1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: and I'm Holly Frye. We have mentioned the Restoring Truth 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 2: Insanity to American History Executive Order a few times on 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: the show since it was first issued on March twenty 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: seventh of twenty twenty five. That's the executive order stating 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: that the US government's policy is to restore federal sites 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: dedicated to history to quote solemn and uplifting public monuments 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 2: that remind Americans of our extraordinary heritage, consistent progress toward 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: becoming a more perfect union, an unmatched record of advancing liberty, prosperity, 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: and human flourishing. So signs and other materials deemed to 13 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: be in violation of that order started to be removed 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 2: from federally managed sites last year, and the most sweeping changes, 15 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: I think have been at the President's House site at 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 2: Independence National Historical Park in Philadelphia. In May, federally managed 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: sites were given September deadlines to address material that was 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: thought to violate this executive order. At least thirteen pieces 19 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: of information were flagged at the President's House site, When 20 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: the public found out about this, there were protest rallies, 21 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: complaints from tourists, legal filings, there was a resolution from 22 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 2: the Philadelphia City Council that condemned the whitewashing and suppressing 23 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: of history, and at least to the public, it seemed 24 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 2: like the administration had backed off after all of this pushback, 25 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: but then workers showed up without notice on January twenty 26 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: second of twenty twenty six They disabled the video screens 27 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: at the site and they took down all of the displays, 28 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: so not just the ones that had those piece of 29 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 2: information that had been fagged. Everything was taken down. So 30 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: February sixteenth of this year was the Washington's Birthday federal 31 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: holiday also called President's Day, and on that day, Federal 32 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: District Court Judge Cynthia Roof ordered that the site be 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:24,279 Speaker 2: restored by that Friday, February twentieth. This episode was completely 34 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 2: written but not recorded yet when she made that decision, 35 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: so I have been revising it every day since then. 36 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: It feels like long story short. As of February twenty fourth, 37 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: four of the five video monitors at the site are 38 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: working again, and the one that is not working was 39 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: not working before There are also two types of signs 40 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: at the President's house. One is illustrated glass panels that 41 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: have like a brief quote or explanatory text, and the 42 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: others are metal panels that are a lot more text heavy. 43 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: All but one of the glass pan panels are back up. 44 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 2: The one that's not up needs repairs to its mounting bolts. 45 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: But most of the metal panels, which are the ones 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: that contain the most factual detail, are not back up. 47 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: They were not really removable, and some of them were 48 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: pried off with crowbars, so now there's a whole process 49 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: that is required to get them mounted again. 50 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: I am not an. 51 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: Expert, but I think this would be hard to do 52 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: in the middle of the winter. We have had repeated 53 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: snowstorms and blizzards where I live and also in Philadelphia 54 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: over the last couple of months, and there are adhesives 55 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: that have to cure to get these things back in place. 56 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: So Judge Thomas Hardiman of the Third Circuit Court granted 57 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: a partial stay, saying that these signs that are not 58 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: back up don't need to be put back up at 59 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: this time, but what is already back up needs to 60 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: stay there. And then the government's appeal of Roof's decision 61 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: is ongoing. So today's episode was inspired by the material 62 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: that was removed from the President's House site about slavery 63 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: and the people who were enslaved there, including the cook hercules. 64 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: We are also going to talk about how this site 65 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: became part of a national park and became the first 66 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 2: official slavery memorial on federal property. 67 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 1: After the US Constitution went into effect in seventeen eighty nine, 68 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: the federal government briefly operated out of New York City. Then, 69 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: on July sixteenth, seventeen ninety, after intense debate and compromise, 70 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: President George Washington signed the Residence Act, which established a 71 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: site on the Potomac River as the permanent home for 72 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: the nation's capital. That would of course become Washington, d c. 73 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: The Act also designated Philadelphia as the temporary capital. It 74 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: would be that for ten years while the permanent capital 75 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: was being built. 76 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: The Philadelphia County Courthouse had been completed the year before 77 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: that became Congress Hall, where the Senate and the House 78 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: of Representatives met. Philadelphia City Hall, which was also basically 79 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: brand new house. The Supreme Court and then the Executive 80 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: Branch was headquartered in a three story mansion known as 81 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: the Robert Morris House, named for the financier who had 82 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: owned it and lived in it until offering it for 83 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: the president's use. Presidents George Washington and John Adams and 84 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 2: their families lived and conducted executive branch business in this house. 85 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: Washington and Adams both had household and personal staff at 86 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: the President's House, and for George Washington that included nine 87 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: enslaved people that we know of. Their names were Christopher Shiels, Giles, Onna, Judge, Austin, 88 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: Paris Mall, Joe Richardson, Hercules, and Hercules's son Richmond. At 89 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: this point, George Washington did not break up enslaved families 90 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: by selling people away from one another, but the people 91 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: that he took to the President's House were separated from 92 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: family and friends at his Virginia home of Mount Vernon 93 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: for months at a time. 94 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: In April of seventeen ninety one, while George Washington was 95 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: on a tour of the Southern States, US Attorney General 96 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: Edmund Randolph came to the President's house and told First 97 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 2: Lady Martha Washington that three of his enslaved staff had 98 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: claimed their freedom under Pennsylvania's Gradual Abolition Act of seventeen eighty. 99 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: Randolph said he thought it was possible that some of 100 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 2: Washington's staff might try to do the same thing. The 101 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: law had a provision freeing enslaved people who were brought 102 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: into Pennsylvania by non residents after they had been there 103 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: for six months. Washington's chief secretary, Tobias Lear, wrote to 104 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 2: him about this conversation and asked for direction on what 105 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: to do. Washington wrote back, saying he'd had a conversation 106 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,039 Speaker 2: with Randolph about this, and he thought they were in 107 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: slightly different situations. Randolph had taken an oath of citizenship 108 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania to practice law there, while Washington's residence in 109 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: the Commonwealth was incidental as an officer of the government. 110 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: Washington said he was not sure how this would affect 111 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: the situation, and that leers should quote take the best 112 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: advice you can on the subject. If according to that advice, 113 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: it would be possible for Washington's enslave staff to be 114 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: free after six months, they should be sent back to 115 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 2: Mount Vernon ahead of that deadline, unless Martha Washington chose 116 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: to keep them in Philadelphia. Washington went on to say, quote, 117 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: at any rate it might, if they conceived they had 118 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: a right to it, make them insolent in a state 119 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: of slavery. As all except Hercules and Paris are dower negroes, 120 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: it behooves me to prevent the emancipation of them, Otherwise 121 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: I shall not only lose the use of them, but 122 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: may have them to pay for So. 123 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: That term dour references the fact that most of the 124 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: enslaved people who were with them in Philadelphia were part 125 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: of the estate of Martha's late first husband, Daniel Parke Custis. 126 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 1: Custis had died intestate and his estate was being held 127 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: in trust for his children, with Martha allowed to use 128 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: some of its value for as long as she lived. 129 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: The Custis estate included almost three hundred enslaved Africans, so 130 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: what Washington was saying was that if anyone who was 131 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: part of the Custis estate was freed because of his actions, 132 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: he would lose their labor, and he would have to 133 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: compensate the estate for their loss. 134 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: In this letter, Washington went on to say, quote, if 135 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: upon taking good advice, it is found expedient to send 136 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,479 Speaker 2: them back to Virginia, I wish to have it accomplished 137 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: under pretext that may deceive both them and the public. 138 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,479 Speaker 2: Later in the letter, he again stressed the need for secrecy, 139 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 2: saying quote, I request that these sent and this advice 140 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: may be known to none but yourself and Missus Washington. 141 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: Oh George. 142 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: They were not really expecting that people would be reading 143 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: everything the President wrote in the future when he wrote 144 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: that down, I don't think. 145 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like the idea of writing a letter that's like, hey, 146 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: keep this on the DL, not knowing. 147 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: Not just keep it on the DL, but like literally 148 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 2: deceive everyone. 149 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's kind of what I mean. But yes, 150 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: let's let's not We're gonna FIBURUNI this one. Everybody'd be 151 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: cool not knowing that we would all read a whole 152 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: of this, like, oh George. So it was true that 153 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: Attorney General Randolph and President Washington were in different situations. 154 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: When Randolph became a citizen of Pennsylvania, the enslaved people 155 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: he had brought with him from Virginia were freed because 156 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania citizens could only own registered Pennsylvania enslaved people, which 157 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: the people he was enslaving were not. For Washington, the 158 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: issue was that six month limit, which his incidental residence 159 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania did not exempt him from. 160 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 2: For the most part, Washington dealt with this limit by 161 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: having his enslaved staff leave or be taken from Pennsylvania periodically. 162 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: They could travel with him or the First Lady. They 163 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 2: could be sent on errands across the river in New Jersey, 164 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: or they could be entrusted to travel back and forth 165 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 2: to Mount Vernon on business for the President. That was 166 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: the case for Austin, who died as a result of 167 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: this work. In December of seventeen ninety four. He had 168 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 2: some kind of an accident while crossing a river in Maryland. 169 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: He fell from his horse, and he later died of 170 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: his injuries. He was survived by a wife and five children, Billy, Timothy, Elvie, Jenny, 171 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: and Eliza. He was also on a judge's half brother. 172 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: One person was also sent back to Mount Vernon permanently. 173 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: That was Christopher Shields, who knew how to read, and 174 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: he was back at Mount Vernon by j January of 175 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: seventeen ninety two. It's possible that the Washingtons were concerned 176 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: that his literacy made it more likely that he would 177 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: learn about the gradual abolition law if he stayed in 178 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: Philadelphia over the course of his presidency, Washington also replaced 179 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: some of the enslaved workers in Philadelphia with white, indentured 180 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: servants who were unaffected by that abolition law. 181 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: One of the people who was periodically cycled out of 182 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 2: Philadelphia was Hercules, Washington's cook, and we will talk about 183 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: him after a sponsor break. We don't know exactly when 184 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: George Washington's enslaved cook, Hercules was born. According to his 185 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: New York City death record, he was sixty five when 186 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: he died in eighteen twelve, so that would have put 187 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 2: his birth in seventeen forty seven. Hercules was enslaved by 188 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 2: Washington's neighbor, John Poe, and some of the later records 189 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: of Hercules' life give his name as Hercules Posey. 190 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: John Posey was in debt to George Washington, and in 191 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: seventeen sixty nine he gave Washington twenty six people as 192 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: a repayment of those debts. One of them was Hercules, 193 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: who would have been in his late teens or maybe 194 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: twenty years old at that point. He is known to 195 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: have piloted a barge that Posey operated across the Potomac River, 196 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: and then to have trained under the other enslaved kitchen 197 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: staff at Mount Vernon. 198 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: Hercules married a woman named Alice, who was part of 199 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 2: the Custis estate. They had three children, Richmond in seventeen 200 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: seventy seven, Eve in seventeen eighty two, and Delia in 201 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: seventeen eighty five. Of course, this marriage was not legally recognized, 202 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: and since Alice was part of the Custis estate, that 203 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: meant Richmond, Eve, and Delia were all considered to belong 204 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: to the estate as well. 205 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: Alice died in seventeen eighty seven and in nine Hercules 206 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 1: was taken to Philadelphia to work as the cook in 207 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: the President's House. He asked to bring eleven year old 208 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: Richmond with him, but his daughters, who would have been 209 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: about eight and five, stayed behind at Mount Vernon. At 210 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: the President's house, Richmond did things like scullery work in 211 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: the kitchen, cleaning the chimneys, and running errands. 212 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: Living at the President's house would have been really crowded 213 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: and without much privacy. The President's family included the first 214 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 2: Lady and two of her grandchildren who the Washingtons were raising. 215 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 2: There were also other enslaved staff who we've already talked about, 216 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: and about fifteen free white servants, and also Washington's office staff, 217 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: including Tobias Lear and his wife. They all lived there. 218 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 2: A smokehouse was extended to create a slave quarters for 219 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: the men who worked in the stables, and they probably 220 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: had like the most room and living space of all 221 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: the enslaved workers. Mal who mostly looked after the grandchildren, 222 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: and Ona, who was Martha's maid, probably slept on mats 223 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: in the children's rooms by their beds. Hercules and Richmond 224 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 2: probably shared a space in the attic which had been 225 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 2: divided for the men. One side of the attic was 226 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: for enslaved black servants and the other was for free 227 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: white servants who lived on site. Christopher Shields probably also 228 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: lived in the attic while he was there. 229 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: As for Hercules' work, it went way beyond just cooking. 230 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: He managed everyone who worked in the kitchen, including both 231 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: enslaved and free servants. He planned the menus, and he 232 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: made the arrangements for acquiring all the ingredients for official dinners, 233 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: especially these could be huge, elaborate, multi course meals. He 234 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: developed relationships with the farmers, the butchers, spice sellers, merchants 235 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: and the like in Philadelphia, many of whom would have 236 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: been free black people. At this point, there were far 237 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: more free than enslaved people among philadelai His black population, 238 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: and he was connected to basically anyone in the food chain. 239 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: In general, Hercules and other enslaved cooks had an enormous 240 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: influence on the development of American cuisine. 241 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: Hercules role and the Washington's trust in him afforded him 242 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: some privileges. He was allowed to sell the leftovers also 243 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: called slop from the kitchen, and he got to keep 244 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: the money. Martha Washington's grandson, George Washington Park Custis, wrote 245 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: a biography of the first President, and in it he 246 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: said that Hercules earned between one hundred and two hundred 247 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: dollars a year doing this, and that he spent most 248 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: of it on fine clothing. He wrote, quote and making 249 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: his toilet. His linen was of unexceptionable whiteness and quality. 250 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: Then black silk shorts, ditto waistcoat, ditto stockings, shoes highly 251 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: polished with large buckles covering a considerable part of the foot. 252 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,359 Speaker 2: Blue cloth coat with velvet collar and bright metal buttons. 253 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: A long watchchain dangling from his fob, A cocked hat, 254 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: a gold headed cane completed the grand costume of the 255 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: celebrated dandy, for there were dandies in those days of 256 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: the President's kitchen. During his off hours, Hercules wore those 257 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: clothes around town. Again, in Custus's words, quote, many were 258 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: not a little surprised on beholdings so extraordinary a personage, 259 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: while others who knew him would make a formal and 260 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: respectful bow that they might receive in return the salute 261 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 2: of one of the most polished gentlemen and the various 262 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: dandy of nearly sixty years ago. Custus described Hercules as 263 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 2: quote highly accomplished, a proficient and the culinary art as 264 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: could be found in the United States. He went on 265 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: to say, quote, the chief cook gloried in the cleanliness 266 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: and nicety of his kitchen under his iron discipline. Woe 267 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: to his underlings if speck or spot could be discovered 268 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: on the table or dressers, or if the utensils did 269 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: not shine like polished silver. With the luckless whites who 270 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: had offended in these particulars, there was no arrest of punishment, 271 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: for judgment and execution went hand in hand. The steward, 272 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: and indeed the whole household treated the chief cook with 273 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 2: much respect as well for his valuable services as for 274 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: his general good character and pleasing manners. In May of 275 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: seventeen ninety one, so about six weeks after George Washington 276 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 2: and Tobias Lear discussed what to do about the Gradual 277 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: Abolition Law, Washington was preparing to return to Mount Vernon 278 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 2: for the summer. Enslaved people from the President's house were 279 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: being sent ahead to prepare for his arrival and to 280 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 2: skirt that six month provision in the law. On June fifth, 281 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 2: Tobias Lear wrote Washington a letter saying that someone had 282 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: insinuated to Hercules that the reason he was being sent 283 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: to Mount Vernon so early was to keep him from 284 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: spending six months in Pennsylvania and securing his freedom. So 285 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 2: Hercules was upset about this. To quote from the letter, quote, 286 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 2: he appeared to be extremely unhappy, and although he made 287 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: not the least objection to going, yet he said he 288 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: was mortified to the last degree to think that a 289 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: suspicion could be entertained of his fidelity or attachment to you. 290 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 2: And so much did the poor fellow's feelings appear to 291 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 2: be touched that it left no doubt of his sincerity, 292 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: and to show him that there were no apprehensions of 293 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 2: that kind entertained of him. Missus Washington told him he 294 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 2: should not go at that time, but might remain till 295 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: the expiration of six months and then go home to 296 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 2: prepare for your arrival there. He has accordingly continued here 297 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: till this time, and tomorrow takes his departure for Virginia. 298 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: Staying beyond this six month window would have made Hercules 299 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 2: eligible for freedom, but it doesn't appear that he pursued it. 300 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: There are many possible reasons for this. One may have 301 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: been it would have separated him from his children, who 302 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 2: at that point were six, nine and twelve years old. 303 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: So Hercules and his son Richmond continued to work at 304 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: the President's house, with regular trips back to Mount Vernon 305 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 2: or elsewhere, so they weren't there for more than six months. Then, 306 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: in the summer of seventeen ninety six, Richmond was accused 307 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: of stealing money from a white servant named James Wilkes 308 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 2: at Mount Vernon. There doesn't seem to be a surviving 309 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 2: account of exactly what happened, but Wilkes was paid seven 310 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: dollars from the household accounts to reimburse him Washington wrote 311 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: a letter to William Pearce, the farm manager at Mount Vernon, 312 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: that said quote, I hope Richmond was made an example 313 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 2: of for the robbery he committed on Wilkes's saddlebags. I 314 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: wish he may not have been put upon it by 315 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: his father, although I never had any suspicion of the 316 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 2: honest of the latter. For the purpose of a journey together, 317 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: this will make a watch without its being suspected by 318 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: or intimated to them necessary. After this, Hercules and Richmond 319 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 2: both remained at Mount Vernon rather than being taken back 320 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: to Philadelphia. They were also effectively demoted from the work 321 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: they had been doing in the kitchen and the house 322 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 2: to doing physical labor outside. A few months later, on 323 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: February twenty second, seventeen ninety seven, which was George Washington's birthday, 324 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: Hercules liberated himself from slavery and escaped from Mount Vernon. 325 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: Washington tried to have him found, including questioning people or 326 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 2: having people questioned around Philadelphia about his disappearance. They logically 327 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 2: thought he might have gone there to try to secure 328 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 2: his freedom. Apparently, the loss of Hercules was so grievous 329 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: that Washington considered purchasing someone else to replace him, even 330 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 2: though this happened after a September ninth, seventeen eighty six 331 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: left to John Mercer, in which Washington said he did 332 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: not mean to quote possess another slave by purchase, and 333 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: said that he had wanted some plan by which slavery 334 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: could be abolished. Washington did include a parenthetical unless some 335 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 2: particular circumstance should compel me to do it, So maybe 336 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 2: the loss of Hercules counted as particular circumstance. Regardless, visitors 337 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 2: to the President's House and Mount Vernon after this remarked 338 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: that the food was not as good, or having a 339 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 2: meal that was particularly delicious somewhere else said that Hercules 340 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: might have prepared it. In seventeen ninety seven, Louis Philippe, 341 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: future King of France, also visited Mount Vernon, and one 342 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 2: of his servants asked one of Hercules's daughters if she 343 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 2: was upset that she would never see her father again, 344 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 2: and she reportedly answered him quote, no, sir, I'm very 345 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 2: glad for he is free now. Hercules eventually moved to 346 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 2: New York, where he lived in an air that's part 347 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: of Chinatown today. He's listed in City directories from eighteen 348 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 2: oh seven, eighteen oh eight, eighteen ten, and eighteen twelve, 349 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: with his occupation listed as laborer and cook. He died 350 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 2: on May fifteenth, eighteen twelve, and was buried at Second 351 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 2: African Burying Ground. 352 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: Hercules was considered a fugitive for the first few years 353 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: after his escape, but by the time of his death 354 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: he had been formally freed. One of the terms of 355 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: George Washington's will was that the one hundred twenty three 356 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: people who were his property would be freed upon Martha's death. 357 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: George Washington died on December fourteenth, seventeen ninety nine. A 358 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: year later, Martha signed a deed of manumission to free 359 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: those one hundred twenty three people, and that went into 360 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: effect on January first of eighteen oh one. And she 361 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: did this because she did not feel safe surrounded by 362 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: more than one hundred enslaved people who would be freed 363 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: if she died. 364 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: Washington's will did not, however, affect any of the people 365 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: who were part of the Custis estate, and that meant 366 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: there were a lot of families who after this had 367 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: some members who were free and others who remained enslaved. 368 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 2: This included Hercules's three children. When Martha died in eighteen 369 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: oh two, her granddaughter, Elizabeth park Custus law inherited Hercules's 370 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 2: son to Richmond, and Eleanor Park Custis inherited his daughters, 371 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: Delia and Eve. 372 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: Hercules was not the only enslaved person to have worked 373 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: at the President's House and escaped from bondage. The other 374 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: was on a Judge, also known as Onie. She escaped 375 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: from the President's House in seventeen ninety six. Washington was 376 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: absolutely furious about this, and he put intense effort into 377 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: trying to find her, since she was part of the 378 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: Custis estate. She was not freed when Hercules was, but 379 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: she also gave interviews in which she said that the 380 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: family didn't really try to bother her anymore after George 381 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: Washington's death. We actually talk more about this in the 382 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: second part of our two part episode on the White 383 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: House at its Legacy, which came out in twenty twenty. 384 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: That episode is a little bit obsolete now because the 385 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: east wing of the White House was demolished in twenty 386 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: twenty five. 387 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 2: There is a striking eighteenth century portrait that for a 388 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: long time everybody thought was of Hercules. It shows a 389 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: black man wearing white, including a tall hat that resembles 390 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: a chef's toque, but more recent research has concluded that 391 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: this is not Hercules, and it's also not a chef's hat. 392 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: Those did not come into use until the eighteen twenties. 393 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: This portrait is most likely the work of British painter 394 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 2: Joshua Reynolds, and it might depict someone from the island 395 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 2: of Dominica who had fled to England before France claimed 396 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 2: that island in seventeen seventy eight. There is at least 397 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 2: one other portrait of someone from Dominica wearing a similar hat. 398 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: Hercules and on a Judge were two of the enslaved 399 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 2: people whose stories have been told at the President's House 400 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: site at Independence National Historical Park. We're going to talk 401 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: more about that after we pause for a sponsor break. 402 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 2: Now we will move on to the story of the 403 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: President's House at Independence National Historical Park. After the end 404 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 2: of George Washington's presidency, his successor, John Adams, and John's 405 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: wife Abigail, who were opposed to slavery, lived at the 406 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 2: President's House in Philadelphia. When Adams and his family and 407 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 2: staff moved out in eighteen hundred. The Robert Morris House 408 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 2: became a hotel. That hotel later closed, and the interior 409 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 2: of the building was gutted in eighteen thirty two. Eventually 410 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: all that was left of it was one wall, which 411 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty seven four an exterior wall of a 412 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: store in what had become a commercial. 413 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: Part of Philadelphia. In nineteen forty eight, Congress passed legislation 414 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: establishing independence National Historical Park quote, for the purpose of preserving, 415 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: for the benefit of the American People, as a National 416 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: Historical Park, certain historical structures and properties of outstanding national 417 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: significance located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and associated with the American 418 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: Revolution and the founding and growth of the United States. 419 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: This legislation also empowered the Secretary of the Interior to 420 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: enter into cooperative agreements with the City of Philadelphia, and 421 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: required these agreements to contain provisions that no changes or 422 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: alterations would be made to the property except by mutual 423 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: agreement of the parties involved. 424 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 2: So it does not seem like anybody realized that any 425 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: of the original Robert Morris House was still standing when 426 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: this happened. So the former site of the President's House 427 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 2: was not included in the initial conservation plans. In nineteen 428 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 2: fifty one, that one remaining wall was demolished, along with 429 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: other structures around it, to create a green space known 430 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: as Independence Mall. A lot of historic buildings are in 431 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 2: this area, including Congress Hall, Old City Hall, and Independence Hall, 432 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 2: where the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were signed. 433 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 2: Franklin Court and the site of Benjamin Franklin's home are 434 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 2: also nearby, and they're part of the park. But in 435 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 2: the midst of all this history, the President's House became 436 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 2: a public restroom. Skipping ahead a little bit, between nineteen 437 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: ninety three and nineteen ninety seven, Independence National Historical Park 438 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,719 Speaker 2: held a series of sixteen public meetings to create a 439 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: general management plan for the park. At these meetings, there 440 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: were not really a lot of calls for the park 441 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: to interpret slavery or the history of Philadelphia's free black community, 442 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: but also the people who came to the meetings were 443 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: mostly white. When the park conducted an ethnographic assessment of 444 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: the communities around it, ethnographer Seth Alowe talked to black 445 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: residents who said they did not feel represented at the 446 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: park and felt they had no cultural connections to it. 447 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 2: Later interviews with visitors to the park also found that 448 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: black visitors generally said the stories that the park was 449 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: telling just weren't relevant to them. Roughly forty percent of 450 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 2: the people living in Philadelphia in the nineteen nineties were black, 451 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 2: and that is still true today. So while Independence National 452 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: Historical Park had a lot of relevance to some parts 453 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: of the nation's history, it really was not connecting to 454 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 2: a significant number of the people in the immediate area. 455 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 2: The master plan that followed these meetings also didn't include 456 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: anything for the President's House. Again, people had thought that 457 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: nothing was left of it when the park was created, 458 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: But then in two thousand and two, Edward Lawler Junior 459 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: published an article about the President's House in the Pennsylvania 460 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: Magazine of History and Biography, including information on people having 461 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: been enslaved at the President's House. The Philadelphia Inquirer reported 462 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 2: on this, and then soon after that there was a 463 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: lot of public awareness of the fact that George Washington 464 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: had brought enslaved people to the President's House. In addition 465 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: to that, the year before, plans had gotten underway to 466 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: build a new site for the Liberty Bell. According to 467 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 2: this newly published research. The entrance to the new Liberty 468 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 2: Bell Center was going to be almost on top of 469 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 2: what had been a slave quarters at the President's House. 470 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: The Liberty Bell, which is symbolic of freedom and independence 471 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 2: and was used as an emblem of the abolition movement, 472 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: practically sitting on top of the slave quarters. 473 00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 474 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: So, at this point people started demanding that the realities 475 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: of slavery be incorporated more fully into Independence National Historical Park. 476 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: The Avenging the Ancestors Coalition was founded to advocate for 477 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: a prominent slavery memorial at the park, one that specifically 478 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: memorialized the people who had been enslaved at the President's House. 479 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: There were protests and petitions and advocacy campaigns. To be 480 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 2: very clear, this was an effort to get the park 481 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 2: to reflect a real, non whitewashed version of history, one 482 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: that was deeply relevant to a lot of the surrounding community, 483 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: not an effort to replace facts with a distorted narrative 484 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 2: or to push a false ideology rather than the truth. 485 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 2: In its report on the two thousand and three appropriations 486 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 2: Bill for the Department of the Interior, the House Appropriations 487 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 2: Committee urged the National Park Service to quote appropriately commemorate 488 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: the concerns raised regarding the recognition of the existence of 489 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: the mansion and the slaves who worked in it during 490 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 2: the first years of our democracy, and it instructed the 491 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: director of the National Park Service to submit a rapport 492 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: detailing the actions taken at the park to address and 493 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: resolve that issue. The people who were working on the 494 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: interpretive signs for the new Liberty Bell Center got some 495 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 2: community input to try to make those signs more inclusive, 496 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: and the park also started working on a plan for 497 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: interpreting the President's House site. That public restroom that had 498 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: been built where the house used to be had been 499 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 2: demolished for the creation of the new Liberty Bell Center, 500 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 2: so the question was what should replace it. This was 501 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: particularly important since people would walk through this area to 502 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: get to the Liberty Bell, and the Liberty Bell got 503 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: an estimated two million visitors a year when the new 504 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: center opened. 505 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,719 Speaker 1: What followed was year of work by historians and other experts, 506 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: with public meetings and public forums and other opportunities for 507 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: transparency and feedback along the way. By two thousand and four, 508 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: preliminary designs for the site included five guiding themes, one 509 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: the House and the people who lived and worked there, 510 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: two the Executive Branch of the US Government. Three the 511 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: system and Methods of Slavery, four African American Philadelphia, and 512 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: five the Move to Freedom. 513 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: Almost two hundred and fifty people representing at least twenty 514 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: seven different organizations, attended a public forum about the site 515 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 2: on October thirtieth, two thousand and four. This was after 516 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 2: many other public meetings and opportunities for input had already happened. 517 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: At this time, there was also an opportunity for public comments, 518 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 2: whether or not somebody was able to attend this specific meeting. 519 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 2: Theme emerged after this public forum and comment period, which 520 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: was History Lost and Found and this theme would explore 521 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: how the presence of slavery at the President's House had 522 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: been lost to public memory and then how it had 523 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 2: been found again. And five cultural values were also established 524 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: to guide work at the site. Those were identity, Memory, agency, dignity, 525 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 2: and truth. In two thousand and five, the Organization of 526 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 2: American Historians and the National Park Service cooperated on a 527 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 2: site review at Independence National Historical Park, with the OAH 528 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: delivering a report on the existing interpretation at the park 529 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: and the future plans. So a lot of this process 530 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: was incredibly contentious. A clear direction forms about the focus 531 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: on slavery, but there were also people who thought the 532 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: site should include more on the architecture of the President's House, 533 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 2: or the achievements of George Washington and John Adams, or 534 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 2: the decisions and the policies that were made in the 535 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 2: first years of the federal government. There were disagreements among 536 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 2: various experts who were part of the project and among 537 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 2: different agencies. All of this was also running alongside ongoing 538 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 2: public activism and involvement. 539 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: Finally, in two thousand and six, the Park Service and 540 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: the City of Philadelphia entered into an agreement specifying that 541 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: the President's House site's focus would be on slavery and freedom, 542 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: including the people who were enslaved there. The Park Service 543 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: also agreed to consult the City of Philadelphia about changes 544 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: to the park in line with the legislation that had 545 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: established Independence National Historical Park in nineteen forty eight. 546 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: The plans that evolved for the President's House site were 547 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 2: much bigger and a lot more expensive than what was 548 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: originally envisioned, especially after archaeological work in two thousand and 549 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 2: seven revealed the remains of the kitchen and other structures 550 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 2: from the house. A decision was made to enclose that 551 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: site under glass so that it could be preserved for 552 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 2: visitors to see. So this involved raising a lot more 553 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 2: money to pay for everything. That money came primarily from 554 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 2: donations and the City of Philadelphia. Construction started in two 555 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 2: thousand and nine, and an exhibit plan was created in 556 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: twenty ten, which was followed by yet another public meeting 557 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: to discuss it. 558 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 1: The President's House site was dedicated in twenty ten. Its 559 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: full title is The President's House, Freedom and Slavery in 560 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: the Making of a New Nation. This is an open 561 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: air site with brick walls, doorframes, and window frames suggesting 562 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: the outline of a structure, and low walls and pavers 563 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: inside suggesting the outlines of the interior rooms. One partially 564 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: enclosed space just before the entrance to the Liberty Bell 565 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: Center also serves as a slavery memorial. It's the first 566 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: official slavery memorial to be created at a federal property. 567 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 2: Interpretive signs and video screens were installed throughout the site 568 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 2: that is included. As we said earlier, metal panels focused 569 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: on things like the slave trade, a timeline of slavery 570 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 2: people who worked and lived at the President's House and 571 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 2: people who visited, so this included enslaved people, indentured people, 572 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: free servants and laborers, ambassadors from other countries, indigenous dignitaries, 573 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 2: and others. There's context on these panels about how many 574 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 2: people were enslaved and how many free black people there 575 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 2: were in seventeen ninety and eighteen hundred. There's also information 576 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 2: about life under slavery and how enslaved people became free. 577 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 2: And there's also, in addition to those metal panels, a 578 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: series of illustrated glass panels depicting notable people and moments 579 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 2: from this era, with quotes and descriptions about them. 580 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: Perhaps unsurprisingly can Seysidering the years of public comment and 581 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: some very heated back and forth, the President's House site 582 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: got some criticism after it was unveiled, like that it 583 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: seemed too scattered and not well grounded in its connection 584 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: to Philadelphia, or that the open air design felt too 585 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 1: abstract without a clear entry point or a strong narrative 586 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: to guide visitors' experiences, that it didn't perfectly match the 587 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: footprint of the original house. There were also some complaints 588 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: that it didn't say enough about John Adams or about 589 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 1: the details of the Executive Branch's activities over the ten 590 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: years that the President lived there, or the indigenous peoples 591 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: whose homeland the house had been built on. 592 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: When I visited the President's House site in December of 593 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, I personally felt like I was sort of 594 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: seeing two different exhibits mixed together, the metal signs, which 595 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 2: were a lot more text based and factual, and then 596 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 2: the illustrated glass panels, which felt almost like they had 597 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 2: come from a separate exhibit. But none of that criticism 598 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: was caused to tear it all down. The President's House 599 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 2: Site was created through years and years of ongoing public 600 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 2: comment and input and advocacy from people who had been 601 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 2: excluded from the stories that the park was telling for decades. 602 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 2: That incorporates the knowledge of historians and researchers and park 603 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 2: staff and designers and architects and other experts who all 604 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 2: worked together to create a public space to interpret the 605 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 2: interconnection between the institution of slavery and the first decade 606 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 2: of the Executive Branch of the federal government. The public 607 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: was deeply engaged with this site all throughout the planning 608 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 2: and the execution, and it was paid for primarily by 609 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 2: private funding in the City of Philadelphia, not by the 610 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 2: federal government, and at multiple steps, the federal government and 611 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 2: the city agreed not to make changes to it without 612 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 2: consulting one another. 613 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: The federal government has argued that the President's House site 614 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: falls outside of the scope of earlier legislation related to 615 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: the park, and that those agreements between the city and 616 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: the federal government have expired meeting, the government no longer 617 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: needs to consult the city on changes. The federal judge 618 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: who ordered the panels to be restored, disagrees with both 619 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: of those points. The government has also claimed that it 620 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: had already been working on new information panels for the site, 621 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: but if that's true, it definitely has not involved the 622 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: kind of public input or transparency that led to the 623 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: initial creation of the site. 624 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 2: The January twenty second removal of the displays provoked outrage 625 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 2: and a lot of official statements from various people and 626 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:53,919 Speaker 2: organizations in Philadelphia and elsewhere. That includes the Independence Hall Association, 627 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 2: the Organization of American Historians, the Preservation Alliance for Greater Philadelphia, 628 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 2: the Filmiladelphia Archaeological Forum, a coalition of forty five different 629 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 2: history and preservation organizations from Philadelphia, really on and on. 630 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 2: There were repeated protests drawing hundreds of people to the 631 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 2: President's House site, and of course there was the legal 632 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 2: action that led to the judge's order to restore the site. 633 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 2: There is still pending litigation on this, so we will 634 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 2: see what happens from this point. 635 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: We're going to close with some of the text that 636 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,439 Speaker 1: was flagged for removal. As we said, there's not one 637 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: specific entry point or pass through the site, but one 638 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: of the history lost in found panels is particularly evocative 639 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: of what the whole site was designed to do and 640 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: the points historians have made in response to the executive 641 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: order targeting history at the National Parks. Quote, history is 642 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: not neat. It is complicated and messy. It is about people, places, 643 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 1: and events that are both admirable and deplorable. Here at 644 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: the of the House, where the first two presidents of 645 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: the United States resided from seventeen ninety to eighteen hundred, 646 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: this definition comes into stark focus. The President's House exposes 647 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: the core contradiction at the founding of this nation, enshrinement 648 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: of liberty and the institution of slavery. 649 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 2: This text goes on to say, quote, while important moments 650 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 2: in the early history of the nation took place here, 651 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 2: slavery casts a shadow over those accomplishments. For many, the 652 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 2: fact that President George Washington transported enslaved Africans to this 653 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 2: house from Mount Vernon, his plantation in Virginia is profoundly disturbing. 654 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 2: As the new federal government embraced the lofty concept of liberty, 655 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,919 Speaker 2: slavery in the President's House, as in the New Nation, 656 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 2: undermined the meaning of freedom and mocked the nation's pretense 657 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 2: to be a beacon of liberty. If we are to 658 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 2: understand how a nation founded on the principle that all 659 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 2: men are create could also somehow embrace and justify slavery, 660 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 2: we must examine the context of this contradiction on the 661 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 2: lives of Americans of every race and condition. The President's 662 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 2: House offers an opportunity to draw lessons from the past 663 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 2: as we examine the present and engage in the future. 664 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 2: In my opinion, that is all eminently reasonable. 665 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: Text. Yeah, uh, do you have an eminently reasonable listener? Mail? 666 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,760 Speaker 2: I have a pretty nice a nice, a nice one 667 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 2: with flowers. I love flowers. Met this is from Yeah, 668 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 2: This is from Katie. Katie wrote, Hello Holly and Tracy, 669 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 2: longtime listener, Finally with a reason to write. And I 670 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 2: enjoy planting and growing heirloom flowers, especially daffodils. One of 671 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 2: my favorite daffodils is named John Evelin. Until your podcast, 672 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 2: I had no idea who John Evelin was. It was 673 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 2: fun to learn something about my daffodil's namesake. See more 674 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,879 Speaker 2: about the daffodil at the link. Attached photo is John 675 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 2: Evelyn growing in my garden. Unfortunately, John Evelyn appears to 676 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 2: be commercially extinct, at least in the US. Thanks Katie, 677 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 2: So we have a picture of just some beautiful, beautiful 678 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 2: flowers in bloom, daffodils with like white outer petals and 679 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,879 Speaker 2: then yellow in the center. So so pretty. This led 680 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 2: me down a rabbit hole about what the difference is 681 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 2: between daffodils and jonquills, because my mother is very fond 682 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 2: of some similar flowers and has always called them junqules. 683 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,839 Speaker 2: And I don't remember now exactly what the difference is, 684 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 2: but I very much appreciated learning that there's a John 685 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 2: Evelyn daffodil and that it's so pretty and happy looking. 686 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 2: I love these flowers because they tend to come up 687 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 2: so early in the spring. A lot of the times 688 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 2: they are the first thing blooming in some of the 689 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 2: places that I have lived, and so you can sort 690 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 2: of come through the dark, snowy, cold winter and then 691 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 2: see pretty yellow flowers poking up from the snow. Sometimes. 692 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: I love it. I have information for you. 693 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 2: Oh, are you gonna tell me about the difference between 694 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 2: junqles and daffodils. 695 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, junkles are just a type of daffodil. 696 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,879 Speaker 2: Okay, that's well, Okay, so. 697 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: They are technically a daffodil. 698 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 2: Great, great, So thank you again Katie for writing this 699 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 2: email and sending this picture. If you would like to 700 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 2: send us a note where at history Podcasts at iHeartRadio 701 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 2: dot com are our show Notes to our episodes, including 702 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 2: this one. You can find on our website, which is 703 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 2: misshistory dot com, and you can subscribe to the show 704 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app or anywhere else you find your podcasts. 705 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 2: Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 706 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:09,399 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 707 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.