I think all
Speaker 1: of this is just imaginary wealth. I think it's it's fake.
Speaker 1: We are so leveraged, we are in such a big
Speaker 1: bubble and it has to crash at some point um.
Speaker 1: Yet we have the government sort of outlying any sort
Speaker 1: of correction in the market, right because they're just going
Speaker 1: to initiate more printing to save it, to keep propping
Speaker 1: up what they've created. And we're in this fascinating place
Speaker 1: where I think the average person knows that something's off,
Speaker 1: like I don't. I don't know that they necessarily maybe
Speaker 1: expect to crash, because I think they already assume the
Speaker 1: government's going to come and rescue them. But there's this
Speaker 1: general feeling of like, why, you know, we haven't even
Speaker 1: recovered from the pandemic. Our economy is not back in action.
Speaker 1: There's a ton of jobs that haven't been filled, people
Speaker 1: are still at home, businesses have been shuttered. Yet we
Speaker 1: have all time highs in the stock market like something's off.
Speaker 1: It's it's so it feels like a video game that
Speaker 1: we're watching. Sometimes another thing is back to that spirit.
Speaker 1: So he Boukeley says, quote, invest here and make all
Speaker 1: the money you want. Which in America we're basically trying
Speaker 1: to penalize the rich. We're trying to victim or villainize
Speaker 1: the rich. Right, if you make more money, you have
Speaker 1: to give up more of your wealth. How dare you
Speaker 1: have that? And he says, invest here and make all
Speaker 1: the money that you want. And so, um, I think
Speaker 1: that's cool. And then also like um, by leveraging something
Speaker 1: like bitcoin, then they can go into like no no
Speaker 1: property tax, no income tax, um. And then just leverage
Speaker 1: it off of like a sales tax, which I which
Speaker 1: I like. It's like a consumption tax, so you pay
Speaker 1: for you pay for what you use. Um. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's how our country used to be when we
Speaker 1: were on sort of that terraff system before we initiated
Speaker 1: the income tax back in which was for a very
Speaker 1: small percentage of the population. I would imagine that people
Speaker 1: would never have voted in an in come tax that
Speaker 1: they knew that eventually would hit like you know, all
Speaker 1: of the middle class and sort of strangle the people
Speaker 1: that are in the middle saving and and and having
Speaker 1: day jobs that are enough to pay for for anything.
Speaker 1: But I totally agree with you. And something I thought
Speaker 1: of something when the whole else salvagere thing happened. I
Speaker 1: was on the Twitter spaces that Nick Carter put on
Speaker 1: where um, they were actually voting for bitcoin to be
Speaker 1: legal tender, and it was it was I don't know
Speaker 1: if you were on this, mark, but it was such
Speaker 1: an amazing energy filled Twitter spaces where we had this
Speaker 1: millennial president, you know, talking in real time to a
Speaker 1: bunch of people across the world who are big bitcoiners
Speaker 1: while the the you know, the elected officials are voting
Speaker 1: on this in real time. We could hear the cheers
Speaker 1: in the background, and he said something that I remember
Speaker 1: where he was like when I was young, there was
Speaker 1: a lot of hope when I thought about the future
Speaker 1: that I would look into the future and there was
Speaker 1: I would imagine spaceships, you know, when we're all traveling
Speaker 1: and like spaceships, and it's like technologies, you know, has
Speaker 1: taken over the world and everything is sort of writing
Speaker 1: on this on on these rails that are are innovative,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, it just prosperous. There's prospers there's
Speaker 1: prosperity and technological innovation. And when he got older, it
Speaker 1: was like the future is filled full of filled with uncertainty,
Speaker 1: and there's instability in the nation, and like how much
Speaker 1: has changed since he was little and he's hoping to
Speaker 1: bring back some of that hope through this decision. And
Speaker 1: I think that that was that was really interesting to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's great. You're listening to the Mark mos show. I'm
Speaker 1: on with Natalie Brunell. I want to come back and
Speaker 1: tell you more about El Salvador. We'll be right back,
Speaker 1: all right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark
Speaker 1: Moa Show and we're talking about bitcoin. Of course, we're
Speaker 1: talking about cryptocurrencies and we're talking about this decentralized revolution
Speaker 1: that's changing the world. I'm in the studio right now
Speaker 1: with Natalie Brunel. You can find her on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Matt Brunel, and we're talking about something that's going to
Speaker 1: change the whole face of the world. We're literally talking
Speaker 1: about something that big, and we're talking about what El
Speaker 1: Salvador is doing um to make this Bitcoin city another
Speaker 1: thing that I was thinking about, Natalie, is that, Um,
Speaker 1: in order to build this bitcoin city, they are going
Speaker 1: to power it with a volcano. And if you think
Speaker 1: about this for a second, so like, um, if you
Speaker 1: look at you know, throughout history, all the wealth of
Speaker 1: nations came from uh the nation having natural resources, so water, gold, oil,
Speaker 1: things like that, and typically the nations had the more
Speaker 1: natural resources were more wealthy. And El Salvador being ranked
Speaker 1: a hundred and seven on GDP, they don't have any
Speaker 1: natural resources. They have like coconuts, and like that's kind
Speaker 1: of it, um, But they have this volcano and like
Speaker 1: so what like what's the volcano worth? Right, And it's like, well,
Speaker 1: the volcano has heat, and okay, well the heat can
Speaker 1: make electricity. Okay, but you can't ship electricity. You can't
Speaker 1: even move it to the rest of the country. It's
Speaker 1: only there locally, so it's no good. And now they
Speaker 1: can mind bitcoin with it, and they can use that
Speaker 1: energy to power the city because it's local, and then
Speaker 1: they could use the money from that coin to pay
Speaker 1: for the city, which is why they don't have to
Speaker 1: levy so much taxes on it. And so that's big, right.
Speaker 1: But then like think about it, like, um, how could
Speaker 1: this reshape the world? Because Um, as a surfer, I've
Speaker 1: traveled all over the world surfing. I'd love to go
Speaker 1: through the South Pacific and to the South Pacific. You
Speaker 1: have all these little a tolls with volcanoes, all these
Speaker 1: little islands that have no noutive resources but they have volcanoes,
Speaker 1: and like, this could probably redraw the entire power structure
Speaker 1: of the world. Yeah, I think it's something that's so
Speaker 1: amazing and exciting. It's crazy to think that this was
Speaker 1: kind of thrown out as an idea by Max Kaiser.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you you saw that, but he
Speaker 1: was the one that first I believe, suggested volcano bonds,
Speaker 1: and I think it's fantastic. I mean, I think this
Speaker 1: was a really creative idea to basically structure the bonds
Speaker 1: in such a way that five million will be used
Speaker 1: to actually build that energy infrastructure, and then the other
Speaker 1: five hundred will be used to buy the bitcoins that
Speaker 1: will finance you know, people getting their their yield on this.
Speaker 1: My one question is, you know what's going to happen
Speaker 1: when they planned this sell some of their bitcoins because
Speaker 1: I don't know if you read part of that. But
Speaker 1: they eventually will will sell so that they can pay
Speaker 1: dividends to the people who own these bonds. And I
Speaker 1: don't know how that would affect the market, but I mean,
Speaker 1: think about how just creative and progressive you have to
Speaker 1: be as an elected official to do something that's never
Speaker 1: been done like this, and all for the benefit hopefully
Speaker 1: of tapping into a natural resource like your your volcano,
Speaker 1: which now could be used to power you know, mining efforts.
Speaker 1: It's just it's just incredible to me. And think about
Speaker 1: it from a different level too. So, um, the world's
Speaker 1: drowning in debt. Since we got off the gold standard
Speaker 1: fifty years ago in August, we've come up with over
Speaker 1: three hundred trillion dollars worth of debt. When a nation
Speaker 1: wants to take on debt, they issue a bond and
Speaker 1: so people buy that bond, and you're supposed to when
Speaker 1: you buy the bond, you're loaning the money. You're supposed
Speaker 1: to get interest. Well, half of the sovereign bonds today
Speaker 1: are negative yielding, So we have about eighteen trillion dollars
Speaker 1: of bonds that actually don't pay you. You actually have
Speaker 1: to pay them to loan them your money. Which makes
Speaker 1: no sense. Only in a world of free money would
Speaker 1: you have that. Um. So half the half the bonds
Speaker 1: are paying nothing. And even in the United States, it's
Speaker 1: you know, ten years whatever one and a half percent today,
Speaker 1: but inflation is over six so you're still losing money
Speaker 1: even on that. And so you have all this money
Speaker 1: that doesn't know where to go, and it's going into
Speaker 1: negative yielding bonds. And now they come out with a
Speaker 1: bond at six and a half percent, which is like
Speaker 1: pretty big compared to everybody else. So like they're out
Speaker 1: competing again, back to that kind of competition thing. So
Speaker 1: to your point, and they're raising a billion dollars. Half
Speaker 1: of it goes to build out the energy, the mining,
Speaker 1: the facility, and then half of it goes to buy
Speaker 1: bitcoin directly. Um. What they're saying is they're gonna lock
Speaker 1: it up for five years and they'll pay the six
Speaker 1: and a half percent and then kind of to your point, Um,
Speaker 1: they'll start selling the bitcoin after year five to start
Speaker 1: paying additional on that based off of blockstream numbers, which, Um,
Speaker 1: I'm a big bitcoin bull. Uh, they're a little bit
Speaker 1: bullish even for me. Um, they're saying, you know, bitcoin
Speaker 1: hit in the price of a million dollars in like
Speaker 1: five years, which I think is a little bit aggressive.
Speaker 1: I think five d in five years is probably realistic,
Speaker 1: but who who knows? Um? But anyway, Um, then they'll
Speaker 1: start selling it and they say the bonds could pay
Speaker 1: up to a hundred and forty six percent, depend on
Speaker 1: what bitcoins performances and so what like eighteen trillings eighteen
Speaker 1: trilling dollars and bonds are negative yielding, and here you
Speaker 1: can potentially make up to a hundred and I know exactly.
Speaker 1: And it was really interesting because I saw Samson Mow
Speaker 1: on an interview with Bloomberg and the reporter was pressing
Speaker 1: him because actually El Salvador's bond right now pays the
Speaker 1: yield of thirteen percent, So she's like, why would anyone
Speaker 1: choose the six point five? And it's like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you're not seeing the bigger picture. And and that's where
Speaker 1: you do. You have to believe in this technology. You
Speaker 1: have to be super bullish because the estimates are based
Speaker 1: on those future price you know, predictions. And it's kind
Speaker 1: of sad because right now we're looking at the stock
Speaker 1: to flow, right and we're kind of like, what's going
Speaker 1: on why are we at that level where you should
Speaker 1: be at the six figure mark already? But I do
Speaker 1: have faith that that we will get there and and
Speaker 1: we'll see how the sponds payoff. Yeah, and if you
Speaker 1: look at if you look at this too, it's no
Speaker 1: different than what Michael Sailor has done with micro Strategy.
Speaker 1: He's done several of these um Now in the last
Speaker 1: two weeks or so, I think we've seen at least
Speaker 1: four or five publicly traded bitcoin mining companies do the
Speaker 1: same thing, issue bonds to go buy bitcoin. So Michaels,
Speaker 1: you know, micro Strategy has done it a couple of times,
Speaker 1: and they're oversubscribed every time. You know, they've done a
Speaker 1: billion dollars um. All these bitcoin companies have done hundreds
Speaker 1: of millions of dollars each, So we've seen billions of
Speaker 1: dollars of appetite for this UM so I have no
Speaker 1: doubt they'll fill this up pretty quickly. Yeah, I agree,
Speaker 1: And I think that just anything that provides more of
Speaker 1: these on ramps onto this sort of highway of getting
Speaker 1: into bitcoin, especially institutions that maybe are not able to
Speaker 1: own bitcoin directly. These bonds and and the e t
Speaker 1: f s that were past a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1: All of these are pathways for more adoption, which I
Speaker 1: think is is so incredibly important. Yeah, you mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: you know, about the politics side, and some people call
Speaker 1: him a dictator. I think he even I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe joking around on Twitter changed you know, said call
Speaker 1: himselves the dictator or something like that. Um. I don't
Speaker 1: know enough of the politics to really get involved to
Speaker 1: put my opinion into that. UM. I try to, you know,
Speaker 1: judge a person as as I as I learned about
Speaker 1: them and based off of what I've been seeing. I
Speaker 1: haven't really seen that, so I'm not sure where all
Speaker 1: the grape is on that. Yeah, I haven't either. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there are more nuances that maybe we're
Speaker 1: not familiar with, especially not living in El Salvador. But
Speaker 1: I do think that once again, you have to give
Speaker 1: someone credit for embracing a technology that he will never
Speaker 1: be able to control as a government or as you know,
Speaker 1: a treasury. This is something that's by the people for
Speaker 1: the people. It's completely organic, it's not venture capital backed.
Speaker 1: I just think that, you know, by moving in this direction,
Speaker 1: it's in that positive especially for a country that has
Speaker 1: been dealing with so many debt issues, it's like, why
Speaker 1: not try something outside of the box. Why not? What
Speaker 1: do you have to lose at this point? So I
Speaker 1: think it's great. I mean, people obviously are still able
Speaker 1: to transact in US dollars, but I think if bitcoin
Speaker 1: is headed in the direction we expect, this will be very,
Speaker 1: very powerful as a tool for allowing prosperity and for
Speaker 1: you know, wealth accumulation in Al Salvador. Yeah, I've just
Speaker 1: been saying I think that, you know, bitcoin is a
Speaker 1: political Bitcoin isn't for one political party or another. It's
Speaker 1: not for one economic system or another. It's just a
Speaker 1: political It's just a tool. So whatever happens, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: if if for some reason he turns out to be
Speaker 1: a bad actor and tries to do something nefarious, like,
Speaker 1: don't assign that to bitcoin. That's not Bitcoin's fault. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, if he if he does something bad, we
Speaker 1: have to kind of look at that separately. So I
Speaker 1: do want people to at least make that distinction that
Speaker 1: is not this political tool. By the way, you're listening
Speaker 1: to the Mark Moss Show, we're talking about bitcoin. If
Speaker 1: you haven't figured it out already, we're talking about the
Speaker 1: cryptocurrencies and this decentralized revolution. I'm in the studio with
Speaker 1: Natalie Brunel. You can find her at Nott Brunel on Twitter.
Speaker 1: Send her a message and say hi. When we come back,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about UM some other game theory
Speaker 1: that's going on between nations, UM, but maybe in the
Speaker 1: opposite direction. So don't go away, we'll right back. All right,
Speaker 1: Welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Mos Show,
Speaker 1: and we're here talking about bitcoin, and we're talking about cryptocurrencies,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about the decentralized revolution that's literally changing
Speaker 1: the entire world. It's going to change the way humanity works.
Speaker 1: We're witnessing it all happening right now. I know that
Speaker 1: the world is scary, and I know there's a lot
Speaker 1: of bad things going on, and trust me, I see it.
Speaker 1: But there's also some amazing things happening, and history books
Speaker 1: are going to be written about this time and place,
Speaker 1: and that's what we're talking about right now. Hopefully you
Speaker 1: can see how big it is. I'm in the studio
Speaker 1: with my friend Natalie Brunell. You can find her at
Speaker 1: nat Brunell. Of course, I'm one Mark Moss that's the
Speaker 1: number one. Mark Moss. Before the break, we were talking
Speaker 1: about how El Salvador is really ramping up the game
Speaker 1: theory by opening up their country. They've removed all mandates
Speaker 1: and restrictions on the health type stuff. UM, They've opened
Speaker 1: it up for business. They're allowing investment in business to
Speaker 1: come in. They're not charging them any sales tax or
Speaker 1: property tax. I mean, they're basically just saying we're going
Speaker 1: to outcompete everybody, come and get us, and just opening
Speaker 1: everything up, which I love. On the other side of that,
Speaker 1: which is pretty interesting to see play out in real time,
Speaker 1: we have India and so India this week came out
Speaker 1: and said that they want to bar crypto transactions but
Speaker 1: still permit holding assets. So they said that they want
Speaker 1: to UM the bar the use of cryptocurrencies for transactions
Speaker 1: or making payments, but allow them to be held as
Speaker 1: assets like gold, stock shares or bonds. And they said
Speaker 1: that this approach would avoid implementing a complete ban because
Speaker 1: people could still get access to it. UM and the
Speaker 1: and the Prime Minister said that they were doing this
Speaker 1: because they were concerned UM that unregulated crypto markets could
Speaker 1: become avenues for money laundering and terror financing. Uh, they
Speaker 1: haven't finalized the details of bill, but that's kind of
Speaker 1: where it's at. So it's like one country is saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we're gonna let you entrepreneurs come build and do what
Speaker 1: you want. On the other side is like, hey, we're
Speaker 1: not going to allow you to do what you want
Speaker 1: with your own money. I mean, it's a pretty stark
Speaker 1: difference right now. Yeah, absolutely, And it seems like, you know,
Speaker 1: India is probably taking sort of the majority standpoint of
Speaker 1: seeing all of this as a threat and wanting to
Speaker 1: maintain their prerogative on the power over money and and
Speaker 1: how people transact and who controls the tender. So I
Speaker 1: think it's really interesting there. It seems like they're trying
Speaker 1: to find this middle ground where people can have it
Speaker 1: as sort of an asset, the way they do with
Speaker 1: gold and gosh, I mean India for for so long,
Speaker 1: I think I think gold is one of I don't
Speaker 1: I don't probably don't know if many countries that honor
Speaker 1: and love gold more than India, I don't know, um,
Speaker 1: but I do think it's really interesting that they're so
Speaker 1: threatened by this type of technology as opposed to allow
Speaker 1: allowing it to you know, potentially lift up communities. Obviously
Speaker 1: much of India is so impoverished. This could be something
Speaker 1: that's very, very helpful. But looks like the central bank
Speaker 1: doesn't really understand the technology or doesn't want to embrace it.
Speaker 1: Well I think, I mean, I think they do, And
Speaker 1: so I actually think unlike China, which did a complete
Speaker 1: outright ban, it almost looks like what India has done
Speaker 1: here is gone. We'll shoot um. On one hand, we
Speaker 1: recognize that this tool could be used to get out
Speaker 1: of our control, but we also recognize that um, if
Speaker 1: we ban it, we don't stop the technology, We just
Speaker 1: stop our people from participating or profit in it. So
Speaker 1: what we'll do is we'll still allow them to profit
Speaker 1: from it on a dollar basis, but they can't own it.
Speaker 1: So it's almost like they do recognize the potential um
Speaker 1: that they're afraid of, but also that they don't want
Speaker 1: to ban their people, so they're at least letting them participate,
Speaker 1: like you know, in the price action. I guess, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it just it's interesting because I feel like
Speaker 1: everything is still lumped together, right. Cryptocurrencies are not all
Speaker 1: the same. Bitcoin is not crypto, and and I think
Speaker 1: that when you don't make this type of UM, you
Speaker 1: don't distinguish between them, and you don't maybe acknowledge the
Speaker 1: differences of bitcoin between some of the other technology projects
Speaker 1: that are out there and other coins. I think that
Speaker 1: that that really says something. UM. And you know, I
Speaker 1: just in in India. I think that there are a
Speaker 1: lot of issues that could potentially be solved by bitcoin,
Speaker 1: and hopefully they will allow users to have access to this,
Speaker 1: to the blockchain. But you know, I think that we
Speaker 1: have to wait and see. Yeah, I think you know,
Speaker 1: it's like you know, as I said, right, the government
Speaker 1: could ban their their people, their citizens from using it,
Speaker 1: but they can't stop it. And so um, you know,
Speaker 1: in the United States, obviously, goal, I mean, drugs have
Speaker 1: been illegal for a long time, and drugs have to
Speaker 1: be grown and cultivated and package and shipped and process
Speaker 1: and smuggled and distribute all those things. They can't even
Speaker 1: stop that. But also when they come out and tell
Speaker 1: you that hey, you don't you shouldn't do drugs, um,
Speaker 1: it doesn't make you want to go do them because
Speaker 1: you know they're not they're not not good for you, right, Um.
Speaker 1: But when they tell you you don't have the right
Speaker 1: to hold your wealth in a way that we can't
Speaker 1: inflate and steal and regulate. It kind of makes you
Speaker 1: want to do that, and so I think I think
Speaker 1: it does more for the marketing than than not almost
Speaker 1: kind of proves the case. Yeah, well, and they're really
Speaker 1: stoking fears right by saying that this is linked to
Speaker 1: money laundering and terrify financing, and I think all of
Speaker 1: that makes people a little bit anxious and worried. And
Speaker 1: I you know, I think that India is very modern
Speaker 1: in many ways, but there's still very much a cast system,
Speaker 1: and so I would be interested to know what it's
Speaker 1: like to be in India and hearing about this from
Speaker 1: the news sources that are out there, because I think
Speaker 1: we're getting a different narrative and different headlines than maybe
Speaker 1: people in India are themselves. I love that that headline.
Speaker 1: Of course, it's always the worst fear, like oh it's
Speaker 1: gonna fun terrorism and uh, you know, money laundering, And
Speaker 1: it's like those fins and files came out whatever eight
Speaker 1: nine months ago and it was like the banks have
Speaker 1: laundered like two trillion dollars, like the banking system, Like
Speaker 1: you're worried about like the little hundreds of millions of
Speaker 1: dollars over here, like literally like two trillion dollars have
Speaker 1: gone through the banks. I think that's more for shock
Speaker 1: value than probably what they're really concerned about. Well, I
Speaker 1: think it's amazing too that right now they're acknowledging that
Speaker 1: this one trillion market cap asset is such a threat, right,
Speaker 1: it could destabilize nations and just you know, not even
Speaker 1: ten years ago, it was seven years ago, it was
Speaker 1: just internet funny money, ponzi scheme scam. Now it can
Speaker 1: suddenly bring down nations on a national security level. It's
Speaker 1: just it's so interesting to see the evolution. I think
Speaker 1: adoption is inevitable. I think these are just this is
Speaker 1: there's volatility and the acceptance, just as there's volatility in
Speaker 1: the price. And I think the next couple of years
Speaker 1: will be crucial. And I personally think the pandemic did
Speaker 1: a lot to help not only put a spotlight on
Speaker 1: on bitcoin, but really show the value proposition. Right we
Speaker 1: are now exponentially money printing all across the world. In
Speaker 1: order to sort of, you know, put a band aid
Speaker 1: over what what the pandemic exposed, I think we already
Speaker 1: had problems before the pandemic. I think it exposed those
Speaker 1: nerve endings and we need a fix and that fixes bitcoin.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people saw that light
Speaker 1: in the last year. Yeah, I did. I did a
Speaker 1: video explaining what's known as the Mundol Fleming try limma.
Speaker 1: So you have basically dilemmas, choose one of one or
Speaker 1: the other try limmas. You have three and any nation
Speaker 1: that they have three things, and so one is controlling
Speaker 1: their interest rates, two is controlling the money money supply,
Speaker 1: and third is controlling their capital inflows and outflows. And
Speaker 1: so obviously if they bring interest rates to zero and
Speaker 1: they inflate the money supply, then capital is not going
Speaker 1: to want to come in, and most of the capital
Speaker 1: is gonna want to leave. And so that's the that's
Speaker 1: the try limit that they're stuck with. And I was
Speaker 1: doing this in regards to when China band it, and
Speaker 1: so China wants to maipulate the interest rates and their
Speaker 1: money supply, but then capital wants to leave in the
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency is that lifeboats and then they ban it, right,
Speaker 1: they take away that option. And so you know in
Speaker 1: this day and age, which you know now with this
Speaker 1: you know, all this green infrastructure spending, they want to
Speaker 1: do a hundred fifty tillion dollars or whatever. Um, they're
Speaker 1: going to have to just keep printing more money and
Speaker 1: they can't raise interest rates, and so people are going
Speaker 1: to want to leave um and they don't want to
Speaker 1: do that. They want to seal uppy exits or takeaway
Speaker 1: take away the lifeboats. Yeah. No, I mean it's crazy
Speaker 1: to think that they are basically stuck between a rock
Speaker 1: and a hard place because of the consequences of the
Speaker 1: money printing and going off the gold standard over the
Speaker 1: last several decades. And now literally it's either do what's
Speaker 1: right that the painful medicine, hike interest rates taper and
Speaker 1: allow this thing to crash, and boy would that be
Speaker 1: a bad crash, or basically move into the direction of
Speaker 1: more and more inflation, which just debases the dollars, steals
Speaker 1: from the people in the middle, steals from the savers,
Speaker 1: steals from the in come earners who aren't in assets.
Speaker 1: It's it's really sad the position we're in, and it's
Speaker 1: it's amazing to me that bitcoin kind of provides that
Speaker 1: life raft, Like that's what's so, that's what's so inspiring
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, it's like like a drug addict. You know,
Speaker 1: if you can keep giving them more drugs, it's eventually
Speaker 1: going to kill them. But if you pull the drugs,
Speaker 1: it's this horrible process that they have to go through
Speaker 1: either way. I want to talk more about what you
Speaker 1: said about the risk of bringing down a nation state,
Speaker 1: and there's actually somebody, a prominent influential person came out
Speaker 1: this week and and warned of that exactly happening. We'll
Speaker 1: talk about that when we get back. You're listening to
Speaker 1: the Mark mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin. Of course,
Speaker 1: we're talking about cryptocurrencies in this entire decentralized revolution. I'm
Speaker 1: in the studio with Natal Natalie Brunell, and we will
Speaker 1: be right back. All right, welcome back. You are listening
Speaker 1: to the Mark Moa Show and we're talking about bitcoin.
Speaker 1: We're talking about cryptocurrencies and the decentralized revolution that is happening.
Speaker 1: I'm in the studio with Natalie Brunel. You can find
Speaker 1: under at nat Brunell on Twitter. Of course I'm one
Speaker 1: Mark Moss on Twitter. And we were talking about before
Speaker 1: the break, we were talking about, of course bitcoin, but
Speaker 1: we're talking about how this game theory is playing out
Speaker 1: in real time where you have El Salvador embracing it
Speaker 1: and um creating this awesome environment for people to come
Speaker 1: and build and invest and grow. And then you have
Speaker 1: India on the other side, who's kind of punishing people
Speaker 1: and taking away their ability to participate. And so we're
Speaker 1: seeing those two things play out in real time. My
Speaker 1: money's on nations like El Salvador. I think a free
Speaker 1: markets always win. But another thing that happened this week
Speaker 1: was Hillary Clinton. I don't even know why she's still
Speaker 1: in the news anymore. Um. She came out and of
Speaker 1: course she had to echo what we've already heard from
Speaker 1: Janet Yelling from the Treasury and Christine Legarde from the
Speaker 1: ECB and and basically, um, she said that it undermines cryptocurrencies.
Speaker 1: Bitcoin undermines the financial system. It threatens the financial system.
Speaker 1: And I was just thinking, like, you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of people think that the dollar is backed by Some
Speaker 1: people still think it's backed by gold, some people think
Speaker 1: it's backed by the military. Um, we have, you know,
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of people that support the financial system,
Speaker 1: the military, the all of that. Um, you know, the
Speaker 1: swift banking system all the banks, all this and they're
Speaker 1: worried about open source piece of code out competing them.
Speaker 1: I mean, how ironic is that? Yeah? I mean again,
Speaker 1: I think this is just an example of how Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton either hasn't done her homework or she's being completely
Speaker 1: disingenuous on this technology. First of all, on the Democratic side,
Speaker 1: this will empower your base that you want to be
Speaker 1: able to afford their kids college education and afford to
Speaker 1: have a house. I mean, I think it's just ridiculous
Speaker 1: when she's how was it, how was it being how
Speaker 1: is it being disingenuous? Because I mean, it will it
Speaker 1: does threaten the financial system, don't Well, But I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that she's conflating cryptocurrencies again with bitcoin,
Speaker 1: and if she does have knowledge about it, I don't
Speaker 1: think she's being genuine about knowledge of how it can
Speaker 1: empower people, of how it can be a tool for empowerment,
Speaker 1: for wealth accumulation, for creating generational wealth. That's what I
Speaker 1: sort of mean. It's like, if you really knew, if
Speaker 1: you really understand this technology, you wouldn't be saying some
Speaker 1: of this um And I'm one of those people that
Speaker 1: I don't want to see the collapse of the US dollar.
Speaker 1: I want bitcoin, like Michael Sailor has said, to make
Speaker 1: the US dollar potentially more powerful than ever. They can
Speaker 1: ride on monetary rails right next to each other. We
Speaker 1: don't have to be in a world where where all
Speaker 1: of a sudden crashing, you know, the dollar completely, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden everyone is just transacting in bitcoin.
Speaker 1: I mean, some people believe that will happen, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I'm I am more apt to
Speaker 1: believe what Michael Sailor thinks will happen, which is that
Speaker 1: other foreign currencies collapse into the dollar, and the dollar
Speaker 1: and bitcoin are very strong. The dollar remains the reserve
Speaker 1: currency used for exchanges. But going back to kind of
Speaker 1: you know what she said, It's like, these are the
Speaker 1: people that created this problem. These are the people that
Speaker 1: have created the bubbles, and when the economy wanted to contract,
Speaker 1: they came in and expanded the money supply more and
Speaker 1: made the problem worse and just kick the can down
Speaker 1: the road out And now they're they're you know, attacking
Speaker 1: the one thing that can potentially rectify some of what
Speaker 1: they've caused. Yeah, I think, um, you know, whenever you
Speaker 1: have new technology. It's it's what's called creative destruction. And
Speaker 1: so the new way, the new creation is so much
Speaker 1: better that it destroys the old way. So digital cameras
Speaker 1: destroyed film cameras. Um, it's nothing against film cameras. It's
Speaker 1: just digital cameras are just better. And that's just is
Speaker 1: what it is. And so, UM, I think when Christine
Speaker 1: Legarde or or Hillary Clinton says that Christine Leguard said
Speaker 1: that that innovation is a threat to financial stability, well,
Speaker 1: it's a threat to their financial monopoly. Um, it's a
Speaker 1: it's a threat to them. They're they're they're monopoly being stable.
Speaker 1: But that's the whole point, right, it's a better system
Speaker 1: and so we can move to it. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: I do agree with Christine Leguard and Hillary it's a
Speaker 1: threat to the financial system that they have their grip around. Um.
Speaker 1: But not um, not in an adversarial way. I don't
Speaker 1: like to think of bitcoin as an attack. Um. Bitcoin
Speaker 1: is just an opt out. It's a it's a way
Speaker 1: that I can decide to park my wealth over here. UM.
Speaker 1: But it's just it's just it's it's an open source
Speaker 1: piece of code, that's all it is. It can fit
Speaker 1: on a thumb drive and uh and and it's gonna
Speaker 1: it can it can threaten the entire financial establishment. Uh
Speaker 1: and only because it's better, Only because it gives us
Speaker 1: a better option, I think to Michael Saylor's point, you know,
Speaker 1: he's got a lot of eyes on him and board members,
Speaker 1: I don't. I believe in I believe that we should
Speaker 1: have a separation of money and state, and the government
Speaker 1: should not be able to print money at will. I
Speaker 1: think I think that should happen. Uh. And I'm I'm
Speaker 1: I'm okay saying that, um, and not not that it
Speaker 1: should be attacked. The collapse of the financials so that
Speaker 1: we have today is going to be difficult for a
Speaker 1: lot of people, and I don't I don't wish that
Speaker 1: on anybody. UM. I want to offload as many people
Speaker 1: into the life rafts as we possibly can, which is
Speaker 1: which is why we're doing it, I know. I mean
Speaker 1: sometimes I compare this to Noah's ark. I'm religious, so
Speaker 1: that's why it resonates with me. But it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: we're trying to get as many people on this ship
Speaker 1: because the system is collapsing on its own. I mean,
Speaker 1: if if you're looking at what it will cost to
Speaker 1: live and what the dollar will be worth in the
Speaker 1: next ten twenty years. It's a pretty scary picture, I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can try to, you know, go ahead
Speaker 1: and play the stock market, but who knows what will happen.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there will be a pop at some point.
Speaker 1: I just think that bitcoin is that that arc that
Speaker 1: can usher us into this new digital era of saving
Speaker 1: and maybe kind of recalibrating the global economy on sound money.
Speaker 1: I mean, can you even envision a future and none
Speaker 1: of us have really lived in it right where interest
Speaker 1: rates are based on price signals, supply and demand, as
Speaker 1: opposed to manipulated and artificially lowered so that you you,
Speaker 1: you know, you misappropriate capital. I would love to see
Speaker 1: a world like that, Like what would it look like,
Speaker 1: what it would wealth distribution be more equal? I know
Speaker 1: that the world is not going to be, you know,
Speaker 1: perfect and equal, but I don't want it to be.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be this big blob of humanity
Speaker 1: that's all the same. I wanted to be based on
Speaker 1: competition and some there will be winners and there will
Speaker 1: be losers, but I think everyone should have fair access
Speaker 1: in a free market to kind of prove themselves through
Speaker 1: their goods and services. And I don't know what that
Speaker 1: world looks like right now because the government has just
Speaker 1: ballooned bigger and bigger, bigger and intervened more and they just, um,
Speaker 1: they say that it's necessary, right, But I I see
Speaker 1: it as the problem masquerading as the solution. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean we we can't we can't imagine and when
Speaker 1: we haven't seen it. But I think a little glimpse
Speaker 1: of that is that, um, we get paid for the
Speaker 1: value that we provide. So an entrepreneur, business person, um,
Speaker 1: isn't greedy. Um, they make money by solving your problem
Speaker 1: or your need. That's how they make money, so by
Speaker 1: providing value to the world. But we're in a situation
Speaker 1: today where people are afraid to go create massive value
Speaker 1: for people because the government's going to steal it all.
Speaker 1: And the government doesn't provide any value because they just
Speaker 1: steal all the wealth. And so really there's not like
Speaker 1: going on. Plus, the field money system has created this
Speaker 1: like generation gamble where everyone's trading cryptocurrencies and options trading,
Speaker 1: and that's not providing any value to anybody anyway. It's
Speaker 1: like a net drain. So what if we switched that
Speaker 1: to where people were incentivized to build value and the
Speaker 1: government was also incentivized to provide value to you in
Speaker 1: exchange for your tax revenue. And now instead of nobody
Speaker 1: providing value, the whole world was working together. I mean,
Speaker 1: amazing things could happen. I know, it's it's amazing to
Speaker 1: think about something like that, Like, that's the kind of
Speaker 1: future I want to envision for my kids, as opposed
Speaker 1: to one where we're heading in the direction of just
Speaker 1: more and more government dependency and the government basically saying
Speaker 1: that they're necessary and all these components. Well, no, I
Speaker 1: think I think the free the free market will dictate
Speaker 1: what's best for people, and I would love to live
Speaker 1: in that world. Market. Let's make that happen. Well, I
Speaker 1: think I think we are, you know, uh, we're we're
Speaker 1: obviously trying to usshure that in, you know, as best
Speaker 1: as we can. I think, you know, going back to
Speaker 1: to Noah's Ark, right, I mean, he was building that
Speaker 1: arc for uh was it forty years or whatever. He
Speaker 1: was building the arc and people thought he was just crazy.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, we've been talking about bitcoin for
Speaker 1: years and years and years and people think we're crazy.
Speaker 1: But the rain clouds are starting to form, like people
Speaker 1: are starting to see, like this rain is coming down.
Speaker 1: At a previous segment, I was talking about how the
Speaker 1: FED came out with this article saying that turkey has
Speaker 1: gotten too expensive, you should have to fur key instead.
Speaker 1: And when people are seeing that they can't afford their
Speaker 1: food anymore, um, they're going to realize they need to
Speaker 1: get get into the arc, or at least at least
Speaker 1: get into into the lifeboat. You know. Well, and this
Speaker 1: is where I get angry at my former industry, because
Speaker 1: I saw an NBC report yesterday saying that you know,
Speaker 1: here's one way to battle inflation. Just don't buy a
Speaker 1: turkey or less people will come over, I mean, or
Speaker 1: or you know, get the tofur so soybeans. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it would be it's incumbent upon them to
Speaker 1: actually educate the public on what's causing the inflation and
Speaker 1: be real with people and stop, you know, just encouraging
Speaker 1: the kind of food that feat subsidies are basically causing
Speaker 1: us to go to, which are less nutrition us and
Speaker 1: our diets are poor because of it. Yeah, well that's
Speaker 1: what you and I are here for to help educate people.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mark moss Show. We're talking about bitcoin, cryptocurrencies,
Speaker 1: the decentralized revolution, among with Natalie Brunelle. You can find
Speaker 1: her on Twitter at nat brunel um at one Mark
Speaker 1: Moss Um And that's it. Thanks for listening.